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You are here: Home / Politics / Information Warfare / Caution On The Guardian Scoop

Caution On The Guardian Scoop

by Cheryl Rofer|  July 15, 20216:02 pm| 124 Comments

This post is in: Information Warfare, Russia

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The Guardian today has a document that may be from the uppermost reaches of the Russian government and purports to describe a meeting of Vladimir Putin’s security council in closed session.

The meeting was on January 22, 2016, and in it, Putin gave instructions to his spy agencies to support Donald Trump’s run for the presidency of the US.

Caution is due to these claims. The Guardian article itself is cautious, although it notes that Guardian reporters have validated the document to a limited degree. A meeting of the security council took place on that day. Experts have looked at the document and find it not obviously fraudulent.

There is a brief psychological assessment of Trump, who is described as an “impulsive, mentally unstable and unbalanced individual who suffers from an inferiority complex”.

There is also apparent confirmation that the Kremlin possesses kompromat, or potentially compromising material, on the future president, collected – the document says – from Trump’s earlier “non-official visits to Russian Federation territory”.

The paper refers to “certain events” that happened during Trump’s trips to Moscow. Security council members are invited to find details in appendix five, at paragraph five, the document states. It is unclear what the appendix contains.

“It is acutely necessary to use all possible force to facilitate his [Trump’s] election to the post of US president,” the paper says.

This document fits quite snugly into a narrative about Russian interference in the 2016 election. That could mean that, whether or not the material in it is true, it is part of a Russian disinformation operation.

Others on Twitter are urging caution.

Curious how many other media outlets got the Kremlin “leaked” document and decided not to publish stories about it before Guardian decided to publish

— Kim Zetter (@KimZetter) July 15, 2021

This whole thread. But, yeah, a lot very good reasons to think this is an elaborate forgery. More could come out that changes that, but it's imo a much better working assumption than it being real. https://t.co/PufVIRt6mr

— Pwn All The Things (@pwnallthethings) July 15, 2021

Agree w/ @RidT on this Guardian reporting on Russian plans for the former President. This is far too convenient & reeks of #disinfo operation. It could all be individually or collectively true and at the same time planted & fake. So in the meantime, I’m taking this approach: https://t.co/0ZMSUfeJ9I pic.twitter.com/9vNSASnEB9

— Chris Krebs (@C_C_Krebs) July 15, 2021

What is the most preferable and scientific way to distinguish between fake and authentic text? Language. @guardian has posted small extract from the Kremlin document presumed to be authentic. I have counted 4 linguistic errors and a couple of dubious instances of word usage. /1 https://t.co/Z5vWrjErww pic.twitter.com/S5QVMG4ovz

— Иван Ткачев (@IvanTkachev1) July 15, 2021

That last thread doesn’t necessarily prove it’s a forgery. People mess up their writing in all languages.

There’s nothing definitive about the authenticity of the documents or whether they’re fakes. The Guardian might make more information available about how they got them, which could point to disinformation motives.

I suspect this one never will be fully clear by itself. It will be another case of people believing what they want to.

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Reader Interactions

124Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    July 15, 2021 at 6:05 pm

    People mess up their writing in all languages.

    Particularly when they are relying on autocorrect.

  2. 2.

    Baud

    July 15, 2021 at 6:06 pm

    And kudos to us for not acting like TFG supporters in automatically believing everything that that might support our world-view.

  3. 3.

    James E Powell

    July 15, 2021 at 6:07 pm

    @Baud:

    We – and Dan Rather – learned our lesson.

  4. 4.

    Adam L Silverman

    July 15, 2021 at 6:09 pm

    Cheryl and I are in complete agreement on this. So I’m probably not doing a separate post. Please handle your grief in a responsible manner.

  5. 5.

    rikyrah

    July 15, 2021 at 6:10 pm

    Uh huh ?

    Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) tweeted at 1:20 PM on Thu, Jul 15, 2021:
    When we say that Milley was worried that Trump might launch a coup we should remember that HE DID LAUNCH A COUP.  Coup has an ambiguous meaning but he tried both through Congress and an extralegal mob to overturn the election and stay in power in defiance of the constitution.
    (https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1415738131677130755?s=03)

  6. 6.

    Baud

    July 15, 2021 at 6:10 pm

    @James E Powell:

    learned our lesson.

    And, ultimately, isn’t that what separates us from them?

  7. 7.

    b1narys3rf

    July 15, 2021 at 6:11 pm

    I find it extremely difficult to believe the Kremlin would ever keep traditionally written records of such meetings and orders to begin with.

    That being said, the substance of what’s here is so accurate to what is believed true for years that it would seem to be pointless as a forgery anyway.

  8. 8.

    MattF

    July 15, 2021 at 6:12 pm

    I guess some people think Putin is their pal… But, seriously, what difference would it make if it were all true? Would US policy be any different? Is there something hidden here?

  9. 9.

    Omnes Omnibus

    July 15, 2021 at 6:13 pm

    @Baud: That, and personal hygiene.

  10. 10.

    James E Powell

    July 15, 2021 at 6:15 pm

    @b1narys3rf:

    I find it extremely difficult to believe the Kremlin would ever keep traditionally written records of such meetings and orders to begin with.

    Right.

  11. 11.

    Elizabelle

    July 15, 2021 at 6:15 pm

    Thank you Cheryl (and Adam).

    At some point, I would be interested in revisiting the Steele Dossier. What panned out, and what did not? Still lots of shoes to drop there.

