Anyone with a smattering of common sense knows that some form of proof of vaccination would be very helpful in keeping people safe in mass gatherings and on airlines. Therefore, the Q party is hard against it, with moron DeSantis leading the way. Steve M. has all the details, but this should give you a hint of the reasonable discourse around the topic:
Anyway, in the spirit of research, I signed up for New York’s version of a vaccine passport, the Excelsior Pass. This is designed to prove that you had a recent negative COVID test, or that you’re vaccinated. It asked me my name, address and date of birth, then quizzed me about when I was vaccinated. It found me quite easily and correctly said that I’m not eligible yet. There are obviously issues with universal access to the pass, but anyone with a smartphone should find it a quick and easy process. The brownshirts have yet to break down my door, but Lindsey Graham loaned me his AR-15 just in case.
DeSantis thinks he can legislate that places like Disneyworld can’t demand a vaccine passport. Fuck around and find out is my thought on that, because I imagine that corporations like Disney, Delta and the NFL, who want to take full advantage of the post-vaccine boom, will be very interested in passports. I also assume that civilized states like New York will eventually crack down on the unvaccinated at airports, with onerous, enforced quarantine requirements that include significant fines if ignored.
Vaccination is becoming more popular — 69% in a recent Pew poll say they’ll get it, and 77% say it will benefit the economy. This is another issue where Qpublicans are on the wrong side, and Democrats should hammer them for it.
Edited to add: Kevin Drum has a good overview of how the free-market solution of vaccine passports is more than likely constitutional. Also, note his new blog address.
I heard you could get the vaccine pass on your forehead or on one of your hands.
Good luck trying to get into other countries without proof of a Covid vaccination. DeSatan can whine as much as he likes, I predict you won’t be able to get into the EU, Japan, Korea, or China without one very soon.
It’s typical GQP pandering, in this case to antivaxers and the kind of crazy people who are sure any kind of government ID is the mark of the beast.
Your kids can’t get into school without proof of vaccinations. If you don’t want one, businesses don’t have to let you in.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@prufrock: Agree, and DeSantis et. al. will certainly submit to whatever airlines want for their personal travel. They just want to make noise about it, because being a whiner is the main talent of the Q party.
They really are ahistorical and illiterate — tossed in with the anti-science and poor math skills.
(Detour! Could ilhistorical …. no, I gather it would be inhistorical … be a thing, and how would it differ from ahistorical?)
I’m gonna take a wild guess that the person running the Twitter account for the fucking Libertarian Party of fucking Kentucky isn’t Jewish and therefore they are cordially invited to go fuck themselves.
(Not that the statement would be okay coming from a Jewish person either, BUT STILL.)
Mrs H and I get Moderna #2 jab tomorrow. I would gladly get my papers.
Give it a catchy monicker with some nominal prestige.
The VIP card.
Virus Inoculation Proof.
@Alison Rose: The yellow star wasn’t exactly issued by the govt for improved access to cuddles and things.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Ah, Teresa Camoriano and her Kentucky Libertarians.
I’ve already been real-name shaming her dumb ass as she’s been posting her “this is just like the Third Reich” bullshit on local media Facebook feeds. The woman is absolutely shameless with her hysteria, but you have to make fun of her early before themes take hold.
This Post article gives a nice overview of the complexities. The Biden administration clearly recognizes the challenges, including the reluctance of some Americans to trust anything coming out of the federal government.
@scav: You want ahistorical, unless you want unhistorical. Ain’t no such thang as inhistorical.
How being vaccinated against the coronavirus is like being a Jew under the Third Reich escapes me. But then, I have always considered political objections to public-health measures — against Covid-19 or any other health threat — inherently nonsensical.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
ETA – Theresa Camoriano
Spouse wants his vax record on a tee shirt…..a shirt that he’d never take off.
Lots of hair salons, restaurants, etc. are national and regional chains now. DeSantis wants to tell the grand holy businessmen that they can’t require employee vaccinations in his state? Fuck around and find out is right.
@HinTN: Well, in terms of actual words, sure! But how prosaic. I was rabbit holing after possible different meanings between the a- besuffixed and the in-/il- besuffixed tribes.
I believe the technical academic term is cretins.
Dumbasses also acceptable in more casual intercourse.
“I shall have a word with the printer.” — John Adams, 1776
I see the bigger problem as forgeries. I have a postcard I got which shows my vaccine history, but there is no way to verify the authenticity. I assume there is a record of my getting the vaccine somewhere in the state health records, but how do you allow access without violating HIPPA rules. It is a thorny issue.
Can’t they just send something to our Bill Gates chips in our heads?
I suggest that taking off on Quakers (hello Tricky Dick), the Q party people could be called Quackers.
I can’t find anything via google, but my wife had lunch with her Q sisters yesterday and one of them said she will not wear paper masks because they have tiny worms in them.
I love that the Kentucky Libertarians don’t get that the vaccine passport would give you freedom, so more or less the opposite of the yellow stars. (Not to mention how offensive the entire idea of the comparison is.)
Hah! The Bill Gates microchip is already in the vaccine, the vaccinated already have the vaccine passport. Too bad Q-suckas!
Why don’t they just use the Bill Gates microchips?
(Joke stolen from someone else, but I don’t recall who.) (Other than Ocotillo.) (Or citizen dave.)
The Moar You Know
Yes. Yes they will, libertarian choad. And the libs are building “COVID freedom showers” for you and your refusenik brethren.
As far as DeSantis trying to get Disneyland to NOT require proof of vaccination, I wish him all the luck in the world. Fuck around and find out is right.
If he were actually so stupid as to try such a thing, and he’s not, a couple of thugs dressed as Minnie and Mickey would in short order be explaining the economic facts of life to him with a blowtorch and a pair of pliers.
