Just a quick follow up to MisterMix’s earlier post, The NY Times has reported that the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) has voted to advance their plan to draft guidance on which public figures can and cannot receive communion based on their political positions. Specifically whether they do or do not support female reproductive rights, doing business ass abortion.
In May, as this plan was being circulated by the revanchist members of the USCCB, Cardinal Ladaria, SJ, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, sent them a letter with official guidance on how to proceed.
In the letter from Cardinal Ladaria, a copy of which was seen by America, he recalls that the issue of a U.S.C.C.B. document on Catholic pro-choice politicians and worthiness for reception of Communion, had been raised during the 2019-20 ad limina visits of the U.S. bishops to Pope Francis. He said the C.D.F. had then “advised that dialogue among the bishops be undertaken to preserve the unity of the episcopal conference in the face of disagreements over this controversial topic.”
Furthermore, the cardinal said, “the formulation of a national policy was suggested during the ad limina visits only if this would help the bishops to maintain unity.” He added, “The congregation notes that such a policy, given its possibly contentious nature, could have the opposite effect and become a source of discord rather than unity within the episcopate and the larger church in the United States.”
Cardinal Ladaria said the C.D.F. had then advised the U.S. bishops to take certain important steps before drafting any document, including engaging in “extensive and serene dialogue” in two stages. It said such dialogue should take place first among the bishops with the aim of reaching agreement on the doctrinal issues so as “to maintain unity” in the conference and in the church in the United States.
After doing that, it said the bishops should conduct a similar dialogue with the Catholic politicians “within their jurisdiction who adopt a pro-choice position regarding abortion legislation, euthanasia, or other moral evils, as a means of understanding the nature of their positions and their comprehension of Catholic teaching.”
Once these two stages of dialogue have been completed, Cardinal Ladaria said the bishops’ conference “would then face the difficult task of discerning the best way forward for the church in the United States to witness to the grave moral responsibility of Catholic public officials to protect human life at all stages.”
The C.D.F. letter also lays down important markers if the bishops choose to go in this direction. First, it said that if the conference decides “to formulate a national policy on worthiness for Communion,” that “such a statement would need to express a true consensus of the bishops on the matter, while observing the prerequisite that any provision of the conference in this area would respect the rights of individual ordinaries in their dioceses and the prerogatives of the Holy See.”
Cardinal Ladaria said the C.D.F. “advises” the U.S.C.C.B. that “any statement of the conference regarding Catholic political leaders would best be framed within the broad context of worthiness for the reception of Holy Communion on the part of all the faithful, rather than only one category of Catholics, reflecting their obligation to conform their lives to the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ as they prepare to receive the sacrament.”
Significantly, in a comment that challenges the U.S.C.C.B. position that abortion is “the pre-eminent” moral issue, Cardinal Ladaria told the conference’s president that “it would be misleading if such a statement were to give the impression that abortion and euthanasia alone constitute the only grave matters of Catholic moral and social teaching that demand the fullest accountability on the part of Catholics.”
Cardinal Ladaria concluded by telling Archbishop Gomez that as they draft the statement the U.S. bishops should make “every effort…to dialogue with other episcopal conferences [in other countries] as this policy is formulated in order both to learn from one another and to preserve unity in the Universal Church.”
Basically Cardinal Ladaria’s letter was a polite attempt to save the USCCB from itself. The USCCB is top heavy with senior bishops and archbishops who entered the seminary and advanced through the Church hierarchy during the papacies of John Paul II and Benedict XVI. It is far, far, far more conservative, if not outright reactionary, than the majority of American Catholics. And it is certainly far, far, far more conservative, if not reactionary, than Pope Francis. This conservatism is largely built around one issue, the one issue that Jerry Falwell, Sr hoped would prevail when he partnered with C. Everett Koop to build an alliance with the leadership of the Catholic Church in the US to create Christian religious opposition to Federal actions on civil rights. The issue he used was abortion and reproductive rights, which, until that point, was not a significant issue for evangelical Christians.
Pope Francis’s papacy, however, has been an attempt to reestablish some sense of institutional equilibrium and balance back into Catholicism after the very, very conservative papacy of John Paul II and the reactionary papacy of Benedict XVI. Especially in regard to Catholicism in the US. He has been challenged, however, by a group of traditionalist Catholic leaders whose political, social, and religious views mirror, and are in some cases more extreme than, those of the popes who selected them. Some of these clerics have been weaponized by Steve Bannon in his attempts to either overthrow Pope Francis in pursuit of his neo-fascist national populism or to create a new schism and split the Church.
