Ron Desantis banning vaccine passports because it was an idea from a Democrat is getting some attention (I wrote about his previous dumb statements, before the ban, here). The more I think about it, and the more I look at research that shows that the mRNA vaccines are probably 100% effective at preventing death and hospitalization, maybe even from variants, the less I think passport opposition matters.
In addition to the high probability that corporations will bow to public pressure and use some kind of passport at mass events and for travel, by late Summer everyone who wants to be vaccinated will be. Then, as long as variants don’t cause problems, the only people engaging in risky public behavior will be the unvaccinated. At that point, who cares? These dead-enders can fuck around and find out if being a dead-ender will ultimately leave them dead.
I had to run to the store this morning to get a couple of items and saw an unusual sight for these parts: someone shopping without a mask. It was remarkable because it was extremely rare. This person looked distinctly uncomfortable as they strolled around in their camo coveralls, because everyone else at the store was shooting them dirty looks. The treatment this person was receiving will be what dead-enders can expect in their interactions with the healthcare system, at a concert or at an airport. Nobody will give a a mouse fart worth of attention to their precious freedoms. The only sympathy offered will be in Q enclaves or on Fox. The rest of us will simply accept (at best) their self-imposed isolation or (at worst) their illness and death, as the price they pay for not getting a goddam shot. And isn’t it about time that the people who don’t want to pay taxes, who want to walk around without a mask and infect us, and who want to suck up valuable hospital resources for avoidable illness, pay some price for their behavior?
Edited to add: Sorry, wrote the post and got called away before I noticed that Betty had posted something below. Also, two things in response to comments: 1) I am taking an optimistic view that these new vaccines are remarkably effective even against variants (“effective” = no hospitalization or deaths), so dead-enders circulating variants isn’t a big concern to the vaccinated (and, yes, I get it that there might be some super-variant created, but that’s gonna happen with or without dead-enders because huge swaths of the rest of the world aren’t getting vaccinated anytime soon). 2) By “everyone” getting vaccinated, I mean everyone, kids included. To date, the only contra-indication to the vaccine is previous allergic reaction to COVID vaccine and they’re already starting trials for 12 year-olds, and I’m assuming they’ll do it for younger kids soon.
Roger Moore
I’m a little less optimistic and much less forgiving than you. The vaccines seem to be highly effective at preventing death and hospitalization in the people tested, but it’s not clear how well they protect people with weak immune systems. We also have to worry about people who are unable to be vaccinated for some reason. We really need to vaccinate everyone who can be safely vaccinated so the people who can’t be or whose vaccinations are ineffective for some reason are protected by herd immunity.
PsiFighter37
While I am similarly blasé about the unvaccinated’s fate, I hope that public health authorities do not end up being overly restrictive because a small, loud minority refuses to do the right thing. I am more concerned, though, that by the time we reach herd immunity levels for vaccination, there will be a more potent mutation that nullifies the impact of current vaccines. We shall see. My first shot (Pfizer) is in 10 days; my wife had her first one (Moderna) a few days ago. Looking forward to being fully protected by late May.
Old School
And my high-risk child. But I suppose we can keep quarantining for another couple of years.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I’m concerned over the number of assholes that refuse to mask up or vaccinate as a statement. While there’s decent vaccine use in the cities, the stupidest rural and exurban Jesus humpers in America are keeping this thing alive, hence the current opening of vaccines to every man, woman and teen in outlying areas.
Suzanne
I love shaming. LOVE IT. Hope we can do it more.
Here in Allegheny County, everyone I see is still doing a very good job masking in stores. However, we stopped on Friday night to pick up some takeout, and the restaurant was packed, and most everyone had their masks off. No way was there six feet between tables. And it’s still too cold to dine outdoors. So our case counts have gone back up by a lot. Deaths appear to be staying low.
The Moar You Know
Not how it works, Mr. Mix. The unvaccinated rarely kill themselves. They kill the old, the young, those who have compromised immune systems, and those who work with the public. You know better. At least I thought you did.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@PsiFighter37:
It is a larger, louder minority than you think, and can keep international borders slammed shut to American travelers for a very long time to come, not that the assholes care (they rarely leave their shitty communities).
Eolirin
@The Moar You Know: And, even beyond this, leaving opening pockets of space for the virus to continue to propagate in will eventually lead to vaccine resistent variants and then we’ll have another pandemic on our hands as we try to desperately revaccinate the entire population.
NotMax
Everyone ought, as they are ambulatory incubators for new variants.
Sloegin
FL is a Right to Work state. Unless the legislature changes that, a lot of these freedom-humpers will discover that their freedoms don’t include a right to keep their job and remain unvaccinated.
If your boss can sack you because he doesn’t like the color of your shirt, he’ll find a reason to get rid of you.
Baud
Premature to worry about the dead enders when we’re still working on getting good people vaccinated.
WaterGirl
@Roger Moore: Glad you posted that!
