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You are here: Home / Open Threads / As the X-Rays Clearly Show This Thing Was Broken Long Ago

As the X-Rays Clearly Show This Thing Was Broken Long Ago

by @heymistermix.com|  August 15, 202112:06 pm| 188 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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For those repeating the “how long do we stay then, forever?” line, remember, at points we had over 100,000 troops in #Afghanistan. We had 2500, and no combat death since Feb of 2020. That sounds like serious progress… but we like to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

— Adam Kinzinger (@AdamKinzinger) August 15, 2021

Might it be possible that a group of nationalist fighters in a country that has a multi-hundred year history of ejecting foreign invaders would choose just lie in wait until the foreigners were leaving, once the foreigners announced their intention to leave? Do you think that thought even crossed Kinzinger’s mind? Even this guy knows the score:

“We got the [Afghan forces] we deserve,” Douglas Lute, an Army lieutenant general who served as the White House’s Afghan war czar under Presidents George W. Bush and Obama, told government interviewers.

If the U.S. government had ramped up training between 2002 and 2006, “when the Taliban was weak and disorganized, things may have been different,” Lute added. “Instead, we went to Iraq. If we committed money deliberately and sooner, we could have a different outcome.”

That quote is from an absolutely damning installment from a 2019 Post series on Afghanistan. It details the corruption among Afghan police, which one Navy official called “the most hated institution” in Afghanistan. Ryan Crocker called them “useless” because “they are corrupt down to the patrol level.” Another advisor called them “stealing fools” who wasted ammo by firing their shiny new rifles constantly. The notion that this institution was going to do anything but fold once we left, or that we were somehow making progress with them in the past year even though we got nowhere with them in prior years, is laughable.

When I look at our COVID response and see all the wasted opportunity and massive human stupidity, I have the same feeling as I had when I first heard that Bush wanted to invade Iraq. I wonder if 19 years from now, we’ll still be reading about how Democrats are to blame for stupid Republican COVID decisions. My guess is that we will.

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Reader Interactions

188Comments

  1. 1.

    Mike in NC

    August 15, 2021 at 12:18 pm

    The odds are excellent that someday in the not too distant future we will see another idiot named Bush sitting in the White House.

  2. 2.

    Van Buren

    August 15, 2021 at 12:24 pm

    In the horrifying alternate universe where TFG won reelection, the media would have no trouble at all blaming Afghanistan on Team D. Not only will COVID be Biden’s fault, but when the Atlantic and the Gulf are meeting up in Orlando, that will be Democrats’ fault as well.

  3. 3.

    Matt McIrvin

    August 15, 2021 at 12:26 pm

    Iraq mostly gets blamed on Democrats already. To hear Republicans talk about it now, Hillary Clinton was President from 2001 to 2009.

  4. 4.

    smith

    August 15, 2021 at 12:29 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: And why was Obama so slow to respond to Katrina? And how could he have let 9/11 happen?

  5. 5.

    Just Chuck

    August 15, 2021 at 12:29 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: 

    To hear Republicans talk

    No thanks.

  6. 6.

    West of the Rockies

    August 15, 2021 at 12:30 pm

    You can be relentlessly cynical, MM.

  7. 7.

    Cermet

    August 15, 2021 at 12:31 pm

    This isn’t fully correct; without installing a highly religious based government, anything we do after that mistake will lead to failure. Afghanistan is an extremely religious country and making it a secular democracy was failure #1, 2 and 3.

  8. 8.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    August 15, 2021 at 12:32 pm

    People with few possessions and not much else to lose can afford to fight occupiers together. Throw in an absurd level of tribal/clan loyalties, ignorance and extremist faith, and you get Afghanistan. Wall the place off from air travel and trade, cut off SWIFT access.

    It was REALLY smart in the 70s and 80s to ally with fundamentalist Muslims against secular Soviet-aligned states, wasn’t it (they were also “helpful” voices in getting population control efforts shuttered). Fuck Zbigniew Brzezinzki, Henry Kissinger, Ronald Reagan, JPII, Ratzinger and the like.

  9. 9.

    IbnBob

    August 15, 2021 at 12:38 pm

    It’s been pretty obvious for an awful long time that the only way we could have continued fighting the Taliban would have been some form of colony or client/protectorate. Make Afghanistan the 51st state?

  10. 10.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    August 15, 2021 at 12:38 pm

    Barry McCaffrey, who I never remember showing any dovish or even reluctantly hawkish tendencies, has addressed Kinzinger’s fantasy: trump promised the Taliban we’d get out if they stopped shooting. Biden is acting on that deal before they start shooting again. What we’re seeing now is the Taliban had penetrated further in to the Afghan government and military than we knew, because we have never– as Cermet indicates above– really learned anything about this country and culture, even after twenty years.

  11. 11.

    craigie

    August 15, 2021 at 12:42 pm

    I wonder if 19 years from now, we’ll still be reading about how Democrats are to blame for stupid Republican COVID decisions. My guess is that we will.

    But that’s completely logical, because as we know only Democrats and liberals have agency. Conservatives are the Zeligs of history.

  12. 12.

    bbleh

    August 15, 2021 at 12:45 pm

    I wonder if 19 years from now, we’ll still be reading about how Democrats are to blame for stupid Republican COVID decisions.

    Well, of course we will.  Otherwise Republicans would throw a practiced hissy-fit, and the MSM would lose eyeballs and hence ad revenue, and publishers and owners would get disapproving looks from their fellow Republicans, and editors and reporters wouldn’t be invited to the good cocktail parties, and none of that is good for anyone’s career.

  13. 13.

    Chris

    August 15, 2021 at 12:45 pm

    It details the corruption among Afghan police, which one Navy official called “the most hated institution” in Afghanistan. Ryan Crocker called them “useless” because “they are corrupt down to the patrol level.” Another advisor called them “stealing fools” who wasted ammo by firing their shiny new rifles constantly.

    Sounds like the NYPD.

    No wonder our neocons didn’t see anything wrong with them.

  14. 14.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    August 15, 2021 at 12:50 pm

    Richard M. Nixon @dick_nixon 13m
    There are many reasons behind the failure of the Afghan Defense Force but primary is that Ghani and most under him are spectacularly corrupt. Money never got to who earned it.

    J T @Mr_JJT 11m
    “Earned” in Afghanistan meaning “allegiance bought”. The Taliban were much more effective in buying off allegiance. Different currency than $, different forms entirely, but seems to have gotten to right people.

    I know Twitter Nixon is really a playwright and I have no idea who Mr JT is, some twitter rando, but I think this is probably right.

  15. 15.

    Fair Economist

    August 15, 2021 at 12:51 pm

    @Chris: I’ll bet the wingnuts who have screwed up our police by filling it with sociopaths and gun nuts were paid billions to do the same to the Afghani. And this is the result.

  16. 16.

    ChuckInAustin

    August 15, 2021 at 12:56 pm

    I don’t think we ever had 100,000 troops in Afghanistan. I thought the top number was 15-20k

  17. 17.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 15, 2021 at 1:02 pm

    I’d like to see Kinzingers DD 214, if you don’t mind.  He like all talking heads should be on a pike when it comes to opining about military operations that they are utterly ignorant of.