The actions taken today by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops cannot be understood outside of these political activities. Steve Bannon works off of Andrew Breitbart’s only actual accurate insight: politics is down stream of culture. More aptly put, politics, like economics, and religion, is bounded and framed by culture. If you can figure out the cultural context and design the inputs to make sense within it, to not cut across it, you can be successful in your endeavors. This, of course, for the anthropologists in attendance is dependent on an understanding of culture as defined by Tyler, not Fanon. As I type this, Bannon’s financiers from Falun Gong are already providing their own slant on this in their Epoch Times website. Tomorrow, millions of free copies of their “news” paper will be delivered to older Americans all over the US to reinforce their agitprop and demonstrate that politics is down stream of culture.
While everyone has suddenly focused on President Biden as the ultimate target of today’s actions, the reality is that the most visible target of these efforts has long been Speaker Pelosi. She has long pushed all the right buttons to be the boogeywoman of the Christian right in the US just by being Nancy Pelosi. Today’s actions are not the end of this dispute and controversy, but just one important step towards advancing it. The next step is for the USCCB to vote on the measure in November, just as the 2022 midterm election cycle is beginning. And even if they do vote to put this into action, it cannot prevent any specific bishop from providing President Biden, Speaker Pelosi, or any other Catholic politician or public figure who tries to separate their faith from public policy from receiving communion. Frankly, denying them communion isn’t really the goal. The goal is to create controversy, because to quote the old professional wrestling adage, controversy creates cash. It also creates attention and political opportunity. The real fight her is not over whether President Biden or Speaker can or cannot take communion. The real fight is whether Pope Francis is legitimate if his papacy is not focused on the exceedingly conservative and revanchist pet issues of the Church’s reactionary episcopate.
Open thread.
debbie
Fixed.
Chetan Murthy
@debbie: Goddamn right. Rapists, pedophiles, and their fucking enablers.
Parfigliano
Who gives half a shit what these pedo enablers think. Fuck em.
debbie
I can’t find exactly where I heard it, but Francis has said Communion is for sinners. I hope the USCCB is overturned or just ignored.
Martin
Do they support communion for Catholics who are married to non-Catholics? What about gays or people that support gay rights? What’s the current state of the inerrancy of God’s word on these? Can the descendants of the slaves sold by the Catholic Church in Maryland get communion? Because their ancestors couldn’t.
planetjanet
@debbie: That was a lovely message.
Martin
@debbie: Ah, but it’s okay if you’re a Republican sinner.
frosty
Oh, boy, another schism!
tom
A couple I have known for decades, lifelong Catholics, left the church after years of increasing dissatisfaction with the direction the church is taking. The last straw was when a young associate pastor at their local parish rained hellfire down on LGTBQ+ people and excoriated what he considered to be liberal political positions. They complained to the head pastor, who offered only tepid criticism of the associate and did nothing else.
Catholic parishioners are leaving in increasing numbers, and the actions by the USCCB will only accelerate that process.
Adam L Silverman
@frosty: He knows what he did!
debbie
@planetjanet:
Yes, I found it moving, and I’m not Catholic.
Darkrose
For the USCCB to think that they have anything remotely resembling moral authority shows a monumental lack of self-awareness.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I loathe these people
ETA: Remember when Catholic politicians had to assure voters that they were free to make their own decisions?
Seriously
I am just going to guess that there are no proposed punishments for catholics who advocate for capital punishment, bombing brown people, etc.
Chetan Murthy
Huh.
MagdaInBlack
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I was just thinking about that myself. Yes, I remember.
Adam L Silverman
@Seriously: No there are not. And that hypocrisy has been pointed out repeatedly.
MagdaInBlack
Interesting to me to see our favorite agent of chaos, Steve Bannon, involved.
Frankensteinbeck
I disagree. The goal is to be mean, hateful shits. That’s it. Top to bottom. The bishops want to be mean to sluts and anybody who is on the sluts’ side, and they are venting their hate, and it has no more purpose. Any political scheming involved is a tool to support his venting of hate, not a goal this hate is a tool towards.
