With Donald Trump’s second impeachment trial approaching, @BBCRosAtkins examines the decisions Republicans face https://t.co/szu8GXOUV8 pic.twitter.com/qVtuDIaP4o
— BBC News (UK) (@BBCNews) February 5, 2021
Yeah, well, it’s Sunday, we’ve got a few minutes, might as well brace ourselves in advance…
Arguments are set to begin Tuesday in the impeachment trial of Donald Trump on allegations that he incited the violent mob that stormed the U.S. Capitol. It appears unlikely that he'll be convicted. Five key questions about what to expect in the case. https://t.co/OIV7voGxht
— AP Politics (@AP_Politics) February 6, 2021
"We’re going into this seeing an opportunity to convict" https://t.co/QjDbCadsUq
— New York Magazine (@NYMag) February 5, 2021
… Heading into the trial, how optimistic are you?
I think we’re going into this seeing an opportunity to convict. I recognize that it’s going to be a challenge, but we think that the facts are so compelling and you have jurors who were also victims. They ran for their lives. They sent the same text messages to their loved ones that I sent to mine. There’s got to be a sense among them that this can’t ever happen again. One of the ways to make sure it doesn’t happen again is to hold accountable the guy that incited it.
What are you hearing about how your Republican colleagues are feeling?
There are my one-on-one friendships, where they’ll confide that they don’t like the guy, The guy’s got to go. He’s awful. There are the ones who say that they’re afraid of primaries. I’ve got a friend on the Judiciary Committee, he’ll come over to me after a heated exchange between both sides, and he’ll just kind of eye roll what he just said. It’s a matter of trying to determine who’s really afraid and making decisions out of fear, who can’t stand him and wants to show the resolve to do the right thing, who thinks it’s just a joke — and they’re in on the joke and they just have to do this because of the pro-wrestling effect — and then who actually believes in him? Those are the four categories that I have found among my colleagues.
But in the Senate, I think you’re going to see a serious case. We’re encouraged that McConnell seems open-minded and he wants a fair process. I think the fact that he’s not in office, the dynamics are going to be a little bit different in that no one can say this is politically motivated –– not that the last one was, but you can’t say this is an effort to undermine his presidency. His presidency is over. This is truly about trying to hold him accountable, to deter someone from doing this again, and to disqualify him from ever being able to do this again…
You’re a former prosecutor. What’s the most interesting thing about this case from that perspective?
I think the jurors as victims is the most unique thing you will ever see in a trial. Right? I mean, a Senate juror’s obviously different from a regular juror in that you don’t get to pick who you have on your jury. They self-selected by being in the Senate. But you’ve never seen a trial, would never see a trial, where the jurors are truly victims. That’s such a unique part of this…
Jerzy Russian
Jurors as victims, and still the most likely outcome is acquittal? Christ on a crosswalk…
Starfish
Jurors as victims but also accomplices. There are certain people who should not be allowed to be on the jury.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I have no hope of Trump being convicted. The Rs have already shown us who they are, and I believe them.
Perhaps the evidence will affect voters. That’s the best we can hope for.
germy
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/02/whats-trump-up-to.htm
“Let them fight.”
Kirk Spencer
@Jerzy Russian: Because they’re not only victims. They’re also co-conspirators and/or beneficiaries.
Oh, and don’t forget the present and future victims. The ones who realize that conviction won’t remove his power but instead will paint a big target on them instead. They’re risking their jobs and their lives. Sorry, “lives, fortunes, and sacred honor.”
debbie
If they really focus on Trump’s not acting while the violence was taking place, I think it might be harder for some of the representatives to let go of their reflexive support of him.
PsiFighter37
Fat chance there is a conviction. I think more GOPers will join Mittens this time, but it won’t be anywhere close to enough. I think even if Mitch came out and said loud and clear, we need to rid ourselves of Trump, I don’t think he would bring along enough other senators to convict. This is what happens when one political party (the GOP) is competitive only when their lizard-brain, highly disengaged base can be goaded into coming out and vote by their dogwhistler (Trump). Without him, the GOP is a permanent minority party even with gerrymandering, as they will continue to bleed in the suburbs.
karen marie
Republican senators getting what they want – recognition as victims of Democrats.
Media are setting the self-fulfilling prophecy of “they’ll never convict” again, and it pisses me off. Of course they won’t convict when they’ve been given an out. I’m slightly hopeful though that the pressure from the public learning the details of Trump’s direct actions preceding and during will change that dynamic but I won’t hold my breath.
Betty Cracker
If there was any way to have a secret vote, I’d have hope of a conviction. As it is, no way. Some portion are true believers, and the rest are cowards.
HinTN
@germy: Handing out $50 bills to people that pay $200k per year to be there? WTF is that about?
BlueGuitarist
Might “to deter someone from doing this again” be too abstract?
Republicans voting to acquit means they have no principled objection to President Biden doing the same, using armed force, killing people in the Capitol and taking over the Congress to make sure Kamala Harris can decide the electoral votes however she wants.
Republicans are shameless and believe rules only bind others. Would it help if Democrats frame this as Republican permission for Biden-Harris to do the same?