  18. 18.

    Yutsano

    August 15, 2021 at 1:03 pm

    *sigh*
    All our arguments don’t matter. The Narrative has been set. Joe Biden lost Afghanistan. And The Narrative can never be wrong.​

    @ChuckInAustin: ​ General Shinseki had as I recall said we would need something like 300,000 troops in Afghanistan to have any chance. But this whole exercise that lasted 20 years was nothing but a pretext so Dubya could find some justification to invade Iraq. There was never any serious effort by his administration to hold Afghanistan because for Dubya it was an afterthought.

  19. 19.

    Mike in NC

    August 15, 2021 at 1:09 pm

    I’ve seen this movie before: American politician with little to no foreign policy experience (LBJ, Dubya, Trump) gets fed a lot of bad advice from poor quality hires (McNamara, Rice, Powell, Pompeo) while the military leadership paints a rosy picture of the situation on the ground that’s completely at odds with reality. It will happen again.

  20. 20.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    August 15, 2021 at 1:10 pm

    More I think about it, wonder what the world would look like with a strong secular Syria, strong secular Egypt, strong secular Turkey, strong secular Iraq, a strong secular Iran and a strong secular Afghanistan? How much better would it be?

  21. 21.

    WaterGirl

    August 15, 2021 at 1:10 pm

    OT, but something good – brendancalling made it over the Canadian border and is on his way to see his son.

  22. 22.

    zhena gogolia

    August 15, 2021 at 1:12 pm

    @Yutsano:

    I believe he said 400,000.

  23. 23.

    zhena gogolia

    August 15, 2021 at 1:13 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    Great!

  24. 24.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    August 15, 2021 at 1:13 pm

    The Afghan Hawks should man, up and put their money were their mouth is an organize a private special forces operation with their own money, take out the Taliban leadership and show us how the pros do it.  Too much talk-talk out Conservatives and not enough Do-Do.

  25. 25.

    Kay

    August 15, 2021 at 1:14 pm

    We had 2500,

    Magical thinking. Someone had to make an actual decision and no one else was willing to do that.

  26. 26.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    August 15, 2021 at 1:15 pm

    @Yutsano:

    “Rumsfeld was saying that we needed to bomb Iraq,” Clarke said to Stahl. “And we all said … no, no. Al-Qaeda is in Afghanistan. We need to bomb Afghanistan. And Rumsfeld said there aren’t any good targets in Afghanistan. And there are lots of good targets in Iraq. I said, ‘Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with it.

    “Initially, I thought when he said, ‘There aren’t enough targets in — in Afghanistan,’ I thought he was joking.

  27. 27.

    Sloane Ranger

    August 15, 2021 at 1:15 pm

    Here in the UK there have been lots of interviews with injured veterans or the family members of service people who were killed there which basically boil down to I lost a limb, my son died, all for no meaning. We have betrayed the Afghans. Backbenchers are also slamming the Foreign and Defence Secretaries for not doing anything. One has even likened it to Suez.

    The point is, once the US decided to pull out, we had to follow suit. We simply don’t have the men and resources to do otherwise and these people are fooling themselves and others by pretending we do. Likewise, the dead and injured did their duty. That is not meaningless. There were failures but these weren’t the fault of the ordinary squaddie/junior officer on the ground. Both the British and US government’s bear a lot of responsibility. They made a lot of very poor decisions, particularly in the early days, including invading the country to start with. But the lion’s share of the responsibility for today’s clusterfuck rests with the Afghan leadership at national and local level. We have both spent years training the Afghan military and millions of pounds and dollars in supplying them and that has all been wasted by corrupt and cynical Afghan politicians and tribal leaders playing one side off against the other.

    It was a mistake to invade in the first place and anyone who knew the history of the country said so at the time but was shouted down, but it’s been 20 years now. It’s not our responsibility to police Afghanistan and oversee it’s development in perpetuity.

    Sorry if this is a bit incoherent.

  28. 28.

    Leto

    August 15, 2021 at 1:15 pm

    @Yutsano:

    @zhena gogolia:

    Gen Shinseki was specifically talking about Iraq, and clashing with Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz about the number needed for that shit show (500k) during Congressional testimony. But same thing really.

  29. 29.

    Anyway

    August 15, 2021 at 1:16 pm

    The evil Saudi regime doesn’t get enough attention/ blame. They know how to play DC and the village and have bought up influence by funding think tanks and pundits. Looking at you, Tom Friedman …

  30. 30.

    Chris

    August 15, 2021 at 1:18 pm

    @Fair Economist:

    We’ve sent a bunch of police advisers to Central American nations to “advise” them with their gang problems, which have pretty much only gotten worse ever since.  Because all we encourage them to do is “hit hard, jail lots of people, and just generally be a right-wing jaw-breaking asshole.”  Doesn’t help that the anti-gang assistance is contingent on them passing and applying counterproductive “tough on crime” laws.

  31. 31.

    Ohio Mom

    August 15, 2021 at 1:20 pm

    I think I’ve said this before, I thought we’d go into Afghanistan for a month or two, break a lot of stuff, declare victory and leave. Duh, don’t bet on my predictions.

    In my hazy memory, I confuse the voices against going into Afghanistan and those against going into Iraq. A fair number of lefty-bloggers made terrible calls (and then later made apologies) but I do remember Atrios standing firm against each war.

  32. 32.

    Chris

    August 15, 2021 at 1:20 pm

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    I mean, to be fair, Syria, Egypt, and Iraq’s regimes were all secular and they invited revolution because they were all corrupt as hell and repressive as hell.  Same with Afghanistan with that mess of a socialist republic the Soviets invaded to prop up.

    As with the “government” we’ve propped up in Afghanistan, there’s a pretty big credibility problem.

  33. 33.

    Steeplejack

    August 15, 2021 at 1:21 pm

    We wanted to understand what’s happening in Afghanistan. So we talked to three unvaccinated Trump supporters at an Arby’s in Harrisburg.

    — New York Times Pitchbot (@DougJBalloon) August 14, 2021

  34. 34.

    Kay

    August 15, 2021 at 1:21 pm

    “But the president was unmoved. If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question.”

    None of them. Not then and not now and if they can’t who can? There’s no second set of experts to ask that we somehow forgot to ask over 20 years. That person or plan will not magically appear.

  35. 35.

    Robert Sneddon

    August 15, 2021 at 1:23 pm

    @Sloane Ranger: ​
      The stramash in Afghanistan is a NATO effort after the US invoked Clause 5 of the Treaty back in 2001. If the US has negotiated a withdrawal of NATO forces from Afghanistan then all the NATO troops stationed there have to go. That includes the British, the French and the soldiers and staffs of whatever other NATO nations are still there carrying out “training” of the Afghan state forces (there has officially been no combat role for NATO in Afghanistan since, I think, 2005 when victory was declared by President GW Bush).

  36. 36.

