— Phos4 (@Phozz4) January 19, 2021
I read the Washington Post article MisterMix highlighted earlier, but I’m not as pessimistic about the arguments presented there:
… Federal officials estimate that roughly 800 people surged into the building, though they caution that such numbers are imprecise, and the real figure could be 100 people or more in either direction.
Among those roughly 800 people, FBI agents and prosecutors have so far seen a broad mix of behavior — from people dressed for military battle, moving in formation, to wanton vandalism, to simply going with the crowd into the building…
Not one of those dumbfvcks had any business being anywhere near the Capital that day, but insisting LOCK ‘EM ALL UP is the only correct response is no smarter than saying every ‘participant’ at a BLM street protest deserves to be punished for the few troublemakers who break windows or set fires. There’s a dangerous, festering core of true believers at the heart of the insurrection; those people need to be properly prosecuted (and hopefully stripped of any ability to cause trouble in the future). The nice-day-for-a-MAGA-rally tourists who just went along with their herd — and that will be most of them — deserve to be cited for whatever misdemeanors they committed, given a public shaming (if it were up to me, community service picking trash, or the like), and told *not* to be dumbfvcks in the future.
They’re not brave people, and they only acted out because they thought ‘everybody’ was on their side. Convince them the ratio has changed — that the Biden Administration will *not* give lawbreakers a free pass, no matter how hard the LameStream Media whines — and I’d assume at least 80% of these Brave Resistance Troupers will go back to their natural habitats at the VFW hall bars and the HOA boards.
one thing that I think gets overlooked in discussing the coup attempt is how once the mob got to a point where capitol security details were ready to shoot (and in fact did kill someone) it sort of disintegrated.
these guys, despite their plate carriers and camo, are not brave https://t.co/noCgDU9baZ
— Gerry Doyle (@mgerrydoyle) January 19, 2021
So, what happened to the insurrection? Maybe I'm jinxing it, but the wave of violence many expected didn't materialize before or on Inauguration Day; there were hardly any demonstrators. Where did all the rage go? 1/
— Paul Krugman (@paulkrugman) January 21, 2021
Big contrast with BLM demonstrations, which persisted despite far more police violence than the Trumpists ever faced. That tells you a lot 3/
— Paul Krugman (@paulkrugman) January 21, 2021
Of course, there are hardcore white nationalists and militia members who are still going to cause trouble. But a lot of the people who stormed the Capitol thought they could walk through the Rotunda carrying a lectern without any consequence. Now they know they can't.
— James Surowiecki (@JamesSurowiecki) January 21, 2021
This. Once these idiots realized their ex-wives will gladly snitch or a co-worker will forward an IG selfie from Pelosi's office to the FBI, a lot of these weekend warrior Gravy Seal Rambo-wannabes said "no thanks." Problem is-the leftovers are the real dangerous lone-wolfers.
— Bryan Hall (@bryan____hall) January 21, 2021
"You didn't break in lol"
Yes, I did. Let me be clear in this public forum that I, with my peers, forcibly entered a government building illegally. pic.twitter.com/zgpfOAvOie
— Sen. Lemon Gogurt (R – MS) (@Ugarles) January 19, 2021
Another satisfied Trump University customer pic.twitter.com/mGlpCDSc8d
— CJ Ciaramella (@cjciaramella) January 8, 2021
Yeah we tried to make this weird catty game show guy dictator for life but people got mad at him so he said it was all our idea and now the FBI is at my house
— tier four operator (@AliceAvizandum) January 8, 2021
rikyrah
They broke into the Capitol
They need to go to jail
Period ?
Anonymous At Work
Not misdemeanor but felony with probation long enough to keep them from voting for the foreseeable future. I bet that’ll kick start more than a few criminal justice reforms…
Major Major Major Major
Agreed, AL. Thanks for writing my opinion down for me ?
Mary G
It cracks me up that Trump mixed up the frog and scorpion story and made it about a snake and told it at his rallies. The tears of those few who’ve realized he was the snake are sweet.
He’s started to interfere with their states party’s doings and got Kelli Ward reelected in Arizona. You love to see it.
Wapiti
@Anonymous At Work: I’m not worried about them voting – heck, if we want to rehab prisoners they should all be allowed to vote.
But taking away their ability to threaten other people with legally owned gun. Yes.
One of the cool things I saw in the Portland/Seattle protests and counterprotests were the Antifa folk posting real time information on right-wing felons breaking their parole orders.
Elizabelle
Speaking of insurrectionists learning that their behavior has consequences:
In some good news, two police officers from Rocky Mount, VA (due south of Roanoke), both military vets and trained snipers, have been fired for being inside the Capitol during the insurrection.
The younger of the two posted photos on social media. The older of the two sounds like a stone liar (and is threatening to sue). Good riddance to both of them. Don’t see how the town could keep them around once their presence, and their social media idiocy (lots of nasty stuff), came to light.
The younger is boasting about having pissed in Nancy Pelosi’s toilet. The older is saying “wait, we weren’t there …” Whatever.
The Roanoke Times has a long story on this.
Mike in NC
Legions of angry MAGAts were supposed to go on the warpath in 50 state capitals on January 20th. Looks like not many of them got the memo.
Wapiti
AL – but the ‘protesters’ at a BLM rally who are setting fire to shit need to be stomped. As do the violent ones here, and the lady with the megaphone directing those already inside where to go, etc.
Speaking of which, whatever happened to the (white) umbrella guy busting windows at the car parts store in Minneapolis?
Raoul Paste
“ Gravy Seal”. — good one
Wapiti
@Elizabelle: Yeah, the Houston cop changed his story from ‘I wasn’t inside’ to ‘I wanted to see the art’. One wonders how many criminal defendants he testified against in his career, and how often he was lying.
sdhays
I’m not necessarily calling for “lock the all up”, but if there’s evidence they were inside the Capitol, it shouldn’t be a question that they get charged with trespassing. Maybe if they can demonstrate that they weren’t involved in breaking in and wandered in, looked around, and decided this wasn’t for them, then maybe they get probation or something. But they should have it on their record and they should have to spend time with the US Justice system.
Obviously, people with more serious evidence against them should be charged to the max.
Cacti
The procedure in a situation like this is to round up as many of them as possible, and see who knows what.
It looks like that’s what’s being done so far.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Raoul Paste: Wasn’t that a track on “Goodbye Yellow Brick Road”?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I never heard of Nicholas J Fuentes, who apparently has some kind of internet program called “America First”. Here’s his twitter bio
and like Lindsey and Kevin McCarthy, he’s gone back to his daddy (issues)
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Black Hallows, Idaho – Hello!
Morning Wood, New Mexico – Hello!
Tuscaloosa, Alabama – Hello!
Germantown, Pennsylvania – Hello!
Battle Creek, Michigan – Hello!
Good night Larry King. Hope you’re enjoying dinner at Duke Zeibert’s, tonight.
patrick II
Sending them home with just a misdemeanor charge trivializes what they did. They did not step on their neighbor’s lawn, the least of them were in the Capitol Building trying to obstruct essential democracy. Something needs to be attached of appropriate proportion to what they did.
