Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

If you are still in the gop, you are either an extremist yourself, or in bed with those who are.

One of our two political parties is a cult whose leader admires Vladimir Putin.

American History and Black History can not be separated.

People really shouldn’t expect the government to help after they watched the GOP drown it in a bathtub.

I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

The republican speaker is a slippery little devil.

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires.

When they say they’re pro-life, they don’t mean yours.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

Please don’t feed the bears.

Polls are now a reliable indicator of what corporate Republicans want us to think.

Schmidt just says fuck it, opens a tea shop.

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

If West Virginia and San Francisco had a love child.

I really should read my own blog.

Fundamental belief of white supremacy: white people are presumed innocent, minorities are presumed guilty.

We won’t go back.

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

You are here: Home / Politics / Violent Insurrection at the Capitol / Investigations Into Violent Extremist Attacks / Monday Morning Open Thread: Setting Up the 1/6 Commission

Monday Morning Open Thread: Setting Up the 1/6 Commission

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  2. 2.

    MJS

    Every time someone in the media refers to Kinzinger as an “anti-Trump Republican”, they need to be reminded that he voted for Trump in 2020! The same may be true of Cheney, I’m not sure.

  3. 3.

    Baud

    Also, I’ve seen other posts calling Kinzinger and Cheney “anti-Trump Republicans.” You know, there is also the option of referring to them as “pro-democracy Republicans” or “anti-authoritarian Republicans.” We have a choice on how to frame this

    If you want your messaging to succeed, don’t increase the syllables.

  4. 4.

    Ten Bears

    Dems should give thought to the rise of responsible, of reasonable, republicans, and all those “independents” out there that used to be ~ before Trump ~ republicans.

  5. 5.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Ohio Senate candidate JD Vance blames America’s woes on ‘the childless left’

    The author turned Ohio Senate candidate JD Vance has blamed America’s woes on “the childless left”, singling out Vice-President Kamala Harris, transportation secretary Pete Buttigieg, Senator Cory Booker and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for their own share of the blame.

    Speaking to a conservative thinktank, the Republican also praised the far-right president of Hungary, Viktor Orbán, for encouraging married couples to have children.
    ……………………………..
    The “childless left”, he said, have no “physical commitment to the future of this country” yet offer an “elite model” for the American business and political class.

    Mentioning the four prominent Democrats, he asked: “Why is this just a normal fact of … life for the leaders of our country to be people who don’t have a personal and direct stake in it via their own offspring?”
    ………………………………………………..
    “The Democrats are talking about giving the vote to 16-year-olds,” Vance said. “Let’s do this instead. Let’s give votes to all children in this country, but let’s give control over those votes to the parents of the children.

    Asking if such a move would “mean that non-parents don’t have as much of a voice as parents” and “that parents get a bigger say in how democracy functions”, Vance said that though he expected criticism from “the Atlantic and the Washington Post and all the usual suspects”, the answer was yes.

    “We should worry that in America, family formation, our birth rates, a ton of indicators of family health have collapsed,” he said, warning of a “civilisational crisis”.

    In Hungary under Orbán, Vance said, “they offer loans to newly married couples that are forgiven at some point later if those couples have actually stayed together and had kids.”

    “Why can’t we do that here? Why can’t we actually promote family formation?”

    In response, Dave Weigel, a Washington Post reporter, tweeted that Vance should “pretend I’m not here”. He added: “Interesting speech. Vance praised a policy by Viktor Orbán that pays parents who have multiple children … but didn’t mention the Democrats’ child tax credit.”

  7. 7.

    Low Key Swagger

    Been a little chatter regarding internal polling that is possibly behind the new and improved vaccine messaging by some of the GOP. Does this perhaps provide some cover for other R’s to climb aboard this commission at Pelosi’s request? Who are some other possibilities?

  8. 8.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    Wracking my brain trying to think of who else might be remotely appointable and not so scared of primary challenges from the right that they’d accept.

    Maybe some ancient ward heeler like Hal Rogers would do.

  10. 10.

    Suzanne

    @OzarkHillbilly: The Right is soooooo worried about baby-making, and yet they want to endanger the lives of my babies by refusing to get vaccinated.

    The other aspect of their push for more kids that I find bizarre is that plenty of people are forming successful, lasting marriages and having children. They’re just college-educated liberals, not Trump’s trash.

  11. 11.

    Baud

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Vance praised a policy by Viktor Orbán that pays parents who have multiple children … but didn’t mention the Democrats’ child tax credit.”

    The child tax credit doesn’t have authoritarian conditions attached to it.  Republicans love authoritarian conditions.

  12. 12.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    “The Democrats are talking about giving the vote to 16-year-olds,” Vance said. “Let’s do this instead. Let’s give votes to all children in this country, but let’s give control over those votes to the parents of the children.

    Asking if such a move would “mean that non-parents don’t have as much of a voice as parents” and “that parents get a bigger say in how democracy functions”, Vance said that though he expected criticism from “the Atlantic and the Washington Post and all the usual suspects”, the answer was yes.

    “We should worry that in America, family formation, our birth rates, a ton of indicators of family health have collapsed,” he said, warning of a “civilisational crisis”.

    So Vance is a garden-variety paleocon afflicted with the ideas of Pat Buchanan, where Dad runs the household and controls the voting block.

  15. 15.

    Chris Johnson

    @OzarkHillbilly: 
    So JD Vance is going full Great Replacement Theory.

