Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Washington Post’s Catch and Kill, not noticeably better than the Enquirer’s.

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

When we show up, we win.

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

Never forget that he train is barreling down on Trump, even as he dances on the tracks.

The problem people have with Biden’s age is the color of the VPs skin.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

I was confident that someone would point it out and thought why not me.

ha ha ha! Nice try weird people.

Jack be nimble, jack be quick, hurry up and indict this prick.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

It’s a doggy dog world.

In my day, never was longer.

I really should read my own blog.

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

Quote tweet friends, screenshot enemies.

You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Wednesday Morning Open Thread: What We Consider Worth the Cost

Wednesday Morning Open Thread: What We Consider Worth the Cost

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Wednesday Morning Open Thread: What We Consider Worth the Cost

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128Comments

  3. 3.

    debbie

    @raven:

    Time to rewatch that.

    I feel very, very lucky this morning. Two goldfinches sat on the electric wire just outside my office window and sang away for a few minutes. I was surprised there were two of them, having thought there had only been one, and they were kind enough to stay still long enough for me to confirm I’d wrongly thought they were a warbler and to see their distinguishing markings (one’s wings had much more black than the other’s, while one’s head had much more black on it).

  4. 4.

    Immanentize

    Go Dogs, go (not you, Raven),

    Just a quick check in from the road. We got a late start yesterday (no surprise there) but made leg one — five states to Mechanicsburg PA by supper time. Almost no masks here, but a good vax rate. Saw one pick up idiot with a big flag on the back. Otherwise, normal PA life, as I remember it growing up in NY on the PA border. BTW, Phish was playing at Hershey but we had no tickets. Just as well, I’m sure, and luckily the Immp is not a fan.

    Off for Knoxville — another five states — in a few… I expect all new roads and bridges to be in place.

    Snarl lightly

  8. 8.

    Spanky

    No doubt the Imms are headed down I81. All you jackals out in the Valley remember to wave as they go by!

  11. 11.

    Quinerly

    Good morning! I got a bit of a shock yesterday. (or as my mom would have said, “wind knocked out of my sails.”) Finally went to my ObGyn after skipping my 2020 check up. She’s not only been my Dr since 1986; she’s also a friend. Not a close friend but friends enough that we know a lot about each other’s families and she has been to my home back when I had all day holiday bashes at Christmas time. Check up was fine, and we caught up on a lot of stuff. (She spent so much time with me that her nurse finally knocked to interrupt because other appts were backing up in the waiting room.) I asked her at some point for her opinion about my upcoming trip… Driving and camping thru Southern CO (with a several nights stay with a friend in CO Springs), then 2 months in New Mexico, and then driving and camping my way thru AZ. Her advice to me was to check all the info on my stops before spending anytime in an area….essentially check out the rates of infection in an area. And, that I  should also be concerned about Biden’s allowing unvaccinated people to pour over the border and head to the SW… Plus, how his administration is shuffling them around and thus causing infection rates to rise. I pushed back, but as you chicks know having this type of conversation while being examined is awkward to say the least. She kept saying “the border problem and the unvaccinated folks pouring in are major contributing factors to this spread.” I’m not looking for answers this AM. Just venting and feeling “down.” Cried in my car when I was leaving.

  14. 14.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Quinerly: I’m sorry your friend seems to have gone around the bend.  You’re not alone in having that happen, and believe me, I know what you mean about crying; I lost a very close friend to Trump, and even now, years later, sometimes I shed a few tears for losing him.

  17. 17.

    rikyrah

    @Quinerly:

    Sad for you

    People want to believe what they want

     

    Tell them the truth- that the government is giving the vaccine to the migrants.??

    Of course, anything to absolve blame of the hords of MAGA WHYTE PEOPLE WHO ARE UNVACCINATED IN THOSE STATES???

  21. 21.

    zhena gogolia

    @Quinerly:

    I had a similar shock with my dentist (although, you know, mouth and not that other thing). I dropped him (after 23 years) and never looked back.

  22. 22.

    Nicole

    @Immanentize: Mechanicsburg! I grew up there. Technically just outside of it, but Mechanicsburg was our post office. My stepmom has since moved to the east shore, but I saw the same; there was not a mask in sight in Harrisburg when I last visited a couple weeks ago. ?

    Continued safe travels for you guys!

  23. 23.

    Geminid

    If you add the $66 billion for rail, that’s $105 billion for public transit. We’ll need more, but I think we’ll get it in a few years. These infrastructure investments will get the U.S. economy humming like it hasn’t in decades, and the fiscal and political results will put the wind in Democratic sails.

  25. 25.

    Quinerly

    @rikyrah: thank you. I’m just so disappointed in people. Back to being angry much of the time. I had no idea that’s where the conversation would go. Oddly, she had just gotten back from visiting Carteret County, NC… Where my parent’s beach home was (I sold it 3/2020). The county is very right winged with lots of military retirees (it’s near Camp Lejeune and Cherry Point). Delta on the rise there with everyone fighting over vaccines and masks. One of her sons now lives there with his Navy wife. Personally, I would be more concerned about going in a restaurant in my old stomping grounds vs going into one in Santa Fe. Now, CO Springs (the “Most Godly City in America” as I was told last week) is another story. The 4 people I know who have gotten Delta breakthrough got it there while visiting from St. Louis.