    Cheryl and Adam: any guess on when we the public might see a lot more of the Mueller report??

  12. 12.

    Roger Moore

    July 15, 2021 at 6:16 pm

    It is possible, even easy, to believe both that the Russian government helped Trump to get elected and that this document is fake. I would not put much faith at all in superficial stuff like spelling and grammatical errors. They could be honest mistakes in a real document, the result of an unsophisticated forgery, or the result of some nefarious scheme to discredit anyone foolish enough to believe the document. Without knowing the provenance of the document, we have no hope of knowing which.

  13. 13.

    Roger Moore

    July 15, 2021 at 6:18 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: ​
     

    Please handle your grief in a responsible manner.

    We demand pet pics as compensation for our pain and suffering.

  14. 14.

    MisterForkbeard

    July 15, 2021 at 6:18 pm

    @b1narys3rf: I think the overall goal is sort of like Bush’s airforce documents that booted Dan Rather in the face – the documents themselves are forgeries, even if they reflect true information.

    This has a way of discrediting true information. That’s my guess what’s going on here, until we get better visibility on the provenance of the docs.

  15. 15.

    HypersphericalCow

    July 15, 2021 at 6:18 pm

    Yeah, this hit the “too good to be true” gauge to not exactly the max, but pretty high.

  16. 16.

    Gin & Tonic

    July 15, 2021 at 6:19 pm

    @b1narys3rf: 

    I find it extremely difficult to believe the Kremlin would ever keep traditionally written records of such meetings and orders to begin with.

    Russians document everything. If there was a meeting (which is publicly known to have taken place) then there are written minutes of that meeting. Guaranteed.

    Now, is the document The Guardian allegedly has, those minutes? That’s the real question.

  17. 17.

    b1narys3rf

    July 15, 2021 at 6:20 pm

    @James E Powell: fantastic clip as always but the Russians MIGHT be a little more advanced in this than the Wire gang.

    Or is that double reverse disillusioned naiveté?

  18. 18.

    Gin & Tonic

    July 15, 2021 at 6:21 pm

    @Roger Moore: Have we ever seen a pic of Adam’s alleged dogs?

  19. 19.

    OzarkHillbilly

    July 15, 2021 at 6:22 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Speak for yourself.

  20. 20.

    zhena gogolia

    July 15, 2021 at 6:22 pm

    @b1narys3rf:

    All that stuff Michael Cohen told us about how TFG would never give an order in so many words is doubly true about Vladimir Vladimirovich.

  21. 21.

    b1narys3rf

    July 15, 2021 at 6:23 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: if that’s so then they’re far worse at this than I thought. Which makes me oddly hopeful because one interesting point the Guardian article brought up in a subtle way is that Putin’s paranoia helped get him and his oligarch gang in this fix where their marriage to international White Supremacism may prove their undoing and fast instead of their triumph.

  22. 22.

    Cheryl Rofer

    July 15, 2021 at 6:24 pm

    @Elizabelle: For a while, I was keeping track of the Steele dossier claims that way and then gave up on it. It’s raw intelligence, so some of it was right, some was sorta right, some was wrong, and some we’ll probably never know.

    I had a similar feeling about this report when I saw it this morning – document seems to have been around for a while, unclear provenance, fits into a lot of pre-existing narratives.

    There’s never going to be one magic document that unlocks everything. Mueller had his chance at a thorough investigation and flubbed it. We need to know more about why. I doubt we’ll learn a whole lot more as redactions in his report are unmasked.

  23. 23.

    zhena gogolia

    July 15, 2021 at 6:24 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Don’t you think the documentation would be vague?

  24. 24.

    Barbara

    July 15, 2021 at 6:24 pm

    Why does it matter?  Putin’s interference is an outrage but the much bigger outrage is that an American president was willing to sell all of us out to foreign bidders.

  25. 25.

    zhena gogolia

    July 15, 2021 at 6:24 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Did he flub it or were his hands tied?

  26. 26.

    Cheryl Rofer

    July 15, 2021 at 6:25 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Lol, they document everything AND stamp it with a seal.

  27. 27.

    Cheryl Rofer

    July 15, 2021 at 6:26 pm

    @zhena gogolia: That’s what we need to know.

  28. 28.

    Elizabelle

    July 15, 2021 at 6:27 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Mueller had his chance at a thorough investigation and flubbed it. We need to know more about why.

    I wonder if AG Garland and his crew will be able to find out more about the DOJ’s misdoings there.  Or perhaps other investigators, throughout the government/intelligence community.

  29. 29.

    quakerinabasement

    July 15, 2021 at 6:27 pm

    This changes nothing. We ALWAYS knew the pee pee tape was real.

  30. 30.

    Gin & Tonic

    July 15, 2021 at 6:28 pm

    @zhena gogolia: I believe there’s someone who writes down everything that’s said and types it up, with a rubber stamp and signature.

  31. 31.

    quakerinabasement

    July 15, 2021 at 6:30 pm

    @rikyrah: And now Nicole Wallace is reporting that Pence wouldn’t even let the Secret Service drive him away from the Capitol because he was afraid they’d kidnap him in service of Trump’s plot.

  32. 32.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    July 15, 2021 at 6:30 pm

    @zhena gogolia:  @Cheryl Rofer: I thought we more or less knew that Rosenstein blocked any wider or deeper investigation, i.e. into turmp’s finances?