    Geminid

    August 15, 2021 at 1:25 pm

    @Mike in NC: I think Cheney and Rumsfeld had a lot more say in Bush’s decision making than than did his Secretary of State or National Security Advisor. Condoleeza Rice was chosen for her lack of clout.

  37. 37.

    zhena gogolia

    August 15, 2021 at 1:25 pm

    @Leto:

    As soon as I typed it, I thought, oh, that was Iraq.

  38. 38.

    Ohio Mom

    August 15, 2021 at 1:26 pm

    @IbnBob: Make Afghanistan the 51st state, as if we don’t already have too many states full of violent, intolerant fundamentalists?

  39. 39.

    raven

    August 15, 2021 at 1:27 pm

    @Mike in NC: fuck lbj

  40. 40.

    Citizen Alan

    August 15, 2021 at 1:27 pm

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:  Hell, I would be happy with the strong secular United States at this point. Instead, half the country consists of shiite baptists!

  41. 41.

    debbie

    August 15, 2021 at 1:30 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    It’s very difficult finding myself agreeing with Nixon even though I know it’s not him.

  42. 42.

    RSA

    August 15, 2021 at 1:31 pm

    @ChuckInAustin:

    This timeline has U.S. forces at 100,000 in 2010-11:

    August 2010: The U.S. force reaches 100,000.

    May 2011: Bin Laden is found hiding in neighboring Pakistan and killed in a U.S. special operations raid. There are still about 100,000 troops in Afghanistan.

    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2016/07/06/a-timeline-of-u-s-troop-levels-in-afghanistan-since-2001/

  43. 43.

    Suzanne

    August 15, 2021 at 1:31 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    I thought we’d go into Afghanistan for a month or two, break a lot of stuff, declare victory and leave. 

    The military-industrial complex and the American gunhumpers would never allow that.

  44. 44.

    Geminid

    August 15, 2021 at 1:32 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Rumsfeld thought that with precision weaponry American airpower was virtually omnipotent. A former Navy pilot himself, Rumsfeld had a pilot’s vision of warfare. American airpower did help win a quick victory against Iraq’s army, but Rumsfeld was ignoring the potential of an assymetrical insurgency.

  45. 45.

    Yutsano

    August 15, 2021 at 1:33 pm

    @Leto:  It really does show that after the initial invasion and the amazing coalition they somehow assembled (they got fucking SWEDEN involved!) it was never a serious consideration after that. Bin Laden hadn’t been caught. Taliban were blowing up our soldiers* and equipment right and left. There was no serious attempts to build up a stable government. I’m sorry for you and any of your fellow airmen who lost battles over there. But we needed to get out. I think Biden had this planned from the getgo.

    *okay so I’m doing the thing I hate and lumping soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and Coast Guard under one term. But am sometimes lazy.

  46. 46.

    sab

    August 15, 2021 at 1:34 pm

    @Kay: Those experts can’t get security clearance, because they don’t join Groupthink.

  47. 47.

    Kent

    August 15, 2021 at 1:35 pm

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:More I think about it, wonder what the world would look like with a strong secular Syria, strong secular Egypt, strong secular Turkey, strong secular Iraq, a strong secular Iran and a strong secular Afghanistan? How much better would it be?

    You are essentially asking what the world would be like without Islam.  Which essentially has no tradition of secular government, separation of church and state, etc.

  48. 48.

    Chris

    August 15, 2021 at 1:39 pm

    @Yutsano:

    It really does show that after the initial invasion and the amazing coalition they somehow assembled (they got fucking SWEDEN involved!) it was never a serious consideration after that.

    I thought back to the immediate post-9/11 era a couple months ago when Rumsfeld died, and all I could think was:

    1) It’s absolutely staggering that this much international and domestic goodwill was pissed away so quickly and so badly.  I really struggle to think of another time when we had so much going for us and yet still managed to fuck it up so badly on the foreign policy front.

    2) It’s tragic, in a whole other way, that the aftermath of 9/11 is probably the last time in my lifetime that the United States as a whole had a broad bipartisan consensus to align behind a president on something… and the only thing we could think to spend that consensus on was torture, warrantless wiretapping, a criminal war that killed hundreds of thousands of people, and another war that even if it could be justified and might have worked out in theory, was never going to in practice because the people in charge were too obsessed with the first three things.

  49. 49.

    Mary G

    August 15, 2021 at 1:39 pm

    I can’t remember the name, but several people I follow on Twitter were showing a video of some Afghan general’s house that was almost as ostentatious as TFG’s T**** Tower gold-encrusted penthouse. They were also saying that ordinary Afghan soldiers had not been paid in months. The guy is probably in another country buying new ugly furniture with the money America was foolish enough to pay him.

    Just an all-around shitshow that I admire the hell out of President Biden’s bravery in calling an end to knowing that every atrocity committed against Afghan women in the coming months, and there’s going to be a lot of them, will be laid at his feet by Republicans and even some Democrats. Alexander Vindman’s been doing the rounds for his book Here Right Matters that came out this week, and Biden did the right thing.

  50. 50.

    Mike in La

    August 15, 2021 at 1:41 pm

    listening to NPR while doing errands this morning. Not a single interviewee, not a single employee of NPR could remember that bush/cheney pulled out of Afghanistan to go shock and awe (inflict terrorism) on Iraqis. Collective amnesia all around.

  51. 51.

    Butter Emails

    August 15, 2021 at 1:43 pm

    @Mary G: 

    I can’t remember the name, but several people I follow on Twitter were showing a video of some Afghan general’s house that was almost as ostentatious as TFG’s T**** Tower gold-encrusted penthouse. They were also saying that ordinary Afghan soldiers had not been paid in months. The guy is probably in another country buying new ugly furniture with the money America was foolish enough to pay him.

    Nah. He almost certainly took bribes from the Taliban to surrender his command and switch sides. Probably still living it up in the house.

  52. 52.

    sab

    August 15, 2021 at 1:46 pm

    @Ohio Mom: I knew we wouldn’t do that or just that. That is why I was so adamantly opposed.

    I remember sitting in a bar with my new, non-drinking husband, seriously aghast when we invaded Iraq.

    Nothing in the last twenty years has made me feel better.  Troops were every bit as good as we expected. But why were we there? Why were  ours dying. How would we make things better. How could we avoid making things worse.

  53. 53.

    Spanky

    August 15, 2021 at 1:47 pm

    The one – sole! – sensible thing that Rumsfeld has ever done is to die when he did.

  54. 54.

    Suzanne

    August 15, 2021 at 1:47 pm

    @Chris: I think Americans need to do a lot of soul-searching here. There were plenty of shitty people in power, but the American public overwhelmingly supported this. We tried really hard to make revenge into a virtue, and we pretended that was self-sacrifice and heroism and love of country. It wasn’t. It was bloodthirst and bigotry and — of course — pretending that patriarchy held the answer to every problem.

    The right wing is now memory-holing their support for both of the wars, pretending that “elites” and neocons gave us a war we didn’t want. Fuck that. As someone who always opposed these adventures, I remember how many people supported them both.

