Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

He wakes up lying, and he lies all day.

This fight is for everything.

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

Trump’s legal defense is going to be a dumpster fire inside a clown car on a derailing train.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Hi god, it’s us. Thanks a heap, you’re having a great week and it’s only Thursday!

Thanks for reminding me that Van Jones needs to be slapped.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

T R E 4 5 O N

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

Everybody saw this coming.

You are here: Home / Politics / GOP Death Cult / Violent Insurrection Open Thread: #MoscowMitch McConnell Will Play the Fall Guy

Violent Insurrection Open Thread: #MoscowMitch McConnell Will Play the Fall Guy

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Just asking questions, here…


(Of course, Mitch McConnell enjoys making people suffer, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t compromised.)


On the other hand, Occam’s Razor:

… Published reports suggest – and it is no surprise that this is the case – that the DOJ investigations are not looking deeply into the causes of the January 6th insurrection, causes which are inherently political and tied to numerous public officials and electoral politics. They’re going to look at the specific people who broke into the Capitol. They’re going to look at organized groups that may have planned the acts of violence in advance. This may net various Proud Boys or Three Percenter groups. It may even net a particularly zany member of Congress. Those people deserve to face legal accountability for their actions.

But there will be much less scrutiny into why the whole thing happened, which directly implicates President Trump and numerous of his political supporters on Capitol Hill. It may not implicate them in crimes. But it implicates their responsibility. We don’t know just where the DOJ is going to draw the line on this. But even to the extent it takes a broad view of its brief everything it finds will remain secret unless and until the information becomes necessary to reveal in a criminal prosecution.

Which is to say most of it will never see the light of day. Ever.

Needless to say this leaves people like Mitch McConnell with a huge interest in saying that the DOJ has this covered and any other inquiry would be redundant and even compromise the DOJs investigations.

It’s really convenient…

Reader Interactions

180Comments

  1. 1.

    H.E.Wolf

    As beloved commenter Amir Khalid is wont to say: “Die Mühlen Gottes mahlen langsam, aber sie mahlen extrem fein“.

    Let’s not abandon all hope quite yet….

  2. 2.

    Gin & Tonic

    @H.E.Wolf: Abandoning all hope is apparently the B-J motto these days. No matter how positive a development, the thread will quickly become gloom and despair, even if it isn’t set up that way – as this one is.

  3. 3.

    Anne Laurie

    @Gin & Tonic: Mid-level crime lords are gonna protect their fellow crime lords’ rackets.  This is not ‘gloom & doom’, this is me pointing out what a low-rent human speed bump Mitch McConnell actually is.  We can’t fight what we don’t understand!

  5. 5.

    Kent

    This is a positive move.

    A bipartisan commission with equal representation by both Dems and the GOP would have been a meaningless shit show with the GOP able to veto, grandstand, and obfuscate every step of the way.  Especially if a majority vote of the commission was required to do anything.

    Now the House and Senate are basically freed to hold select committee investigations that they will control

    They would have been better off letting it move forward I think.

  6. 6.

    Ohio Mom

    I believe the truth will out, though it may happen far enough into the future that it won’t matter.

    In the meantime, I am going to trust the Democractic leadership to do what can be done, even if it is “only” committee hearings and not a big fancy official-sounding commission.

  7. 7.

    Martin

    Who knew when Ben Franklin said “A republic, if you can keep it.” he was talking about the filibuster.

    I like the idea along the lines of the DOJ appointing Obama and Bush as co-Special Counsels for such a commission if this fails.

  9. 9.

    Devore

    Maybe someone needs to ask Mitch if he’s willing to be polygraphed about his involvement in Jan 6 or plenty of other things

  10. 10.

    MagdaInBlack

    I’m watching Hal Sparks watch the 2 Skanks  (MTG and Gaetz) Rally in Georgia and yikes ! ?

  11. 11.

    Martin

    Democrats should seize on McConnell declaring himself monarch, asking Republicans to bend their knee to him rather than protect the country. Just drive that image into voters and not let up.

  12. 12.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Doesn’t Nancy Pelosi have the option of a Select Committee in her back pocket? You want it bipartisan? Okay: Katko, Cheney, Kinzigner, Fred Upton and Jaime Herrera-Beutler

  13. 13.

    Martin

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Pretty sure that’s not a requirement, on the assumption that the DOJ would never appoint someone unqualified.

    But these are extraordinary circumstances and public trust needs to lead over individual credentials.

  14. 14.

    Martin

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, she does. Though half the problem is that half the country has decided that any information not approved by Trump or Fox News is invalid. In order for the 1/6 commission to have validity, it needs to be credible to at least some of that population.

    Honestly, this would have been a pretty good job for a retired Scalia.

  17. 17.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Martin: Bush will never do anything to jeopardize his nephew’s apparent desire to avenge his daddy’s failure to avenge his own daddy’s failure and that branch of the Family and….

    Mitt Romney on the other hand,may have burned all his bridges, and I believe he is an attorney….

    The Obama-Romney Commission? I want William Cohen on it to make Susan Collins sweat

    @Martin:

    Though half the problem is that half the country has decided that any information not approved by Trump or Fox News is invalid.

    I’d say more like a quarter of the country, tops. The problem is the half the country who can’t be made to care.

  19. 19.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Martin: Per Wiki:

    In the United States, a special counsel (formerly called special prosecutor or independent counsel) is a lawyer appointed to investigate, and potentially prosecute, a particular case of suspected wrongdoing for which a conflict of interest exists for the usual prosecuting authority.

  20. 20.

    CaseyL

    Only Congress or a Special Counsel can issue subpoenas.  Plus you have to appoint people with the steel to enforce said subpoenas – and a judiciary that will allow them to.

  22. 22.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @A Ghost to Most: are you playing Red Dawn Resister again? Do you paint your face camo and wear twigs glued to your head when you post that stuff?

  24. 24.

    JoyceH

    @Kent: ​
     

    This is a positive move.

