Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

After roe, women are no longer free.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

They are lying in pursuit of an agenda.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

In my day, never was longer.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

You are here: Home / Civil Rights / Racial Justice / Black Lives Matter / Verdict Reached (Open Thread)

Reader Interactions

287Comments

  2. 2.

    Soprano2

    Yep, just got this notice on my phone. I think it’s a good thing it wasn’t drawn out for days and days. Let’s hope for justice.

  5. 5.

    Larch

    All Hennepin County courthouse workers told to leave downtown immediately. That doesn’t sound good, but it could be a pre-planned decision in the case of _any_ verdict.

  8. 8.

    NotMax

    As there are multiple charges, am expecting a split as to determination of guilt in each of them.

  9. 9.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Larch: IANAL but I can’t imagine a unanimous vote to acquit, and I think it’s too soon for a hung jury. I think judges can/will refuse to accept a hung jury?

  10. 10.

    DMac

    Fast verdict just means (in general) that it was easy for the jury to reach a verdict.
    It seems impossible that the entire jury could sit through all that evidence and reach anything OTHER than a GUILTY verdict but….you never know. We’ll know soon. Hoping and praying for justice for George Floyd.

  12. 12.

    Wapiti

    @Larch: It’s not bad as a pre-planned decision. If the verdict causes rioting, you want your people out of there. If the verdict causes a street party, you might as well let your people go home a whole hour early. Before the cops riot.

  13. 13.

    MisterForkbeard

    It’s not a hung jury, which is great.

    Did anyone see that Kayleigh McEnany let the words “I don’t believe a President should inflame situations” fly out of her pie hole? What a horrible, awful person. She’s getting roundly roasted for it, but she attacked Biden because he waited to comment until after the Jury Sequestration started so he wouldn’t affect the case, and all he said was “I think the evidence is overwhelming and I hope the right verdict is reached.”

    Oh noes :)

  15. 15.

    Elizabelle

    That was fast.  I am guessing it’s a guilty verdict, on some count, at the minimum.

    Do the right thing, jurors.

    I thought the prosecutor’s closing statement, about all the witnesses to Mr. Floyd’s death, who could do nothing, but the jury can — was very effective.

  16. 16.

    Gravenstone

    @germy: Yet I’m sure she was entirely fine with every one of the multiple instances of TFG publicly pronouncing his views of various trials across the nation. Hypocrisy much?

  17. 17.

    MisterForkbeard

    @germy: Jenna Ellis can go fuck herself. Biden waited until after jury sequestration had started, so it has provably no effect on the trial. Keep in mind this is also vastly less than anything Trump ever did.

    But I think we can see where this is going. They’re going to pretend Biden and Maxine Waters did something unforgivable and ruined the justice system and it’ll become another shibboleth on the right for the next decade. “Joe Biden intervened to put innocent cops in prison”

  18. 18.

    NotMax

    BTW,

    Jurors will not be released from service after they deliver their verdict. Instead, they will be instructed to decide on aggravating factors alleged by the prosecution. Source

  19. 19.

    Elizabelle

    @MisterForkbeard:  Who gives a fuck what Jenna Ellis or any of those morons say?  Truly?

    Save your energy for more important things.  They are just there to provoke.  Ignore their asses.

  22. 22.

    Betty Cracker

    On CNN, the anchor said the jury hadn’t forwarded a single note to the judge.

  23. 23.

    PST

    Obviously no hung jury, which is realistically what Chauvin wanted. And an acquittal seems out of the question. So what we are waiting for is the degree of culpability. I honestly believe that it will be one of the murder charges. The evidence was too overwhelming to have every juror reject them both so quickly.

  24. 24.

    Another Scott

    Conventional wisdom is that a fast verdict is a conviction. It’s not necessarily so, and sometimes it’s wrong, but no defense attorney feels GOOD about a fast verdict.

    — AngloSaxonTraditionsHat (@Popehat) April 20, 2021

    FWIW.

    As I said downstairs, I assume that most of the deliberation time was deciding what charge to convict him of, not whether he would be convicted. I, obviously, have no evidence one way or the other though.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  25. 25.

    PST

    @NotMax: I thought Chauvin waived the right for a jury determination of aggravating factors, so that will be up to the judge. I could be wrong.

  29. 29.

    JML

    My gut says that fast verdict in this case means he’s guilty, probably of the top count in the indictment. If they were figuring out 3rd degree murder my guess is it might have taken longer, and I have trouble seeing a unanimous “not guilty”. The defense’s best hope has always been the hang the jury, IMHO.

    But you never know. Juries can be weird.

  32. 32.

    Amir Khalid

    @Larch:
    I understand that the city is expecting unrest whichever way the verdict goes, and is planning accordingly. That seems only prudent.

  33. 33.

    trollhattan

    @MisterForkbeard:

    Jenna Ellis can go fuck herself. Biden waited until after jury sequestration had started, so it has provably no effect on the trial. Keep in mind this is also vastly less than anything Trump ever did.

    The Texas Rangers scouts were outside banging Biden’s comments on garbage cans that could easily be heard inside the building.

  35. 35.

    hueyplong

    Has the jury asked any questions?  If not, it would be weird to acquit so quickly.