Another Scott
Something something rule in Hell something something…
Cheers,
Scott.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
2004 John Kerry has entered the chat.
Quiltingfool
When I was a church-goer, I would ignore the stupid stuff (evolution was roundly damned, as an example of stupid) and focus on sermons that encouraged me to be a better person. To practice the teachings of Christ. To reflect on my behavior and attitudes and make course corrections was my main goal of attending church.
I don’t go to church anymore, and am not at all fond of organized religion. I do recognize that many people find comfort and solace in church, more power to them. I think this action by the Bishops will upset people who seek the church for solace, self reflection, and communion with God. They don’t want the controversy.
Another Scott
@Quiltingfool: My MIL’s first husband died in a bomber crash in WWII. She married again around 15 years later, but somehow their marriage wasn’t good enough for the Catholic Church and she was denied the Eucharist forever after. It hurt her.
The rituals are important for many, many people. Denying them is unforgivable in their own terms.
Did Jesus say that Peter and Judas couldn’t eat at the Last Supper??
As Adam notes, this is all about politics. The US Catholic Church leadership has attached itself to the GQP, and has since the mid-1970s.
Biden’s faith is very important to him. I hope he continues to find a way to practice it as he sees fit.
Cheers,
Scott.
Morzer
Southern Baptists are facing similar problem to Catholics in that the young are not at all impressed by the homophobic, sexually abusive, conservative behavior of their elders – and they are declining to stay with a church whose hierarchy espouses such positions. Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of crooked, racist, bigoted perverts and grifters.
Kathleen
@MagdaInBlack: I think he’s a “devout Catholic”. Seriously.
Kristine
My dad converted to Catholicism to marry his first wife. My mom was RC, but she and Dad couldn’t marry within the church even though one reason Dad and first wife divorced was because she didn’t want children (I always thought that mattered, but apparently not).
Having their marriage recognized by the Church was important to Mom, so every so often she and Dad would look into it. During one meeting, the priest came out and told them “you don’t have any money, so you’ll have to wait until (first wife) dies.” And that’s what they wound up doing.
Catholic grade school also provided quite the in-depth education in the power money exerted over the Church. Hard to feel much regard for the institution after that.
Kathleen
I’ll just drop this item about scandal involving People of Praise, the group Amy Coney Barrett has been associated with:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2021/06/11/people-praise-barrett-sexual-misconduct/
Kathleen
Has anyone on the thread seen Spotlight? Outstanding film
Morzer
@Kathleen: It’s almost as if the GOP chose their SCOTUS justices for their involvement in sexual abuse. (Howdy, Clarence and Brett!)
Chetan Murthy
@Kathleen: I knew about the scandal (was living in Boston at the time) but hadn’t watched the movie. [ETA: until less than a year ago, when I learned Marty Baron was retiring.] Wow, it’s *gripping*, and with almost no action sequences, no razzle-dazzle. Just plain people in rooms talking to each other, then going other meetings, talking to other people. The subject matter, and the way it is discussed, is what makes it gripping.
Also: wow, if Marty Baron only did half the stuff that Liev Schrieber did in the film, he’s a fricken’ superhero.
MagdaInBlack
@Kathleen: Considering the other “devout” Catholics we know of, I’m not surprised.
Adam L Silverman
@Morzer: They were chosen by Leonard Leo who is himself a revanchist Catholic, lay member of Opus Dei, and a consigliere to the most conservative and revanchist members of the USCCB.
dnfree
@Kathleen: yes. Spotlight is an excellent film, wherein it took great courage for even reporters to take on the Catholic Church in Boston.
Kathleen
@Morzer: Really!
Kathleen
@MagdaInBlack: I’ll bet he gets Communion twice.
Kathleen
@Chetan Murthy: The movie was riveting. I have to give Baron credit for how he navigated through that minefield. Did you know Pierre Omidyar was one of the producers?
Morzer
@Kathleen:
With cheese fries, if his girth is anything to go by!
KSinMA
debbie:
“Pope Francis, who has explicitly identified the United States as the source of opposition to his pontificate, preached this month that communion ‘is not the reward of saints, but the bread of sinners.’”
Nicely put.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/world/europe/biden-vatican-communion-abortion.html?searchResultPosition=1
Lapassionara
@Adam L Silverman: it is interesting to me that in my lifetime, the U.S. has gone from being worried about electing a catholic to the presidency (Kennedy) to having a bunch of conservative Catholics as Supreme Court justices.
phdesmond
their kind of thinking would lead changes in the voting law, not just in the rules governing who can take communion. why should sinners be allowed to cast ballots?