I wonder whether we can hit herd immunity levels just with the people who want to be vaccinated.
I think that if we don’t, businesses are going to start requiring covid vaccinations, because nobody and surely no business owner wants this to go on forever. It may be that HR policies will have to save us on this one.
Roger Moore
@Sloegin:
What you’re talking about is being an at will employment state (employers can fire employees for any reason) not a right to work state (employees can’t be forced to join a union). That said, employers probably won’t be able to fire workers for refusing vaccination. The vaccines are still technically considered experimental, and AFAIK it’s not legal to force people to take experimental medicines.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I’ll be interested to see how many people still refuse to get the shot once it’s easy to do and most other people have had it. 302 people live in my very R condo building. Management arranged a clinic for us and bussed people there. Of those 302 people. ONE refused the shot.
Of course two others are under doctor’s advice not to get it. These are old people and I assume these may be people in chemo or something.
Anyway, I think ease of getting it and the clear social expectation that you would encouraged people to do it.
Nicole
@Suzanne:
I, too, get much pleasure, from anti-maskers getting humiliated (Fifty Shades of Whey’s Twitter feed brings me particular grim joy). Unfortunately, it’s not all that effective for the outcome we want, which is people masking up and getting their Fauci ouchies. People get defensive more than they do contemplative about their behavior.
That said, I saw a post by an infection expert who said one of the best tools may be social media posts by people bragging about getting their vaccines. Though they may inspire envy in those still waiting for their turn, the posts also go a way toward dispelling fears in the vaccine hesitant- how can something that brings so much joy be that scary? Plus, when a person keeps seeing everyone else doing it…
Shame may not be the most useful tool for changing behavior, but FOMO, apparently, is. Heh.
And yeah, everyone here is right; no matter how effective the vaccines are at preventing Covid-19, they’re not 100% and there are also people who can’t get vaccinated for legit medical reasons. Leaving the vaccine hesitant to fend for themselves doesn’t project those vulnerable groups, and their lives and health are valuable, too. Vaccination is never just about you; it’s about everyone you interact with.
smith
@Roger Moore: EEOC says employers can require vaccinations now.
Greg Ferguson
Yup. Harder and harder, one hopes, to be a closet shithead. Truth will out. ?
MattF
But… but… socialism. Hmm. You think??
KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))
I’m finally in the post-vax, immunity max zone, so I went to the grocery store the other day. I had to go down an isle where there was a well-dressed woman with her mask covering just her mouth. I rushed past her, saying, “Excuse me for rushing past you since you’re not wearing your mask.” I almost bumped into a woman down the isle (not really, but I got closer than I should have). I apologized, saying I was sorry but I wanted to get past the woman not wearing her mask as fast as I could. She gave the non-mask-wearing woman a nasty glance & said, “Yes, I noticed that!”
A little later I noticed Ms No-mask in another isle, with her mask covering her mouth and her nose. Community pressure works.
Roger Moore
@WaterGirl:
We can’t reach herd immunity without the current number of hold-outs. They either need to be convinced or coerced into getting vaccinated. I’d prefer convincing, but I’m quite willing to coerce if necessary.
Suzanne
@Nicole:
I’m not sure it’s about getting that obstinate individual to change their behavior. I think it’s more about strictly defining the boundaries of acceptable social behavior for those bystanders who are wobbly. Most people are followers and will do whatever they feel influenced to do.
smith
I think the rapid uptake of vaccine among the people aged 65+ is a good sign. They tend to skew somewhat R-asshole, but so far appear to understand that it’s their own lives at stake. Of course, we haven’t yet hit the marginal cases, so it will be a little while before we know if those old Goobers are sneaking off to get vaccinated.
Suzanne
@KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager)):
Exactly. She isn’t so deeply invested in anti-masking as to be willing to endure social discomfort. She’d prefer not to, but she isn’t going to put up a fight. Most people are like this, use it to our advantage.
WaterGirl
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I always wonder… don’t they make D condo buildings for people of retirement age?
Brachiator
As others have noted, the burden still falls on the community and possibly also on other people.
sab
I posted similar upthread. Working remote this year. (Quit abrubtly in mid tax year last year when they would not mask.) Surprisingly, they wanted me back. I am good at what I do, but so are lots of people, and they are wonderful employers.
Boss’s brother. High Covid risk. Very overweight. Diabetic. Heart issues. Kidney issues.
Asked him how he was doing on getting vaccine. He said he didn’t want to be injected with other peoples DNA.
Can’t protect idiots from being idiotic.
WaterGirl
@Roger Moore: I have no problem with requiring the covid vaccine. So many idiots, no time to waste in terms of smashing covid.