I’d pay good money to watch that on pay-per-view, if you’re listening, Disney. He’s got absolutely nothing and knows it. This is just performative art for the rubes.
Quick, snap up the NFT for your postcard before its cost soars into the stratosphere.
I’d like to ask DeSantis the legal difference between a restaurant insisting that patrons observe its dress code and Disneyworld insisting that visitors be vaccinated. In both cases it’s a business exercising its right to decide who may enter its premises, which is private property.
@The Moar You Know
And here all along I was under the impression Da Goof is the Disney designated mob enforcer.
@scav: I don’t know if ahistorical is the right word for “don’t know much about history”. Plus its kind of a snobbish criticism these days. (Well, actually the Romans you see in the movies are nothing like the actual Romans we’ve reconstructed through history texts. That character would never have had a cell phone. They weren’t around until 2000 years later.)
I think what they are is one big, continuous continuity error in our national comic book series.
Just had my first Moderna jab this weekend in Richmond, VA; as I was driving back home I felt a tingling travel up my left arm and on the left side of my face, which I assumed were the nanobots implanting the upgrades and uploading the info to the matrix…
@Amir Khalid: I’m wondering how a government can’t require you to show ID with proof of vaccination before boarding an airline, but can require you to show RealID.
The Moar You Know
@NotMax: Never thought of that, suspect you’re right. Suspect governors like DeSantis might get the VIP enforcement squad treatment. But yeah, it’ll probably be Goofy.
And WAY TO GIVE ME NIGHTMARES FOR THE NEXT SIX YEARS. Goofy as the enforcer has an absolutely terrifying edge to it. Little stutter with that crazed grin and eyes not quite staring in front as he NAILS YOUR FEET TO THE FLOOR.
@Ken: let alone all those IDs they want to demand before voting!
WW2 documentary mini-series from Britain running in the background. Narrator, talking about Pearl Harbor, insists on pronouncing Oahu a OH-ahoo.
@NotMax: They wouldn’t use the big-name characters as enforcers, especially since they own the rights to pretty much everything now. Send a couple of Imperial Stormtroopers, or —
Um. Does Disney own Umbrella Academy? Because Hazel and Cha-Cha would be perfect.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
So “Hitler vaccinated the Jews against infectious disease”, my god, how stupid are these people?
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
@scav: Short version: they’re just dumber than a bag of rocks?
Or, they’re effing stupid?
And mere seconds after my posting that he pronounced Wake Island as Wah-kay Island.
For those of us who have ever traveled to West Africa and had to show our proof of yellow fever vaccination to 1. obtain a visa, 2. board the plane, 3. be permitted entry to the country, this does not sound unreasonable. Clearly the technology will be different than a little yellow paper booklet, but the concept is not new.
Knowing my parents’ bent towards anti-vaxx hysteria combined with their Xtian fears of the “mark of the best”, I can hardly wait for the fun times discussions! ugh.
Ohio Son has had a vaccine passport his entire life. I don’t remember if he came home from the hospital with it or if his pediatrician gave it to us at his very first visit.
It’s a small booklet, issued by the state of his birth, Maryland, about the size of a real passport, with a dark blue cover (naturally). The inside pages have a section for each of the standard vaccines (MMR, DPT, etc.), with boxes in which the person administering the vaccine records the brand, lot number and date of each shot.
When I registered him for public school, I brought it along to show he’d had all the required vaccinations (along with our house deed to prove we lived in the district).
It’s been superseded by Son’s EMR (electronic medical record) but I still have it, somewhere.
And now the three of us have little cards with our Covid vaccine brands, lot numbers and dates. Which will be shared with our PCPs and entered into our EMRs. Because it helps with our overall medical care for our doctors to have our complete histories.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Being a Medievalist I propose we go ye olde school and make anti-vaccers wear rags, ring a bell and continuously chant “unclean” when in public.
@NotMax: You remind me of something that I’ve occasionally wondered: When they say “BBC Received Pronunciation,” received from whom?
What they’re really worried about is something like a vaccine passport interfering with their ability to freeload. They want to be able to avoid getting vaccinated themselves while depending on herd immunity for protection. Of course “how dare you require everyone to participate in an activity that benefits the community as a whole” isn’t a popular position, so they have to pretend they’re being oppressed in the hope of engendering sympathy.
So getting a vaccine that would *allow you to do more and return to normal life/travel/work* is like being stigmatized as a Jew under Nazi rule? Um, ok. What do you call Godwin’s Law, but via a bass-ackwards analogy?
I do favor having people who refuse to be vaccinated having to get some sort of documentation, tattoo, implant, whatever, stating that they will be denied any and all medical treatment relating to Covid illness if they contract the virus. They shouldn’t have any problem with that, seeing as it’s all fake and everything.
@The Moar You Know
Loofahs Macht Frei.
I once heard a British YouTube presenter speak of “Tuckson”, Arizona.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
A tweet from Mike Godwin, he of the eponymous Law:
Received from the upper classes of southern England.
@Ohio Mom: All of my Spawns also have a document containing their vaccine history. It’s dark blue, with the Arizona state seal on it, and it reads in big letters, “LIFETIME IMMUNIZATION RECORD”. It’s kept in the same file folder as the passports, birth certificates, Social Security cards, etc.
I will support companies that require vaccine passports for entry. I am sure someone will keep a list.
Samuel Pepys? Dr. Johnson? That poseur Shakespeare? The House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha?
@Amir Khalid: A principle electively sacred :)
@Ohio Mom: Fun information! I would have loved a vaccine passport. I was thinking of my 1960s/early 70s bank savings account book the other day. It showed how much money I had there in that building, don’t you know? Good times
ETA: Google tells me the term was “passbook”
@Amir Khalid: I will note that many Mexicans and Mexican-Americans pronounce it “Took-SOHN”. White people who live there pronounce it “TOO-sahn”.