Kathleen
@Adam L Silverman: You may have already seen this article from the National Catholic Reporter about right wing billionaire Catholics who want to establish theocracy. National Catholic Reporter has always been a pretty liberal Catholic publication. I read it back in the 60’s when I was in Catholic high school. Deux:https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/wealthy-conservative-catholics-are-new-us-magisterium
Quiltingfool
@Morzer: @Morzer:
Raised in the Southern Baptist Church – and you are so right.
We went to church every Sunday. As a child, I liked Sunday School but despised the church service. I am old, so back in the day there wasn’t a “Children Service,” and boy howdy, you better sit quietly, or you’d get The Look (and The Look meant you were in Big Trouble). I was so glad the church had beautiful stained glass windows, as I spent the whole time studying them!
My mother’s best friend was Catholic; one Sunday I attended Mass with them. Well, I was ready to be a Catholic – first of all, you got to stand and kneel, great for wiggly kids, the priest spoke in Latin, no big deal, I didn’t understand much of what a Baptist preacher said, no difference to me AND it was over much faster than a Baptist sermon. The friend’s son squashed my enthusiasm when he told me catechism class was on Saturday morning, during cartoon time! So, the Catholic Church lost a potential member, lol! Probably for the best, though. I was a crappy Baptist, doubtful I’d have been a better Catholic!
NotMax
@Morzer
“Too bland. Do these wafers come in chocolate chip?”
Chetan Murthy
@Kathleen:
Huh. I did not. I cannot say enough good things about that movie. And obviously, every such good thing, is really a good thing about the Spotlight team. They started the righting of a monstrous injustice, stopped the commission of abominations that would have gone on and on and on and on. Those injustices continue, I’m sure, but at least, there are lots of places where they no longer do. The closing credits [I’m sure you know what I mean] are in themselves gripping.
And all of this, in a not-at-all-thrilling way. I emerged with a profound sense of disquiet. Really uneasy. B/c I knew that, nearly a generation after the initial discoveries, we continue to discover men, doing their dirty deeds, the way men do them, with cover from religious authorities, whether local, national, or international.
Kathleen
@Morzer: Ha!!! He is so not the cover boy for “Perfect Aryan Specimen Monthly”.
Adam L Silverman
@Lapassionara: There was a concerted effort to do this. Leonard Leo has led it and continues to do so. The idea was not to just put someone on the court who happened to be Catholic, but to find Catholics in the mold of Leo on the court. To use the court to impose Leo’s understanding of Catholic theology, doctrine, and dogma on the US by reading it into the constitution. This is why Sotomayor really doesn’t count because she’s the wrong type of Catholic.
Whether it is the USCCB or Leo’s catspaws on the court, once they have purified their faith, they will then turn on each other. You’re starting to see that with Alito. He’s furious that those chosen to provide him with support through numbers on the Supreme Court aren’t reliably doing so and, as a result, he’s acting out in both his concurrences and dissents, as well as in real life as well: speeches, presentations, symposium, etc.
Hoodie
@Frankensteinbeck: Both are true. A lot of church higher ups I’ve met are preening jackasses, parading around in silly costumes and spouting antiquarian language. Sure, they’re hateful, but what differentiates these churchmen is that they are haters who use hate as a tool to control other haters. After all, hate arises from a lack of control and the hater seeks nothing but to establish control, like a snake consuming its own tail. Like Trump and GOP politicians, they know that there is a willingly manipulatable core of the “faithful” – angry white males and self-loathing women – who consume fear about lack of control about things like struggling to repress urges that spoil their self image and/or struggling to make others conform to behavior that validates their self image. Like Trumpist pols, these churchmen mouth things that are complete bullshit simply to spark division because it’s just a dinner bell for a feast that will feed their need for control, i.e., by creating controversy, they exercise control and become important. To analogize, when he was president, Trump could not stand to go a day without creating some sort of controversy because he was (and probably still is) addicted to control of the news cycle. These meddlesome priests are no different.
kindness
I wonder what Pope Francis’ response will be to this challenge to his position as Pope? I don’t care so much about the public response. I’d be more interested on the private one that will no doubt go out.
Kathleen
@Chetan Murthy: I was blown away by the credits. I think I saw the movie 3 times in the theater and any time it was on TV. I went to Catholic schools in the 50’s, 60’s and early 70’s (kindergarten through college) and I never had a clue about what was going on (I was very sheltered). I absolutely loved many of the nuns and lay teachers who taught me so I guess on balance I was very fortunate.
dexwood
The fucking bread is stale.The President can get better toast anyday. Fuck the bishops. It’s always The Bishops.
