For the umpteenth time in the last few months, my power has been on and off all damned day because of the storms, which are not going to go away but just keep getting worse and worse over the years, and I have caught a case of the ass am officially fucking over it. You can’t do anything when it happens because it is either raining or snowing like hell out, or too dark, and sooner or later we’re gonna lose power for an extended period of time.
This didn’t use to be so annoying because I would just sit on the porch and drink. But, you know, that is not an option anymore.
So what do you know about them?
Betsy
Nothing. But yesterday:
https://www.wral.com/conservative-nc-lawmaker-ill-wife-hospitalized-with-covid/19823341/
And then, today:
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article252162998.html
John Harrold
I live in California in a place where we get our power shut off for days at a time because PG&E didn’t bury their power lines. Last year we got a Generac 22kW unit. It runs off of natural gas and has worked really well. Runs the whole house and we only loose power for a moment until it kicks in. Its expensive though.
Anon
I got a quote for one five years ago, I think $15K installed, for my new house. But turns out unnecessary as my neighborhood has buried power lines.
Maybe if someone has a medical equipment that needs powering, but unless you have $15k to light on fire, seems better just to have a portable for the essentials. I’m getting a transfer switch installed for a portable to run the furnace motor in the winter and that’s about it.
Poe Larity
I can’t find any portable coal powered generators, so you’ll need something fueled beyond what you can dig out of the back yard.
Tjlabs
After Sandy, when we lived in New Jersey we had a whole house Generac generator installed. When we moved to Florida this year the first thing we did was to order the same in our new house. They are very efficient and are based upon how much you want to power in an emergency. They run on either natural gas or propane. As soon as the power goes out, the generator automatically turns on. When the power comes back on, it shuts itself down. Ain’t cheap but worth every penny for peace of mind. And they’re amazingly relatively quiet.
Motivated Seller
Install a solar array, and put aside a little extra for battery storage. It won’t power the whole house (not for long anyway), but you’ll be doing the planet a solid.
PaulWartenberg
My librarian senses kicked in and I went looking for reviews. I found this article:
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-myth-of-whole-home-battery-backup
PaulWartenberg
Found an article that compares battery backups to generators:
https://news.energysage.com/battery-backup-power-vs-generators-which-is-right-for-you/
zhena gogolia
Ours is a Briggs & Stratton. We got it before the supposedly quieter ones came in. It’s noisy. But it has saved our butts a few times.
PaulWartenberg
Also wik:
https://www.treehugger.com/best-home-battery-storage-systems-5192244
KT
Generac system. I have had one for years and with yearly maintenance, it has saved my ass numerous times. I have sump pumps in my basement.
PaulWartenberg
Okay, last one I’m throwing at you:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/best-home-battery/
Barbara
We run our refrigerator off of a power inverter that we attach to our car battery. I might consider a generator if we didn’t have gas stove top and hot water, which continue to work when the power goes out. Yes, agreed, it’s happening more frequently.
TammieKinNC
Alternative option: Buy an electric car and run your house off the batteries. I’ve got the car (2017 Bolt) but now I need to look into what is needed to power my house from the car — but like you said, the power is on now so no need.
David Fud
If you are willing to go with a lower budget, more manual version of a backup, I would recommend a Jackery 1000: https://www.amazon.com/Jackery-Portable-Explorer-Generator-Emergency/dp/B083KBKJ8Q/
I used it to go on a trip to power a small AC unit for two nights, and to power a portable freezer unit. It worked really well in that context.
So, if you are talking a few hours, this thing will keep your food cold and your computer working. If you would like something that could be also used in a portable application, this is your ticket. Maybe that isn’t enough, and you need to spend $15k. I dunno. But I thought I would put this option out there.
Haroldo
We had installed a turn-key, LP fired Kohler generator. We’ve got many, many birds and we’d like them to survive a power outage in the winter – they can occur here in NE Massachusetts. 20 kW (power is relatively cheap). About $12,000, go to whoa. Not cheap, but no frozen birds.
emrys
We are in the Big Bend of Florida (hello Fred). After Michael came within 40 miles, we, too, got a whole house Generac that works on natural gas. While most lines in the subdivision are buried, there are lots of above ground lines to connect to the substation and tons of trees and canopy roads. Had two outages in the past week because of limbs on lines. It meant taking out a HELOC, but worth it.
The Moar You Know
They’re expensive, and you REALLY need them done to code with the whole house auto-disconnect thing that trips before the generator starts – it takes your whole house off the grid so you don’t kill any linemen working on your circuit.
I don’t know if this is something you’ve been dealing with all your life in West VA, but here in SoCal, until the Enron fuckery in the late 90s, the power never used to go off. Since 2010 I can now count on the power going off at least five times a year. The infrastructure is broken. It’s going to stay broken because the 1 trillion dollars we’re trying to throw at it is nowhere near enough.