Perhaps something like South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission where people could acknowledge the baseness and importance of their activities in addition to whatever other punishment they get.
If they didn’t get it before, others need to after.
NotMax
(Repeated.)
Dear F.B.I.,
Please do squeeze the shaman.
Thank you.
karen marie
@Mary G: Kelli Ward didn’t get reelected to anything. She lost re-election to the House in 2017. She’s been chair of the AZ GOP since 2019.
Rob
I totally agree, Anne Laurie.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@karen marie: the state party chair is elected by the state party membership
prostratedragon
Noir night on TCM: Out of the Past momentarily, followed by Night of the Hunter.
karen marie
@karen marie: She wasn’t ever in the House – my error. She was a state senator until 2015.
MisterForkbeard
@Rob:
No, I agree. Though I think the ones who went inside should probably be charged with unlawful entry and given a small fine or something put on their records.
Another Scott
I generally agree with you, AL. Go after the soldiers and the cops who are supposed to know better. Go after the people breaking the windows and doors and causing damage. Go after the people inside the Capitol. Go after the people beating people up outside.
So, what is that, maybe 1000 of the 20,000 who were there?
Covid-19 is bad in jails and prisons. Only have pretrial detention for the organizers and the worst of the list above (and maybe not even them, if they can be watched, etc., to guarantee that they show up for trial). We don’t want to create hundreds of martyrs for the next time.
That’s where I am at the moment. Subject to change.
Cheers,
Scott.
Subsole
@rikyrah:
It blows my mind that whole-ass grownups are bragging about this online.
I mean, my folks taught me how to keep a secret because just having a mark on your file can ruin your life. Maybe permanently.
And these people are just smiling for the camera.
Elizabelle
More about former Rocky Mount, VA police officers. You can see how the feds are rolling people up. From the Roanoke Times:
Steeplejack
** DVR Alert! **
Two great movies on TCM tonight: all-time great film noir Out of the Past (1947, Robert Mitchum and Jane Greer) at 8:00 EST, followed by The Night of the Hunter (1955, Robert Mitchum and Lillian Gish) at 10:00.
NotMax
@MisterForkbeard
Shall link to similar agreement downstairs rather than post it in full again.
frosty
@Anonymous At Work: I thought we were trying to change the laws so that felons could vote.
karen marie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes, as I said – she’s chair of the AZ GOP. I took the “reelected” comment by Mary to mean she was reelected to a public position. She’s only marginally more popular in Arizona than Joe Arpaio, and he’s not at all popular.
Poe Larity
18 U.S.C. 1363
sdhays
@Rob: I completely disagree. It’s not the same at all. There were thousands of nasty bigoted people at the rally on January 6th who managed to not break into the Capitol building. In the footage outside, you can see how the passivity of the majority of the crowd frustrated the instigators. If they had all been thirsty for blood, it would have been a much darker day.
Those people are innocent, just as peaceful participants in BLM rallies are. But the much smaller set of people who went inside the building are criminals, and should be treated as such. If this had been a BLM protest, there would be no question.
debbie
@Mike in NC:
LOL, here there were less than a couple of dozen and the rally ended early so they could rush home to watch the Browns lose. Sweet!
Chetan Murthy
Bret Devereaux over at acoup.blog (writing about insurrection generally, and thru history) agrees with you, Anne. We have to find a way to both impress on the lesser offenders the gravity of what they were trying to do, and still reintegrate them into society. As much as I want to throw the damn book at every last one of them. As much as I am *incensed* that BLM protestors would have had that book thrown at them [after a hail of bullets].
WaterGirl
@Wapiti: I want to know if the rumor that megaphone lady giving directions was indeed Boebert’s mother, as someone was speculating.
ColoradoGuy
Time to re-activate the Reconstruction-era laws. Insurrectionist conspirators should not be able to own or keep guns. If that era was the First Klan, we’re now dealing with what amounts to the Fourth Klan. it’s just called QAnon now, but they’re still terrorists who want to overthrow the government by violent means.
Their goals are the same as they were after 1865; overthrow racially representative government by violence, intimidation, and terrorism, and install a whites-only government.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
“I hope Trump reverses course, for our sake.”
Narrator: “He did not.”
debbie
@Another Scott:
Did you watch the video from the New Yorker? Did you see that gallows (raised platform, crossbeam, noose) they erected? What if they’d found Pence or any of the others? There have got to be consequences for that kind of criminality, realized or not.
Evil_Paul
@Mary G: The snake poem that Trump kept reciting is actually the lyrics from an old (IIRC 1960s) R&B song. The artist (I’m drawing a blank on the name but they interviewed his daughter on CBC) was a civil rights supporter and the song was a metaphor for “moderates” who embrace the genteel manners of the segregationists. You might fool yourself that their kind words and reasonable tones reflect their character, but they’re snakes, and you know it.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@sdhays:
I agree with this. I think everyone who entered the Capitol should be charged with at least unlawful entry
A Ghost to Most
They may not be “brave people”, but based on a lifetime of experience, I’d wager they’re braver than the average white lefty.
Elizabelle
RSA did some additional research on former Rocky Mount police officers Robertson and Fracker. RSA’s comment, which I am bringing forward from the previous thread.
You should read the whole story; no paywall. It’s from TV station, Channel 10, WSLS. Lot of detail, and excerpts from the ugly stuff they said on social media. They were planning to be in DC again on the 20th, although they had two dates with the feds in the meantime and are now not allowed to leave the Western District of Virginia without without permission. (The Feds had asked for ankle monitors.)
Rocky Mount cops claim innocence during Capitol riots, but federal warrant says otherwise
Investigators building case against men largely based on their social media activity
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@A Ghost to Most: you’re doing this again, are you?
Why?
Earl
@rikyrah:
Exactly.
This is some damn nonsense. Everyone who set foot in that building should get a year, bare minimum. Mostly for participating in an attempt to violently overthrow our government. Also, we’ll never ever get prison reform until the same stuff happens to white people as happens to everyone else.
Elizabelle
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I honestly don’t know what that means.
Perhaps it’s time for a Pie to Most.
Steeplejack
@Mary G:
He wasn’t mixed up—about that, at least. He was always riffing off the Al Wilson song “The Snake.”
Another Scott
@debbie: I saw pictures of the gallows, etc. I would add whoever did that to the prosecute list.
Remember the long video by the Brooklyn comics who did reporting on the rally? (It was in a post here a week or so ago.) There were lots of people who didn’t go inside, etc.
To be clear: The instigators and the monsters must be prosecuted. Sending people who were standing on the steps to prison doesn’t make sense.
If nobody goes to prison for this (after a fair trial), then it will be a very dangerous result.
Cheers,
Scott.
Major Major Major Major
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: now now, we all know that white people are good for nothing and should be insulted wherever possible.
Snarki, child of Loki
The punishment for “violent insurrection intended to disrupt electoral procedures” SHOULD be lifetime loss of voting privileges.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, felon disenfranchisment. But if any of those felons had attacked a polling station or the like in state elections, sure no vote for them. It’s making the punishment fit the crime.