Morzer
@Kathleen: To be fair, he IS the double-page spread perfect Aryan specimen….
Adam L Silverman
@Kathleen: I have. I keep track of this stuff. The problem, as I’ve written here many times, is that if these people get what they want, they’ll eventually turn on themselves. The revanchist Catholics, the Evangelicals, and Latter Day Saints will first turn on the non-Christians that make common cause: orthodox and ultra-orthodox Jews, traditionalist Hindus. Once they’re purge, the revanchist Catholics and Evangelicals will turn on the Latter Day Saints, because they’re not really Christians. Then the revanchist Catholics and Evangelicals will turn on each other. Whoever wins that will then turn on themselves in pursuit of ever greater internal purity. And then whoever wins can rule over the ruins they’ve created.
Chetan Murthy
@Kathleen: My first girlfriend was raised Catholic in NYC, went to Catholic schools until college, and was left-handed. She had …. interesting stories of the nuns. Sigh. Indeed, you were lucky.
Kathleen
@Adam L Silverman: WaPo has also been covering the travails of the Southern Baptists who, like the Catholics, are dealing with as you said their own ideological purity purges and sexual abuse cover ups.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Chetan Murthy: I didn’t know for years that my wife is naturally left handed. In her case it wasn’t Catholic school, but her step mom.
Adam L Silverman
@kindness: He will continue to do what he’s been doing. He will proceed cautiously and carefully in public. He’ll continue to create bishops in his image. If he moves too forcefully he’ll lead to a split in the Church, which will prevent him from actually fixing the problems that have developed in it as a result of the rise of neo-fascist reaction to liberal democracy over the past 40 plus years.
Lapassionara
@Adam L Silverman: I understand. It is the pits, having people like him calling the shots.
Morzer
@Kathleen: Vox has a rather a good article on the topic:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/22538281/southern-baptist-convention-ed-litton-sex-abuse-critical-race-theory
Adam L Silverman
@Kathleen: Despite the outcome of the recent election for the new SBA president, then reactionaries are going to ultimately win that fight.
Kathleen
@Chetan Murthy: Yes I was. I railed against the rules in high school and did have one wacko nun but I wouldn’t have traded my all girl Catholic high school education for anything. I thought it was more academically rigorous than the college I attended.
NotMax
@Morzer
If it was good enough for Goering….
J R in WV
@Martin:
And of those slaves held and sold by the Church, all the female slaves were almost certainly raped every night! Just like the children of today, being abused is part of being Catholic.
dnfree
@Chetan Murthy: when my husband’s Catholic school friends get together, “nun stories” are always a big feature. Some of their punishments would definitely be called abusive these days.
ETA that he is left-handed, and the nuns allowed him to write with his left hand but he had to tilt the paper the same direction as the other students. So he’s one of those left-handers who writes above the line with a cramped hand.
J R in WV
@Frankensteinbeck:
Fixed this for you. Never forget that they hate the LGBTQ community far more than mere slutty women.
Honus
@Seriously: or getting divorced. Lets not forget that.
Also, I’m an old enough catholic to remember that the big difference between catholics and protestants (like Mr. Falwell) was that protestants coud use birth control.
Morzer
@NotMax: “Mein Fuhrer, does this chin make me look fat?”
Honus
@Frankensteinbeck: correct. And they consider all women sluts. That’s why clergy can’t marry.
Chetan Murthy
@Honus: My English teacher, Mr. Manning:
Q: Are you Baptist?
A: No, I drink in public!
[He’d finish that off by reaching into a cupboard for a bottle of cough syrup and miming taking a swig.]
NotMax
@Morzer
“Ach, if only you could give one of them to Himmler.”
Anotherlurker
@dnfree: I went thru 12 years of catholic “education”.
One priest cornered me , an 8th grader in gym class, grabbed my junk and told me that I needed to come to the rectory to be fitted for a jock. When I didn’t show up, he embarked on a smiling, passive aggressive campaign. For the 5 years remaining in that establishment, this Pedophile asshole never missed an opportunity to inform me that I was flirting with disaster by ignoring the requests of a “man of god and an authority figure”. It left an impression on me and my subsequent life. Not a good or constructive one.