    Thinking back to all the twists and turns and maybes and couldn’t-be-provens of all the different roads that lead from The Beast to the Kremlin and it makes my head hurt.

  33. 33.

    dr. bloor

    July 15, 2021 at 6:35 pm

    WWGSD?*

    Hoax until proven otherwise.

    *What Would George Smiley Do?

  34. 34.

    Mike in NC

    July 15, 2021 at 6:36 pm

    Most of us were aware that Trump first went to Moscow in 1987 with his hat in hand. He must have been immediately branded as a “useful idiot”. The truth will come out sooner or later. That he’s not in the slammer already is a disgrace.

  35. 35.

    Roger Moore

    July 15, 2021 at 6:38 pm

    @b1narys3rf:

    I think there’s a basic mistake in this analysis.  Putin and Company’s marriage to international White Supremacy isn’t some incidental means to an end.  They aren’t a bunch of clever people who have connected with White supremacy because they see White supremacists as dupes for their clever plans.  They’re a bunch of White supremacists who see boosting international White supremacy as a valuable goal in its own right.

  36. 36.

    JMG

    July 15, 2021 at 6:41 pm

    I’m sure the Russians did a psych profile of Trump. They probably worked one up for each presidential candidate, Bernie, Ted Cruz, Rubio, all of ’em. That part is probably real. But the rest of it seems fake to me.

  37. 37.

    James E Powell

    July 15, 2021 at 6:41 pm

    @b1narys3rf:

    Who can say? I was just thinking of the rule: never write if you can speak; never speak if you can nod; never nod if you can wink.

    I used to advise clients, don’t think of it as a memo, think of it as an exhibit at your trial.

  38. 38.

    Spanky

    July 15, 2021 at 6:42 pm

    Keep in mind that there are really two elements at play here; the document, and the information it contains. Verification of the document will probably never be airtight. Verification of the info can only come from corroboration from one or more other sources.

    So really, this is just chaff thrown out by some interested party. We can make guesses about who and why, but only time will tell whether anything gets resolved. Don’t waste a lot of bandwidth on this is my takeaway.

  39. 39.

    Baud

    July 15, 2021 at 6:42 pm

    Has there been any update on this?

    Dec. 11, 2019, 3:25 PM EST
    By Dareh Gregorian

    The Department of Justice inspector general’s office is still investigating alleged leaks from the FBI’s New York field office regarding the Hillary Clinton email investigation to Rudy Giuliani in the final days of the 2016 campaign, the IG testified Wednesday.

  40. 40.

    James E Powell

    July 15, 2021 at 6:43 pm

    @Baud:

    An investigation that should have taken a few weeks is now four years old?

  41. 41.

    Spanky

    July 15, 2021 at 6:45 pm

    @quakerinabasement: Well, he would have first-hand insight into the White House SS detail. This does not give me a warm fuzzy about the Service as a whole, and it’s consistent with the Biden folks swapping out agents.

  42. 42.

    Baud

    July 15, 2021 at 6:46 pm

    @James E Powell:

    Well, it wasn’t going to come out under TFG unless they were going to lie. But I hope it hasn’t fallen off the radar with everything else going on.

    The recent report on how the FBI blew the gymnastics sexual abuse investigation triggered my memory.

  43. 43.

    Omnes Omnibus

    July 15, 2021 at 6:46 pm

    @OzarkHillbilly: I said nothing about the level of hygiene.

  44. 44.

    Omnes Omnibus

    July 15, 2021 at 6:49 pm

    @James E Powell: Is you taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy?

  45. 45.

    b1narys3rf

    July 15, 2021 at 6:50 pm

    @Roger Moore: false dichotomy. International oligarchy is by definition very heavily dominated by white supremacy. The Russians are also loving climate change so they can more efficiently travel in the arctic and get more fertile land. It all dovetails. Problem is aside from whatever the masses will tolerate enough oligarchs are starting to hedge bets. So Putin deep down may be more scared than most.

  46. 46.

    jonas

    July 15, 2021 at 6:50 pm

    @Baud: In Russia, word processor corrects you.

  47. 47.

    Another Scott

    July 15, 2021 at 6:51 pm

    @Roger Moore: +1

    The KGB kept records – it’s what bureaucracies do. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were meeting notes about such a meeting. But I would be very surprised if this were genuine.

    It was quickly obvious that Bush’s “memo” about him skipping TANG duty was a forgery, but a woman who was there at the time and knew the people said that the comments and tone were accurate (at least as she remembered it). This feels similar – people of bad faith will spend a bunch of time arguing about the punctuation and word choice in the hope of discrediting the message.

    We don’t have to play.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  48. 48.

    RandomMonster

    July 15, 2021 at 6:53 pm

    I can totally see this as part of the wider Russian disinformation campaign. After all, the goal is to divide the American electorate and sow distrust. Even if the information is true, it will help toward that objective.

  49. 49.

    Anonymous At Work

    July 15, 2021 at 6:59 pm

    Who’s in charge of slipping a few tranqs in Jon Chait’s coffee for a month?

  50. 50.

    Baud

    July 15, 2021 at 7:00 pm

    @Anonymous At Work:

    What did he do now?

  51. 51.

    Hilbertsubspace

    July 15, 2021 at 7:02 pm

    I recall that we had to pull an asset out of Russia in late 2017 or early 2018.  The asset had access to Putin’s desk, and it was they who confirmed that Vlad “signed off” on the plan to help Trump get elected.  That person might be able to confirm the authenticity of the document.  I’m sure at least one person at the CIA has already thought of this.

