I figure that if I post, Cole will bigfoot me with his West by God Virginia take. Or I hope he will. I feel helpless sitting here in a blue as blue state.
He actually, really, yes, says he will vote against HR-1/S-1. His reasoning seems to be that bipartisanship is so important that if Republicans won’t vote with Democrats, he will have to vote with the Republicans.
There is a massive Twitter silence from Democratic politicos, who I hope are putting their heads together on how to deal with this.
Meanwhile, we need to start thinking about demonstrations and other ways to show our desire for fair and open elections.
Open thread!
tybee
if he does that shit he needs to be removed from all senate committees and relegated to sitting in a corner for the remainder of his term.
Cacti
In the end, it won’t be the fascists that deal the death blow to our Republic.
It will be the feckless “moderates” like Manchin, who thought a middle way could be found with them.
craigie
Speaking as a frog, it sure is getting hot in here.
patrick II
My fear is that if you come at him too hard he will switch to the Republican party. It might not be too bad for him in 2024 as the hero of the Republic who saved us from having those people vote.
Jeffro
Thrice-Weekly press conferences that outline GQP voter suppression efforts across the country and the Dem Senate whip count for HR 1, plz, Uncle Joe
MisterForkbeard
Jesus H Christ. What a fucking maroon.
I saw that Chris Wallace grilled him on his refusal to end the filibuster, asking if taking it off the table was exactly the wrong way to go about filibuster and bipartisan reform since it removes the ‘stick’.
Manchin’s response is that Republicans really are just great, and that “7 brave republicans” recently came together to vote for something. That didn’t pass because it needed 10. I don’t know what the fuck is going through this guy’s brain any longer.
JMG
Manchin did say he supports the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. So he should be assigned the task of rounding up 10 Republican votes for it — with a deadline. When he fails, then confront him with the idiocy of his bipartisanship fetish. He likes being the center of attention — give it to him in a way that will make him look the fool.
patrick II
Rueters:
We’ve heard that lately. Peas in a pod. Both thieves who might go to jail when they leave office.
Uncle Jeffy
@JMG: “…look the fool”? Just give the bastard a mirror.
Kattails
Switch to the Republican Party? Seems he’s already there in spirit if he truly can’t grasp the entirety of the results of this. And if his own voters can’t give him such resounding hell that he needs an ER burn unit to fix his hide, then fuck ‘em all.
Cameron
@Jeffro: And make sure that Manchin is asked his opinion after every single one….
Leto
Waiting for our blog betters to come along and explain how this is 11D dimensional chess, and how Joe really, really is on our side.
@JMG: why? So it can fail like the Sandyhook legislation that he led? He’s already had months to round up R support for the JLVRA. He’s already the fool. We need to look into other Senate seats we can pick up (like the one here in PA from Toomy) to bypass Manchin.
Edit: and I say that knowing full well how much harder voting will be come the mid terms. Whatever carrot they’re using isn’t working.
Tom Levenson
If Manchin is simply killing voting rights legislation, he’s handing the country over to international oligarchs who will ruin our lives through their hired Republican goons. If he’s providing cover for the Joe Lewis Act, not so much. I live in hope, not expectation.
ETA: Just noticed Leto’s comment immediately above. In my race to the bottom I reject any imputation of bettertude, but does this thought count for the rest of it?
JMG
In olden days, a Senator like Manchin would voice his objections to the bill’s merits to leadership in private so that the bill could be tweaked to address his concerns. Of course, the fact Manchin was a co-sponsor for the same legislation in the last Congress may have led Schumer to think there were no such objections.
leeleeFL
@patrick II: Funny, ain’t it? Democracy is not their ally, so they will have to destroy it to save it? I hate these assholes so much, it makes my head hurt!
rikyrah
@MisterForkbeard:
Where is his phucking 10?!?
Wag
How long until he defects completely and joins the GOP?
germy
@patrick II:
Maybe Bibi can get his followers to shoot his political opponents. Didn’t that happen once before?
patrick II
Mitch McConnell, May 6, 2021
There is no bipartisanship to be saved Joe. It’s like trying to save the Dodo bird, an odd and flightless bird that ended when real predators were introduced into its environment. It’s extinct.
syphonblue
buT hE VoTEs wITH uS WheN iT COunTs
Fuck Joe Manchin. All Democratic Party funding should be pulled from any of his campaign coffers and he should be stripped off any committees.
JoyceH
Is it foolish to ask if there might be a couple Republicans we can pull over to our side, say a Romney and Murkowsky, and not have to fool with Manchin and Sinema anymore?
gene108
After reading what he wrote, I want to punch Manchin in the throat. The both sider-ism is absurd.
The guy’s not senile he recognizes (Republican) states are restricting voting rights, but carries the “Stop the Steal” bullshit that elections are not secure.
I think he likes being in the minority, and not having the weight of leadership on him.
I hope he doesn’t vote to convict President Biden, to enhance his bipartisan bona fides when the Republican controlled House, in 2023, votes to impeach President Biden over Hunter’s laptop and Hunter’s time on the board of Burisma.
Republicans never forgive political slights, real or imagined, and will seek revenge.
TaMara (HFG)
JFC what an asshole.
Tell me how he’s actually a DEM? Because sure seems like he’s acting like a Rethug, putting his political aspirations ahead of the good of the country.
Fuck him.
Other MJS
@Tom Levenson:
The one thing I can’t believe is that he merely has a naive faith in bipartisanship.
Another Scott
nycsouthpaw made the point that he didn’t cite anything in the bill, just that the GQP doesn’t support it.
I don’t know what is going in the background, maybe there aren’t even 48 votes for it.
It looks like it left the Committee on Rules and Administration on May 11, via a tie, IIRC. Apparently Schumer’s been waiting until he has 50 before acting on it.
Maybe something else will be cobbled together that can get S&M support. Maybe they’ll wait on it until January 2023 when new Senators are in place. Maybe S&M will get their pound of flesh. Maybe someone on the GQP side will caucus with Team D. Maybe something else will happen.
We knew this wasn’t going to be easy and there were going to be setbacks. There always are in politics. Always. We can only do what we can do. Getting discouraged won’t help.
Forward!!
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
I’m glad people are focusing on the problem senators instead of Green Lanterning the president like they did with Obama.
FWIW, there were never 50 votes for HR1/S1 in its current form. I wonder if this is a reaction to Schumer saying he was shelving the John Lewis Act to focus on HR1.
germy
dr. bloor
There’s nothing much to deal with if the intended target has the power to hand the gavel back to McConnell. Move on, do what you can for as long as you can.
Mike in NC
@patrick II: Maybe Bibi can hire Rudy to be his personal attorney. He only asks $20,000 a day!
prostratedragon
@Wag: As a Democrat he’s such an energy sink.
Subsole
@patrick II:
Considering he just flat out said that he and Senator Party Wig are handing the Senate to Mitch McConnell, I am actually okay with this selfish hillbilly Dixiecrat prick going over.
Fuck it. Make it official.
The task now is to get 2 more senators and keep the house in 22.
Don’t have to be from AZ or WV. Two dems anywhere, plus the 48 others we need for majority.
That’s all.
Do that and nobody has to ever give a fuck about Senator “3/5s is Enough” ever again.
Joe Falco
Fuck Manchin. The sooner Democrats are able to add more seats, the better. Both him and Sinema need to be made as irrelevant as possible. I know Sinema wouldn’t have voted for it or bother to show up, but Manchin especially can go to hell for being the loudmouth asshole that he is.
Cameron
@Other MJS: Actually we probably couldn’t get a Joe Lewis Act passed – the modern Republicans would never forgive him for beating Max Schmeling.
MattF
The commentary I’ve seen says that there are numerous D Senators who are happy to see Manchin take the heat on this. They get off the hook, they won’t be painting a big bulls-eye on their sorry asses… what’s not to like?
gene108
@TaMara (HFG):
Republicans do not put their political aspirations ahead of their Party’s agenda. They fall in line, and stick to the script their billionaire donors wrote for them.
The only exception is McCain voting against the AHCA.
Can you picture a Republican Senator publicly killing something they really want to pass like this?
I can’t.
debbie
Listened to an interview last night on NPR with a WV reporter (Joe Severino of the Charleston Gazette-Mail). Turns out he was right.
You can either read or listen. Severino sums up with this:
Butter Emails
@Subsole:
I’d get all the appointments and court seats filled that we can first, then toss his ass to the curb.
Humdog
Did I have it wrong that he is retiring in 2024? He does not need to fear a voter pushback then. The “wipeout” or whatever he was forecasting for himself if he voted to kill the filibuster must be coming from some place other than voters.
prostratedragon
@MattF: The people who keep saying this need to out somebody, or it just sounds like spin to cover Manchin and Sinema. Somewhere someone muttered that they thought it might be Coons, but then he would be a usual suspect in this roundup.