The nuns could me more blatantly violent. One notable bully, the 2nd grade teacher, grabbed my brother by the ears and slammed his head on his desk. His crime? Talking in class. He was permanently deafened in his right ear.
The Diocese of Rockville Center is still fending off lawsuits regarding this Pedophile Priest.
The nuns were Irish coal miner’s daughters from Scranton, Pa.
For me and others, catholic education was an invite to child abuse.
J R in WV
And I well remember the hurrah over J F Kennedy, and whether he would be controlled by the then Pope. He promised in several speeches that he would be an American President, not a Catholic President. And now we have our second Catholic President, and no one ever asked Joe Biden if he would obey Pope Frank (the first Pope in history I have a grain of respect for!) or the constitution. That’s a big change.
I would hope that if Biden is actually prevented from communion in the Catholic church, that he will attend an Episcopal church, where he will most assuredly be allowed to partake in communion. I don’t know how many Catholics respect the Episcopal church, but from my perspective, they’re quite similar to the Catholics, only improved by being more American in nature.
I’m not a church goer at all, but i have attended Christmas Eve service at a close friend’s Episcopal church, and her service was very sweet. I suspect we were the only attendees who didn’t take communion that evening. I hope she wasn’t offended, I think not.
Quiltingfool
@Adam L Silverman: I agree. All these religious folk who want a theocracy aren’t thinking things through. They must think their brand of religion will be the one that rules. I would suggest they study European history with emphasis on religious wars; and then think about why the Founding Fathers put freedom of religion in the 1st Amendment.
NotMax
@J R in WV
Same thing with Al Smith. But much more effective as a stain in 1928 than 1960.
Villago Delenda Est
Oh, just fuck these pedophilia enabling assholes.
Steve in the ATL
@J R in WV: who doesn’t love the episcopal church? Give us grief about a divorce, we behead the chick and start a new religion.
Villago Delenda Est
@Steve in the ATL:
Hank’s solution to EVERYTHING!
Another Scott
(Reference – A Portland cop was indicted so the “crowd control team” he worked on resigned in protest.)
Cheers,
Scott.
NotMax
@Villago Delenda Est
‘Twas a happy fate for Hank the Eighth and Anne Boleyn
Love is always lovely in the end
:)
ian
@NotMax: As well as John Fremont in 1856.
Another Scott
Yet more news from Texas… TexasTribune:
Maybe he’ll outlaw Thursday next. Texans can never trust Thursday, you know.
Cheers,
Scott.
Nettoyeur
@J R in WV: why? When do many of their priests are gay….
Morzer
@Another Scott: You have to wonder just how long Texas is going to let itself be abused by Abbott, Paxton and the rest of the creepy fascist crew down there.
RaflW
Heaven forbid that the US Catholic Bishops examine the grave moral responsibility of public officials to protect human life from gun deaths.
They want to take away communion from Biden, but wouldn’t dare do the same for a pro-2A Catholic pol.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
1. The world would be better off without the Abrahamic religions.
2. Christianity is genuinely stupid.
3. Wojtyla and Ratzinger were complete c***s.
Nettoyeur
@J R in WV: The Episcopal Church—which is in fact the Anglican Church in the US– is to first order the Catholic Church minus papal infallibility and most of the sexual hypocrisy (they aren’t keen on divorce). High Anglicanism in particular is Catholicism with a better early Christian vibe, wine at Communion, and much better music. I hope that if the Catholic reprobates carry out those threat, Biden and millions like him will switch. The Anglicans need more recruits.
frosty
@J R in WV:
We attended an Episcopal church when we were raising our kids. I never took communion since I’d never been baptized and wasn’t about to. The priest (pastor?) gave me a blessing instead which was nice.
Rick Taylor
@frosty:
Thanks! A friend of mine told me about that joke decades ago, and I was never able to find the source of it until I read your post.
Emo Phillips stand up comedian youtube link
Morzer
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Given that Ratzinger is still living with the man most observers suspect of being his long-term boyfriend, let’s just say that he had no right to throw the first stone at gay people…. as for JP II, well, he fought with monsters and became one.
Morzer
@Nettoyeur: The Anglicans have their own problems, many of which are caused by thoroughly bigoted and corrupt Anglican churches in Africa. They’ve held the more liberal and decent churches in the US and Britain back by threatening to walk out and start their own shadow Anglican communion.