    Shocked, shocked I am that he is going to be pushing cloaked white supremacist bullshit. I’m not even sure that counts as cloaked, really. ‘Civilizational crisis’, huh?

    Nazis gotta nazi. Fuck them all.

  17. 17.

    Spanky

    Shame that Gerry Doyle seems incapable of thinking that these political “journalists” might have a definite agenda, and it ain’t pro-Democrat.

  19. 19.

    Suzanne

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: For sure. But the ongoing trend of this generation is that marriage is becoming a class marker. Marriage is also happening later, as is first childbirth, after parents complete educations and establish careers. These people are liberal and increasingly so. So when the social conservatives deplore the state of family formation, I have to wonder why they aren’t good at it.

  20. 20.

    Kathleen

    • @Suzanne: Plus they don’t want lower income pregnant women to have access to affordable health care and once the child is born they don’t want them to eat or go to doctors.
  24. 24.

    Baud

    @Spanky:

    I’ve heard the idea floated about in certain localities.  But it’s not a mainstream idea among national Democrats. Vance is simply engaging in the well worn practice of projecting fringe ideas onto the national party.

  26. 26.

    WereBear

    @Baud: Vance is simply engaging in the well worn practice of projecting fringe ideas onto the national party.

     
    To be fair, we don’t have to do that for Republicans. They embrace all the fringe, all by themselves.

  27. 27.

    Suzanne

    @Spanky: I personally think 16-year-olds should vote. I had a job and paid taxes when I was 16. No taxation without representation.

  28. 28.

    Baud

    @Suzanne:

    What’s hilarious are his examples. Harris has step kids, so is invested in the future under Vance’s own theory. Pete would have to adopt, which I can’t imagine Vance would support. Booker and AOC are single and AOC is still pretty young.

  34. 34.

    Geminid

    @Low Key Swagger: Maybe Fred Upton (MI). He may be thinking of retiring anyway. John Katko (NY) is another possibility. I was told that they both said they would not serve, but I could not find confirmation in news reporting.

    Both Katko and Upton, if he runs, will face primary challenges anyway, because they voted for impeachment. I’m not sure serving on the select commitee will make matters worse for them. The commitee will develop some powerful evidence, in the midst of plea deals and trials for hundreds of insurrection participants. Republicans railing against the commitee may seem small and desperate to voters.

    I will be watching Upton’s primary, and those of impeachers Kinzinger (IL), Meijar (MI), and Gonzalez (OH). These races will provide a good look at how much trump’s vindictiveness resonates with midwestern Republicans. I would not count any of these Congressmen out.

  35. 35.

    Nicole

    @Suzanne:

    No taxation without representation.

    Makes me think of that lyric from “Eve of Destruction,” released when voting age was 21 but the draft was 18.

    I wish they would lower the voting age to 16.  Schools could take high school juniors/seniors to vote during the school day as part of their high school Civics classes, and I bet it would increase voter participation for the kids as they became legal adults.

    Which, of course, is exactly why people like Vance present it like it’s the most insane idea ever- the last thing the GOP wants is more people voting.  Or at least, more people of a certain kind.  I have no doubt he’ll refine his “parents get to vote for their kids” to “fathers get to vote for their kids.”

  36. 36.

    Suzanne

    @Chris Johnson: The most recent take on all of the “Americans need to haz moar BABIEZ” rhetoric hasn’t been so much about replacement per se. It’s just been more about how there won’t be any Social Security if people don’t have more kids. Which might not be racist in its tenor, but it’s certainly fucking craven and nakedly self-interested. “Have more kids to support me in my old age.” The irony of these people, who oppose any strengthening of the safety net as SOSHULIZM, being worried about getting their monthly deposits into their bank accounts, is also not lost on me.

  37. 37.

    Kathleen

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:  Isn’t he just dreadful? Believe it or not he’s creeping me out more than Paul or McConnell do and that’s saying something. He actually raises the hair on the back of my neck. He looks like he’s auditioning for role as #4 in the lineup for an L&O SVU episode.

  38. 38.

    OzarkHillbilly

    As far as 16 year olds voting, we should work on getting 18 yo to vote first. I gotta be honest and say when I was a hormone raging 16, voting was about the last thing I was gonna concern myself with.

  39. 39.

    satby

    @Baud: Pete and Chasten have spoken publicly about their intent to adopt, so Vance can riff on the decline of the “traditional family roles” or the “gay agenda” next.

  42. 42.

    Kay

    JD Vance gets way, way more media coverage than he merits. I think it’s because he was lauded by fancy conservatives because fancy conservatives are poor judges of character and merit.

    The Ohio Senate race, however, on the R side, is probably good for Democrats if “good” means a bloody primary with a bunch of unappealing, pandering hacks with bad ideas. It will still be really hard to win but it would be harder to win if they had better candidates. So, Vance is a small net plus for Democrats in the scheme of things.

  45. 45.

    Suzanne

    @Spanky: I don’t know enough to have an answer for that. I know there’s evidence that the brain isn’t fully mature until 25, so maybe that’s when we can start trying people as adults.

    But I don’t see what that has to do with voting. I believe that you can have the mental capacity of a child and still vote.

  49. 49.

    Bex

    I have not read Vance’s book, but I am looking forward to reading Jesus and John Wayne by Kristen Kobes Du Mez, which explains a lot about the last 50 years of the fight for white supremacy through the lens of evangelical “Christians.”  This includes right-wing Catholics, including newly-minted convert, Vance.