    A bipartisan commission with equal representation by both Dems and the GOP would have been a meaningless shit show with the GOP able to veto, grandstand, and obfuscate every step of the way. Especially if a majority vote of the commission was required to do anything.

    Now the House and Senate are basically freed to hold select committee investigations that they will control

    I was coming here to ask if I was the only person that was hoping that the Senate DID nuke the commission? It gives the Republicans too much power to gum up the works. Geez, they didn’t give Al Qaeda equal representation on the 9/11 commission! Go ahead and nuke the commission and then Nancy can run a REAL investigation!

  25. 25.

    Ohio Mom

    I am having a hard time imagining any of them — Bush, Obama, Romney, whoever else — agreeing to a role like that.

    Romney is still in the Senate; Bush is a completely unserious person, everything is a lark to him; Obama already had eight years of being in a spotlight he did not control, and I don’t think he would do anything that might upstage Biden.

    Sorry, there are no white knights to be had.

  26. 26.

    West of the Rockies

    Has there been a dedicated BJ thread on the DOJ opting not to release the full Barr paper?  Is that just Instititionslist caution or something more nefarious at play?

  27. 27.

    JoyceH

    And in Open Thready news, I’m just back from the allergist who tells me I don’t have allergies, I have chronic sinusitis. He’s given me some prescriptions to be administered by neti pot (whee), and if that doesn’t work, he says I could go to an ENT guy for a ‘minimally invasive procedure’ that should fix me right up. ‘Minimally invasive procedure’ sounds ominous!

  28. 28.

    Matt

     

     

    @Martin:

    I like the idea along the lines of the DOJ appointing Obama and Bush as co-Special Counsels for such a commission if this fails.

    Why in the EVERLOVING FUCK would we want a serial liar and flat-out war criminal like Shrub anywhere near this?

    The literal first thing we need to do to get out of this mess is drop the pretense that “good Republicans” exist. They don’t, they HAVEN’T for thirty years, let it go.

  31. 31.

    Kent

    @Matt: The Bush Clan needs to clear away the Trumpers if they ever want the next generation like George P Bush in Texas to rise to power.

    I would not trust Shrub as far as I could throw him.  But the clear interest in the old guard of the GOP and their families (Bush, Cheney, Romney clans, etc.) is to flush away the Trumpers and start over.

    So I suspect Shrub has little interest in carrying water for Trump on such a commission.  And nothing to gain from it.

  32. 32.

    Another Scott

    @West of the Rockies: It’s come up, but no dedicated thread about it.

    I think nuanced things are going on that get washed away on Twitter.

    Here’s a Twitter thread about it.  ;-)

    I am not a lawyer, but after viewing Judge Amy Berman Jackson's unredacted memo, I think it is pretty clear that Merrick Garland is not protecting Bill Barr.

    The parts that I have highlighted here are the parts that were previously redacted; Garland agreed to unredact this.

    /1

    — ClearingTheFog (@clearing_fog) May 25, 2021

    FWIW.

    (via a google search after I couldn’t find a similar thread I saw before.)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  33. 33.

    Mike in NC

    After the sun goes down, Key West is a lot more tolerable. Nice cool breezes off the ocean. Read that there are 43 bars on Duval Street alone, and it looked like every one of them was packed tonight.

  34. 34.

    Kent

    @Ohio Mom: We don’t need outside White Knights.  The House has plenty of talent in house.  Adam Schiff was a revelation during the impeachment hearings as was Val Demings.  They don’t need some outside dignitary to run the show.

    If they really want a special counsel then someone like Preet Bharara would be the kind that you want.

  35. 35.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @NotMax: “Only if I can conduct it from my living room with none of your moving-picture machines or that intertube my nephews keep talking about…”

    I was, more seriously, thinking this would be a graceful and honorable way for Justice Breyer to withdraw from the Court.

    I’m not 100% clear on the mechanics of all this, how the laws have changed, but the brief Wiki articles on the Tower and Warren Commissions suggest they were formed by executive order

    ETA: Souter is a year younger than Breyer.  Beam me up, Scottie.

  36. 36.

    H.E.Wolf

    @Gin & Tonic: ​Abandoning all hope is apparently the B-J motto these days.

    Not mine! I’m a Hubert Humphreyesque joyful warrior. :)​

  37. 37.

    different-church-lady

    “Someday, and that day may never come, I’ll call upon you to do a service for me.”

  38. 38.

    Another Scott

    Speaking (a few threads ago) about electric vehicles – Kia EV6 2022 sounds interesting.

    Built from the ground-up on our revolutionary electric platform, EV6 inspires with a futuristic design, an available Augmented Reality head-up display, the spaciousness of a 5-passenger crossover, and up to 300 miles of targeted range on a single charge. Vehicle shipping anticipated to start January 2022.

    0-60 MPH in 5.2 seconds and up to 300-mile targeted range depending on trim selected.

    Charges up to 210 miles of range within 18 minutes using a compatible 800v DC fast charger.

    10-year battery warranty and available dual motor e-AWD for enhanced performance and capability.

    It looks like a swoopy wagon to me, so I won’t automatically eliminate it from consideration. (But it’s probably bigger than I would ideally want.)

    (via MacRumors – which is playing up the first 1000 buyers get a Free Apple Watch!!11ONE)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  46. 46.

    Dan B

    @Another Scott: My partner the total gearhead and EV fan thinks the new VW EV is the next best thing to the Tesla Y.  There’s amazing tech innovations in the Y that no other manufacturer will equal for five to ten years but the VW does a great job for ten thousand less.  He’s not impressed with the KIA but I don’t recall why and he’s “in church” (watching the news) so I can’t ask right now.

  51. 51.

    dww44

    Ali Velshi just interviewed Gary Peters who says they may be working thru the wee hours on the Jan 6 commission vote and infrastructure bill.   I just love it that the Congress waits until the last minute before a scheduled  break for a long holiday weekend.Happens all the time. No better than the rest of us vis-a-vis procrastinating.

  53. 53.