  27. 27.

    Quinerly

    Thanks for all the kind words. Running late. Wednesday is JoJo’s school day. And “Good Dog Enrichment and Training” insists that you don’t call it doggie daycare. Small groups. It really is school. He’s doing something all day. Will check back in later. This blog “saves” me so often lately. I feel like my world just gets smaller and smaller.

  28. 28.

    satby

    @Quinerly: @rikyrah: @Dorothy A. Winsor: It’s the bigotry. Lots of stealth racists (stealth to their white friends, POC can spot them) who show their true colors in ways like that. “Migrants over the border” isn’t referring to undocumented Polish and Irish migrants, of which Chicago, for example, has plenty.  

  31. 31.

    rikyrah

    @satby:

    All through Dolt45’s term, I would comment that I was waiting for the news story out of Boston or Chicago about the raids gathering up illegal Irish and Polish immigrants…but, I never saw those stories???

  32. 32.

    germy

    @Quinerly:   I  should also be concerned about Biden’s allowing unvaccinated people to pour over the border and head to the SW… Plus, how his administration is shuffling them around and thus causing infection rates to rise.

    My MIL is a big Lester Holt fan.  Every night she watches NBC news.  He’s her trusted source.

    Last night he did a story about the unprecedented surge of migrants crossing the border, and their high rates of covid infections.

    So it isn’t just the usual suspects like Hannity or Carlson.  This stuff is spreading through “conventional” media.

    Lester Holt also reports on the “record breaking” crime wave, night after night.

    So far, not a peep about Rosen’s testimony, though.

  33. 33.

    Joe Falco

    @Geminid:

    I work for public transit so yeah, the money is much needed. There are plenty of projects that are languishing because no money has been allocated yet to move them forward. Recently, a proposed high-speed rail project connecting Charlotte and Atlanta completed the first tier of research that’s needed before any rail is laid down, and that was just figuring out the preferred route the rail line would take! The next tier would refine the alignment, verify station locations and suss out what the operating characteristics would entail such as speed, frequencies of stops, etc. That would cost $12M, but the actual price tag to construct the rail line could be anywhere between $6.2B – $8.4B! All in all, this infrastructure bill is a nice down-payment, but it’s nowhere near what’s truly needed.

  34. 34.

    Karen S.

    Returned yesterday from a short vacation to southwestern Michigan (South Haven to be exact). It was very relaxing, just what we needed. On Sunday, we drove out to a winery/cidery. On our way there we passed a home that was displaying a “Trump 2024” flag or banner in the front. All I could think was, “You f*cking losers. I hope you get caught up in one of the many Trumpland grifts and you get taken for everything you’ve got.”

    Then, we had a lovely time at the winery. We brought back a bottle of pear wine and two bottles of semi-dry hard (apple) cider. I was a bit bummed that they were out of pear cider, which I like a lot.

  35. 35.

    Nicole

    @Ken:

    His last missive implied that, but was vague on details. Very mysterious.

    @WaterGirl:

    Obviously an exploratory trip in anticipation of his 2024 run.  He’s going after the “with limited internet access” constituency.

  36. 36.

    Another Scott

    @Quinerly: It’s good that you pushed back – it’s important that she hears stuff from a different perspective.

    I thought our precinct was reliably Team D but recently checked and saw that about 24 more people voted for TFG than Biden-Harris.  (I think absentee votes are supposed to be assigned to the precinct, but I’m not positive.). Very disappointing, but we know that the country is closely divided…

    Reality always wins in the end.

    Hang in there.

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  37. 37.

    OzarkHillbilly

    ‘They rake in profits – everyone else suffers’: US workers lose out as big chicken gets bigger

    A few telling snippets:

    In Arkansas, where the multinational is headquartered, the company currently accounts for an estimated two-thirds of processed poultry sales, a joint investigation by the Guardian and the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) reveals.
    …………………………………
    The poultry industry in Arkansas has become dramatically less competitive since 2005 and is currently almost three times more consolidated than the antitrust threshold set by the Department of Justice. With 67% of poultry production sales, Tyson has been the biggest winner, our investigation found.

    As a near monopoly, Tyson can largely dictate worker wages and prices for farmers, as well as a whole range of conditions and regulations affecting everything from animal welfare to worker safety to environmental hazards.

    “The farmers are on a treadmill, earning only what the big corporations are willing to pay, regardless of the true labor and environmental costs,” said Joe Maxwell, president of Family Farm Action.

    The Guardian was unable to find a former or current contract Tyson farmer in Arkansas willing to be interviewed.
    ……………………………………..
    Jimenez works six days a week at the imposing slaughter and processing facility, including obligatory overtime every Saturday even though she’d rather be home with her children and grandchildren. If she doesn’t go in, Jimenez will get one to three punitive points; 14 points gets you fired.

    In the past, workers report, they earned two hours’ credit for every obligatory Saturday shift, but that benefit was cut several years back. Two half-hour breaks have been cut to one 20-minute break, during which workers must remove their protective gear, heat up their food, eat, go to the bathroom, redress, and be back on the line. Supervisors stand around the dining room, making sure no one is late back.