     

    (I have worked not to pay close attention.)

  38. 38.

    Lavocat

    Oh yeah. Quick turn-around-times on verdicts are almost always good for the prosecution. Of course, it’s not written in stone and it ain’t over til it’s over.

    Fingers crossed!

  39. 39.

    germy

    A reminder that Chauvin faces three charges. In order of seriousness, they are second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter. He could be convicted on all of the charges, some or none.— Jan Wolfe (@JanNWolfe) April 20, 2021

  42. 42.

    Dan B

    @JML: With so many POC on the jury a rapid unanimous decision would most likely be guilty.  Hard to imagine what these jurors would face family and friends if they ruled innocent.

    Could be wrong as my “expert” knowledge of Lithium battery fires proved.  I remain hopeful and awaiting lunch.  It will not be a lawyer lunch since I’m not.

  43. 43.

    Amir Khalid

    @dmsilev:

    Harvard can afford to give refunds, surely. I heard its endowment makes it the wealthiest university on the planet. That said, it shouldn’t be blamed for graduates who willfully misuse or abuse what they learned there.

  44. 44.

    Miki

    @NotMax: I don’t think this is correct – Chauvin waived his right to have the jury make findings, and agreed to let the judge do it.

  45. 45.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Benw: There are times when “Guilty AF” needs to be an official verdict. This is one of those times.

  48. 48.

    MisterForkbeard

    @trollhattan: Nah, she’s parlayed it into plenty of success. She’s just a giant liar and all-around terrible human being.

    Harvard should be demanding an apology from her at the same time it apologizes for letting her past whatever filters they had for “gaslighting nazi”.

  49. 49.

    WaterGirl

    Chauvin, 45, has pleaded not guilty to charges of second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter.

    The second-degree unintentional murder charge alleges Chauvin caused Floyd’s death “without intent” while committing or attempting to commit felony third-degree assault. In turn, third-degree assault is defined as the intentional infliction of substantial bodily harm.

    The third-degree murder charge alleges Chauvin caused Floyd’s death by “perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life.”

    The second-degree manslaughter charge alleges Chauvin caused Floyd’s death by “culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm.”

    Each of the three charges requires prosecutors to prove that Chauvin’s actions were not objectively reasonable and that they were a substantial cause of Floyd’s death. But the charges differ primarily in how they interpret his intent and mindset during his restraint of Floyd.

  51. 51.

    Anonymous At Work

    Not a PRACTICING attorney but…

    Quick verdict = unanimous jury = guilty verdict on most serious count.

  53. 53.

    MisterForkbeard

    @WaterGirl: I’d probably go with the 2nd-degree murder charge myself. He accidentally killed Floyd through negligence while assaulting him.

    I could see a Jury going with third-degree or manslaughter, though.

  55. 55.

    CaseyL

    Oh, jeez.  I wished they only announced that they’d reached a verdict when they were ready to actually give it, but I do understand why extra precautions have to be taken.

    After what we’ve learned about the Oath Keepers and Three Percenters infiltrating law enforcement at every level, though, even a guilty verdict will not obviate the urgent need to scour police forces of white supremacists.

  59. 59.

    Barbara

    @Dan B: I looked at a description of the individual jurors and I tend to agree, but I must also tell you that a marquis defense attorney told me (with respect to the O.J. Simpson jury) that a super fast verdict over serious charges was more likely to be acquittal, because juries feel constrained to be thorough when they are imposing guilt for serious charges.  Simpson jury was only out for 90 minutes.  He told me what to expect and he was right.

  60. 60.

    Roger Moore

    @Larch:

    All Hennepin County courthouse workers told to leave downtown immediately. That doesn’t sound good, but it could be a pre-planned decision in the case of _any_ verdict.

    AFAIK, the first time anyone outside the jury knows the verdict is when they return to court.  They don’t do the reading of the verdict for drama; it’s really when everyone in the room learns the outcome.

  61. 61.

    Thaddeu

    I am at a loss to understand why a guilty verdict would do anything. A not guilty verdict would be the better one.

    The whole system of policing — unbridled use of power ,  qualified immunity,  pretext traffic stops, “reasonable use” of deadly force etc — must collapse on it’s own, by the exposing the rottenness  of the a system which allows actions like  Chauvin’s,  to be perfectly legal , justified and reasonable.

    The police system and justice system should not escape by passing the buck to Chauvin. Then  it  continues to  survive  and thrive to kill and destroy many more .. “See, it was just one rotten apple”

    The  barrel itself is rotten; not just the apples, and not just a few of the apples. Picking one bad apple out does nothing.

  62. 62.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Baud: Same. Even a good result isn’t exactly heartwarming.

    The best result we get is that a cop can murder someone in broad daylight, cause enormous amounts of unrest, get defended by a major political party because he killed a black guy, and then with all that publicity, documentation and evidence we got a guilty verdict for this one cop and maybe his colleagues who watched him do it without complaint.

  63. 63.

    geg6

    @NotMax: ​
     
    I was watching yesterday when he waived that and requested that the judge determine guilt on aggravating factors.

  64. 64.

    Lyrebird

    @Another Scott: Glad to know he’s back in tweeting action.

    Do the right thing, jury!