Gravenstone
@Subsole: They’re convinced that they are/will be on the winning side. And thus they’re documenting their exploits because “history is written by the winners “.
randy khan
Everybody who went into the building needs to be prosecuted. I am okay with pleading out the ones who didn’t do anything once they got there, but it’s really important for everyone who even was a hanger-on to the insurrection to end up with a criminal record as, if nothing else, an incentive to prevent them from doing it again. (Second offenses generally end up costing you a lot more.)
And by “okay,” what I mean is that it’s not my first choice and that I want prosecutors to be absolutely sure that anyone who gets a deal wasn’t an active participant. If you took so much as a pen off someone’s desk, or were at even the fringes of the mob trying to break into the House chamber, or were in the crowd of people the Capitol Police officer led on a wild goose chase, or bragged about what you were doing on social media, I want you charged with every single thing that the prosecutors can think of, and to get no plea deal unless it involves a felony conviction and prison time.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Major Major Major Major: Oh, I suspect that one is as white as I am. And as middle-aged. And as fit for taking to the hills to fight.
I just usually think of “WOLVERINES!” as a rightwing thing.
(“WOLVERINES!” may no longer be a thing, but as I said, I am extremely middle-aged. And I’ve never seen…. Red Dawn, was it? I’m a bit behind on your pop culture and such)
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
OT:
I’m so mad Ohio Senator Stephen Huffman was appointed to lead the Senate Health Committee. The Senate President is the guy’s cousin. Even leaving aside his racist comments on black people’s hygiene from last summer, he should never have been selected in the first place because of nepotism, no matter how qualified he might be, being a licensed physician; I’m sure there are other physicians serving in the Ohio Senate. This was just another example of conservatives’ entitlement as well as a way to say, “Fuck you, libtards, I’ll appoint my racist cousin just because I can.”
Remarks from Stephen Huffman’s spokesperson display this entitlement:
That’s not how forgiveness works, dude. You can’t just demand people forgive you. People don’t have to. That’s not “cancel culture”. It’s nothing new and is old as humanity. You’re just used to people overlooking this stuff in the past. If he were truly sorry, he wouldn’t have his spokesperson make comments like this and he wouldn’t have accepted his cousin’s appointment.
Huffman was fired from his ER job after these comments:
apocalipstick
@prostratedragon: The next four hours are booked.
Matt McIrvin
Here’s the thing: How do we establish that these people won’t have impunity, the next time a Republican President gets in, and decides that this time they can plan a little better and make it work?
Making an example of them might help. But maybe the key thing is to go as hard as possible after Trump.
Major Major Major Major
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: they remade it and nobody saw that, either.
patrick II
@WaterGirl:
I was one of the ones speculating on whether she was Boebert’s mother. It looks very much like her. However in a story in The Sun, Boebert denies it:
The story says that the lady had remarkable inside knowledge of the Capitol and the hunt continues.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
@Elizabelle:
@Major Major Major Major:
I guess A Ghost to Most doesn’t know any liberal/left-wing gun owners? Because they exist.
I used to like him and he was an interesting commenter, but ever since last year he’s spouted dumb, trollish stuff like this. I remember how he used to say, “November 4th will be when the real battle starts” or something to that effect.
patrick II
@Steeplejack:
Thanks, Steeplejack. Mitchum is one of my all-time favorites.
NotMax
@Jim, Foolish Literalist
Entirely off topic but made me remember that when a Sgt. Rock movie was seriously under pre-production consideration the scuttlebutt was that the first choice for the lead was Schwarzenegger.
“Oop dee heel, Eezzee!”
:)
Poe Larity
These people are Patriots! They are Real Americans! They are the last gasp of liberty in the war against the Deep State and Communism! Nothing should make them prouder to be true martyrs for The Donald and the American Way of Life.
Giving them a slap on wrist for Storming the Capitol is an egregious affront to their sacrifice. One day your grandchildren’s grandchildren will visit The Storming monument on the Mall. What will they think if their statues are all just wearing GPS ankle bracelets? How do you even do that in bronze?
Major Major Major Major
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): the scariest people I know, excluding myself, are straight white liberals.
There are those who call me...tim... (Still posh)
Agreed. “Lock (whoever) up!” Was His thing. Many of these clowns were just sad. Their children are snitching for pete’s sake! Sad clowns, wandering loose, in thrall to a demonic grifter. Let them own that for a real long time. Shame is a great deterrent.
Baud
I wish George Washington had a cell phone camera during the Revolutionary War.
trollhattan
@MisterForkbeard:
As a compare-and-contrast, my kid attended one of the first local BLM-George Floyd marches. It was very large, had a large cop presence, ended near sundown and dispersed peacefully. Except, a smaller group peeled off at the end and after dark began raising a ruckus, damaging property and confrontation with the cops, at which point there teargas, rubber bullets, arrests and for some, charges filed. Most of the marchers went home safely having made their voices heard.
Jan 6 saw very large crowds listen to Trump then march towards the Capitol. Most did not inside so unless they broke some other laws they went home, having had their voices heard.
Choices were made in both instances.
NotMax
@Poe Larity
Crowning the only fountain in town that spurts KoolAid instead of plain water.
//
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
You’re correct, it is Red Dawn. It’s surprisingly a very antiwar war movie and from I remember, the Wolverines end up getting steamrolled by the invading Soviet Red Army in the end. I remember one particular scene of a Soviet infantryman picking up a handgun from some American gunnut he found dead was pretty funny. The stiff’s truck had one of those “Cold Dead Hands” bumper stickers. Of course, I can’t even begin to imagine how the USSR of the 1980s (or any foreign power for that matter) would’ve been able to invade the Continental US like they did
MomSense
Lock them ALL up.
fuckem
Momsense
+3
Alison Rose
Oh man, I needed the cackle I got from “Gravy Seal”
Amir Khalid
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That “WOLVERINES!” cry always makes me wonder why these American super-patriots are celebrating a Canadian comic-book hero.
Dan B
@Elizabelle: These statements are frightening. I wonder how many adherents there are. It doesn’t take but a few hundred to organize and act out. We need some reasonable accountability for all forms of media and networks or we end up like Myanmar.
lowtechcyclist
For those who illegally entered the Capitol, but no evidence that they did anything more than wander around once they were inside, I’d say ten days in jail. Enough to convince them to never do that again, and enough to let the next people who get ideas know that even the small fry might spend a few days as guests of the Federal government.
Anybody who did so much as rifling through papers should get a year or more.
People who were instigators, or brought weapons into the building, or assaulted police officers or anyone else, or stole stuff, or did nontrivial property damage – throw the book at ’em. Make them wish they were in Russia with Edward Snowden.
Major Major Major Major
@Amir Khalid: because it’s the name of a high school football team or something in a shitty 80s movie.
debbie
@Elizabelle:
I wonder if he cried when they put the cuffs on him, like some of his fellow marchers. //
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
“I know a man who made an anti-war movie — a good one. When it was shown in his home town, army enlistment went up six hundred percent.”
– Eli Cross (Peter O’Toole), The Stunt Man
.