The British are the people who pronounce Gloucester as “Gloster”, so it shouldn’t be a big surprise they butcher the pronunciation of place names in other countries, too.
@NotMax: All right, you goaded me into checking Wikipedia:
So it’s because a linguist couldn’t think of a good word.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
“Enforcing speed limits is communism.”
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
”Peking” being a prime example.
Just One More Canuck
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: an editorial writer for Moose Jaw Today (yes, that’s a real place) up here in Canada (Saskatchewan specifically) made a similar comparison – the editorial got yanked real quick From the CBC website, she was complaining that putting
limits on worship services show an anti-religious bias at all levels of government. She then compared the restrictions to the Holocaust. Sort of reminds oneself of what Hitler did to the Jews, and where worshippers are going from here, doesn’t it? Lockdowns in homes, then lockdowns in hotels, then lockdowns in facilities, then lockdowns in internment camps?’
@Bruce K in ATH-GR:
Mike Godwin has never been a big supporter of the alleged corollary to his law, that the first person to bring up Nazis automatically loses the argument. He has very publicly said it’s fine to compare people to Nazis if they’re acting like Nazis.
Adam L Silverman
The Florida legislature, the Florida governor, in fact the Florida government, can do almost nothing in regards to Walt Disney World Florida unless Disney wants them to do so. While a lot of ink has been shed explaining why Disney chose Florida over the St. Louis, MO area – specifically that I-4 and a bunch of US highways like 301 and 41 and Florida state highways/roads all converge adjacent to Kissimmee, FL, the real reasons are that land was dirt cheap and because of Florida law, Disney was able to basically run the table on the state. Walt Disney World Resort – all the theme parks, the “town” of Celebration, every bit of land Disney owns – is part of something known as the Lake Buena Vista Development Corporation. It is almost completely immune from Florida state laws, regulations, and municipal county ordinances, though, obviously, it complies with health codes for its restaurants and catering services. What it is is Florida’s equivalent to the Vatican. It is a quasi-sovereign political, economic, and legal entity smack dab within the center of Florida. While it does contract for law enforcement with the surrounding county, that is done for both PR and legal reasons as it is, under it’s incorporation agreement with the state, entitled to have its own police, fire, and EMS. It does have its own fire and EMS, but it also has a cooperation contract with the surrounding county. Its agreement also allows it to build it’s own international airport and run it directly under the FAA, not any Florida state laws or regulations. And its agreement allows it to build its own nuclear reactor if it wishes to do so.
Not that it would surprise me if he does so, but one of the dumbest thing that DeStupid could do is pick a fight with Disney that he cannot win because Florida’s governor and legislature back in the 1960s decided that Disney would get what ever he wanted in order to ensure it would build Walt Disney World in Florida.
Unless something newer has been published, this is pretty much the definitive account:
@Peale: “Ahistoric” does not mean “you got the historic facts wrong.” It means you are making an argument that does not consider the cultural realities of the world you are in.
Brand spanking new bank opened up outside of the nearest town when I resided in northeastern Pennsylvania. Opened up an account there soon after.
Easiest to remember account number ever: 80.
(Then, as now, there were six blocks to fill in on deposit or withdrawal slips, so in reality had to write out 000080.)
You might of course choose to violate those terms by exceeding the negotiated speed limit. The road-owner then has the option of using lethal force to enforce his property rights (the only legitimate use of lethal force), or of taking you to court, assuming that he can find a court that is acceptable to both of you.
This is not completely a snarky parody of LIbertarian beliefs.
I assume that, given the advances in technology, the “mark of the Beast” has been upgraded from a barcode to a QR code. Still forehead-situated of course.
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I shall stand firm on patently refusing to ask for Beijing duck, even if the 24 hours in advance request is waived.
I set up the Excelsior Pass too. Since I get PCR tested twice a week, Tuesdays are the only day I don’t have proof. (Assuming, of course, I test negative ?)
Do we really need a passport? Cant we just have our microchips scanned?
@Amir Khalid: Was that possibly related to the death of Malcolm Ten?
It’s amazing…this is just about the easiest fucking thing in the world for them (Qpublican officials) to take a pass on. Kids need vaccinations to come to school, people need passports for travel, you need a license to drive a car or be a hairdresser. It’s the perfect example of performative outrage in service of absolutely nothing other than ‘the opposite of what the libs are TELLING US TO DO! Waaaaahhh!!”
They could just say, “Yeah let’s all get vaccinated, whatever, next issue.” But they can’t let it go, because LIBS SAID TO DO IT AND YOU CAN’T MAKE ME!
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I’m reminded of that recent article reviewing a book on a Libertarian Free Town Project in New Hampshire somewhere around 2004. The neckbeards moved in and gutted most of the budget and regulations.
What they hadn’t counted on with regard to open dumping, cardboard shacks and the like was the rise of aggressive and resourceful black bears that stopped being cautious about humans and boundaries (like doors and walls).
Hilarity apparently ensued.
Adam L Silverman
It is important to remember that DeStupid intends to get himself reelected governor of Florida in NOV 2022 and then immediately begin his formal campaign for president. Everything he does or says regarding President Biden or the Biden administration now is all part of the informal campaign he’s already started running. He is positioning himself as the Republican governor that has fought Joe Biden’s tyranny and socialism since January 2021 and, therefore, is the best Republican for the nomination to formally run against Biden.
I don’t if anyone has pointed this out, but among the other problems with this offensive analogy, in Nazi Germany it was the people who were oppressed that had to be marked, not the good Germans. The unvaccinated would not have to carry anything.
I have a bar code tattoo.
I can’t recall. I hardly watch the Today I Found Out channel anymore; they don’t seem very careful about their factual content, either.
Also, it’s “anhistoric.”