James E Powell
All I know about those generators is what I learned in movies & TV shows: when they are desperately needed they either don’t work or inexplicably malfunction right after giving a glimmer of hope. Cf. The warp engines or transporter every third episode of Star Trek.
Another Scott
There must be a dozen Generac whole-house things in our natural gas NoVA neighborhood. Various vintages. When there’s an outage, you can hear several of them. They’re loud. They seem pretty reliable – I never notice any of them being worked on. I think they kick on once a month to make sure they work, but I can’t say I notice that.
Our nearly 60 old home has an ancient circuit breaker box that I want to get replaced and upgraded so we can do home charging of eventual electric car(s), and some other changes. And we have talked about solar panels for the roof. And we have had extended power outages at times (one time in winter when we got a couple of feet of heavy snow that brought trees down. An elderly woman down the street who used oxygen died because she had no power for her concentrator and oxygen delivery trucks couldn’t navigate the streets… :-( ), and once we had to be up at 2 AM when a thunderstorm dumped a mountain of water on us and we had to bail out the sump pump well because the power was out and we were risking the basement getting wet, so at least having the option for adding whole-house generator is appealing (home solar puts power on the grid, so if the grid goes down, you still lose power). We have a 5kW gas generator that we can drag out, but that can only run the refrigerator and a few space heaters… A PowerWall would be nice, but they don’t have the capacity for extended outages for a sensible amount of money. One of these days I’ll finally decide to get quotes on all this stuff… :-/
We’ve got several buildings at work that have big Kohler generators. I don’t think they make normal-house sized ones. It would be nice if Honda made them, but I don’t think they do either. But there are other brands for normal house-sized generators. But, honestly, it probably makes sense to get a Generac given their ubiquity.
Do you have a portable one? A 3-6 kW one can be very handy for keeping your sanity when the power is out for more than half a day or so. And much, much less spendy.
My $0.02. HTH a little.
Cheers,
Scott.
HeleninEire
I grew up on Long Island. Occasionally our lights would go off. Here in NYC my lights never go off. And it occurred to me (stupidly) that those lines??? you know those lines that are up there on the telephone poles?? Yeah. Those lines are underground in NYC.
Anon
@Barbara: this. I would install gas everything before in investing in generator
Mike in NC
We spoke to my brother and his wife tonight, and they basically said it rained damn near every day in July on the south shore of Boston. We could use that here.
Skepticat
Our first five years in The Bahamas, everyone on the cay (all ten houses) used a one-lunger Lister generator. Once we got real power, most people disposed of them, but after Dorian, they were priceless. Most houses do have big diesel generators (though diesel was $7 a gallon when I left last month). All that said, I’d strongly suggest you go solar.
FlyingToaster
@Mike in NC: Yeah, in July we had like 3 days without rain, and the second rainiest month in history (and we’ve been recording this stuff since the 1880s).
June was hotter than July. And so is August, but the incessant rain and smell of mildew* has finally gone away.
*I live two blocks off the Mighty Charles.
Another Scott
@HeleninEire: Burying powerlines absolutely should be done. But one still has to maintain underground utilities.
Wired – Explaining DC’s Exploding Manholes (from 2013):
Cheers,
Scott.
Martin
My opinion is to listen to PaulWartenberg above. Go with a whole house battery. You don’t know where fuel prices and availability will go over time (¼ of the nations gas stations have already closed). And if your home is then wired to be islanded and has the necessary inverter, then you open up options to reverse charge from an EV, etc.
Ked
What I know is that you’re not losing power more often because the storms are worse – though they are probably worse – but because the fucking power companies are skimping on infrastructure. Fuck them.
Martin
Vanity Fair bringing the headline.
DONALD TRUMP, REMORSELESS ASSHOLE, APPARENTLY WON’T ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GET VACCINATED BECAUSE IT WOULD BE DOING BIDEN A “FAVOR”
Another Scott
@Martin: A PowerWall 2 can only provide 14 kWh (max continuous power 5 kW), and apparently costs around $5500. If one is without power for more than 6 hours or so (unless one is very, very frugal), one is going to be hurting. So, one probably needs 2-3 of them – it gets spendy quickly. (But, yes, so do whole-house generators but they have much, much higher uptime.)
One of the reasons I’ve put off our electrical upgrades is that I keep hoping batteries will get better and cheaper in time…
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
wmd
I can’t find the frog in this post.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Martin: What an asshole!
NotMax
@HeleninEire
Legacy of the Great Blizzard of ’88. 1888, that is.
sab
We had a gas powered whole house generator installed a couple of years ago. We had it professional installed because it does have to have all sorts of protections so we don’t fry a lineman or the elextrician who might be working on our house that we forget to tell about our back-up generator.
It kicks on for 5 minutes every week as a test. Today it spent most of the afternoon on saving our refrigerated items and running the AC.