Also, did I miss Liz Cheney saying something specific about what she heard from Dick and his pentagon sources that made impeachment so clear to her?
germy
@HinTN:
Good question.
Maybe helps him feel like a big shot, I don’t know
Or maybe he’s hallucinating and thinks he’s in a strip club.
mali muso
Good morning, jackals. I don’t hold out much hope for common sense, decency or patriotism out of anyone willing to associate with the Republican Party. But truths need to be told; for posterity if nothing else.
NotMax
@germy
Signed in Sharpie?
“I put it up on ebay. Got $30 for it!”
//
johnnybuck
The way I see it is Democrats should spend the whole damn week rubbing their noses in it. Sure, they won’t convict but they might be shamed by it.
Villago Delenda Est
The GQp will again shit on their oaths of office as they did a year ago.
piratedan
makes me curious if Swalwell is going to introduce evidence in the Senate of the planning and coordination of the event. By that I mean, will he drop bombs and name names regarding members of the Senate who approved and advised of the plan. Drop names of the members of Congress who coordinated the search of the Capitol of the political targets? I can’t help but think that this took place, based on the circumstantial evidence that has been reported thus far. That a small fanatical branch of the GOP that had Trumps’ blessing worked with the more fanatical elements in the crowd to essentially bring about an attempted coup.
Now, I could see the GOP exonerating themselves despite all of the evidence brought forth (if said evidence exists) if it shows that coordination but would the media let that go? Or would it require an intuitive leap that they are unable to male considering their past few decades of behavior and framing?
Is it more likely that Swalwell simply aims for the King and leaves the rest to any potential DOJ investigation or Congressional committee?
PJ
No matter how damning the information is about how Trump and some Republican officials helped organize and incite the insurrection, and used their power to block efforts to end it, I don’t think there’s any chance you’d find 17 Republican Senators with the guts to convict.
But I think it would be salutary for all of the current evidence to be presented to the public in a trial, and I think it would be very useful to have on the record those Republican Senators who refuse to convict and who are up for re-election in 2022.
KenK
@Jerzy Russian: Stockholm Syndrome
debbie
@HinTN:
Bet he’s scrawled his signature on each of them. Precious keepsake! //
Brachiator
I just want it said, as clearly as possible, what Trump did, what his agitated supporters did, and what his enablers in the GOP Senate and House are continuing to do, and why it is a direct attack on democracy.
I want this to become part of the public record.
I want it to be known that Trump and Republican members of Congress are not fit to serve in any office.
Trump might not be convicted. But neither he nor his enablers can escape the judgement of history.
If the Senate fails to convict, the Republicans invite future sedition. Democracy and the Constitution are still at risk.
Betty Cracker
@germy: I don’t buy the theory toward the end of that Politico piece about Twitter doing DJT a favor with the ban because he was “overexposed.” It’s true that some people in the public eye can be overexposed — normal celebrities. But I don’t think overexposure is a thing for cult leaders. They always need to be in your face.
Jerzy Russian
@Kirk Spencer: Yes, good point. Some (many?) of them were in on it.
@PJ:
Yup, put it all out there for the sane parts of the country to see.
Zinsky
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Exactly right, Dorothy. Lady G (Lindsey Graham) and the other ReTrumplican eunuchs have already bowed and genuflected to the fat, orange con man and rapist and will absolve him of any crime that Democrats can throw at him, because, well he just “owns the Libs”, doesn’t he?? These black-hearted, soulless deviants have no conscience, no integrity and no common sense. All that is left is de-programming these dysfunctional, broken people and hope they fail to breed successfully. The Republican Party is broken beyond repair.
Villago Delenda Est
@Betty Cracker: Tiger Beat on the Potomac, and its successor, Axios, need to be shot to Praxis.
Mike in NC
Once they calculate the millions of dollars of damage caused by the fascist mob that ransacked the Capitol building, send the bill to the Trump Organization. Take them to court to force settlement. That’s all he knows about anyway.
Geminid
@BlueGuitarist: This impeachment trial may or may not deter a future President from attempting a similar adventure. Federal prosecutions and heavy sentences for egregious actors, especially organizers, will deter people from helping, though. Lower level actors need to be prosecuted as well. Lock’em up!
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Yeah, it’s saying “I never loved you anyway, I am better off without you” when someone leaves you.
Gvg
I don’t know how this will go. I am of course pretty cynical about Republicans.
What I find most interesting is social media like twitter sticking to their ban after he lost re election. I really feel that the reason they didn’t do it earlier is that they thought he would end their business if they did anything while he was still in office. Maybe even nationalize them. I know a President shouldn’t be legally able to do this, but Trump found ways to do so many other things that seem clearly illegal, I think they feared that spiteful moron. I also suspect some lawsuit threats from other sources finally outweighed Trump but none of it is sure. I just know it’s striking how differently they are acting now, not just with him, but all the other right wing purges of accounts suddenly and widespread. They needed to do a lot years ago and they didn’t. I think the election really made a difference. The fact that they didn’t change till the January certification also seems to point to an awareness that Trump was still fighting dirty.
wvng
“Republicans are shameless and believe rules only bind others. Would it help if Democrats frame this as Republican permission for Biden-Harris to do the same?”
I really hope this is pressed home.