    I hope at least one person at the CIA has thought of this.

    But, maybe someone should call and check?

  52. 52.

    Tony Jay

    July 15, 2021 at 7:02 pm

    The “authentic information transcribed onto inauthentic documentation” suggestion could well be true. Given what the Russians actually did following the meeting this document references then something very like the conversation and apportionment of responsibility detailed within it will have happened, and it will have been minuted as a matter of course, if only so that Putin had a record of what he’d ordered everyone to do. Is this a genuine leak of those minutes? Is it a disinformation gambit aimed at further destabilising American politics now that Trump is no longer in a position to be directly useful?

    We don’t know. That’s what we know.

    Given all that, it could well be a deliberate cold finger down the spines of other Russian assets in positions of power. There could well be one or more of these documents where Putin’s security council met to discuss what Russia could do to support the Leave campaign during the Brexit Referendum, along with a psychological assessment of Britain’s current Prime Minister who, lest we forget, leads a Party flush with cash from Russian oligarchs and who once ditched his own security detachment to go pay homage at a Russian billionaire’s Italian castle the day after an EU security summit.

    I’d guess that there are a lot of people like that currently on their fifteenth trip to the toilet, wondering if their own usefulness might be coming to an end. This document might turn out to be fake, it might not, but what it definitely does provide is a handy reminder that the Russian security services and the Government they serve are the ones holding information that could destroy a lot of careers, should they choose to.

  53. 53.

    Kent

    July 15, 2021 at 7:08 pm

    @Roger Moore: I think there’s a basic mistake in this analysis. Putin and Company’s marriage to international White Supremacy isn’t some incidental means to an end. They aren’t a bunch of clever people who have connected with White supremacy because they see White supremacists as dupes for their clever plans. They’re a bunch of White supremacists who see boosting international White supremacy as a valuable goal in its own right.

    I rather think it is the opposite. They are RUSSIAN supremacists who are looking to exert Russian supremacy over the former Soviet block and beyond. I don’t think they give the slightest shit about any white supremacy issues beyond their own expansive borders. I don’t think they give a shit, for example, about white supremacy in Northern Idaho. Or how white the city of London is. Or regaining white control over South Africa.

  54. 54.

    Kent

    July 15, 2021 at 7:14 pm

    @James E Powell:

    Who can say? I was just thinking of the rule: never write if you can speak; never speak if you can nod; never nod if you can wink.

    I used to advise clients, don’t think of it as a memo, think of it as an exhibit at your trial.

    Maybe in private business.  But that’s not how bureaucracies work.  And I’m speaking as a former bureaucrat.   If there isn’t an administrative record behind a government decision, then it didn’t happen.

  55. 55.

    Edmund Dantes

    July 15, 2021 at 7:38 pm

    @quakerinabasement: Biden wanted to pick his detail somewhat. Maybe Mike pence isn’t completely dense.

  56. 56.

    Omnes Omnibus

    July 15, 2021 at 7:38 pm

    @Kent: There are lots of discussions that go unrecorded.  “Sir, PFC Smith is fucking up again.”
    ”Okay, start writing him up for everything and let’s get him eliminated,” vs. “Sir, PFC Jones is fucking up again.”

    ”Okay, have your platoon sergeant have a talk with her.  She’s a good troop so let’s get her squared away.”

    Different paperwork from each conversation.  But a decision happened during both.

  57. 57.

    Kathleen

    July 15, 2021 at 7:38 pm

    @quakerinabasement: Holy S**t!!!! I had not heard that.

  58. 58.

    TheflipPsyd

    July 15, 2021 at 7:40 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Did you pull a post earlier today? I could have sworn i read a post by you and then it disappeared.q

  59. 59.

    WaterGirl

    July 15, 2021 at 7:42 pm

    @Baud: Boy would I love to see an update on that!

  60. 60.

    Martin

    July 15, 2021 at 7:43 pm

    @Kent: Yep. Everything gets audited eventually. Know your retention policies inside and out, save the stuff you are required to save, purge the the stuff you are required to purge.

  61. 61.

    FlyingToaster

    July 15, 2021 at 7:44 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I’m pretty sure my grief can never be assuaged (sob!).

  62. 62.

    Elizabelle

    July 15, 2021 at 7:50 pm

    Those “not in 100-years” rainstorms and flooding in Western Germany and Belgium.  Terrible.  67 dead; 1300 unaccounted for (which may just mean elsewhere; one hopes).

    In Europe this week.  Coming to North America, in time.

    All the late model vehicles stacked up and floating. When a natural disaster hits an affluent country.  Not the usual visuals.

  63. 63.

    prostratedragon

    July 15, 2021 at 7:57 pm

    In an earlier thread, mention was made of a new GSA auction in cryptocurrency. One can participate by the mere expediency of submitting one’s tracking info. This sent me on a dive into Serpico material, from which I came up with the score. Good evening listening:

    Soundtrack, Serpico, Mikos Theodorakis

  64. 64.

    James E Powell

    July 15, 2021 at 7:58 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I remember reading a bureaucratic rule that “memos are written to cover the ass of the writer.”

  65. 65.

    Roger Moore

    July 15, 2021 at 7:58 pm

    @Kent: ​
     
    I agree that Putin is a Russian nationalist first, but that doesn’t preclude him being a White supremacist. More specifically, I think he sees right wing, White supremacist parties in the West as being ideologically aligned with him and the best people to help when he’s trying to undermine Western democracies. In inter-war Europe, the fascist parties saw each other as natural allies. I think Putin feels the same way today.