Nicole
@Suzanne:
But shame itself as a tactic is generally not useful:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/pandemic-shaming-wellness-trnd/index.html
I agree with you that people will generally be influenced to do what everyone around them is doing (we are tribe animals, after all). It’s just that shame is a particular tactic that, in the end, is not all that effective. Does it ever work? Of course it does, sometimes. But more often people get resentful and defensive.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@WaterGirl: Apparently not. However, with friends, we have formed a secret D cabal. Our primary tactic so far is changing the TV in the cafe from Fox to CNN whenever we’re in the vicinity
ETA: Actually, there are probably more D retirement buildings downtown. We wound up in a suburb because we wanted to be within half an hour of our son and DIL.
Pennsylvanian
Yes, as much as I want to say, “go ahead you maskless MAGAt, take the COVID Challenge!” I don’t want them next to me in a medical setting, at work, or near kids. Selfish assholes with no moral core.
Mousebumples
Hypothetically, I agree with the theory that if it’s only you at risk, that’s your call. But, as others have said, there are more people at risk that either can’t get the shot (under 16) or may not have a good response (immunosuppressed individuals).
Wisconsin will allow all adults 16+ to get vaccinated starting tomorrow. I usually host an outdoor 4th of July gathering, and I’m hoping to host again this year. And I’m going to require vaccines for adults to protect my they almost 2 y/o daughter.
KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))
Yes! If she hadn’t been wearing a mask at all, I probably wouldn’t have said anything, just would have gone to a different isle to avoid her altogether. But it was obvious she cared about signaling the social form of mask-wearing, she just didn’t want to bother with the unpleasantness of it. That annoyed me. OK, alright, sometimes I can be a bitch. I admit it. I did what I did. Wasn’t nice. But I figured she needed to know her behavior was socially unacceptable.
I admit I didn’t expect that it would result in corrective action on that very visit. That was gratifying. ;-)
Snarki, child of Loki
“The only sympathy offered will be in Q enclaves”
Put a fence around ’em and call them FEMA camps. Shots for those who want to try to leave (vaccine for those who politely request leaving, bullets for the others).
Don’t forget the black helicopters. They were promised black helicopters, after all.
KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))
@sab:
Tell him to get the Johnson & Johnson, which is pretty much a flu-style vaccine, not an mRNA vaccine. He gets flu shots, right?
Why do people have to be so dumb?
Mike in NC
Amazon Prime offers several documentaries about the Fat Orange Clown, including a couple that are actually pro-Trump. Last night I watched “#Unfit: The Psychology of Donald Trump” which featured a number of interviews with psychiatrists and psychologists who weighed in on what a sick, unstable fucking degenerate asshole he is. Yet Republicans remain determined to cram this shit-eating moron down our throats as dictator for life. Very disturbing stuff.
Cheryl Rofer
I haven’t seen a video of an anti-masker making a scene in a store since, oh about January 20. Y’think the guy in charge makes a difference?
Another Scott
STATnews:
FWIW.
I expect that I’ll be carefully watching the community spread numbers for a long time. And expect to have issues traveling, especially internationally, until the US really has case numbers under control (and effective tracing and isolating policies).
We know, and have known, how to get the virus under control. The question has always been, will we (as a country and down to the vast majority of localities) do it.
Cheers,
Scott.
Roger Moore
@KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager)):
Except it isn’t. The J&J vaccine is an adenovirus vaccine, not a classic killed or attenuated virus vaccine. It’s noteworthy that none of the vaccines in circulation in the US are traditional; they’re all using novel technology that hasn’t been used on this scale before.
artem1s
Hard NO. It does matter. The Know Nothings aren’t paying the price for the shitshow they have inflicted the country with for the last year. How is it you believe they will pay now or in the future?
College campuses aren’t safe from Rick DeSantis’ idiocy. Every state east of the Mississippi is going to be experiencing a surge in deaths and cases because of what has been going on in FL for the last month. If Disney doesn’t come out hard against legislation that endangers their workers and their customers, we should be calling for a boycott of Disney products. OH’s WRNJs just decided they could take away decision making from the head of HHS on all COVID related matters. We are probably facing an all out ban on mask and vaccine requirements just in time for high school and state university sports practice seasons. Do you think the teachers are safe from the footballers that will be flaunting their idiot anti-vaxer (and gun humping) parents’ beliefs? How about the 17 year old kid who would love to have an excuse to get a vaccine despite his parents’ willingness to let him die for Jeebus Trump?
The real world consequences of DeSantis declaration is this – FL (and OH) won’t pay unemployment or workers comp for employees who need to refuse work because of COVID or who get sick on the job. Forget FL undocumented workers getting vaccinated now. Those most at risk will pay the price for Red state governors who are willing to risk the lives of ‘those’ people. Amazon would be the first in line to get vaccinations for their workers if they thought they will have to pay unemployment and/or sick leave. Disney should have been enlisted to incentivize vaccinating FL residents. Instead we will have to trust their decision on vaccination mandates for people who will be traveling from all over the country and going back again just so they can visit Epcot. Airlines are federally controlled and they have decent unions. You can’t assume the rest of the industry will follow suit on restrictions they institute. That Disney (and the rest of the travel/entertainment/sports industries) are sitting on the sidelines waiting to see what their state governors will let them get away with speaks volumes. And the message isn’t a good one for labor rights or the rest of the country’s health.