Elizabelle
@Steeplejack: Great song. In three days, I am now a Black Pumas fan and an Al Wilson (RIP) fan.
Never heard that before. Did know the story about the frog and the scorpion (same sad tale).
And Abe Lincoln used to give speeches about how allowing the territories to permit slavery would be like putting your beloved child to bed with a passel of young snakes, too.
Those snakes. They get around. Ssssss.
Dan B
@randy khan: Pramila Jayapal told her story of being caught in the gallery of the House with people screaming and trying to break down the doors. She’d recently had knee replacement so had difficulty getting on the floor behind the seats to hide. There were few police and they weren’t sure what to do.
It was terrifying. How about Terrorism charges?
sanjeevs
Am I wrong in thinking that
1. Georgia is potentially another Virginia where the demographic trends (increasing urbanisation, some relocation of tech workers etc) favor the Democrats
2. Arizona is more like a Florida where there is a constant influx of retirees, Hispanics which make the demographic changes on politics very hard to predict
sdhays
@lowtechcyclist: Edward Snowden. I guess Dump didn’t come through with a pardon for him, did he? What a shame.
Ohio Mom
Wapiti @8:
You inspired me to do some googling: according to a MPR article on Dec 10, a police investigator identified Umbrella man (he’s a member of a white supremicist gang) but so far, no charges have been filed.
That’s all it said — no explanation of why charges have not been filed. Maybe they don’t have enough court-worthy evidence? IANAL.
On another note, I remember the long-standing accusation that undercover police have always been assigned to populate lefty groups and stir up trouble. Now it turns out there actually are law enforcement personnel involved in stirring up trouble at far right events (albeit not on assignment, strictly as off-duty volunteers).
Parfigliano
@Anonymous At Work: Felony conviction means gun rights gone too. Everywhere.
Doug R
@A Ghost to Most: Bill Maher, is that you?
sdhays
@sanjeevs: I think Georgia definitely looks like a potential Virginia. The test will be in 2022 with Dump (probably) mostly out of the picture.
As for Arizona, I don’t know, but the one big difference is that “Hispanic” in Florida predominantly means “Cuban”, and Cuban immigrants and their descendants’ politics are pretty different from non-Cuban Hispanic people, in the aggregate.
Anonymous At Work
@frosty: Yup, this’ll make sure that some conservatives realize “It could happen to me!”
randy khan
@Dan B:
As far as I’m concerned, anyone who participated actively should be charged with sedition. Personally, I think what they did qualifies as treason, but I’m not going to press the point.
I don’t know enough about what you have to do to commit terrorism, but I’d be fine with that, too, if the acts fit the crime.
Ruckus
@Subsole:
These are not whole ass adults or grownups. They are adolescents at best.
@Another Scott:
This.
Anyone who went in the Capital building during a time of duress has to have some charge. Even if they were not there to destroy, steal, harm, kill. Those who did cause death, destruction, theft of goods and information, those who lead others, those working with any legislators need to suffer real criminal prosecution. Any legislators that were in any way a part of an armed insurrection against the government that they took an oath to defend, need to be criminally and politically charged.
I took an oath and several others here did the same. The concept was that we would defend the country, from enemies foreign and domestic. That is what citizens do. We have many opportunities to right the wrongs, civil suits, as the president and his “lawyer” did do. And they lost every one of them. Insurrection is what domestic enemies do. That’s what people that participated in violence did. Was standing there if they didn’t take any action insurrection? That is the real question.
sdhays
@Ohio Mom: I expect that will make infiltrating such groups that much harder since there’s likely a MUCH higher chance of being outed by a fellow officer.
NotMax
@sdhays
Yes about Cubanos, and to a lesser extent Venezuelans.
Chetan Murthy
@sdhays: I think (hope!) you’re right, that AZ isn’t so much like Florida — Latinos are not an amorphous mass. And seeing that Latino turnout drove things in AZ, I’m hopeful. But OTOH, I look at Latinos in TX in the Rio Grande Valley, and in AZ, and I wonder: “how are they different?” B/c I read a lot about how RGV was such a disppointment in TX. I wish we understood that better, so we could know that it wasn’t a danger in AZ.
Mike in NC
@Poe Larity: I hope The Storming monument will be close to the National Garden of American Heroes that Trump tried to make happen with a ridiculous Executive Order.
sdhays
@NotMax: Isn’t part of the story of Arizona also people leaving California for cheaper cost of living? Former Californians are substantially more likely to be Democrats. I don’t think there’s a similar situation in Florida, which I guess is why Democrats have been doing so poorly there recently.
sdhays
@Chetan Murthy: I don’t know if it’s true, but I read that a lot of Latinos in south Texas saw Donald Dump’s signature on their COVID check and voted accordingly. Which suggests that as unseemly as it is, Biden should do the same thing with any more checks that get sent out.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@NotMax:
Making a truly “antiwar” war movie is definitely a paradox because viewers still like the on-screen violence
Chetan Murthy
@sdhays: Heh. If that’s all it was, I’m gonna be relieved. Regardless, 100% with you on the Dems and Biden taking credit for *everything* they can. *Everything*.
Chetan Murthy
Maybe I’m being Chicken Little, but I’m really troubled by how long it’s taking to get the organizing resolution passed in the Senate so they can get going on real business. I’m feeling like this is some sort of kabuki play, and when it ends, we’ll find that the filibuster is intact. And that’ll mean we’re *fucked*.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Major Major Major Major:
John Cole was a tank driver in the army during the Gulf War ?
RSA
@Elizabelle: Thanks for copying my comment! I’m glad you brought the story to our attention; these are scary people.
sdhays
Does anyone know what Biden’s position is on Space Farce? Will he let it continue, or will he pull the plug? It was one of those really stupid things that came out of nowhere, but Dumpy Dump wanted it and it was simply wasteful and stupid rather than actively shitting on people, so it was traded for something valuable. But there shouldn’t be much of a constituency in the Republican Party for maintaining it.
Ohio Mom
Goku @96: proving that redemption is always possible.
NotMax
@sdhays
Cannot ascribe it solely to them but the (no longer constant) stream of retirees in Florida relocating from NY/NJ/CT kept the worst of the R-ness at bay. IMHO.
Outside of it being prescribed as a restorative for TB patients, my familiarity with Arizona is ultra sparse.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Not necessarily. The most obvious example being anti-nuclear war movies.
Steeplejack
@Elizabelle:
Al Wilson had a great voice. Didn’t always get the best material. His other big hit was “Show and Tell.”
Mike in NC
@sdhays: He probably cannot disband it with an Executive Order, I suspect. Might need Congressional agreement.
sdhays
@Chetan Murthy: I fully expect the filibuster to remain intact. Joe Manchin, Krysten Sinema, and Angus King (at least) are on record saying they want to preserve it. DiFi too. I made my peace with the filibuster, for now, when we failed to pick up a few more seats in the Senate. I just expect Senate Democrats to be sufficiently aggressive and creative with reconciliation.
