@Elizabelle: What is obscene? Pardoning Bannon? Or worse?
5.
Elizabelle
@West of the Rockies: Yeah. He is such a fucking criminal. I hope karma goes medieval on his ass.
6.
NotMax
Open Thread, so –
Requires a bushel of sad trombones
Loews Hotels announced Saturday it would no longer hold a fundraiser for Republican Sen. Josh Hawley in Orlando next month, saying it was horrified by the Capitol insurrection and “all who supported and incited the action.”
The fundraiser, billed as a “fun-filled-family-friendly” weekend in Orlando, was scheduled for Feb. 12-15 by “Fighting for Missouri,” a political action committee.
In a tweet, Loews Hotels said the company is “horrified and opposed” to what happened at the Capitol building, referring to the Jan. 6 insurrection. Source
7.
Elizabelle
@WaterGirl: That he is using a legal instrument meant to provide mercy and justice to protect himself from culpability for his own criminal actions, and for malfeasance performed in service of his own corruption.
8.
CaseyL
Only heard about Bannon so far. But I’ve also heard Shitweasel will release the whole list just as Biden is being inaugurated, so that all the news shows shift over to him. I’d hope they won’t take the bait, but of course they will.
I say leave it. We’re already discussing in this thread; can move on to the next.
12.
Martin
What I know is that a pardon isn’t official until the paperwork is received by the appropriate office, which is almost certainly not going to happen until tomorrow at the earliest. Biden can presumably reverse all of these at noon tomorrow.
Yes, there’s precedent for this. Dubya revoked one of his own pardons when it was revealed it was paid for.
13.
Elizabelle
@Martin: That’s interesting, about the timing and W pulling a pardon.
14.
hitchhiker
This is the last time we’ll have to care what bugfuckery trump gets up to. The last time it matters to anyone but him what direction he waves his dick in. Fuck him.
Tomorrow will be all Biden.
The next day will be all Biden.
After tonight, if trump is in the news it will be because he’s being tried in the Senate for inciting a riot, or required to supply DNA to one of his sexual assault victims, or indicted in NY State for fraud, or any of a zillion other stories about his personal wrongdoing.
For now, reporters are still blabbing about his pardons and it feels like they’re stuck in the mud for one final night. It’s been a gross spectacle every day of the last 4 years, and it’s a gross spectacle right now.
@Martin: Besides the pardon paperwork having to be received by the appropriate office, I believe that there has to be a formal acceptance of a pardon in order for a pardon to be final.
What are the chances that they will have done everything properly?
16.
Jerzy Russian
For some reason, I have “Pardon me George” as sung by Mark Russell going through my head. I saw this on PBS sometime after George H. W. Bush pardoned most (all?) of those convicted in Iran Contra (or similar scandal).
Some speculation that the Bannon pardon makes it more likely Trump will be convicted of impeachment. McConnell despises Bannon.
Bannon will probably face the FBI over the capitol attack since it seems he helped organize it.
18.
Martin
@Elizabelle: Yeah, you shouldn’t wait until the last minute for this reason. Do it at least a week out.
19.
Martin
@Elizabelle: ‘Individual 1’ is an excellent substitute.
20.
Elizabelle
That was the first time I have ever heard Steve Bannon’s voice. (Clip of him on a radio program.)
Maybe the last, too.
21.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Pardon list includes all of Adam Sandler’s movies.
22.
Elizabelle
List just arrived.
Elliot Broidy on the list.
23.
NotMax
From the event horizon of the memory hole.
“Steve Bannon has nothing to do with me or my presidency,” Trump said in a statement released by the White House.
“When he was fired, he not only lost his job, he lost his mind. Steve was a staffer who worked for me after I had already won the nomination by defeating 17 candidates, often described as the most talented field ever assembled in the Republican party.” Source
24.
Elizabelle
I wonder if it can eventually be proved Trump gave some of these pardons in exchange for money or support in the future.
25.
Elizabelle
No Trump family members on the list, nor Giuliani.
But MSNBC reminds: still 11 hours left of the Trump show.