Which bar? Probably not McSorley’s.
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
This gets to a central theme in bro culture: if I don’t understand the reason for something, it must be stupid and unnecessary.
This is one of the funnier posts I’ve read in a while…thanks TMYK! =)
@Ken: But remember! Even Libertopian Business Owners cannot require mask wearing, proof of vaccinations or a lack of significant firepower on their holy premises, because that would be unthinkable tyranny.
I just realized. Those new fangled bar codes are called QR codes, as in the Qanon Registry! OMG!
@Old School: microchips are so 2000… no the vaccine has nefarious nanobots that will make you gay or liberal or something
The rest of us realized that a long time ago. [We had the thought implanted in our heads via the nanochips in the Gates vaccine, of course.]
@SFAW: I haven’t been vaccinated yet. How long does it take before you can no longer differentiate between the chip voices and your own thoughts?
Not making this up.
Senile Strom Thrumond, reading at a hearing from notes, pronounced Kim Jong Il as Kim Jong Two.
His aides made sure to spell it out phonetically the next time it came up – as Kim Jong Ill. Sure enough, he pronounced that as Kim Jong the Third.
The chips tell me that considering that idea is not allow- …. bzzap! Thud.
@The Moar You Know: He is that stupid…Flip side is that there are fuckwits in our Legislature that make DeShithead look like a genius.
If it’s McSorley’s, two tattoos cost less than one.
Did he have a brother Storm?
Semi-related: some RWMF politico or pundit/blogger insisted on calling NK’s current leader “President Un.”
International travel through out modern history has required proof of vaccines for certain infectious diseases. Private business can also require proof of vaccination. There is the 30% of idiots in America that think the world is only for them to do as they please without thinking of others rights for good health and the common good.
I switched Kevin Drum’s new blog address in my bookmarks when he left Mother Jones and now have a separate one for MoJo. I go over to Kevin’s site probably once a day. True to form last week he had a post ranting about California High Speed rail. Fucking Orange County! Why they hate rail travel is beyond me. That is my one real problem with Kevin. He’s never lived outside Orange County and only values cars and planes.
@Baud: Roadie Brother the elder has a bar code tattoo too – and believes that if you scan it, it reveals his nickname, but to be on the safe side, he also has a tattoo of his nickname. Belt & suspenders dontcha know.
@prufrock: And non-US citizens won’t be able to return home from non-passport destinations without quarantining. An appreciable percentage of Florida visitors are from Canada and Northern Europe. Southern Europe and Caribbean countries that are passport-positive will be their new destinations.
Oh, those wacky closed captions. Just now:
Dialogue: The Anti-Comintern pact.
CC: The anti common terrorist pact.
@Roger Moore: Except for voting. Then it’s just common sense. What they are really saying is, “white people should never have to prove anything to anyone but everyone else has to demonstrate their bona fides to everyone at all times.” I hate these people. I mean, I hate hate hate all of them. When I start having visions of shattering people’s facial structure with baseball bats I have to take a break.
Does he have trouble remembering his nickname?
@laura: There are already a bunch of cool tee shirt designs online. I was looking at some yesterday given that we may end up visiting Texas in December.
@mali muso: I remember wanting to take a trip to Ghana back when I was in world-hopping mode and seeing the list of vaccinations I would have to take to go! Never did end up making the trip, but I would have got vaccinated and gladly in order to do so.
Trump had a brand. Sure it was the stuff of late night infomercials, but it had a four quadrant customer base.
Now you see the GOP fracture lines. DeSantis has the crooked SBOs, Kemp is the racist rednecks, Hawley has the Bible thumpers, and Ted Cruz has… well nobody like him.
The problem is, as 2024 candidates, they all come off as inauthentic to the other factions.
“It’s spelled Kip but it’s pronounced Throat Warbler Mangrove.”
Villago Delenda Est
Shoot the total morons of the Libertarian Party of Kentucky into the Sun.
Villago Delenda Est
@SFAW: (insert kitten pawpalm gif here)
DeSantis can’t do squat if the feds (or more specifically the FAA) begin requiring vaccination passports to fly.
@Villago Delenda Est
How much mass must we inject into Jupiter to ignite it into a second star?
Just thinkin’ out loud.
@kindness: I try hard to avoid getting up on my high horse on a soap box about high speed rail, but Kevin D forces my hand once again. Multi-modal transportation is the only way forward so many reasons and most of those reasons are for the social good. Not everyone can or should drive. Not everyone can or should fly. Kevin uses his own life as the measuring stick but somehow has never considered his health as a reason to see rail travel as a benefit. If Kevin was sight impaired, he’d likely find rail travel as the least restrictive form of travel. There’s so many economic reasons to support high speed rail – activity along the route and the ability to connect the interior of the state via branch lines. There’s so much to be said for commuting by rail – turn the soul crushing twice daily drive into a pleasant and reliable period of time to spend doing stuff or not. I commuted for a year between Sacramento and San Francisco for a fellowship position while working on my master of laws. It would have been very difficult, if not impossible, to do that commute on the daily- yet so many do because there’s no alternative. I’m sold on rail, Kevin can drive or fly, but he’s unhelpful when he continues to criticize HSR.
@L85NJGT: Apparently Kristi Noem is having to make nice with certain segments of the CPAC world because she tried to get college athletes exempt from the latest culture war hate fest, now aimed at transgender athletes. (I mean, come on people, can’t there be someone it’s okay to hate and shit on?) She was afraid South Dakota would get ostracized for NCAA sanctioned events if they didn’t exempt college level athletes. Arguably, this should make her even more acceptable because it shows that even her principled opposition is a money grab, not actual empathy with a marginalized group being singled out for hate. But otherwise, she seems to be the front runner in embodying the Konservative Kultural Krazy that Trump does.
