Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

This country desperately needs a functioning fourth estate.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

When you’re in more danger from the IDF than from Russian shelling, that’s really bad.

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

Well, whatever it is, it’s better than being a Republican.

Dumb motherfuckers cannot understand a consequence that most 4 year olds have fully sorted out.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

White supremacy is terrorism.

We can’t confuse what’s necessary to win elections with the policies that we want to implement when we do.

It is not hopeless, and we are not helpless.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

People are weird.

This isn’t Democrats spending madly. This is government catching up.

You are so fucked. Still, I wish you the best of luck.

“Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on.”

The willow is too close to the house.

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

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206Comments

  3. 3.

    germy

    The Pinkertons—yes, *those* Pinkertons, the most notoriously violent strikebreakers in U.S. history, who murdered countless workers in the name of capital—changed their avatar for #Pride Month, and I’ll be damned if it’s not one of the most dystopian things I’ve ever laid eyes on pic.twitter.com/uCMZPxa9B9

    — Kim Kelly (@GrimKim) June 14, 2021

  4. 4.

    justawriter

    Tell me you’ve never read the Bible without telling me you’ve never read the Bible

    (Insert any Republican campaign slogan from 1980 to the present)

  6. 6.

    germy

    Netanyahu: The PM of Israel must be able to say no to the President of the U.S. and back it by massive campaign in Congress and in U.S. public opinion. I did it in 2015 – Who will do it now? Lapid who attacked my speech Congress? They can’t and won’t stand up to the U.S.

    — Barak Ravid (@BarakRavid) June 13, 2021

    It’s pretty wild to see the (former) leader of a US client state openly proclaiming that willingness to interfere in US politics is a key job qualification. https://t.co/seHzWs3xAS

    — Matt Duss (@mattduss) June 13, 2021

  7. 7.

    dr. bloor

    Eh, it’s funny, but I’d say it’s an unforced error.  She really shouldn’t be responding to MTG in any way, much less provocatively.

  8. 8.

    Citizen Alan

    I have believed for over 30 years now that there are two types of people in this country who self-identify as Christians. There are the ones who have accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts and allowed Him to make a change in them such that they become better, more compassionate people who are genuinely concerned with the welfare of others. And then there are the ones who just got dunked in a bathtub when they were little kids after being subtly (or not so subtly) pressured into it by family members. And then they were later raised to believe that, having been dunked, they were intrinsically better than other people and could be as absolutely hateful and cruel and selfish as they wanted to be and still get into heaven.

    I have truly believed in those two categories for 30 years. But it took the election of Donald Trump with the support of 81% of evangelicals to make me realize that Group 2 outnumbered Group 1 by a 4 to 1 margin. That was when I swore I would never set foot in a Baptist church again. Because I feared associating with such people would risk my immortal soul.

  10. 10.

    Baud

    @germy:

    I don’t understand people complaining about companies celebrating Pride.  If someone is making the argument that companies are good people because of it, then it’s ok to set them straight.  But otherwise, corporate America recognizing that our views on LGBT issues are more important than right-wing views is an unmitigated good thing.

  11. 11.

    Ken

    She’s obviously never heard “All Things Dull and Ugly“.

    Also, there’s any number of stories in the Bible where God sends diseases, targeting either the Israelites or their enemies. There’s even been movies of some of the more famous ones.

  12. 12.

    Betty Cracker

    @germy:

    It’s pretty wild to see the (former) leader of a US client state openly proclaiming that willingness to interfere in US politics is a key job qualification.

    Yes. Yes it is. If we were living in normal times, I’m guessing this would be a much bigger story, and more Americans would be questioning reflexive U.S. deference to its client state. But the fact that one of the two viable political parties is trying to ether democracy has kinda sucked all the air out of the room…

  14. 14.

    Ohio Mom

    Off topic but isn’t every thread an open one?

    The basement guys are here.

    One of them is jackhammering the front stoop and one has a mini backhoe in the back, excavating in front of the back foot.

    For reasons we’ll never know, the people who built this house in the mid 1970’s did not pour foundations under doorways correctly.

    There are a few guys in the basement too, adding vertical supports in the crawl space and shoring up the front wall. The builders didn’t do those parts correctly either.

    But maybe you can’t hear the jackhammer over my sobs. Bye bye a chunk of retirement savings.

  19. 19.

    Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix

    @dr. bloor:

    Eh, it’s funny, but I’d say it’s an unforced error.  She really shouldn’t be responding to MTG in any way, much less provocatively.

    If this were a person who, e.g., dated someone, broke up, and then that person stalked them, I’d agree.  Even though you might feel that the person who stalked you did you wrong, provoking them gratifies the stalker.

    The MTG/AOC relationship is a political one where MTG has gone way past the boundaries of reasonable political discourse.  I don’t know what AOC’s smart move is, but giving MTG the power to silence her probably isn’t it.

  21. 21.

    ian

    Wasn’t MTG the same one that said Covid couldn’t have come from bats because evolution isn’t real?

  23. 23.

    Kay

    @Citizen Alan:

     And then there are the ones who just got dunked in a bathtub when they were little kids after being subtly (or not so subtly) pressured into it by family members. And then they were later raised to believe that, having been dunked, they were intrinsically better than other people and could be as absolutely hateful and cruel and selfish as they wanted to be and still get into heaven.

    It’s funny, because I’ve come to believe it’s much more fluid than that. I think they push the promotion and marketing so much because they can’t keep members. It isn’t genuinely substantive and “meaty” enough for people to stick around long term, so they churn thru a big, low-loyalty “market”, if you will.
    We have a megachurch here and I have spoken to hundreds of members. I think the “former member” group is bigger than the members at any given time. They’re loosely attached because it’s thin ground to plant a whole life in. It’s why they lose so many young people the moment the young people are exposed to any other ideas. The thing itself is low quality. Greene is a good example of how thin it is. The attrition rate in fundy churches would be interesting to look at. It seems REALLY high to me locally.

  27. 27.

    Matt

    @Citizen Alan: Don’t forget category 3: people who as grown-up adults picked the most hateful religion they could find and joined it specifically for the hate. For instance, guys like Ross Douthat who left Pentecostalism (for papism) because it wasn’t fashy enough.

  28. 28.

    narya

    @Ohio Mom: A friend’s nephew ended up building much of his house himself. The contractor wasn’t following the plans–including putting basically no footings under the supports for the 2nd-floor porch–and nephew luckily saw it happening and fired him. But then had to do a ton of the remaining work. In other words: I send my sympathy to you.

  30. 30.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Citizen Alan:

    CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin. Ambrice Brice, The Devil’s Dictionary 1906.

    This has been an issue in this country for a long while.

    On the other hand MTG apparently hasn’t even watched a religious movie or she would recall Jesus healing Lepers.  Or this the Religious Right drop that bit as to much like socialized medicine?

  35. 35.