    Hard to hope, but on DKos I saw that even Pat Robertson, yes THAT Pat Robertson, sees that Chauvin did wrong.

  65. 65.

    Elizabelle

    Wonderful story to read in the meantime.  The home site Harriet Tubman lived in during her formative teen years, on the Eastern Shore of Maryland near Cambridge, has been found.  Cabin of her father, Ben Ross, no longer stands, but they are finding plenty of artifacts.

    Will have to read up on Harriett Tubman.  She chose the name “Harriet” for herself.  And later rescued two siblings and her parents.  Will have to think of Ben Ross on Father’s Day.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/04/20/harriet-tubman-maryland-home-found/

    Harriet Tubman was born Araminta “Minty” Ross about 1822 outside the hamlet of Tobacco Stick, modern-day Madison, in Dorchester County, according to Kate Clifford Larson’s biography, “Bound for the Promised Land.”

    ….  As a child, Tubman was beaten by a mistress who slept with a whip under her pillow, so she began to work outdoors.

    There, in part under the tutelage of her father, she checked muskrat traps, broke flax and hauled logs with a team of oxen she was later permitted to purchase.

    She was only 5 feet tall, but her work made her strong.

    Her know-how gave her some freedom of movement and she was able to live in her father’s cabin roughly between 1839 and 1844, when she was ages 17 to 22, Larson said.

    “She got to live with him, worked in the woods with him,” Larson said in an interview.

    “He was an amazing figure, and a committed father,” she said. “He taught her how to survive. … She learned how to survive in those woods. She learned how to read the night sky. … He taught her things that helped her become the woman she was.”
    He also told her about the Underground Railroad. “He was an Underground Railroad agent himself,” Larson said.

  66. 66.

    Roger Moore

    @trollhattan: ​
     

    She should demand a refund from Harvard. That degree did not work for her.

    To the contrary, it did exactly what a Harvard degree was supposed to do for her: it got her into the club. Any actual education was strictly secondary.

  67. 67.

    Raven

    @Barbara: This fellow has argued before the supremes

     

    Take this with a grain of salt, but here is my best lawyer intuition based on the ratio of length of trial to length of jury deliberations in the Chauvin case.

    It is a conviction of some type on one of the charges. My best guess is murder in the third-degree.

  68. 68.

    Gravenstone

    @Thaddeu: Heighten those contradictions much more, and there will be widespread bloodshed. So let’s just convict the fucker and then continue the work of reforming an admittedly broken system in a more methodical and controlled manner, shall we?

  69. 69.

    Larch

    Geographical context for whatever comes next:  the Hennepin County courthouse is 32 blocks NORTH (sorry) & 3-4 blocks west of where George Floyd was killed.  Totally walkable in a pretty direct route. The site of the former 3rd precinct police station (out of which Chauvin & co. worked and which was burned during the riots last year) is about 25 blocks south of the courthouse but about 15 or so blocks east, across some gnarly highways.

     

    South Minneapolis is laid out on a pretty rigid grid, with downtown (also a rigid grid) at about a 45 degree angle from the neighborhood streets.  The courthouse is the block bounded by 3rd-4th Sts & 5th-6th Aves downtown.  Floyd was killed at 38th & Chicago Ave (Chicago = 8th avenue). The former 3rd precinct was at Lake St (Lake = 30th street) and 21st Ave.

     

    Hope that helps

  70. 70.

    Betty Cracker

    @WaterGirl: Thanks. I was wondering about the difference between second-degree unintentional murder and second-degree manslaughter. Seems like an odd way to break it down, but IMO, Chauvin committed all three of those crimes.

  72. 72.

    Ruckus

    @MisterForkbeard:

    I can see them going with the maximum charge, rather easily.

    This is known to be a deadly hold.  He knew the man he was applying that knee to. He stayed there long after George went limp, seemingly as insurance that he got the result he wanted.

  73. 73.

    geg6

    I just hope against hope that the jury did the right thing here.  I can’t imagine the chaos an acquittal would bring.

  74. 74.

    debbie

    My stomach hurts with the waiting. But I remember the judge saying he wanted to release the verdict during the day. He’s kind of pushing things waiting like this, no?

  75. 75.

    jnfr

    Some of my friends are pissed, or at least annoyed, that Biden addressed this at all. Republicans are already winding up the outrage machine at both him and Maxine Waters.

  77. 77.

    Baud

    @jnfr:

    Republicans are already winding up the outrage machine

    I checked the calendar and it is a day ending in “y.”

  79. 79.

    geg6

    @jnfr:

    Who gives a shit what they think?  Seriously.  No one I know thinks what happened to George Floyd was right.  And that includes even some Trumpers.  Mainly because they, too, have grudges against asshole cops.

    ETA: They have those grudges because they are what are labeled as poor white trash.  Not enough people of color around here to keep the cops happy harassing them, so they can take out their sadistic and authoritarian jollies out on the poor white trash.

  80. 80.

    Amir Khalid

    @Thaddeu:

    I am at a loss to understand why a guilty verdict would do anything. A not guilty verdict would be the better one.