    “We barely have time to eat and it’s tense and uncomfortable with them watching us. I’m fed up but it’s hard to complain. They could fire me at any moment,” said Jimenez.
    …………………………………
    (The spokesman) added: “We have a very large immigrant workforce and this is, for us, a source of pride.”
    ……………………………………………
    Lopez was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2019 and needed time off for surgery and radiotherapy. Last year she was among dozens of workers in the plant to get Covid, and infected her husband, also a Tyson employee, who was off work recovering from surgery. He died three days later.

    “If the company had taken better care, I might not have gotten Covid and my husband would still be alive,” said Lopez in tears.

    Lopez is currently half a point away from being fired and believes she has been punished for taking off so much time over the past two years. “We just want to be treated with dignity and paid fairly, but most people are too scared to complain in case they get fired. My days are numbered at Tyson because I got sick.”
    ……………………………….
    “The pressure is horrific. Line speed is more important than safety; workers are stressed, tired and rushing around. That’s why so many people fall. The [subcontracted] cleaners complain about the same problem. They do what they can but the machinery often stinks and there are cockroaches inside.”

    Sanchez said he’s shown supervisors the cockroaches – as well as pointing out flies and crickets in the frozen blocks of ground chicken – but says he saw no action taken. The meat mixer just keeps on mixing.

    Last month, Sanchez said he alerted a supervisor to the cross contamination of chicken labelled antibiotic-free with other meat, but was told to carry on. The company has previously been sanctioned for misleading labels about antibiotic use.

    I have a number of friends who live on state highway 21 in NW Arkansas. It is as “Crooked and Steep” a road as there exists in AR and is a major route for gut wagons. It is a common occurrence for one to wreck and as bad as they smell just getting stuck behind one, you sure as shit don’t want to be involved in an accident with 20,000 gals of chicken guts.

  40. 40.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Immanentize:

    BTW, Phish was playing at Hershey but we had no tickets

    I’ll always remember a t-shirt slogan I saw many years ago in PVD.

    Jerry’s dead.

    Phish sucks.

    Get a job.

  42. 42.

    Leto

    @Immanentize: We’re right down the road, and you didn’t stop and say hi??? How dare you, good sir; how dare you! :P

    Hope you and the Immp are having a wonderful time. Just for the record: who’s controlling the radio/music app, and how’s that working out?

  43. 43.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Despite recent claims, migrants arriving at the U.S.-Mexico border are not driving the national surge in COVID-19 cases, public health experts say. @AP explains the facts. https://t.co/GyYFimbL60— The Associated Press (@AP) August 10, 2021

    "The key factors behind the recent spike in #COVID19 cases are people in U.S. communities who are unvaccinated and are not following guidance from CDC about the highly contagious delta variant, according to public health experts."LOOK IN THE MIRROR, AMERICA— Gabe Ortíz (@TUSK81) August 10, 2021

  44. 44.

    Quinerly

    @Gin & Tonic: love this. Would love to have that shirt. Most obnoxious fans I ever ran into at NOLA Jazz Fest back in the day were first time Festers there for Phish. Plus, they trashed our campground. Ugh.

  45. 45.

    Betty Cracker

    @germy: There’s an article at TPM that describes the origin of the rumor about a plot to release undocumented immigrants to infect Americans. It stems from a single incident at a Texas Whataburger.

  46. 46.

    Ohio Mom

    @Quinerly:
    It makes your earth shake to find out a friend isn’t who you thought they were. In a sense, you’ve been betrayed.

    But on a more pragmatic note: this doctor is not keeping up with the literature if she thinks undocumented people are the cause of this latest wave.

    What other data is she misinterpreting? Drop her for the sake of maintaining your good health.

  47. 47.

    Capri

    I can relate- took my husband to his doctor in March and there was still a Trump flag flying outside the office.  However, they are a direct primary care practice, and when you go to an “off the grid” MD you have to expect some lunacy in their politics.

  49. 49.

    Quinerly

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: pretty much what I told my doc. Hard to whip out sources when you are nekkid and feet are up in the stirrups, though. I guess I might as well chuckle over the circumstances of two women who have known each other 35 years gearing up for a full fledged argument about Biden/Harris immigration policy under those conditions. I was a big fan of Seinfeld. “What would Elaine have done?” It’s my nature to look for a modicum of humor when I just can’t face the alternative.

  50. 50.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @WereBear: Every time I read one of those stories, my commitment to raising our own chickens is reaffirmed. My Mennonite processer keeps his facility so clean you could almost eat off the floor.

  51. 51.

    Quinerly

    @WereBear: not so sure fully out of character. Like I said… A friend but a friend I only saw 2 times a year at the most. And socially it was on my turf with a crowd of folks from all walks of life coming and going for food and drink at a 12 hr party. She felt comfortable enough with me years ago to express her disdain for Obamacare. I let it slide. Never came up again.

  55. 55.

    Nicole

    @Cameron: I looked it up, because I didn’t know. He was born in Harrisburg, and grew up in Hummelstown which is on the east side of the Susquehanna, closer to Harrisburg then Mechanicsburg. It’s a super cute town, my uncle and aunt lived there for years, and it’s a shame to think that somebody like Newt came out of it. It’s a very right wing area though, so maybe not surprising.