    Citizen Alan

    @Kay: ​
     

    TBH, I’ve never attended a real “megachurch,” just a succession of small-town churches. My impression of the megachurch phenomenon is that it’s mostly for shallow Christians who want to be able to identify as Christians for tribal purposes but don’t want to commit anything more than putting on some nice clothes for Sunday morning services most weeks. That and taking advantage of the “country club” aspects of the megachurch, i.e. business networking opportunities and after school sports activities for the kids.

    As you can tell, I’m very cynical about Christianity.

  39. 39.

    Citizen Alan

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​
    The “dunk vs. sprinkle” debate is, as far as I can tell, the primary divider between the various Protestant denominations, at least in the communities I grew up in. My family has been Baptist for generations, but when my sister married into a Methodist family, she and her husband sat down and made a list of mostly pragmatic reasons for joining either the First Baptist Church or the First Methodist Church, which were literally across the street from one another. Her preference for “dunking over sprinkling” won out, and my brother-in-law duly joined the Baptist Church and got dunked a few weeks later.

    Also, I’m not sure if this is accurate, but I’ve been told that, as a (lapsed) Baptist, I can take communion at an Episcopal service because I’ve been baptized, whereas one of the “sprinkle” denominations, could not.

  40. 40.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Baud: The fakeness of corporations that have never been particularly progressive going on about LGBT rights can be irritating. But there can be a nasty undercurrent to the pushback, too, with the implication that the fight for LGBT rights (or even cultural liberalization in general) is just a “corporatist” distraction.

  41. 41.

    Benw

    @Ohio Mom: I feel you. Two summers after we moved into our house, we found out the basement floods and it molded behind the drywall. Ripped everything out, installed french drains, put everything back in. The cost just keep creeping creeping creeping up

  42. 42.

    Kay

    @Citizen Alan:

    The small churches are even worse, though, as far as cohesiveness. They leave at the drop of a hat. It’ll be some minor squabble and it’s “a quarter of us are leaving for this other church and a quarter drop out completely”.

    The lack of real commitment has been noted generally here- people joke about how the teenagers “commit” in summer retreats and things and it lasts 2 weeks. I think it’s why they always feel so persecuted and under threat- they can’t hang onto the converts let alone take over the country. Real religion is hard. It’s rigorous. It demands a lot from the believer. This is like..changing your clothes.

  46. 46.

    Ken

    @Citizen Alan: Taking communion also varies with the denomination, and sometimes with the congregation.  The UMC (Methodists) usually have open communion, so anyone can participate even if they aren’t baptized, or aren’t Christian.

  47. 47.

    smith

    @Citizen Alan: And then they were later raised to believe that, having been dunked, they were intrinsically better than other people and could be as absolutely hateful and cruel and selfish as they wanted to be and still get into heaven.

    I call that type Christopaths to distinguish them from the genuine article.

  49. 49.

    zhena gogolia

    @Kay:

    We (liberal Protestant church) are always being told that the children and youth are the future of the church. But as far as I can tell, they and their parents stay until they graduate from high school (at best), and then they disappear forever. It’s the childless oldsters who stay on for decades.

  50. 50.

    Citizen Alan

    @Kay: Oh heck yeah. The beginning of my withdrawal from Christianity came when I was 16 or 17 and regularly attended a church in town where most of my HS friends went instead of the country church I’d grown up in but which had about 3 kids my age who went to different schools. I actually broached the topic of changing my membership to the church I was actually attending, but my mom begged me not to literally because the older church was going through some “issues” and she wanted to make sure that I could vote with the family on things like hiring new preachers and building fund matters, since fellow church goers belonged to a different “faction.” I said okay, but privately, my reaction was “Oh, that’s what it’s all about!”​
    ​
    ​

  51. 51.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @schrodingers_cat: Yes, I can read.  I am wondering about complaining about someone who votes with the party over 94% of the time.  And I will note that a lot of those votes were on amendments to bills not on final passage.  What percentage of deviation from the party line would you find acceptable?

  52. 52.

    Shakti

    @Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:  You’re right. But in a normal stalker situation, the best move would be to get the stalker fired and get a restraining order. Failing that, it would be to move and get another job for safety.

    However, AoC doesn’t have a normal job.   She can’t get her stalker fired. She can’t get a restraining order.  And even if she moves and gets another job, she is not safe because MtG or her many goons will still come after her. She can’t even begin to pay for her security needs out of a normie person’s salary.

    I remember a long time ago, back in the aughts, Melissa McEwan said if you see a normal person whose been targeted by the right wing on doing a lot of interviews everywhere and seeming to cash out it’s because they need to pay for security.

  55. 55.

    Betty Cracker

    New York Mag has an interesting piece by Ed Kilgore on the Southern Baptist Convention meltdown here.

  56. 56.

    zhena gogolia

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    For me it’s more that her public shtick is criticizing the Democrats. It gets tiresome.

    We’re in the middle of a white-supremacist coup. All hands on deck.

  59. 59.

    schrodingers_cat

    AOC produced a tearful Insta video about her ordeal on Jan 6th but voted with the Rs against giving more resources to the Capitol Police. I am told by the politics knowers of the BJ that was just for show because the bill passed.

    My question, what exactly was she trying to show? I can at least understand some of the Manchin votes though I don’t agree with them because he represents blood red WV. Without him that seat would be an R seat.

  60. 60.

    Josie

    @Citizen Alan: I have attended Episcopal services since my son is a member.  They invited everyone to join in communion, regardless of membership or baptism.  The choice was left up to each person whether to receive the communion hosts or simply receive a blessing by crossing one’s arms across the chest.

  61. 61.

    Betty Cracker

    @Steeplejack: They should update that classic with Samoyeds or Whippets. Everyone seemed to think one of those two would take the prize. :)

  62. 62.

    Mike in NC

    The Internet is telling me today is the Fat Orange Clown’s birthday, and hopefully it will be the last.

  63. 63.

    Kay

    This is like an earthquake, for example:

    Celebrity evangelical Bible teacher Beth Moore’s recent split with the Southern Baptist Convention is the latest in a string of public departures that underscore issues of gender, race and political division within the denomination, some former and current members say.

    The women are leaving (partly) over sexism, but there was a high profile male leader who recently left over the absolute denial and covering up of huge child sexual abuse scandals. Racism too! They can’t support the racism. I think there is maybe more division than someone like me thinks there is and that’s expressed with the constant defensiveness and paranoid insistence that they are being “replaced”. The “leaders” feel threatened because they are- not from “outside” but from inside.

  66. 66.

    Feathers

    @Kay: I’ve always liked the explanation Amanda Marcotte, who was raised in deepest red and fundie West Texas, gave some years back. She said that it was largely an addiction to drama fed by cyclical  feedback between their highly dysfunctional families and a religious life led in constant fear of eternal damnation caused by giving in to satan’s temptations for even one moment.

    Politicians who can scratch that itch go far with that demographic.