    I disagree. The “heightening the contradictions” approach was a terrible idea when old-time Marxists preached it — it simply didn’t work in real life — and it’s a terrible idea now. A guilty verdict would at least put Derek Chauvin’s culpability on the public record, and send out the message that police brutality has consequences for brutal cops. It needs to happen more often, for sure, but it will be a good start if it happens this time.

  81. 81.

    Sabonis15

    This makes the judges statement today about Maxine Waters appear more irresponsible, given the extremely low probability that her statement moved 12 minds, or the minimal probability that even one mind was sitting on the mistrial fence and her statement (which was irresponsible IMO), pushed that person off it.  Unless evidence emerges that a juror’s view was tainted by what the Representative, this judge should be reprimanded.

  82. 82.

    Betty Cracker

    @dmsilev: I had that thought after 2004. I’ve since come to believe that for some folks, contradiction height is infinitely elastic and that those people tend to be every bit as scary as the monsters they pretend to oppose.

  83. 83.

    Ruckus

    @Thaddeu:

    You could have a point, if the management of most police departments didn’t agree to some level with cops like DC. It is up to the people/local/state governments to change what goes on in our names.

  85. 85.

    KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))

    @MisterForkbeard:

    Kayleigh McEnany let the words “I don’t believe a President should inflame situations” fly out of her pie hole?

    I’m sorry, didn’t the former guy praise Kyle Rittenhouse for crossing state lines with an illegally obtained long gun and killing two people??? Did he not do that repeatedly? Before there was a trial?

    She can just STFU and DIAF.

  87. 87.

    tinare

    Not an attorney, but sat on a couple of juries. This (relatively) quick decision IMO means the prosecution did its job.

  89. 89.

    JWR

    The morning the O.J. verdict came in, I heard a pretty good interview with a couple of leftie lawyers, and they said that, in that case, a quick verdict meant not guilty. I forget why, exactly, but their prediction meant that I’d just won a bet with my co-workers. And no, I didn’t follow the case at all.

  90. 90.

    Gwangung

    Heighten the contradiction is a stupid concept in that it HAS to have a working framework in society. Contradiction that are TOO heightened brings down the entire society…and there’s no guarantee a just system replaces it.

  95. 95.

    WaterGirl

    @JWR: I followed it all for the OJ trial, and even came home from work or took a longer lunch hour in order to watch the verdict.  I felt like I had been kicked in the stomach when the verdict came down, though I now see how they came to that verdict.

  96. 96.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Larch:

    I think it was pre-planned. Local schools in Twin Cities area will be virtual the rest of the week, regardless of the verdict. So I heard.

  97. 97.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Elizabelle: If you haven’t already, check out the tv series Underground.  Season 2 features Harriet Tubman, and in general, the series, though fictional, went out of its’ way to be pretty historically accurate.  And it is really fantastic.

  98. 98.

    Amir Khalid

    @debbie:

    I think the highest degree of murder generally requires proof of premeditation: i.e. that Chauvin showed up intending to kill George Floyd. That would have been very hard to prove.

  99. 99.

    geg6

    @debbie:

    That would be absurd.  Absolutely absurd.  Not that some wingnut judge is beyond being absurd, but they could always poll the jury about whether they even know who Auntie Maxine is.

  100. 100.

    jnfr

    @geg6:

    I can’t imagine how much crap Obama would be taking if he were in Biden’s place.

    And yeah, baud. The outrage is so very predictable.

  101. 101.

    WaterGirl

    I have MSNBC on (paused) while we wait.  I just fast forwarded since it’s 3:30.  Could Brian Williams just retire already?  I don’t want to ever hear another word from his mouth.

  102. 102.

    MisterForkbeard

    @trollhattan: Jim Jordan’s newest schtick is to be a gigantic asshole to black women in congress, who then loudly tell him to shut the fuck up.

    He’ll go fundraising on this from the White Boys.

  105. 105.

    Rusty

    You would never get a hung jury this quick in any trial.  The judge would send them back to keep deliberating.  Hung juries are when the jury has been deliberating for a week (or weeks) and can’t decide.  The prospect of having to sit for a very long time with the other jurors tends to focus the mind.

  106. 106.

    Miki

    Clerked for a district court judge in Minnesota for 2 years in the mid-80s. My recollection in criminal cases is fast verdict, guilty if defendant is likeable, not guilty if defendant is not likeable, whether or not they take the stand. So my bet is on guilty on Murder 3 and Manslaughter, for sure and maybe also Murder 2 if they find excessive force.

    Frankly, I think the State did a better job with their experts than atty Nelson did with his. And Nelson’s cross of the State’s experts, while good, didn’t really change the bottom line of any expert opinions.

    As an aside, the judge I worked for had the clerk read the verdict (after showing the completed verdict form/s to the judge). Could be quite a task depending on how much interest the public has in the case (see State v Lois Jurgens). This judge reads the verdicts in his court.

    But! It’s always a crap shoot with juries, so who knows.

    ….

  108. 108.

    tinare

    @Thaddeu: Holding individual police criminally responsible for their behavior curbs the behavior. Too many getting off in the past has led to them believing the can actually get away with murder.

  109. 109.

    Another Scott

    @debbie: I don’t think that’s true, but IANAL.