  55. 55.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    August 15, 2021 at 1:48 pm

    @Chris: The Bush admin fucked up their own military victories, twice, but not consolidating their successes because Neo-Cons don’t do nation building.  They also ensured no political solution was possibly by labeling the Taliban as incurably EVIL.

  56. 56.

    scav

    August 15, 2021 at 1:50 pm

    @Suzanne: Yup.  There’s even been pious longings for the post 9-11 “unity” in these threads.

  57. 57.

    Robert Sneddon

    August 15, 2021 at 1:50 pm

    @Yutsano: There was no ‘Coalition’ in Afghanistan, just NATO. Here’s a list of NATO nations (noting that a number of Eastern European countries joined NATO after 2001). Countries like Turkey fought in Afghanistan and lost troops there defending the US from a bunch of Saudi religious nutters hidden in caves.

    The “Coalition of the Willing” fought in Iraq, not NATO. This Coalition failed to include a lot of NATO nations such as France who, all the time the US right-wing were going on about “cheese-eating surrender monkeys” and “Freedom Fries” had military forces present in Afghanistan to get shot at for no particularly coherent reason.

  58. 58.

    RSA

    August 15, 2021 at 1:51 pm

    Mr, Kinzinger, if victory had been within our grasp, Taliban wouldn’t have been able to take over the country in a hot Kabul minute.

  59. 59.

    Spanky

    August 15, 2021 at 1:52 pm

    Has anyone on the talking heads shows brought up John Kerry’s famous and now ancient question?

    How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?

    BTW, I found this on Youtube just a few days ago, and thought how timely and relevant his commentary still is.

  60. 60.

    trollhattan

    August 15, 2021 at 1:52 pm

    Huh, a quote for every occasion.

    August 15, 2021 at 1:34 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard

    “As soon as we leave it’s all going to blown up anyway… the minute we leave, everything blows up. It will go on for many years and the sad part is as soon as it ends, you have those guys sitting back waiting.”

    — Donald Trump, on Fox News in 2012, on what would happen when the U.S. leaves Afghanistan.

  61. 61.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    August 15, 2021 at 1:53 pm

    @Suzanne: The military-industrial complex and the American gunhumpers would never allow that.

    I was working in aforesaid complex and those companies loathed it with a passion. There is a pile of money to be made in a cold war with the CCP, nothing to be made fighting with a bunch of yokel militias. What drove the Forever War was because the Neo-Cons want war for the sake of war.  As the Rumsfeld quote shows, the Neo-Cons were more interested in Iraq because there was more shit to blow up, not that it solved the problem.

  62. 62.

    trollhattan

    August 15, 2021 at 1:54 pm

    @Yutsano:

    TBF The Allen Wrench Brigade performed admirably, especially when it came to rebuilding.

  63. 63.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    August 15, 2021 at 1:55 pm

    @Spanky: It’s easy, you forget your humanity, ask the stupid question, then yell and scream a lot when that last man deserts while fragging you on the way out.

  64. 64.

    Robert Sneddon

    August 15, 2021 at 1:56 pm

    @Butter Emails: ​
      I recall reading a press report about a warlord tribal leader in Afghanistan during the Russian occupation back in the 1980s. He fought against the Russians during the initial invasion, turned his coat and signed up with them as more and more Russian troops were deployed to try and ‘stabilise’ the region, joined the Mujahadeen to fight against the Russians when they settled in to stay, cut a deal with the Kabul puppet government while the Russians weren’t looking and later joined the Northern Alliance once the Russians started to make noises about leaving. He got paid every time.

    His fellow Afghans though he was a genius.

  65. 65.

    Chris

    August 15, 2021 at 2:00 pm

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    I still say “neocons don’t do nation-building” is the biggest unlearned lesson of the last twenty years (much like all other lessons that would imply putting the blame primarily on the GOP).

    Germany and Japan were rebuilt by New Dealers.  Iraq and Afghanistan were rebuilt (if the term may be so abused) by Reaganites.  And boy, does it show.

  66. 66.

    raven

    August 15, 2021 at 2:02 pm

    Halfway around the world tonight
    In a strange and foreign land
    A soldier packs his memories
    As he leaves Afghanistan
    And back home, they don’t know too much
    There’s just no way to tell
    I guess you had to be there
    For to know that war was hell
    And there won’t be any victory parades
    For those that’s coming back
    They’ll fly them in at midnight
    And unload the body sacks
    And the living will be walking down
    A long and lonely road
    Because nobody seems to care these days
    When a soldier makes it home
    They’ll say it wasn’t easy
    Just another job, well done
    As the government in Kabul falls
    To the sounds of rebel guns
    And the faces of the comrades
    Being blown out of the sky
    Leaves you bitter with the feeling
    That they didn’t have to die
    And there won’t be any victory parades
    For those that’s coming back
    They’ll fly them in at midnight
    And unload the body sacks
    And the living will be walking down
    A long and lonely road
    Because nobody seems to care these days
    When a soldier makes it home
    Halfway around the world tonight
    In a strange and foreign land
    A soldier unpacks memories
    That he saved from Vietnam
    Back home they didn’t know too much
    There was just no way to tell
    I guess you had to be there
    For to know that war was hell
    And there wasn’t any big parades
    For those that made it back
    They flew them in at midnight
    And unloaded all the sacks
    And the living were left walking down
    A long and lonely road
    Because nobody seemed to care back then
    When a soldier made it home
    The night is coming quickly
    And the stars are on their way
    As I stare into the evening
    Looking for the words to say
    That I saw the lonely soldier
    Just a boy that’s far from home
    And I saw that I was just like him
    While upon this earth I roam
    And there may not be any big parades
    If I ever make it back
    As I come home under cover
    Through a world that can’t keep track
    Of the heroes who have fallen
    Let alone the ones who won’t
    Which is why nobody seems to care
    When a soldier makes it home

  67. 67.

    Chris

    August 15, 2021 at 2:02 pm

    @RSA:

    Mr, Kinzinger, if victory had been within our grasp, Taliban wouldn’t have been able to take over the country in a hot Kabul minute.

    Yep.

    There’s a pop narrative that the Tet Offensive that says it actually was the end of the war and all that was left was a mop-up operation, if only the liberal media hadn’t reported it as a failure and made us cut and run… which similarly disregards what the Tet Offensive showed us about the enemy’s capacities.

  68. 68.

    Suzanne

    August 15, 2021 at 2:03 pm

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    What drove the Forever War was because the Neo-Cons want war for the sake of war. 

    Plenty of the American GenPop wanted war for the sake of war, too.

    Military worship makes me really upset the older I get. It is a way of getting us to value all the wrong things. Might over compassion, force over diplomacy. Here in all these neighborhoods and boroughs in PA, there are banners hung up on the commercial streets with photos of “local boys” who fought and some died in wars in the last 100 years. A block away, there is a small public square with an old military cannon and a plaque with names of soldiers from the neighborhood, under the words “LEST WE FORGET”.

    But we’ve forgotten schoolteachers and janitors and mothers who died in childbirth and doctors and nurses and those who stock grocery store shelves and those who help disabled and sick and old people. Only soldiers are worth remembering, apparently. Americans love wars.

  69. 69.