    On the young’uns leaving. Yes they do, but unfortunately many return when they have kids and need support from their (dysfunctional) community and the cycle begins again. Also, in many of these areas local government has been so starved of funds that mega churches pick up the slack with playgrounds, day care, and children’s sports. The local steampunk festival in Waltham held a literary track in the public library. Attendees were wandering around agog at the marvels. I had to explain that this was a fairly normal public library in suburban Boston. They didn’t even know this sort of library was possible.

  69. 69.

    Betty Cracker

    @Matt McIrvin: Interesting! I was under the impression that the dunk vs. sprinkle question was fundamental to doctrinal orientation for reasons that escape me.

  70. 70.

    Ken

    @Citizen Alan: Yeah, academic politics has nothing on church politics when it comes to Sayre’s law. And often it’s not about the big stuff like the pastor or the building project. You can talk about the ancient and holy traditions of the church, but the true passions are reserved for where the salt shakers are stored in the kitchen.

  71. 71.

    Cameron

    @germy: That’s interesting.  The old saw was “a handful of ‘gimme’ and a mouth full of ‘much obliged.'”  The new take appears to be “a handful of ‘gimme’ and a mouthful of ‘fuck you.'”  Strange days.

  72. 72.

    oldster

    What MTG meant was that her God would never kill his people.

    You know, real people. Not like those heathen Egyptians, who lived in Africa also.

    She didn’t mind when COVID killed the blahs, because they’re not real people. Not her people.

    But once it started killing off her white supremacist buddies, then it could not possibly be sent by God. That’s what she meant.

    So, I don’t think that another read of Exodus will help her. The rot goes far too deep for that.

  73. 73.

    Kay

    @Feathers:

    That’s interesting. I’ll read it. I like her- I think she does genuinely original work. You may not always agree but it’s always HERS.

    This is a generalization but I find young fundy women much more open to criticism of the belief system than the men are, which might be because the belief system really secures and buttresses male power. I think they feel comfortable telling me because I’m a heathen :)

  74. 74.

    Ken

    @Betty Cracker: The main doctrinal point is when baptism should be performed — when a person is an infant, or when they are able to understand what it means (generally early teens).  That  correlates somewhat with sprinkle vs. dunk.

  75. 75.

    Feathers

    @schrodingers_cat: She was not voting for increased police funding because that could hurt her in her district. Part of the job of the Whip is to get the votes needed to pass a bill, while balancing the needs of the Members to maintain support from the voters in their district. Voting, with permission, against a bill that passes shouldn’t be counted against someone.

    Also, this bill shows why we are in the horrific situation we are now with the police. Police are failing? More money! Police succeeding? It’s only because of the money, if they don’t get more, things will fall apart. So more money, more equipment, zero accountability or oversight. 

  76. 76.

    Just One More Canuck

    @Omnes Omnibus: I doubt that she’s voted against the D’s on any vote where it was close – she seems more pragmatic than many others. Maybe she clears her vote with the leadership beforehand

  77. 77.

    Feathers

    @Kay: The professor in the white collar crime class I took said that one of the things he knew but couldn’t prove was that a large part of the glass ceiling for women is that men don’t trust women to keep quiet about the harm their companies cause.

  78. 78.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Feathers: I don’t buy it other Ds representing NYC voted for it. Only the Squad didn’t. And Capitol Police is not like regular police they are like the security forces for the Capitol and Congress people.

    Just like the Rs she doesn’t want the Capitol to be safer the next time it is attacked. I saw the breach in real time on how easy it was for the insurrectionists to get in. I judge people by what they do not what they say

    Defund the police was political kryptonite btw in the last elections.

  79. 79.

    MontyTheClipArtMongoose

    @schrodingers_cat: nope.

    no love for the squadratic equation from me.

    (let me also say kudos to virginia’s own squad auxiliary, jennifer carroll foy, who accepted her primary loss to terry mc auliffe without saying the commonwealth’s neoliberal establishment rigged the vote.)

  80. 80.

    owlbrick

    You know it’s going to be an interesting day when you see something that says “in more a serious vein, [links to wonkette]”

  81. 81.

    Glory b

    @schrodingers_cat: I think it’s superficial too. Someone said if AOC wasn’t as conventionally attractive as she is, if she weighed 300 lbs and had a wart on her nose, the amount of attention, laughing at her jokes, nodding in agreement  she gets would drop exponentially.

  82. 82.

    Kay

    Sometimes I don’t know what to do. Democrats have a big job ahead of them.

    I was at a “township beach” on Lake Michigan yesterday, eavesdropping which is my hobby, and I heard two women talking. One was telling the other she had a geology degree (they were looking for pretty rocks on the beach) and then she launched into this “anti lockdown” spiel. She said she had “found” this beach because it was on the MI anti-lockdown Facebook page and it was open because the township beaches aren’t state park beach so not subject to Governor Whitmer. Except the state park beach down the road was open – it was packed which Is why I was on the township beach-  the other woman told her- “No, they’re open”. Geologist (alleged) didn’t miss a beat with this info- continued her speech about how they needed Facebook to find anti-lockdown beaches.

  84. 84.

    scav

    I somehow bet AOC’s swimming with the “official” party line is about as high or higher than the average BJer’s (mellow, agreeable, lockstep lot that we are).

  91. 91.

    Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix

    @schrodingers_cat:

    AOC produced a tearful Insta video about her ordeal on Jan 6th but voted with the Rs against giving more resources to the Capitol Police. I am told by the politics knowers of the BJ that was just for show because the bill passed.

    Wow, your empathy towards someone who experienced genuine trauma just shines through. I’ll remember that the next time you whine about how you’re treated in the comments here.

    LOL at the notion that she should be castigated because she votes with her party a mere 94% of the time.

    Also, a further snicker at the idea that it is AOC and others like her who don’t get the seriousness of the moment.  Direct your “All Hands on Deck” comments towards the D’s in the Senate who are blocking the legislation that the House has already approved.

  92. 92.

    catclub

    @Betty Cracker: Sacraments are ‘an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace’.  Thus, the physical way you do it should matter less than the other part.

    Total immersion, but then saying grape juice is wine.

    oy vey

  95. 95.

    scav

    @schrodingers_cat: So we’re free and the elected officials are shackled, continually, on all subjects.  Funny how the system still actually lets the individual representatives vote rather than saving time and submitting all items to the party in power’s official offices once the upcoming party majority is declared.

    Jesus, your monomania.

  98. 98.

    lowtechcyclist

    @schrodingers_cat:

    AOC…voted with the Rs against giving more resources to the Capitol Police.

    So, has it been shown that what happened on January 6th had much of anything to do with the Capitol Police’s budget?

    My understanding was they could have had a couple thousand cops on duty that day, but only had a few hundred.

  99. 99.

    Captain C

    @smith: Basically people who think (or at least act like) that because they once declared that they’re letting Jesus into their heart they now have a Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free Card for whatever sins they commit, no matter how bad and otherwise un-Christian.

  103. 103.