  52. 52.

    Spanky

    @Suzanne:

    I believe that you can have the mental capacity of a child and still vote.

    Hmmm. One wonders why the GQP hasn’t run with this idea.

  53. 53.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    I went to the Facebook page of his home county GOP committee (don’t ask) and the members of the committee had some posts up celebrating him and the comments from the local base were hysterical. They hate him :)

    Mandel is also an awful candidate, in a slightly different way.

  54. 54.

    WereBear

    @Baud: In addition, AOC was a bartender prior to becoming a Congressperson. The hours alone make that very tough to do and raise a child.

    Or is Vance encouraging people to have lots of children whether they can afford them or not?

  56. 56.

    NotMax

    @Bex

    including newly-minted convert, Vance.

    “Go forth and multiply.”

    “I was told there would be no math.”

  57. 57.

    Baud

    @WereBear:

    Yeah, but she’s been in Congress for three years now.  Plenty of time to get knocked up. Twice. What’s her deal anyway? It’s like she’s not even trying.

  60. 60.

    Geminid

    @Baud: When Vance was much discussed here a couple weeks ago, it occured to me that he was much better known among Juicers than he was among Ohioans. Peter Thiel is said to be dropping $10 million on Vance’s campaign, so I guess that will change.

  61. 61.

    raven

    Disgraced Trump administration figure Michael Flynn boasted on Sunday that maybe he’ll “find somebody” in Washington with a new assault-style rifle a California church gave him.

     

  62. 62.

    Kathleen

    1. @Kay: I thought Rep Bill Seitz’s evisceration of Vance in my local paper was very telling. Seitz has been in the House forever down here.
  63. 63.

    Ohio Mom

    I wish Kay was here. I tried googling the newest poll numbers on the Ohio Senate race and got nowhere.

    She would know how Vance is actually doing against the others vying for the seat. My very uninformed view is, don’t count Jane Timken out. She is entrenched in the Ohio Republican Party and as a woman, I think would appeal to well, suburban women.

    But as I said, my view is very uninformed. So far, Vance seems to be winning the publicity race.

    ETA: Kay is here! With the scoop, as always.

  65. 65.

    debbie

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    He’s an asshole anyway, but holding up Orban as a shining example of anything but demagoguery and repression is garbage. Vance only exceeds Orban in his garbageness.

  67. 67.

    hueyplong

    @Kay:  “JD Vance gets way, way more media coverage than he merits.”

    Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  This whole “campaign” is about getting attention/name recognition (mere authorship of a book misses +90% of his target audience).

    Really, really hoping he’s a practicing anti-vaxxer.

  69. 69.

    debbie

    @Baud:

    He takes it further when he says their parents should have control over their votes. I can’t imagine that going over well with the new voters.

  70. 70.

    Geminid

    @Geminid: I saw a little bit of a Vance campaign appearence, and he looked stiff and wooden. Unimpressive. I suspect that primary will come down to Mandel and Timkin, and I hope it’s bitter and divisive.

  71. 71.

    MattF

    Vance has now shown his true colors. We can be pleased about that.

    Pelosi always remarks on the trauma imposed on House members by the events of 1/6. Trumpists who claim it was just a happy and peaceful group of Capitol tourists betrayed by Antifa-commie-Democrats are headed into tranquilizer-dart territory. Trump can maintain his delusional world-view, but there’s a price for that.

  72. 72.

    Ohio Mom

    If anyone needed proof that I am a slow typist, here it is. While I was wishing for Kay’s appearance, she had already commented and people had commented on her comments.

    Makes me wonder what will appear in this thread after I hit Post this time around.

  73. 73.

    Kay

    @Geminid:

    JD Vance left, made good, and came back to scold them about how they have bad families and don’t work hard enough. Why would that be popular with poor and working class white people in rural counties? No one likes to be lectured, not liberal voters and not conservative voters.

    His campaign is an inter-Party GOP discussion – it’s about looking for reasons why poor and working class white conservative areas in Ohio are such a fucking disaster and the reasons CANNOT be in any way tied to conservative economic policy. That’s the role he fills and that’s why he gets 10 million dollars.

  74. 74.

    debbie

    @Ohio Mom:

    Vance is Jekyll and Hyde. Either he presents himself as a reasonable Republican or he comes out with nonsense like Orban. My read is that Vance isn’t commanding a whole lot of respect from the Ohio GOP. They’re too busy loving Timkin and the other nutjobs.

  76. 76.

    Kay

    @Ohio Mom:

    She is entrenched in the Ohio Republican Party and as a woman, I think would appeal to well, suburban women.

    I love women, you can put me down as pro-women, but I have yet to see any evidence at all that women vote for women because they’re women. This is true on the D side and the R side. There is not any sort of voting bloc that can be identified as female.
    But I think she might be a better candidate in that field just by virtue of not being unlikeable, so she has that.

  78. 78.

    Sloane Ranger

    Having 16 year old voting has already happened here in the UK. Specifically for the last Scottish Independence referendum. They voted in large numbers for independence as the SNP expected. Young enough to still believe that a world consisting entirely of unicorns and rainbows can be made in one simple step.

  79. 79.

    Ohio Mom

    debbie:

    That’s my sense of it, Vance is getting lots of air time but Jane Timken is the tortoise to his hare.