@Elizabelle: I was hoping the remaining attorneys would have made themselves unavailable this evening, after (supposedly) talking Trump out of pardoning himself and the kids.
If there’s no one there to write it up, what would Trump do
edit: but I guess it doesn’t matter, since the attorneys obviously didn’t split.
@NotMax: coffee boy. there have been so many of them.
28.
Elizabelle
MSNBC says they’ll air Joy Reid’s interview with Nancy Smash after this commercial break. Great.
@WaterGirl: Trump wants to be Henry VIII. (Albeit, Henry’s victims got trials — kangaroo courts — but he glossed his persecutions with a veneer of legality.) Trump missed his century. How sad he was rewarded for his hideousness with the presidency in ours.
The White House had planned to release the list of those granted clemency earlier on Tuesday, but the debate over Mr. Bannon, who publicly encouraged Mr. Trump to fight the certification of the 2020 election results, was part of the delay, officials said.
By late afternoon on Tuesday, advisers believed they had kept a pardon for Mr. Bannon from happening. But by around 9 p.m., Mr. Trump had changed his mind once again. Mr. Trump and Mr. Bannon spoke by phone during the day as the president was weighing the pardon, and Mr. Bannon’s allies tried to apply pressure to make it happen while his detractors pushed the president not to go ahead with it.
So maybe Trump and his spawn will end up on a list, later.
The dogs want to know why the heck we aren’t in bed, but I am wound up.
37.
Shalimar
@Elizabelle: Trump has the flight down to Florida to contemplate his future persecution. All possible pardons are still open until Biden takes the oath.
38.
Shalimar
@dr. luba: If you’re famous for being corrupt, Trump admires you.
39.
Wolvesvalley
How do you like the statement supporting the pardon of Paul Erikson, one of the guys Mueller sent to prison:
Paul Erickson– President Trump has issued a full pardon to Paul Erikson. This pardon is supported by Kellyanne Conway. Mr. Erickson’s conviction was based off the Russian collusion hoax. After finding no grounds to charge him with any crimes with respect to connections with Russia, he was charged with a minor financial crime. Although the Department of Justice sought a lesser sentence, Mr. Erickson was sentenced to 7 years’ imprisonment—nearly double the Department of Justice’s recommended maximum sentence. This pardon helps right the wrongs of what has been revealed to be perhaps the greatest witch hunt in American History.
40.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: History will regard Al Capone as a better man than Trump.
Less of a body count. More genuine concern for the poor than Dumpster Trump ever showed. A gangster and murderer and felon, yes. But his damage was more limited.
I was intimating Dolt 45 will pardon Capone. Professional courtesy, don’tcha know.
;)
45.
Kent
Has anyone been pardoned yet who hasn’t already actually been indicted or convicted? Any Giuliani types who you know are guilty as hell but haven’t actually been indicted yet
Also has ANYONE been granted a pardon who actually deserved it? Who would have passed through the normal pardon office review and came out on the top of the list?
46.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Ah. LOL. Wondering who else is on that list of deplorables.
47.
Kent
@Shalimar:@Elizabelle: Trump has the flight down to Florida to contemplate his future persecution. All possible pardons are still open until Biden takes the oath.
Someone should set the clocks on Air Force 1 to Central Time so he thinks he still has time but doesn’t. Heh.
Sorry Mr. Trump. It is 12:30 pm. You are no longer president. Bit of a mix-up with the clocks.. Sorry about that.
48.
Mary G
@dr. luba: I put this in the next thread, but I guess it belongs here, no pardon for tiger guy Joe Exotic, despite this hideous ride he had waiting for him:
No joke — the limo is waiting for Joe Exotic if he gets a pardon from Trump. We’re a laughingstock the world over…pic.twitter.com/CNKwqFQk7M— Rex Chapman?? (@RexChapman) January 19, 2021
@Martin: Besides the pardon paperwork having to be received by the appropriate office, I believe that there has to be a formal acceptance of a pardon in order for a pardon to be final.