    Jury is sequestered, no? pic.twitter.com/I1x7iwkRRW— One of the 81,281,502 Biden/Harris voters. (@CrowleyAntmarga) April 20, 2021

    (Tweet shows an image of a LATimes headline blaring “Manson Guilty, Nixon Declares”.)

    Biden and Waters have no power over the jury, and first-amendment rights to free speech don’t go away when a trial is happening.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  111. 111.

    MisterForkbeard

    The NYT feed just went out, for me. Hm.

    ETA: And it’s back. There’s a reflection of a white hand in the lower left of the screen guys. What does it mean!? Maybe Brian Williams can tell us his thoughts.

  112. 112.

    Roger Moore

    @dmsilev:

    After the last four years, how can anyone still think the contradictions need to be heightened?

    It’s much easier to believe we need to heighten the contradictions or let things blow up when someone else will suffer the consequences.  It seems to be trust fund radicals who are most committed to this belief.

  114. 114.

    phein61

    @WaterGirl: Joyce Vance just addressed that on MSNBC.   In some states, like Alabama, it can be almost a momentary thing, while in some states, there has to be a certain time span.   Not sure where Minnesota falls, but it says there must be “planning,” not spontaneity.

  116. 116.

    Elizabelle

    @jnfr:

    Some of my friends are pissed, or at least annoyed, that Biden addressed this at all.

    Get better friends.  You have my permission.

    Returning to life after COVID gives us all a lot of excuses to mix up our social structures.

    A friend was musing this weekend on the people she is going to drop giving any credence or time to.  Enough.  We can make new friends, and sometimes you have to leave the dead wood in the past.

  121. 121.

    Thaddeu

    @dmsilev:

    I dont. As a human being, I want this cop to be guilty, so that the family of Floyd gets justice, and because I consider it as murder

    As a logical thinker, I am terrified that Chauvin will be considered  an outlier, a case far  egregious than all the other cop killings.  Convicting Chauvin basically puts the lid on all those other cop killings where there is a plausible excuse for the cop getting away.

    Back to MLK’s   “the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice” — that is very much alive even after Floyd’s killing.  Its not just whites – its the moral muddled middle, that now exists across all the races to a certain extent  whose only motto is “dont upset my life”.  And I want to shock them out of their moral apathy.

    Apologies for the rant, but that’s how I feel. The best outcome is still the close to the worst outcome.

  122. 122.

    Elizabelle

    BriWi talking about the narrow band of those recruited into law enforcement.  As with the military.

    That has got to change.  We have seen the problems the rightwingers have brought to both professions.

    Tomorrow, I might have to put up a quite interesting story about a bad cop straight outta Fairfax County.  (Why yes, he shuffled on down to Florida and got hired there…  the Brevard County sheriff was shocked, shocked …)  But today, it’s all about the late Mr. George Floyd.

  124. 124.

    Barbara

    @debbie: ​I don’t see how. Maxine Waters is unlikely to be in a position of trust or influence with members of the jury.​ She is one person who has an opinion.

  125. 125.

    dnfree

    @Sabonis15: I don’t understand why, when she’s expressing her opinion, Maxine Waters can’t just say that she is not encouraging violence, looting, or property damage.  Would that be so difficult?

  126. 126.

    rp

    The classic distinction is: 1st degree, you meticulously planned to kidnap and kill the victim; 2nd degree, you catch your wife in bed with another guy and impulsively shoot both of them. But of course there’s miles of grey area in between.

  127. 127.

    MisterForkbeard

    @James E Powell: The  Defense lawyers were already asking about it, basically. The judge in this case basically told them it was silly but they could bring it up during appeal if they wanted to.

    I suppose the real danger here is now the Right have an excuse to pretend the whole thing is a miscarriage of justice if Chauvin is convicted and then to blame it on Democrats, but they were going to do that anyway. And if he’s not convicted, any riots will be blamed on Waters and Biden because they ‘inflamed’ the situation.

    But the Right would do that anyway, so it gets a big shrug from me.

  128. 128.

    Amir Khalid

    @debbie:
    I’ve read that Floyd worked inside the club because he was good with people, while Chauvin worked at the door. It seems they didn’t interact much at that job.

    i

  129. 129.

    rp

    Waters’ comments were very stupid. The judge’s comments about Waters’ comments were also very stupid.

  130. 130.

    Gwangung

    @Thaddeu: No, you’re an idiot if you think 45% of the country can be shocked out of their moral depravity. They won’t be.

    It still take eternal vigilance and keeping the pressure so the immoral 45% don’t get their way.

  131. 131.

    Elizabelle

    @Thaddeu:

    As a logical thinker, I am terrified that Chauvin will be considered  an outlier, a case far  egregious than all the other cop killings.  Convicting Chauvin basically puts the lid on all those other cop killings where there is a plausible excuse for the cop getting away.

    Actually, I think a lot of people realize Chauvin is the tip of the iceberg.

    Also:  Would suggest you change your language.  “Cop killings” can be both killings of law enforcement, and killings by cop, can’t it??   Precision is good.

  132. 132.

    MisterForkbeard

    Not sure if this is correct (saw it in the comments on LGM): “One hour delay in verdict announcement due to “authorities” being put in place throughout the city . . .”