    She gives me the creeps, I am afraid of her, while Josh Mandel just irritates me. But I am not a Republican obviously, and therefore my opinion is irrelevant when it comes to calculation the odds.

  81. 81.

    debbie

    @Ohio Mom:

    I feel just the opposite. They’re both TFGsuckers, but Mandel’s got a real gift for cruelty and lying and a willingness to burn everything down to get what he wants.

  82. 82.

    chrome agnomen

    @Kay: it’s the bill cosby ‘pull up your pants’ riff refashioned for the poor white community.

  83. 83.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Kay:

    I agree with you about that in partisan races, and even in primaries (I attribute that to name recognition).

    Here in Louisville, though, women dominate judicial elections (which are nonpartisan). It’s a huge structural advantage, and everyone knows it.

    Otherwise conservative suburban white  women vote in droves for really surprising female candidates against much more conservative male candidates (including incumbents with good name recognition).

  84. 84.

    Ohio Mom

    Kay:

    I was thinking in terms of how suburban women went for Biden.

    I can see my neighbors wanting a softer, kinder Republican, and even though that is not Timken, my neighbors are not particularly informed or deep thinkers. I mean, I’m glad my neighbors went for Biden but I don’t count on them remaining Democratic voters.

  86. 86.

    Kay

    @Ohio Mom

    I agree with you there- I just don’t think it’s “female candidate”, hence, Biden. It’s a set of characteristics that are often read as more female than male, being reasonable, caring for others, etc.

  87. 87.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Closing quote from, Iraqi militias grow in power as Iran’s military strongman proves too weak

    “If that happens, we will get somewhere,” said Rashid al-Saede, a resident of east Baghdad. “But right now, there are posters of Suleimani and Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis [a senior militia leader killed with Suleimani] all through the Green Zone. The airport road is named after them both and the car they were killed in has been mounted as a statue greeting new arrivals. Who’s more powerful now? All those things give you the answer.”

  88. 88.

    Kay

    JD Vance is like the Bill Cosby of poor white people. Fancy conservatives love Vance because fancy conservatives actually have contempt for the rural, lower income GOP base but they can’t say that.

    Vance tells white working class Republican voters to pull up their pants. That’s why fancy conservatives love him.

  89. 89.

    Suzanne

    @Kay:

    fancy conservatives actually have contempt for the rural, lower income GOP base but they can’t say that. 

    It’s clear as day to the rest of us, I don’t know why they don’t see it. But whatever.

  90. 90.

    Kay

    @chrome agnomen:

    Exactly. It’s a real thing though, in the Ohio GOP. They look at these collapsing rural areas and they can’t blame liberals- the places skew 75-25 R, so they look to the lower classes of R voters as the problem. It’s an inter-Party discussion. Vance is like the translator between the classes. But he’s a bad translator.

  91. 91.

    Booger

    @Bex: It’s a good read, tho pretty depressing overall. I just finished the biography of William F. Buckley Jr., which covers similar ground. Toss in “One Nation Under God” by Kevin Kruse and you’ve got a right apalling map of the decline of the U.S. into sharia territory.

  92. 92.

    Kay

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    women dominate judicial elections

    Everyone says that in Ohio too. I looked once and it didn’t “hold”- I couldn’t find real evidence of it- but it does SEEM to be true. I do think there’s polling that voters see women as “more fair” so maybe that’s it.

  93. 93.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    When you choose a Republican way of life, you will either be one of the few who will be highly successful, or you will be extremely unsuccessful. Their culture has fewer gradations than ours does, although they paper it over by creating a false sense of status.

  94. 94.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Elected Republican officials in a conservative Michigan county who gave themselves bonuses totalling $65,000 with federal Covid-19 relief funds said they would return the money – following days of criticism.

    The Shiawassee county commissioners acted after a prosecutor said the payments were illegal, the Argus-Press reported. The Michigan state constitution bars additional compensation for elected officials “after services had already been rendered”, prosecutor Scott Koerner said.

    The commissioners voted on 15 July to award themselves $65,000 as part of a plan to give $557,000 to 250 county employees as “hazard pay” for dealing with the coronavirus pandemic. The smallest amounts for recipients were $1,000 to $2,000. But the chairman of the county board, Jeremy Root, got $25,000. Two commissioners received $10,000 each, while four received $5,000 each. The vote was 6-0 with one commissioner absent. The commissioners awarded money to other elected officials, including the prosecutor, the sheriff and the county clerk – all Republicans too. They also said they would give it back.

    “Since these payments were made, confusion about the nature of these funds has run rampant,” a statement said. “[We] deeply regret that this gesture has been misinterpreted, and have unanimously decided to voluntarily return the funds to the county, pending additional guidance from the state of Michigan.”

    Translation: “Whatever happened to smoke filled rooms?”

  95. 95.

    Anya

    @OzarkHillbilly: He’s such a joke. How can someone surrender their dignity like this? Does he not have friends and loved ones who care about this man? I cringe for him.

  96. 96.

    Baud

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I take it the grunts who actually had to deal with the public face to face didn’t get hazard pay.

     

     

    ETA: Nevermind. I see now that 250 employees got it.

  97. 97.

    Lacuna Synecdoche

    Asha Rangappa via Anne Laurie @ Top:

    Also, I’ve seen other posts calling Kinzinger and Cheney “anti-Trump Republicans.” You know, there is also the option of referring to them as “pro-democracy Republicans” or “anti-authoritarian Republicans.” We have a choice on how to frame this …

    I’m thinking “Anti-Treason Republicans” or “Anti-Insurrection Republicans.”