J R in WV
You mean to say you didn’t get a CDC Vaccination card at your first vaccination?
We did, and they just added the second shot info to that card when we went for the second vaccination!
Very rural county Primary Care Clinic, running on generators because the whole county was without power for the first shot back in February. But evidently more professional than many sites in big cities, huh?
@Amir Khalid: No, and even if he tried to forget he couldn’t. He’s known in the profession by his nickname “___, the world’s angriest roadie.”
Upstater here — thanks for letting me know about the Excelsior Pass!
I now have that installed on my phone. The great thing is that the Bill Gates chip from my vaccine came with Bluetooth installed, so now my vaccine communicates directly with my Android. If you have an Apple phone, you’ll have to check for compatibility with your vaccine.
And at this point it’s proven, stable technology.
Recall when the LIRR made the ridiculous decision to order, all at once, about 50 previously untried combo engines that could run on diesel or electric and be switched on the fly from one to the other. In theory so passengers on non-electrified parts of lines could travel into or out of the city without having to change trains (diesel engines not permitted in the tunnels under the East River because of exhaust fumes). IIRC one third of them burst into flames at some point, another third of the fleet was in the shop for repair or shipped back to the factory for warranty service at any given time, and (icing on the cake) then the manufacturer went out of business.
@Adam L Silverman: Exactly. Florida gets some of the Danegeld, but can’t tell the Dane what to do ;)
The administration should focus on Amtrak’s traditional regional rail services, particularly interstate city pairs that have 403(b) funding problems because some states just don’t want to pay.
The window has closed on that supertrain stuff, and twelve years on, the very modest results are a pointless upgrade to a Chicago St Louis lane for the Union Pacific (thanks Obama!), two shuttered railcar manufacturers, and a California project that’s starting to smell real ripe.
And this is why there will have to be some government-verified vaccine verification: lots of rich people like traveling internationally, and when the absence of any solid proof of vaccination keeps them at home, they’ll insist on such a document being created. And they’ll get their way.
@NotMax: Well, wouldn’t Kim Jong Un’s successor be Kim Jong Deux?
@oldster: Thanks, downloading now. Tomorrow I have my 1st vaccine appt.
One of the last things the woebegone Tulsi Gabbard did while in Congress (this past December) was introduce an anti-trans athlete bill.
Related: A group of former interns for Hawaii Rep. Tulsi Gabbard is calling on the soon-to-be-former congresswoman to disavow her support for a bill she sponsored that would ban trans and intersex female athletes from competing on women’s teams..
Herd immunity comes about in one of two ways:
@laura: I would love to have HSR here in Florida. It was just crushing when our former Gov, now Senator Ambulatory Dildo canned it here and gave back all that filthy, free federal money. Those rail lines would have opened up more jobs, opportunities for business and job mobility. It would have opened access to the Orlando-Tampa-Miami triangle immensely, by cutting the travel time from Orlando to Miami or Tampa in more than half.
You have to wonder when the Libertarians will decide that toilet training is an intolerable restriction on their liberty.
I forgot about her. I doubt they pick a female for the top of ticket, but that might be their best bet.
“We must close the Nappy Gap!”
@The Moar You Know:
Glad to see another fan of the great Don Siegel film Charley Varrick in here. That John Vernon issues that implied threat to Woody Parfrey while sitting on a swing set makes it all the more chilling.
@Suzanne: I noticed that difference in the pronunciation of Tucson between Latino and Anglo locals as well when my oldest son went to school there (the SoCal kids called the school “UC Tucson”). It appears that the Spanish pronunciation is much closer to the original O’oodham.
@The Moar You Know: I have a friend who has booked a family trip to Disneyworld this fall. I believe they are already requiring proof of vaccinations before accepting those reservations. So yeah, good luck DeathSantis…
When prepping for work in South America I had to go to County Health and get several shots. I don’t believe there was an option to check a box saying no shots for me cause I am a nasty idiot who refuses to do so.
@laura: Amen on the advantages of high speed rail. In my long past youth, I too relied on that SF to Sacramento rail. Too close to fly, to traffic-choked to drive. I am afraid the media perception (largely accurate) that the LA-SF HSR project has been a bipartisan, private and public sector clusterfuck has set the cause back. But if this project can be salvaged, I would hope the prospects of an HSR expansion would be bright. Let’s start with LA to Las Vegas!
@prufrock: Hopefully cruise lines will tell people to suck an ass’s ass if they don’t have proof of vaccination. Oh, and your deposit is non-refundable. SAD!
@Bluegirlfromwyo: Also, wait until we get to August with DeSantis trying to tell Florida State they have to take their chances with unvaccinated people at football games. They already hate him in Tallahassee for saying he wants to move the capitol to Mar-A-Lago.
@Almost Retired: I am also a Wildcat, and yes, it is full of Californians. I miss the food and the sort of grittiness of the city a lot. I don’t miss the fucking BUGS or the heat or Raytheon.
James E Powell
Around the time the Malcolm X biopic came out, Rush Limbaugh was calling him Malcolm the Tenth. His audience thought it was the funniest thing ever.
Oh no. Is Jackass Junction already out of the running? They never should have agreed to change the name to Yeehaw.
@Doc Sardonic: in the very last work trip to Ft. Lauderdale last January, we took the Brightline to Miami – the terminus for the soon to launch Virgin Cruise Line (it did not launch in April 2020). It was beautiful, quiet, sleek and so very pleasant. Check it out if you get a chance. Naysayers can dunk on rail all they want. I’m looking foward to checking out the stunning renovations to Penn Station as soon as cross country travel is safe.
James E Powell
Kevin Drum is to high speed rail as Duncan Black is to driverless cars.
I don’t think Kevin hates rail travel. I think it’s that he thinks it’s a project that is doomed to failure because the USA just doesn’t do projects like this very well. I tend to agree with him.