Arclite
Well that’s depressing.
Subsole
@JMG: I doubt that will budge him. I doubt anything will budge him.
The man just showed us all exactly who he is. A dixiecrat piece of shit who is fine with Red State Democrats having our votes shitcanned.
Believe him. I sure am.
Take your anger and spend it on shoring up your party and working to support voting rights orgs.
Our task now is to expand our majority to a point where we don’t rely on those two anymore, ever again, for anything. Because they have shown they cannot be relied upon.
debbie
@MattF:
I’d want more specifics on who those happy and relieved Dems are before I go and put any credence in that commentary.
JoyceH
@MattF:
I must be slow, because I just figured out the problem that some unnamed D Senators have with HR-1/S-1. It’s the ban on dark money.
So – pass John Lewis. Make the dark money ban a stand-alone piece of legislation. Make both Republicans and Democrats vote on it and go on record as for or against dark money. Look, the PUBLIC doesn’t like dark money. So much so that those stupid anti-Biden ads go on and on about ‘Biden and his darrrrk money.’
Dark money is MUCH more a Republican advantage than a Democratic advantage, though Democrats get it too. But lets make it an issue. Make it a problem to vote against a ban on dark money.
gene108
@Joe Falco:
I doubt that happens.
Why work our asses off to give Democrats control of Congress, if they just side with Republicans?
//Normies who got politically active for the first time in response to Trump
Why even bother voting?
//Sporadic Democratic voters, who turned out in 2018 and 2020 because they were promised bigger things than a $1,400 check.
Kent
Yes, it is foolish. Neither Romney nor Murkowski would survive reelection in their home states as Democrats
The only thing to be done is win more Dem Senate Seats in 2022 so that we aren’t reliant on Manchin and Sinema to reach 51. Pennsylvania’s open seat seems within reach as does Richard Burr’s open seat in NC and Ron Johnson’s seat in WI. But that also means holding onto Warnock in GA for whom the GOP will be coming after with all the guns blazing.
Subsole
@MattF: Angus King has made similar noises to Manchin, I believe.
Which is fine.
Once we get around Dipshit of the Mountains and Dipshit of the Desert, Sen. King can stand up and say that shit with his entire chest too.
Eolirin
@Kent: They don’t need to switch parties, they just need to occasionally provide the 49th and 50th vote we need to advance stuff. But we’d really need to get rid of the filibuster with all democratic votes before that sort of thing becomes viable. Any republican defecting on the filibuster will get savaged.
Another Scott
@debbie: This is true, but kinda a truism.
When things are tied, or close, every vote is critical. We saw that with Lieberman with the ACA, and Medicare Part D in 2003, and who knows how many other times.
As long as the GQP refuses to vote for important Democratic (and democratic) priorities, the only choice we have in the legislature is to outvote them. We cannot count on any GQP votes. (We can do other things in other places, but that’s what is necessary in the legislature.)
If it weren’t Manchin, it would be someone else because the Democratic Party is a big tent.
“Our diversity is our strength. Our unity is our power.” – Speaker Pelosi.
Too many in the Senate prefer to be mini-Presidents than to recognized that and to actually do their jobs for the country. We have to have a large enough majority so that they cannot prevent progress, because they’re probably always going to be there…
[eta:] All of that said, the most important thing about having the majority is choosing the leadership. Nothing good would have happened since January without Team D holding the leadership, and for that we should thank S&M, even while we criticize them for their behavior on these issues.
Cheers,
Scott.
Subsole
@Butter Emails: Good point.
MomSense
And it’s not just voting rights. Forget action on climate change or infrastructure. I went to the a$$hole’s Twitter feed and it’s like an endless ode to the coal mines and coal miners. WTF the jobs have to be coal? Those motherfuckers can’t even imagine anything else? I’d rather install PV on roofs than go down into mine shafts FFS.
And let’s not kid ourselves that we can primary him with a more reasonable Democrat. It’s not just WV, Maine’s CD 2 proved that 2016 wasn’t a fluke. They really do like TFG and went for him and Suzy Q in 2020 – even after they were fine with all of us dying from a plague.
I’m feeling very stabby ATM.
Amir Khalid
@Tom Levenson:
Are fisticuffs somehow involved?
I can’t quite make sense of Manchin’s motives. Is it voting rights he opposes, or the end of the filibuster, or both?<
germy
@gene108:
So we can get more Democrats into office.
I mean, you don’t stop after your first Moderna shot. You show up for you second one, and any necessary boosters after that.
MomSense
@Humdog:
He’s retiring in 2024? This is his freedom to do what he wants as a Senator playbook? Total fucking gridlock? I hate him even more.
Kent
Yes, but Romney and Murkowski aren’t going to vote to eliminate the filibuster so your point is moot. They might support Biden’s SCOTUS nominees but that is about it. They aren’t going to leap ahead of Sinema and Manchin to eliminate the filibuster so being the 49th or 50th vote on anything is meaningless when you still need 60.
West of the Rockies
He’s putting his job and power and ego over both party and country. What an A-hole.
Another Scott
Maybe his tailor hates him??
Cheers,
Scott.
JoyceH
@Kent:
Then they could do an Angus King and be an Independent who caucuses with the Democrats. I don’t know about Romney, but Murkowski seems to be an independent power source. Look, she was primaried from the right and LOST. She won reelection, not running as an independent, but as a WRITE-IN! Her name wasn’t even on the ballot – people who wanted to vote for her had to go down to the blank line and fill it in with her name. You really had to be motivated to vote for Murkowski. And that experience ought to mean that she has no particular fondness for the Republican Party who left her in the lurch when it mattered.
And I’m no expert in Utah politics, but Romney is a Mormon – in Utah. Trump got 58% of the vote in Utah in 2020, but in 2012, Romney for 72%. So he might be an independent power source as well.
germy
Someone needs to sit down with Manchin and tell him we’ll be investigating his daughter’s price gouging if he doesn’t fall into line.
Now that’s playing politics.
gene108
@Amir Khalid:
I do not think he opposes voting rights.
Manchin is right that to get lasting reform on voting rights, any legislation will need the support of both parties.
His solution that Republicans agree to abandon their advantage gained by amending state voting laws to their benefit is not realistic right now.
He has some high minded idealism, which would be nice if it worked, but does not meet the reality of the moment.
Ohio Mom
When I saw the post title, I thought Manchin had changed parties.
I’ll take this little crumb, that we still hold the Senate in name. Better than having McConnell the majority leader again. If only for aesthetics.
germy
@Ohio Mom:
I thought it was a list of all his personal defects.
Cameron
@Another Scott: I’m afraid Madam Speaker has it exactly backwards. Democrats’ diversity is no strength in and of itself, and the only part of ‘unity’ that’s true is that it shares the same first three letters as ‘unicorn.’
MomSense
@Another Scott:
He doubled up on the depends and they were both full.
prostratedragon
@Subsole:
Not according to this op-ed from March:
Some approximation of S1 would be needed to address the issues he raises, so presumably he’s inclined to favor it.
germy
@Ohio Mom:
I thought it was a list of all his personal defects.
Eolirin
@Kent: I did just say that, yes.
JoyceH
@Another Scott:
Oh, man, the pants! A lot of the posts about the pants just show the upper legs, but try for a full-length shot to get the real weirdness of it – the fabric just POOLS around his feet! It’s like they’re someone else’s pants entirely! (Someone who is as tall as Trump claims to be.)
randy khan
@patrick II:
Trump’s going to be mad that Netanyahu isn’t paying royalties. That’s Trump’s schtick.
Catherine D.
@germy: Oh, yes, please.
schrodingers_cat
And yet Manchin and Sinema vote with the Ds far more than the Squad or their Magic Grandpa does.
Cheryl Rofer
One of my theories about Manchin and Sinema has been that they are drawing it out so that they can be the heroes who save the bill. This op-ed makes that somewhat less likely
ETA: And, to be honest, even if they do some eleventh-hour maneuver to come back to the good guys, they will never be more than assholes in my estimation.
Another Scott
@gene108: I think that’s generally the right take on his views.
But it is misguided.
Roe v Wade was 7:2. It didn’t keep the GQP from going after it for 48+ years. “Bipartisanship” doesn’t create unity.
Leadership sometimes means being in front of public and political opinion, and shaping that opinion – especially among the public. How long did it take for the ACA to get popular??
It seems to me that something else is going on with S&M, something other than being “mavericky” for its own sake, and I think we all know they know that the GQP is in lock-step and won’t change. Maybe they aren’t paying attention to anything other than their own polls or something. I guess we’ll find out what that thing is sooner or later…
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
debbie
@Another Scott:
Was it the weather or does he have a new hairstyle?
prostratedragon
@Another Scott:
Maybe his tailor hates him??