Good on MLB and the NBA for taking a stand on the right side this time – but those decisions are being driven by players unions, not the CEOs. I hope other companies follow suit. But their record on doing the right thing – without threat of legislation – isn’t the best over the last 150 years.
frosty
@WaterGirl: My parents were in a continuing care facility that seemed like it was D to me. In the People’s Republic of Chapel Hill. Choose your location wisely!
frosty
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Changing the TV from Fox is our standard move in any waiting area!
jonas
Me: https://tenor.com/view/umm-wait-nathan-fillion-gif-4809231
Wag
@Roger Moore:
Here’s a good summation of who cannot get vaccinated. TL/DR? At this time the only people who aren’t approved to be vaccinated are children under age 16 and pregnant women. And both groups are being studied for inclusion. People who are allergic to components of the vaccine shouldn’t be vaccinated, but out of 100,000,000+ doses given, there have only been a handful of documented allergic reactions. Here’s a paper from JAMA estimating a risk of 2.5-11 allergic reactions per million doses.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777417
sab
@KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager)): At this point, if his family (vaccinated) hasn’t told him then let him die.
Baud
Maybe vaccine hesitancy will be the impetus for the rapture.
sab
@sab: Also too, he calls people of color “colored”. Who does that in 2021?
KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))
@Old School: I don’t know how old your child is, but Pfizer announced last week that their trials with 12-16 year olds showed their vaccine to be 100% effective (as my husband said, nothing is 100% effective, but apparently that was the case within the trial population). Side effects were about the same as for adults. They will begin testing 6-12 year olds.
Johnson & Johnson is also testing on infants, and has expanded their 2a trials to children aged 12-18.
J R in WV
@sab:
You can fix ignorance, but not stupidity. Nor wilful ignorance, actually. That’s so stupid, probably terminally stupid.
The Pale Scot
Have a website where people can post pics of maskless people, allow insurance companies to refuse to cover the bills of those hospitalized and proved to not have been wearing masks.
Use big data to ID those who have not gotten vaccinated. Same consequence. If they want to be nut job, My insurance premiums shouldn’t be helping them out.
They can get treated, and they can get the full non-insured rate bill afterward.
germy
I had an opposite experience. I got a dirty look and a comment because I was wearing a mask.
I’d left the bank and was walking through some side streets to a store. I didn’t want to touch my mask because I’d handled stuff in the bank, and hadn’t used their sanitizer. So I left it on, and some guy passed me and said something. I muttered “fuck you” under my mask and kept walking.
I have a friend in Florida who experienced something similar. He was criticized for wearing a mask.
KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))
@Roger Moore: I didn’t realize that. I mean, I knew it used an attenuated adenovirus (don’t I sound like I know what that is? I do, sort of, it’s an enfeebled cold virus, but beyond that…), but I have no idea how flu shots are made, other than that they don’t use shiny new mRNA technology. Thanks for explaining.
WaterGirl
@Dorothy A. Winsor: You could ask the main office to change the default channel to CNN!
Lacuna Synecdoche
mistermix @ Top:
The problem, of course, is if new variants do cause problems. Specifically, the larger the pool of unvaccinated people, the more chance there is for a vaccine resistant variant to evolve.
If that pool is 5% of the population, then yeah, we’re in herd immunity territory, and like you, I won’t care about the dead-enders. But if it’s 20%-30% of the population, which looks likely, then that could become a problem.
germy
Does he spend a lot of time eating in diners? If so, he’s consumed lots of other peoples DNA. Everyone who handled or breathed or sneezed and coughed over his food.
StringOnAStick
I grew up loving science and all the gee whiz, look at how the the space age and modern science had made life better! Faster! Healthier! The human and especially R response to this huge global challenge has depressed the hell out of me.
My husband and I get our second doses on the 14th, and I’m grateful. What I’d like to feel is some joy at our progress instead of the realization that the troglodytes who are being manipulated strictly for political power (looking at you, R leaders and Putin) are going to keep the world in a permanent sense of chaos, out of which will not come enough action fast enough to mitigate global climate change. Humans are stupid and the planet doesn’t deserve our endless, thoughtless abuse.
I need to go outside and enjoy some sun and nature, hopefully that will help my mood.
CaseyL
@Cheryl Rofer: I think it makes a surprising amount of difference.
GOPsters are Orwellian authoritarians, capable of doing a 180 on “deeply held beliefs” if their Leader says to. Now the Leader is someone who says they should get vaccinated.
Even if they don’t acknowledge Biden as President, or Leader, something in their tiny lizard brains responded to an authority figure saying “Get vaccinated.”
I’m sure it’s not even conscious on their part – but then, I’m not sure they do anything consciously. They basically respond to external stimuli like a plant responding to sunlight.