  66. 66.

    Kent

    July 15, 2021 at 8:01 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well yes, but you aren’t talking about actual formal decisions.  I guarantee you that if Private Jones is getting promoted or flushed out of the military or even transferred to another post there will most definitely be a detailed paper trail. You don’t just show up at a new posting without orders and say that “my previous CO thought it might be a good idea if I show up here but he didn’t put anything down on paper.”

  67. 67.

    Martin

    July 15, 2021 at 8:01 pm

    @Elizabelle: Flagstaff, AZ yesterday.

    The challenge here is that all of these fires, all of the extreme fires that don’t just burn through underbrush but eradicate all plant life, remove the mechanisms that hold soil in place resulting in the kind of flash flooding you see in that video.

  68. 68.

    Roger Moore

    July 15, 2021 at 8:04 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    1300 unaccounted for (which may just mean elsewhere; one hopes).

    It definitely happens that way.  My family was temporarily unaccounted for during the 1976 Big Thompson flood.  We had gone camping up in the mountains and were very surprised when we couldn’t take our usual route home.  When we finally made it home, our neighbors were tremendously relieved to see us.  They knew we were in the mountains and assumed the worst.

  69. 69.

    debbie

    July 15, 2021 at 8:05 pm

    It’s enough to know that any mention of an uncomplimentary psychological assessment will drive TFG out of his mind.

  70. 70.

    Kent

    July 15, 2021 at 8:06 pm

    @Roger Moore:  I expect Putin operates exactly like Lord Palmerston described when talking about British interests in the 19th Century:

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.”

  71. 71.

    Martin

    July 15, 2021 at 8:14 pm

    @James E Powell: That’s part of it. But the larger reason is that government isn’t (normally) allowed to be arbitrary because even the best government worker will have their biases, bad days, and so on. So that’s replaced with this rather formal mechanism of documentation, review, audit, oversight, and so on, and none of that works if there isn’t a paper trail to follow, written policies to follow, and so on.

    The way you protect the rights of people is to document everything. Did I tell that person they couldn’t do something, when the policy says they can? Let’s check the notes. There are always contemporaneous notes. What’s your policy on this? Here it is. How’d you come up with that policy? Here’s the record of how it came about – proposals, drafts, markups, meeting minutes, votes, etc. All of it. And this shit gets reviewed all the time.

    It’s not that the paper trail covers my ass, it’s that I get fired if the paper trail doesn’t exist. I spent 3 years in an audit of a set of admission policies I wrote. There’s two 3″ binders in my office – one is all of the documentation of how we developed the policy, the data defending it, the goals we set under the policy, how it was implemented, training materials, all that. And the other is the documentation of the oversight of the policy. Communication, new data collected to show the policy was working as we had hoped, trips across the state for meeting to do all of this in person – me and my binders.

    Our accreditors go through some of this stuff. The last accreditation visit I ran involved roughly 100,000 pages of documentation. Thankfully we can keep most of this in digital form. Previously, we’d have ~20 4 drawer lateral filing cabinets full of documentation.

  72. 72.

    Martin

    July 15, 2021 at 8:16 pm

    @Roger Moore: Always nice when your neighbors are relieved to see you alive. I’ve got a few I’m pretty sure wouldn’t be relieved.

  73. 73.

    Martin

    July 15, 2021 at 8:21 pm

    LA county reinstated their mask mandate for all persons indoors, regardless of vaccination status.

    Good job, everyone.

  74. 74.

    Anonymous At Work

    July 15, 2021 at 8:25 pm

    @Baud: He’s been a leading conspiracy theorist on the topic since 2016.  I fully suspect he has a side apartment just for the giant collage with pictures, push pins, and thread.

  75. 75.

    Roger Moore

    July 15, 2021 at 8:27 pm

    @Kent:

    Sure. But in a lot of cases, the formal decision was first made as an informal decision, and the documentation was put together after the fact as justification rather than used to inform the decision as it was being made.  IOW, the way things are supposed to work is:

    1. Gather all the information we have
    2. Look through the information
    3. Decide what to do based on the information
    4. Publish the decision with supporting information

    What happens instead is more like:

    1. Decide informally what we want to do
    2. Gather information that supports our informal decision
    3. Hold a formal meeting where we come to the predetermined decision
    4. Publish the decision as if it was done by the book

    This kind of thing is exactly why there are sunshine laws and rules that forbid members of formal decision-making bodies from caucusing outside of official meetings.

  76. 76.

    jl

    July 15, 2021 at 8:31 pm

    @Roger Moore: I agree with you that focusing on these forensic exercises is odd, with regard to evaluating Trump as a president. He was in hock to, or extorted by, or overly influenced by certain interests in Russia. Maybe it was all the Russian investors who have bailed him out over the last decade.

    Or maybe it was just admiration for a model of authoritarianism that appealed to Trump. I want a lot of nukes, and Russia has a lot of nukes. I want to be a suave big shot who runs a brutal mafia, and Putin is suave big shot who runs a brutal mafia. I wanna be smart, Putin is smart.

    We can judge Trump as unfit, dangerous and disloyal to US interests without all these forensics. We’re not putting him on trial for violations of criminal law (though I hope we will on other matters).

    There are dozens of smoking guns on the public record, so no reason to obsess over this undercover agent man stuff.

  77. 77.