Oh I think we already know the answer to that. Remember that UK state dinner appearance as The Creature? Of course I don’t discount the possibility that he just doesn’t co-operate well enough in the fittings to get a good fit.
germy
gene108
@germy:
I wasn’t referencing this blog’s commentariat. I was thinking if the people, whose doors I knocked on in 2018 to flip our district. They can easily decide to stay home or not mail in their ballot or vote third party in protest. Those sporadic voters showing up flipped my district in 2018.
Democrats, by donning the mantle of good government and thus making things better for people, have boxed themselves in politically. They actually have to deliver improvement to keep their base engaged enough to show up in large numbers, unlike Republicans who can just whine about Mr. Potato Head being rebranded as Potato Head, trans-girls competing in sports, etc.
TFG guy will be speaking at a NC Republican event in Greenville this month. He’s coming out of hibernation, and he drives turnout for them.
randy khan
@Leto:
It’s not 11 dimensional chess, sadly, but there are some realities here. Manchin knows he can’t be punished for this because he can count to 50. And it’s monumentally galling that he’s willing to vote for the John Lewis bill and not this one. But the other thing is that Manchin has been a yes vote on a lot of things the Dems want already, and will be going forward. While I agree that this probably is the most important one (among many important things), if they’re not getting his vote for it no matter what, they’re going to take his vote on the other things and live with it.
And then we can hope that the Dems can pick up seats in the Senate in 2022 (not just hope – work to help make it happen) so that Manchin’s vote isn’t relevant.
JMG
@Leto: The only leverage the Dems have on Manchin is to rub his nose in the stupidity of his bipartisanship bull by using it to humiliate him as often as possible. They have to try and have him self-own to the point even the Beltway notices.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@schrodingers_cat:
I’m sorry, but how do you think killing voting rights legislation helps Democrats and democracy?
boatboy_srq
@tybee: More effective: this sinks any and all Clean Coal* initiatives in the near future. The fastest way to a pol’s survival instinct is via his contributors’ pocketbooks.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@gene108:
His name won’t be on the ballot, though
Bruce K in ATH-GR
Apologies in advance to the horse that Senator Manchin rode in on.
Benw
Whelp, at least Manchin has told us sooner rather than later that if we want to preserve what democracy we have now, we have to turn out in 22 in record-shattering numbers to hold the House and add more D senators, because he’s not going to help.
Did it in 20, we can do it again in 22!
Another Scott
@prostratedragon: Could be!
dick_nixon replies.
rofl.
Cheers,
Scott.
JoyceH
@prostratedragon:
Don’t blame the tailor. I remember those pictures and I stared at them long and hard to figure out what was going on, and realized that there was literally NO WAY a tailor could have made Trump white tie formal wear that was correct and fit properly.
If you recall, the white vest on Trump’s outfit hung down something like three or four inches below the bottom of the jacket, which is short because that’s what it’s supposed to be. Everyone else’s white vest was correctly a smidge shorter than the jacket. But in Trump’s case, if the vest had been the correct length, there would have been this biiiiig ol’ expanse of belly between the bottom of the vest and the top of the pants. So yeah, the vest was too long. But if it had been the correct length, it would have looked so much worse.
Will
@JoyceH: The same Angus King that told Jake Tapper a few hours ago he wouldn’t support For the People Act.
Yinz on here tar and feathering one guy when there were plenty others hiding behind him. This thing never had 50 votes. It never had 48, or even 47. It likely didn’t even have 45.
Does the hysteria ever stop in the comments section? I started reading only the front page years ago and avoiding the comment section because it always has everything turned up to 11.
taumaturgo
The blue dogs are taking the party down, thank heavens this treason is not coming from the much-maligned liberals. Grandpa Clyburn must be hoping mad but keeping all inside, like the rest of them.
Subsole
@Amir Khalid:
Wouldn’t be the first time Senators traded blows…
As far as motive, I cannot envision a motive, however high-minded or well-meaning, that excuses sacrificing voting rights. Particularly those of a group that elected you. Because if Manchin and the whyte folx who elected him think the GOP ain’t coming after them when they’re done with us, he’s dumber than I thought. And my opinion of his smarts ain’t exactly cresting the Himalayas right now.
I also cannot see any path that grants the majority enough leverage to shift him and Sinema. Which pretty much slits our agenda’s throat.
So.
I can spend my time on a pair who have demonstrated their commitment to screwing me over, or I can work on replacing/nullifying them.
Manchin wants a world where Red State Dems don’t count? Great. He can go first, as far as I am concerned.
boatboy_srq
@Another Scott: There are some people for whom style is never possible. Which is part of the reason Lord Dampnut was (s)elected pResident: too many US voters identify as slovenly whether they know it or not.
Subsole
@prostratedragon:
Then I stand corrected. Thanks.
VeniceRiley
Can they be bribed? Like, with a hundred billion or so of “infrastructure?”
If they cannot be bribed, we need to de everything we possibly can to add senators and make them irrelevant.
debbie
@Another Scott:
ian
Hit the repubs hard over the head with this at secretary of state elections and state leg races, but honestly anyone who is paying attention and cares about voting rights isn’t going to vote repub anyway.
taumaturgo
@Benw: Wishful think bordering in madness to believe the current creaky and conservative leadership will deliver. Unfortunately, most likely a disastrous repeat of 2010.
Omnes Omnibus
Okay, we don’t have the votes for S.1. Do we have the votes for the John Lewis Act? If so, let’s pass that. If, as people have said above, it the money that’s the issue, let’s take if off the table for now.
ETA: And, yes, Manchin is still better than any current Republican.
lowtechcyclist
@Another Scott:
Fuck S&M. I can’t take any more of this pain.
Archon
@gene108:
One mans “high minded idealism” is another mans, “unilateral disarmament against barbarians”.
lowtechcyclist
nm – duplicate comment
Ruckus
@JMG:
This is a good concept. With one fatal flaw.
Joe Manchin is that fatal flaw.
We are expecting him to be a 21st century democrat. And he’s not one at all. Or at least he does his best to not look like one. Maybe he’s like BS, he changes his chosen political color, like a chameleon, so that he blends into the background. But in politics, changing one’s color so often, and for all the wrong reasons and at all the wrong times really isn’t for hiding, it’s for power. He’s a senator, which should be a position of power, but he’s from a state without a lot going for it any longer, it’s main financial center, coal, is over. As a state, WV has less power than, as far as I can tell, any other. But one of it’s senators now has power far in excess of that.
The big question is “What does Joe Manchin want?” I haven’t heard that question asked. I’d think the answer is obvious but then in politics it is rarely ever asked, because of the state he represents.
At first glance the answer seems obvious, he wants the country to come together. But unless he’s stupid, that’s obviously not going to happen, the split between sides is not going to be reconciled by Joe Manchin and his desire to be the rain maker because there is no common ground left between the sides.
Another Scott
@debbie: rofl.
:-)
Cheers,
Scott.
karen marie
@patrick II: “Might” is not especially comforting.
taumaturgo
@Another Scott: A nice excuse for what in any other political organization would consider Manchin’s decision by most an action by a contrarian, a turncoat, and even a traitor to the cause. I’m sure heads would explode if the shoe was on a liberal senator taking a similar stance.
JPL
@Ohio Mom: I agree. We might be able to get an infrastructure bill through, and possibly the John Lewis act. For the people is over 800 pages, and I for one have no idea what is in it besides protecting the right to vote.
Edmund Dantes
Schumer needs to transition to just ramming as many judges through as possible now. Don’t leave it to chance that we leave any open ones for McConnel to fill at a later date. Plenty of federal bench seats to be filled.
Omnes Omnibus
These would be good, concrete accomplishments that Dems could run on in 2022. Along with the improved Covid response and a recovering economy.
taumaturgo
@germy: May I ask what would your suggestion be? More stern letters? Defaulting to the parlamenterian? Or more happy talk about bipartisanship? No innovative actions should be expected for those in charge of guarding the status quo.
Cameron
@JPL: A REAL infrastructure bill, not some half-assed deal with Republicans who won’t work in good faith. That plus John Lewis bill would be one hell of an accomplishment given the narrow legislative majorities.
Straying off topic, what’s the deal with the Federal $300/mo unemployment thing? I read earlier today that the Administration won’t fight the Republican governors who will be cutting this benefit off. How can they do that? Doesn’t the check come directly from the Fed, or is this some sort of weird Medicaid deal that states have control over?
Another Scott
Relatedly, a good piece by Stephen Robinson at Wonkette – Why Kyrsten Sinema Probably Thinks You’re a Chump.
Click on over. I’ll even give you a taste, but click on over – lots of links and stuff.
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
@Cameron:
States control.