  133. 133.

    feebog

    I’m thinking there was a fairly even split between 2nd, 3rd degree murder and manslaughter.  Compromise on 3rd degree murder.

  135. 135.

    Jinchi

    @JWR: ​

    The morning the O.J. verdict came in, I heard a pretty good interview with a couple of leftie lawyers, and they said that, in that case, a quick verdict meant not guilty.

    In the OJ case, the prosecution made a series of unforced errors and The glove didn’t fit, so , you know….
    In this case, several members of the police and fire department testified against Chauvin and none of his lawyers were Johnny Cochran.​

  137. 137.

    Barbara

    @rp: I agree that her comments were stupid and yet I find it irksome that all manner of sociopaths get to run around bloviating about the tree of liberty needing the refreshment of blood and that’s just rhetoric.

  140. 140.

    Almost Retired

    I’m a labor lawyer, and not a criminal lawyer, but the crim law pros on my Facebook feed are unanimous in their conviction that there will be…..well….a conviction.  Lots of talk as well about the “Minnesota nice” conduct of the trial (respectful deference to experts, easily led witnesses, minimal objections and other disruptions, etc.).  Los Angeles witnesses are much feistier and we lawyers tend to be a bit sharper-of-elbow.  Not to mention the crap we have to eat from LASC Judges, cameras on or not.  Cracked me up (and pissed me off) that the Judge admonished the paramedic who was pushing back on the defense while on the stand.  She would have been a cooperative witness in my world.

  141. 141.

    dmsilev

    @Thaddeu:

    Back to MLK’s   “the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice” — that is very much alive even after Floyd’s killing.  Its not just whites – its the moral muddled middle, that now exists across all the races to a certain extent  whose only motto is “dont upset my life”.  And I want to shock them out of their moral apathy.

    That’s exactly a ‘heighten the contradictions’ argument. And it works only very rarely and is always associated with lots and lots of collateral damage.

  143. 143.

    hueyplong

    @feebog: I don’t understand how a “compromise” can be quickly reached unless they did some signalling to one another during the trial

  144. 144.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @Thaddeu: I’m tired of white people like you who want black people to be sacrificial lambs for your bullshit ideology.

  145. 145.

    Barbara

    @trollhattan: I read an interview with one of the jurors who said that the judge’s instructions practically demanded acquittal and she was not happy.

  146. 146.

    Elizabelle

    @trollhattan:   I could see my blonde nephew in Trayvon.  Just a beautiful young man on the cusp of adulthood.  All those possibilities.

    I never think of Trayvon without a sense of loss.  He would be in his mid-20s now.

  150. 150.

    rp

    @Barbara: I completely agree, but part of what’s annoying about Waters’ comments is that she’s given those tree of liberty idiots a lot of ammunition to claim the system is rigged, etc. I follow some RW accounts on social media just to get a sense of what they’re talking about, they’re practically salivating over her comments.  And, yes, I know that those idiots will find something to scream about, but there was absolutely no reason to give them this soundbite right as the jury is deliberating. The prosecution did it’s job! Stay the f*** out of it until after the trial is done

    ETA: But then the judge made even worse with his inane and unprofessional commentary.

  152. 152.

    Another Scott

    @WaterGirl: I can’t make out the logo on the mic.

    He could be from anywhere.  The case is getting worldwide attention.

    Dunno.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  153. 153.

    Elizabelle

    @trollhattan:   Also, that jury was chosen to be sympathetic to gun owners/users.  They STB (learned that term yesterday, from our very own mistermix; great shorthand.)

  155. 155.

    NetheadJay

    @trollhattan: Team Demings here all the way. Gym Jordan would be fighting dirty for sure but Val is a long-time pro and probably has some even dirtier tricks up her sleeve. Also never bet against a black woman.

  159. 159.

    CaseyL

    PBS also has a live feed up.  I just did a search on YouTube and it came up.  I figure PBS is likely to be the least offensive news coverage, with less bloviating.  I shudder to think of the networks interviewing fucking GQPs to get their take on the verdict, whatever the verdict is.

  165. 165.

    WaterGirl

    @Thaddeu:  I found your comment offensive.

    Please watch this press conference from yesterday with the Governor of MN and the two mayors (Minneapolis and St. Paul).

    Really watch the whole thing, though if you want you can skip the white mayor who was sandwiched in the middle.  That was mostly political pablum.  But it starts with the Governor, then the white mayor of Minneapolis, then the black mayor of St. Paul, then questions taken by the governor at the end.

    Please watch the whole thing if you think Chauvin is going to be sold as one bad apple.

  166. 166.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Elizabelle:

    They STB (learned that term yesterday; great shorthand.) 

    I want that to mean Shake Their Bones, but I know it probably doesn’t.

  167. 167.

    JWR

    @James E Powell: “Where did you get that idea?”

    From the judge?:

    “I’ll give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned,” Cahill said as arguments concluded Monday and the jury began deliberations.

  168. 168.

    Elizabelle

    So much bloviating on the cable channels.

    Which are the best local MN channels?  Anyone?

  169. 169.

    debbie

    @Amir Khalid:

    I’ve read that Floyd more or less managed all the bouncers and told one of his co-workers (I think it was the guy who said he wouldn’t testify because he didn’t want to incriminate himself) he really didn’t want to have to deal with Chauvin.