Nettoyeur
@J R in WV: The Episcopal Church—which is in fact the Anglican Church in the US– is to first order the Catholic Church minus papal infallibility and most of the sexual hypocrisy (they aren’t keen on divorce). High Anglicanism in particular is Catholicism with a better early Christian vibe, wine at Communion, and much better music. I hope that if the Catholic reprobates carry out those threat, Biden and millions like him will switch. The Anglicans need more recruits.
Urban Suburbanite
@Adam L Silverman: Did Bannon really have that much success with his attempts at getting into Catholic fascism? From what I’ve read on that conglomeration of whiskey sweats and dirty shirts, he’s always seemed obsessed with playing kingmaker and getting paid. And since he’s nowhere near the genius he believes he is, has just gone from one overhyped failure to another.
And I found this profile on Leo. It gets into conspiracy land by the end, but I’m not sure if that’s a failure of writing or just that these people are shady as hell: https://gregolear.substack.com/p/leo-the-cancer
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: ratzinger stepped aside.
still wonder what happens if he outlives francis….
Urban Suburbanite
@Another Scott:
Sort of. They resigned from the unit sent to beat on reporters and protesters, but they’re still police officers.
Another Scott
@Urban Suburbanite: Thanks for the correction. I suspected as much when I was writing the comment, but didn’t check for the details.
Cheers,
Scott.
Morzer
@MontyTheClipArtMongoose:
Not much, given his mental decline. Besides, there are far too many ambitious cardinals for him to be welcomed back to the position that all of them covet.
randy khan
I’m not sure I’d characterize Cardinal Ladaria’s letter as polite. It’s hard to read it without getting the impression that what he really was saying was that the US bishops had better not do what they are planning on doing.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Morzer: He’s 94 and apparently can no longer speak.
Another Scott
OpenThread? Liz Dye at Wonkette – Nunes cow family business employee depositions and stuff:
Yowza.
There’s apparently an attorney named “Jennifer” (no last name, because lawyers frequently go by their first and only name) who will be joining the team…
Oh man!!
Cheers,
Scott.
Ruckus
@Darkrose:
When you think the world revolves around the stick you stuck up your own ass, self awareness is not involved.
And they are convinced that the world revolves around only them.
Ruckus
@Kristine:
I’m not Catholic but I attended a Catholic, all boys trade school, freshman HS yr. That was a year too long. One day we had to assemble for the cardinal’s arrival. This is 1962 and he rode up in a chauffeur driven Rolls Royce, wore silk robes and had enough gold and very expensive jeweled rings on to pay the debt of most any 3rd world nation. I was pretty sure before then that the entire hierarchy of the church was in it for the power and money but that moment clinched it 100%.
Sloane Ranger
It’s not just nuns or Catholic schools in general. I went to a British state Primary school in the early 60’s and they tried to make me write with my right hand. My parents didn’t say anything because this was what had always happened with naturally left handed people.
I was fortunate as the District Nurse visited quite early in my first term, noticed what was happening and told my parents and teachers that recent research supported letting people write with whichever hand they preferred. After that my teachers stopped trying to make me use my right hand. By the end of Primary school I had developed the technique of having the paper lying longwise and writing downwards, which I still use today.
Mary G
My mom and dad went to see a production of “The King and I” with Yul Brynner in Chicago, each sitting at the end of a group of friends, next to each other, total strangers, and fell in love, or maybe obsession, at first glance. They got married and had me. The only problem was that my dad was a Jesuit priest from an extreme Catholic family and they could not accept it. This is why I live in California today. I have zero respect or admiration for that institution and hope they have to all go bankrupt to compensate their victims.
Geminid
So who is actually more “pro-life,” these Catholic bishops or Joe Biden? Author D.J. McGuire says Biden is, in his September 2020 Bearing Drift article “Why Biden is the Pro-Life Candidate.”
McGuire compares the lower abortion rates during the Clinton and Obama administrations to the higher rates during Republican administrations He reviews studies showing the a reversal of Roe v.Wade would result in as little as a 4% decline in abortions, and then cites the findings of Wm. Robert Johnston, researcher for the Global Life Campaign, that 25-40% of abortions are for economic reasons. McGuire then points out that:
NorthLeft12
As a former Catholic and now a born again atheist, it’s hypocritical shit like this that made leaving the church easy.
Fun fact: My three siblings and even my father gave up on the church also.
dnfree
@Nettoyeur: my brother married an Episcopalian. Because he had been baptized a Methodist, he had to be rebaptized to join the church. A Catholic would have been accepted without requiring a new baptism.