    Another Scott

    @Dan B: I really don’t like the Model Y.  It looks like a cross between a Beetle and a bus.  ;-)

    I mentioned in an earlier thread that I have a 2004 VW Jetta TDI wagon.  I really want something like that size, but electric.  I don’t want a fake truck/Jeep/LandCruiser or some giant thing.  I know the batteries are going to take up a lot of space though…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  56. 56.

    NotMax

    @NotMax

    Third impression: Available only in gray, white or burn-your-retinas yellow. No thanks.

    Also too, black (gets hot!) upholstery.

  57. 57.

    Martin

    @Matt: Because Bush is credible to Republicans, and clearly rejects Trumpism.

    You’re going to need some degree of credibility to the right, and there’s really not a lot to choose from there. Bush is at least a peer  to Obama, understands and historically has favored inclusive democracy. Remember, he was the outlier in the GOP by wanting to bring latinos into the party. He’s not a villain on this topic. And I get the sense he and Obama get along pretty well.

  58. 58.

    Bill Arnold

    @JoyceH: ​

    Go ahead and nuke the commission and then Nancy can run a REAL investigation!

    This is Mitch McConnell asking for “a personal favor”. Pretty sure he wants to regain control of the Senate in 2022(Jan 23), but he probably realizes he won’t.
    So perhaps he’s slyly arranging for a commission unfettered by Republican obstructionism, that will run through the 2022 election and do political (or even legal) damage to some of his foes in the Republican Party, and to TFG.
    Or not, but it’s amusing to think about.

  59. 59.

    Benw

    @Dan B: our Leaf EV is 8 years old and still going! It’s the family workhorse and even though the battery life is not what it used to be, most of our daily driving doesn’t involve gas at all!

  60. 60.

    Dan B

    @Another Scott: It’s the tech of the Y that’s cutting edge.  I’m not impressed with the styling but Mike thinks it would be a good size for the types of hauling he does in his Toyota Tacoma.

    The VW is big but didn’t seem too large to me.

  61. 61.

    gene108

    There many smart evil shitpiles active in Republican politics, and have been for decades. Despite the Gaetz’s, Goehmert’s, and Greene’s, guys like McConnell are smart in their own twisted way.

    Moscow Mitch wants nothing more than to be Senate Majority Leader again. His sole reason to exist is to be Senate Majority Leader.

    I wonder what the Republican operatives coming up with 2022 strategy have figured out about how shoving 1/6/21 down the memory hole will benefit Republican electoral chances. After 2008, Republicans quickly picked up on the racist backlash brewing against President Obama, and successfully figured out how to focus and harness it.

    I really do wonder how they gamed opposing a 1/6/22 commission benefits them.

    What underlying tension amongst white people have they discerned that can be used to get them to vote in 2022?

  62. 62.

    NotMax

    @Benw

    Gas (particularly the stuff with ethanol) left sitting in a tank for a long enough time does and will go stale and become capable of gumming up the works. Is that a problematic thing with hybrids?

  63. 63.

    dww44

    @Martin: Aside  from ex presidents who else in the public sphere would be suitable to chair or co- chair? Any former senators or governors or respected cabinet secretaries?  What about Dan Coats? John Kasich? I’m trying to think of viable Republicans.

  64. 64.

    Dan B

    @Benw: We’re on our third Leaf lease, a 2021.  Our first got 80 miles on a full charge.  It was sport to see how far we could go in a day but the thought of arriving at an out of commission charger in the wilds of the Eastern Washington desert discouraged us.  We went to the ocean where we could plug into 110 at the cabin.  Up the road at a planned Stepford Wife seaside development there was a Tesla charger.  Having 150 mile range is great but we’re waiting for herd immunity to arrive in the boonies and for Portland to get better for tourists or Vancouver to open up at all.  Because of the sales of EV’s here there are more crowds at the chargers, sigh.

  65. 65.

    Kent

    @Martin: @?BillinGlendaleCA: I was reading the Special Counsel act. I didn’t see any explicit requirement that they be an attorney. That’s just sort of assumed.

    True. But if you are going to put someone in charge of investigating lawbreaking, it’s good if they know the law.

  66. 66.

    Dan B

    @NotMax: My gearhead boyfriend says yes but he’s hearing about our friends’ son’s Volt that hasn’t had any gas burned in a year!

  67. 67.

    Kent

    @Dan B:@Benw: We’re on our third Leaf lease, a 2021.  Our first got 80 miles on a full charge.  It was sport to see how far we could go in a day but the thought of arriving at an out of commission charger in the wilds of the Eastern Washington desert discouraged us.  We went to the ocean where we could plug into 110 at the cabin.  Up the road at a planned Stepford Wife seaside development there was a Tesla charger.  Having 150 mile range is great but we’re waiting for herd immunity to arrive in the boonies and for Portland to get better for tourists or Vancouver to open up at all.  Because of the sales of EV’s here there are more crowds at the chargers, sigh.

    I’m looking a buying a used Leaf as our third car for the HS kid to use when she gets her license.  We live in Camas WA (Portland metro).  I think it would be perfect.  The HS is 5 miles away and her daily errands and stuff aren’t ever going to be more than 30-40 miles at best.  I can put in a charger on the outside wall of the garage where she will park.  So it would probably never get charged a public charging station.  Or very rarely.  My wife has a Highlander and I have  Prius so we have other cars to use for out-of-town trips and if the kiddo needs to do a longer road trip she can take one of the other cars.

  68. 68.

    piratedan

    Just saying that after VW lied about their emissions numbers that I will never consider them as a choice for my transportation

  70. 70.

    gene108

    @Martin:

    like the idea along the lines of the DOJ appointing Obama and Bush as co-Special Counsels for such a commission if this fails.

    Republicans hate both Bush and Obama, though Bush a little less. There are no trustworthy senior Republican elder statesmen left to bring the conspiracy theory soaked Republican base out for a dose of reality.

  72. 72.

    dww44

    • @gene108: you are probably right about McConnell but I think for others it’s a case of always falling in line with leadership, the base, and their fearful fealty to Trump. Also the  fear of their own complicity in the events of that day becoming public.
  74. 74.