    J R in WV

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​
     

    Dunked in a bathtub? The baptisms I have seen involve sprinkling a tiny amount of water on a less than month old baby.

    I still remember my lil brother being christened at the mainstream Presbyterian church on our little home town. Sprinkled with water is correct. Other churches believe total immersion is required, because something in the Bible interpreted differently.

    I baptize our stubborn kitty almost daily with a spritzer bottle intended to moisten plants. Stubborn kitty begs at the dinner table because we feed her after we eat, and gets shot with water to drive her away.

    So many fundy preachers are horrible people, unable to counsel people, unable to advise people, no wonder many mega-churches have a lot of turnover. A lot of those Bible-pounder preachers wind up arrested for fondling little ones of either sex.

    But women (in those theocratic patriarchal churches) aren’t qualified to become ministers or to teach men… go figure?

    Tell me you have never read the Bible without saying “I have never read the bible!” is a great slogan. Most of these RWNJs can’t read simple English about boiling rice, an actual Bible is way past their abilities.

  104. 104.

    Steeplejack

    @JenniferJJacobs: The 13-member Biden traveling press pool was given no access to @POTUS’s inspection of the Guard of Honor with the Queen at Windsor Castle.

    It’s a breach of precedent to not have White House reporters there.

    @MattNegrin: This is a somber day. I’ll always remember where I was when I found out 13-member Biden traveling press pool was given no access to the President’s inspection of the Guard of Honor with the Queen at Windsor Castle.

    Are we just supposed to return to work tomorrow like everything is normal?

  105. 105.

    Ksmiami

    @Kay: Covid is rising among the unwashed, unvaxxed so perhaps just let time and plague do the work- I just don’t know how to counter the Fox true believers- they refuse to see reason so I figure maybe let stupidity do it’s work

  106. 106.

    DB11

    Nothing like Balloon Juice in the morning for bad takes from the olds on AOC.

    Maybe a more far-sighted take on the positive role she plays in drawing in younger voters and the impact of her social media jiu-jitsu (on behalf of a party that is notoriously bad at messaging), along with an acknowledgement of her seriousness of purpose — as evidenced by her hard work and meticulous preparation for her committee assignments — would yield a more generous judgment of her value to the party and its future.

    If some of you had your way, she would be driven from the party — and it’s only your distance from young people and their current (political) thinking that permits you to believe that that would be a good thing.

    She’s young, she’s talented, she’s a natural leader… and yes, she’s still learning. But anyone who doesn’t see her as (at worst) a net asset to the party is telling on themselves.

  107. 107.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I just think the idea that they are “clowns” who can be handled by ignoring them is wrong. They are dead serious and they are moving process and laws toward overturning elections every fucking day. Every day.

    We aren’t going back to normal.

    Tierney Sneed

    @Tierney_Megan

    I checked in on the push to pass into law new voter restrictions in Michigan, where Republicans are hoping to do an end-run around the Dem guv’s veto w/ a gambit that will require only ~340,000 petition

  108. 108.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Am I the only person on Balloon Juice who is not a fan of the social media influencer who moonlights as a Congressperson, mostly to vote against the Ds?

    Nope. This tweet is cute, and she sometimes does a good job in committee, but overall she’s a net loss for Dems.

  110. 110.

    Ohio Mom

    Zhena gogolia:

    Eventually, the children who left after graduating high school will have children of their own and join a church so the children can have a religious education.

    When they are young, the children will run through the social hall at coffee hour and the oldsters — the ones who, as you point out, are the permanent fixtures — will beam at the youthful energy filling their church.

    It’s the same at every non-orthodox synagogue.

  113. 113.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay: I agree that they are dead serious and their threats should be taken seriously and dealt with. That said there is nothing to be gained by amplifying them on social media.

  114. 114.

    Betty Cracker

    @DB11: For what it’s worth, I’m an old fart with grown children, and I like AOC and believe she’s an asset to the party. I suspect many of my fellow old farts on this blog feel the same way. Sometimes I have the time and inclination to argue with her detractors, but lately it seems pointless, so I don’t bother. No one is going to change their minds.

  115. 115.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: Also, a further snicker at the idea that it is AOC and others like her who don’t get the seriousness of the moment.  Direct your “All Hands on Deck” comments towards the D’s in the Senate who are blocking the legislation that the House has already approved.

    True. We need to elect more Dems to the Senate in ’22.

    Remember when Warnock and Ossoff held big rallies with Bernie and “the Squad”? Look for the same pattern in the seven or eight states in play next year. And pray Little Miss Can’t Be Wrong doesn’t make herself the face of the party this time next year.

  116. 116.

    Glory b

    @Kathleen: Just mad because,  in spite of dreamy AOC, we still vote more often than the Youngs do.

    Then again, I’m black, and we are used to more respect for elders. As a group, members of minority groups know that making up generational division isn’t a luxury we can afford.

  118. 118.

    J R in WV

    @catclub:

    Total immersion, but then saying grape juice is wine.

    I’ve even heard fundy people claiming that back in Jesus’s day, grape juice didn’t ferment into wine at all, so it was impossible for Jesus to have changed water to wine — this is so incoherent a babble I have trouble comprehending it at all~!!~

    Plus, given the total lack of sanitation science, without wine and beer so many more people would have died of unsanitory water supply we may have never developed civilization. Fermented drinks won’t typically give you cholera, for just one example.

  119. 119.

    DB11

    @Betty Cracker: True that.

    Sometimes I have the time and inclination to argue with her detractors, but lately it seems pointless, so I don’t bother. No one is going to change their mind.

    I mostly lurk, so I let most stuff pass by without commenting — but at times here it seems that the crankiest voices are the most amplified (or at least the most dominant) — so I decided to speak up for the benefit of those of us in the bleachers, and to help re-balance the equation, if only infinitesimally :)

  120. 120.

    Baud

    AOC aside, I do struggle with the question SC initially asked, about how best to respond to the other side when they say things like this.  I believe mockery and ridicule have their place, but I worry about treating the fascists as our entertainment.

    Nothing AOC specific about the question.  I wonder about it in my own snarking on this blog.

  121. 121.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    The O’Bros podcast talked, briefly, about a new study analyzing 2020 turn-out, and it was comical to listen to them try to avoid the parts that illustrated, again, that Rose Twitter rhetoric hurt Democrats, and were related to the gains Rs made among African-Americans and Hispanics. As they approach their fortieth birthdays, they’re that much more desperate for that vicarious youth and cool.

    And now the genii of the “progressive” caucus are gonna throw an anchor named Bowl Of Shit Turner at the Ohio Dem Senate candidate.

  122. 122.

    rikyrah

    @Citizen Alan:

    And then there are the ones who just got dunked in a bathtub when they were little kids after being subtly (or not so subtly) pressured into it by family members.

     

    Now, this is me. That’s how I was baptized at 6.

    Went to church a minimum of 3 out of 4 Sundays every month until I was 18 and went away to college.

    But, I was never Evangelical.