However, this shit with the Organizing Resolution seems like pretty much the best way to convince those Senators I mentioned above to change their minds.
sdhays
@Mike in NC: I expect you’re right, and I hope that it’s actually something that Republicans and Democrats can agree on.
Mike in NC
@NotMax: Most of our wingnut neighbors came here from NY-NJ-LI.
Chetan Murthy
@sdhays:
Then we’re fucked. No VRA, and no immigration overhaul. Bunch of other things, too. Yertle will block everything he can, and voter suppression on steroids will probably do the rest. Sigh.
NotMax
@sdhays
In the spirit of originalism, restore the filibuster to standing and speaking ad nauseum to hold the floor.
Sister Golden Bear
Actions have consequences. Even the joy-rider elements of the insurgents had to know what they were doing was illegal — walking in through smashed doors is kind of clue — they just thought they’d be free of consequences for doing it.
From what I’ve read part of the issue are worries about overloading the D.C. courts (and presumably the FBI’s time to investigate lesser offenders), which valid, but addressable. After all the police/courts have managed to handle it when they’ve mass-arrested lefty protesters.
The hard core insurgents — whether inside the Capitol or those outside who built gallows, carried guns, etc. — should be a dealt harshly. Felony convictions where possible, to prevent them from legally owning guns again.
Given Covid and prisons, I’m OK with the joy-riders getting hefty fines and suspended sentences — revokable if they try something else. (OTOH, if we emptied the private prisons of all the folks in there on low-level non-violent drug charges there would undoubted be room to house them more safely.) But they made a choice, and we need to make clear that choice was beyond the pale.
zhena gogolia
Okay, this morning we had the discussion of how (in a joke tweet) Joe Biden was outlawing questions that are really more of a comment. I found the guy who did the funniest version of this, where the person asking the question just gives their own talk:
RedDirtGirl
@Elizabelle: I just went down a rabbit hole of Pro Publica footage from DC. There is a link to it in your article. Maybe everyone has seen it, but PP has put together footage from throughout January 6th. Almost minute by minute, from different sources.
NotMax
@Mike in NC
Yeah, New Dealers replaced through attrition by Art of the Dealers is an unfortunate reality.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@sdhays:
What the fuck do these morons think is going to happen with an intact filibuster? NOTHING important will get done. They need to understand that the Republicans wouldn’t spare a second thought to blow up the filibuster if it prevented them from doing something they wanted to do and helped Democrats. They need to think bigger because if they don’t the GOP will ensure they’re never out of power again. It will mean dictatorship. Why don’t supposedly smart people like Manchin, Sinema, and King understand this? Lack of imagination? “It can’t happen here” mentality? The last 4 years should’ve disabused them of that idea
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@NotMax:
That’s true. I totally forgot about those
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
?
Actually, that reminded me of the q and a session at the end of Actors Studio with James Lipton.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Partly tradition, partly inertia, partly the same reason McConnell didn’t eighty-six it: knowing majority status is not a condition etched in diamond.
Sister Golden Bear
@NotMax: Agreed. One reason the “talking filibuster” was used pretty sparingly in days of yore.
Although it’s far, far better that it be ended. It’s a powerful anti-democratic tool — first really used by John Calhoun “for the specific purpose of empowering the planter class” — in an already anti-democratic body.
PJ
@Major Major Major Major: I guess you don’t get out much.
sdhays
@Chetan Murthy: I agree, but explain it to Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema. Angus King has made some comments that sound wobbly, and I don’t think that DiFi will be the lone holdout.
I think it really depends on how far McConnell pushes them, and also what McConnell really wants. Is his endgame getting rid of the filibuster with the Democrats taking the blame? Or does he simply not believe that Democrats are willing to do it, with the idea that if it does look like the Democrats are prepared to pull the plug on the filibuster, he’ll fold?
I find it odd since filibustering bills is normal and probably wouldn’t have been enough to convince Senate Democrats to ditch the filibuster, no matter how important the bill, but filibustering the Organizing Resolution is so extraordinary that it’s pretty much asking for it to be revoked.
Gravenstone
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Actually, in the original Red Dawn it was the Cubans who invaded, as part of what was apparently a larger Russian led assault. Paratroops, in the middle of fucking Colorado! Yeah, I enjoyed the move well enough in the moment because I was young and stupid. But let’s just say it doesn’t age well and does not remotely stand up to critical scrutiny.
trollhattan
@sdhays:
Good question. IDK but if I’m Biden I tell my new SecDef, “Look at this and see if it makes any sense to keep it.” If no, then let it die of neglect and absorb the bits back to their old organizations, or perhaps other places that make more sense.
Like DHS, it seems like a collection of stuff that doesn’t easily go together.
Beautifulplumage
Huh, a ghost to most must know it’s National Pie Day today
Elizabelle
@RSA: Great job finding the TV 10 story. It was way more informative than the local paper, which had a good — but way less explicit — article.
The older jerk, TJ Robertson, was a contractor with Xe. (Which used to be Blackwater.) I suspect our military and law enforcement are rank with jackasses like him.
Gravenstone
@Amir Khalid: Well the “Wolverines” of the movie were the local high school’s mascot. So rah rah, let’s go kill some Commies I guess?
sdhays
@NotMax: Amen! This 60-vote cloture shit is lazy and stupid. I have no problem letting the minority have some tools to make a really big stink when they are fully invested, but letting them stop everything just by voting “no” on cloture is absurd.
Elizabelle
@RedDirtGirl: Good to know. Have not watched that yet. Thanks.
columbusqueen
@sdhays: The biggest story in AZ was the Native vote. Navajo Nation went 97% to 3 % for Biden. We keep that voting block engaged & active, AZ goes blue & stays blue.
J R in WV
@Poe Larity:
Looks like to me that everyone/anyone who broke a window, kicked in a door, broke a picture frame, put their feet up on an executive desk, is up for 20 years in prison. Picked up a nice memento, stole a letterhead, anything like that, going up for 20 years. I think interviewers of these folks should have a copy of this Section 1363, to show the person being interviewed. Let them read it. Give them time to read it a couple of times.
Then you can start the interview. From a point of strength. Ask them if they understand the potential penalties in the statute. Ask them if they knew that 5 people died — placed “the life of any person…. in jeopardy” being an important portion of the statute. Then ask if they entered through a broken window or door.
Tell them there’s a lot of video of the doorways and windows… then ask if they want to correct their statements, pointing out that lying in a federal investigation carries its own penalties, aside from the penalties associated with the initial crime.
IANAL, but I bet most of these people will fold pretty quickly. On video!
MisterForkbeard
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): The thing is, they can significantly add loopholes to the filibuster without getting rid of it, and I suspect that’s what they’ll do.
They’ll add additional strictures like “can’t disrupt the organizing resolution of the Senate” and “filibusters cannot be applied to X or Y type of legislation without the agreement of the Majority Leader”, etc. Or just stating that filibusters are absolutely allowed, but debate cannot be delayed by more than a month for any bill.
SFAW
@prostratedragon:
Reading your pro tip at 9:30, so I’ve missed most of Out of the Past. Damn. But I appreciate the heads-up.