    Or maybe “Anti-Violence Against Cops Republicans” or “Anti-Shit-Smearing Republicans.”

  98. 98.

    Anya

    @Kay: Why is Ohio becoming out of the reach of democrats when it voted for Obama twice? What went wrong? Is the Dem bench getting thinner?

  99. 99.

    SFAW

    @Baud:

    I would entertain the idea of limiting voting to the vaccinated.

    I’d say “and those who know/believe Trump lost in 2020,” but the Venn diagram for that might be one circle.

    [Yes, I know there are some Trumpistas who got vaccinated, and vice versa.]

  100. 100.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Suzanne:

    The other aspect of their push for more kids that I find bizarre is that plenty of people are forming successful, lasting marriages and having children. They’re just college-educated liberals, not Trump’s trash.

    My son and his wife, both with master’s degrees, both successful in their field, both liberals, would love to have children. But for that it would be helpful if his wife could enter the US.

  101. 101.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Kay:

    About 75 percent of family court judges and district judges in Jefferson County are women. Circuit court judges are about at 60% women. I’ve looked at precinct level tallies and it is VERY true.

    The Governor just filled some retired divisions with three gay men. I give only one of them a chance to keep it (he’s got name recognition, was already a lower court judge and his hubs is a HUGE Dem donor with piles of ad money), the other two are toast.

  104. 104.

    artem1s

    @Nicole:

    I wish they would lower the voting age to 16.  Schools could take high school juniors/seniors to vote during the school day as part of their high school Civics classes, and I bet it would increase voter participation for the kids as they became legal adults.

    A civics field trip to vote?  You can’t get conservadumb parents to give their kids permission to go to sex ed classes or a trip to the Natural History Museum.

    And higher voter engagement didn’t occur back in the 70’s when they gave 18 year olds the vote.  it’s a problem I see in common with the extremely vocal voting blocks.  Single issue voters drop off the planet when their issue is taken care of.  In the 70’s it was the draft, not the war they were protesting. Taking your kid to a town hall or your polling place on election day is a better way to get and keep kids engaged.  If the family is practicing patriarchal voting and only daddy gets to say who Mommy votes for, well that’s a lesson those kids are going to learn long before they are 16. No civics teacher is going to get to intervene and override Daddy’s right to tell their kids who to vote for.

  105. 105.

    Citizen Alan

    @Gin & Tonic:  Family members have asked me if I ever want to have children.. My response was that I think it’s a sin to bring children into the world if you believe that they ll be living in thunderdome before they reach the age of 50.

  106. 106.

    Ohio Mom

    Thanks, Kay, I always appreciate your comments and insights. You have your ear to the ground and good judgement, that’s a strong combination.

    Anya @98:

    Ohio is very gerrymandered for both statewide and Congressional elections and that gives Republicans a fair amount of momentum. I think it’s harder to build a bench when your candidates can’t even get elected to serve as a lowly state rep because the district has been drawn to favor the other side. At least that’s what I see happening here in the eastern side of the Cincinnati area.

  107. 107.

    A Ghost to Most

    The God-Botherers Oppression Party will continue to double down until they are crushed. Jus’ sayin’.

  108. 108.

    Soprano2

    I was reading Twitter yesterday in the ER waiting room, and saw that Dave Weigel tweet about J.D.Vance. I groaned and told my mother what he was suggesting without telling her who suggested it. She said derisively “That’s probably a woman” (she has a low opinion of women who don’t vote the way she does), and I said “No, it’s J.D. Vance. Do you know who he is?”. She looked a little alarmed and said yes, she knows who he is, and she was surprised he said that. She asked me where he said it, so I told her. She can look it up herself if she wants. I think she wanted to call me a liar! LOL Here’s a practical problem with this – if the couple got divorced, would the children’s votes have to be fairly apportioned? Wouldn’t that become just another thing for divorced parents to fight over? I wonder if Vance even knows that gay people have kids.

  109. 109.

    Ken

    @Baud: Granted. You have two more wishes.

    Remember to save the third to undo the unexpected consequences of the first two.

  111. 111.

    Betty

    @Suzanne: My nephew’s wife would not agree to get married and start a family until her student loans were paid off. Not an unusual situation for younger people. Ask J. D. what he thinks about student debt.

  112. 112.

    Suzanne

    @artem1s:

    And higher voter engagement didn’t occur back in the 70’s when they gave 18 year olds the vote. 

    Whether or not 16-year-olds actually would vote, I think that they should at least have the option to do so, since they may be taxpayers.

    Also, I think there’s probably some positive acculturation to be done at school, and many don’t get it at home. Hell, many schools are polling places, so it doesn’t even need to be a field trip.

    Up until a disastrous election in Maricopa County in 2016, I always voted in person and took my kids, so they could see how to do it so it was normal to them. I used to do a lot of canvassing and nonpartisan voter registration, and it always struck me how many people didn’t vote or register in large part because they simply did not know how or where. (Yes, I would say that most of these people were not really very smart, but they still have a franchise to exercise.)

  113. 113.

    montanareddog

    @Baud: Humble suggestion: let’s not use adjectives at all.