    Just Black Baptist.

    I believe in Jesus. That organized religion thing?

    Eh

    Prosperity Gospel Hustler Preachers?

    Hell muthaphuckin’ no.

  124. 124.

    J R in WV

    @Steeplejack:

    Not to mention that Joe Biden isn’t in charge of who gets to watch anything in the Queen’s palaces, the Queen is in charge!

    If the Queen doesn’t want a pool reporter, there won’t be a pool reporter. It’s her palace, her palace guard, her tea party. So sorry the reporters didn’t get to watch the royal tea party… Not!

  125. 125.

    rikyrah

    @schrodingers_cat:

     

    MTG is cray cray. AOC (and anyone else for that matter) should give her a wide berth.

     

    That’s why Cory Bush moved her actual office.

    She wasn’t gonna let MTG risk that good government job with benefits.

    Unlike Always On Camera, I do believe Cory Bush is ‘ about that life’. And, would have only been able to hold out for so long, before MTG would have caught a case of the hands from Cory Bush.

  126. 126.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @schrodingers_cat: Davids and Underwood, and Colin Alred and Conor Lamb and Abigail Spanberger are the reason we have Speaker Pelosi.

    You know who loves to see AOC on CNN of a Sunday morning? Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell.

  127. 127.

    Baud

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Rose Twitter rhetoric hurt Democrats, and were related to the gains Rs made among African-Americans and Hispanics.

    I had not heard of that analysis.  Is there a reason AA and Hispanic voters were particularly turned off by Rose Twitter?

  130. 130.

    DB11

    @Glory b: For the the record, I’m only a few months away from being an official old myself.

    I happen to agree with you about (not) fomenting intergenerational division: my comment was meant to draw attention to the fact that AOC is a huge draw for young people into the ‘big tent’ of the democratic party who would otherwise be left on the sidelines.

    Old people’s catty sniping about AOC sends its own message — and not one that I believe is helpful to the party’s fortunes — since Democrats do indeed need all hands on deck.

  131. 131.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: “socialism”, et al. I think the study was done by Data FornProgress, but I’m not sure. They didn’t mention or link to it in any of their various tweets

  133. 133.

    J R in WV

    @Baud:

    I wonder about it in my own snarking on this blog.

    You were SNARKING~!!~ Oh noes!!!

    I am semi-demolished, who to vote for next cycle if Baud is Snarking!?!!??!!!

    More seriously, as a very old retired person, I really like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, her ability to joke about serious stuff, her ability to appeal to her constituents, her ability to make the RWNJs look like the fools they are. Her snark is the very best, top snark.

    Ms Greene is a dammed fool on every level.

  135. 135.

    Glory b

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:  AOC has said she’s really more of a socialist than anything. Max Rose said that he lost because the advertising in his district tied her to him constantly.

    She said if we had any other kind of system in the United States, she wouldn’t be a Democrat.

    She said that she will refuse to turn over her share of fundraising money to the DCC, so they can spread it around to candidates that need funds. Instead, she said she will donate to the candidates that she wants to. This isn’t good for the party.

    And it’s true, the groups that backed her up, like the sunshine dems and the Justice dems, have said they’re not here to work well with the rest of us, but to have a hostile take over of the party. These are the ones who say that the rest of us are going to have to “bend the knee” when they win.

    My recollection is that she had a big argument with Hakim Jeffries over telling other people how to win their districts. He pointed out that every district isn’t like hers and her appeal won’t work for everyone.

    I’ll also mention that her backers have stated that they’re going to target members of the congressional black caucus for replacement.

    That doesn’t play well with A LOT of black voters. Some of feel like as soon as we gained some real political clout, now it’s time for a hostile takeover. How coincidental.

  136. 136.

    Baud

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ok, thanks.  I just don’t know why AA and Hispanic would disproportionately respond negatively to that message compared to whites (which is what I read you to be saying).

    AOC attracts some voters and repels some voters, but I’ve seen no credible analysis of the net, or where those voters are located, which obviously matters as much as the numbers.

    Obviously, in 2020, Trump and the GOP thought tying Biden to Bernie, AOC, and Liz Warren was advantageous.

  137. 137.

    Mo MacArbie

    Some chuckle this turned out to be. I propose a thread devoted to all of our undying grudges. They can be spoken there once and forever enshrined in the Hall of Grudge. Later, they can simply be referred to by comment number instead of being trotted out yet again.

  139. 139.

    J R in WV

    And last but not least — a Pekinese won Best of Show in the dog beauty contest? That’s so passing strange, where there were so many dogs who can actually do things. Pekes are a poor excuse for a real dog, I couldn’t believe my ears when wife told me the Best of Show was  Peke. So sad.

    Toy purse dog, when there were so many gorgeous pups. Even the giant blue ribbon was too big for the Pekinese to wear, bigger than the dog who won it… unbelievable!!!!!

  140. 140.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @DB11:

    that AOC is a huge draw for young people into the ‘big tent’ of the democratic party who would otherwise be left on the sidelines.

    I keep hearing this, but her primary candidate lost to the guy she called “a corporate-consensus Neo-liberal who’s not socially regressive” (who the fuck is the audience for that precious gibberish?) by two-to-one. Elizabeth Warren chased that vote, hard, and came in third in her home state, one of the bluest Dem constituencies in the country, losing to the CCNLWNSR who didn’t even have an office in MA. If we had listened to AOC, trump would have won in a landslide and Mitch McConnell would be Majority Leader

    My biggest concern about her reputed reach to the Youngs is that she lies to them. “Medicare For All”, the way she means it, is not incredibly popular. There are lots of reasons we can’t have ‘free college’. I’m sure she believes it to her bones that she speaks for the base of the Democratic Party; again, I refer you to the 2020 primaries.

    I don’t think she’s stupid, quite the opposite, which is why find it all the more astounding that after three years in Congress, after everything she’s had a front row seat for, she’s still so utterly clueless about politics outside of her own social media world.

  141. 141.

    Citizen Alan

    @rikyrah: ​
     

    I made my profession of faith at the age of 9 on the second night of a week long Revival. On the first night of the Revival, the entire church watched A Thief In The Night, a 1970s Rapture-porn film in which a woman who keeps putting off “accepting Jesus” wakes to find that her Xtian husband has been Raptured along with all the other Xtians. By the end of the film, she’s captured by agents of the Antichrist (complete with “barcodes” stamped on their foreheads) who take her to have her head chopped off with an actual guillotine.

    The next afternoon, I returned home from playing at a friends house to find that my father’s truck was there and his jacket was hanging up next to the door, but he himself was missing. And I freaked the fuck out! He returned a few hours later from an errand (he’d ridden with a friend), but that night, I tearfully walked the isle. Despite my baptism later in the week, I continued to have nightmares for some time. It was years later before I realized that the church had been psychologically terrorizing children into getting baptized.