    Jay C

    August 15, 2021 at 2:10 pm

    @RSA:

    This. I’ve seen a lot of online commentary (some of it actually cogent, surprisingly, for online commentary) arguing the point that the incredibly swift collapse of “the Afghan Government” is probably evidence that some sort of “fix” has been in, probably for a while: that numerous foreign and Afghan players have been assuming that the Taliban were going to win and take over once major foreign forces weren’t there to respond with advanced weaponry. That it is happening NOW has been suspected to be an opportunistic move to embarrass the Biden Administration: now that their Useful Idiot (Trump) isn’t around….

  70. 70.

    Amir Khalid

    August 15, 2021 at 2:11 pm

    @Kent:

    You are essentially asking what the world would be like without Islam.

    And you are assuming that Islam and being progressive don’t really mix. I know this to be false.

  71. 71.

    Sloane Ranger

    August 15, 2021 at 2:12 pm

    @Robert Sneddon: I’m sure you’ve listened to or watched the news recently and you know that’s not what our politicians are saying.

  72. 72.

    Madeleine

    August 15, 2021 at 2:14 pm

    @WaterGirl: Great news!! Thanks!

  73. 73.

    MazeDancer

    August 15, 2021 at 2:14 pm

    Until today, if I thought about Afghanistan, and I rarely did, it was the place is completely corrupt, we made some small good happen for women and girls, and all war is wrong.

    Today, there is part of me willing to carpet bomb the country into non-existence because the women and girls are all better off dead.

    But all war is wrong.

    This thread from some who served two tours in Afghanistan helps me understand why Mr. Biden was willing to take any blame just to get us out of there.

  74. 74.

    Yutsano

    August 15, 2021 at 2:15 pm

    Feh. I can’t even watch YouTube right now. I’m gonna immerse myself in some Ducktales and waffles.​

    @Amir Khalid: ​ The histpry of Islam in Afghanistan was amazingly rich and vibrant, based on Sufi teachings. Then the Soviets invaded and the Saudis took it upon themselves to bring Wahhabi foreign teachings. Afghanistan might never recover from this.

    I know you know this. It’s more for the crowd.

  75. 75.

    nasruddin

    August 15, 2021 at 2:15 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: 

    because we have never– as Cermet indicates above– really learned anything about this country and culture

    I’m afraid this is the truth, but I hope for some detailed analysis and self reflection. Another piece, I am guessing, is that the opportunity to do something constructive was there, but we blew it almost from the start. We should’ve negotiated with the defeated Taliban early on & made sure the new government had them on the inside. Would that have worked out? Dunno.

  76. 76.

    Chris

    August 15, 2021 at 2:16 pm

    @Suzanne:

    Yeah.  I’ve come to loathe the soldier-worship for exactly this reason.  “Support our troops” in practice always means “fuck everybody else,” and it’s fed the militarization of society in that soldiers or those who claim to speak for them feel entitled to butt into increasingly every conversation in national politics, wave the flag, and expect that to be the final word.  Remember when the Fight For Fifteen really took off and one of the hot takes was “waaaah but isn’t it deeply unfair to THE TROOPS!!! that some burger-flipper at Wendy’s might make more money than them?”  You’re literally not allowed to do anything for anybody, ever, because THE TROOPS!!! have it worse and so it’d be disrespectful to them.

  77. 77.

    Jay

    August 15, 2021 at 2:17 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    great news!

  78. 78.

    catclub

    August 15, 2021 at 2:19 pm

    @ChuckInAustin:

     I don’t think we ever had 100,000 troops in Afghanistan. I thought the top number was 15-20k<

    /p>
    I think Obama boosted it up to about 165k troops. Biden was not a fan of that, if i remember incorrectly.​

  79. 79.

    Major Major Major Major

    August 15, 2021 at 2:20 pm

    I want to know who the brain geniuses are who told Biden the Afghan military would actually want to slow the Taliban’s advance. Many aspects of the current fiasco stem from this. Much of the badness was inevitable but not the logistical failures.

  80. 80.

    smith

    August 15, 2021 at 2:22 pm

    @Chris:  The fact that they’re paid so poorly suggests that we don’t really honor them at all. We just like to make things go boom.

  81. 81.

    Major Major Major Major

    August 15, 2021 at 2:23 pm

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    strong secular Iraq

    Didn’t we have one in the 80s?

  82. 82.

    nasruddin

    August 15, 2021 at 2:24 pm

    @Mike in NC: The thing about experience, especially experience in cultures not your own, is that experience in one area is not always transferable to another.

    I doubt experience in Iraq has all that much carryover to Afghanistan.  Of course it is possible to screw up both things equally badly because one is buck ignorant about both and one’s judgement is completely bad on every account in the first place.

  83. 83.

    catclub

    August 15, 2021 at 2:27 pm

    @Robert Sneddon: ​
     

    There was no ‘Coalition’ in Afghanistan, just NATO

    There was a coalition of the Saudis and the Pakistani security services funding the Taliban for the entire time, to make sure any other Afghan government failed.

  84. 84.

    Raoul Paste

    August 15, 2021 at 2:30 pm

    @catclub: The funding sources for the Taliban don’t get enough media attention

  85. 85.

    Suzanne

    August 15, 2021 at 2:32 pm

    @smith:

    The fact that they’re paid so poorly suggests that we don’t really honor them at all. 

    Eh. They don’t deserve more honor or support than any other person. I agree that they need to be paid more, because I think everybody needs to be paid more. But what they do is not more important for society than anyone else.

    The differential in “honor” or “support” for the troops is a way of enforcing toxic patriarchy in American society. As opposed to “feminine” values like listening, consensus-building, and trying to find mutual understanding.

  86. 86.

    cain

    August 15, 2021 at 2:33 pm

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: ​
     
    That can only happen if there are strong economies in those countries. But all of them have inherent corrupt politics that channels money and influence to the very few.
    Young men especially in poor economic state tend to embrace religion and it’s more poorer aspects of it.

  87. 87.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    August 15, 2021 at 2:33 pm

    What do you all think of this person’s take: “We needed to leave, but not like this”?

    Under threat of force.

    Keep US Air Assets active in the region and immediately and viciously destroy any attempts by the Taliban to advance. They are rushing down civilian highways in armed convoys. AC-120s could have a COD moment.

    Respond to threats accordingly.

    Even now as they capture the entire Afghan Air Force and billions of dollars of military equipment, we are doing nothing. Once it’s clear that such assets have been lost, air strikes should destroy the entire facility.

    The Taliban gained an entire military machine overnight.

    ***without a drop of blood***

    If it’s unclear, let me clarify. All of the billions of US Dollars and US soldiers lives that were spent in the last 20 years ultimately built a Taliban Nation that is stronger than it ever has been before, with modern military capabilities.

    I hope that Biden is planning on doing those air strikes on military equipment left behind

  88. 88.

    cain

    August 15, 2021 at 2:34 pm

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: ​
    Too much talk-talk out Conservatives and not enough Do-Do.

     
    I see what you did there.

  89. 89.