    We want to encourage the the idea that it is bipartisan, then let’s just frame it as “Speaker Pelosi appoints Republicans Cheney and Kinzinger to 1/6 House select committee”

  114. 114.

    Suzanne

    @Betty: My husband and I have paid off all of our debt with the exception of our student loans, which we will probably die with.

  115. 115.

    Kay

    @Anya:

    I think we have a kind of understandable tunnel vision, where we only look at our side and our voters.

    Their side and their voters changed. There’s a kind of panic in conservative areas here, and partly it is driven by fear of “the other” but partly it’s driven by the real collapse of their communities.

    They’re not marrying and staying married. They’re not working and not supporting their families. They’re drug addicted and desperate. In a very real way Democrats, and especially “urban liberals”  aren’t even relevant to any of it.  You didn’t cause it and you can’t fix it, but for the sake of honest analysis I think we have to admit that things are going on in these communities that we are not actually part of and are not “about” us. We see them only as “in opposition” but actually they’re conducting these battles wholly within the Right.

  116. 116.

    Kay

    @Anya:

    Take Democrats and liberals out of it and look at their communities. See them as something other than the flip side of liberals, or exclusively “in opposition” to liberals. All the factions and divisions we have among liberals and Democrats and Lefties? They have that on their side too. In a weird way we make what is happening on the Right about us, and there’s a lot that isn’t about liberals at all.

  117. 117.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kay: They’re not marrying and staying married. They’re not working and not supporting their families. They’re drug addicted and desperate. In a very real way Democrats, and especially “urban liberals” aren’t even relevant to any of it. You didn’t cause it and you can’t fix it, but for the sake of honest analysis

    We can take the blame for it. It is all our fault after all. s//

  118. 118.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Soprano2:

    Here’s a practical problem with this – if the couple got divorced, would the children’s votes have to be fairly apportioned? Wouldn’t that become just another thing for divorced parents to fight over?

    Goddammit, and here I’ve got enough problems with telling litigants to fuck off and quit whining over the kid stimulus money that isn’t worth the expense of fighting over. Now I’m going to have to tell them to fuck off and quit whining about who gets to decide the kids’ votes?

  120. 120.

    Suzanne

    They’re not marrying and staying married. They’re not working and not supporting their families. They’re drug addicted and desperate. In a very real way Democrats, and especially “urban liberals”  aren’t even relevant to any of it.

    Agreed, but with a major caveat: they’re voting to fuck with us out of spite.

  121. 121.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Kay:

    When you speak of family in this sense, inevitably, you’re talking about the products short term relationships of intoxicated convenience between guys with names like “Dakota”, “Kyle” and “Dwayne” with girls named “Krystal”, “Twyla” and “Starla” out in the dark parking spot by the dumpster behind the Circle K.

  122. 122.

    Nicole

    @artem1s:

    A civics field trip to vote?  You can’t get conservadumb parents to give their kids permission to go to sex ed classes or a trip to the Natural History Museum.

    Well, conservadumb parents aren’t going to agree to anything that encourages their kids to think independently but plenty of other parents would.  My thought was, if kids get taken to actually vote before they’ve graduated from school, they’re more likely to do it when graduated because they’ll know the routine.   I’m not going to decide something is a bad idea because conservatives wouldn’t like it.  Most of what they would like are bad ideas.

    And yes, plenty of young people won’t vote because young people don’t vote because they’re young and that’s how it goes, but I would certainly support extending suffrage to 16-year-olds mostly because I trust 16-year-olds who actually plan to vote to make at least as informed a decision as half the adults I know, but also because, as was pointed out above, many of them work and are paying taxes and should get a say in where their tax money goes.

  123. 123.

    Nicole

    @Soprano2: That’s hilarious and I can absolutely see it being used as a custody issue.  Anything to punish the other parent.

    How’s your mom doing, by the way?

  124. 124.

    Suzanne

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: To quote Dr. Rachel Bitecofer:

    ”Now, IDK if its just that I’m one of fewer academics that come from the real, unpolished, bottom 50% world, and not the romanticized bullshit painted by J.D. Vance of working-class America- the real one where people have 3 kids from 3 different women and get angry when 1 of them is reticent to let them visit their kid when they get out jail. AGAIN.”

  127. 127.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Suzanne:

    “She really needs to stop being such a bitch about me riding the 4 year old around on my beater motorcycle without a helmet. We never left the neighborhood, and she had a great time. And I’d only had a couple of beers. And I swear to god, I’ll get the child support caught up – this is my first job after rehab!”

    (this is a fairly close paraphrase of a very real conversation I had).

  128. 128.

    smith

    @Kay: In a very real way Democrats, and especially “urban liberals” aren’t even relevant to any of it.

    But they’re quite happy  to be convinced that we are relevant, and in fact the cause of it. Somehow our advocating for the rights of urban POC caused their jobs to disappear and their children to move away.

  129. 129.

    Suzanne

    @smith: Again, quoting Bitecofer:

    ”In THAT working class, sexism, racism, xenophobia, and bigotry run rampant: and not only are these “isms” prevalent, there is a belief that they shouldn’t have had to be buried (see how that relates back to their culture war champion?) That the old days were far superior bc they could just call someone a f&g or slap their female co-worker in the ass is they were in the mood. There was a hierarchy, a caste @Isabelwilkerson notes, and they were at the top of it. Everything else might be a shit sandwich, their job, their house, their marriage, their debt, but that hierarchy & their place at the top of it- as Wilkerson notes in her book, that shit was SOLID. And now its gone. And do you know who took it? The Democrats.”