  56. 56.

    Quinerly

    @germy: it will cost us 2022 and 2024. It’s been mainstreamed. Hope I’m wrong. Gotta get better messenging on this. It’s the main issue now in the comment sections of local papers that I follow in a lot of areas… Both Red and Blue areas.

  57. 57.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @Quinerly: No, it won’t. Too many of the wrong people are dying, and big business can’t afford another lockdown. I think the GOP will, as usual, pretend that Covid never happened in 2024 and they’ll find another target for their Two Minute Hate.

  58. 58.

    Geminid

    When I think of high speed rail, I am reminded of all the concrete and steel that it takes to build it. Concrete production is estimated to account for 8% of CO2 emissions world wide. Steel production puts out a smaller but still significant amount. The concrete industry js now putting resources behind reducing it’s carbon footprint. They’ve really only begun, though. I think they’ll have made real progress by the end of this decade.

    So even though the carbon footprint of building high speed rail would be “amortized” over this investment’s lifetime, it still must be debited some on the carbon side.

    Materials research will play a big role in the clean energy transition, and in a lot of areas. One area will be structural building components. Yesterday, someone spoke of the Zairan(?) materials engineer who was making bricks out of plastic waste. Her factory is making only 1500 bricks a day now, but in ten years her outfit could be producing large culverts and small bridges. Licensees could be producing many more, and rail traffic may be passing over them.

  59. 59.

    Citizen Alan

    @zhena gogolia:   My dermatologist,  who I do not plan to ever see again, seemed to take pleasure in giving unsolicited political commentary while slicing into my cheek witth an electrified needle  to remove a cyst before stitching it up.

  60. 60.

    germy

    @Quinerly:

    The not so subliminal message from Lester Holt’s news (and CBS and ABC) is “Elect Democrats, expect crime, disease, illegals, and inflation.”

    “Gas prices are up! ‘Illegal aliens’ are swarming the border! There’s a crime wave! And Biden Is spending too much money!”

    Most people don’t spend time reading blogs like this for the truth. Instead they skim headlines and internalize corporate propaganda.

  63. 63.

    Joe Falco

    @Quinerly:

    If that was the case, all those “stories” of the “invading migrant caravans” that was pushed hard during the 2018 midterms by TFG, other Republicans and Fox would’ve turned the Blue Wave of that cycle into a puddle and the Democrats wouldn’t have taken back the House. How much the lies of diseased hordes breaking through our sacred border will energize Repubs to vote, we won’t know for any certainty until much later, but it’s far too soon to think the Repub’s usual fear-mongering about migrants will be that consequential.

  64. 64.

    persistentillusion

    @Quinerly: ​
      COS isn’t that bad. When I moved here almost 30 years ago, the retired military and conservatives had a firm hold on everything. One whispered “i’m a democrat…” Now, it’s more like “I’M A DEMOCRAT.” There’s still a ways to go, but we’ve come a long way as well.

  65. 65.

    Joe Falco

    @Geminid:

    You also have to consider other environmental impacts as well such as animal habitat loss and fragmentation, potential loss of wetlands and prime farmland, stormwater runoff, wildlife collisions, etc. It takes a lot of research and, sadly, determining who are going to be the biggest losers for any project. The best you can do is mitigate the damage the most you can.

  66. 66.

    Geminid

    @Joe Falco: High speed rail is an attractive option. But what if a Charlotte-Atlanta high speed rail line wasn’t built for twenty years, and in meantime existing rail was improved and expanded, and air transport shifted to carbon neutral fuel. Inexpensive electric and fuel cell powered buses running up and down I-85 would not produce any more CO2 than electric high speed trains. Once production of carbon neutral aviation fuel is scaled up and phased in, air travel will still be affordable to those in a hurry. And by 2040, there may be hydrogen fueled airliners. Airbus is on the job, and I suspect Boeing and the Chinese are also.

  67. 67.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Quinerly: Santa Fe is good, although the huge influx of tourists from MAGA states (looking at you, Texas) is concerning. I’ve gone back to wearing masks in public and only eating outside at restaurants (and that seldom).

    I’ve also noticed a significant uptick in people wearing masks in stores. Not as many as during the height of the previous wave, but a lot more than during the two (?) weeks of illusory freedom we enjoyed.

  68. 68.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Two days ago I had to flee my home and life in the north of Afghanistan after the Taliban took my city. I am still on the run and there is no safe place for me to go.

    Last week I was a news journalist. Today I can’t write under my own name or say where I am from or where I am. My whole life has been obliterated in just a few days.

    I am so scared and I don’t know what will happen to me. Will I ever go home? Will I see my parents again? Where will I go? The highway is blocked in both directions. How will I survive?

    My decision to leave my home and life was not planned. It happened very suddenly. In the past days my whole province has fallen to the Taliban. The only places that the government still controls are the airport and a few police district offices. I’m not safe because I’m a 22-year-old woman and I know that the Taliban are forcing families to give their daughters as wives for their fighters. I’m also not safe because I’m a news journalist and I know the Taliban will come looking for me and all of my colleagues.

    It’s sad, but it was still long past time we got out of there.

  69. 69.