What are the chances that they will have done everything properly?
I don’t think this is true. I think if Trump signs a pardon on a cocktail napkin with a crayon on 11:59 a.m. it is still valid. Especially if there are witnesses. There is nothing in the constitution about receipt by the pardon office or whatever. Obviously it would be challenged in court as it probably has never been litigated.
The full list. Quite a few “supported by Governor Kristi Noem ”
Caveat: Take the location the link brings you to into account when it comes to ascertaining objectivity of the descriptions therein.
51.
Eolirin
@Kent: The question is not whether the pardon is valid, it is. The question is whether the prisoner has been freed and whether the pardon can be rescinded before he is freed, or as a procedural matter, whether the pardon is processed by whoever needs to process it for the effects of it to take place. This actually has been litigated, and can be done, though the Supreme Court isn’t beholden to precedent.
My understanding is that Grant was able to stop pardons that Johnson put into place, because the warden sat on them long enough for him to take office. And that he won the court case over it. The president is allowed to rescind pardons that haven’t been carried out yet, and it doesn’t matter if it’s a different president.
52.
Kent
Question for the attorneys here. You can’t pardon yourself out of paying taxes can you?
I suppose one can pardon someone for a conviction for tax evasion. But that doesn’t erase the tax debt does it?
I don’t see Bannon’s co-defendants on the list, so someone has a date with the grand jury.
He also pardoned Duke Cunningham….though Dennis Hastert seems to have missed the cut
54.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Thank you. Will read over the list. Um, thank you, I guess ….
55.
Elizabelle
On the pardons list: Rick Renzi, former GOP congressweasel.
56.
Kent
Not included on the White House’s clemency list: Julian Assange, Edward Snowden, Rudy Giuliani, any of the Trumps, or the Tiger King
Trump did give a pardon to Robert Bowker, with the support of his late brother Robert Trump, who got caught in a cobras for alligators scheme— Meridith McGraw (@meridithmcgraw) January 20, 2021
For real. A cobras for alligators scheme….From the official White House statement
Robert Bowker – President Trump granted a full pardon to Robert Bowker. Mr. Bowker’s pardon is supported by Ann Marie Pallan, Sherriff Butch Anderson, and the late Robert Trump. Nearly 30 years ago, Mr. Bowker pled guilty to a violation the Lacey Act, which prohibits trafficking in wildlife, when he arranged for 22 snakes owned by Rudy “Cobra King” Komarek to be transported to the Miami Serpentarium. Although he did not ask for any animals in return, he was offered 22 American alligators. After pleading guilty, Mr. Bowker was sentenced to probation. Mr. Bowker has dedicated resources to animal conservation efforts in the intervening decades, including as a member of the Humane Society of the United States, World Wildlife Fund, and Wildlife Conservation Society.
@NotMax: It seemed a lot of pardons for fraud and business-related convictions. Probably an easyish argument to the Criminal in Chief.
I was happy to see so many meritorious pardons; people who received too long a sentence; marijuana convictions, etc. Some “little people”, whose petitioners were their family.
It was notable how many of the pardons were at the request of Republican politicians and hangers on. There was one endorsed by the late John Lewis (another secular saint).
Yup. There is no way the one listed as supported by Tuberville could possibly have traveled through standard channels.
66.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Let’s keep an eye out for reporting on that. You know there is interest in how these pardons came about.
Should try to sleep a bit. Will give that a try. Ciao for now!
67.
karen marie
@Martin: i have a add-on that does that – changes T***p to “Individual1” – and another that changes photos of him, and his family, into pictures of kittens. Oddly, neither work on twitter content.
68.
ian
Some poor dude on that list has the last name Harkonen.
What I’m waiting on is a rundown from those in a position to know of how many came over the transom, bypassing the DOJ pardon office and process.
“All of them, Katie.”
My WAG is that no more than a handful went through the pardon office. I’m sure he and whichever aides of his haven’t already jumped his sinking ship came up with their own ‘process.’
Anyway, I’ll worry about that another day. Less than eight hours to go, thank the Lord.