    Kent

    @dww44:@Martin: Aside  from ex presidents who else in the public sphere would be suitable to chair or co- chair? Any former senators or governors or respected cabinet secretaries?  What about Dan Coats? John Kasich? I’m trying to think of viable Republicans.

    Robert Gates or Colin Powell.  Although I think Powell is no longer a Republican.

  76. 76.

    Dan B

    @Another Scott: Mike says that the KIA is fabulous.  “TESLA grade technology for $20K less!”  He believes they won’t be out for a while.  And there will be lots of competition in the price range.

    Here’s hoping you can snag one.

  77. 77.

    craigie

    @Dan B:

    I have had two Volts. I never used gas, except that if you don’t use the gas for about a year, the car tells you the gas is stale and you have to burn that tank off before it will let you drive on the battery again. Amazing.

  79. 79.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kent: Robert Gates and William Cohen, two former Secs of Defense and Republicans who worked for D Presidents.

  80. 80.

    craigie

    @JoyceH:

    Geez, they didn’t give Al Qaeda equal representation on the 9/11 commission!

    If only this would fit on a bumper sticker – it’s exactly to the point.

  82. 82.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Martin: Wait…  What Special Counsel Act are you reading?  The Independent Counsel Act expired in 1999 and since then special prosecutors have been appointed by the AG under DOJ regulations (Remember the whole thing about firing Mueller?).  So anyway, could you point me at your source document?

  83. 83.

    Another Scott

    Not one Benghazi hearing took place because the Republicans got 10 Democratic senators to agree to it.

    Republicans just did it themselves.

    In other words, Democrats should follow GOP precedent. https://t.co/2bd8cIwPhY

    — Mrs. Betty Bowers (@BettyBowers) May 27, 2021

    This summer and fall are going to be very interesting on Capitol Hill, I think. Not that we’ll get everything we want, of course, but Chuck and Nancy and a whole lot of other people remember.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  84. 84.

    Steeplejack

    @Another Scott:

    Thanks for that. The related Dirk Schwenk thread was even more interesting to me.

    I have just begun to dig into Judge Jackson’s ruling re: the March 24, 2019, memo on prosecuting Trump for obstruction. It looks very bad for Rod Rosenstein. I have always been ready to change opinions in light of evidence. This is evidence.

    — Dirk Schwenk (Esq) ? (@DirkSchwenk) May 5, 2021

  85. 85.

    Tokyokie

    @JoyceH: It could be a balloon sinusplasty. A small, deflated balloon would be pushed up your nostril into the sinus, then inflated, clearing out the sinus. The balloon is then deflated and removed. My understanding is that the procedure is not painful (uncomfortable but not painful), and although the relief is immediate, it may not be long-lasting.

  86. 86.

    Benw

    @NotMax: sorry, I don’t know the detailed tech answer to that. Our personal experience with 2 Honda Civic hybrids and now a Toyota Highlander hybrid since 2009 or so is that they’re not our everyday driving machines but when we fire them up they work fine.

  87. 87.

    dww44

    @Kent: Yup to both but they’ve both disavowed Trump.  And Gates recently dissed the current version  of theGOP which  actually needs more than dissing.

  89. 89.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Colin Powell has much to atone for. I don’t know if he understands that.

    He was so quiet during the trump years I wondered if his health was failing. I checked and his speaking career was in full swing. I think there may be some connection between those two things.

  90. 90.

    Dan B

    @NotMax: Ethanol attracts water vapor and gas may lose some octane so it gets harder for the engine.  Not sure about rusty gas tanks.

  91. 91.

    Benw

    @Dan B: in 2014 we bought a 2012 after it’s first lease. Electric blue and got 80 miles on a good day. Didn’t need more :)

  95. 95.

    Dan B

    @Kent: Used Leafs are a great deal.

    Ours is our primary transport but as retired guys we are only charging it every five days or less.  It’s for Mike to go 2 miles to his rental house to feed the cat colony and for me to go 2 miles to the grocery store a couple times a week.  Then we get invited to friends 5 miles or ten miles away plus the beach at Labor Day – canceled last year and this.

    I guess we’re not wanderers with two cats that are afraid of all other hoomins…

  97. 97.

    gene108

    @Another Scott:

    How exactly will the problem of people not having their own driveway, ie people in apartments, condos, or people who have to street park, be solved for EV adoption?

    My feeling is car companies can supply more EV vehicles than the current infrastructure can support. The lack of charging infrastructure is holding back widespread adoption.

    I don’t see much of a push for ubiquitous EV charging stations.  What has been done has been sporadic.

    I just can’t give a hoot about EV’s until the infrastructure can be built up. As is, since I live in a condo, and park in a parking lot EV’s are useless for me.

  98. 98.

    Kent

    @Benw:@Kent: honestly, we’ve used the trickle charger plugged into the regular 120V wall outlet and been fine.

    I would have to drill a hole in the garage wall and install some kind of all-weather outlet ouside anyway.  The circuit box is right on the other side.  It would be just as easy to run 240 volt outside as 120 volt.  The only expense would be whatever it costs to buy the higher priced wall-mount charger.  The don’t seem too expensive on Amazon.

  99. 99.

    Dan B

    @Another Scott: BTW batteries don’t take much room.  They’re often under the seats and/or the cabin sits a bit higher- good for visibility, not as good for freeway mileage.

    In five to ten years we may have much more compact batteries as well.

  100. 100.

    Kent

    @gene108:

    How exactly will the problem of people not having their own driveway, ie people in apartments, condos, or people who have to street park, be solved for EV adoption?

    My feeling is car companies can supply more EV vehicles than the current infrastructure can support. The lack of charging infrastructure is holding back widespread adoption.

    I don’t see much of a push for ubiquitous EV charging stations.  What has been done has been sporadic.

    I just can’t give a hoot about EV’s until the infrastructure can be built up. As is, since I live in a condo, and park in a parking lot EV’s are useless for me.

    I expect once we reach critical mass there will be an increasing number of private parking garages in big cities that start installing charging stations so you’ll just pay a premium for a private parking spot with built-in charging.   Same thing for higher end condo complexes and such.  The infrastructure is trivial and not costly if done at scale.