    Another Scott

    @Quinerly: It’s just the GQP doing what they always do – throwing every outrageous charge at Democrats and seeing what sticks, then pushing and pushing and pushing that meme.

    I don’t think it’s working, myself.  I think it’s working less well every day.  When Democrats turn out, Democrats win – we’ve seen that since January 2017.

    Remember, they’ve been pushing this Wall stuff for years.  They’re getting defunded now, and the courts are smacking down the performative border BS by GQP governors.  Kamala went to Teh Border and took their talking point away, while she also does the hard work of actually trying to reduce the numbers of people fleeing toward the border in the first place.

    Yes, there will be setbacks.  Progress isn’t linear.

    But they’re losing.  They’re pushing this Border BS because it’s all they have.

    Hang in there.  Keep motivated to push forward.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  70. 70.

    Chetan Murthy

    @OzarkHillbilly: We were there 20 years.  In that time, an entire generation of children were born and raised to adulthood.  If they wanted Afghanistan to be liberal, they would have been raised to that end.  They don’t.  We’re imposing our ideas of what their society should be like.  And unless we want to be occupiers literally forever, we can’t succeed in that.  B/c it seems clear they’re not for changing.

  73. 73.

    Quinerly

    @O. Felix Culpa: keep in touch with lots of close friends out Highway 14 way and downtown. Heard reports of so many Texan tourists. Pretty sure I’m not backing out of my rental casita in the Railyard District for Oct and Nov. I can hunker down and be safe there as easily as I can be in St Louis… Albeit it an expensive hunker if I really can’t get out and do some of the stuff I like to do. I’m in a quandary about the CO leg for Sept. I say camping my way across the southern portion of the state but I still like restaurants and shops, little local obscure county/town museums/historic sites. I started planning this trip in December to keep me sane pre vaccine. I’m not prone to drama or crazy worry. But  my biggest concern is I catch Delta in Sept….On strange turf with JoJo in a van/tent. As you know, I travel alone. Just something I am thinking about.

  74. 74.

    Quinerly

    @germy: you have a finger on the pulse of this. Border issues.

    Inflation, thrown in “rise in prices has wiped out all raises in salaries/hrly wages.”

  76. 76.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Quinerly: You already know this, but since you’re vaccinated, you should be fine as long as you wear a mask indoors and around groups of people. I’m flying to Germany next week, so I have anxiety flutters too. :)

    ETA: By flutters, I mean something closer to anxiety attacks, but not quite enough to cancel my trip.

  77. 77.

    Joe Falco

    @Geminid:

    That’s a lot of “what if” for a multi-faceted problem that doesn’t have a single, clear answer. High speed rail is not meant to be the solution but just one part of it. And yes, local rail and bus systems could be improved, and I hope it does, but that too is only a part of the transportation network. Any transportation project is expected to take years of building and even more years of upkeep. I’ve read about the aerotropolis of the future, and that too will cost time and money. There’s a reason why transportation departments at the state and federal levels are constantly evaluating and reevaluating their transit plans because everything constantly changes. We look at population trends, consult with stakeholders, examine new technologies, etc. At the end of the day though, we are trying to give people the best options to get where they need to go because everyone’s needs are different. We are building a network, and it’s always going to be improved and replaced. If you have the money and political power to do it.

  79. 79.

    Geminid

    @OzarkHillbilly: Our military are all but out of the country proper, but we are now bombing Taliban forces. We held off most of 2020 and the first part of this year, but now U.S. Air force jets including B-52s are attacking the Taliban.

    Whether this makes a difference is in question. The Taliban have the Afghan army on the run and have captured a at least six provincial capitals. But major strongholds besides Kabul are not yet conquered.

    One of these is the western city of Isfahan, third largest in Afghanistan. The reporting out of that city is interesting. Grizzled warlord Ismail Khan is mobilizing fighters, including veterans who fought with him against the Russians. Many of their sons and and some of their daughters are joining also. Afghan Army soldiers are deserting to Khan’s forces, saying they want to serve under a commander who, unlike their officers, will fight.

    Meanwhile in the south, Taliban commanders are taking down the names of unmarried women. The commanders have promised their fighters wives when they win.

  80. 80.

    Citizen Alan

    @zhena gogolia:

    My dentist, OTOH, I will miss terribly when I move because his whole office was an anti-Covid machine. Even now, you can’t sit in the waiting room. You check in and wait in your car for a masked employee to come out, check your temperature, ask some questions and escort you in.

  81. 81.

    Another Scott

    @germy: I think the TV news people are desperate for viewers, especially after the TV audience was so small for the Olympics.

    The local NBC station in DC is owned by Comcast.  They were pushing the Olympics hard when they were on (like 40-50% of the 11 o’clock “news”).  When they’re not doing that, everything else has a “BREAKING NEWS” chyron. Even the weather is going to kill us all if we don’t tune in.

    They have to keep people anxious and fearful to get viewers.

    We also need to remember that news audiences are much, much more fractured now than the days of Walter and Chet and David and John. AdWeek from June 29:

    NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt averaged 6.55 million total viewers and 1.21 million adults 25-54 on linear in Q2 2021. That’s +33% more than CBS in total viewers, and +41% more in the key demo. Similar to ABC (and CBS, as we’ll soon see), NBC lost viewers from Q1 2021, -18% in total viewers, and -23% among adults 25-54. Compared to the prior Q2, Nightly News shed -27% of its average total viewers and -38% of its A25-54 audience.