    Just Chuck

    August 15, 2021 at 2:36 pm

    @Chris:

    “Support our troops” in practice always means “fuck everybody else,”

    Including, ultimately, the troops.

  90. 90.

    Just Chuck

    August 15, 2021 at 2:37 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): The Taliban have a lot of fighter pilots and mechanics and spare parts, eh?  They’ll probably sell most of it.  It’s obvious the poster was typing that with one hand.

  91. 91.

    Jay C

    August 15, 2021 at 2:38 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    And you are assuming that Islam and being progressive don’t really mix. I know this to be false.

    Can you give us some examples, then, Amir? Or rather, remind us of what exceptions there are to the assumption?

    No snark intended at all: it’s just that it seems (and yes, this is coming from an American whose main sources of information are mainly – not exclusively – American, so some bias is unavoidable), that in countries (and sub-countries/regions) where “Islam” is recognized as the “official” religion, most of what Westerners would think of as “progressive” values are, to say the least, frowned on: if not actively suppressed.

    Social values, I mean, mainly: Islam seems to be OK accepting outside ideas in the economic sphere, and even some “progressive” political concepts (like limited democracy): but in terms of social structures and strictures, it’s hard not to conflate “Muslim society”/”Muslim state” with “authoritarian misogynistic theocracy” .

    I’m sure there ARE exceptions: but not (apparently) well-known…

  92. 92.

    Dave

    August 15, 2021 at 2:38 pm

    Anecdotal but I believe very revealing.

    I was in Afghanistan as part of the “Surge” in 2011-2012. A reserve Civil Affairs bloke assigned to what was believed to be a quiet district that had been occupied by the Polish who were slated to have the 82nd replace them.

     

    The 82nd, the State guys, etc all believed it really was a quiet district; and it was because what we will call the Taliban already owned it.

    I’m about 95% confident that the Polish there had a live and let live agreement with the opportunity to earn some cash on the side. This was never a 100% confirmed and never would be (no way the politics of that would play) but let’s say things got squirrelly when my team was there.

    82nd arrives believing the district is secure but they miss it’s quiet because there has been no need for it not to be. So the 82nd acts which causes the Taliban to act etc etc. The caveat being that it was incredibly clear, at least to me, that they were fairly carefully calibrating their actions to avoid decisive blowback.

    We couldn’t leave the gates without a patrol turning into an ongoing low to mid-level scrum it was also clear they weren’t trying their hardest and so in the six months they were on the ground our COP suffered about 10% WIA/KIA.

     

    In a district that I’m certain for years had nothing but green or yellow slides. That until they went kicking would have been claimed as pacified.

    Sad reality is I suspect I was more aware of what the situation than 95% of people and it was blatantly clear I was paddling in the kiddie pool with my floaties on.

    All these people pretending there was a win state there when the operational picture was so delusional are merely protecting that illusion.

    Only thing that has surprised me is I thought it would take a few more months but here we are.

  93. 93.

    germy

    August 15, 2021 at 2:38 pm

    Max Boot said the quiet part out loud once in 2019 before deleting the tweet but keep in mind this is what he and his war horny neoconservative friends really think when they’re not faking concern for women’s rights or American “credibility”. It’s boiler plate imperial racism pic.twitter.com/fH5SulvpUH— Adam H. Johnson (@adamjohnsonNYC) August 15, 2021

  94. 94.

    Robert Sneddon

    August 15, 2021 at 2:39 pm

    @Raoul Paste: ​
     

    The funding sources for the Taliban don’t get enough media attention

    The NATO effort in Afghanistan flooded the country with wealth and the Taliban benefited from this in bribes and coercion and protection and other ways. Members of the Taliban ended up working for the invaders, selling them food and building materials and driving trucks and even providing security cover in some convoy situations to protect them against bandits near the border with Pakistan.

    Never forget, the Taliban are almost all native Afghans. They probably all voted in the ‘democratic’ elections for the President of Some Parts of Kabul over the years.

  95. 95.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    August 15, 2021 at 2:40 pm

    @Just Chuck:

    Now that I think about it, yeah, where are they going to get spare parts and fuel for these machines?

  96. 96.

    Just Chuck

    August 15, 2021 at 2:41 pm

    @Jay C: The modern histories of Egypt and Turkey were, up until recently, that of successful secular states.  Iraq too, tho it was hardly a free society.  For a current example, how about Indonesia?  270 million people and 85% Muslim.

  97. 97.

    germy

    August 15, 2021 at 2:44 pm

    The failure to anticipate the rapid fall of afghan cities, including kabul, is a huge US intelligence failure. I know some US mil commanders anticipated it. They told me. Yet somehow their voices were not heard.— Richard Engel (@RichardEngel) August 15, 2021

    If only there’d been some way to share that knowledge pic.twitter.com/dCjfejHg7m— Tom Scocca (@tomscocca) August 15, 2021

    Engel is the Chief NBC Adrenaline Junkie.  Why didn’t he help them get their voices  heard?

  98. 98.

    Dave

    August 15, 2021 at 2:44 pm

    @Dave: And needless to say corruption was everywhere and not the tolerable well this guy is skimming a bit but overall it’s getting done just such blatant corruption that I genuinely believe that ISAF Main was unwilling to process it because of what it revealed about the reality of the situation.

  99. 99.

    smith

    August 15, 2021 at 2:46 pm

    @Suzanne: I  agree with you, just wanted to point out that the “honor” and “support” of actual troops are fake.

  100. 100.

    Dave

    August 15, 2021 at 2:47 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): One thing I have almost no concerns about is the Taliban scraping together any form of effective Air Force.

    Notice how the army, police, government crumbled? The air force would be no different hell it would present a nice juicy target to win a PR round.

  101. 101.

    Just Chuck

    August 15, 2021 at 2:47 pm

    @Just Chuck: They’ll have some of the pilots and mechanics, yes.  Not saying they’d be starting from absolute scratch, but I don’t think they can sustain it.  Takes a lot of fuel and parts just to train.

    Er, that was @Goku, but somehow I managed to start talking to myself…

  102. 102.

    EmbraceYourInnerCrone

    August 15, 2021 at 2:53 pm

    @Chris: yes. And they conveniently miss the fact that if minimum wage was raise may the poor kids who join the military because they see it as the only option, might be able to do something else. Many of the people I served with were from poor neighborhoods in New Orleans, LA, small dying Midwest towns, Rust belt cities and the reservations.

  103. 103.

    germy

    August 15, 2021 at 2:55 pm

    Back from the western outskirts of Kabul, where this evening there were extraordinary scenes of Taliban fighters leaving the capital in captured Humvees and police trucks, brandishing M16s, cheered on by crowds of bystanders, chased by packs of children.

    — Matthieu Aikins (@mattaikins) August 15, 2021

  104. 104.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    August 15, 2021 at 2:56 pm

    @Suzanne:

    Excellent point. Another thing that’s always bothered me about the military worship is the, “they fought for our freedoms” which hasn’t been true since WW2.

  105. 105.

    germy

    August 15, 2021 at 2:57 pm

    Have been talking with police in downtown Kabul. Some have left their posts, others have put on civilian dress but keep their weapons. Some vow to stick together, others go their own way, but none say they want to fight the Taliban.