  103. 103.

    Dan B

    @rikyrah: Tulsa was especially horrifying.  The relentless horrors remain.  Our neighbor doesn’t like driving far from this minority majority neighborhood.  He’s always well groomed and well dressed, carpenter well-dressed.  Both of our young black male neighbors are fantastic and laugh easily but they are cautious because they are big men.

  104. 104.

    StringOnAStick

    @JoyceH: Sounds like he’s suggesting balloon sinuplasty.  Minimally invasive but still not very pleasant, though I’ve known people who swear by the results.

  105. 105.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kent: I am sure they are.  EVs don’t really become viable until they are a reasonable alternative for the masses.  Something that is a good second or third vehicle for the well-off or that really requires amenities that only “higher end condos” provide isn’t there yet.

  106. 106.

    Dan B

    @Benw: My partner would die if he was seen driving an electric blue Leaf.  He hated our white Leaf.  He’s very happy with the two tone gray.  Our first was gray and was hit twice – totaled once by a mail truck that ripped the driver’s side from stem to stern while we were watching a movie.  The supervisor saw it so we were lucky.  We were a half hour walk from home so it wasn’t terrible. Nissan demanded it be rebuilt for several thousand dollars more than it was worth.

  108. 108.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Omnes Omnibus: And that includes a way to charge them when you street park

    There’s a lot of things that homeowners and folk in “upscale” condo’s don’t think about that others have to deal with.  I’m lucky to find a parking space close to my apt. which can be a real pain if I’ve got perishables and I don’t find close parking.

  109. 109.

    Dan B

    @Benw: US too.  It charges to 100% overnight on household current.  We’ve got a full circuit available but spent the money on fancy LED’s and a new stove instead.

  110. 110.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kent: Most of the masses live in single family homes with driveways and garages where charging is trivially easy.

    Really?  Isn’t over 80% of the US population in urban areas?

  111. 111.

    Ohio Mom

    Rikyrah and Kent:

    Yes, I could see Preet Bahara or Sally Yates heading up an investigation because both of them have relevant experience. Unlike some of the names I am seeing on this thread, e.g., John Kasich? Colin Powell?!!

    I’m perfectly happy leaving this up to the Congressional Democratic leadership.

  112. 112.

    Benw

    @Kent: yeah my only info is that we generally run our Leaf low most days (less than 8 mi left on the battery) but can charge up to full overnight (we usually plug in around  7 pm) with the regular 120V charger. So a regular 120V outlet can work if you don’t need maximum output

  115. 115.

    gene108

    @Another Scott:

    Not one Benghazi hearing took place because the Republicans got 10 Democratic senators to agree to it.

    A lot of liberal Twitter and the liberal internets want swift retribution against Republicans. They are angry Trump isn’t in jail, or all the bills Biden proposed aren’t passed. It’s 20 years of pent up frustration expecting an immediate outlet.

    I’m really worried that we’ll have a repeat of 2010, where Republican turnout will be much higher relative to Democratic turnout. I hoped after Trump, and how much more engaged people’s involvement with Democratic politics became we’d not see a drop off in enthusiasm. I have my doubts, because of tweets like this.

  116. 116.

    Dan B

    @gene108: There’s discussion of using streetlight poles for chargers especially where they’ve been converted to LED’s.  And it will make a difference when their are incentives for landlords with garages.  New buildings in Seattle all seem to have chargers.  How else do you attract tenants who drive Teslas, Volts, Bolts, etc?

    It’s not that expensive to add a 220/240 charger but most building managers don’t ike extra projects.

  117. 117.

    West of the Rockies

    @Bill Arnold:

    McConnell planning ahead even a couple years seems quite optimistic for a fellow in his fragile condition.  Then again, DiFi is already planning on running again when she’ll be over 90.

  118. 118.

    Another Scott

    @gene108: Agreed that apartments and condos are a problem.  But we have to start somewhere. The more EVs sold, the better and faster the charging technology will be, meaning that people won’t have to sit at a charging station for 4-12 hours overnight (and so home charging won’t be a necessity).

    Good stats here re number of EV's by state, charging points per state and charging points relative to total vehicles and total EV's – California is killing it [ lots of twitter addresses]
    https://t.co/SFkosqHSOJ

    — Senator Scott Surovell (@ssurovell) May 27, 2021

    That tweet points to Zutobi.com for state-by-state statistics in various categories.

    As part of the Dieselgate settlement, VW is funding lots of EV charging stations nationwide. There are others doing so as well, and Biden’s plan includes funding for more (a goal of 500,000 stations by 2030).

    There are presently 40,582 charging station in the US (as of February) according to Statista.com (168,000 gas stations according to fueleconomy.gov).

    Technology transitions can be advantageous for those that follow after the pioneers (“… with the arrows in their backs!”). ;-)

    EVs are coming, as long as we don’t do something stupid…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  119. 119.

    TriassicSands

    @Martin: 

    Honestly, this would have been a pretty good job for a retired Scalia.

    Scalia was never going to retire, except to a coffin.

  120. 120.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Another Scott: EVs are coming,

    No one is arguing that they are not.  But, despite the evangelists here, we are not yet ready for a wholesale conversion.

  123. 123.

    Another Scott

    @Omnes Omnibus: Eh?  There are roughly 290,000,000 registered vehicles in the USA.  Nobody sensible is talking about quickly changing the fleet to EVs.  The production isn’t there.  It’s going to take decades.  Since it takes roughly 10 years for GM to go from a clean sheet of paper to production, companies (and regulators, etc.) have to be thinking at least that far out.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  124. 124.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Omnes Omnibus: Put the infrastructure in and quite a few folk will transition to EV’s.  There is a problem if you’re going out to where chargers don’t exist, like the boonies.  Range and time to charge could be an issue.

  125. 125.

    Steeplejack

    @Another Scott:

    I thought Rosenstein was a milquetoast quisling getting outmaneuvered and pushed around by the big brains. Turns out he was one of the villains.