J R in WV
@Another Scott:
I found (Thanks, Google) this group’s contact us site, and wrote them to tell them that my wife and I have no intention to EVER attend a live act without a requirement that all attendees prove they have been vaccinated.
How do these people intend to attract a crowd into their venues? I get emails from our favorite bands about their next show… they talk about socially distancing the crowd, etc. If they don’t require a shot card, they won’t get me to attend, ever.
Cultural change? I hope so. I’m disappointed the Federal government isn’t moving towards providing a difficult to counterfeit shot card for travel and social events, like ball games, etc. Wife wants to see baseball again!
jonas
@Roger Moore:
This is right — like with any immunization drive, the point is to achieve herd immunity so that those who *can’t* get a vaccine are still protected. What pisses me off is that these scofflaw assholes benefit from those of use who followed the rules, stayed home, didn’t run around partying with friends on the beach for a year, and now worked hard to get vaccinated. It’s like how local right wing cranks who (still) write letters to the editor in the local paper complaining about how all these see these days are minorities on welfare spending their food stamps on lobster and cake at the supermarket or something, while they worked hard and saved and bootstraps yada yada. Yeah? Well I know how you feel. Is there a word for someone who free-rides on others’ public health consciousness? Anti-vax queen?
Fair Economist
In addition to the numerous nutcases, younger children won’t have an approved vaccine for a couple months, most likely, so we’re not going to be at herd immunity for a while yet. I’m expecting a very schizophrenic summer where most people are vaccinated and out celebrating but the hospitals will still be clogged with sick and dying antivaxxers.
I agree once we’re at maximum vaccination, passporting is pointless. It won’t protect the relatively small group that can’t be vaccinated, because passports will exclude them too. Passporting *is* useful while we’re in the process of vaccination. I’m intending to restart social gatherings in my house once I can get my vaccine (frustratingly delayed; still no appointment even though I’m supposed to be eligible as of last Monday) and proof of vaccination is going to be required for an invite until the case rates become negligible, which I’m expecting to happen in the early fall.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
I’m like most everyone whose comment I’ve read so far. This a pandemic. It’s not normal, it is an abnormal event and while herd immunity can be reached overall without everyone vaccinated, there are areas that will never reach that if a high percentage of the local population resist. We’ve vaccinated a lot of people in the last few days, we open up to all in less than 2 weeks in CA, just over in the resisting places, so yes there will be pretty good herd immunity within 2-3 months in most parts of the country, but there will be pockets/states without and that will fuck up the entire country, because those areas will not be as isolated as they need to be, not to spread a disease that is so easily passed from one to another. Take a look at Brazil, where stupid demands attention at the top of the food chain. It’s like looking at shitforbrains II. We’ve had more than a year of pandemic, getting towards 600,000 dead, all because ignorant, stupid fucking assholes want to prove to everyone else that they are ignorant, stupid, fucking assholes. If it were only them that would die off it still would be stupid, but it isn’t. They act as if they are free to kill anyone they want to die. That isn’t a freedom that we actually have in this country, to be a mass murderer. Or even murder a single person. It’s illegal in every state, county, city, every square mile.
germy
Major Major Major Major
One thing that’s good is that the mRNA vaccines will be super easy to tweak for variants.
Sloane Ranger
Cambridge won both the womens and mens races – damn! Still, there’s always next year.
J R in WV
@Major Major Major Major:
I sure hope so. In my dream of the future, every pharmacy and doctor’s office will offer new Covid boosters, free for all, pretty much all the time.
For ALL the variants.
But there are people who never get a flu shot… even working in medical facilities. Was shocked into silence when helper at opthalmoligist office mentioned she never gets a flu shot. Should lose that job instantly.
The Dr should have annual “We all get vaccinated” mornings. Play that game or get the hell out! You know there are patients coming in there who CAN’T get a vaccination!
Major Major Major Major
@StringOnAStick:
On the other hand! We figured out how to write directly to the immune system! It’s amazing! That’s really going to change medicine from here on out.
debbie
Ron Desantis is a human bobblehead. I watched a clip of his condemnation of passports and his head actually moves like a bobblehead!
debbie
Aren’t the COVID-19 Vaccination Record Cards basically already passports?
Dorothy A. Winsor
@WaterGirl: I suspect the majority of my neighbors would object to that, though it would be so good for them. It’s not only the content of Fox that’s harmful, though god knows it it. It’s also the tone. They’re just constantly angry, victimized, or mocking. That’s got to be contagious
Major Major Major Major
@J R in WV: I mean Pfizer came up with the idea they ended up using in like two days. Swapping out the mRNA strand, from what I’ve read, is as close to child’s play as you can get with this stuff. Figuring out the exact sequence to use is I think trickier, but invention and approval ought to be much faster this time around.
ETA as for how often we’ll need boosters, hopefully this just gets subsumed into the population like other coronaviruses did, and we will soon develop enough of a memory response that mutations aren’t much worse than a cold.