    — Matthieu Aikins (@mattaikins) August 15, 2021

    Around Kabul, I’m witnessing government forces put on plainclothes and walk away from their posts, heading home to find loved ones. Streets are peaceful, mostly empty.

    — Matthieu Aikins (@mattaikins) August 15, 2021

  106. 106.

    Almost Retired

    August 15, 2021 at 3:00 pm

    At the very least, I hope the US is extraordinarily generous with the green cards and visas and such for our allies and Afghan activitists, etc.  I don’t know where you draw the line as to who gets out.  But I hope that enough are rescued that more “Little Kabul” neighborhoods start popping up in major US Cities (Fremont, CA has a significant one).

  107. 107.

    greenergood

    August 15, 2021 at 3:03 pm

    Way late to the thread – 60 per cent of the students at the University of Herat were women. They have now been barred from entering the university, and sent ‘home’  to ‘wait’.

  108. 108.

    Suzanne

    August 15, 2021 at 3:07 pm

    @smith: Well, yeah. But rhetorical support is still something.

    I know I repeatedly bring up Joan Williams’ book “White Working Class”, but she points out a lot of important stuff. One of the things she points out is that lots of working-class men find “women’s work” to be emasculating and it’s only the more stereotypically “manly” work that they want, like law enforcement, construction, or military service.

    So, instead of giving respect or equal pay to “women’s work”…. we go get embroiled in dumbshit wars. And we pretend that it’s honorable and self-sacrificing. It isn’t. It’s a job.

  109. 109.

    raven

    August 15, 2021 at 3:19 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Be careful what you wish for.

  110. 110.

    mrmoshpotato

    August 15, 2021 at 3:21 pm

    I wonder if 19 years from now, we’ll still be reading about how Democrats are to blame for stupid Republican COVID decisions. My guess is that we will.

    Oh, you won’t have to wait 19 years.

     

  111. 111.

    Yutsano

    August 15, 2021 at 3:24 pm

    @Suzanne:  Honestly, you would think that getting more of these yokels into a profession like nursing would be easy. Male nurses are around a lot of females, which would increase their chances of finding a spouse. But nope. That’s “women’s work” and they can’t handle that.

    To be fair, that’s not the culture I grew up around. Instead, we would have the occasional dumb Marine or sailor* for Thanksgiving but after that my interactions with them would be limited. A lot of these idiots also find they hate military life (they’ve never really had discipline in their lives) and wash out after four years and go back home where they might get in with the sheriff if they’re lucky. They basically waste the only possible career they possibly could have for nothing.

    *I was a really smart kid by the age of eight. I could talk around our dinner guests and it annoyed my dad.

  112. 112.

    jimmiraybob

    August 15, 2021 at 3:25 pm

    “…and no combat death since Feb of 2020.”

    The date sounds familiar.  Oh yeah, Trump’s Doha Agreement with the Taliban, the deal that lit the fuse for today’s implosion.  Of course it’s now Uncle Joe’s fault for not terminating the agreement and sending in a half million combat troops to deal with the Taliban who have been preparing for over a year and a half to collect on their side of the bargain (/gallows sarcasm).  Or am I getting something wrong.

  113. 113.

    Poe Larity

    August 15, 2021 at 3:26 pm

    10/11/2000 debate:

    MR. BUSH — I don’t think so. I think what we need to do is convince people who live in the lands they live in to build the nations. Maybe I’m missing something here. I mean we’re going to have kind of a nation-building corps from America. Absolutely not. Our military is meant to fight and win war. That’s what it’s meant to do and when it gets overextended, morale drops. Well, listen, I strongly believe we need to have a military presence in the Korean peninsula not only to keep the peace in the peninsula but to keep regional stability. And I strongly believe we need to keep a presence in NATO. But I’m going to be judicious as to how to use the military. It needs to be in our vital interest. The mission needs to be clear and the exit strategy obvious.“

    Clearly, President Gore screwed up.

  114. 114.

    Mary G

    August 15, 2021 at 3:29 pm

    We reap what we sow:

    Taliban commander who's sitting in the Presidential Palace in #Kabul just told Aljazeera that he's spent 8 years in Guantanamo— Mohammad Ali Musawi (@malimusawi) August 15, 2021

    He was identified as Ruhani, so I believe he's Gholam Ruhani who was one of the first detainees at Guantanamo Bay and released in 2007https://t.co/koHJuYKgpo pic.twitter.com/cRBM0jywyT— Mohammad Ali Musawi (@malimusawi) August 15, 2021

  115. 115.

    trollhattan

    August 15, 2021 at 3:31 pm

    @mrmoshpotato:

    I remember when Walter Cronkite died (2009) wingnuts (aplenty, even then) cursed him for losing Vietnam for us.

  116. 116.

    zhena gogolia

    August 15, 2021 at 3:33 pm

    On the call with @SecBlinken and @SecDef this morning I confirmed that had Biden decided to abandon the agreement negotiated by President Trump, the U.S. would have had to surge thousands of additional troops into Afghanistan. The 2,500 that Trump had left were not nearly enough.— Chris Murphy (@ChrisMurphyCT) August 15, 2021

  117. 117.

    Dave

    August 15, 2021 at 3:35 pm

    @zhena gogolia: If that man had one talent it’s knowing how to craft a bad deal that screws everyone over worse than it does him.

  118. 118.

    Chris

    August 15, 2021 at 3:37 pm

    @Yutsano:

    To be fair, that’s not the culture I grew up around. Instead, we would have the occasional dumb Marine or sailor* for Thanksgiving but after that my interactions with them would be limited. A lot of these idiots also find they hate military life (they’ve never really had discipline in their lives) and wash out after four years and go back home where they might get in with the sheriff if they’re lucky. They basically waste the only possible career they possibly could have for nothing.

    I’ve had a theory for a while that one of our problems with police departments is that they’re littered with people who loved the idea of being in the military, but couldn’t hack it in the real one…

    … so the police is ideal for them.  They get to play with most of the same toys, without any of the discipline that made the Army such a drag, and with all the comforts that come with it being a 9-5 job close to home.

    It’s practically like being a kid playing soldier in your back yard again.  Only you get paid for it, and when you get a little too enthusiastic with your Super Soaker and douse the neighbors by accident, there’s no Mom and Dad to ground you for a week.

  119. 119.

    Jay C

    August 15, 2021 at 3:38 pm

    @trollhattan:

    I remember when Walter Cronkite died (2009) wingnuts (aplenty, even then) cursed him for losing Vietnam for us.

    Yeah, I recall following a link to an archive about 15 years ago of a piece filed by then(WWII)-war-correspondent Walter Cronkite: a harrowing account of accompanying glider-borne troops for Operation Market Garden (as typical, the glider crashed on landing, Cronkite and the soldiers barely escaped with their lives). It had precisely one comment on it: a bitter screed by some asshole calling Cronkite a “traitor” who “lost the Vietnam War” for us. Old BS dies hard…

  120. 120.