NotMax
@sdhays
Also too (just spitballin’ here) there’s nothing special about 60. Could be made 55. Or 52.
Hardly an ideal, but an idea.
Lapassionara
@Steeplejack: thank you. Night of the Hunter is one of the best.
Delk
At minimum, put them all on the no-fly list.
WaterGirl
@patrick II: Maybe it’s her aunt, then? Or her mother has a twin?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Ohio Mom:
Well, he was redeemed from being a Republican
Nothing wrong with being in the army : )
sdhays
@columbusqueen: Yes, I remember that. Huge turnout as well, as I recall. Hopefully all of those new voters will become habitual voters. I think Biden certainly took notice. It was really conspicuous how, in the days after the election and Biden assumed the position of President-Elect, the messaging coming out of the campaign and transition talked about tribal governments in the same breath as local and state governments.
Typically, tribal governments aren’t mentioned at all, and certainly not as equivalent to other levels of government.
WaterGirl
@MomSense: Did you see that Joe Biden is proposing that people who feel it’s not safe for them at work can get unemployment?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@NotMax:
That one’s easily solved. Just put the filibuster back in before you lose your majority. Sometimes we have to be just as brazen as the Republicans
Jay
@Wapiti:
the one big “BLM” fire was the girlfriend of executed by Cop, Rayshard Brookes, torching the Wendys where he was murdered.
White Umbrella Man, was identified as a Hells Angel, White Supremacist, known agitator by the Police but as near as I can tell, has not been named or charged.
sdhays
@MisterForkbeard: Yes! Having the filibuster being an absolute almost painless veto is disastrous. Having a filibuster that requires actual effort on the part of the minority means that it should be used more sparingly, and even if deployed, it shouldn’t give the minority the ability to prevail unless the majority decides it isn’t worth the time and effort to overcome it.
Starfish
@WaterGirl: To me, it did not very much look like Boebert’s mom
However, there were people at this protest that were tied to Boebert. For example, there were some dudes who had their photo taken outside her restaurant who were arrested there.
NotMax
@Lapassionara
Glimpsed though peripheral vision, Laughton as director absorbed a lot from Hitchcock.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
To answer the question about the Space Force being disbanded by Biden, it’s not likely:
That bolded bit by me is the most important. It would require Congress to get rid of it and support for the Space Farce is bipartisan unfortunately, so it’s here to stay
J R in WV
@Ruckus:
This is the oath I remember, to the Constitution, not the Country, the President, nothing else but the Constitution. No hard feelings, but that’s what I remember.
Starfish
@Earl: Yup.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Put bluntly, your naivete is showing.
Chetan Murthy
@NotMax: I was sure Goku was joking here.
sdhays
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): That’s a bit too blatant. I feel that one of the critical problems with the filibuster as it currently is is that it’s horribly distorting. The vast majority of Americans don’t understand it. If Party X has the White House, the House of Representatives, and a majority in the Senate and still can’t pass its agenda, then what do elections and parties really mean anyway?
You and I know that it still matters, but I think elections would be a lot better if voters knew that if Party X or Party Y were actually in charge, the things they claim to be in favor of would be very likely to actually happen.
The Republican Party platform is actually very unpopular, but they’ve gotten away with that for decades because too many people don’t believe that they’ll enact the worst of it. Taking away that expectation should eventually force some changes in the direction of the party platform.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@sdhays: You know what this means, don’t you? Ted Cruz will start reading “Green Eggs and Ham” again. Keep the current filibuster, no one wants to go though that again. //
Mai Naem mobile
@sanjeevs: Florida has Cubans. Arizona Hispanics are mostly Mexican Americans and some Central Americans. There are new retirees, but I think we have a healthy high tech sector which brings in younger new residents who tend to be more liberal. I don’t know the statistics but my guess is that we are adding more people to urban areas than rural areas so diluting the rural vote even more. The Dem statewide wins have been from pushing the urban and Native American vote to beat the GOP heavy rural vote.
sdhays
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): That sucks.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@NotMax:
Why? All it would take is a simple majority vote, right?
sdhays
@?BillinGlendaleCA: If that’s what the filibuster becomes, you may find Republicans willing to join Democrats in ending it, just to shut him up.
Mai Naem mobile
@Starfish: Boebert’s mom has a pretty common looking face, even more so when you take glasses and the mask into consideration. I work with a couple of people who look a lot like her.
sdhays
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): If you can put the filibuster back with a simple majority vote, the Republicans in the next Congress can take it away again with a simple majority vote.
RSA
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): It’s not as though space has been neglected by the military, though. See Multi-Domain Operations (MDO) for example.
Chetan Murthy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): OK, the point of “it’s dangerous to get rid of the filibuster” isn’t that “once it’s gone, you can’t put it back”. The issue is that, if one party nukes the filibuster when it has control, then the other party is more likely to do the same when -it- has control. That is, the issue is one of “norms”, nor “rules”. Retaining the filibuster is a “norm”. You nuke a norm, you invite the other side to keep the norm nuked, or even to nuke some -other- norm.
zhena gogolia
We’re watching the prayer service they had the day after the inauguration. It’s really good. I guess Rev. Barber is going to speak.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@sdhays:
@Chetan Murthy:
But I mean, hasn’t one of the lessons of the past several years in American politics been that Republicans will trample over norms eventually anyway and it’s better to just yank the rug out from under them and take the initiative?
zhena gogolia
@debbie:
It reminds me of all Q&A sessions at any scholarly conference, especially when one of the speakers is famous.
sdhays
@Chetan Murthy: I wonder what other norms would be left. “Holds” are a joke now, left to the whim of the Majority Leader on whether to honor them or not. A lot of courtesies that used to be extended are now pretty much gone, if not in name then in practice if it’s deemed necessary by the Majority Leader.
There probably are some, I just am drawing up blank what they might be.
Kent
@Chetan Murthy: the biggest problem is that the filibuster is 100% one sided. Republicans no longer do big legislation. The last big legislative initiative they had was Bushes privatization of Social Security which was 15 years ago. And it failed. Since then all they have done is tax cuts through reconciliation. Judges with no filibuster. And deregulation through executive branch actions and the Congressional Review Act which can’t be filibustered. So Dems are keeping their powder dry for nothing. There is only one party that even has a legislative agenda. That is why this is such a farce.
sdhays
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Yes, that’s why I support going ahead and nuking the filibuster. But there’s no chance of tricking the Republicans into putting it back in place if/when they get back in the majority. We have to be clear-eyed about that.
Once it’s gone, it’s gone.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@MisterForkbeard:
I hope that’s what will happen. That doesn’t sound so dire
RSA
@J R in WV:
Every civilian employee of the federal government also takes an oath:
sdhays
@Kent: Yes, this is a really important point. The value of the filibuster is much, much greater to Republicans in a minority than to Democrats in a minority.
Woodrow/asim
@Chetan Murthy: Right. This is that tit-for-tat business that “let’s hammer the oppo!” tends to ignore.
We have the majority by a fuckin’ slender thread. We’re not the GOP, who have built-in advantages, most cycles. Being harder than them isn’t going to magically change those advantages.