No dumbasses. The anti-vaxxers are going to have to wear little COVID-19 Cartoons on there persons to indicate they are not vaccinated and have a high probability of carrying the virus and thus be shunned and laughed at. ///s
@Almost Retired: I got to experience real HSR for the first time in Spain in 2019. Holy crap it would be nice to have that. But I honestly don’t know if it’s politically/financially possible anywhere in the US.
I refuse to believe even Deathsantis sucked Dump’s ass that hard.
Woohoo! I’m excited for you, and wishing you zero discomfort.
What value will a COVID vax passport have 2 years from now? That was the first thing I thought of when the VIP (thanks, @NotMax) was first proposed. Presuming that a) everyone who wants the COVID vaccine gets it, b) that the annual flu shot now includes an annual COIVD shot (adjusted for variants, ease of use) and c) schools continue to require proof of vaccinations for students to enroll, it’s not clear what having a COVID VIP would do, other than to single out anti-vaxxer idiots that are a small if vocal minority.
Tomorrow it has value, sure, next week, of course, even next month, next six months, I can see where it might be useful for specific contexts (travel, mainly). Beyond that, is the administrative juice really worth the squeeze? We can’t even get our states drivers’ licenses all on the same page, seems like a lot of lifting for diminishing value over the long run. The concept of “passport” has value when the issuing agency is recognized and accepted as genuine, i.e. the US Department of State. Lacking that, any VIP is going to be questionable at best.
If non-US states (Japan, EU, etc) want to enforce a vaccination requirement, certification of the vaccinated citizen could be included as part of the US passport program, and that’s going to take some time to set up. Lacking any widely accepted and agreed-upon standards, it feels like a ‘wild wild west’ of roll-your-own VIP, and hope that it is accepted by whomever is requiring it.
@NotMax: Asshat Archipelago?
@Amir Khalid: I’m thinking the vaccine certificate will kind of look like a modern version of the polio vaccine credential i had to show to go to the municipal pool 60 years ago.
Just One More Canuck
@NotMax: Jesus, Florida – never change. Reading the wiki article, the most noteworthy part of it’s history was that the “name was given to the four-corner site back in the early 1930s, when local ranchers rode on burros to visit the Desert Inn (then the local brothel)
Well that and the biological warfare experiment, which could explain a lot
@NotMax: Everything about that Wikipedia article is amazing, including the fact that there is no 2000 census data for the place because it somehow got confused with another town.
So, in this case, the people with vaccinations are the ones wearing yellow stars? Is the Libertarian Party of Kentucky confused about who played the role of oppressor in WW2?
The person who has some app, will opt in and allow information requests to their state health department on this topic. WHEN said persongives their personal database passcode to an asking org.I would imagine the app has a QR code that encodes name, pin, and records organization. The reader system reads the QR, and asks the records organization for status. the records org says back:”yep, vaccinated”
I have not thought about how to keep others from using your name and pin – unless you keep the pin private – but you just handed to the organization that asked for it. I guess there will be a public key and a private key.
So if you made the “i’m not vaccinated” indicator the traitor’s flag, that would motivate them even more to stay unvaccinated.
Well, if start we taxing fuel at higher rates and put tolls on the motorways…
I’m told that flying is cheaper than high speed rail in Japan unless you’re a foreign tourist using a discount rail card.
@Adam L Silverman:
That sounds like a bit like Nike World Campus in beaverton. They have their own zip code. One time Beaverton the city tried to annex them.. they lost big time. That won’t be happening again any time soon.
@Peale: I think the word people are looking for is “anachronistic”.
(Being in the SCA, I come across that word plenty)
Make it the traitors (confederate) flag and they will sign up for it.
@Amir Khalid: This is why I do not understand why managers of stores that have “wear a mask in the store” signs posted at all entrances shrug when it’s pointed out to them that there are shoppers in there with no mask. “Nothing we can do,” they say.
If I went in with no shirt, you’d be damned sure they’d have me out of there fast.
I’m reminded of the story a few years back where they tried that in Omaha. A developer convinced the city to leave the streets in their new development private so as to save some money up front, and then years later, when the streets were almost useless due to lack of upkeep, the homeowners didn’t want to pay the costs of repaving the streets. I think they ultimately got the city to take over maintenance of the streets, but the other option they were looking at was tearing up the paved streets, which…wouldn’t have been a great option either.
Majority of streets being unpaved is the more likely scenario in Libertopia, except for those that can turn a profit.
Don’t get me wrong. I like Kevin Drum. He’s a little dry reading sometimes but he’s usually on good ground. Especially his Friday cat pics. I grew up in the NY suburbs and took trains into the city and up to Boston all the time when I lived there. I’ve been out here in California since the late 70’s and haven’t ridden them much other than BART & light rail but I think trains are an important transportation medium. High Speed Rail requires it’s own tracks. It can’t run on coventional tracks, so any high speed rail project is going to be expensive. I support spending that money as I see the future value in it. Kevin doesn’t. He thinks it’s a waste of money and that money should instead be spent on freeways and airports. I disagree with Kevin on this, that’s all.
I strongly disagree. (I similarly disagree with Drum about this stuff.)
We’re not going to be driving 10 MPG pickups and 18 MPG cars around in 2221. Upgraded transport isn’t going to get cheaper. We need to get on the move on in building modern railways, transit, etc.
Every state can and should do similar things. HSR requires more, but it’s the same idea. These are decades-long investments and California surely can afford it. It really cannot afford not to…
@WhatsMyNym: I wonder if that’s true considering how much more convenient the trains are. You can get on a train to wherever you want to go in the city center (for whatever city) and get off in the city center for whatever city, or get easy transfers to other lines. The extra cost and hassle of going to airports may not be in the ticket price, but it’s still a cost.