  142. 142.

    westyny

    @Betty Cracker:

    Schnauzer is just a funny sounding word in two syllables.  Comedy, as you well know, BC, is like music.  Pre-creepy Woody Allen’s genius stand up was predicated on sound and rhythm in his word choices and syntax.

  143. 143.

    Kathleen

    @Glory b:  I agree. I have some very strong opinions about what I see happening 8n Democratic party but will never voice them here. I also realize no one will beg me to voice them either LOL.

  144. 144.

    DB11

    Also, too. Lauren Underwood is fantastic as are Cory Bush, Ayanna Pressley and several others. But I don’t see this as either/or wrt AOC.

    Each has their own strengths and their own appeal to different (overlapping) constituencies. Just because someone’s style is not our cup of tea isn’t reason enough to demonize or belittle them.

    The Dems need as many young, brilliant, strong women (especially BIPOC) as they can attract into the party if it is to evolve at sufficient pace for these demanding times.

  145. 145.

    Citizen Alan

    @DB11: ​
     

    I put AOC in the “mostly harmless” category, but I can’t help noticing that among my FB friends who are hardcore “cosplay Marxists,” she is literally the only Dem other than Bernie who they quote favorably.

  146. 146.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud:

    Ok, thanks.  I just don’t know why AA and Hispanic would disproportionately respond negatively to that message compared to whites (which is what I read you to be saying).

    I didn’t mean to say that, like I said, I can’t find the study itself, but I don’t think it’s controversial to say that the S word plays very badly with a lot of old people, especially in Cuban and other South American immigrant communities.

  147. 147.

    DB11

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: From the Wonkette article linked in the OP.

    Ocasio-Cortez isn’t demanding that Democrats pass Medicare for All or the Green New Deal through sheer force of will. She’s suggesting that we deliver on promises moderate Democrats made in 2020 when they presumably were aware that Republicans exist. Biden campaigned on a public option, for instance, but he couldn’t possibly have believed that any Republicans would support it, certainly not enough to overcome an inevitable filibuster.

    Contrary to your assertion that she doesn’t understand politics and the way it is (currently) done, I think there’s plenty of evidence that she understand the current game just fine — but doesn’t accept (as most young people don’t) that the game the way it’s played is up to meeting the existential challenges and the consequences that will be borne primarily by their generation(s).

    So even though she often shows impatience with the legislative slow-roll, its not because she doesn’t understand how the sausage is made, but that she does: and that only constant public pressure to act with political courage will give us a chance to come out of this whole

    ETA: I should also note that contrary to SC’s implication, AOC has been on the right side of every vote that really mattered, and has subsumed her preferences to that of party far more often than not.

  148. 148.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @DB11: Shontel Brown is a young woman of color. And a Democrat. AOC and her friends are campaigning against her on behalf of a woman who campaigned against Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. Presumably because Bowl-Of-Shit speaks the would-be magic words of BernieWorld.

  149. 149.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @DB11:

    Contrary to your assertion that she doesn’t understand politics and the way it is (currently) done, I think there’s plenty of evidence that she understand the current game just fine

    Bernie Sanders.

  150. 150.

    Glory b

    @Baud: And although we kept a majority of seats, we lost more than expected and now have a smaller margin.

    Defend the police, socialism, etc., was unpopular in minority communities,  but didn’t affect turnout.

    I haven’t seen anything about individuals, but in these times, I  wonder who out there needs the inspiration if AOC, the squad or anyone else, to go out and vote.

  151. 151.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: As we’ve discussed here before, the “socialist” attack is dismayingly potent among some voter blocs in Florida, but I don’t blame AOC or any other Dem who identifies as a democratic socialist for that. The same people call Biden a socialist — it’s just meaningless argle-bargle. Maybe having actual American politicians embrace the label and associate it with real policy proposals would be as likely to defang the term than giving wingnuts veto power over Democratic Party diversity of thought.

  152. 152.

    WhatsMyNym

    @DB11:

    Each has their own strnghts and their own appeal to different (overlapping) constituencies

    I sure hope the constituencies they are paying attention to are the ones in their district.

    ETA:  You Gotta Dance (With Who You Came To The Dance With)

  153. 153.

    Baud

    As long as we’re on the subject, my main problem with the AOC “wing” is not their ideology.  And I don’t care that the GOP uses that wing as a weapon; I don’t hold that against them any more than I held it against Hillary or Pelosi when the GOP used them in campaigning and fundraising.

    What I don’t like is their rhetoric of separateness from the rest of the people in the party.  Bernie was a great example of this with his insistence on remaining independent.  And just recently, I was put off by the separate progressive response to Biden’s non-Statute of the Union address.  And you see it in their rhetoric all the time — treating “Democrats” as an entity and a group outside themselves. I‘d much rather see them commit to the process, rather than constantly keep one foot out the door if they don’t get what they want. And if they continue to see themselves as separate from the rest of party, the rest of party will see them that way as well, and will not trust them because of it. To be a top leader in the Democratic Party, you have to be able to lead groups and factions outside of the one you control, and you don’t get to that point by berating them for having different points of view.  

  154. 154.

    rikyrah

    @Omnes Omnibus:

     

     Dunked in a bathtub?  The baptisms I  have seen involve sprinkling a tiny amount of water on a less than month old baby.

     

    Dunked in a small pool when I was six.

  155. 155.

    zhena gogolia

    @Ohio Mom:

    It’s all fine as long as the concerns of older, more constant members are not sidelined. As they sometimes are.

  157. 157.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud:

    What I don’t like is their rhetoric of separateness from the rest of the people in the party.

    Yup. Literally her first act as MoC was to join a sit-in protesting Nancy Pelosi. She said in an interview a couple of weeks ago that “progressives” (scare quotes because I’m sure I wouldn’t meet her tests) had “saved Biden’s ass” in 2020. The adolescent phrasing aside, it’s a very odd way to look at a coalition, especially since, again, if we had listened to Herself in 2020, trump would still be president. She can’t let go of the idea that Neo-liberals owe her a bent knee.

  159. 159.

    DB11

    @WhatsMyNym: I agree, unless you mean that they should only pay attention to their own district.

    The fact that AOC remains very popular in her district suggest she is paying attention, but she’s also using her platform and popularity to support like-minded progressives in other districts.

    If we’re going to come down on her for that, then we have to similarly condemn every politician with a national profile who does the same.

  160. 160.

    Old School

    I’m fascinated that of the list of representatives that vote against their party, 73 of the top 74 are Republicans.  Jared Golden (D – Maine) is the only Dem who makes that group at 12.3%.  Sylvia Garcia (D – Texas) is the next highest Democrat at 6.5%.

  161. 161.

    Starfish

    @Matt McIrvin:

    @Baud:

    I didn’t get the people complaining about corporate pride at first. Matt touched on it though– that the support seems to be superficial when the hard work has been done.

    I think what made it so deeply weird was some of the companies that updated their logos for pride. BlackRock has a pride logo on Twitter. Raytheon has a pride logo on Twitter. The one that people were complaining about today was that The Pinkertons have a pride logo on Twitter.