I know there are greener solutions, but in cloudy Ohio we thought they might be problematic. Whatever. FirstEnergy provides our electricity, so we needed something dependable. We love our generator.
Martin
@Another Scott: We’ve never figured out how to consume 14kWh in a day, even with the AC and a compressor or table saw running. Typical usage for us is 9kWh with 4 people in the house.
I cannot express enough how important conservation is to address climate change. It makes every other decision in your life easier, including this one.
Bupalos
I know that when the power going out becomes annoying because it’s becoming regular, because of climate change… Sitting quietly in the dark is probably the better move to burning some more fossil fuel.
MoCaAce
After several power outages lasting more than 12 hours I finally bought a small (2500 watt) portable generator. It has gotten me through a two day outage with flying colors. It will not power a house but all I was looking for is keeping the chest freezer and refrigerator going. A few LED lights and the TV is a bonus. I run an extension cord through the window and run the freezer for a few hours twice a day. The refrigerator needs more run time. At night I shut the generator off and use a 12 volt battery to run my CPAP. If the outage is in the winter I can heat my house with wood. In the summer I suffer through the heat.
MomSense
I really want to put solar panels on my south facing roof. Maybe in a couple of years. Have a new heating cooling system installed in October which will be much more efficient.
Scout211
Our neighbors have a generac and so far they like it but this is their first year. Like a commenter mentioned upthread, yearly maintenance is crucial. If you read the reviews on the generac sales sites, there are complaints about needed repairs and maintenance difficulties.
We have a 7000 watt generator that we wheel outside and plug into a panel wired by an electrician that only services the essential electrical outlets, appliances and well pump. Plus the panel has a PG&E line shut-off. It’s served us well, but as we age, the whole house generator is starting to look more attractive. The maintenance sounds like a pain, though, at least for us.
Our propane delivery guy told us that during the planned power shutoffs, they were having a hard time keeping up with all the customers needing their propane tanks filled. If you have a gas line to your home, that makes fueling it much easier than out here where we get propane delivered.
sab
@sab: Ours is a Generac.
Soprano2
We prevented ice storms and power outages by installing a transfer switch in 2009 when we built our shed. We’ve never had to use it.
Thanks everyone for the condolences. It’s still not quite real yet.
Stuart Frasier
@Anon: Gas leads to polluted indoor air. You are breathing the combustion byproducts. Children who grow up in houses with gas cooking have significantly higher rates of asthma. Aside from being terrible for the environment, gas is bad for human health.
frosty
Coincidentally our power just came back on after 6+ hours. I know nothing about generators except my brother is getting a panel so he can run the fridge and a few lights with his Chevy Volt.
Lyrebird
@Anon:
Some of my relatives are looking into the portable kind as well, same idea: run the furnace and the water pump, maybe the fridge, in emergencies.
Mildly surprised no one here is talking about getting an electric truck instead and powering your house with that.
ETA: guess I was off getting the URL to back up my joke while Frosty was posting.
J R in WV
Our Generac powers everything but the whole house AC. Natural gas powered, a little noisy, automatic switch, runs a few minutes on Tuesday, serviced annually.
I’ve thought about getting a small AC for the bedroom, but so far it hasn’t been necessary.
In AZ we’re off grid solar and have a small Honda, which is really quiet, but runs on gasoline, which sucks. It’s for times when the battery set won’t suffice.
Recommend the Generac, ours was installed by former mine electricians.
sab
@sab: My brother in California installed solar panels that feed back into the grid. Problem is that when the whole grid goes down he is out of luck. Also, I think in Ohio it’s not allowed ( thank you FirstEnergy lobbyists.)
Another Scott
@Martin: I’m a big fan of conservation and efficiency. We recently spent a bundle on a ~ 22 SEER heat pump (with a gas furnace backup for cold winters) . It’s variable speed, etc., etc., and is on up to 20 hours a day (the pandemic hasn’t helped with us being home all the time). I’ve tried to replace all our light bulbs with LEDs. It looks we’re averaging about 35-40 kWh a day in the summer.
There’s a reason why the DC area evacuates in normal summers. ;-)
Thanks.
[ various small edits. ]
Cheers,
Scott.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Soprano2: Being I was late to the thread this morning, let me add my condolences.
RaflW
If I was spending more time at the family cabin (where storms can cut power for 2-16 hours), I’d probably get a portable Honda gasoline generator that I could run the fridge off of, and a good size battery UPS for the wifi, modem and computer.
But I’m cheap. And since we’ve been away when each of the two longer outages have happened this summer, so the fridge stayed shut and nothing spoiled (even the ice cream just looked a little sad). So we don’t even have a portable gen or a battery for the internets.
Mary G
@Soprano2: I missed that you lost your mom, I’m so sorry.