    I see the murder more as an act opportunity. “Well, well, well. Look who we have here.”

  176. 176.

    Kathleen

    @Elizabelle: I’ll make sure to read that. Did you read the story about the young girl on that iconic Kent State photo? I was in tears . Beautifully written. Brought back memories of how horrible those years were.

  177. 177.

    Larch

    @Elizabelle: I’m watching WCCO — the CBS affiliate. I rarely watch TV news so I don’t know anymore how they stack up against the others, but they’re not terrible.

  178. 178.

    Another Scott

    216-210 — Democrats block House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy's attempt to censure Maxine Waters for her comments about the Chauvin case

    — Steven Dennis (@StevenTDennis) April 20, 2021

    Good, good.

    People have a right to speak, and our side cannot be shut down by the Teabaggers and GQP types that just want to sweep everything under the rug.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  179. 179.

    Elizabelle

    Second degree murder is the most serious charge, per these local TV experts.

     

    IT”S HERE.

  180. 180.

    geg6

    @JWR: ​
     
    I watched that live and that comment went further and he said he really didn’t think it would although he didn’t approve of what the Black lady said. Don’t be like the lying liars and leave out context.

  184. 184.

    mali muso

    Count me in as a big no thanks to heightening the contradictions.  Worried every day that my husband might not come home.  The constant mental stress I see him go through just living in his own skin in this racist country.  The contradictions are plenty heightened.

  188. 188.

    Low Key Swagger

    I’m pretty much of the believe that his fate was sealed when other cops testified that he used excessive force.

  197. 197.

    Kent

    Count 1:  2nd degree murder – GUILTY

    Count 2:  3rd degree murder – GUILTY

    Count 3:  2nd degree manslaughter – GUILTY

  198. 198.

    Another Scott

    First count – unintentional 2nd degree murder – GUILTY

    — southpaw (@nycsouthpaw) April 20, 2021

    (As already noted a dozen times above.)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  199. 199.

    WaterGirl

    verdict:
    Count 1
    The second-degree unintentional murder charge alleges Chauvin caused Floyd’s death “without intent” while committing or attempting to commit felony third-degree assault. In turn, third-degree assault is defined as the intentional infliction of substantial bodily harm.
    GUILTY

    count 2
    The third-degree murder charge alleges Chauvin caused Floyd’s death by “perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life.”

    GUILTY

    Count 3
    The second-degree manslaughter charge alleges Chauvin caused Floyd’s death by “culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm.”
    GUILTY

  201. 201.

    The Thin Black Duke

    Listen, it’s–difficult right for me now, because what makes this murder worse than the countless other be black people slaughtered by police in the past was that punk with a badge killed George Floyd in public while people were filming it and he didn’t stop. He didn’t stop because he expected to get away with it. That monster wanted to send a message and an acquittal would be affirmation of what he believed. So I can understand why brothers and sisters are fucking pissed off right now, so the last thing we need are white people telling us how to respond to this bullshit.

  209. 209.

    Kathleen

    @Ruckus: Cincinnati police banned choke holds and lots of other measures other forces use. Our Chief of Police kindly educated protesters that demands they were making were for practices no longer used. He said he enjoyed talking with them and hoped to continue the dialog.

  210. 210.

    RandomMonster

    I can’t watch because of a meeting, so I’m really glad I can check results here. Guilty hooray!

  216. 216.

    Elizabelle

    At least Chauvin is wearing a mask for this appearance.

    What he wears … the man is going to have a lot less choice in the matter from here on out.

    YEA JURY!!  And it was “heavy duty jury service.”  I like that the judge will answer questions after the fact, in a session with the jury.

  220. 220.

    BruceFromOhio

    This still has to hit the appeals, but guilty on all three counts makes it very likely this soulless criminal spends a lot of time in prison.​
     

    ETA: Bond revoked, remanded to custody. May Gaia have mercy on your wretched soul, should you happen to find one laying around somewhere.

  224. 224.

    cain

    C-SPAN had the camera on Chauvin the entire time. Asshole.

    ETA: He did not look surprised.

  232. 232.

    Larch

    I think I heard the judge say 8 weeks to sentencing – some other steps in between. Also bail revoked & Chauvin goes to jail immediately.

  238. 238.

    Elizabelle

    I am not surprised, but I am so happy.

    I did not expect guilty on ALL THREE COUNTS.  Wow.

  240. 240.

    Wag

    I am so glad to see that door close behind him after DC walked through with his hands in cuffs.  Thank go it is done

  241. 241.

    Larch

    Local alternative radio (The Current) is playing Sam Cook’s “A Change is Going to Come” – yes!

  244. 244.

    Miki

    Blakely factors – enhanced sentencing. PSI- Pre-sentencing Investigation. Bail being revoked upon conviction is how it usually works.

  250. 250.

    Elizabelle

    Now I feel such a settling in loss over George Floyd.  Justice for his survivors, but he can never come back.

  253. 253.

    Another Scott

    @The Thin Black Duke: Thanks for trying to keep us on track on these threads.

    Repost: NBCNews:

    Floyd’s death sparked nationwide protests and renewed calls for an end to police brutality and racial inequities.