NotMax
Won’t be surprised if the Rs try to throw a wrench into the works by arguing that as one of the appointed Managers is the delegate from the Virgin Islands and thus not a full-fledged Representative that she has no access to the Senate chamber and/or the Managers are an invalidly constituted body by dint of her being one (“She was ineligible to vote on the Article as presented to the whole House assembled”), their testimony tainted and inadmissable.
Amir Khalid
Whether Trump is convicted depends on Senate Republicans having the courage to vote for it. To go by Swallwell’s account, among others, they don’t. So I’m with the consensus on this: the best one can hope for is that the Democratic impeachment managers can get Trump convicted in the court of public opinion. That I’m fairly optimistic about.
In other news, I just got myself a pair of yellow nubuck Camel boots. They’re very decent copies of the Timberland Premium boot at about 1/4 the price. The Camel brand was previously owned by the cigarette maker of that name, which had a side business in outdoor gear; I’ve owned Camel boots before, and they were well-made. Any tips on suede/nubuck care?
cmorenc
@PJ:
Realistically, the biggest factor in the 2022 mid-terms will be how successful the Biden Admin and measures passed using our 50+VP Harris majority have been toward economic recovery and COVID safety / return toward normality, even if some health safety measures must remain in place. How the Capital insurrection and GOP officeholder / candidates’ response to it will come in to play is in highlighting their connection to the chaos and dysfunction pre-Biden versus competency and security post-Biden, pre-D Senate control and post D-Senate control. The tie-in with the Trump impeachment is the connection that can be made between members refusing to convict and the chaos and dysfunction during the Trump Admin – tie GOP Senators’ “no” vote on conviction to support of the dysfunction and ineffectiveness (in dealing with the economic and pandemic crisis) of the final year (especially) of the Trump Administration
That approach will frankly be far more viscerally persuasive with a critical slice of the electorate than making the central focus on more direct appeals to civics principles about democracy. Making the trains run on time is a prerequisite to appealing to civics.
dmsilev
@Mike in NC: The Post calculated the cost, so far, at $519 million. Mostly for deploying the military to protect DC, the state capitol security, and also all the spurious lawsuits, etc.
WaterGirl
@Jerzy Russian: I suggest something along these lines:
J R in WV
I like and respect Congressman Swalwell, and expect he and his other managers will do a good job presenting their case to the Senate and the Nation.
I think we will get more than just Mitt, but I too doubt we will get the 17 needed R votes to convict Trump, which is amazing.
I can’t imagine being in fear for my life a month ago and now being unwilling to vote to convict Trump for his obvious crimes. How despicable of the R Senators!
germy
Jim Hoft (gateway pundit dummy) was kicked off of twitter.
germy
@Villago Delenda Est:
Can we add “The Hill” to that list of journamalism enterprises?
WaterGirl
@J R in WV: If they were smart, they would all vote to convict. There is safety in numbers.
germy
@Amir Khalid:
Rinse the boot in warm water and damp dry with a clean towel. Fully let dry naturally! Most waterproof / breathable materials are treated with a water repellent finish, which keeps the outer material from becoming saturated with water so the breathable barrier can do its job.
Product Care – CAMEL
http://www.camelstore.com
satby
@NotMax: I was just wondering where you were in the earlier threads!
ETA: chili made with chorizo is muy bueno! I’m never making a meat chili any other way again.
jeffreyw
There is a reason they are going so hard after the apostates. They wish to strike fear into those senators who may be thinking convict. Their campaign seems to be working. Here’s to hoping that they may win the battle but lose the war.
Geminid
@Geminid: Will trump himself face prosecution? Maybe. But I keep in mind that he is a cunning career criminal with decades of experience evading the law. trump is no strategic thinker, but he knows how to get others to do his dirty work. A good example of this is how Roger Stone left the trump campaign in July 2016, for no apparent reason. Later, the Muellar investigation placed Stone at the center of the Russian collusion case, but could not break him.
Now, it turns out that Stone was in DC before the attack on the Capitol. Video shown by ABC and others shows Stone in front of a DC hotel that morning, with a number of Oathkeepers. One of them asks him, “So hopefully we’re going to get this today, right?” Stone replied, “We shall see.” Stone then caught a plane out of Dulles that afternoon. Stone is known to have longstanding ties to groups like Oathkeepers, and is reported to have been initiated into the Proud Boys.
satby
We really spend way too much time thinking about Republicans are going to do. I’m liking the focus shift to what Biden and the Democrats are doing, and that they pretty much have the Repugs number.
schrodingers_cat
@satby: Agreed. Let them dig their own graves. I am not in the prediction business. Let’s say this play out. I am glad that the Ds are doing this.
If the Hindutva monster was dealt with severely when it first raised its head. We wouldn’t be dealing with the depredations of Modi 2.0.
JMG
It’s not just cowardice that will cause those GOP Senators to vote to acquit, it’s belief. They approve of the attempted coup, they’re only unhappy it didn’t work. They want to reserve the right to overthrow democracy for themselves.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’ve hated the word “Cheney” for the better part of thirty years– back before DIck revealed his true self and was pretty much just another old R in a grey flannel suit, Lynn was a toxic force in the culture wars– but I gotta say, Liz “Dick Jr” seems to be holding her ground
Faithful Lurker
There were at least 2 U.S. Senators, beside Tommy Tuberville, at the insurrection organizing meeting at Trump’s hotel the night of Jan. 5. I want to know who they were.
germy
High five for Liz Cheney:
Amir Khalid
@germy:
Thanks. I went to the site and read the whole thing.