Chetan Murthy
I have to ask: why would the “green-ness” of a whole-house emergency-power solution be relevant? You shouldn’t be using it often enough, that the GHG emissions are significant; if you are, then you have bigger problems than GHG — your mains power supplier is unreliable, right?
I mean, sure, it’s a lovely thing to have battery backup, but I’d think that that money would be better-spent on solar, b/c that would cut down your “regular mode” GHG emissions.
Am I missing something?
Mary G
Terrifying or amusing, you decide: A bunch of anti-maskers planned to camp out outside the home of Deborah Khafoury, Multnomah County chair. The neighbors turned out to support her, doing a magnificent job. Long thread, but I read it all:
I am encouraged that some of the troublemakers came from out of town. Some were from Salem; one woman flew in from Texas!
Mary G
@Chetan Murthy: You can’t save solar energy, I think. Any excess goes back to the power company. So at night or if it’s raining hard, no power. So you need batteries to put your extra power in, but the ones they have don’t hold much and are very spendy. I hope Martin will correct me if I got any of that wrong.
Chetan Murthy
@Mary G: I mean something different:
That’s gotta be more GHG-efficient than building a big-enough battery for emergencies, only to rely on fossil-fuel-sourced mains power for normal usage.
Another Scott
@Chetan Murthy: In my case, I want it all. Upgraded electrical in the house so we can do things like charge a car, solar panels, and power when a transformer blows up or a tree falls over in a storm. One needs batteries or a generator if the grid is down. Martin can apparently make it work for his home with just batteries. It looks like we can’t, even if we spent $20k on batteries… But generators aren’t cheap either, and most of the time they are just sitting around rusting – at least the batteries would be used.
Decisions, decisions…
Cheers,
Scott.
Doug R
Now you have an excuse to get a Ford Lightning F-150
The 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Can Power Your House, a Lot Else—for a While
Chetan Murthy
@Another Scott: Sure, but, uh, I was assuming that one was cash-constrained (since so few aren’t). If you’re cash-constrained, you should find the cheapest way to get your emergency power taken-care-of (which should be a fossil-fuel-powered generator) and then anything leftover, you put to normal-mode solar+battery.
PeakVT
Powerwall or equivalent if you have the money. A whole house generator is last generation (no pun intended) tech, though if your outages last more than several hours you will probably have to go with one. I worked at an electrical distributor for a while and Generac was the only brand they stocked. Air-cooled designs (which include all Generacs AFAIK) simplify long-term maintenance. At this date, any permanently-installed model should run itself on a regular basis so the oil seals don’t dry out and the unit generally stays in shape.
If you spring for a battery backup system, then it is a good time to consider a solar installation, so the electrical work is done in one shot. You will want to replace your roof first, though, if it isn’t standing seam metal or very new shingles. Demounting a solar array to replace a roof is expensive.
Another Scott
@Chetan Murthy: This is just blue-sky thinking for me. :-). But we probably will be getting new cars in the next few years, so something will be decided eventually. (J’s Corolla is a 2000, my VW is a 2004.)
Maybe Cole will chime in with more details of what he wants, besides the power to stay on. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
e julius drivingstorm
I bought a pair of Duromax 2000w inverter generators and the necessary hookup to run them in parallel.if.I needed to run a window shaker to cool the bedroom. Hurricane Irma blew the whole state of Florida to smithereens and nobody had power. We were out five days and you couldn’t buy gas anywhere. Silly me, I thought I could siphon gas out of our cars. We ran one generator and loaned the other one out. The four gallons we had on hand got us through four days with me waiting in the gas line for five hours to replenish from the first available gas supplied.
Since then, I like to keep 12 gallons of rec fuel on hand for storm season and if I don’t need it I use it up in the hybrid car. (Gasoline with ethanol goes pretty stale in less than two months but rec fuel hangs in okay for the season).
If you’re not using your inverters constantly like on a dozen RV outings per year they don’t need to be the expensive Honda types. You mainly just need fuel efficiency and quiet operation for dirt cheap like Duromax or Wen. They also offer much purer sine wave power than regular generators so your electronics are much less likely to be damaged from erratic power.
With one 2000w inverter going I plugged in the fridge first then about three seconds later could safely plug in the freezer. You unplug both to run the Keurig or the microwave. I got about eleven hours of run time per gallon.
When things got back to normal I changed the oil and ran all the gas out of the carburetor. Then I packed them back in the boxes they were shipped in and buried them in the shed so if the big tree crashes on it I’ll never be able to get them out. Hmm, maybe I better bring them on the patio before the next storm.