  133. 133.

    Suzanne

    @smith:

    But they’re quite happy  to be convinced that we are relevant 

    We are relevant, insofar as we destroyed their social hierarchy, built a new one, and are somewhat higher on it. Again, they didn’t just hate Obama because he’s black. They hate him because he’s black and cool and smart and is in shape and he has style and has a wife who is educated/smart/lovely and he’s aspirational. It is all class envy. Cowan is absolutely correct when he said that our politics is all about relative social status. Relative being the key word: they don’t care if government improves everyone’s lives as long as they are still on the top of that heap.

  134. 134.

    J R in WV

    Also, I’ve seen other posts calling Kinzinger and Cheney “anti-Trump Republicans.” You know, there is also the option of referring to them as “pro-democracy Republicans” or “anti-authoritarian Republicans.” We have a choice on how to frame this https://t.co/CVUBuiiRwX

    — Asha Rangappa

    What about “Non-Fascist Republicans”? Or is that too repressive to the other ProFascist Republicans?

    Which would be the vast majority of Republicans at this point.

  135. 135.

    zhena gogolia

    @debbie:
    Re our Uncle Vanya discussion yesterday — we watched Act 2 last night and it was much, much better. The woman playing Sonya is great. She and Astrov had a wonderful scene together.
    Of course, in Chekhov it’s shocking when Astrov on his drinking bout shows up “without his vest and tie.” In this version, that translates into him stripping to the waist and running out into a rainstorm so that he can have wet hair dripping into his eyes for the rest of the act. But I guess you don’t waste Richard Armitage on just having him take off his vest and tie

    ETA: And of course you were here 3 hours ago. I had to get to the grocery store before they started paving my street, so I completely missed this thread I was interested in.

  136. 136.

    Kent

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Wracking my brain trying to think of who else might be remotely appointable and not so scared of primary challenges from the right that they’d accept.

    Maybe some ancient ward heeler like Hal Rogers would do.

    Jaime Herrera Beutler in the WA-3rd who was one of those who voted for impeachment. Our “jungle primary” here in WA basically makes her immune from primary challenge from the rabid MAGA right and she needs to tilt centrist to win in this slowly blueing district.

  138. 138.

    Geminid

    @Suzanne: Political scientist Rachel Bitecofer is more than just a good number cruncher. I think Bitecofer’s outsider’s point of view makes her analysis that much more perceptive.

  139. 139.

    Ken

    Just to get this clear in my head, now that Pelosi has consulted McCarthy, who (mis)behaved as expected, Pelosi is free to appoint anyone she wants to the remaining open positions?

  143. 143.

    MontyTheClipArtMongoose

    @Kay: plenty of berniecrats & other anti-identitarian leftists, thomas frank types, also got turgid over hillbilly elegy.

  145. 145.

    zhena gogolia

    @debbie: We can only take one act per evening, but we did enjoy last night’s. I have high hopes for Act 3, since it’s the best act.

  147. 147.

    Ken

    @zhena gogolia: So, by pushing a list of unacceptable candidates, McCarthy has lost all control over the appointments.  Another Republican own goal in the investigation.

  148. 148.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Ken:

    No, THAT was a convo with another client who was having some trouble over beating his 14 year old for breaking into his room in order to steal weed.

    Me (observing his black diamond earrings, SS tats, swastikas, 13s, 1%, and northern Ohio biker accent): “So how many times have you taken him by the clubhouse?”

    Him (surprised): “Only a couple times, man. I transferred here to get away from them guys, I don’t ride with them no more and don’t want that life. I ride with a couple of guys and just have fun – we don’t do that stuff”.

     

    Great postscript: We go to court. The docket is huge. He starts glaring at some guy there in a coutte. I ask what the problem was – he says: “Man, if he was in MY club, we’d kick his ass. We have a rule – don’t wear the coutte to court. It makes the club look bad. I oughtta go kick his ass just for his club’s sake.”

  149. 149.

    Kay

    @MontyTheClipArtMongoose:

    Ugh. Thomas Frank. Created muddled, dumb liberal politics for decades. I just cringe when I see it.

    Just get clear on what YOU are and then you don’t have to worry about “outreach” to them. You’re not actually responsible for both sides of this relationship. They have as much a duty to understand you as you have to understand them.

    Sherrod Brown is a liberal in Ohio. He doesn’t go in and insist they sign on to his complete world view but on the other hand he doesn’t apologize for his world view or change it to meet their requirements. They can take what they agree with and leave the rest. You don’t have to turn into them and they don’t have to turn into you.

  150. 150.

    CaseyL

    @NotMax:   That is wonderful!  And I had to check their “About” page, because I could have sworn the woman was Mandy Moore.

  151. 151.

    Suzanne

    @Geminid: Dr. Bitecofer is really spot-on here, I believe. I think she nails much of why we need to say sayonara to those voters and build an enduring coalition without them.

  153. 153.

    Kay

    @MontyTheClipArtMongoose:

    I see Thomas Frank’s approach as defensive. Because he believes liberals are snobby elites he demands that you accept his evaluation and operate from a place where you’re snobby elites who are trying to understand the salt of the earth. I reject the whole premise. You should reject it to because it doesn’t “work” anyway. They’ll just see it as insincere because the whole premise is wrong.