Jeffro
The Ds are going to get it all out there for the public, the world, and history to see (just like they did during the first impeachment). No way to know for sure if the GQP will let trumpov off the hook again – all we can do is fight the “they’re just gonna acquit him” framing.
SoupCatcher
In my pipe dreams, audio/video footage exists of 45 at the White House watching the self coup on TV and cheering for the death of Pence and Democratic congresspeople and that this is played during the impeachment trial.
NotMax
@satby
Vicariously savoring.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jeffro: At this point, the verdict in the Senate doesn’t matter. Trump is twice impeached. The story what he did in the aftermath of the election is going to come out. The GOP Senators will reveal themselves. That should be enough.
lurkypants
@Betty Cracker:
Watch the Rules Committee. They set the rules for the proceeding, which could include a secret ballot if a majority agrees to it. I wouldn’t be surprised if Mittens goes along and it passes.
I would think that they all looked at the vote on Liz Cheney and learned some lessons.
germy
@SoupCatcher:
No video (yet) but I read eyewitness accounts that he was thrilled by the action, and couldn’t understand why the aides around him didn’t share his enthusiasm.
West of the Rockies
@HinTN:
Too cheap to hand out C notes.
Jeffro
@Omnes Omnibus: well, it matters…it’s just not the only thing that matters.
But yeah, when I said the Ds are going to get it all out there and you said the story is going to come out…I think we’re pretty well in agreement there. =)
jonas
?? I presume he’s handing out tips to the staff — I don’t think *members* of Mar-A-Lago really have use for $50. (OTHO, I can imagine Trump being oafish enough to really walk up to some Palm Beach millionaire and tuck a benjamin in his pocket and tell him to get a haircut or something.)
RaflW
There s no policy-based reason that the GOP needs remain a permanent minority party. They’ve painted themselves into this dank, cramped, armed and dangerous corner. That they cannot fathom a path out shows how moribund and decayed they are, but even that situation isn’t inherently fixed.
There is simply no one, or no nucleus of people, with an affirmative vision of where conservatism could go. I’m not someone who says “we need two principled parties to have balance in America.” That’s sentimentality for a past that wasn’t even what it appeared to be.
But I firmly reject that the Republicans are stuck. They are where they want to be. And what they want is deeply un-American, fundamentally antithetical to the (never so far reached) ideals of this nation. They must be consigned to the electoral wilderness.
Kicking their asses with an impeccably executed trial is part of that work, even if by a failed supermajority, Trump isn’t convicted.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jeffro: Since I think it is a foregone conclusion we won’t get 67 votes to convict, the other aspects matter. Know who did what and know which GOP Senators are okay with it is what makes a difference going forward.
Subsole
@Gvg:
Think of the capitol attack as 9/11. Imagine 9/11 was planned on your platform by people you knew full well for years were being radicalized on and in many cases BY your platform. Now imagine you have to go sit and answer questions from people who were in the building when it came down.
That prospect may have had a motivating influence.
It would damn sure motivate me…
@germy: Oh thank goodness. I remember when that dim fucker was putting out doctored x-rays of the Ferguson cop…I bet Charles J. over at LGF is over the friggin moon.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@jonas: in the video, it looks to me like he hans something to one person so… maybe a tip? more notable, fuckface is still refusing to wear a mask, he’s the only one in the video without one
Subsole
@Amir Khalid: I know you shouldn’t step on blue suede, but that’s about it…
Subsole
@satby: That sounds absolutely delicious. Beans or no?
Amir Khalid
@Omnes Omnibus:
Abetting insurrection is federal crime, no? I do wonder how many R Congresspeople will find themselves implicated in the evidence presented this week.
Another Scott
Conviction is a long shot at this point, but this trial is likely to be very different from the one last year. There will be evidence and witnesses and all the rest.
The House brief is compelling, as one might expect (80 page .pdf):
I think it’s going to be hard for a lot of people to vote not to convict him…
Cheers,
Scott.
Amir Khalid
@Subsole:
I’ll try to remember that. :-)
Subsole
@Geminid: Mr Stone and his new frat may find going head to head with a DoJ staffed by people who are NOT Billiam the Barr-barian a very different proposition.
Here’s hoping…
debbie
Already answered.
WaterGirl
@Jeffro:
Exactly! All that framing does is pre-excuse them for being cowards. The pressure should be on them to do the right thing.
Subsole
@schrodingers_cat:
Hey, I don’t want to impose, but is there a good breakdown on what is happening in India? I got a pretty good explainer on the farmers’ protests, but a lot of it is still murky to me. Like how caste and race fit together. Any reliable sources you can point me to?
opiejeanne
@Faithful Lurker: I don’t know, but I’d guess Hawley was one.
Low Key Swagger
@Omnes Omnibus: Right? I mean, there is little to no downside to having the evidence laid out for all to see. We either get a conviction, or we have tons of material with which to dissuade moderates from voting R for at least a few elections.