WaterGirl
@Dorothy A. Winsor: My thinking is that if you ask the powers that be to change the channel, and others in your group ask them to change the channel, that may change their behavior. Or ask for CNN on M-W-F and FOX on Th-Th and alternate weekends.
My mom always said they can’t say ‘yes’ unless you ask.
edit: You don’t have to say that FOX lies or bring politics into it. You can just say that you and a number of other residents that you have been talking to find the FOX channel “upsetting” and it stresses you out. Or however you might want to have the conversation in a non-political way.
Lacuna Synecdoche
@KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager)):
Probably not.
Because the world needs CEO’s?
sdhays
@Baud: Atrios has been saying this for awhile, and I while I agree with that to some extent, I also think that talking about it sooner rather than later will help minimize the true number of dead-enders. There’s a difference between dead-ender and overly-cautious or procastinator, and we need everyone who’s not an anti-vaxxer moron to get the vaccine as soon as possible. So the more people we can get to choose now not to be a hold-out, the better off we all are
ETA: Better to worry about it now and get as many people as possible ready to get vaccinated as soon as vaccine is available than to not worry about it at all and then stall out later in the summer and only then start trying to figure out how to get the stragglers.
Major Major Major Major
@sdhays: yeah it’s kind of weird, this idea that we can’t work on vaccinating people while also working on communicating with people.
Baud
@sdhays:
@Major Major Major Major:
I don’t think wringing our hands over an unknown number of holdouts is a productive way to get more people to not be holdouts
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: it’s a known number, we have polls, and I don’t think anybody is suggesting just wringing our hands, and I still don’t see how addressing it detracts from other efforts.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major:
Polls are not useful. The polls now are different than they were a few months ago.
Hungry Joe
I’m 30 days-plus on my second shot, and when I walk Alice the Dog it’s easy to avoid others — we never, ever come within ten feet of anyone. But I still wear a mask because I want to be SEEN wearing a mask, hoping to contribute to a cumulative effect: The more that hesitant people see others wearing masks, or hear about others getting the vaccine, the more their hesitancy will weaken.
That’s the theory, anyway. But by now I’m so used to it that the other day, in the middle of a walk, I thought, “Uh-oh — I forgot to put on a mask!” — and then realized that I was, in fact, wearing one.
Betsy
@WaterGirl: I have a feeling that rewards will be offered in the not-too-distant future. Get your shot, get $100.
Phone banks may even be offered with a pre-appointment, since “nudge” principles mean that outreach + convenience immensely increase uptake of the thing offered.
I’m certain that upwards of 85% of the shitty, addled, ignorant, and ultimately supremely selfish holdouts will let go of their ostensible “principles” and readily discard their ignorantly-conceived-of “rights” to get that $$$.
These people need gas for their guzzlers, after all, so they can make their usual testosterone-poisoned show of gunning through wherever it is they want to go.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: because people’s minds change! Which suggests they’re open to communication strategies! This isn’t rocket surgery. And I still don’t see how addressing it detracts from other efforts.
Betsy
@KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager)): Bet you an apple he’s afraid of needles and doesn’t want to say it
(No shade on those who would like to get it but are struggling to come to terms with needle phobia)
J R in WV
If I ran a place that wanted to attract people in order to make a living…
I would have a giant sign:
I think I would get more and better traffic than without the sign, certainly healthier for staff and guests! Fewer shitheads, also too!
Another Scott
@Betsy: Obligatory SNL Skit – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocJCAfFQgCQ (4:54)
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: I had not seen that. Too funny!
Gvg
The ones I worry about now are those who really fear shots. There seem to be quite a few, more than I expected. I actually wonder if some anti vaxers are really using it for an excuse because they fear shots. I think we need to make some kind of tranquilizers available with a doctors prescription. I suspect my nephew is secretly afraid. He’s 13 and a hospital doctors son, so he knows how important it is but I have picked up some uneasiness. Once we move into vaccinating kids, I would expect it to be more of a factor. This shot tends to hurt more than any shot I recall as a kid.
mrmoshpotato
@J R in WV: Thankfully for Baud, your sign doesn’t address the pantsless.
StringOnAStick
@WaterGirl: The rec centre in the town we used to live in had an even/odd day system for playing CNN and FOX. FOX was in odd days, which fits.
Kent
Announce loudly for all to hear.
“Geez…wearing your mask under your nose is just like wearing your underwear under your penis. It completely defeats the purpose doesn’t it?”
StringOnAStick
@Major Major Major Major: You are correct about the amazingness of being able to write directly to the immune system. My husband has a cousin who is friends with someone high up at Moderna (just learned this on Friday), and this vaccine is just the tip of the iceberg of what they think they can do with this technology. It might be the platform that cures my husband’s CLL someday.
Kent
Here in the Pacific Northwest, pretty much every single business already has great big “masks required” signs on every entrance door. I think the state passes them out free.