    Morzer

    July 15, 2021 at 8:38 pm

    Worth considering that this might be a draft version for revision, not a final document. That would explain the errors/questionable word choices, especially if it was written in haste.  It might also explain why the appendices it mentions appear to be missing.  In the internet age, I am more reluctant than ever to state confidently that a native speaker of e.g. English would not use a certain phrase or combination of words. There are a lot of semi-educated people out there who write truly atrocious, poorly organized English, especially when dealing with areas they do not know well. Obviously, the same would be true in the case of Russian or any other language you care to mention.  I don’t think that linguistic criteria alone can determine the authenticity of this document, since we know so very little about it.

  78. 78.

    Roger Moore

    July 15, 2021 at 8:40 pm

    @Martin:

    The interesting this is that governments continue to follow these kinds of bureaucratic rules even when they barely even pretend to be accountable to the people.  The Nazis were very bureaucratic and kept copious records.  So were the Soviets.  These kinds of records are important because even when the government isn’t accountable to the people, lower level functionaries still accountable to higher level functionaries, and they need to keep records to prove they’re doing their jobs.  The details of which records need to be kept may change, but the need to keep records doesn’t.

  79. 79.

    Morzer

    July 15, 2021 at 8:42 pm

    @Roger Moore: Self-protection by documentation is a basic principle for lower-level people in all bureaucracies, whether state-run or in academia or business.

  80. 80.

    Roger Moore

    July 15, 2021 at 8:42 pm

    @Martin:

    LA county reinstated their mask mandate for all persons indoors, regardless of vaccination status.

    Honestly, I’m glad they’re acting when the cases are starting to grow rather than waiting for things to get completely out of control before doing anything.

  81. 81.

    different-church-lady

    July 15, 2021 at 8:44 pm

    If we were Republicans, we’d be all “Who gives a fuck if it’s true, get it out there!”

  82. 82.

    Martin

    July 15, 2021 at 8:47 pm

    @Roger Moore: I am as well, but fuck am I sick of these selfish assholes fucking the country up for everyone.

  83. 83.

    Chetan Murthy

    July 15, 2021 at 8:50 pm

    @Martin:

    Good job, everyone.

    Indeed.  I’m vaccinated (since 28 Apr).  Went to my gym to swim today.  One of the lifeguards (young, male) was *unmasked* and talking loudly with a swimmer about how he didn’t believe in the vaccines.  I stopped, b/c felt like I ought to at least try to support the vaccines.  He told me that he’d already had covid, y’see: he’d had the flu 3 times back-to-back in *2018* (no typo) and so he had natural immunity, no need for a vaccine.

    My gym has a policy that unvaccinated people must wear masks.  This yutz was unvaccinated, and unmasked.  Sigh.

    I called my city health department and reported their asses.

  84. 84.

    Chetan Murthy

    July 15, 2021 at 8:52 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: I also wrote the Mayor and my Supervisor, asking them to institute both (a) mask mandates for workers in all workplaces where it’s feasible, and (b) signage for workplaces that are 100% vaccinated, so we consumers can know that the place is 100% vaccinated (or *not*) and can make our spending decisions accordingly.

    Including *gyms*.

  85. 85.

    mrmoshpotato

    July 15, 2021 at 8:55 pm

    @Chetan Murthy:

    This yutz was unvaccinated, and unmasked.  Sigh.

    I called my city health department and reported their asses.

    Good for reporting that crap.  That dude’s an idiot, an asshole and a dumbass.

  86. 86.

    gwangung

    July 15, 2021 at 9:02 pm

    Russians are racists through and through; any authoritarian system encourages that. They’re racist and homophobic, and that’s why American Republicans get along so well with them….

  87. 87.

    Mike in NC

    July 15, 2021 at 9:11 pm

    @gwangung: Trump dreamed and schemed to be the American version of Putin, and half of Republicans were OK with that.

  88. 88.

    debbie

    July 15, 2021 at 9:13 pm

    @Chetan Murthy:

    He told me that he’d already had covid, y’see: he’d had the flu 3 times back-to-back in *2018* (no typo) and so he had natural immunity, no need for a vaccine.

    I doubt his lungs would agree with that “no need.”

  89. 89.

    Chris Johnson

    July 15, 2021 at 9:14 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    discreet sob

    Yeah, I absolutely agree with both of you. I think this is all 100% true AND was planted because it is set up to be discredited. It’s a trap.

  90. 90.

    Chetan Murthy

    July 15, 2021 at 9:16 pm

    @debbie: I (of course) told the people at the front desk about this, and their response was “well, he might be underage, and many parents don’t want to vaccinate their kids, b/c they don’t know what the long-term effects are, on the heart and brain and such”.  I responded with “well, those people can stay at home”.

    Grr.

  91. 91.

    Gin & Tonic

    July 15, 2021 at 9:23 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: If he’s old enough to be responsible for other people’s lives he’s old enough to be responsible for his own. Fuck that.

  92. 92.

    VeniceRiley

    July 15, 2021 at 9:28 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: Makes me want to shove the story of the 28yo who just got a double lung transplant. He wanted to wait a couple YEARS to be sure if the vaccine side effects. Then he got Covid,ended up in hospital, and his parents are on tv telling people to get shots now now now

  93. 93.

    Chetan Murthy

    July 15, 2021 at 9:29 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Y’know, I *get* that a business (and the  YMCA is a business, I agree) has to attract customers, and that some directors might believe that a customer vaccine requirement would reduce the # of customers.  Sure, I get that.  I don’t agree, but I *get* it.