Subsole
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The Cheneys are like the McCains – spiteful enough to grow a grudge, and stubborn enough to die holding it.
debbie
@germy:
Also, didn’t the National Guard commander and Capitol Police Chief (or whatever he’s called) say their requests were ignored. Didn’t surrounding states’ NGs offer assistance but didn’t receive speedy responses?
Amir Khalid
Test:
Es schien mir, dass sein Bart viel länger in den letzten fünf Minuten geworden war, während er im nächsten Zimmer war.
germy
@debbie:
From what I recall, Pence had to step in after Trump refused.
This should all be in the impeachment testimony.
germy
@Subsole:
Worst episode of the Beverly Hillbillies ever.
Baud
OT. I had not heard of this proposal before.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Subsole:
Heh, as people talk about the potential split in the Republican Party, I think of Nixon’s observation about Barbara Bush: She knew how to hate. I don’t think anyone in the hypothetical Romney wing of the party knows how to hate. The Cheneys do, but I think they’ll always hate Democrats more than trump. Kasich can hold a grudge, but I don’t think he has the profile to build a party around, or if he’s willing to really go against the party, i.e. to make a kamikaze independent run against an R nominee for Portman’s seat.
I think John McCain was overrated his entire political career, certainly from ’99 on, but I think if he hadn’t died we might be looking at a different political landscape. He knew how to hate.
SFAW
@Another Scott:
Not if former JAG-Officer Lindsey Graham has any say in the matter. He threatened something, like getting the FBI (or maybe just Christopher Wray) brought in, to have him/them testify about … something
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@SFAW: yeah, I still can’t quite figure out how that’s supposed to be a threat against Democrats.
SFAW
“We’re encouraged that Lucy seems sincere and will let me/us actually kick that football.”
Note to Amir: Talkin’ about ‘Murican football, not the kind the commies play.
germy
@SFAW:
Graham needs to be questioned about the little phone call he made: “Can you please throw out some votes so my guy wins?”
Amir Khalid
@SFAW:
I suspect Senator Graham might want to be careful about what threats he may need to carry out.
SFAW
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
As usual, because “reasons.”
Amir Khalid
@SFAW:
I too have read Peanuts.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Wowser, is that ever a
goodgreat idea!SFAW
@germy:
There’s nothing you could say
To tear me away from my guy
There’s nothing you could do
‘Cause I’m stuck like glue to my guy
I’m stickin’ to my guy like a stamp to a letter
Like the birds of a feather
We stick together
I’m telling you from the start
I can’t be torn apart from my guy
There’s nothing you can do
Could make me untrue to my guy (my guy)
There’s nothing you could buy
Could make me tell a lie to my guy (my guy)
germy
SFAW
@Amir Khalid:
Yes, I know, and I knew you knew what I meant. Just ein kleiner Spass, mein Freund.
Immanentize
@jonas:
1). Ben is on the $100 bill.
2). Do you not know about the Yippie NY Stock Exchange $1 bill prank which spread utter chaos? Rich people will grab at anything — See: Trump, Donald J.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy:
does he appear anywhere but Fox and Fox business these days
ETA: I see today’s appearance was on CBS.
Baud
ABC News
laura
I’m looking forward to the trial -and burnishing my distain for John Roberts. Lay it all out. Reveal every scrap of evidence for us and all the world to see. Force Republicans to choose – democracy or autocracy.
Amir Khalid
Liverpool are trailing visitors Manchester City 0-1 in the English Premier League. I haz a sad.
debbie
@WaterGirl:
I’m not so sure. I was included in that Equifax hack, so I am hypervigilant in staying on top of that information; even so, I don’t think the government has any more business in my finances than the credit reporting agencies.
Another Scott
Good, good.
“aim is to send monthly” means the numbers are totals for a year. Not a huge amount, but it will help families that need to pay for child care to hope to get back to work.
Make the Teabaggers vote NO if they dare. Show voters that Democrats are fighting for them.
(via nycsouthpaw)
Cheers,
Scott.
danielx
@germy:
The dumbest man on the internet kicked off Twitter? Say it ain’t so!
Lapassionara
@Baud: that is a narrow majority? Seems the opposite to me.
StringOnAStick
It drives me nuts that every “tRump unlikely to be convicted” headline fails to include “ because Republicans will refuse to no matter what evidence is presented”. Perhaps add to that “because they are craven power junkies.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Lapassionara: If it is a pro-Democratic majority, 56% is narrow; if pro-Republican, it would be a vast majority. You need to work on your critical reading skills.
germy
He’s picking every last bit of meat from their bones.
danielx
I’ve been trying to find this for a while…
Another Scott
@Lapassionara:
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
Baud
@Lapassionara:
The more interesting thing is that the numbers have improved over the last month.
Lapassionara
@Another Scott: Heh!
Omnes Omnibus
@danielx: Aside from a wall of text, what is that?
germy
danielx
@Omnes Omnibus:
Commentary from Feminist news….and a clear explication of why his followers adore follow Trump in spite of all logic. They don’t give a shit what he says or does.
Kent
If McCain hadn’t died the Senate would still be in GOP hands and McConnell would still be majority leader.