The way that pardon reads, he’s pardoned for shady financial dealings, but he may still be investigated for involvement in the Russian collusion “hoax”, which the pardon specifically states does not exist since it’s (supposedly) a hoax. Good luck with that Paul.
I don’t see Bannon’s co-defendants on the list, so someone has a date with the grand jury.
Being a co-defendant of someone with a pardon seems to be a terrible place to be. He has to tell the whole truth without fifth amendment protections. Any less that the whole truth and he would certainly be indicted for perjury, the only way he can still get charged. So he will definitely rat you out.
73.
trnc
Share what you know.
74.
DaveInOz
I still can’t believe he hasn’t pardoned close family. If this really is the case Jared is in a whole heap of trouble.
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Elizabelle
I think this is just obscene.
Fuck Trump. I will never call that asshole “President.” Never have. Never will.
West of the Rockies
Bannon is a sunburnt, scabby, alcoholic. He looks unwell.
West of the Rockies
@Elizabelle: Obscene but utterly unsurprising, no?
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: What is obscene? Pardoning Bannon? Or worse?
Elizabelle
@West of the Rockies: Yeah. He is such a fucking criminal. I hope karma goes medieval on his ass.
NotMax
Open Thread, so –
Requires a bushel of sad trombones
Elizabelle
@WaterGirl: That he is using a legal instrument meant to provide mercy and justice to protect himself from culpability for his own criminal actions, and for malfeasance performed in service of his own corruption.
CaseyL
Only heard about Bannon so far. But I’ve also heard Shitweasel will release the whole list just as Biden is being inaugurated, so that all the news shows shift over to him. I’d hope they won’t take the bait, but of course they will.
WaterGirl
Anne Laurie just put a post up. If you guys want to talk pardons there, I can pull this one.
NotMax
Elizabelle
You and Joy (plus multitudes).
Elizabelle
I say leave it. We’re already discussing in this thread; can move on to the next.
Martin
What I know is that a pardon isn’t official until the paperwork is received by the appropriate office, which is almost certainly not going to happen until tomorrow at the earliest. Biden can presumably reverse all of these at noon tomorrow.
Yes, there’s precedent for this. Dubya revoked one of his own pardons when it was revealed it was paid for.
Elizabelle
@Martin: That’s interesting, about the timing and W pulling a pardon.
hitchhiker
This is the last time we’ll have to care what bugfuckery trump gets up to. The last time it matters to anyone but him what direction he waves his dick in. Fuck him.
Tomorrow will be all Biden.
The next day will be all Biden.
After tonight, if trump is in the news it will be because he’s being tried in the Senate for inciting a riot, or required to supply DNA to one of his sexual assault victims, or indicted in NY State for fraud, or any of a zillion other stories about his personal wrongdoing.
For now, reporters are still blabbing about his pardons and it feels like they’re stuck in the mud for one final night. It’s been a gross spectacle every day of the last 4 years, and it’s a gross spectacle right now.
Fuck. That. Guy.
WaterGirl
@Martin: Besides the pardon paperwork having to be received by the appropriate office, I believe that there has to be a formal acceptance of a pardon in order for a pardon to be final.
What are the chances that they will have done everything properly?
Jerzy Russian
For some reason, I have “Pardon me George” as sung by Mark Russell going through my head. I saw this on PBS sometime after George H. W. Bush pardoned most (all?) of those convicted in Iran Contra (or similar scandal).
Martin
@CaseyL: Also Broidy.
Some speculation that the Bannon pardon makes it more likely Trump will be convicted of impeachment. McConnell despises Bannon.
Bannon will probably face the FBI over the capitol attack since it seems he helped organize it.
Martin
@Elizabelle: Yeah, you shouldn’t wait until the last minute for this reason. Do it at least a week out.
Martin
@Elizabelle: ‘Individual 1’ is an excellent substitute.
Elizabelle
That was the first time I have ever heard Steve Bannon’s voice. (Clip of him on a radio program.)