  127. 127.

    gene108

    @Kent:

    The infrastructure is trivial and not costly if done at scale.

    I don’t see the infrastructure as trivial. EV infrastructure based on home charging will make it infeasible for already built, none high-end apartments/condos to put them in.

    EV infrastructure cannot be built around the national overnight home charging model for widespread adoption.

    What’s needed are standardized charging stations to take the place of gas stations, where you can fast charge for a few minutes to get you where you are going, and have separate lanes to for people who want to charge longer.

    I don’t think the free market will easily provide this sort of thing, without a nudge from government to somehow require charging stations be added to existing gas stations, in a significant way. I doubt we have the political will for it.

  128. 128.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Kent: I live in a duplex, it’s behind a house and about 50 feet from the street that I have to park on.  There’s no way I can charge my car from here.  Quit hand waving the problems, they’re real.

  131. 131.

    Dan B

    @Another Scott: Lots of chargers will help.  So will twelve minute batteries that should begin showing up in five to ten years.  We’ve charged while having an excellent Japanese meal sitting outside overlooking the Cascades and at a great Taco Truck on a busy highway.  30 minute charging is great with a bit of planning.

    We subscribe to a network of different charging companies.  It’s much less than gas.

  133. 133.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @gene108: EV’s are great of the daily commute and driving around town, but If you need to go out of town the range and full charging time becomes an issue.  I drove to Anza Borrego last weekend(about 400 miles r/t), I had to stop for gas at 4am, now I’m not going to want to wait an hour or so for the car to charge, I’d not feel safe.

  134. 134.

    Dan B

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: We have a subscription that gives us access to many different chargers and Fast Chargers only need half an hour so the issue would be sharing.  That’s a tough nut to crack but induction charging can address that if we can pry a few billion from a few billionaires.

  135. 135.

    Kent

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Of course for a percentage of the population the obstacles are real.  But the majority of Americans who are affluent enough to buy new cars already live in homes where they can be charged at home.  Electric cars aren’t going to be convenient for a portion of the population until we build out more infrastructure.  That’s for certain.  But that isn’t a barrier right now for a majority of Americans who can afford to buy a new car.

    Most of America lives in suburban subdivisions.  Even in big metro areas like Los Angeles there are millions who live in single family homes where cars can be easily charged.

    It might not be right for you.  But it isn’t an obstacle for tens of millions.  Especially when we are talking about the kind of people who can buy new Teslas or other EVs.

  139. 139.

    gene108

    @Kent:

    Some percentage of single family homes are in older parts of towns that must do street parking, though I think this number is rather small, but large enough to prove a barrier to enough people that it might sway public opinion.

    ************************

    What will be interesting is as we move into a battery fueled world, the minerals that make batteries, like lithium, will replace oil as the resource that runs the world.

    There’s going to be interesting realignment in global politics as lithium rich countries replace oil rich countries as essential to powering the global economy.

    Oil extraction will continue, since too many things are made from petrochemicals, but it will be reduced

  141. 141.

    Kent

    @Omnes Omnibus: Most do.  Single family homes without driveways and off-street parking are rare.  Especially in neighborhoods frequented by people who can afford new cars.

  143. 143.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kent: And here we get back to my original “Hmmm…”

    ETA: I’ve lived in, a number of places, and visited even more, where people could afford very nice cars but had only street parking available. One isn’t going to run an extension cord across the side walk in Georgetown for example. Nor on Beacon Hill.

  144. 144.

    Kent

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:@Kent: Billing for the electricity is the problem then.

    Not necessarily.  They can just build it into the parking price.  $100/mo.  to park in an ordinary spot.  $175/mo. to park in an EV charger spot.  Or whatever the extra cost needs to be to cover charging. Parking lot owners are smart enough to figure out what they need to charge to cover the cost.  They can just take their average electrical bill and divide by the number of parking spots and add that as a surcharge.  You don’t necessarily need to meter every outlet.

    I completely agree that EV ownership is going to be impractical for a certain percentage of the population.  Car ownership is impractical for some too.  But there are really not that many obstacles to far more widespread adoption than we are at now.  In fact, we can probably accommodate as many new EVs as the manufacturers can build for years to come and then some.  We are at what?  1 or 2% adoption now?  I bet we could hit closer to 50% without a huge amount of new infrastructure just by adoption by people who can charge at home.

  145. 145.

    Kent

    @Omnes Omnibus:@Kent: And here we get back to my original “Hmmm…”

    I don’t know what your “hmmmm” means.  If you can’t afford an electric car then they aren’t going to be practical.  Perhaps an e-bike combined with public transportation and Uber is the better option.  My brother lives in a condo in central Seattle.  He doesn’t own a car. He has an e-bike and uses transit.  An EV would be a pointless hassle for him.  As would a gas powered car.

  146. 146.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Kent: Dude, I park on the street, I couldn’t afford and extra $100 or $175 to park.  Where would that be?  I’ve got groceries in my car that I need to get into the house, but I have to park a 1/2 mile away?  That’s not going to work.

  147. 147.

    NotMax

    Anyone else remember The John Larroquette Show from last century, which included him winning (IIRC) a Ford Think? One episode involved the car suffering an undignified demise involving an escaped elephant.

    Suffice to say it was parked on the street, being charged via an extension cord running from his abode, while covered with a gray car cover with a tubular extension in front for the cord to run through, which at night made it look vaguely pachyderm-like, enough to pique the escapee’s, um, hormonal interest.

  148. 148.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kent: I have been trying to point out that, at this moment, electric cars are only an option for well-off people. So despite everyone’s discussion of how wonderful they are, they, like many wonderful things, are a luxury good. You seem to agree, but not to really care that much.

    ETA:  In any case, I’ll leave you to it.

  149. 149.

    Kent

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: I’m not arguing with you.  For some EVs are not going to be a practical option for some time.  But your circumstances are not representative of a majority of Americans.

  150. 150.