    You can be exactly what you are and communicate with these people. That’s allowed. In fact, it is the ONLY way you’re ever going to have a real dialogue with them.

  155. 155.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:

     

    His campaign is an inter-Party GOP discussion – it’s about looking for reasons why poor and working class white conservative areas in Ohio are such a fucking disaster and the reasons CANNOT be in any way tied to conservative economic policy. That’s the role he fills and that’s why he gets 10 million dollars.

     

    Tell it, Kay.

     

    TELL IT.

  156. 156.

    debbie

    @Kay:

    What Sherrod has done is actually accomplish concrete things for voters who might not support him otherwise. It’s the smartest politics: Work for your constituents rather than scare them shitless over nonexistent dangers. Whoddathunk it?

  157. 157.

    Geminid

     

     

    @Suzanne: Bitecofer’s “Hate is on the Ballot” article in the February, 2020 New Republic is a good ten minute read. She previews the dynamic of the upcoming election in light of “negative partisanship.” She did not invent the concept, but does a good job explaining and applying it.

    Bitecofer also put out a concise tweet two months before last year’s election:

         2016 was a story of late breakers and third party defectors . 2020 will be a story of whose ballot gets counted.

  158. 158.

    Citizen Alan

    @Gin & Tonic: Yes! St. John’s has a row of converted townhouses for law students. So I’ll be sharing a 3-bedroom second-floor walk up about four blocks from campus with two other law students (who both look young enough to be my children). Now, I’m just working out the logistics of how to ship all my stuff up there so I can fly rather than drive a Uhaul van 1500 miles. :)

  159. 159.

    Kay

    @debbie:

    What Sherrod does is he skips the whole discussion of “what they are” or “what we are” and just makes his pitch. He’s not in the sociology business. He’s in the “meeting with constituents” business.

    They can then accept or reject but they’re not going to get any analysis of what they are from him and he’s not going to explain his entire world view to them. He does none of the folksy pandering or apologizing for his liberal views. That’s allowed. He has to accept them but they also have to accept what he is. That’s how real relationships work. They’re different! It’s not a deal breaker!

  160. 160.

    Ruckus

    @Suzanne:

    I had a job and paid taxes when I was 12 – family business, and I didn’t get to vote till I was 21 – and in the navy. And while I was not the oldest in my boot camp company I was still sometimes referred to as gramps.

  161. 161.

    artem1s

    @Nicole: I’m not arguing against suffrage because conservadumbs will act badly.  I’m merely pointing out that they will act badly and giving someone the right to vote doesn’t necessarily result in that person voting or having agency to vote – or vote the way they want.  We have a batshit crazy party whose main objective is to keep people from voting. We have numerous religious cults that believe only property owning white men should be allowed to vote.  Conservatives believe in restricting all agency of anyone not them.

    That’s the problem we need to address for all people – voting or not.  Lowering the voting age does not give 16 year olds agency when no agency exists in the first place – they can’t sign contracts or borrow money without their parents permission. They can’t even get a real history lesson right now because god forbid they might learn that Washington didn’t cut down the cherry tree or that the Confederacy lost.

    The VRA didn’t give POC  agency to vote in a world where no agency existed for POC – Jim Crow, gerrymandering, voter suppression.  Letting women have access to reproductive care – TRAP laws, etc.  LGBTQ to marry…. etc, etc, etc.  

    The bill was just put up for a vote and already the GOP is trying to figure out how to make sure only white male 16 year old votes get counted and only if Daddy is allowed to fill out their ballot for them.

  162. 162.

    Soprano2

    @Nicole: How’s your mom doing, by the way?

    Thanks for asking. She was still in an ER waiting room at 11:00 when I called this morning. The woman at the switchboard advised me not to call back until after 2:00. They were still running tests to try to figure out exactly what’s wrong, but the ER doc seems to think either pneumonia or something with her heart, or maybe both. Unfortunately you can’t talk to people who are in the ER waiting rooms, and she doesn’t have a cell phone. I’m hoping she’ll be in a room this afternoon so I can talk to her.

  164. 164.

    Kay

    I have a heartwarming story. My daughter had a great 4th grade teacher. So I was going thru old stuff I had saved and I found a story my daughter wrote (and illustrated!) in 4th grade that her teacher had bound into a “book” – she did this for all the students, like a big class project. I sent it to my daughter to read to HER daughter and she was really thrilled, remembered making it immediately.

    So you never know how long the work you do lasts.

  165. 165.

    Gravenstone

    @Nicole: Are you kidding? No way would Republicans countenance those damned liberal teachers taking their precious snowflakes to vote! Much better the family “pastor” do it…

  166. 166.

    James E Powell

    @Kay:

    I love women, you can put me down as pro-women, but I have yet to see any evidence at all that women vote for women because they’re women.

    Agreed.

    The last poll I saw was in June and Mandel/Timken was 45/22 with 33 undecided. So up for grabs, but Mandel is ahead for now.

  168. 168.

    Kay

    @James E Powell:

    I feel like women (including me!) want this to happen but it…hasn’t. Ever.

    It’s better really. There are a lot of horrible female pols. If what we want are characteristics that “read” as female then we should say that.

    I will say the evolution of this is a real success for liberals and Democrats. You’ll recall all that bullshit about the “mommy party” and how Al Gore was really a girl. That’s all gone. Now it’s okay to have a man who isn’t a belligerent douchebag. We outlasted Maureen Dowd.

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