  162. 162.

    Betty Cracker

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: The opposite is true as well. Every time AOC is mentioned around here, there are folks who pour out of the woodwork to say she should STFU because she cost us seats or mind her manners or respect her elders. It seems like the normal push and pull of politics to me, not some new dastardly game AOC invented to torment Democrats to her right.

  163. 163.

    TriassicSands

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Progressive Punch ranks AOC as the 28th most progressive Democrat (on crucial votes)  out of more than 200. On all votes, she’s 66th (top 1/3). Reconsideration may be in order. Unless, of course, it is progressivism you disagree with.

  164. 164.

    StringOnAStick

    @Kay: My first two degrees were in geology; I have been shocked many times at my old classmates and co-workers who used to be able to read and interpret a graph but now thanks to falling into R media, believe the idea the climate change is (1) a hoax, or (2) normal variation.  The ones that are whole hog on this went to work in O&G directly or indirectly. The ones that really get me are the young earth creationist geologists; that’s some wilful cog dis.

  165. 165.

    Baud

    @Starfish:

    that the support seems to be superficial when the hard work has been done.

    It’s highly superficial, and after the fact. But it’s reflective of the success of the hard work.  I don’t see it as something to be belittled.

  166. 166.

    lowtechcyclist

    @rikyrah:

    Give me ONE Lauren Underwood over 10 Always On Cameras.

    SOMEBODY is going to be on camera at any given moment.  I guess it should be one of theirs, then, or maybe someone like Steny Hoyer if it’s one of ours.

  167. 167.

    DB11

    Now I remember why I always regret un-lurking here :)

    To engage sucks up way too much time, and to so little purpose — as Betty pointed out upthread. My futile attempts at illuminating a kinder, more generous interpretation of AOC’s motivations and actions have simply engendered even more dyspeptic condemnations. Oh well, live and (don’t) learn ;(

    I should have remembered my #1 Balloon Juice rule: Betty Cracker is [almost] always right, and on the rare occasion when she isn’t, Kay is!

  169. 169.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Betty Cracker: I wouldn’t put blog commenters, even myself, even on an almost top ten thousand ranked blog, on the same level as a Member of Congress who is also an attention-seeking-missile

  170. 170.

    James E Powell

    @Betty Cracker:

    For what it’s worth, I’m an old fart with grown children, and I like AOC and believe she’s an asset to the party. I suspect many of my fellow old farts on this blog feel the same way. Sometimes I have the time and inclination to argue with her detractors, but lately it seems pointless, so I don’t bother. No one is going to change their minds.

    This old guy agrees with you. We could use some more just like her. Maybe we already have them and just haven’t recognized them yet.

  171. 171.

    James E Powell

    @DB11:

    but at times here it seems that the crankiest voices are the most amplified (or at least the most dominant)

    I think this is true of the internet overall.

  173. 173.

    Betty Cracker

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Fair enough, but as I’m sure you’re aware, there were elected Democrats saying the same things. There was this whole flap about it after the election — Dems in swing districts blaming “the Squad” for losing ground. Sauce, geese, ganders, etc.

  174. 174.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @TriassicSands:

    Unless, of course, it is progressivism you disagree with.

    pretending to take this as a good faith comment: Progressivism is a long-term, incrementalist project. Ostentatious, narcissistic, look-at-me! vanguardism is an obstacle to that long-term project.

  175. 175.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Betty Cracker:

    There was this whole flap about it after the election — Dems in swing districts blaming “the Squad” for losing ground.

    In a private, members-only conference call that leaked, with which leaks AOC ran to the NYT to pour gasoline on the fire, accuse unnamed (of course, always) colleagues of seeing BLM as their “enemy”, implicitly present herself as the base of the party (which, again, post-2020 is simply delusional), and bizarrely single out Conor Lamb– one of those who, unlike Herself, actually flipped and held a swing district– for attack as being a bad campaigner.

  176. 176.

    schrodingers_cat

    AOC and her patron saint center the concerns of white people above everyone else’s. Specifically, the POV that economics trumps everything else. Which is contrary to the lived experience of many who are not the default setting in this society.
    That and the relentless attacks on other elected Ds.
    Case in point AOC criticized Kamala Harris recently for saying something that Joe Biden had said before to asylum seekers telling them not to make the long hazardous trek to the border to seek asylum. But she has never said anything, not one fucking word about the Vt senator and his voting record on immigration. He was used to go on Lou Dobbs before his presidential run to bash immigrants from the left and even voted against the Comprehensive Immigration Reform during Bush II that had both Ted Kennedy and McCain on board.

  178. 178.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I mean, just read this and tell me it’s not the language of adolescent narcissism detached from any political reality

    I’ve been begging the party to let me help them for two years. That’s also the damn thing of it. I’ve been trying to help. Before the election, I offered to help every single swing district Democrat with their operation. And every single one of them, but five, refused my help. And all five of the vulnerable or swing district people that I helped secured victory or are on a path to secure victory. And every single one that rejected my help is losing. And now they’re blaming us for their loss.

    I’d like to see some names here. I don’t know if Lauren Underwood or Sharice Davids or Colin Alred sought out or accepted “my help”, but I’m pretty sure Conor Lamb ‘rejected it” and he didn’t lose. I have a hard time imagining Abigail Spanberger or Mikie Sherrill or Elissa Slotkin going to AOC for campaign advice. Shorter me: I think she’s kinda full of shit. “High on her own supply” doesn’t even begin to cover it.

    So I need my colleagues to understand that we are not the enemy. And that their base is not the enemy. That the Movement for Black Lives is not the enemy, that Medicare for all is not the enemy. This isn’t even just about winning an argument. It’s that if they keep going after the wrong thing, I mean, they’re just setting up their own obsolescence.

    “the base is not their enemy”. When Biden won the South Carolina, on the strength of older African American voters, Herself called it a victory for the corporate wing of the Democratic Party. Her head is so far up her own ass it comes out her neck again.

  181. 181.

    Geminid

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Nothing bizarre about AOC singling out Pennsylvania Congressman Conor Lamb. He is expected to enter the Pennsylvania Senate race. The current leader in Democratic primary polls, Lt. Governor John Fetterman, endorsed Bernie Sanders in 2016 and 2020, and that makes him a hero to progressives. Lamb may be a real threat to Fetterman, and Ocasio-Cortez wants to dirty him up.

  183. 183.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    probably a dead thread, and I hate to link to The Hill, but…

    David Shor, a prominent data scientist who worked on then-President Obama’s 2012 campaign, identifies in his personal politics as a leftist. But he differs sharply with hard-liners in that faction when it comes to how to actually win elections….

    Shor is particularly animated on the point because, to his mind, the data is unambiguous.

    “It’s not like their strategy has never been tried!” he said with exasperation. “House candidates who embraced ‘Medicare for All’ did about 2 percentage points worse on average, when you control for all the variables. Ilhan Omar underperformed Joe Biden by something ridiculous, like 20 points!”