I saw a maskless guy in the grocery store yesterday for the first time in a long time. Compliance is near 100% here in my neighborhood
satby
@Roger Moore: The EEOC has already said it can be required by employers now. And if the doctor had let me, I would already have fired three refuseniks. She’s less hardcore than I am. None of them raised religious exemptions, and since dealing with patients directly is their job, we don’t have to accommodate them under ADA rules, none of them fall under those anyway. I live in a red area, as the assholery continues, my attitudes toward them have hardened. Approaching diamond levels of don’t give a fuck.
thebewilderness
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I agree that the border is where it will matter very much.
WaterGirl
@satby: Are you close to hiring enough replacements that you can let these people go?
Ruckus
@Mike in NC:
They are jealous of shitforbrains ability to lie about his money, be a racist asshole, and to have won the presidency, it shows them that they too can be a success, that their racism and hate are OK, not only OK but good. It’s a part of the concept that they didn’t storm the capital, they took back their rightful place in the order of things.
I never said that it makes sense, or is in any way reasonable or proper, only that they can justify the whole ugly mess in their minds. This country has a history of racism, slavery, repression, just like many other countries around the world and that has never really been handled in any way to change that, other than overt slavery. We still have many parts of this country where the overt racism builds a version of slavery, the slavery of poverty and racist law enforcement that continues the straight line of racism that has existed here for over 200 yrs. Is it as bad as it was 50 or 100 yrs ago? No, it is not. Is it anywhere near where it should be? No, it is not.
Do I have an answer? No, because I don’t have a clue how to convince people that their hate is wrong. I wish I did, but I don’t see it. I grew up in a family that didn’t speak of it, practice it, believe it. But it has been all around me my entire life, same as all of us. Hate is a part of us, every human being. We don’t have to put it at the forefront of our lives, as many do. We can deal with it better, not direct it to others for no valid reason. Racism is not a valid reason, in any way. It is a made up concept, because we are not colorblind and we can hear and make asinine judgements, be taught hate for hates sake, chose to be ignorant, defy logic and reason.
satby
@WaterGirl: Yep. But I expect one, maybe two to fold once the doctor is finally ready to pull the trigger on letting them go.
@Betsy: Several places already tried bribes, including mine. Didn’t work. Might for the simply lazy, but for the anti-vaxxers, I don’t think it will.
Geminid
Pro sports leagues generally have been keen on enforcing social distancing rules and regular Covid testing regimens. Two weeks into the last NFL season, the league had fined six coaches $100,000 each for not properly masking during games. Their teams were fined $250,000 each, and many more fines followed for various acts of non-compliance. Other professional leagues have been as strict.
NFL ownership was probably as responsible for this hard line as the player’s union. The owners are, by and large, hardheaded businessmen who could understand the danger of the pandemic. Like Walmart, they know that you cannot sell stuff to dead people.
The fact that most players have not been vaccinated is good, circumspect business practice. These athletes are almost all under 40 years old, and few have risk factors. Were the players to jump the vaccine line, they would be much resented for that priviledge.
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
I believe that the new vaccine methodology is far better. I’ve been hospitalized after inoculation in the past, as I’ve written here. I have a very strong reaction to bee stings and have had to be taken to a hospital – I have Epi pens. Now I don’t get reactions to some/most vaccines, but in the last 4 yrs I’ve had massive bad reactions to meds that have been prescribed since before I was born, with little issues. I made sure to tell the folks at the VA when I got my Pfizer shot and spent 30 min waiting. My reaction to the Pfizer, first and second, match with the average reactions. IOW I’m on the very cautious side of vaccination, not because of an bullshit rumors but because of very real medical history and concern. And yes we do not know long term reactions/results with any of these. But all things considered, this seems like one of the safest vaccines ever, with one of the highest immunity levels of all time. Science may actually be working.
Ksmiami
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: isolate them and let these places die off like they did in 1918-1920…
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
Unfortunately willful ignorance is often not terminally stupid. At one time, when life was more dangerous, yes it was closer to being terminal for many, depending on the willfulness and the level of ignorance. Society is safer now than when we were kids and it was safer when we were than when our grandparents were. But with the level of willful ignorance in the US (and the world!) I’m not holding my breath till it gets better.
E.
I own a bakery and we strictly require masks. We throw someone out several times a week. This is a very Red, very rural county, where anti-mask sentiment is high. About half the people in the local grocery store are masked, including about half the employees. Lately our customers have been asking us when we will lift the requirement now that “Covid is mostly over and no one wears masks any more.” They are not being hostile, they are just wondering how long they are going to have to do this silly and pointless thing in order to shop at my bakery. (The hostile ones no longer come in at all — I’ve lost a *lot* of customers).
So I am struggling with what to do. I get my second dose on April 8 and it seems to me that just about anyone in my town who wants the vaccine will have been able to get it by May 1. My employees are all fully vaccinated or, like me, about to get their second dose.