Maybe the last, too.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Pardon list includes all of Adam Sandler’s movies.
Elizabelle
List just arrived.
Elliot Broidy on the list.
NotMax
From the event horizon of the memory hole.
Elizabelle
I wonder if it can eventually be proved Trump gave some of these pardons in exchange for money or support in the future.
Elizabelle
No Trump family members on the list, nor Giuliani.
But MSNBC reminds: still 11 hours left of the Trump show.
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: I was hoping the remaining attorneys would have made themselves unavailable this evening, after (supposedly) talking Trump out of pardoning himself and the kids.
If there’s no one there to write it up, what would Trump do
edit: but I guess it doesn’t matter, since the attorneys obviously didn’t split.
WaterGirl
@NotMax: coffee boy. there have been so many of them.
Elizabelle
MSNBC says they’ll air Joy Reid’s interview with Nancy Smash after this commercial break. Great.
@WaterGirl: Trump wants to be Henry VIII. (Albeit, Henry’s victims got trials — kangaroo courts — but he glossed his persecutions with a veneer of legality.) Trump missed his century. How sad he was rewarded for his hideousness with the presidency in ours.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
“Alas, Covfefe, we hardly knew ye.”
//
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: I came in at 12:04, not sure what I missed, but I started recording. thanks for the tip.
WaterGirl
@NotMax: So that’s what it means!
Elizabelle
NY Times reporting:
So maybe Trump and his spawn will end up on a list, later.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
Before or after Al Capone?
:)
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: Would it be wrong to put a sedative in Trump’s whatever-it-is-that-he drinks?
dr. luba
Kwame Kilpatrick? Really? Professional courtesy, I guess.
No word on the Tiger dude.
WaterGirl
The dogs want to know why the heck we aren’t in bed, but I am wound up.
Shalimar
@Elizabelle: Trump has the flight down to Florida to contemplate his future persecution. All possible pardons are still open until Biden takes the oath.
Shalimar
@dr. luba: If you’re famous for being corrupt, Trump admires you.
Wolvesvalley
How do you like the statement supporting the pardon of Paul Erikson, one of the guys Mueller sent to prison:
Elizabelle
@NotMax: History will regard Al Capone as a better man than Trump.
Less of a body count. More genuine concern for the poor than Dumpster Trump ever showed. A gangster and murderer and felon, yes. But his damage was more limited.
Elizabelle
@Wolvesvalley: That’s Maria Butina’s “boyfriend.”
Wolvesvalley
@Elizabelle: I had forgotten that.
Elizabelle
@Wolvesvalley: Just read the language. Fuck Trump. Fuck him, fuck him, fuck him.
If Trump wants to whinge about “witch hunts”, wait until Letitia James gets going on him.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
I was intimating Dolt 45 will pardon Capone. Professional courtesy, don’tcha know.
;)
Kent
Has anyone been pardoned yet who hasn’t already actually been indicted or convicted? Any Giuliani types who you know are guilty as hell but haven’t actually been indicted yet
Also has ANYONE been granted a pardon who actually deserved it? Who would have passed through the normal pardon office review and came out on the top of the list?
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Ah. LOL. Wondering who else is on that list of deplorables.
Kent
Someone should set the clocks on Air Force 1 to Central Time so he thinks he still has time but doesn’t. Heh.
Sorry Mr. Trump. It is 12:30 pm. You are no longer president. Bit of a mix-up with the clocks.. Sorry about that.
Mary G
@dr. luba: I put this in the next thread, but I guess it belongs here, no pardon for tiger guy Joe Exotic, despite this hideous ride he had waiting for him:
Kent
I don’t think this is true. I think if Trump signs a pardon on a cocktail napkin with a crayon on 11:59 a.m. it is still valid. Especially if there are witnesses. There is nothing in the constitution about receipt by the pardon office or whatever. Obviously it would be challenged in court as it probably has never been litigated.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
The full list. Quite a few “supported by Governor Kristi Noem ”
Caveat: Take the location the link brings you to into account when it comes to ascertaining objectivity of the descriptions therein.