Subsole
@taumaturgo: You know, you really should just call Clyburn uppity and be done with it. You’ll feel better saying it in public.
Azhrie139
@gene108: Imagine being this in denial that Dixiecrat Joe “Jim Crow” Manchin doesn’t oppose voting rights.
germy
Subsole
@taumaturgo: I vote we go with y’alls original plan and just wait for the white working class to be blinded by the glorious golden socialist sunshine beaming out from betwixt Bernie’s asscheeks.
germy
@taumaturgo:
Someone needs to sit down with Manchin and tell him we’ll be investigating his daughter’s price gouging if he doesn’t fall into line.
CaseyL
To stave off anger and existential despair, I am trying to fit this into a longer-term narrative.
I just read an article about how the Pandemic Year drove a lot of parents to homeschooling, because their kids were crumbling under the remote-learning approach, and how many of those parents are now deciding they’ll keep homeschooling even after schools re-open.
These are not the parents you normally think of, they’re not religious freaks or extreme RWNJs. A lot of them are families of color, wanting to (in one parent’s words) “de-colonialize” the curriculum, especially as it relates to their own histories. And/or the parents have odd work schedules, and homeschooling can work around that, so the family has more “Family Time,” and the parents can be more present for their kids.
I see that happening as I see more and more people opting out of ordinary society altogether. The nomadic folks, who live FT in RVs with their kids. The young people starting homesteads and farms way out in the boonies. I don’t know if a larger percentage of people are doing that now than ever have, or if we just know about them more because they all have YouTube channels.
So it seems to me we’re seeing a wave of atomization and regrouping. The idea of a centralized community, around a town or city; or a centralized life, around a job or a school, is fading out. People want to chose their entire lives, not divvy them up into “worklife,” “homelife,” “social-life.” The pandemic had a lot to do with this, of course, but I also think in some ways the pandemic hastened along what was already happening. Ordinary life has been taken over by predators – the ultrawealthy, the scammers, the business managers out to squeeze every drop from their workers they can with as little payback as they can get away with – and a lot of people are saying, “Nope. Not for me.” And not all of them are white folks with the financial resources to make withdrawal an easy, luxurious option (though well off whites are the majority, to be sure).
How does this tie in to Manchin? I think it ties in to the failure of American politics. Manchin, like Trump, is a symptom.
American politics has steadily become less democratic, no longer really serves any kind of common good – in fact, can’t even define what a common good is, anymore! A straightforward utilitarian premise, “the greatest good for the greatest number,” runs aground when trying to decide which “greatest number” we’re talking about. Greatest number of middle class? Greatest number of historically marginalized communities? Greatest number of working people whose livelihoods are disappearing? They all have differing, often competing, needs.
Plus the coming environmental catastrophe will pull the rug out from under a lot of people, and geographic areas. GCC doesn’t care if we “believe in it” or not. Potable water will get scarce; growing seasons will shrink; entire swaths of the country will bake, flood, or get blown away by storms. The continental US will be like Pangaea, habitable only along margins.
Sorry for babbling, but I think we are indeed seeing a crackup. An epochal shift. America is dissolving into regionalism. Parts of the country will revert to developing nation status. Parts of the country will be anti-democratic hellholes. Parts of the country will do just fine. But we will no longer be able to sustain a conceit of being “one nation.” Because we won’t be. (Maybe we never were….)
Cameron
@Baud: Shit. And I wonder who will get blamed for it….
taumaturgo
@Subsole: You said it, not me. Apparently, a lack of reasoned arguments diverts you to put words in others people’s mouths.
rikyrah
Hadn’t thought about that ?
G Perrin (@GPerrin2) tweeted at 1:28 PM on Sun, Jun 06, 2021:
For the People Act would reduce the influence of big money in politics…. THIS is why he’s voting NO.
Less Than 2% of Manchin’s Campaign Donations Came From W Virginia.. Only 5 W Virginians contributed…
5!
(https://twitter.com/GPerrin2/status/1401606859186970631?s=03)
randy khan
@gene108:
Democrats, by donning the mantle of good government and thus making things better for people, have boxed themselves in politically. They actually have to deliver improvement to keep their base engaged enough to show up in large numbers, unlike Republicans who can just whine about Mr. Potato Head being rebranded as Potato Head, trans-girls competing in sports, etc.
TFG guy will be speaking at a NC Republican event in Greenville this month. He’s coming out of hibernation, and he drives turnout for them.
First, I think that checks in people’s pockets, the tax credit for children, beating down COVID-19, huge gains in jobs (much higher on an average basis the first 4 months of the Biden Administration than probably any 4-month stretch when TFG was in the White House will go a pretty long way towards convincing people that the Dems have done things. And minority group voters won’t have trouble noticing that he’s been appointing a lot of people of color to important positions, including lifetime judicial appointments. So while obviously voting rights legislation is number one on everyone’s list among the more politically literate set, most everyone else has gotten things that matter to them.
And, while TFG does drive turnout, in 2017 and 2018, he drove turnout on the Dem side much more than on the R side (and, truth be told, he did that in 2020 as well).
Subsole
@taumaturgo:
It’s called pattern recognition.
You should look into it.
zhena gogolia
@Subsole:
You’re doing yeoman’s work but it’s a hopeless task.
Brachiator
@Ruckus:
I think that the question has been asked a number of times. Maybe people don’t like the answer. Sometimes it seems as though the answer itself has changed.
I don’t know. It’s clear to us here, I think that the Republicans are only interested in obstruction. Bipartisanship is talked about only for the benefit of the rubes.
I figure Democrats in Congress know this as well. Even Manchin. So I guess I don’t know why he thinks that he can get what he wants, whatever that is, by enabling Republicans.
prostratedragon
@JoyceH: Granted that the style does not favor the portly, but surely the jacket could have been eased a little and the tails on the vest modified slightly. Suspenders instead of belt could help. Iow he ain’t getting off that easy.
Sure Lurkalot
Mr. Manchin has been a governor, senator and Secretary of State but he says he can’t explain SB1 to his constituents? Sad.
I believe there’s likely nothing to be done about S&M’s opposition to the removal or modification of the filibuster or their professed love of bipartisanship, so I agree with those who say then let’s make it their job to prove said bipartisanship exists by finding the Republican votes needed to pass legislation they purportedly support. FFS, Sinema is a co-sponsor of SB1.
As esteemed commenter Kay might say, make them show their work (instead of being showboats). Talk is cheap.
hilts
Manchin and Sinema are the two most execrable and morally bankrupt Democrats to have served in the US Senate in decades. Fuck both of them.
JPL
@Cameron: Joe Manchin
germy
@rikyrah:
Good point.
I think he’s more corrupt than stupid.
Jackie
@debbie: I love the comment “How can a GUY have a camel toe?!”
Citizen Alan
@Another Scott:
I’m coming around to the idea that the key to understanding Sinema is to recall that she used to be a Green, just like Ralph Nader and Jill Stein. Which means that her number one goal is to undermine the Democratic Party. I wonder if on some level she thinks that preserving the filibuster will hasten the Coming Revolution.
taumaturgo
@Subsole: You have to admit that Bernie supports nuking the fillibuster and he is wholeheartedly behind the Democrats agenda, and he is not a Democrat!! Your darling Manchin is the conservative democrat defending the status quo at all cost.
Citizen Alan
@hilts: For all their faults, I still don’t think Manchin is as bad as Lieberman, Evan Bayh, or Blanche Lincoln, to name a few who’ve hobbled the Democratic Party in the last few decades.
Azhrie139
@Citizen Alan: She seems way to cozy with business interests now for this to be true. More likely she is like most current and former green party folks and is just a grifter.
schrodingers_cat
We have a razor thin majority. Without Manchin and Sinema, Moscow Mitch is the Senate Majority Leader. It is sad to see Balloon Juice follow in the steps of Do Something Twitter and leftie blogistan in always attacking elected Democrats as if they alone have agency.
Brachiator
@taumaturgo:
You belabor the obvious very well. What else you got? Also, I doubt that Manchin is anyone’s darling.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
It’s gotten really tiresome. Is there nothing else to talk about?
Ksmiami
@MisterForkbeard: fuck Joe Manchin just fuck him
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Nope.
We are doomed.
Democrats suck.
Over and over again.
germy
Brachiator
@germy:
OT and BTW. I think you recently said that you might be looking at Chromebooks and other devices. Anything look interesting?
germy
Butter Emails
@schrodingers_cat:
Counterpoint – Don’t get voting legislation through to counter the disenfranchisement the Republicans are doing at the state level, then it’s increasingly likely that the razor thin margins in the Senate and House disappear in 2022.
germy
@Brachiator:
Are you the one who recommended the Acer Chromebook Spin 713?