    Relative to the same quarter four years ago, Nightly News shed -14% of its average total audience and -30% of its A25-54 audience.

    Eyes on the prizes.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  82. 82.

    Miss Bianca

    @Quinerly: It’s always hard to have to tell your medical practitioner they’re full of it. I avoid conversations about anything except medical issues with my current nurse practitioner, because I suspect she’s a Trumper.

  84. 84.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Geminid: I don’t mean this in an unkind way, but: for twenty years these people were unwilling to lift a goddamn finger to defend themselves.  I don’t have any belief that they’re gonna a good goddamn thing now.

    I remember all those years, all those retraining initiatives, all that money, for basically nothing.  And meanwhile, the Taliban, with none of that, had dedicated soldiers.  Effective soldiers.  I’m unconvinced anybody but the Taliban can win: the rest are just a buncha warlord militias.  And that’s a pity.  But really, it was always going to be like this.  Nobody should be surprised.

  85. 85.

    germy

    @Another Scott:

    Yes.  ABC News with David Muir is so dramatic that it’s almost comedy.

    Each nightly episode begins with a dramatic drum crash and Muir intoning “Breaking news!!” about a story I’d read about here at 6am.

  88. 88.

    Another Scott

    @Ken: Heh.

    Unfortunately for them, though, most people have these things called “smart phones” which can give them accurate weather information instantly – they don’t have to wait until ~ 1125 PM to know anymore.  ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  89. 89.

    germy

    @Chetan Murthy:

    A friend of my nephew enlisted and is now home with PTSD and severe hearing loss.

    He says one of the local soldiers they were training turned his gun on American troops.

    Lester Holt and other anchors are constantly reciting the price of Biden’s initiatives.  I’ve never heard those anchors mention the price of America’s costliest war.

  90. 90.

    germy

    @sdhays:

    She’ll be holding a press conference today.

    I know Andy is sticking around for a few more weeks, but as far as I’m concerned she’s my governor now.

  91. 91.

    Denali

    @Quinerly,

    When my sister was visiting me from Texas, I was a bit surprised when she stated that she would not move to New Zealand because it was socialist- and she pretty much agrees with me politically. The news media as certainly tainted the word socialism.

  92. 92.

    frosty

    @Quinerly: Have a great trip! My favorite place to camp in AZ last year was Fool Hollow State Park. Second favorite from this year was Dead Horse Ranch State Park. The Colorado River parks were meh.

    Haven’t had much success finding nice places to stay in NM. So far it’s been KOAs.

  93. 93.

    Kay

    @germy:

    Sexual harrassment in the workplace hasn’t been a politically beneficial issue for Democrats. I don’t think it’s done anything to increase their share of white women as Democratic voters. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t do it, and I’m really pleased they are standing up as far as Cuomo – it’s a “rule of law” issue for me along with a feminist issue-  but it seems every cycle we wait for the “white college educated female” vote to move as a result of this issue and it just never has. It probably WILL but changing norms takes time.

    It’s not a slam dunk for D’s, politically. On this one they’re a little ahead of voters – not BAD that they are but I think it’s important we acknowlege it. If sexual harrassment is important to white college educated women as an issue they (we) are going to have to start voting on it, at least in part.

  94. 94.

    Geminid

    @Joe Falco: Very true. But electric and fuel cell powered inter-city buses and carbon neutral aviation fuel are coming for sure, and won’t require large infrasture investments. As you point out, taking carbon out of transport requires a wholistic analysis. But when I research “clean energy” and topics relating to transport, I am optimistic about the technology side. I think the “Green New Deal” is happening now. It just needs to be turbocharged by government, and the two infrastructure bills will help do this.

  96. 96.

    Geminid

    @Chetan Murthy: The will of the Afgans fighting the Taliban is much maligned. But they are fighting an experienced, ruthless opponent that is well suppied from Pakistan. If Afghany forces were as hapless as you say, the Taliban would have taken the country ten months ago. Our forces have been out of that fight since trump started negotiations. Sure, some Afghan forces have been running, but crappy leadership at higher levels including civilian have undermined morale. And plenty of government soldiers have been fighting, and dying.

  99. 99.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Geminid: How many times as the US stood up an Afghan army, only to have it fall apart N months later?  I’m sorry, but this is bullshit: we all know that twenty years has produced mostly vapor.  Sure, there are some soldiers who don’t suck.  But TWENTY YEARS of investment, and they get rolled-over by the Taliban like so much papier-mache.

    For an analogy: look at the difference between the Iraqi army we tried to stand up, and the PMUs that Iran stood up.  One of those had actual reason to fight, and it sure wasn’t the army we stood up.

  100. 100.

    Geminid

    @Chetan Murthy: It could be that nobody but the Taliban can win. But they still may not win. There could be a defacto partition of the country. I think we’ll know by the end of this month. I am not exactly rooting for more fighting and bloodshed. But the Taliban in Afghanistan are ruthless and callous, and they will slaughter their enemies where they can. As one of the fighters in Isfahan put it, better to die fighting than to be hunted down and killed like rabbit.