    “As part of the deal, officials now say, [Chauvin] was willing to go to prison for more than 10 years,” the Times reported. “Local officials, scrambling to end the community’s swelling anger, scheduled a news conference to announce the deal.”

    But the deal fell apart, the Times reported, citing three law enforcement officials, because Barr worried that it was too early in the investigation and would be perceived as too lenient. Barr also wanted to allow state officials taking over the case time to make their own decisions, the Times reported.

    I will be looking for a sentence of much, much more than 10 years.

    And I hope that Garland’s DOJ takes a very hard look at the MPD while also looking at departments nation-wide. These murders are not isolated incidents and must be addressed in a systemic way. Consent decrees are needed, and they need to be enforced.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  255. 255.

    Phylllis

    I served on a federal jury and what I learned is so much hinges on the judge’s instructions to the jury. Whenever we would start drifting, our foreman, who was a great guy, would bring us back to those instructions. I’d love to see what they were for this jury.

  257. 257.

    cain

    Now I want to know what the sentencing is going to be like. Also, I want to know what those other officers are going to face.

  258. 258.

    CaseyL

    I heard President Biden was going to say something after the verdict.  Anyone know when or where to see that?

  259. 259.

    Elizabelle

    NY Times subheadline informs that Chauvin could get 40 years.

    Please, please, please.

  261. 261.

    guachi

    There were two possible reactions to the verdict: relief or anger. We got the relief verdict.

  265. 265.

    Miss Bianca

    @rp:

    And, yes, I know that those idiots will find something to scream about, but there was absolutely no reason to give them this soundbite right as the jury is deliberating.

    Shorter you: “WHY THE HELL WON’T THIS UPPITY BLACK LADY JUST SHUT UP?!”

    @The Thin Black Duke: Or, y’know…what you said.

  268. 268.

    Miki

    Sobbing. These were the right verdicts. But they were built on the bodies and lives of too many black men and women and children. My heart breaks that this is what it takes to just chip away at rotten, murderous policing.

    Rest in power, Mr. Floyd.

  269. 269.

    Elizabelle

    KSTP is interviewing a newly 11-year old girl, Madonna, who is pleased (elated) with the verdict.  Now her parents are weighing in, too.

  273. 273.

    Alison Rose

    @O. Felix Culpa: Glad to hear that. I haven’t seen any of it, don’t have TV and not sure I could handle it. But I’m very glad they went hard and the jury clearly wasn’t buying the defense’s bullshit for a moment.

  274. 274.

    Elizabelle

    @SFBayAreaGal:   I know.  It’s like, now the Floyd family really has to lay George to rest.  He and his case were alive for all of this, and now there is a verdict, and his absence is stunning now.

  277. 277.

    Another Scott

    @trollhattan: Yes and yes.

    CNBC:

    Attorney General Merrick Garland on Friday [4/16/2021] rescinded Trump-era limits on consent decrees, which the Department of Justice has used to enforce reforms in police departments accused of widespread misconduct.

    Garland, fulfilling a campaign promise from President Joe Biden, said in a memorandum that the Justice Department “will return to the traditional process” that was in place before former President Donald Trump’s administration imposed sharp restrictions on the civil rights tool.

    “Together, we will continue the Department’s legacy of promoting the rule of law, protecting the public, and working collaboratively with state and local governmental entities to meet those ends,” Garland said in the memo, which was sent to U.S. attorneys and other DOJ leaders.

    […]

    They’re going to be busy…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  280. 280.

    Ksmiami

    @The Thin Black Duke: Hi – um I think we need better history taught in this country so more Americans become aware of what Black and Native Americans have endured for centuries with the antiAsian and Latino violence thrown in as well. And top to bottom police reform.

    I benefited from the more in-depth education I received at MHC and it made me more empathetic and simultaneously more angry about injustice.

    @mali muso: heighten the contradiction always seems to come from Bernie bro types who don’t have to worry about the resulting violence. What’s needed is justice departmental national review and reform.

  281. 281.

    trollhattan

    @Another Scott:

    Busy is the word.

    One thing I’ll give the administration, they don’t shy away from things that need doing, even if it’s at the same time.

  282. 282.

    Dan B

    Quiet here in our 85% minority neighborhood.  They’re mostly at work.  My partner is alternating between weepy and angry at Chauvin.  He wants some not nice things about his wishes for Chauvin.

    I want dramatic police reconstruction.  Reform is weak tea if it can be dialed back a bit and rendered toothless.

    Emotions bubbling up as the pressure of the possible fades away and the possibility of further progress increases.

  283. 283.

    FelonyGovt

    So very, very relieved. Doesn’t even begin to make it right, but I was really worried about a hung jury.

  284. 284.

    WaterGirl

    I can’t get the image of George Floyd out of my head, looking at all the people watching him being slowly murdered, surely wondering why no one is stopping this from happening.   sobbing.

  285. 285.

    quakerinabasement

    @Raven: 

    You haven’t met my wife. She continues “planning” long, long after events have passed us by.

  287. 287.

    dww44

    @Raven:  Johnson’s been over the top a lot lately. And with all respect to Water Girl I thought that Steele’s comments were more measured and thoughtful.

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