But regardless, as Atrios often points out, even the non “HSR” options in other countries are nicer and faster than what we have. And those are still quite inexpensive.
J R in WV
We took a train from Toulouse France to Paris back in the long ago, and it was smooth, comfortable, great scenery, great lunch with glass bottles of real red French wine.
When we complimented the train to the conductor, he rolled his eyes and said “This?!” because it wasn’t a bullet train. But it was an improvement over the Amtrak trains, newer, better service, better lunch counter, etc, etc.
And there were trains in the tiny village we stayed in, and the crossing bell rang every couple of hours when the tiny train came through.
But we still got to Paris quicker than a flight would have done it, given the attendant security theater. From tiny locals to speeding Bullet trains, France has the train travel down well~!~
@Matt McIrvin: They should have included a photo of the 18-wheeler that crushed the Desert Inn at “highway speed.”
My recollection from when Obama tried to push HSR as part of his stimulus plan, is that the HSR systems they have in Europe and Japan aren’t compatible with U.S. rail regulations.
(I also dimly recall that this might be one of the problems in California. That if they could just bring in one of the companies that builds HSR lines in other parts of the world and let them do the same thing here, it would be done by now.)
IF that’s the case, then they ought to just change the damn regs. If the European and Japanese rail systems have major safety issues, I sure haven’t heard of them.
Anyway, I’m so fucking jealous of other parts of the world having HSR when we don’t.
@lowtechcyclist: I believe that US rail widths are different from Europe and Japan, which is also another challenge.
Commercial air travel is a damnable problem from a CO2 perspective: there’s really no way to do it without petroleum-based jet fuel. So the best way to reduce the CO2 footprint of air travel is to have fast trains that make airplanes superfluous for medium-distance travel, so that airplanes only make sense on longer routes.
Freeways? Electric cars can solve a lot of our CO2 problems if we can generate the needed electricity without fossil fuels. But reducing the energy involved in moving people around makes that more doable, and trains do that, if getting from Point A to Point B is less of a hassle by rail than by car.
I can understand why Kevin’s outlook on HSR has been influenced by the disaster that the California experiment has been, but fuck it, if the Europeans and Japanese have been able to make it work, we should be able to as well.
@laura: The problem with *California* high speed rail is that the tremendous inefficiency of American infrastructure construction interacts nastily with one of the most difficult HSR routes ever built – crossing the nearly 5000 mountains separating the Central Valley from Socal. Price tags are now upwards of 100 billion dollars. Although I’m a big supporter of rail I’d rather we wait until we fix the ridiculous construction costs here (typically around 3x those of Europe) before building it.
Given that (as kindness pointed out) HSR requires its own tracks anyway, there doesn’t seem to be a reason not to use their rail widths. It would be different if we were planning to run HSR on existing tracks.
@cmorenc: I heard an expert (Brilliant, maybe) say that humans have never achieved herd immunity in any disease except via vaccination. Makes sense to me.
@sdhays: Well, that’s mostly not true. Standard gauge (4′ 8.5″/1435mm) is used throughout Europe and North America – exceptions are Russia (5’3″), Ireland (5’3″) and Iberia (5’6″). Plus BART on 5’0″, presumably to prevent interoperability with CalTrain. Japan is mostly 3’6″, except for the Shinkasen, which are standard gauge.
So most-if-not -all HSR is 1435mm, even (I believe) in Spain.
And then there’s Australia…
@lowtechcyclist: Picking the same gauge means HSR stock can be moved on regular lines if necessary (or for delivery).
The lowest discount airfares up and down the Bos-Wash corridor are competitive with Acela, and the Acela isn’t great (I don’t think the value proposition really justifies paying for it over the Northeast Corridor slow trains–these days, I find that the easiest way to get to NYC from where I live is a bus).
@kindness: It always feels like people talk past each other on this subject–the argument against HSR is “it can’t support itself on competitive fares without government subsidies” and the argument for is “the things it’s competing with are destroying the biosphere, it’s worth paying those subsidies” and the response is “BUT SUBSIDIES” and never the twain shall meet.
The biggest problem with HSR here in California has been that those who are against it have thrown sand in the gears at every step in the process. The folks who are against it have purposefully been jacking up the cost because of this and we have a death of 1000 cuts scenerio going on. Negotiating right of ways costs time and money. Laying new tracks along side existing tracks requires consent agreements with the owners of said tracks which takes time and money. Getting over the Grapevine and the passes leading into the Bay Area takes time and money. We’ve had time but in all the years they’ve been working on it there has never been the money. We’ve gone from governments strapped for cash due to the 2008/9 melt down to Trump strangling every blue state out there.
Building out HSR isn’t something that can be done in a 5 year window. It has to be done on a 20 year window. Americans have too short of attention spans to be able to stay with a program for that long. But it is doable and we will all be better off if I can take a HSR train to LA instead of having to drive or fly there. I’m in N. Cal if you couldn’t tell.
@J R in WV: When I was traveling around Europe on a Eurailpass in 1991, at one point I wanted to treat myself and take the TGV from Geneva to Paris (which wasn’t covered by the Eurailpass), but there was some kind of computer network failure that kept me from booking the ticket, so I had to take the regular SNCF train. I remember thinking at the time that the “slow” train was itself a faster bullet train than I’d be able to take anywhere in the US.
@Fair Economist: The Swiss have been putting railroads through mountains for 170 years or so. Yes, there are differences. But it’s not nuclear fusion or something.
And Drum was a nay-sayer on California HSR from the beginning for these reasons.
That’s still no good reason not to do it.
Big construction program (almost) always cost more and take longer than expected. Look at the Big Dig in Boston. But it’s still worth it. And it’s always more expensive to put it off.