    The entire 4 million Hazara population will be particular targets. People remember the Taliban’s destruction of the Buddhist statues in Bamiyan, in the Hazara heartland. The Taliban’s repression of the Hazaras was far worse. The Hazara are Sh’ite, and have always been a thorn in the Taliban’s side. If the Taliban retake the Hazara homeland, they will be merciless. Even if I could, I would not stop the Hazaras from resisting if they want too.

  101. 101.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Geminid: 100% agree with your last sentence, and with your assessment and condemnation of the Taliban.  They’re evil motherfuckers.

  102. 102.

    Geminid

    @Chetan Murthy: Don’t really need an analogy. I am looking at what you are looking at, and see it differently. But you are very vehement about the worthlessness of Afgan fighters opposed to the Taliban. I think there is some exageration here, and I wonder why.

  103. 103.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I’m ambivalent about Biden’s Afghanistan policy, I’m glad I didn’t have to make that decision, but these tweets are persuasive to me, and in the end I have to conclude Biden made the right decision (and if my memory of who these two people are is correct, they are not people I would typically agree with)

    Stephen Wertheim @stephenwertheim 19h
    The real choice confronting Biden was withdraw or escalate. Few openly advocate the latter.

    John Hudson @John_Hudson· 20h
    In light of the Taliban offensive in Afghanistan, State Dept spox notes that if US had violated Trump’s deal and decided to stay and fight in Afghanistan, the few thousand US forces on the ground would not have been able to fend off an offensive of this magnitude

  104. 104.

    kindness

    I see Twitter in their wisdom is not letting me click More Replies to tweets any longer unless I sign up for an account.  That is some 1st Class Buttheadism.  The jokes on them.  All this means is I will spend even less time on Twitter than I already do.  I’m not signing up for that bullshit.  I like my life.  Why would I want to imperil my mental health by subjecting myself to even more Twitter madness?

  105. 105.

    Betty Cracker

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think that’s correct too. It’s horrible that the country — or at least significant parts of it — will be overrun by bloodthirsty fanatics. But maintaining the 20-year status quo would have been a bad option for America even if it were available, and it’s pretty clear that was not an option anyway.

  108. 108.

    Another Scott

    @Chetan Murthy: Yes and no, IMHO.

    Yes, the government there had little incentive to fight as if their lives depended on it when the US and NATO were doing much/most of the fighting.  That has changed over the years, but apparently not enough (at least according to the news reports we’re getting).

    But as long as Pakistan did little or nothing to prevent their Afghan Taliban allies / proxies / clients / whatever from continuing to fight, and as long as the “tribal areas” are so porous, then even the best of militaries would have a very tough time. And, ultimately, all the Taliban had to do was wait long enough for external support to fall – the country is too poor to hold off an externally funded and supported insurgency on its own.

    AlJazeera collected headlines:

    Turkey still keen to run Kabul airport despite Taliban advances, officials say

    Turkey is for now still intent on running and guarding Kabul airport after other foreign troops withdraw from Afghanistan, but is monitoring the situation after rapid advances by Taliban forces, two Turkish officials said.

    The Taliban have warned Turkey against keeping troops in Afghanistan to guard the airport but Ankara has maintained its stance.

    […]

    Pakistan ‘engaging all stakeholders’ – foreign minister

    Pakistan’s foreign minister on Wednesday told reporters that his country will continue to play its role to facilitate the Afghan peace process as the Taliban gains more ground in Afghanistan.

    “Our delegation is in Doha right now,” Shah Mahmood Qureshi said, referring to ongoing peace talks hosted by Qatar.

    Qureshi said Pakistani officials there are “engaging with all stakeholders for the promotion of peace and stability in Afghanistan”.

    […]

    Taliban could take Kabul in 90 days: US intelligence

    Taliban fighters could isolate Afghanistan’s capital in 30 days and possibly take it over in 90, a US defence official tells the Reuters news agency, citing US intelligence.

    The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, says that the new assessment of how long Kabul could stand is a result of the rapid gains the Taliban had been making around the country as US-led foreign forces leave.

    “But this is not a foregone conclusion,” the official adds, saying that the Afghan security forces could reverse the momentum by putting up more resistance.

    […]

    It’s very complicated.

    We’ll see.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  110. 110.

    trollhattan

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: The speed at which the Taliban are taking territory is eerily reminiscent of South Vietnam’s fall and a good indicator the result is baked in. All we were doing there was stalling the inevitable.

    What makes it awful is the different longterm outcomes for the two nations. Nothing about the Taliban indicates they will become less strident and autocratic with time, assuring the population will live under cruelty and half will be treated less than fully human.

    Who is arming the Taliban is a whole other topic. In addition to Pakistan (our good friends) Iran seems likely. Russia? There’s also a sideshow with ISIS that has the Taliban fighting two battles.

  111. 111.

    Another Scott

    @trollhattan: Putin doesn’t like nearby extremists that he can’t control or coop.  Relationships between him and the Afghan Taliban are definitely worth watching.

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  112. 112.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Chetan Murthy: 100% agree with your last sentence, and with your assessment and condemnation of the Taliban. They’re evil motherfuckers.