Jay
If you have solar, you can build a battery wall that get’s charged first or off the grid, before surplus goes to the grid. Costs on sealed agm’s have dropped by about 50% since 2000. If you minimize your energy usage, ( LED’s, DC furnace motor, etc) a 4000 watt genny will keep your house running and top up the batteries, with 6 hours run time in the evening.
mvr
I think a lot depends on what you absolutely need to keep running. Figure the maximum load and then investigate the newer quieter portables (I have a small Yamaha for my off-grid cabin in case the sun doesn’t shine or I need extra power and Honda makes a couple of sizes) and then figure out how long they run on how much fuel it would take to get you through the maximum outage and whether you will be able to store enough. If that works that will be cheaper and you just need to rig things so that you can run cords from the outdoor generator to those crucial items.
If that won’t work then I would look into the Generacs and equivalent built-in units with the fancy transfer switches and so on, run off of either propane or natural gas depending on what you use at home. These are going to cost a lot more than option 1.
Batteries are getting better, but they are improving quickly enough that I’d wait for now. If you can temp through on the portables battery prices will drop and quality go up. Them maybe get a good battery unit in 5 years. You’ll also need an inverter for batteries and depending on how you do it, a transfer switch as well. You should probably check also for tax policies and whether adding a solar array would make these a good option. (Fat chance in WV is my prediction, but I don’t live there.)
trollhattan
We’ve had few long-term outages so a system to substitute full mains power and run the entire house would make no financial sense, sitting unused 99+% of the time.
I do ponder, though, what about when does happen (power out 1+days) and what do we really need to keep going with reduced hassle? I think two, three of these (example, not a recommendation) can power essentials like the furnace, water heater (ours is gas with a blower), the fish pond pump (I am the fish god), fridge, light strings, etc.
House wiring isn’t designed to segregate the necessary from the optional. At least ours isn’t. Our high draw items are A/C, the oven and sundry others. None, luckily, is a necessity. The kilowatts required for the basics aren’t that dire. LED lighting is a godsend, also, too.
trollhattan
Also, too, am interested in these solar+battery systems from Legion Solar. They bring the PV power in downstream of the meter and require no licensing or fees. You do NOT feed unused power back through the meter (hence, the optional battery) so any unused power is “wasted” but with utilities cranking up fees for traditional home solar systems I see that model losing its appeal quite soon.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
I went organic and bought a dozen hamsters and high efficiency running wheels
Reverse tool order
I would reiterate what mvr said @ 62. Odds of a good answer go way up with asking good, specific questions first. A few for this:
What loads do & don’t need to be met, maybe just want to meet?
At what voltage (240 or 120), what running amperage or wattage?
Motor starting amps (6-10 x running amps can stop/kill a too-small source.
Remember the water heater, included or not?
Are 120 V loads spread across both legs of 240 V input?
Are run times simultaneous or not (“diversity”)?
Add the numbers up, can’t skimp on real numbers except by diversity.
For fossil fuels, how much can you reasonably & safely have on hand vs need?
Can you expect to get more (not if they’re down too)?
What’s the longest duration you need/want to meet?
How can you rotate thru gasoline or diesel stock? It’s not good forever.
How much time & effort will you put in if schlepping fuel and extension cords?
Is your system legit disconnected from the grid? Flipping a breaker doesn’t cut it.
Gas stovetops probably just need a small inverter & battery for ignitors.
There’s sure to be more.
lowtechcyclist
We used to have frequent power outages, even though the power lines in our neighborhood are underground. (The power lines out on the main road aren’t buried.) Then after Isabel knocked out our power for five days, BGE must’ve done something right because since then, we’ll lose power for a second or two in a storm, but then it comes right back on.
Isabel was in 2003, and the funny thing is, I bought a generator sometime during the next year or so – not a whole-house generator, but enough juice to keep the fridge and chest freezer running. It’s been gathering dust in the shed for all these years. I’ve never even taken it out of the box. So if anyone within driving distance of northern Calvert County wants a never-used generator, cheap, let me know.
Rainy Day
A whole house generator should not cost more than $7K installed. Call your local gas companies and/or generator businesses and ask for estimates.
Make sure you also get APC battery backups (with an indicator light). They are about $65 each. Plug ALL of your devices (including Internet) into surge protectors and then plug the surge protector into the APC. This way, you won’t have any power interruptions when you switch back and forth to generator power, and you won’t have to worry about any device getting fried.
The peace of mind you’ll have is worth every penny!! You’ll never experience angst or frustration again when the power blinks or goes out for extended periods.
Spanky
@Doug R: So you run your house on your electric truck for three days and then what? No power and you can’t go anywhere.
Another whole house Generac here. Propane, because we’re out in the sticks. Cole almost certainly has natural gas, so no supply issues. It’s exactly as loud as a lawn tractor without the blades running. Can be mitigated with vegetation placed not too close, but that may be tricky in Cole’s small yard. Also code specifies that the transfer panels be placed as close to the main panel as practicable, which limits where the generator can go.
Catherine D.
I put in a Generac in 2020. The power doesn’t go out too often, but the sump pump needs to run! Before I used a portable Honda generator, which is no fun to babysit in a thunderstorm. And of course it’s no use if I’m not home.