I see, in a lot of this, a thirst for revenge, first and foremost, over good governance. It’s bullshit. Trying to treat the GOP “like they treat us” will, in fact, not get us votes, not solve our issues — it will, however, ensure that the cycles of American governance will spin more and more out of control and stability. As the people baying for the GOP’s (metaphorical) blood get it, what happens next? What happens when we inevitably lose?
History shows us: those of us who are marginalized and need stable protections under the law, and our allies who depend on us, will not have it, as every election cycle becomes an effort to tear down everything the prior one did.
Fuck that Shit. Let the Democrats try to build something that might just last past the now, and the urge to beat up on the GOP.
Trust me, I Get It. But I would hate for that desire for revenge, righteous or not, to rule us.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Because stability has its virtues. Here’s a sort of analogy:
Imagine the breadth and depth of fusterclucks if your town switched the direction on all one way streets back and forth on a whim.
Chetan Murthy
@Kent: Preachin’ to the converted. 100% with you. Nuke the damn thing.
Major Major Major Major
@Chetan Murthy: a simple majority can eliminate the filibuster at any time, pinkie swear or no. It’s been done by Democrats and Republicans at this point.
J R in WV
@RSA:
Well, there you go, then.
Same, same!
Ksmiami
@Subsole: Woke up, Took a shower, grabbed some zip ties, got a latte, shut down Democracy, ate peanuts at the hotel bar…
Patricia Kayden
Huge sigh. Shame on the NYT.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Woodrow/asim:
In my view, it’s not about tearing down what the other party did before, it’s about ensuring the only party that has a popular agenda and is capable of governing responsibly will be better positioned in the future. A rebalanced and expanded judiciary branch will no longer be hostile to the laws we pass as well as voting rights. Passing programs that noticeably help a lot of people, in addition to good messaging, will go a long way towards that too. It’s not about revenge, it’s about stopping the march towards right-wing authoritarianism. I’m literally terrified of the next time the Republicans have control of the federal government. A President Hawley, Cruz, or Cotton will be the competent fascist of our nightmares. Some GOP Senator or Rep actually put a bill forward to ban the Democratic Party.
Sure, you can argue they knew it wouldn’t pass, but the thought they thought it was remotely ok even as a messaging bill is beyond the pale
Gwangung
@Woodrow/asim: Actually, I think there needs to be SELECTIVE hammering of the GOP.
As other have pointed out, the filibuster constrains the Dems, but it doesn’t constrain the Republicans, because of the lack of policy. And building something is just not possible with the GOP using the filibuster.
There needs to be SOMETHING to break the deadlock, or there really ISN’T any difference between the two parties.
NotMax
@Chetan Murthy
Oh jeeze. Now have a mini-earworm of “nuke some other norm” to the tune of the old “knock on any Norge” jingle.
;)
Major Major Major Major
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I suspect Mitch is going to over play his hand and the Dems, having finally learned a fucking lesson (which they seem to have), will get to reform the filibuster more in sorrow than anger, and we can all get on with our lives. Not saying it’ll happen but that seems like a likely future at this moment. I don’t see the caucus taking this lying down right now
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Replicating their playbook is not the answer. If anything, it validates their actions.
Ksmiami
@Chetan Murthy: I’m calling Schumer etc Monday. Start using power or lose it
Gin & Tonic
Been off-grid, so this isn’t super-current, but here is a crowd of pro-Navalny protesters in Yakutsk on Saturday (it’s now noon on Sunday there.) It is -50C.
Zelma
@RSA:
Heck. I took a similar oath to get on the ballot when I ran for school board although I also had to swear to uphold the constitution of New Jersey.
randy khan
@Chetan Murthy:
The filibuster will be intact when they pass the organizing resolution. Schumer hasn’t proposed to get rid of it because he doesn’t have the votes yet. What won’t happen, I am pretty sure, is McConnell’s dream of getting the Dems to commit not to eliminate it later.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@sdhays:
Tell me about it
@Gravenstone:
I remember in HS some Republican goobers in my AP Gov class actually called our teacher while they were watching it to gush over it, because he had talked about it during class one day
One of them was the same one I’ve mentioned before that joked about AIDS killing gay people. During class. And I overheard him and called him out over it. Hated that guy. Monotone-voiced creep on the football team
NotMax
@Gin & Tonic
Pity the brass monkeys.
:)
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Woodrow/asim: When we end up getting nothing passed, the Democrats will be blamed since they control the House, the Senate and the White House. Most folk don’t do the nuance of how the legislative process works, they just see nothing getting done to help them and they’ll look to elect people who’ll say they’ll get stuff done.
Mike in NC
@Gin & Tonic: The Trump family might have to rethink their plan to flee to Moscow.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Exactly this.
@NotMax:
Then what is the answer? Letting them obstruct us until we get blamed by voters for “doing nothing” and losing our majorities? Because that’s what happened for most of Obama’s admin
piratedan
while I understand the desire by certain elements to retain the filibuster, the abuse of its current incarnation is unseemly.
You want to retain the Filibuster, fine, you get Old School filibuster. You put your ass on the floor and it lasts as long as you’re willing to speak…. continuously. No tag teams, no I put the motion on the floor and its good for x number of hours… it’s you, on the floor. Making your impassioned plea to the nation. You get ten minutes every two hours to take a piss or drink/eat something. That’s it.
You want to show how much you think of the legislation, nomination, point of parliamentary procedure, then you speak to it. No reading the phone book, no Dr. Suess, no Sean Hannity biography. You want to hold up the nation’s business, then you speak to it.
You can’t do that, then go hold an aggrieved news conference on the steps and write an Op Ed. I’m sure someone will pay the Times to run it.
NotMax
@BillinGlendaleCA
Another argument for restoring the talking filibuster. When people can see a GOPer standing there, can put a distinct face on obstructing the process, it highlights stark differences far more effectively than just another roll call vote ever can.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Major Major Major Major:
I hope you’re right
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
There is no single one size fits all circumstances answer. In any case “Don’t you hate what they did? Let’s do the same thing.” would not be it, IMHO.
TS (the original)
@WaterGirl:
I read that – presumably to stop people being forced to work in close proximity to others in areas where covid is prevalent (e.g. meat processing plants).
Do the states have to agree with this for it to take effect?
randy khan
@NotMax:
Their playbook is abusing whatever power they have whenever it’s to their advantage. Literally the only reason they did not nuke the filibuster for legislation was that there wasn’t any legislation they wanted badly enough that they couldn’t get some other way. (Both the failed attempt to kill the ACA and the tax cuts were under the reconciliation rules that don’t allow filibusters.) They did nuke it for the Supreme Court the very first chance they got, and *every* *single* *Republican* in the Senate voted to do it.
Barring some huge surprise, they’re now going to turn around and use the filibuster to block every piece of substantive legislation they can, not even because they oppose the legislation but because they want Biden to fail. It’s cynical and entirely contrary to the public interest, but that’s very likely what we’re going to see. Your choices in reacting to that are to let it go or to change the rules so they can’t do it. It’s not replicating their playbook at all. It’s no longer letting your abuser dictate what you do.