If so, thank you. I’m on the exact model you recommended right now
Butter Emails
Out of curiosity, would it be possible for the Senate to adopt rules that required Senators to stand in a line for 5 hours before they could cast a vote on legislation?
Spanky
@schrodingers_cat: Seconded. If it weren’t Manchin, it would (and will) be Sinema, King, or whichever Dem feels the need for some press.
The only solution is to buckle down and flip 10 seats in 2022. And that’ll take some real buckling
Eta, or make sure the 3 or 4 sure flips are committed to killing the filibuster.
germy
germy
@Butter Emails:
But don’t give them water.
Butter Emails
@germy:
The can have what they carry in on there person, but staff can’t fetch it. Bubblers will be provided, but if they get out of line to get it, the 5 hour wait starts again.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
Many people, including me, have not spent any time bashing Democrats in general, or Manchin in particular.
I have repeatedly said how much I like most of what Biden is doing. And I am not worrying about the midterms yet.
There is still a good variety of opinions here. It is not by any means just doom and gloom.
Also, people know that we need to keep fighting the Republicans and what is at stake. The question is always what is the best way to proceed.
Ksmiami
@Subsole: I’m there with you. He is missing this moment and damning millions of people to suffering. I could care less about his fever dreams or ideals and so I will work to elect better Dems in other states like Ryan in Ohio etc. Manchin and Sinema are dead to me
Citizen Alan
@Brachiator:
Honestly, I simply don’t know what the Democrats are supposed to do if 49% of the country openly would prefer a fascist, white supremacist dictatorship, and 2 out of 50 Democrats are in complete denial about it.
Brachiator
@germy:
Yep.
Very good to hear that you picked it and like it.
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: I agree with all your points.
Doomers and gloomers outnumber other points of view both in the comments and on the front page.
Despair is not a great motivator. If everything is already lost then why bother is the response that doom and gloom engenders.
schrodingers_cat
@Spanky: Yes we need to flip more senate seats in 2022 so that one or two divas don’t have so much power.
Brachiator
@Citizen Alan:
We do more of the same thing we did to get Biden and a bunch of Democrats elected, despite opposition and insurrection.
How is that so difficult?
germy
@Brachiator:
It was funny.
I went to Best Buy. I put my mask on before I entered the store. When I walked in, there was a guy (no mask) who was there to direct customers. He asked me what I needed. “A chromebook” I replied. “A roomba?” he said. “A chromebook” I said again. So another guy (no mask) walked me over to where the roombas were.
I told him again I wanted a chromebook, so he took me to them. I got the last one they had available.
trnc
The choice right now is a voting rights bill supported only by democrats that would probably fend off repub voter suppression for at least a couple of cycles, or allowing republicans to continue passing voter suppression laws that will be upheld by the Roberts court because he already said it’s congress’ job, not the courts. While that likely outcome sucks, Roberts’ position on this particular point is somewhat more justified than Manchin’s. IOW, many of the elements of the republican state bills will suppress the vote in a distinctly partisan manner, but most of those elements are well within the state’s authority to decide (eg, pushing back Sunday hours for early voting days, restricting absentee ballots) unless congress passes the law.
frosty
@germy: Better commission on the rhoombas maybe?
James E Powell
@Brachiator:
Agreed, except I do worry about the midterms and I hope that the Democratic Party big shots in the critical states are thinking about them every single day.
Republican obstruction has to be at the center of every campaign.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Whose “darling” is he? I know we almost certainly wouldn’t have that seat in WV without him, and thus no majority. But he’s an idiot, and probably a narcissist. Not a doubt in my mind he’s let his press go to his marble head. Who knows where the Dems would be today if the certain sort-of Dems hadn’t done the same, and confused crowd size and twitter owns with actually popular stances and policies
germy
@frosty:
they just couldn’t hear me through the mask. I was practically yelling at them, though.
Steeplejack
@gene108:
He did that last night.
Anonymous
@Bruce K in ATH-GR:
This is star quality commenting. Thanks for this one.
I have a good friend who retired as a LT in his LEO in West Virginia. Long ago he told me that it was universally believed in the WV LEO community that Joe Manchin was owned and operated by the old-fashioned Italian Mob out of Pittsburgh and Wheeling, which relocated widely into northern WV when the Feds started looking into their business in P’burgh. I was dubious at the time, but…
Now I believe him.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Spanky:
Not King. I wish he were a little less an institutionalist, but he’s a radical compared to Manchin. And it’s not about press, or money, or attention. Sinema doesn’t talk to the media, and if the suspected silent allies of Manchin (the names I’ve heard are Hassan, Carper, maybe Coons and Shaheen) wanted press, they’d be out there standing next to him at press conferences.
My take is: Hassan is in a very tough race if Sununu gets in, and rightly or wrongly thinks bipartisanship and moderation is the way to go. I’d bet Kelly’s thinking the same way, but I don’t know.
Starfish
@germy: Maybe they should hire some Roombas to take you to the Chromebooks?
Ohio Mom
Casey L @115
I don’t follow education issues with the fervor I once did — Ohio Son graduated so subjects like teaching to the test and school funding weigh less heavily.
I will say that every time I read someone going on about how the pandemic is leading to the collapse of public schools — parents are home-schooling! parents are sending their kids to private schools! — the writer just happens to be someone who has always been pushing charters and hating on teacher unions.
The ones going on about families leaving public schools for private crack me up. Has there been a wild increase in the number of private schools in the past year or so? There are only so many seats available, this can not be a huge trend.
And homeschooling on your own, in contrast to commandeering remote learning — whole ‘nother thing.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
I am not sure that I agree with this. There are a lot of “rally the troops” front page posts. But even if this were true, the quality of other posts is often wonderful. That’s what I like. As always, your mileage may vary.
Some people may express fear because they need encouragement. This is good. And it is great to know that people have a place where they can come to openly express themselves.
This includes people who want to point out doomsayers.
Nothing good is accomplished by enforcing any narrow orthodoxy, including an orthodoxy of optimism.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): nor lara trump’s.
her decision to backoff the senate run in her birthstate wasn’t to focus on being a mom. no trump is focused on being a parent. the internals among gqp targets in nc must be horrible visavis el jefe & his brood’s toxicity.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@schrodingers_cat: yup.
but he & el santo monteverdeno share an anthracite fetish.
James E Powell
Making Manchin into a national star and repeatedly asking him if he changed his mind about the filibuster hasn’t produced anything positive. Biden & congressional Democrats need to find another strategy.
In the meantime, the rest of us need to take our pitchforks & torches to the Republicans. McConnell is laughing his ass off that all the focus is on Manchin & Sinema instead of him and the Republicans. It’s all “Democrats fail to . . .” instead of “Republicans refuse to . . .”
What’s the theme for the midterms? Going to take a lot pounding to get it through.
germy
@Starfish:
I could ride it like one of those serious cats in a dinosaur costume.
jimmiraybob
What’s so sacrosanct about the number 60? If there are 7 “brave” Republicans why not make the magic number 55? It would allow a slightly “bipartisan” vote with room to spare. Is something like this even a possibility?
Subsole
@zhena gogolia: Depends on the task.
I doubt we’re gonna convince each other of much. I am not a particularly charming or persuasive person. And I don’t think they’re here to talk to anyone but themself, really.
But I can point out bullshit fairly well.
TL;DR: The Wizard is sus. Pointing that out is useful, I think.
I don’t recall ever actually seeing them offer any plan or suggested remedy. For anything. Not once.
All I have ever seen is a bunch of passive-aggressive snark, barely-concealed glee at the prospect of Republicans plunging the country into fascism, and other salt-caked bitterness at the fact America just is not ready to agree with…whatever it is they think they are advocating.
Pretty poor show for a miracle worker, honestly.
Not that I add all that much, either. But I don’t claim to be a magician…
westyny
While we’re at it, fuck Cal Cunningham.
Brachiator
@germy:
That is sooo funny. Could have been worse.
“You’re ready to rumble?”
“Can I do the rhumba?”
Glad it all worked out.
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: I am expressing my opinion. I have no power to impose an orthodoxy. This constant doom mongering makes me want to frequent this site and comment here less and less. YMMV.
lowtechcyclist
@schrodingers_cat:
Sure, Repubs have agency. And when it comes to legislation, every last GQP Senator is using it exactly how every last one of us would expect.
And most days, 48 Dem Senators are using their agency exactly how we would hope they would.
So if we’re trying to pass Dem legislation, whose agency will determine whether it passes? Exactly. That’s why we’re talking about Manchin and Sinema. All 100 Senators have agency, but what’s the point of talking about Cory Booker’s or Marsha Blackburn’s agency? We already know what they’re going to do with it.