    Kent

    @Omnes Omnibus:@Kent: I have been trying to point out that, at this moment, electric cars are only an option for well-off people. So despite everyone’s discussion of how wonderful they are, they, like many wonderful things, are a luxury good. You seem to agree, but not to really care that much.

    For people who live in dense urban areas, yes, only the well-off can probably conveniently own EVs with the current infrastructure that we have.  But a majority of Americans don’t live in dense urban areas.  They live in the suburbs and exurban areas where driveways and off-street parking is ubiquitous.  Places like Georgetown or Beacon Hill or Brooklyn are not representative of how 90% of Americans live.

    For people who live in dense urban areas, things like car-share and transit are probably better options.  I’m not arguing that every American should or could get an EV.  Honestly the fewer cars the better.  Especially in big urban areas where accommodating car-free living is probably the better solution.

  151. 151.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Kent: You can’t waive away this issues and say it’s not a problem, because the folk who want to maintain the status quo will bring up this issues and call you an out of touch elitist liberal.  It works for me isn’t a good answer.

  153. 153.

    Kent

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:@Kent: You can’t waive away this issues and say it’s not a problem, because the folk who want to maintain the status quo will bring up this issues and call you an out of touch elitist liberal.  It works for me isn’t a good answer.

    I don’t have to argue with anyone.  Tesla and the other EV manufacturers are already selling all the EVs that they can manufacture.  Ford already has an astonishing number of people making down payments on new F150 EVs that aren’t even going to roll off the assembly line until 2022.  https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-reservations-preorders/ Over 44,000 people made deposits in the first 48 hours.

    They are getting cheaper and better every year.  The average gas SUV has a driving range of about 350 miles until empty.  Pickups are worse.  EVs are rapidly closing in on that.   They might not be right for you.  But this country can absorb all the EVs that the manufacturers can produce for years to come.

  156. 156.

    Wapiti

    @rikyrah: Had my annual wellness exam today and I passed my doctor my vaccination details for their records. He shared that he had recently lost a patient, like about a month ago. She had attended a baby shower and 10 people had been infected. So new baby will never see that grandmother… Just amazing/sad that people are taking risks that they could avoid.

  158. 158.

    Another Scott

    @Kent: There are hundreds of towns and medium sized cities all across the eastern half of the country with 100+ year old houses / duplexes / quadplexes where people park on the street.  Even if there are driveways, they’re often not used for parking (for various reasons).  One really can’t write off ~ 30-40% of the people who don’t have 1/4 acre in the suburbs and say it’s not a big deal.

    We’re still early in EVs.  Higher voltage chargers are coming.  800V DC is available now (Tesla, the EV6).  Companies are working on 1200V systems.  Every increase in voltage reduces the charging time, but it takes time to perfect these systems and have them adopted and deployed.  Improvements are still needed to address the charging time for tens of millions of people who can’t draw tens of kW from their homes.

    (Our 1963-era home still has the original circuit breaker box and one of the issues with going to EV is having that upgraded.  It needs to be done anyway, but planning for another 40-60A circuit just for the car has to be thought about from the beginning.)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  159. 159.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    this fucking fraud

    Burgess Everett @burgessev
    Collins said Congress gonna end up with a panel “Probably the Democratic leaders will appoint a select committee. We’ll have a partisan investigation. It won’t have credibility with people like me, but the press will cover it because that’s what’s going on”

    Meanwhile, Ron Johnson has derailed the “Endless Frontiers” bill because, as best as I can follow this, he wants to add in trump’s border wall. And he can do this, of course, because of Joe Manchin’s Senate Brain, and whatever the fuck is going on with Kyrsten Sinema.

  161. 161.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Steven Dennis @StevenTDennis 3h
    Among those guarding the United States Senate tonight ahead of a possible vote on a 1/6 Commission: Eugene Goodman.

  163. 163.

    Martin

    So, a few points on EV transitions:

    1. There’s 1.9 vehicles per household in the US. The low-hanging fruit is to accept that one will need to be able to drive you through the Serengeti on whale oil, but that the 0.9 others could be small city cars with limited range. This might require some planning on who takes which car, but nothing more than that. Just that one step would cut vehicle emissions by 45%.
    2. A small city car can be charged on a much more modest circuit. The Chinese EV I linked to yesterday has either a 9kWh or 13kWh battery. That’s 6-9 hours to charge off of a 110V 15A circuit. By comparison the F-150 would take 13 hours to charge off of the 220V 40A charger I have in my garage. If all you are trying to do is to go to work and get groceries, the added 4,500 lbs of curb weight for the F-150 is what’s causing you all of the added logistical problems. Ford is making a charger that hangs off of two 40A circuits (4 breakers) to address this. I just installed a new panel on a home with quite good service, and I’d have trouble adding such a charger. If you need to tow a boat or haul tools and concrete, then sure, you need an F-150, but probably only one, not two, and you’ll need to deal with the charging hassle. And how many people in SF walk-ups with street parking even need one?
    3. The deployment of electric in mass transit affects the uptake. When we replaced diesel buses with electric at work, ridership nearly doubled. Why? From our surveys, the diesel fumes made them feel sick. Ok, expected. The other was that the lack of a gearbox meant that the electric bus was more like riding on a train than the diesel which was constantly jerking with gear changes. That also helped people not feel sick. And they’re quiet enough to have conversations with people on.
    4. There are studies that have shown that cars are a major contributor to the breakdown of a sense of community, which is resorted through walkable cities and towns. You don’t need to ram a freeway through a black neighborhood to destroy it, you mostly just need to make sure that cars are the only things allowed on streets. Urban planners have been addressing this in a variety of ways – banning cities from urban centers, but also narrowing streets and adding obstacles, either street parking or other peripheral things to force cars to travel no faster than pedestrians. As you take away the convenience and dominance of vehicles, people value different things in the vehicles they buy. We’re not going to be able to make any headway here when a number of states have said that that cars should be so dominant in public spaces that motorists are free to mow down pedestrians that are protesting.
  164. 164.

    Martin

    @Kent: In CA I’m willing to bet that metering will cost more than just giving people the electricity for free.