Central Planning
@Catherine D.: One of my co-workers put in a water-powered sump pump backup. Seems like there are two benefits: it will work as long as the water company is delivering water and it doesn’t depend on electricity.
DCrefugee
Late to this…
I have a 14kW Generac, fueled by a propane tank buried in the ground. Had all that installed when I bought the house I’m in. Got the generator used for $750, so I’m way ahead of the game. Hard to go wrong with a Generac, but they are the high-priced spread. The unit doesn’t power everything I can turn on, but it keeps the lights on, the kitchen operating and cools down the bedrooms…
Anyway, John, I’d search for the best price I can get on a generator. It doesn’t have to supply all of the electrical load you expect, but it’s nice if it does. If not, you can choose what circuits you want on the generator (e.g., a/c, kitchen, TV room, etc.). It needs to be sited close to the main circuit breaker panel/near where your service enters the house. Any decent electrician can install it.
Sorry if this is redundant to earlier posts…
rikyrah
@Mary G:
From Texas
Her lying unvaccinated self full of economic anxiety?
Catherine D.
Aaaand the power just went out.
Herb
Kohler Power Systems with Eaton controller. Was around $10k installed.
Southwestern PA.
Skepticat
@Mary G:
@Mary G:
Solar panels are not intended to to work by themselves; they charge batteries from which you draw power, and the current batteries are very efficient. Those with solar do have to pay attention to how much their appliances draw, but their lights, stoves, fridges, A/C, and computers run all night and in any weather.
cleek
I know the estimate we got for our 2400sq/ft house was $12000 for a generator, not including running a gas line.
So, we don’t have a generator.
Nancy
@Stuart Frasier:
Stuart Frasier
August 13, 2021 at 11:40 pm
“@Anon: Gas leads to polluted indoor air. You are breathing the combustion byproducts. Children who grow up in houses with gas cooking have significantly higher rates of asthma. Aside from being terrible for the environment, gas is bad for human health”
I’m curious about why increased asthma is happening now. Could it be that these houses are more highly insulated now, not allowing for free air flow? I grew up in a house with open pilot lights. Do I have unusually strong lungs or might the drafts that froze my feet as a kid (cause it was unthinkable to wear slippers or socks in the house) have served a purpose?
cleek
@Anon:
gas everything stops working when the gas appliances have electric components.
BlueStater
We have an old (1790) New England house. For the first 15 years we were in it we had a small portable generator for the key parts of the electrical system (furnace, fridge, etc.). But the winters here (NW Mass., eastern slope of the Berkshires) are tough, and I got tired of refilling the portable with gas at 2 a.m. during a blizzard, which happened more than once. So we got a Generac 22.5KW whole-house generator, cost about $10K installed. Best $10K I ever spent. It’s surprisingly quiet, so much so that every so often I don’t realize that the mains supply has quit and we’re on the generator. I keep waiting for something to go wrong with it, but in five years (with annual maintenance, about $300) no troubles.
Aurona
Looking for a new truck? Probably not, but what has stuck in my mind is the new Ford F150 electric truck – that can be the backup for your house. I don’t know how long, I don’t know what the backup potential is, but you could sus that out. Since the President went whipping around the White House a few months ago in the truck, the fact that it can be a backup was very intriguing, and if you need the two (backup and new truck), this might help. As a woman, I’m inclined to go electric rather than any gas or propane model. I’m not big on old infrastructure used for those; I’m big on electric and renewables.
Art
If you go for a whole house generator you need to remember that things like A/C can consume massive amounts of power cooling a house in summer and that your fuel supply is likely not unlimited. Even city-gas may go down in an extended power outage.
The larger generator necessary to run large A/C units is more expensive and it uses a lot more fuel just idling. Even if you are using almost no electricity.
It is not uncommon for people to buy whole-house generators and to come back to their house after a few weeks away to find food rotting in the refrigerator and freezer. The people think their generator setup didn’t work. What happened was the power went out, the generator supplied the house with power until it ran out of fuel and then the food went bad.
The blame here comes down to having a limited fuel supply and squandering it keeping an unoccupied house at 65F during 95F summer days. Or 76F during 22F days. Lesson being don’t waste fuel keeping less important things running. With generator systems less, intelligently applied, is often more.
Buy a unit that accommodates a system that will call your cell phone and alert you that your house is running on the generator. Have the electricians set the transfer so it only powers the really vital stuff. Have them calculate how long it can carry the expected loads on the available fuel. Use a local fuel supplier to regularly top up your tank and keep the number available. Assuming the roads are clear you may be able to call them to top up your tank so your world-class wine collection doesn’t go bad. Having an ongoing relationship with your fuel supplier really helps.