Baud
@westyny:
That’s what got us into this mess.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Citizen Alan: considering liebermann, had he been vp on 9/11/01 — & assuming 9/11 still happened the same way — would have invoked the 25th on algore as a pretext to making southwest asia into glass, it would be very difficult for manchin to be worse.
as is, not only is manchin better than droopy dogg, he’s also better than, as you say, b. lincoln, e. bayh, but also heitkamp & alison lundergan grimes.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Citizen Alan: bingo bango let go my stale eggo.
you got this in one.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Our left flank constantly undermining us was not helpful either.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@germy: kind of disingenuous coming from the man who wanted more caucuses in 2020. until that is he lost iowa to buttigieg.
(oh, but wait. bernie’s droogs are positively mikelindellian about that idiots out wandering around result…)
MomSense
I hope Schumer and Pelosi have a nice chat with Manchin and explain that since he has decided to be front and center on his bullshit they have decided to make an example of him and properly investigate his pharmaceutical price gouging daughter complete with Porter’s white board and a parade of down and out West Virginians who had to sell their first born to pay for their prescriptions.
Long term we need to set up Soros colonies in Appalachia and South of the Manson Nixon line with lefty kids and all their artisanal mead, beer, fermented and sour things. Oh and lots of folk rock music.
Mart
@Cacti: “It will be the feckless “moderates” like Manchin, who thought a middle way could be found with them.” That’s Joe Neville Chamberlain Manchin.
Subsole
@taumaturgo: I wasn’t discussing Bernie’s behavior.
I was discussing the fact that the only plan y’all seem to have flopped hard. Twice.
I can understand you wanting to jump subjects, though.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@westyny: john edwards 2.0.
(imagine if the two americas had convinced either hill or barry to make him vp in exchange for delegates.)
Subsole
@Citizen Alan: I do wonder how those worthies would have acted if a Republican lynch mob had stormed the Capitol.
I am also profoundly grateful that I do not have to find out.
Another Scott
@James E Powell: Jaime Harrison at the DNC is working on it. We should support his efforts, and efforts like them.
Thread.
Cheers,
Scott.
(“Who recently started a monthly donation to the DNC.”)
J R in WV
@rikyrah:
OK, this is Gold, great post, thanks so much. I know the one time I met Manchin, I was a state employee, he was the Governor so third layer of management above me. I was told to do a table at a job fair, back when Gov. Joe wanted to have job fairs everywhere in the state.
Now I worked in a custom software development shop. One of the signs on our table used binary arithmetic and asked “If you know why this is true, talk with us about a job!” We never had a taker, mostly the Dept of Corrections was really able to recruit people. Anyway, once things got busy, Gov Joe came in and went all around the hiring hall shaking hands with all his people — even me!
But when he looked at me, I could tell he was not happy to be shaking hands with a bearded guy with a ponytail. Nor was I happy to be shaking hands with a guy who told us we couldn’t offer a new hire the salary that potential new hire had told us was needed in order to hire them.
I have never donated a single cent to Manchin, nor to the WV state Democratic party, because Manchin almost certainly received funds from the state Dem party.
I have voted for him in the past, believing that even a shitty Democrat is better than any Republican. but I’m no longer sure that thought is now correct. Perhaps I will just need to leave that Senate slot empty going forward….
Fuck that Mother Fucker, and the camel he rode in on!
Subsole
@schrodingers_cat:
Very good point. That’s why I suggested we work on expanding our majorities to render them irrelevant. If that fails, work on taking local offices out of GOP hands.
Meanwhile, maybe throw money at Marc Elias? I get the feeling he gonna be BUSY.
As frustrating as it is, we got options folks.
Another Scott
@jimmiraybob: It used to be 66. It dropped to 60 in LBJ’s time, I think.
Yes, the rule can be changed anytime a majority wants to change it (maybe with some caveats – supposedly some rules can only be changed at the start of the session, but the Senate makes its own rules, so…).
Cheers,
Scott.
Subsole
@Ksmiami: Yep.
Maybe we could get a post about prospects? Suggested actions? Donation and volunteer links for voting rights orgs?
Might as well hit the ground running.
debbie
@schrodingers_cat:
Quite a few people are angling for Rob Portman’s seat . Tim Ryan, of course, but a couple of state politicians, like Emilia Sykes and Kevin Boyce, are also thinking about jumping in. There are a host of GQP loons like Josh Mandel and Jim Renacci, so I am hoping we have a real chance at winning.
It’s surprising how many people are interested in Little Rob’s job.
prostratedragon
@MontyTheClipArtMongoose: Wasn’t it Lara who said on fox something that sounded rather like TFG will not be reinstated as President? I’m sure she did that for an audience of one. A lot of the family, or at least the inlaws, are heading for the storm shelters.
prostratedragon
@Brachiator: “This is not a hotel, sir/ma’am.”
Brachiator
@James E Powell:
McConnell is worried. He’s a one trick pony, and the trick ain’t working no more.
As is often the case, Democrats have the advantage. At one recent White House press briefing, the Faux News Douche asked what, apart from the vaccination thing, had Biden accomplished. The immediate and obvious response was to point out that effective response to the pandemic was vital in setting the stage to restarting the economy.
Republicans think that pandemic denial and forcing people into shitty jobs is all you need.
But in the real world, the vaccine rollout, stimulus payments and the tax law changes put in place for 2020 and 2021 have rescued millions who might otherwise have faced ruin. Biden has done more to pull more lower income families out of poverty than any administration has done in years. Despite the yelps of all Republicans and some progressives, Biden’s modest tax increase proposals will not hurt corporations or the economy, but will help sustain recovery.
Like I said, the Democrats have the advantage. They just need to keep pushing ahead.
Steeplejack
@Jackie:
Reply: “Moose knuckle.” ?
J R in WV
@germy:
Good thing you wore a mask, you might have caught the stupid…
CaseyL
@Ohio Mom: That’s why I brought it up: these aren’t parents trying to get their kids into private schools, charter schools, or any of that mishegoss. It’s a different dynamic – and I honestly don’t know whether the dynamic is rising, because (as I said) previously we didn’t see all these disconnected/nomadic/etc. people on YouTube telling their story.
TBH, in some ways it reminds me of the rootless movements of the 1960s: people abandoning middle class life for something with more meaning. Some of them went full time into alternative models (communes, homesteading), some returned to more ordinary lives. But it began with profound alienation from mainstream society, and that’s what the Pandemic Year has thrown into stark relief.
Kropacetic
I’m sorry, we can’t fight this fire until we get permission from the arsonist to turn on the hose.
Another Scott
Blog favorite // weighs in:
Interesting twist on an old idiom…
Cheers,
Scott.
Kropacetic
@schrodingers_cat: Bye then.
SC: Doom and despair monger who really hates the doom and despair mongering of others.
Baud
Campaign finance is important, but it’s different than protecting the vote. If that’s really what Machin objects to, we can deal with that.
Steeplejack
@germy:
Cool. Did you get the “lesser” or “greater” model?
Laura
I think the way to do this is to take the most significant issues and put them each into a separate piece of legislation: one bill that disallows gerrymandering, one bill that requires access to mail in ballots, one bill that requires states to act to reduce wait times for people standing in line. Make Joe and others take a stand on specific issues.
schrodingers_cat
@Laura: That’s a great idea.
Cameron
If the last few months are any indicator, the Democrats are going to have one hell of a story to tell in 2022. Don’t let it get covered up by Republican lies.
Kropacetic
@Laura: I do like the idea of getting Manchin and other Senators on the record for individual, particular issues. Problem is that if each of these bills is subject to filibusters and other procedural chicanery, a lot of time can be burned with little done.
Kropacetic
I bet we could get a large bipartisan majority for a resolution stating “we can’t work with those people.”
Odie Hugh Manatee
@tybee: “if he does that shit he needs to be removed from all senate committees and relegated to sitting in a corner for the remainder of his term.”
I said the exact same thing a bit ago to our daughter, strip him and sit him in the corner until he wises the fuck up. I wrote Wyden to ask him to suggest to Manchin that he hire Tonya Harding as a spokesperson.
It pisses me off to no end that when Republicans control the Senate, they pass every damned thing they want. No matter how horrible it is, it gets the votes. But when Democrats are in control of the Senate? Hahahahahaha…
Baud
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
What did they pass besides tax cuts when they had the majority?
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: To be fair, tax cuts were the only thing they really wanted.
Bonnie
I, too, am in a bluer than blue state and really, really don’t like Joe Manchin. I like him even less now.
Ksmiami
@Subsole: I’ve already started donating- thinking of asking Blogfather what he needs to get content from Balloon juice into video format and onto YouTube etc. People would watch our experts I believe and it could dramatically improve the reach that this vital site has…
Another Scott
ICYMI, …
(Their plane had to return to JBA.)