    The difference was actually 16 points — Biden got 80 percent of the presidential vote in Omar’s district, while the congresswoman was reelected with 64 percent — but Shor’s point stands. …

    The report’s authors said that many Democratic candidates who spoke to them believed the attempt to tar the party as socialists “hurt campaigns in states and districts with immigrant populations that fled socialist governments, including among Venezuelan, Cuban, Vietnamese and Filipino voters.

    I believe Biden also outperformed the Sainted Katie Porter by a smaller but still significant margin, and she’s one of those “the Squad” claims as Berner who won a swing district. The other is Jared Golden, who does not make a good paradigm for national politics, I think.

  184. 184.

    Darkrose

    @Glory b: That’s quite the take: she’s just popular because she’s pretty. It couldn’t be because she’s smart or because she’s in tune with her constituents.

    I swear, AOC is in the heads of some people here as much as she’s in Republican heads. I frequently disagree with her, but if I hated her as much as some of y’all seem to, I wouldn’t give her so much of my mental energy.

  185. 185.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Darkrose: hatred implies something personal. I don’t much give a shit about her personally. I suspect I wouldn’t like her if I did know her because I find self-righteousness grating. But if her narcissistic delusions (and/or dishonesty) and attention-seeking make her a useful idiot to Republicans, and I think they do, that’s what I hate.

    Basically, I wish she would grow the fuck up and pull her head out of her twitter feed.

  186. 186.

    Paul Begala's Pink Tie

    @Kay: I was just listening to a podcast about the Black Death where one of the hosts pointed out that plague supported the growth of Christianity because people were just *scared*. The argument was that proselytizers urged desperate, terrified people to buy in, just as the wave of infection was ready to ebb naturally. A religion of love turned into a religion of fear, as they put it. Nobody can retain sanity if they have to walk around scared all the time.

  187. 187.

    Glory b

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:  Yup, I don’t care about her either except to the extent that she causes a disruption. Lots of people in my community can’t afford that.

    Also, love the way she tries to throw black lives matter in the mix. Lots of people who support black lives matter are not left, don’t like Bernie, don’t like her, don’t like the squad.

  188. 188.

    Glory b

    @Darkrose: Well other new members are smart and appeal to their own constituents. She’s not the only.

    Some didn’t have cake-walk districts to run in. Some have done A LOT more legislative work, but aren’t as conventionally attractive.  Why don’t they get air time?

  189. 189.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Glory b: Rep Davis and Rep Underwood together get half the air time she does.

    I don’t care about her personally but I do care that her actions could jeopardize our  slim majorities in the House and the Senate.

  190. 190.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    @schrodingers_cat: I don’t agree. I think MTG should be held up to ordinary Republicans as a clear example of their party. They NEED to feel embarrassed about it. Right now, they are seeing distorted versions of Biden’s speeches and talking about how he can’t speak clearly, gaffes all the time, and is embarrassing us in front of the world. It doesn’t matter that that isn’t true. We need them to feel uncomfortable identifying with the GOP.

  192. 192.

    Darkrose

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: 

    “Narcissistic delusions” sure sounds like hatred, or at the very least, a level of disdain that leads you to grossly psychoanalyze someone you’ve never met. It definitely comes across as personal. The “Always On Camera” thing and the assumption that people only care about her because she’s attractive is pretty squicky too: dismissing a young woman for being young and attractive is not a good look for anyone, least of all people who claim to be progressive. It’s a nasty type of gatekeeping.

    One of the problems facing Congressional Democrats is that our leadership is aging, especially compared to the GQP. Telling young rising stars in the party to shut up and know their place is a good way to ensure that the party stagnates. Fortunately, Pelosi understands that better than a lot of folks here.

  193. 193.

    Geminid

    @Darkrose: There are a lot of young and very capable Representatives in the House Democratic Caucus. You might not know about them, but that may be because they are not after a national reputation, and are workhorses, not showhorses.

  195. 195.

    MontyTheClipArtMongoose

    @Glory b: yup.

    not a revolution — a tea party of the left.

    (same funding source, too: denominated in rubles.)

  196. 196.

    sab

    @Darkrose: I kind of like AOC. She isn’t my rep and could never be because we in Ohio are us. I just like her comments. I know she represents Staten Island which isn’t Ohio but I can live with that. My stepkids need to see people like her in the party winning, even if they aren’t local.

    When she wanders out of NYC she isn’t particularly useful but I don’t think she is harmful. Yeah she has endorsed Nina Turner, but nobody local cares. We have a strong local Progressive Democrat group that has much more influence locally. I personalky think they are idiots, but the idiocy is home grown.

    ETA  ( This is a mistake by me. Conflating Darkrose with Jim, based on nothing. What was I thinking?) :As I remember you like Nina Turner. She has legitimate issues against the White male privileged leadership of the Ohio Democratic Party.They send others out to run for difficult seats and then do less than nothing to support them. So their candidates get blown up and next time mediocre white men with problematic temperments, ethics and morals get nominated and elected.

    I personally do not see how undercutting Hillary in 2016 helped fix that problem, but it did get Nina Turner a national cable news job. Count me very very cynical

    ETA: So very sorry. Halfway through my comment I conflated you and Jim the Lierralist ( who likes Nina Turner.)

  197. 197.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Darkrose: I don’t dismiss her because she’s young and attractive— what did I say that made you say that?

     

    I dismiss her because she aggressively and arrogantly campiagns on issues and slogans that negatively affect democratic politicians, and she refuses to acknowledge that the party and the electorate are not what she seems to believe they are.

    I think she’s the wrong horse to bet on

    I can’t help but notice you don’t mention any issues in your defense of her 

  198. 198.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @sab: the Literalist despises Nina turner

    i think she’s a sign that the progressive caucus is off the fucking rails

  201. 201.

    Darkrose

    @Glory b: And lots of people do.

    Even though it was a sketch about Black Republicans, Key & Peele did have a point: the Black community is not a monolith. In particular, many younger voters of color supported Sanders. He won in California partly because young people—and Latinx young people in particular—came out to support him. The party needs to pay attention to that.

  206. 206.

    artem1s

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    On the other hand MTG apparently hasn’t even watched a religious movie or she would recall Jesus healing Lepers.

    MTG referencing the bible is pretty much on par with the Bushies. She’s perfectly willing to feign Christianity in the same way that W did.  Or more accurately, the way Darth Cheney did. She understands how to turn the weakness of adherence to a faith into a weapon. Her goal is to keep the dumb rubes in line and she should be roundly mocked for it. The deplorables won’t get it but those who have an ounce of sense will. May not turn them around on the GQP but it could keep some of them away from the polls. There is a real split going on in the party over who gets to keep the campaign funds. The NRA is fading and the big second amendment money may be going the way of big tobacco money pretty quickly. So the Fundies may have the upper hand but they like having to share even less than Wayne LaPierre.

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