Even down here in sunny Florida (90F at 95%RH during the day) it is possible to live without A/C for a few days. Most people can live a moderately comfortable lifestyle using a 2000 watt generator. I went with a reliable Honda unit and a propane adapter. It ran my refrigerator, two LED lights. my computer, a fan and, a radio. At night I could unplug the refrigerator for up to eight hours and plug in a small A/C unit to drop the humidity in one bedroom but last time I lived without POCO power for three days and forgot to use the A/C.
I’ve been thinking about using solar and batteries combined with a generator. It would be much more complicated but could make the fuel last a lot longer.
nclurker
living in the boonies,cold weather outages are the problem.
i keep a kerosun heater,20 gals of kerosene,which is enough for a couple of weeks.
camping stove,solar camp lights,and lots of flashlights and batteries.solar battery recharger.
as i have a well for water ,outages kill my supply,so i keep two five gallon containers.
i can always melt snow.
would love to go total solar,but being surrounded by 100 foot trees nixes that.
plenty of booze,weed,and books.
randal m sexton
I have gotten an inverter generator that is multi-fuel, can run on propane or gasoline, plus an electric start. Strong enough to run the well. A manual set up, I have to throw the generator-interlock switch by hand when the power goes out. Its a sportsman 8750 Watt Dual Fuel Digital Inverter Generator is beefy enough to run the well, and most everything else, but I turn off the electric water heater. The inverter generators are a bit more efficient, but this one is still noisy. Plan is to get my F-150 lightning ( there is a 100$ sign up for it ). and solar then only run the generator when the truck battery is running low.
Michael Cain
On the flip side, we moved to Fort Collins, CO (pop 180,000 now) last year. >99% of the wires for the municipally-owned electric distribution system are buried (ditto for the telephone and cable distribution wiring). By far the cleanest and most reliable power of anywhere I’ve ever lived. In the almost year that we’ve lived here, the power hasn’t flickered enough to cause the appliance clocks to reset even once. Not when we had 40 mph winds with wet snow last winter. Not during monsoon thunderstorms this summer.
Another Scott
@randal m sexton: There are a lot of good things happening in the vehicle market, now or soon. Ford is claiming 40 MPG city for their 2022 Maverick hybrid pickup!! I’ve never considered a pickup before because of their abysmal mileage, but …
Was it Martin who mentioned here a few months ago that the F-150 Lightning would need 2 ea 40-50A circuits for charging (and presumably for running the house from it)? I assume very few homes have that much available power in their circuit breaker boxes. :-(
Please report back if/when you get one. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
J R in WV
@J R in WV:
The 2kw Honda hadn’t been used for several years when my cousin and I went out west the winter before the plague. Our battery bank had aged out, although the solar panel installation was still putting out the wattage in the daylight.
But that Honda gen-set really came through for us. After some minimal maintenance (pushing the cable back onto the spark-plug) it started on the second pull after sitting around for at least 3-4 years.
It will run the fridge and some lights, or the water pump, and a small fan to move heat from the room with the wood stove, which is how we heat late at night in the winter. The house is tight enough that a tiny propane heater will really do the job, although I don’t like to run that over night, prefer the wood stove for over night use. R-42 roof panels…
flagpole
Doesn’t take much to keep things going for a day or two: here in the rural NW, where fire rules the landscape for a big hunk of the year and power poles get cooked regularly, I just use a 2kw gas-powered generator to keep the fridge, a light or two, and the IT infrastructure going; you’d need more for other appliances (we use LP for cooking, and I can stand a cool-ish shower for a day). I bought a Honda simply because, in my experience, they tend to be quiet, bomb-proof, and easy to start, but you can get other brands for a few hundred bucks & they may be fine.I just run long extension cords, since I have them, but wouldn’t be hard to hard-wire a few outlets, or even patch into the breaker-box.
Whole-house generators are wonderful, but expensive, and installing is also expensive and can be a bit intimidating: you need a transfer switch wired by a “real” electrician (I’m an unreal one) with a “lock-out” mechanism so you don’t fry the power-company fella who’s down the block trying to fix what knocked your power out in the first place.
‘Course a suburb where everyone had one of these little generators would sound a bit like the inside of a 747: quiet is a relative term.
Another Scott
@J R in WV: Honda and several other Japanese companies are masters at making reliable, powerful, small engines for all kinds of applications. I’ve got a self-propelled John Deere lawnmower with a Kawasaki engine. Never had a problem with it, starts easily, etc.
Honda should have put a PTO on the CBX. Maybe a Ninja H2R could drive a generator??
Or one could get a Damon Hypersport I guess.
Decisions, decisions… ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
J R in WV
If you use a gasoline-powered generator set, I highly recommend using a fuel additive called Sta-bil in your stored gas cans. It keeps your fuel fresh for a couple of years, as opposed to lasting a couple of months.
glc
The main thing I know is that it takes a while to get one installed these days, orders were backed up last year at least.