Chance is always out there, waiting and willing to throw a boulder in anyone’s soufflé…
Cheers,
Scott.
dave319
@Cacti: Yeah, very much the reason Dr. King and Karl Marx deeply mistrusted the bourgeoisie’s commitment to social justice, their being the “centrists” of their (and, apparently, our own) day.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: Yes, like I posted above, what’s already happening plus the John Lewis bill and an infrastructure bill are pretty good accomplishments to campaign on in 2022. I like our position better than that of the GOP.
Ksmiami
@schrodingers_cat: they did a study of optimistic vs realistic military prisoners of war. The survivors were all gritty realists. The optimists all died because they ran out of hope
Baud
@Ksmiami:
We’re not prisoners of war.
HumboldtBlue
@schrodingers_cat:
Please show us the fucking bright side here. We have more than 200 bills in states aimed to block voting, we have an entire political party saying out loud they will steal whatever they need to in order to declare themselves winners of an election and we have a cohort of so-called elected Democrats who believe bipartisanship is more important that protecting our political process and the sanctity of our elections.
So please, tell me where the bright spots are, because from every indication the clouds keep getting darker and darker but I guess if you just wish for nice things they’ll magically appear.
Seriously, where is the silver lining here?
Azhrie139
@Omnes Omnibus: Imagine being this deeply in denial. Lord knows why things like Jan 6 happen
Kropacetic
We must work with the people seeking to destroy democracy in order to save democracy.
Subsole
@Ksmiami: Sounds like a good idea.
rikyrah
David Darmofal (@david_darmofal) tweeted at 4:04 PM on Sun, Jun 06, 2021:
“Some men see things as they are and say why. I dream things that never were and say why not.”
— Robert F. Kennedy, November 20, 1925 – June 6, 1968 https://t.co/QXzj8maOFK
(https://twitter.com/david_darmofal/status/1401646234339794946?s=03)
Omnes Omnibus
@Ksmiami: You are of course oversimpilifying like crazy. People with hopes like we be home by Christmas are the ones who gave up as died. Those who had confidence that they would get through if they toughed it out survived.
Ksmiami
@Baud: Manchin and the nuts during the Pandemic make me feel like one.
The Thin Black Duke
@HumboldtBlue: I guess there’s nothing left to but kill ourselves, right?
Omnes Omnibus
@Azhrie139: ????
Old School
@Omnes Omnibus:
Wouldn’t passing the John Lewis bill likely require ending the filibuster? I’m not sure it will be able to be listed as an accomplishment.
Baud
@The Thin Black Duke:
I did that this morning. Made me feel a lot better.
The Thin Black Duke
OT, but Clarence Williams III died. Damn it.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Thin Black Duke: Linc and Prince’s dad. RIP
Ksmiami
@Omnes Omnibus: literally the summary was about the usefulness of optimism under duress. It’s ok to recognize we are in for a very dangerous struggle while actually doing the work to overcome adversity. Just don’t blow smoke and say it’ll be easy or fun.
Kropacetic
@The Thin Black Duke: Being a little more tolerant of one another and recognizing that there are actual people behind these nyms may help.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yep, and they got them.
Brachiator
@Ksmiami:
Nonsense. Also, as noted, we are not prisoners of war.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ksmiami: I have never said it would be easy or fun. It, however, is doable and necessary. So whining about it or fantasizing about some violent way around the hard work is at best a waste of time and quite likely counterproductive. YMMV.
frosty
@germy: Yes, obvs. I should have used these “//“. It was my attempt at a joke.
Woulda been sad if they sold that last Chromebook to somebody else while walking you over to the rhoombas.
Ksmiami
@Brachiator: they applied the theory to larger uses… the study challenged conventional wisdom that optimistic people are more successful… that’s all
Brachiator
@HumboldtBlue:
A pretty good summary of the challenge ahead.
It’s useful to have a clear understanding of what needs to be done.
So what are you going to do about it?
featheredsprite
@JoyceH: We could try. And probably should try.
Ksmiami
@Omnes Omnibus: not whining, just listening to how people who have struggled longer and harder for justice in this country keep going. That said, strip Manchin of his committee leadership and if McConnell is the direct enemy we face it will be easier than a mealy mouthed excuse
Omnes Omnibus
@Ksmiami: This is kind of fun.
Baud
Kropacetic
Hey, at least no one here expressing feelings of impending doom is an elected official foreclosing our non-violent options.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: more on point.
Ksmiami
@HumboldtBlue: thank you for this. We need to hold the media to account- the GOP is a radical revanchist party and a danger to us all. Start writing to the heads of universal/Comcast, Warner Medicaid the fucking fucker NY Times
Baud
@Kropacetic:
I’m pretty sure Manchin is a jackal.
Kropacetic
@Baud: Sorry, your hunch alone is insufficient proof. I need 10,000 signed and verified hunches.
Eta: And if Manchin were posting here, it would be really odd for him to be prophesying impending doom based on the actions of Joe Manchin.
Ksmiami
@Baud: https://medium.com/@sharonackman/soldiers-with-this-trait-are-survivors-in-war-and-life-2b7c6ad34afb
schrodingers_cat
@Ksmiami: You think I have survived in this country as an immigrant where my kind makes up less than 1 percent of the population without being a realist?
Giving in to despair and predicting doom with certainty and criticizing elected Democrats for not doing what I want yesterday, is not my definition of realism.
Ksmiami
My favorite quote: “We all need hope. But not false hope. You can’t totally deny what is happening, to make it easier to cope. Because when we delude ourselves, we stop being able to separate fantasy from reality. Which becomes a big problem.”
Baud
@Ksmiami:
That proves what Omnes has been saying. The difference isn’t really optimism vs. pessimism. It’s people who believed in immediate action vs. people who could handle the uncertainty of the longer term.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ksmiami: It really depends on how one defines false hope, doesn’t it?
rikyrah
Anne Boleyn (Sussex Supporter) (@TudorChick1501) tweeted at 11:18 AM on Sun, Jun 06, 2021:
Whatever your personal feelings about the Queen, I can’t help but stan a man who names his daughter after the strongest women in his childhood, knowing full well the trolls & British media would completely melt down over it.
Prince Harry, you are a king. https://t.co/3OdBYyCU8C
(https://twitter.com/TudorChick1501/status/1401574256945795073?s=03)
Baud
@Kropacetic:
Manchin likes to troll.
The Thin Black Duke
@schrodingers_cat:
White people love feeling bad. They can afford to.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: There is a very good possibility that Manchin is DougJ.
Brachiator
@Ksmiami:
I am interested in stuff like this, but it sounds too reductive to be meaningful. Especially taking anything about the specific circumstances of prisoners of war and applying it to success in life.
Anyway, the discussion here is about expressions of pessimism vs expressions of optimism. I say let everyone say how they feel because it all can be useful.
Just Chuck
When Manchin is up for reelection, he’s going to be obliterated by a real-deal wingnut. He’s pretty much killed any Dem turnout. Fuck him. Fuck him forever, and hang the demise of democracy in this country around his worthless fucking neck forever.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Thin Black Duke: Dude, I am almost translucent, and I don’t buy in to the doom shit.
Ksmiami
@schrodingers_cat: again, I’m not giving in but we are slowly running into a fucking brick wall and it’s probably a good idea to figure out how not to let it happen. Like camping out in front of Manchin and Sinema’s offices, getting better ads for Democratic candidates etc…
Ksmiami
@Just Chuck: come sit by me- reading about Tito’s partisans is helpful too
Kropacetic
This.
But if someone feels that people who feel a way they don’t approve of should not be posting?
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropacetic: People can post what they want, but no one should be surprised if a lot of threads become a depressive circle jerk as anyone who isn’t depressed either walks away or gets sucked in.
ETA: And with that I out of here – probably for the rest of the night.
Gvg
@rikyrah: it was still West Virginians who voted for him. Money only helps so much. That is not the whole story. He has to actually appeal to his voters. He has been re-elected so he know some things about his state.
Also I don’t think that number is real or even possible. I would expect him to have most money from out of state, but not to that extent.
Brachiator
@Kropacetic:
I like the Balloon Juice community. I like that the lord of the manor, John Cole, let people post whatever with a light hand. I like that people are mostly respectful of each other.
After this, it is up to each person to decide whether or not they want to lurk, participate or go elsewhere.
But no one is under any obligation to shape their comments to be optimistic or to reflect any particular sentiment.
How would people react if someone said “the comments here should reflect a love of country and the idea that America is the hope of all nations?”
Just Chuck
@Kropacetic:
JFC that sentence was murder to parse.
The Moar You Know
@Ohio Mom: The answer in my rather large district is unfortunately “yes” and “pretty damn easy to start one” as because of it, we’re closing the second largest school we have. My wife is a teacher in said district. The last year has been unimaginably awful, and yeah, a lot of our rich local parents (it’s a rich district) are pulling their kids out of the public school so that they never have to take time off from work to spend with their little sociopaths ever again, and if some teachers or kids gotta die because of that, well, that’s what we pay them minimum wage for.