    But your workers?  What possible reason could a place like the YMCA, THE YMCA FFS, have for not requiring their workers to be vaccinated, and then *advertising* this fact?  It can only make things more attractive for customers, I’d think.

  94. 94.

    Elizabelle

    July 15, 2021 at 9:30 pm

    Yea California.  LA Times email alert:.  This is how you do it.

    UC mandates COVID-19 vaccinations and will bar unvaccinated students from campus

    The University of California has announced that COVID-19 vaccinations will be required before the fall term begins for all students, faculty and staff, becoming the nation’s largest public university system to mandate the vaccines even though the shots don’t yet have full federal approval.

    As the highly contagious Delta variant spreads amid lower vaccination rates among younger people, unvaccinated students without approved exemptions will be barred from in-person classes, events and campus facilities, including housing.

  95. 95.

    Chetan Murthy

    July 15, 2021 at 9:31 pm

    @VeniceRiley: 100% agree with you.  But I still blame the management, more than this dumbfuck yutz.  I mean …. they’re the ones who decided to allow lifeguards to go unmasked.  Everywhere else in the facility, all the workers are masked.

    Well, if this gets all the lifeguards back to wearing masks, it’ll be worth it.  I mean, I want more than that, but I understand: even in SF, even in SF, *even in SF* the covidiocy is strong.

  96. 96.

    raven

    July 15, 2021 at 9:31 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: None of this in Athens Ga

     

    Participating in Athens YMCA programs could increase the risk of contracting COVID-19. The Athens YMCA in no way warrants that COVID-19 infection will not occur through participation in youth program activities or accessing Athens YMCA facilities.

  97. 97.

    Elizabelle

    July 15, 2021 at 9:41 pm

    @Martin:   OMG.  Poor Flagstaff.  At a high elevation. 6,909 feet.

    @Roger Moore:   Glad you were safe.  Had you missed notice of the flood while you were camping??  Easy to do.

  98. 98.

    Elizabelle

    July 15, 2021 at 9:42 pm

    @raven:   It’s Georgia, Jake.  These people have their rights.

    How are you feeling?  Mending well??

  99. 99.

    Kay

    July 15, 2021 at 9:43 pm

    Good detailed account of the post-election period. They were really worried he wasn’t going to leave peacefully. His refusal to concede and escalating rhetoric made them think their worst case scenarios might happen.

    This account of a behind-the-scenes struggle over Iran involving Milley and Trump—a secret backdrop to the public drama unleashed by Trump’s unprecedented refusal to accept the Presidential-election results—comes from some of the nearly two hundred interviews, with a variety of sources, that I have conducted along with my husband, the Times reporter Peter Baker, for a book on the Trump Presidency that will be published next year.

  100. 100.

    Gin & Tonic

    July 15, 2021 at 9:53 pm

    @Kay: “A book that will be published next year.” If these people knew these facts (if they were indeed facts) and withheld them from us so they could make money off a book “next year” then they are worse than TFG. Same thing with Carol Leonnig and the Milley “Reichstag” stuff. They withheld critical information from us, the public, to make money.

    Fucking traitors, as far as I’m concerned.

  101. 101.

    Elizabelle

    July 15, 2021 at 9:59 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:   You will note Glasser’s “husband Peter Baker.”  The FTF NY Times Republican whisperer.

  102. 102.

    Brachiator

    July 15, 2021 at 10:02 pm

    @Kay:

    This account of a behind-the-scenes struggle over Iran involving Milley and Trump—a secret backdrop to the public drama unleashed by Trump’s unprecedented refusal to accept the Presidential-election results—comes from some of the nearly two hundred interviews, with a variety of sources, that I have conducted along with my husband, the Times reporter Peter Baker, for a book on the Trump Presidency that will be published next year.

    This breathy blurb underscores how journalism has degenerated into entertainment. The coming autocracy turned into drama or another dreary reality TV show.

    What if Trump had succeeded? Would these idiots just sign on to become part of the propaganda team?

  103. 103.

    Gin & Tonic

    July 15, 2021 at 10:03 pm

    @Elizabelle: I am honestly mystified as to why the NYT or WaPo allows these people to do this shit.

  104. 104.

    Ruckus

    July 15, 2021 at 10:05 pm

    @Martin:

    So nothing changes for me then. Mask up inside or around numerous people, when out walking, just don’t get close to the very few walking the other way. I never stopped masking. The small inconvenience is not worth the risk.

  105. 105.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    July 15, 2021 at 10:08 pm

    Michael Grunwald @MikeGrunwald 1h
    If Biden had lost, the Tongass and its carbon would be toast. But he won, so the Tongass gets saved, and climate activists get to call him a coward anyway.

  106. 106.

    Kay

    July 15, 2021 at 10:09 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I agree but I still want to know.

    Hiding it and waiting to sell the book had real consequences too- it allowed the Trump people 7 months to get away. The timing mattered.

    I’m the kind of person who wants to know the worst case scenario though, even in hindsight. I thought it was a very dangerous period – I had trouble sleeping for those months and I almost never have trouble sleeping.

  107. 107.

    Chetan Murthy

    July 15, 2021 at 10:15 pm

    @quakerinabasement: Can there be any Dignity Wraith (tm Josh Marshall) more abject than Mike Pence?  Truly, the man has lost his spine, his self-respect, his dignity.  He is a mere worm, squirming beneath the steely-eyed orange gaze of his tormentor, mewling “Please don’t hurt me, master!  Please don’t hurt me, AGAIN!”