So yes…a MUCH different political landscape.
Another Scott
@danielx: Yeah, that’s fine. We all know that there are people like that.
– Isaac Asimov
The question is, what do we (the public, the press, the schools, captains of industry, the courts, the legislatures, the executives) do about it.
“Hur, hur, stupid liberals don’t understand…” does not give us a path forward. We cannot simply say that everyone who voted for him is irredeemable, or that somehow fighting some of them makes them all stronger. It has to be a smart, multifaceted approach. Sometimes it will be gigantic lawsuits, sometimes it will be love and understanding and reminding about better times in the past, sometimes it will be turning off Fox News and turning on the Parental Controls….
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
lowtechcyclist
@PJ:
This. Since acquittal is a foregone conclusion, the goal should be to put the Senate Republicans on trial.
Get stuff into the record so the 2022 ads write themselves. And start running them the day after the acquittal vote. We don’t need to run them nonstop for the next 21 months, but we do need to rub this into voters’ minds while the acquittal is fresh and voters’ attitudes about it are still malleable.
schrodingers_cat
@Subsole: What do you want to know, can you be more specific? In India the divide is not race as understood in American or western terms, it is region, religion, language and caste.
germy
The best defense is a good offense.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Baud:
Fantastic proposal.
The current algorithms for scoring suck due to opacity, arbitrary hits that bear no relationship to borrower likelihood to repay, and are so similar across all agencies that it looks like they’ve formed a breakable trust.
At the end of the day, they simply serve as a kind of an inhibitor or tax on average borrowers who had the audacity to experience lean periods where there were greater obligations outstanding (while paying every dollar due, on time), or got laid off for a time, or inadvertently missed a payment (particularly medical debt).
The bureaus want to aggregate data on individual consumer loans and repayment, fine. They really need to stay out of predictive scoring.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Jerzy Russian: I know. What the hell is wrong with these guys? It’s like Mittens, the guy we all mock for being a robot, is the only one with any basic human emotions like a desire for revenge when someone tries to harm him.
Amir Khalid
Liverool draw level with a splendid Mo Salah penalty. 1-1.
germy
Finally, I see Sean Hannity’s name:
artem1s
that would be the case hear as well if this were a criminal court with a jury instead of the Senate. We were all victims of the events leading up to and after Jan 6, even if half the country doesn’t understand that.
Geminid
@Amir Khalid: Republican members of Congress may have been involved in the planning and execution of the insurrection, but it could take a while to “get the goods” on them. I hope investigators are taking a close look at Republican staffers, though, because that’s likely where connections will be found.
Alabama Senator Tuberville was clearly involved in the Senate challenge to the Electoral Vote certification, and was at the gathering at trump’s hotel “townhouse” the night before. While there probably was assault planning going on around him and in rooms upstairs, Tuberville may have just been schmoozing. Shrewd plotters might think it unwise to bring an oaf like him into a criminal conspiracy.
Another Scott
@danielx: Remember that they were expecting a mass of people in Tulsa on 6/20. They got 6200. Remember that they were expecting hundreds of thousands in DC on 1/6. They got 20,000 or so.
These are small, noisy minorities.
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@debbie: One central place, rather than 3 places. And the 3 places charge consumers for their information and there are three places where you have to clear up issues when they occur. For profit vs. government, on this one I choose government.
Amir Khalid
@germy:
Except I don’t think Mike Pillow actually has a good offence to put on the field.
WaterGirl
@Lapassionara: I know, if that was a 13 point difference in a political race – especially one that favored the Republican – they would be declaring it “game over”.
Amir Khalid
@Amir Khalid:
City score twice in quick succession. 1-3. That’s it. Liverpool’s League title defence is over.
WaterGirl
@danielx: I googled and found it at this link:
What the heck is MWC Board?
Immanentize
@Omnes Omnibus: A very long exegesis on Cleek’s one sentence law.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I turned on MSNBC for two minutes to see if there were any headlines, enough time to hear Alex Witt put on her concern troll voice for Tim Ryan: “What about those voters who just say it’s time to move on…. President Biden has gotten a lot criticism for his Covid relief bill, people say it’s just too big….”
How does she still have a job?
Amir Khalid
@Amir Khalid:
Liverpool 1-4 Man City. Please excuse me while I sob.
StringOnAStick
@danielx: “They consider liberals weak…a different species” .
That right there goes to what Josh Marshall said about the Q movement as a fascist plan to dehumanize their enemies and thus make it easier to kill us.
WaterGirl
Nancy LeTourneau at her blog:
Josh Hawley Deserves to be Cancelled
That’s one helluva single sentence, is it not?