I wish this was bullshit. It isn’t.
krahbedad
By Manchin logic he would be just fine with Democratic Senate Committee funding his Republican Challenger in the next election he faces because…. hell that’s bipartisanship.
Gvg
@schrodingers_cat: I don’t see Democrats suck over and over, I see Manchin and Sinema suck. Do you think they don’t?
Look, we are mad and are venting. One of the things about online communities, is the crowd is a lot bigger than a couple of friends in your living room and when we all feel pretty much the same, it comes out as repetitive. I don’t know what to do about it. It seems just the way things work on the internet. Blogs about other things such as sports teams or school boards or hobbies do the same super long echo effect.
Also, even though we follow politics more than average, we really don’t know enough, so this is all kind of inconclusive. That means we can’t figure out how to finish this discussion. IMO of course.
Kropacetic
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t mind, if someone doesn’t like another’s tone, if that person were to criticize them constructively.
This tendency of some to write off entire categories of speech with nothing more than a “don’t talk like that” is not constructive. If we’re worried about pessimism dispiriting people, how bad is it to tell someone their feelings or worries aren’t valid for sharing? Some making this demand also engage in similar doomsaying, just regarding their own approved grievances.
It’s okay to deplore and instance of pessimism or any other whole ass category of speech. But let’s try to make ourr critiques helpful.
Kropacetic
@Just Chuck: Imagine trying to construct it.
Brachiator
@rikyrah:
Harry and Meghan have a new baby girl? Good for them. Congratulations!
Chief Oshkosh
@germy: Been saying that forever, which probably means it’s a bad idea for some reason I can never figure out. Hell, my plan is to START with her in jail and then see what Joe will agree to on the road to getting her out for weekend visits.
Ohio Mom
The Moar You Know @268:
I try never to be shy about saying I stand corrected. That your wife’s district is closing a school is shocking.
I do not see a rush to alternatives to public schooling my area but isn’t that the problem with most discussions about public education, everyone (me too!) depends too much on their localized experience.
Where do you live? I wonder how long those new private schools will last. Those parents may be determined never again to be locked up with their little darlings but wait until they find out how much heavy lifting it will be to get their new schools going. A charismatic principal might pull things together but when they leave…
Our (deep-pocketed suburban) school district gave families a choice at the beginning of the year, in-person or remote and no backsies. They hired 40 (!) extra teachers to cover the extra work of running two sets of classes, and while some in-school staff and students lost time to quarantining for two weeks after possible exposures, there was not one instance of in-school transmission.
What they will do for the next school year is still under discussion. It will be interesting to see what they come up with, especially for the younger, not eligible for vaccination yet students.
J R in WV
I hate to confess, but I have actually voted for the fucker Joe Manchin many times, when the other candidate on the ballot line was a Republican. No more. Fuck that asshole!! I never contributed a nickel to him, never helped get out the vote for him. But in the end, I voted for the Democrat, even if it was a loathsome Joe Manchin.
No more, never gonna happen again, ever~!!~ I will be calling his office tomorrow to tell them so.
jl
Manchin is up for reelection when Biden is up, I think, in 2024. If Manchin thinks he’ll have an easier ride getting reelected when there is a referendum on an ineffectual president from his own party who hasn’t been able to do much, then Manchin is a fool.
But, probably he is. He’s been talking absolute incoherent self-contradictory nonsense from week to week for months now. Whatever gets him through the next few seconds without having to risk his cushy high profit do-nothing job. Huh… sounds like another politician who was big in the news for a while. Hope Manchin making himself an infamous fool in the eyes of history.
StringOnAStick
I set up a monthly donation to Marc Elias’ Democracy Docket today. I think his work and the groups like Four Directions are the highest potential bang for my bucks.
Morzer
@krahbedad:
Maybe Joe Manchin is his own Republican challenger…
Timill
@jl: Manchin seems to think he can get re-elected in 2024 by getting more votes than his opponent.
Without H.1/S.1 that won’t happen in a Red state. He can get all the votes he wants, and the SoS will certify the R as the winner.
glc
@Ksmiami:
https://medium.com/s/story/combat-tested-training-unwind-and-sleep-anywhere-in-120-seconds-27d5307b7606
Morzer
@Just Chuck: It’s kinda hard to see a counter-argument to this:
“Senator Manchin, you apparently don’t believe in doing things that Republicans won’t vote for. Can I assume you aren’t running for re-election, given that Republicans aren’t going to endorse your candidacy?”
Morzer
@Morzer:
Also, this:
https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1400894708948348934
Ksmiami
So tomorrow is the first day of the serious fight against GOP autocratic fascist rule by any means necessary. Manchin made his choice, now we plow over the Republican Party.
Ksmiami
@J R in WV: he is loathsome pond scum
The Truffle
@Citizen Alan:
Is it really 49 percent?
the pollyanna from hell
Don’t make me come over there./
Kay
The Senate voted 98-0 to renew the Voting Rights Act in 2006.
It was (obviously) bipartisan.
No Democrats changed their position on supporting voting rights since that 2006 vote- every single Republican reversed their 2006 position and did a 180 degree turn to opposing voting rights.
The evidence on the right to vote and the Republican Party is overwhelming- they’re opposed. Anyone who doesn’t see that at this point is willfully blind. Protect it with a strong federal law and effective, courageous enforcement or lose it- that’s the choice.
Morzer
@Kay: Preach it, Kay!
Kay
If we can’t get legislative work performed on voting rights – and we apparently can’t because some of these senators would rather spend their days penning boring, poorly written op eds about all the reasons they can’t manage to do their fucking jobs, it’s time to go to Plan B.
Plan B is the Biden Administration and the Department of Justice. There are still some voting laws on the books that haven’t been gutted by Justice Roberts. Get creative, get courageous and get to work using each and every tool at the executive branch’s disposal and if we need to find and hire some DOJ lawyers who aren’t potted plants and afraid of their own shadow to do that, we can find and hire better lawyers who aren’t afraid to fight.
Morzer
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/institutionalists-hurt-democracy-filibuster/619093/
Kay
We have the parts of the VRA Roberts hasn’t (yet) gutted. We have the National Voter Registration Act and we have the Help America Vote Act. We have disability rights federal laws and we have the United States Constitution.
Start suing them. Contest every one of the new state laws in any court that will accept paper. Make it so their state AG’s don’t do anything other than respond to attacks on these laws. Make it clear they have a fight on their hands, in 5, 10, 15 states. Double or triple the size of the voting rights team at the DOJ and hire exclusively aggressive, passionate people who aren’t terrified of losing. Go into a state like Texas and ensure they follow each and every federal law and rule to the letter. Pick a fight. Make it as hard as possible for them. Ad-ver-sarial. They are on the other side.
Kay
2006, 98-0 in support of voting rights.
2021, Manchin can’t get a single GOP vote.
That’s what happened.
They already restructured the voting of America on a partisan line. They restructured voting on a Republican line and then eagerly set about disenfranchising Democrats. They’ll continue until they’re stopped.
Ksmiami
@Kay: fix it in the legislature or start the fisticuffs. There’s truly nothing good about being ruled by the GQP…
Elizabelle
@Kay: Thank you for your comments, Kay. There are actions we (Americans/Democrats/good government types) can take, and work to be done. Support Democrats, and demand the actions to protect and enhance democracy. Have to work around the Manchins of the world, as we already have to work against the Republicans and those who support them.
Proud to be a Democrat, and to support Democrats. I cannot do existential despair. It’s always a fight, and it is sad to see the backsliding. Rightwing media/plutocrats built all these lies and apparatus that enable modern Republicans’ actions, which would have been unthinkable 30 to 40 years ago.
There are also good government types among those who used to support Republicans, and now find themselves horrified by their former party and its politicians. If we know them, contact them, and have them write/contact/phone their GOP Senators and more local elected officials to remind them of the supporters they have lost, and will continue to lose. Make it clear that there will be a price for continuing down this road.
There are more of us. We need to make cause with everyone who will support us, and make sure they are able to vote and participate politically. Use what we already have, before it is taken away, too. News like this actually might make it easier to turn out voters. The stakes are very clear. They’re actually quite explainable. (Have not read Manchin’s opus, but I am surprised to hear it said that he cannot explain the proposed legislation to West Virginians. Oh really??)
tam1MI
@Ksmiami:
@Baud: https://medium.com/@sharonackman/soldiers-with-this-trait-are-survivors-in-war-and-life-2b7c6ad34afb
Dead thread, but it’s worth noting that this joke of an article cites no studies whatsoever, and furthermore reaches its sweeping conclusions from a grand total of two anecdotes.