I ordered mine last September and the process was complete (with inspection) last July – with another visit to tighten up a loose wire when it started throwing error codes.
Generac. This seems to be the economical approach. The people I like in town only do Kohler, which I guess charges more and may be more robust, and I had trouble getting someone to handle this till I went via the Generac site – which incidentally wound up extending the warranty another two years.
Or you can buy an electric SUV and apparently that’s supposed to act as a house generator for three days …
dopealope
I bought a Honeywell whole house backup generator from Costco 4 years ago. I couldn’t be happier. Power goes out, 10 seconds later power comes back on. Had to have it installed by a professional, though.
xjmuellerlurks
In 2010 my neighbors put in a Generac whole house generator. They had three young kids and didn’t want to suffer through the frequent outages. It powered a 2000 sq ft house. It ran on LP, which is what we had for heating and cooking in our subdivision (buried 500 gal tanks). Between some big snows and occasional heavy storms they got some use out of it and were happy with it. If you have LP or natural gas already, getting one might be cost effective in the long run. Note, a 20kw gen can burn up to 3 gal of LP per hour, but less if demand is lower. Of course, I have no idea of what size you would need. Generac’s web site indicates an installation cost of $2k in my part of TN, above the cost of the hardware. The hardware is available through big box stores for estimation purposes.
way2blue
We were able to install SunPower solar panels & Tesla Powerwalls a couple years ago. The company that installed the system looked at 8 years of PG&E electricity usage and added a Tesla Model 3 to the mix. For 15 panels & 2 Powerwalls—designed to exactly meet our electricity needs. We could go 2 days w/o reducing electricity use and theoretically w/o sun before we ran out of battery power… Expensive (12 year payback), but there was a rebate from PG&E and tax credits available at the time. We ‘sell’ power to PG&E when the rates are high & use battery power when rates are low. The annual true-up has us paying ~$100 per year for electricity. So. When PG&E preemptively shuts off power due to strong winds or because a transformer failed or something else—we’re fine…
Another Scott
@way2blue: Thanks for the info.
Cheers,
Scott.
Empress of the Known Lute World
These generators and batteries and things are awfully complicated and expensive. And it seems your power losses are just intermittent. Why not back up the most essential items, and take up a musical instrument? Then you always have something to do when the power is off.
Hilfy
@Haroldo: How do you get the birds to come into a heated shelter? Thank you for protecting birds.
LeftCoastYankee
I live close to the boundary between 2 different electric companies (on the main street just south of me, the south side is serviced by Portland General, the north side by Pacific Power).
In the before times, I’d find a coffee shop or tavern on the other side and hang out there until the power came back. Now, there’s a lot of hoping going on.
On a different note, I’m starting to get why Generac’s stock has gone through the roof in the last year….
lurker dean
@Soprano2: yes, i missed it also, condolences.
Laura
We have a Generac that powers the whole house including the air conditioning and runs on natural gas underground. Takes a minute to cut on when the power cuts off and runs the entire house effortlessly. Cost was maybe $12,000 and well worth it. Cheers!
TexasDan
After the snowpocalypse, I got the most powerful generator available at Home Depot for $1300, got a power inlet installed on on my breaker box, with a switch to keep you from running the generator and regular power at the same time & blowing shit up, for $1100 parts & labor and a 25′ 2″ diameter power cable that was rated for the proper load, for $250.
$2650 total & I can run at least one AC, all my lights & internet & both refrigerators off of gas or propane until I run out of fuel.
Art
Many gasoline generators can be easily converted to use propane. There are companies online specializing in kits for the most popular, and best, generator makes and models. You get a bit less power but not so much as to be a major issue.
Generally you should not plan on routinely maxing out the generator capacity. Doing so tends to shorten the life of even high-quality units. Lesser models tend to curl up and die if pushed. Most units, the good and the not so good, tend to enjoy longer lives when run on propane simply because it burns very clean.
IMHO propane is a far better fuel than gasoline. There is also natural gas and it has many of the advantages of propane but I’m less familiar with it and it is somewhat less widely available. Energy density with propane is a bit less gallon for gallon and this means the generator uses a little more for the same energy. OTOH gasoline is only good for about six months without additives, and only about a year even with additives. Propane stores indefinitely.
In the engine gasoline leaves acids, carbon monoxide (CO), and water when burned. Frequent oil changes are vital. Propane burns so clean oil can go much longer and CO is far less an issue. Always check with the manufacturer for oil change intervals and CO hazards. Always observe safety procedures with flammable materials but generally spills with propane need no cleanup. There is also the issue of fuel deposits. Gasoline, particularly gasoline with alcohol (most commonly available gasoline is about 10% alcohol) can gum up carburetor/ float systems if not run dry. Propane doesn’t leave behind any gum or varnish and doesn’t need any special run-dry shut down procedure.