Hawley raised a fist
in support of a mob
that was about to storm the U.S. Capitol
in support of a lie
he had helped promote
about a stolen election.
artem1s
@piratedan:
more likely state AG investigations. And no, I don’t think there is anyway Swallwell can/will allow the evidence to be constrained to the rally and that particular call to march on the Capitol. I don’t think he’s intending to draw a map for the Senate vote, but there are plenty of other people who are more than willing to pick up the breadcrumbs that are dropped and see where they lead.
the Senate trial stopped being solely about a Trump conviction a while ago.
cain
@schrodingers_cat:
Meena Harris has been stirring that pot like nobody’s business. Their lame ass attempts to silence her are amusing – but she’s beyond their reach. I’m glad she identifies as Indian !
geg6
@danielx:
Living among many of these assholes, I can attest that this is absolutely the truth. I confound them because I’m a liberal who never backs down to them. Makes it hard to socialize in many local bars and restaurants (which I haven’t been safe to do for the past year anyway), but I have no qualms about speaking up when I feel the need.
artem1s
@wvng:
they believe going on with the Senate trial is Biden-Harris doing the same thing already. how do you think 45 of them justified voting to keep the Senate trial from happening? they have been screeching for over a year that the first impeachment was a democratic coup.
Subsole
@SFAW:
If you do this, we will drag people up on the stand and spend our time blabbering about Seth Rich muder conspiracies.
Basically, he’s saying they’ll turn it into an utterly derailed circus.
That’s the threat.
Now, is threatening to do what you’re gonna do anyway actually a threat??
WaterGirl
Nancy LeTourneau goes on to connect the dots:
In an attempt to silence Kaepernick, that simple act was turned into an attack on the flag and military troops who serve this country. In other words, to “cancel” Kaepernick, the opposition had to shamelessly lie. Who can forget how a white guy running for the Senate deconstructed that lie?
Gvg
@Baud: I hate to mention it, but I think Americans innately take threats to Americans more seriously than we do threats to foreigners. More of us understand what happens here than we do in a country few of us know much about. I think that played a part in Trump getting away with threatening foreign countries. Democrats had to explain who did what too much and also who was who.
I suspect most countries tend that way.
Subsole
@germy:
If you keep lining up to get screwed, are you really a sucker?
yellowdog
@Mike in NC: I read somewhere that, legally, the people who requested the rally permit are financially responsible for the damage.
yellowdog
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: He specifically threatened Harris, IIRC.
Brachiator
@Gvg:
Most Americans simply don’t care about other countries.
Also, for the MAGA crowd, America being Number One meant that Trump had the right to kick the shit out of other countries. He always pushed resentment, the notion that every country he singled out was either cheating us or treating us unfairly, and so deserved whatever pain he applied.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@WaterGirl:
The problem for credit bureaus is that if they get shuttered by government, they’re roundly despised by so many people that senators and reps gain no cred even among conservative voters by loudly taking up for TU, Experian and Equifax.
”First they came for the credit ratings agencies and nobody cared because fuck those guys, we all hate them….”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: I think it was just a week ago ABC got slapped all around twitter for hyping that their poll said a third of USians disapproved of something. People pointed out the rather obvious math and ABC pulled the tweet
debbie
@germy:
For suing him?
Subsole
@schrodingers_cat: I was mostly looking for social context.
In America, race seems generally paramount. What is the hierarchy in India? Is caste analogous to race here in the states? Is region more important than religion? That kind of underlying social context is eluding me.
I get the sense that the Hindutva is a resentment based identity movement like Republicans, but what are the blocs? Is it a wealthy brahmin thing, or like a middle class anti Islam thing, or what? Is it more one caste against another?
It seems they also want to reestablish Babar’s Empire, or something? Is that guff, or do they actually want to go invade their neighbors?
Again, don’t want to impose. Anything that can remedy my general ignorance, whether you or other sources is appreciated!
Ruckus
@HinTN:
They get to see the great dump, for only 200 large a year and here he is, handing out free money. He must have lots.
It’s symbolic of something for nothing. Every dollar is earned don’t you know, and so handing someone a $50 is just greasing palms.
Also they don’t think like someone who actually earns their money with actual physical/mental work and effort, whatever they do is secondary to the money coming in.
LivingInExile
Al Jazeera usually has interesting articles and opinion pieces on Indian politics.
Subsole
@Amir Khalid: True.
But if he can monetize it, fundraise off it, he may be able to stave off disaster for a time.
Ruckus
@johnnybuck:
Shame is a normal human emotion, if they have that at all they have turned it down to below 1 where it’s not noticeable.
If they had shame turned to 5 they wouldn’t be who they are, they wouldn’t do what they do.
johnnybuck
@Ruckus: Well… I did say “might”
Lacuna-Synecdoche
Eric Swalwell via Anne Laurie @ Top:
I hope so, but …
I think getting 55 votes to convict will be easy enough. Even 60 doesn’t seem like much of a stretch.
But 67? I’ll go with my usual betting advice re: the GQP – always expect it, in aggregate, to make the worst possible choice, and you’ll win the bet at least 5 times out of 6.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
Most people, including myself, don’t even know what questions to ask. I have some small idea about the role of religion and caste, but not much idea about the role of region and language.
I also don’t have a feel for how the opposition was stifled, or how resentments were stirred. But I see how nationalism, especially ethnic and religious based nationalism is being sold around the world.
ETA: I guess in an acknowledgement of how little international news gets through to Americans, I was astounded to see a recent story about how the Internet was finally being restored to Kashmir, after 18 months.
Geminid
@danielx: You would appreciate political scientist Rachel Bitecofer’s article “Hate is on the Ballot,” in the February 2020 New Republic. She analyzes American politics through the lens of “negative partisanship,” similar to the ideas expressed in the piece you put up. Bitecofer has some good sociological data on polarization, and analysis of the 2018 midterms that is applied to the the general election in prospect.