I am worried that if I keep this up much longer I will lose what is left of my business. No one else in my town, possibly my entire county, is as strict about it as I have been. (I’ve also been active on the County Health Dept. Facebook page and elsewhere — that didn’t do me any favors either, but you gotta try . . . )
Ruckus
@germy:
I was walking home from work one day and was yelled at for wearing a mask from a pickup truck driving down the road. I’m absolutely sure he saw my solitary finger raised high over my head. Now I don’t live where you do but it’s not mask nirvana either. But others walking will/have walked into the street and I will do that as well, if the other person isn’t wearing a mask, and many will put one one as they walk towards me. It is at least mostly respectful of mask wearing. Even some of the homeless few wear a mask.
Ruckus
@E.:
Thank you.
Ksmiami
@E.: can you build a strong online presence so you can ship to a wider audience?
J R in WV
@mrmoshpotato:
Well, Naw. I don’t wear pants around the place much, unless I need heavy jeans to go do work with like a chain saw or something like that.
So pants are optional, except for hard work… and you know baud won’t be into any of THAT.
WaterGirl
@satby:
If she is a softie, I wonder if that will ever happen.
WaterGirl
@E.: For the sake of your health, and that of your employees, please wait until 3 weeks after the last employee has had their last shot.
I would absolutely frequent a business where they are tough on masking, and I would give them my support going forward, also.
Also, good bakeries are hard to come by, so I bet you have not lost customers forever.
Are you the bakery owner here that talked of not being able to get 50 lb bags of flour for awhile because your suppliers had started selling directly to consumers during the great run on flour?
E.
@Ksmiami: just not set up for that, and it’s not my vibe. We make artisan sourdoughs, flatbreads, and pastas that would ship but our pastries wouldn’t, and I am not personally suited to that business model.
E.
@WaterGirl: Yeah that was me! Those were some tough times in my industry!
TriassicSands
Get used to it. I’m seeing the same thing from the partially informed. They are vaccinated but are ignoring the part about continuing to wear a mask and social distancing. I was in a local produce market yesterday and a ~75-year-old woman walked in without a mask. She is the first person I’ve seen in that store without a mask in many months. I have been fortunate to live in an area with relatively low infection rates and reasonably high precaution rates. Of course, there have always been the “deadenders,” but they haven’t been that common. On the other hand, the local mayor proudly attended the super spreader motorcycle event in South Dakota and later canned the much more intelligent and responsible city manager.later
If possible, the American people will eventually triumph over the vaccines and feed the variants. It’s what we do.
WaterGirl
@E.: It’s been quite a year for you. Don’t give up. Good bakeries are a godsend.
Geminid
@E.: Yours is a tough situation. Where I live, scrupulous business owners are backed up by local and state mandates. It sounds like you are in a lonelier spot. I would not blame you at all if you choose to preserve the business you must have worked hard for, and the jobs of your employees, over mandatory masking.
Ruckus
@CaseyL:
Well except that they refuse to actually grow up.
cain
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Fuck em the Covid will just keep spreading there and pick em off slowly. Meanwhile the young will completely move off.
Ruckus
@Lacuna Synecdoche:
We do?
I find this difficult to make fun of because I’ve actually been the CEO (also the chief cook and bottle washer, but I digress) of a corporation.
But then again that was tiny, 6-7 employees other than me, and for a while my semi retired father, who had been CEO before me.
I’ve also known a CEO who were actually a really good human being, who retired after the board of directors publicly screwed him big time, and who was followed by a series of complete, utter, fucking morons, until I left and started over.
trnc
Is he Catholic? IOW, is he anti stem cell?
jackmac
@Cheryl Rofer:
Short videos of raging anti-mask wearers (and presumably anti-vaxers) show up on Tik Tok every so often. It’s amusing to watch them make fools of themselves.
LiminalOwl (formerly The Fat White Duchess)
@smith: Except in the case of disability or “sincerely held religious belief.”
Unlike my husband, I am not anti-religious. And I still wish that religious privilege would… I dunno: go away? Stop being privileged? Not sure why it infuriates me, but it does.
LiminalOwl (formerly The Fat White Duchess)
@Nicole: Shame triggers activity in the amygdala, and the frontal lobes go off-line. I admit that I don’t see anti-maskers as having a whole lot of frontal-lobe activity anyway, but do we really want it shutting down entirely?
Soprano2
@Betsy: My employer is offering incentives for the shot. 1st dose is a $20 gift card, 2nd dose a day off with pay. They’re lining up for it.
Chris T.
This might actually backfire. Humans are irrational. I’m not good at predicting the irrationality, but this could be one of those cases where people who are already paranoid about this sort of thing, get worse because of such an offer.
(There’s a weird discontinuity at “free”, too, which makes people think that something that costs $.01 is “more valuable” than something that’s “free”. That might already be a bit of a problem. However, many people like to get things that are “free”, so overall this is probably more of a plus than a minus, here.)