Bear in mind, too, that it is extremely unlikely that the Dems will act at the first opportunity, if for no other reason than that Manchin et al. will need some combination of being convinced and cover for changing their minds. We’re probably in for several months of Senate Republicans saying no to everything and “negotiating” while they have no intention of agreeing to anything while anger builds in the Democratic caucus.
SFBayAreaGal
@columbusqueen: Thank you. I was going to bring this up.
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic:
I tried earlier to get people interested in what’s happening in Russia. No dice.
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic:
This is the one that made me sob:
Jeffro
I think I’ve mentioned before how I told my TCNJ dad and bro that, post Jan 6th (and their comments), we won’t be discussing politics ever again. Now my religious-right mom is trying to deflect every possible bit of accountability for trumpov (impeachment) and the insurrectionists (criminal charges) with “what about unity?”
Needless to say, phrasing it in the reverse (Democratic president calling for insurrection, Democratic mobs killing cops up on Capitol Hill) has not garnered a response yet. Hmm…standards, how do they work?
Major Major Major Major
@randy khan: what’s weird to me is that pinkie swearing not to kill the filibuster in the rules doesn’t change the fact that you can… amend the rules with fifty votes, as has been done many times. I get why Mitch wants Dems on the record, and I get why they’d prefer not to go there, but it’s also pointless and voters don’t care anyway.
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: It’s far away. I get it. Better to whine about how we can’t do anything here.
I was happy that Biden got elected, now this place has become doom central like LGM. Time for a hiatus, I think.
Jeffro
@piratedan: I hear you but the simplest argument in these times is, “Filibuster? F that – we have the majority and there’s work to do”
I mean, what kind of legislature operates on a super-majority basis, much less when a country’s got multiple crises going on?
If they (the GOP) want the filibuster back, they can work to regain the majority in 2022 or 2024…AFTER we’ve shown the country what an actual working, functional government can do for them.
Another Scott
@Gin & Tonic: Thanks for the pointer. I’ve seen the clip of the cops being furiously pelted with snowballs in Moscow.
A better linky for the -50C:
That’s cold!
Cheers,
Scott.
Jay
@Gin & Tonic:
I am watching what is happening in Russia,
and in Belarus,
and Yemen,
and Libya,
and other places, like Portland.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Gin & Tonic:
That would be a shame. I enjoy your comments and perspective even if I don’t always agree
Jay
@Another Scott:
it was -45 in Washington a few days ago, : )
Another Scott
@Jay: Indeed it was!
Cheers,
Scott.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
The other part of is stopping with the privileges classes of people above the law is part of good governance.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I think it’s even worse than that. The GOP is so split none of the politicians want to be the in the room when a decision is being made because some faction of the GOP will accuse them of being RINOS.
On the other hand it looks like the GOP is falling apart ; if it splits in a populist and Corporate party the whole dynamic Congress changes.
Bobby Thomson
One of the ways to stop false equivalency is to stop making terrible comparisons ourselves. BLM protesters were trying to stop murders and no masses started copycatting bad behavior or walking into buildings. And the “innocent bystanders” story is total bullshit. They flew in from across the country to overturn the election and overthrow the government if necessary. No one wandered in from off the street.
Curious how you think that will happen by giving most of the lawbreakers a free pass. They all need to do time. This isn’t throwing an egg at the federal building. We need to make an example that attacks on the capitol will not be tolerated or they will become routine and D.C. will become a garrison state.
Bobby Thomson
@Jeffro: unfortunately, in the real world, there aren’t 50 votes to kill the filibuster
quakerinabasement
Science deniers think they’re Galileo.
Religious kooks want to be Moses.
And QAnon/MAGA/Militia types see themselves as Samuel Adams.
They imagine themselves the hero of their own story, bold and free-thinking, deserving of the adoration of all the people who weren’t as intrepid. They imagine they’re going to prove their own rightness and everyone will cheer. But they always forget the hard part of the story, the part where the status quo pushes back hard. Galileo was tortured. Moses spent his life wandering the desert and being betrayed by his own people. Sam Adams went broke.
When that part of the story gets real, the dropout rate closes in on 100 percent.
Mart
@rikyrah: Responding to BLM and others tearing down statues of treasonous assholes who died defending slavery, and the mess at the Portland Federal Building – Trump passed an EO that includes up to 10 years in jail, and or up to $250,000 in fines for tearing down federal statues and trespassing on Federal Property. So lock all the trespassers that pushed past the Capitol building’s barricade the fuck up. Just like their Dear Leader ordered. White fucking privilege on steroids. If just along for the ride, hit ’em with a week in jail, a grand fine, and 30 days community service.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/26/politics/trump-signs-monuments-executive-order/index.html
Sloegin
D’s didn’t get to use the filibuster the last 4 years. Mitch never brought any legislation to the floor. People are hung up on a romantic notion that the filibuster allows the lone Senator with a true and just cause to stop the machine. That somehow the minority will fight and stop the majority when the stars align and they’re in the right.
Horse Hockey.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Amir Khalid: I think “Wolverines” was their high school athletic mascot.
Uncle Cosmo
@RSA: At times it’s seemed more like
Every generation (if not more frequently) the Body Politic is in dire need of a High Colonic to clear out the Common Cloaca…
The Fat White Duchess
@J R in WV: Thank you.
Humanities Prof
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): We live in his district. He’s slime.
Miss Bianca
@Starfish: Oh, where did you see that photo?
Chris Johnson
@patrick II: Boebert denies it.
Nazis lie.
Film at 11.
Chris Johnson
@zhena gogolia: I’m interested. I think it matters, a lot. Also: we are not alone in battling fascism administered by Russia. Theirs is just more direct, as it would be here if Trump was the dictator.
way2blue
Everyone who trespassed into the Capital Building, interrupting Congress’s work, needs to be charged. Community service for the looky-loos perhaps. But it would need to be substantive service for a substantial time. A homeless shelter? A soup kitchen? For a year…
WaterGirl
@way2blue:
Yes, yes, and yes. No such thing as a little light treason.
johnnybuck
Mitch is trying to force the Democrats to break the filibuster to pass the organizing agreement. If you paid attention to the runoff election in Georgia, the biggest message the GOP used was “total control- no compromise” suggesting that Democrats were going to run roughshod over the government. He plans to run on it in 2 years, win back the majority and leave the new rules in place, reminding everyone that it was the Democrats that “broke the senate.”
burnspbesq
@Sister Golden Bear:
Yup. Overcharge everybody, and let them bargain down to something appropriate.
Don’t forget that a cop died. The folks who were looking to kidnap members of Congress are vulnerable under the Federal felony-murder statute, which carries the death penalty. If you can get them to plead to some lesser felony that carries serious jail time, cool.
WaterGirl
@johnnybuck: But if we don’t break the filibuster, then we won’t get much done, and the Rs will get elected again in 2022, and maybe we won’t even keep the house.
If you’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t, we have the luxury of doing what’s right. And that means getting stuff done to help the American people.
johnnybuck
@WaterGirl: I agree. I’m talking about what Mitch wants to do.