Omnes Omnibus
@Geminid: Admit it. You are Rachel Bitecofer.
Lacuna-Synecdoche
Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Nah, they Trump more. People always hate those who they think betrayed them more than they hate the enemies themselves.
For example, we imprison POW’s, but we hang traitors.
Geminid
@Omnes Omnibus: No, just a fan. You could call me a RastaBitecoferian.
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
Plus, shitforbrains is not smart enough to have his own communication network, that takes effort and some level of intelligence, two of the many things he lacks. Take away social media, and he’s handing out $50s at his club to get their attention and earn their devotion.
karen marie
@Baud: Make it be so!
debbie
@WaterGirl:
I have no problem with CFPB oversight, but that’s just too much data for one entity to maintain. Plus, the CFPB has plenty of other worries to deal with.
Kathleen
@WaterGirl: Thank you for the link. I don’t read Washington Monthly so I lost track of her other blog. I read her a few years ago and always appreciated her thoughtful posts so now she’s back in my rotation and on my Twitter Favorites!
karen marie
@lowtechcyclist: I’d say it’s less foregone by the minute. A majority of those polled are already in favor of conviction. The numbers will only go up once the trial starts. I won’t be surprised if he’s not convicted but I’m not convinced he won’t be.
karen marie
@germy: “He will be suing” overstates the story. First he has to figure out what to sue them for. He has no cause of action.
Ruckus
@jonas:
To the people that hang around someone like trump, everything and everyone is for sale. Now $50 is below their price but as a gesture it’s welcomed and they will take it and understand. They are being way over charged for crappy food, to be around such power. These are the people that voted for him. They don’t see him in the same way we do. To them he’s a successful businessman, just like them and he ran for and “won” the presidency. We see shitforbrains, they see success. This my pillow guy is trump with different products. Both products are crap, just different crap. How many of his monied followers are the same deluded, moronic, self involved blood suckers, maybe not quite as crazy and deluded but really not all that different? This is the modern version of snake oil salesmen, except they sell oil from different snakes now.
karen marie
@Ruckus: I think it’s more about a refutation of the chatter that he’s broke/not a billionaire. How many 50 dollar bills would he be handing out? Not many. But it impresses the not-rich fools.
Geminid
@karen marie: Mitch McConnell definitely is ruthless enough to vote for conviction if he thought it best for his party, and knew he could bring enough Senators with him. Maybe not likely, but possible, I think.
LuciaMia
That is one scary article. The only thing missing is some creepy religiosity.
janesays
@Starfish: Agreed, but that whole U.S. Constitution thing gets in the way of trying to nullify those jurors.
janesays
Unfortunately, not only will he not be convicted, I’m not even necessarily sure there will be meaningful electoral consequences for Republicans because of it. I remember a year ago thinking that the sham trial McConnell ran was going to destroy the GOP in November, but I’ve seen no real evidence that it played any meaningful role in how people voted last year. Put another way, the people who considered the impeachment a big deal were already voting for Democrats anyway. I guess it added to the totality of the failure of Trump’s presidency, but I don’t think that’s why he lost. Keep in mind, that election took place less than 10 months after the trial. We’ll be finished with this new trial by the end of the month, and by the end of the year it will be a distant memory. By November 2022, a solid majority of Americans will have to be reminded that there was an impeachment trial held a year and a half earlier.
None of this is to say that it shouldn’t be prosecuted in the most publicly daming way possible. I’m just not sure how effective it will be at actually changing anything. The system is unfortunately quite broken, and impeachment is next to useless in terms of imposing meaningful consequences on presidents who ignore the rule of law.
Brachiator
@danielx:
Yeah, this sadly makes a lot of sense.
JoyceH
I’ve been really struck by that report (mentioned upthread) that the Trump DC hotel has raised its prices (tripled!) for the time period around March 4. That’s the day when the most deeply steeped in conspiracy QAnoners believe that Trump will be inaugurated, and the price hike tells me that Trump claiming ignorance of QAnon was BS. SOMEONE in the Trump Org is widely conversant with the state of the Q mythology, and wants to profit from it. But this surely must mean that they expect Trump’s supporters to return to DC for this event.
Which, you know, kind of sounds to me like Trump’s attempts to illegally seize power are STILL ONGOING. I sure hope that someone (to include the impeachment managers and the FBI) is keeping an eye on that!
Jeffro
@germy: the best offense is a…really stupid offense?
I wish this guy would just go back to crack. I’m sorry but it’s true.
Lacuna-Synecdoche
@WaterGirl:
The original might be from reddit.
Unless that commenter copied it from somewhere else too – but it’s competently formatted instead of looking like a cut & paste job, and it’s the earliest copy I found (from July 30, 2020) so I suspect it’s the first posting of it.
rikyrah
@WaterGirl:
??????
Dopey-o
@danielx:
Hmm. The link you provided doesn’t seem to work, so,
Could you at least provide the freaking link? the “Create link button” is right there on the comment box.
And yes, i tried the link to the original Reddit. Paywalled. Thanks for nuthin’.