One of our daughters married a Greek Orthodox man. She did not have to be re-baptized. Her UCC baptism was okay. So to me, it appears the Orthodox were more accepting of other branches of Christianity than the Episcopalians.
BOWTIEJACK
“Are you a fallen away Catholic?”
“No, I jumped.”
Wag
@dnfree: The split between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church occurred much longer ago and without as much acrimony as the Catholic/Protestant split.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@dnfree: also, better headwear.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Wag: “as much” is doing a heavy lift.
we just had sectarian catholic-orthodox battle between croats & serbs 25 years ago.
LongHairedWeirdo
It’s funny how things change. The Republican Party pushed how Kennedy wasn’t a safe President because he’d take marching orders from the Vatican.
It’s also amazing how much the Catholic church cares about abortion, and not, e.g., the killing of unarmed civilians by cops, starting pointless, unjust[1] wars, refusal to try to protect the sick, infirm, and elderly, executions, etc.. One might think that the rules are being applied unevenly.
dnfree
@Wag: Methodism was a split from the Anglican Church in England. I couldn’t believe they thought Methodists were further from them theologically than Catholics.
Uncle Cosmo
Never spent a day in parochial school (Dad said, why should I pay the Church when public schools are free?) but spent 4 years of Saturday mornings in classes of the Contradictions of Catholic Dogma, i.e., Confraternity of Christian Doctrine.
My one encounter with a nun occurred one spring Saturday afternoon of that first year, when the CCD classes were rehearsing for the next day’s First Holy Communion. At one point I failed to notice that my location required that I lead one file of kids into a pew, and everything stopped – until my head exploded in pain as what felt like a 2×4 slammed into the back of my skull. I spun around and there stood Sister Sadistica, her wimpled face a mask of fury, and she snarled, Stoopeed! (I gathered she was a Polish refugee & that was about the extent of her English.) Not the most heartwarming introduction to the female vocations of the Church.
Three years later, 6 weeks after Confirmation, I informed my parents I wasn’t going to church because I didn’t believe in it. And never looked back.
And FTR, the “Christian Democratic Parties” of postwar Europe were effectively the Catholic Falange. The Holy See loved itself some Franco…
Uncle Cosmo
Wojtyla was a product of his place and time – the Church felt it had the right to run Poland for its own benefit, Poles hated the Russians for having ruled them for a couple hundred years, the Holy See hated the Communists because they were godless… He actually had some consistency in his positions, e.g., he consistently opposed capital punishment.
OTOH Ratzo (aka Benedict-Arnold XVI) was a Hitler Youth. Give me a child till he is seven years old, said St Ignatius Loyola, and I will show you the man. And horribile dictu, the Nazi stink never seems to have worn off.
TriassicSands
A late, final thought.
Only relatively recently have I come to fully understand that the primary obligation of American Christians is not to follow Jesus’ example in their daily lives, but rather to impose their own religious beliefs on everyone else backed by the force of law. The problem American Catholic bishops have with Biden (and Pelosi) is not that they don’t follow the teachings of the Church, but that they aren’t using their positions of political power to force every American to conform to the version of Christianity that the bishops themselves have adopted.
The dominant forms of Christianity in the U.S. are utterly incompatible with a free society.
LiminalOwl
@Steve in the ATL: *sigh* The new religion (except it wasn’t entirely) was started sothat he could divorce the previous wife. And then he beheaded the -next- one (yes, the one he married after the divorce), a few years later.
And some of us, including tjis nitpicking bird, don’t consider that behavior an improvement. Nor the union of church and state that the Anglican churches have mostly idealized ever since.
(More seriously… while the revanchist Catholics might be the worst, at least in areas where the Catholic Church is the most powerful—power corrupts, etc.—all religions/sects/denomination$ that I know of, and for that matter plenty of non-religious groups with power, do this shit. And, while I absolutely do not want to minimize the suffering caused nor to invalidate the victims in any way, most of those groups do some good too. Might I beg for a little less polarized thinking around here?)
LiminalOwl
@Nettoyeur: Because they’ve been indoctrinated to hate and fear themselves?
LiminalOwl
@LiminalOwl: (too late to edit, but I wanted to change that last sentence. Yes, I can be as self-righteous as anybody. I apologize for that.)
LiminalOwl
@Geminid: Lovely. Thank you.