    I had the odd experience of working with an ex-member of the Taliban from Kandahar. No surprise since part of the town I live in is called Little Kabal from all the Afghans that live there. Nice guy, the way he described it sounded like Mad Max; gun rentals, anytime you wanted to celebrate, start shooting, have a dispute, start shooting. He also said their was a Hindu neighborhood no Talabin dared go into because there were people lurking in the shadows who would shoot them. His main complaint about the US is he had trouble taking the risk seriously after living constantly with guns being waved in face by people who had killed before.

    Anyway,  coworker decided it was time to get out of Afghanistan because some other faction had marked him for death over some dispute. Some guy snuck up behind him and was going to shoot him in the head, but the cheep rental gun jammed and the coworker beat the guy  senseless with his cellphone.

  113. 113.

    Quinerly

    @frosty: thread be dead.

    But if you come back, my CO parks for one night only b/c will be on the move are John Martin, Lathrop, Trinidad, Navajo Lake, Ridgway (3 nights) and Mancos. 2 nights at Mesa Verde, 1 night at Great Sand Dunes, and 2 nights Grand Canyon North Rim. In Dec I’m 6 nights in a camper cabin at Dead Horse Ranch SP. Also nights at Catalina, Lost Dutchman, Patagonia Lake, Chiricahua, all in AZ. And nights in Elephant Butte, Oliver Lee, and Pancho Villa in NM at the very beginning of Dec. Thanks for the well wishes!

  117. 117.

    Geminid

    @Chetan Murthy: Neighboring countries may intervene now that the U.S. is out. Pakistan has backed the Taliban throughout, but India and Iran might not want to see Pakistan’s proxy control the entire country. Isfahan, for example, is the major center for Iran-Afghan trade.

    The Iranians might keep out of it. After all, they got along with the Taliban when it was in power. But if the Iranians decide to back warlord Ismail Khan, I don’t think the Taliban will throw his forces out of Isfahan. The Iranians may also back the Hazara. The only way to protect the Hazara is to keep the Taliban out of their homeland. If the Hazara fight they might get help from their fellow Sh’ites in Iran.

    The Iranians stay involved in countries to their west, and don’t seem to have any scruples about regional interventions. Isfahan is in their backyard to the east. Iran has the experience and resources to sponsor a breakaway province or two, assuming their Afghan allies are willing to fight for this. But like I said, I think we will know about the fate of Afghanistan and it’s people by the end of this month.

  118. 118.

    Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)

    @Quinerly: Sadly, it’s likely that most of us jackals have lost at least one friend to TFG or Covid, or both. My sympathies, as we’re in the same boat.

  119. 119.

    Quinerly

    @Miss Bianca: my visit there is a bit broken up. Reasons! Logistics!

    I’m in the campground nights of 9/11 and 9/13. Night of 9/12, I’m in a hotel in Alamosa. Feel free to get my email from a Frontpager. Would love to connect.

  120. 120.

    frosty

    @Quinerly:  We liked Catalina and Lost Dutchman too. They were part of our 2020 COVID-caused month of touring AZ state parks.

    We saw 16 National Parks this year. One night at Great Sand Dunes was plenty. We stayed longer at Black Canyon and loved it.

    Looks like we won’t cross paths this time around. Southern route to California in March/April then north to Oregon and head east after that.

     

    ETA: the thread was only mostly dead, not all dead.

  121. 121.

    J R in WV

    @rikyrah: 

    @WaterGirl:

    I just thought that Baud was taking a break..

    He specifically said he would be where there was no reliable internet connection… so travel of some sort was seriously implied.

  122. 122.

    Quinerly

    @frosty: the second night at Great Sand Dunes is just an easy, cheap place to crash for the night. My tourist day doing tourist stuff there is the first day and night. That hotel in between is to clean up, shower, and tool around the area south and east of Alamosa. Second camp night in GSD is after being around Crestone all day. Like I said, cheap place to sleep in the van. Thanks for piping in. I’m considering Utah again Fall of 2022.? I feel like March, 2017 trip was just reconnaissance. ?

  123. 123.

    Geminid

    @Quinerly: Alamosa is a great place for walking. It has wide streets and sidewalks and it is flat. There is a park along the Rio Grande three blocks from downtown, with a pedestrian  bridge  and miles of trails. A nice town, with several restaurents and a bookstore. You will love it.

  126. 126.

    geg6

    @Citizen Alan: ​
     
    Mine, too. In fact, he let some of his dental techs go because they were too lax with mitigation procedures. Have to say I’m surprised because I know he’s a Republican. But, apparently, he’s not stupid. Just greedy.

  127. 127.

    grubert

    @Gin & Tonic:

    In my circles I’m the odd man out.. I don’t like Phish at all.

    Despite being advanced technicians at their instruments and able to sing in tune, their music is shallow, silly, tedious and annoying.. totally lacking in soul or gravitas. Or lust, or … just about any human emotion that might make you care.

  128. 128.

    Groucho48

    @germy: as he sits at the perfect angle to show the drape of his suit and one inch of snowy white cuffs. He just strikes me as someone who spends a lot of time practicing poses in front of a mirror, as opposed to digging up facts and researching stories.

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