  108. 108.

    Dan B

    July 15, 2021 at 10:17 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: We have seen “The True Adam Silverman”☆ with dogs.  Rumor has it they were bigger than “The True Adam Silverman”☆’s dogs.  And they were much higher altitude as well.

  109. 109.

    Dan B

    July 15, 2021 at 10:17 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: We have seen “The True Adam Silverman”☆ with dogs.  Rumor has it they were bigger than “The True Adam Silverman”☆’s dogs.  And they were much higher altitude as well.

  110. 110.

    Ruckus

    July 15, 2021 at 10:18 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Do you really think the FTFNYT or the WaPo really cares what they do? Also are they doing this while getting paid by FTFNYT or WaPo? Because if not can they actually do anything? I mean sure if they were widely discrediting the papers and getting paid or not that might be an issue. But a journalist writing a book? I don’t believe that’s ever happened before……  And there is a reason it’s the FTFNYT, as we all know.

  111. 111.

    Kay

    July 15, 2021 at 10:20 pm

    At another meeting, at which Trump was not present, some of the President’s foreign-policy advisers again pushed military action against Iran. Milley later said that, when he asked why they were so intent on attacking Iran, Vice-President Mike Pence replied, “Because they are evil.”

    When I first read this I thought Pence meant the Trump people were evil and I though “wow- who knew Mike Pence was an insider turncoat of the regime”
    But he means everyone in IRAN is evil, doesn’t he?

  112. 112.

    karen marie

    July 15, 2021 at 10:21 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: Bingo.

  113. 113.

    Ruckus

    July 15, 2021 at 10:21 pm

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Truly, the man has lost his spine, his self-respect, his dignity.

    You are going to have to show me, and prove to me that he had a gram of any of those prior to SFB.

  114. 114.

    Chetan Murthy

    July 15, 2021 at 10:28 pm

    @Ruckus: I am shocked to find myself being the generous one, willing to impute human qualities to our enemies!

  115. 115.

    Dan B

    July 15, 2021 at 10:35 pm

    @Roger Moore: We were declared dead by a friend who confused Lake Chelan in the North Cascades with Mt. St. Helens.  We started our morning with a trip up the lake on the Lady of the Lake.  There was very deep gunfire from the 7,000 foot ridge above the dock.  It was a result of the subsonic soundwaves from the eruption bouncing around the 100+miles of the mountains between us and St. Helens.

    Lesson: Tell some people about your trip after you’re home.

  116. 116.

    Amir Khalid

    July 15, 2021 at 10:43 pm

    @raven:

    If the Y can’t ensure/guarantee that its youth programme activities won’t get participants infected, the responsible thing to do is shut them down. But I take it the Athens YMCA doesn’t see this as an option.

  117. 117.

    debbie

    July 15, 2021 at 10:51 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Publicity for the paper.

  118. 118.

    Grover Gardner

    July 15, 2021 at 10:57 pm

    This is why I love this blog.  Real honesty and perspective.  Thanks to Cheryl and Adam.

  119. 119.

    Brachiator

    July 15, 2021 at 11:03 pm

    @Kay:

    At another meeting, at which Trump was not present, some of the President’s foreign-policy advisers again pushed military action against Iran. Milley later said that, when he asked why they were so intent on attacking Iran, Vice-President Mike Pence replied, “Because they are evil.”

    Wow. What a devilishly ambiguous framing.

    And quietly says so much about Pence.

  120. 120.

    ronno2018

    July 15, 2021 at 11:04 pm

    good post.   it is pretty easy to troll and generate what social sectors want to hear.

  121. 121.

    Xavier

    July 15, 2021 at 11:20 pm

    I have no way of knowing whether Steele or this are legit, but what bothers me is that these reports explain a number of Trump’s actions better than any alternative I’ve heard.

  122. 122.

    Gvg

    July 15, 2021 at 11:33 pm

    @quakerinabasement: we don’t really care about that. Trump did so many bad things in public as policy that a disgusting personal kink has no meaning. Kids in cages, pardoning war criminals, trying to overthrow a lawful election, not doing anything about the pandemic, undermining trust in science and medicine, taking bribes in effect, leaving Puerto Rico in repaired, and on and on.

  123. 123.

    RobertDSC-Mac Mini

    July 15, 2021 at 11:42 pm

    @Martin:

    I’ve been wearing mine on the train ever since the cooking period after the second shot was finished. I never leave home without a mask.

  124. 124.

    Uncle Cosmo

    July 16, 2021 at 6:26 am

    @Elizabelle: Poor Flag indeed. I have good memories of the place from a brief visit in 2005 – only place in the SW I liked well enough to seriously consider for investment property and subsequent retirement. home**. And I just might still.

    ** FantaSe, you say? Too expensive and I loathe the omnipresent adobe. (Why would you build a million-dollar house to look like its walls were slathered with mud??) Flag is about the same size, has no architectural pretensions, a college campus, two astronomical observatories, and [prepandemic] a steady stream of international visitors headed for the Grand Canyon. (I remember lining up for breakfast pastries at the EconoLodge with a fellow from Helsinki in front of me and two charming young teachers from France behind.) When I’m too old and decrepit to lug a bag around Yerp, it wouldn’t be a bad plan B to settle where Yerp would come to me…provided flood insurance was affordable…

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