Eolirin
@Kent: The question is not whether the pardon is valid, it is. The question is whether the prisoner has been freed and whether the pardon can be rescinded before he is freed, or as a procedural matter, whether the pardon is processed by whoever needs to process it for the effects of it to take place. This actually has been litigated, and can be done, though the Supreme Court isn’t beholden to precedent.
My understanding is that Grant was able to stop pardons that Johnson put into place, because the warden sat on them long enough for him to take office. And that he won the court case over it. The president is allowed to rescind pardons that haven’t been carried out yet, and it doesn’t matter if it’s a different president.
Kent
Question for the attorneys here. You can’t pardon yourself out of paying taxes can you?
I suppose one can pardon someone for a conviction for tax evasion. But that doesn’t erase the tax debt does it?
lgerard
@Wolvesvalley:
To republicans, all financial crimes are minor.
I don’t see Bannon’s co-defendants on the list, so someone has a date with the grand jury.
He also pardoned Duke Cunningham….though Dennis Hastert seems to have missed the cut
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Thank you. Will read over the list. Um, thank you, I guess ….
Elizabelle
On the pardons list: Rick Renzi, former GOP congressweasel.
Kent
For real. A cobras for alligators scheme….From the official White House statement
WaterGirl
@Kent: What I am saying is something I learned in a podcast from either the folks at Lawfare or The podcast with PopeHat and josh Barro.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
What I’m waiting on is a rundown from those in a position to know of how many came over the transom, bypassing the DOJ pardon office and process.
WaterGirl
Wow, that was an outstanding interview with Nancy Pelosi and Joy Reid. Just outstanding.
lgerard
@Elizabelle:
But not Bob Ney or Larry Craig
Ney contributed “freedom fries” for god’s sake
no justice
Kent
@WaterGirl: Well that trumps what I know, I suspect. I heard the opposite on some other podcast. But I forget which now.
Elizabelle
@WaterGirl: I wish I had recorded it. Would love to watch it again.
If anyone ever sees a link to the entire Joy Reid-Nancy Pelosi interview, would love to have it.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: That will be interesting.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: It seemed a lot of pardons for fraud and business-related convictions. Probably an easyish argument to the Criminal in Chief.
I was happy to see so many meritorious pardons; people who received too long a sentence; marijuana convictions, etc. Some “little people”, whose petitioners were their family.
It was notable how many of the pardons were at the request of Republican politicians and hangers on. There was one endorsed by the late John Lewis (another secular saint).
NotMax
@Elizabelle
Yup. There is no way the one listed as supported by Tuberville could possibly have traveled through standard channels.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Let’s keep an eye out for reporting on that. You know there is interest in how these pardons came about.
Should try to sleep a bit. Will give that a try. Ciao for now!
karen marie
@Martin: i have a add-on that does that – changes T***p to “Individual1” – and another that changes photos of him, and his family, into pictures of kittens. Oddly, neither work on twitter content.
ian
Some poor dude on that list has the last name Harkonen.
lowtechcyclist
@NotMax:
“All of them, Katie.”
My WAG is that no more than a handful went through the pardon office. I’m sure he and whichever aides of his haven’t already jumped his sinking ship came up with their own ‘process.’
Anyway, I’ll worry about that another day. Less than eight hours to go, thank the Lord.
Mel
@WaterGirl: Diet Covfefe?
patrick II
@Wolvesvalley:
The way that pardon reads, he’s pardoned for shady financial dealings, but he may still be investigated for involvement in the Russian collusion “hoax”, which the pardon specifically states does not exist since it’s (supposedly) a hoax. Good luck with that Paul.
patrick II
@lgerard:
Being a co-defendant of someone with a pardon seems to be a terrible place to be. He has to tell the whole truth without fifth amendment protections. Any less that the whole truth and he would certainly be indicted for perjury, the only way he can still get charged. So he will definitely rat you out.
trnc
DaveInOz
I still can’t believe he hasn’t pardoned close family. If this really is the case Jared is in a whole heap of trouble.