I’ve been fortunate enough to ride the Shinkhansen in Japan and some fast trains in Europe. They’re good and important to have – one never knows when weather will shut down airports or some disaster will take out part (or all) of the other traffic routes. We need resiliency, and short of wind-powered barges, few things are more efficient than rail transportation.
If libertarians say that vaccine passport infringes on their freedom, then I’m going to say, “Fine. Then I’ll sue you. Because you’re infringing on MY right to free assembly–and I base it on who I know is vaccinated.”
@Another Scott: Not to mention that Japanese HSR is through mountains in an active earthquake zone, just like California.
I’ve seen mentioned the huge difference in US vs EU construction costs before, but I don’t remember the reasons. Do you recall what the primary reasons are?
@sdhays: Most rail lines in the US are not government owned. When the US gave the railroads the right to take land to build a railroad over those companies took that offer seriously. So it’s private property negotiations all the way and the owners of that property don’t want to see their property values decrease because there is a competing better neighbor right next to their tracks. That isn’t really true here in CA. Most rail traffic out here is shipping, not consumer travel. Still, those companies will do everything they can to shit on HSR and we have lots of folk trying to help them. That and Amtrack has been purposefully underfunded for decades so it isn’t as if they can spend lots of money trying to whip up public sentiment on this. Californians are not used to taking trains for the most part so the citizenry here mostly either doesn’t care or they are like Kevin Drum. They want the money spent on the roads which they use every day.
@Timill: I think this is correct. Spanish trains use the wider Iberian gauge except for the high-speed lines, which are standard gauge because they need to interoperate with foreign HSR lines but not with the local Spanish train lines.
I’ll ask the question, who’s paying for the vaccines? The government. So I wonder why the government can’t issue some sort of an ID that a person has been vaccinated. The national government issues passports, which one needs to travel outside the country, why can’t they issue a vaccine passport?
The population also realizes the value of HSR for transportation, whereas here in the US we can’t seem to be able to sit in an airplane for longer than a couple of hours without at least someone on the plane working on their impression of an asshole.
@Ruckus: One of the Biden covid-19 coordinators said at a recent briefing that there wasn’t going to be any government covid passport, but they were encouraging open-source non-profits to come up with something, publish the standards, etc. That’s probably the best we can hope for to get something out quickly.
@Ruckus: Partly that is because airline seating is so monstrously uncomfortable, whereas one of the great advantages of trains is that the seating is really much nicer. You can bear being in there for a bit longer (unless it’s SRO, but high-speed lines typically have all reserved seating).
And, of course, for trips of a few hundred miles between city centers, the train trip can often take less time despite the plane’s speed advantage, given the relative inaccessibility of airports and security and baggage folderol.
Q is madlibs training a broken AI.
@Adam L Silverman: Here’s the thing, though: I wonder if Disney is interested in any such thing. As far as I can tell, Disney has basically decided that they’ve got this and can run their theme parks in COVID world even without vaccination. They’re only closed in California because the state government made them close. In Florida, they’re already running, albeit at reduced capacity with a lot of social-distancing stuff in place, some of it kind of theatrical.
So would they even care about mandating vaccination? Might just try to ride it out until case rates go down enough that they can lift their restrictions.
J R in WV
Somehow we were able to build railroads clear across the continent in the 1800s, across the multiple mountain ranges between St Louis and the west coast. IIRC they actually used sledge hammers to drive the spikes, and dynamite and hand shovels to cut the right-of-way and tunnels.
But now we must build RRs by burning money to cut those paths across the mountains!! Same as building new Aircraft Carriers, burning $100 bills to curve the steel plates, am I right? Isn’t that what fuels the space shots now? Chopped $100 bills??
@J R in WV: I’d say we’re less keen on working a bunch of immigrants to death to do it, but I’m not exactly sure about that.
I’ve traveled a lot by plane and a fair bit by train. Even slow trains are far more comfortable, as you say.
I was told at one time, by a Hertz person, that I was in the top 5% of all their renters for number of rentals/time of rental. That’s how often I used to fly. I also got on a plane once, sat down and fell asleep. Woke up, looked out the window and there was a red brick wall about 20 feet off the end of the wing on my side. I turned to the guy sitting next to me and asked if we were there. He was not amused. “They closed the door, backed up about 30 feet and we’ve been sitting here for 45 minutes and you are the only person on the whole plane not pissed off, asshole.” I almost hurt myself laughing.
@Ruckus: The worst airline seating I’ve ever experienced was actually on the last trip I took–it was Virgin Atlantic’s transatlantic economy. It was the only time I’ve ever seen the seats jammed so close together that it was starting to give me claustrophobic anxiety to sit in them, sort of like being wedged in a mail slot, and I had to ride across an ocean that way.
Fortunately the rest of the trip was Singapore Airlines’ long-haul A380 service (probably killed off by the pandemic now, though its long-term viability was questionable in any event), and that was very nice.
European airports are constrained by higher density and NIMBYism, so the bottom end of the air market is shifted off to HSR. That’s why so many posts are of the “ I rode the train in Europe” variety. There aren’t the gate constraints in the LA to SF market, and it is over the optimal haul for full HSR load factors. The LCCs in the market lane will clobber them.
That project is fucked. Because a lack of demand is behind the lack of political will. If supporters had been upfront about the cost to punch into the LA Basin that vote is dead on arrival. The green washing is the cherry on top of bullshit mountain.
A death a mile is what the NYC subway cost.
Lovely Bride and I are sporting our Excelsior Passes. We are some BAMF! ;)
@Matt McIrvin: +1
A neighbor’s kids are going to visit a bunch of theme parks in FL soon (like this weekend soon). I’d be flabbergasted if they’re vaccinated.
I gather DW has been open for a while with mandatory masking. I assume it’s similar at the other parks.
I’ll be very, very surprised if they require proof of vaccination anytime soon.