    CA is building grid solar + battery at $0.025/kWh. With a 110V/15A circuit, that’s 4 cents per hour to charge. Yes, this forces street parking into smaller vehicles for 1.6kW charging to be practical, but that benefits cities anyway. And cities had already budgeted for that power draw if you’re simply utilizing the street lighting infrastructure since the city used to pay for most of that entire draw before the LEDs were installed.

    Toss CAs growing renewable curtailment which sets the cost of power at $0 in the mix, and this starts to look like a basic public service.

  165. 165.

    Calouste

    So, if street parking is such a problem for electric cars, why did Europe, where far fewer homes have their own garage or even driveway, sell four times as many electric cars as the US in 2020?

  167. 167.

    Amir Khalid

    @H.E.Wolf:
    I varied it a bit, but it was something like: Der Müller Gottes mahlt langsam, aber mahlt außerordentlich fein.

  168. 168.

    Dan B

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Oy!

    We had to jump through hoops to figure out an EV.  There are more hurdles so it seems prudent to examine them because the alternatives are:  drastic restrictions on auto production, collapse of agriculture, turning most of California into a land of burned out desert.

    Things will change.  EV’s could help ease the change but only if we insist the changes help everyone.

    I spent years trying to create an effective green movement powered by low income racial minorities.  Your issues are not as serious as the challenges they face.  We white upper middle class people have agency.  Poor people have hope and community bonds.

  169. 169.

    SeatteDem

    If you can’t charge an EV at home because you only have street parking, you will need to charge at parking lots that offer charging stations, I guess. My local library has 5 charging stalls, most shopping malls seem to have a few, and I put in a customer suggestion to Costco to install them there. I can charge at home, but even my church and my work parking garage have a few charging stations. Seattle is swarming with EVs and businesses are looking for inducements to attract customers, so I’m not surprised that charging stations are popping up everywhere.

  173. 173.

    Kirk Spencer

    About 2/3 of household under 40 year olds are renting. They pretty much can’t add a home charger.

    Charging stations will be a necessity. But half an hour per vehicle is still too long. See your local gas station and watch the surge period operations at the current ten minute refuel

    It’s all solvable. But there’s a lot of money and political effort needed. Arguments that those who can afford it at all that’s needed fail the political price.

  174. 174.

    Gvg

    @Another Scott: Actually I think it’s fine for now, to ignore the people that can’t already easily use electronic vehicles. I think a lot more solutions will be invented as electric cars get more common. New inventions will happen. So what if the richer than me are the only ones who can afford this now? That’s the way these changes always start out, including gas cars way back when. Right now, just try to make the next bit of progress. Not being able to see total success now should not stop us from starting the transition.

  175. 175.

    Low Key Swagger

    Back in the the day, not everyone had a barn in which to stable a horse. Not so long ago, my family couldn’t afford a tractor, so they plowed with mules. I still have their rigging. Didn’t mean that because my family couldn’t swing one, they were a bad idea. I find it fascinating that this discussion devolved into a class dispute. Kent is making a case, and it seems more than reasonable. Why all the push-back because it won’t work for everybody right now?

  176. 176.

    Booger

    @gene108: Although it’s a somewhat different problem, as petroleum is consumed and batteries are a more durable (if still finite) good. A new set of demons set loose on the world, and I’m sure there a dystopian SF novel set in a post-Lithium-wars world.

  177. 177.

    Chris Johnson

    @Bill Arnold:

    I think maybe you have it backwards. To me it seems like McConnell is most likely the most powerful Russian agent in government, more than Trump could ever be, because McConnell is smart enough and capable enough to be effective. He is the Mr Inside where Trump was the Mr Outside. In that light, him saying ‘as a personal favor’ is a direct threat and will be interpreted as such BY republicans, who know McConnell’s connections.

    This sounds dark, negative, but I’m seeing another angle, which is this: apparently now he has to talk to people directly and outright say ‘as a PERSONAL FAVOR wink wink nudge nudge’? To me that sounds like he’s in trouble. He has to flex his apparent muscle: he shouldn’t have to do that. Maybe it will alienate somebody who doesn’t like being leaned on, maybe it will convince somebody that McConnell is getting desperate.

    I think he was meant to carry on the Russian control post-Trump. Except there was no post-Trump: he was on his own as far as seizing control for Putin his master, and he hasn’t been good enough at it. It’s a hidden power struggle, one that he lost. He didn’t have anybody to take over and carry the banner for him. The Russians seem to not care that much about micromanaging their traitors: they don’t need McConnell when they have QAnon, Greene, Goetz and such, when they’re happier trying to seed an insurrection. They didn’t expect to have Trump in the White House. They don’t really WANT a smart competent agent and would be as happy to kill McConnell as they’d be to kill Senators that resist McConnell’s wishes, so McConnell is really not in a strong position here: he has to constantly show he deserves Russia’s backing.

    So now he has to go ‘personal favor’ and try to directly threaten people to keep them in line, because it’s his last chance, I guess? He has to pull the mask off a bit, lest it get ripped off entirely by his enemies?

  178. 178.

    Booger

    @Kent: This will become fraught, as one of the issues with the transition from ICE to EVs is the thin profit margins of gas stations.

    Gasoline is a low-margin product that comes with a whole bunch of safety and regulatory hurdles, and most stations make their money off chips and sodas. Pretty soon they’ll stop pumping gas altogether and then what happens to those stuck with an ICE lifestyle? Things will get nasty, particularly if station choose to increase their margins to cover lower volumes.

  179. 179.

    Barry

    @Martin: ​
     “In order for the 1/6 commission to have validity, it needs to be credible to at least some of that population”

    It will never have credibility with those people.

  180. 180.

    dave319

    Yeah, that’s the top number. It’s more likely a third, but the scale-tip is in that group.
    I figure 20% batshit cray plus partisan kneejerks gets
    to 35%, +/-; 35% +/- actual engaged citizens. and all the rest, the Great Undecided or whatever, meh. Never understood that level of DGAF. Even less so, if you and your demographic are actually the ones being ground up in the sausage maker.

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