    Cermet

    August 15, 2021 at 3:40 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): First off, mass murder of civilians  – and that is what would also occur – is a war crime; not that that stops us. Next, useless killing of enemy soldiers just makes a more bitter winner. Nothing now would change the outcome except, maybe nukes.  That BS aside, the Taliban won and its best to step aside, allow all the deals to occur enabling less bloodshed and then do the smart thing: cut & run

    Except for guns and a few light weapons like mortars, the Taliban gain nothing – Jets, helicopters, even most military versions of trucks/Humvee’s and the like require massive infrastructure and parts that don’t exist there.

  121. 121.

    Mary G

    August 15, 2021 at 3:42 pm

    Thread (can be hard to read) of reports from Afghani women on the ground in Kabul:

    Hi, it's @KhushbuOShea, @FullerProject's Editor in Chief. I'm one of hundreds of foreign journalists who spent time in Afghanistan since 2001. Unlike many, I had the privilege of working for Afghan media companies. Here's what many former colleagues and Afghan journalists see:— The Fuller Project (@FullerProject) August 15, 2021

    The first one is striking; it’s one of a guy painting over advertisements featuring women.

  122. 122.

    Chris

    August 15, 2021 at 3:43 pm

    @Jay C:

    Blaming Walter Cronkite has been the military’s way to avoid responsibility for fucking up Vietnam for half a century.  And probably will be for half a century to come.

  123. 123.

    Cermet

    August 15, 2021 at 3:46 pm

    @Jay C: Indonesia is a rather nice country and a real democracy. See someone already pointed that out.

  124. 124.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?

    August 15, 2021 at 3:48 pm

    @Yutsano: I honestly don’t think it matters what “the narrative” on the end of this war is. I have plenty of Fox news brainwashed dopes on my Facebook feed. They jump on every stupid meme that parrots whatever controversy of the day the.conservative propaganda complex is pushing. It has been complete silence on Afghanistan.

    The only people who care about whose to blame for how we got out and that the place instantly fell apart are dipshit foreign policy analysts in green rooms in DC and NYC, and there aren’t enough of them to sway an election. I doubt this moves the needle at all, ever on any US election anywhere. People who know what is what know there was no good time or way to get out so why not now. The rest aren’t swaying public opinion by even micro meter.

  125. 125.

    zhena gogolia

    August 15, 2021 at 3:48 pm

    @Dave:

    Yep.

  126. 126.

    BigJimSlade

    August 15, 2021 at 3:48 pm

    @Chris: Not really arguing the New Dealers vs neocons point, but the New Dealers got to rebuild 2 countries with a super-strong, even cult-like, national identity (even if this was recent for Germany). Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty much the opposite. I’m not sure New Dealers could’ve overcome that. It would’ve been a better effort, though.

  127. 127.

    Soprano2

    August 15, 2021 at 3:50 pm

    @Chris:  My husband can tell you about the Tet Offensive from a first person point of view. He would say both that it was wrongly reported in the U.S. and that it showed what the N. Vietnamese could do. It certainly was not the end of the war

    He worked with the South Vietnamese teaching tactics and shooting. He says we made all the same mistakes in Afghanistan that we did there, and that if we refuse to understand the people in a country we’re doomed to failure.

  128. 128.

    Citizen Alan

    August 15, 2021 at 3:54 pm

    @Suzanne:

    I don’t think anything I have ever said aloud has pissed off people who claim to be Christian as much as when I asked idly  what Jesus would have done had he been president on 911.  Because not one American Christian in 10,000 would have ever considered turning the other cheek and loving those who hate you as viable responses.

  129. 129.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    August 15, 2021 at 3:55 pm

    @Cermet:

    Where did that tweeter say anything about mass murdering civilians?

  130. 130.

    Matt McIrvin

    August 15, 2021 at 3:57 pm

    @Sloane Ranger: War is possibly the most predictable venue for the sunk-cost fallacy.

  131. 131.

    sdhays

    August 15, 2021 at 3:58 pm

    I really don’t understand how anyone, ANYONE, can look at what’s happening now in Afghanistan and not feel totally betrayed by just about the entirety of the US foreign policy establishment, both inside and outside the government. And that Biden was totally right back in 2009 when he pushed the Obama Administration to get out. Just weeks ago, I actually believed that the the Afghan government would be tottering for at least a year or two while the Afghan military was forced to cede more and more ground. But instead, within WEEKS of the final American withdrawal, the “President of Afghanistan” is fleeing the country and Kabul is essentially the Taliban’s.

    As others have said, we (poorly) spent 20 years and $1 TRILLION in Afghanistan, and if after all of that, it fell this quickly, anyone suggesting that this is Biden’s fault is not a serious person. We really should have been out of there years and years ago. Every fucking “Serious Person” who has kept pushing for continued occupation of Afghanistan for the past 15 years should be forced to leave public policy or public commentary and take up knitting (no offense to knitters – hand knitted stuff is awesome!) or something similar that keeps them quiet and limits the damage they can do.

  132. 132.

    Mike in NC

    August 15, 2021 at 3:58 pm

    Maybe some clever person translated “The Art of the Deal” into Pashtun and they knew what they were reading was bullshit.

  133. 133.

    Pappenheimer

    August 15, 2021 at 4:02 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Many in the West assume there are no progressive Moslems, or that they are a tiny minority who can’t

     

    @Amir Khalid: A lot of Americans have never heard of any progressive Moslems. Of course, I have also been told that Obama was both a Muslim and a Communist, and I have to admit I’ve never met that combination.

  134. 134.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    August 15, 2021 at 4:04 pm

    @Citizen Alan:

    What did they say in response, if I may ask?

  135. 135.

    raven

    August 15, 2021 at 4:06 pm

    @Soprano2: I’m sure he knows the shock troops in Tet were largely VC and not NVA.

  136. 136.

    Chris

    August 15, 2021 at 4:08 pm

    @BigJimSlade: 

    Put it like this: when the CPA ended up in charge of Iraq, the first thing they did was to disband the military; de facto disband the civil service through de-Baathification; and destroy the government’s revenue stream by turning it into a Fair Tax playground. In other words, they Drowned The Government In The Bathtub. And they didn’t even try to do anything to fill the vacuum with their own people, because the Bushies had expressly told them not to bother planning for the aftermath because we wouldn’t be there that long, and had sent way less troops into Iraq than were needed to keep the country under any kind of occupation.

    Compare and contrast Germany and Japan, where the postwar occupation was very aware of the need to 1) not completely destroy the state, and 2) commit a shit ton of men and resources to a long-term occupation. (Which, of course, they’d started planning for all the way back in 1942, because they weren’t idiots).

    So, yeah. It might or might not have worked in the end. It certainly would have been a better effort.

    Or to put it another way, if you asked the WW2 era leadership to handle an invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, they might very well have failed. But if you asked the Dubya era leadership to handle Germany and Japan, they would have fucked it up horribly from end to end.

  137. 137.

    waratah

    August 15, 2021 at 4:16 pm

    I thought my grandfather said it was the Turks that would silently cross over during the night to the winning side.

  138. 138.

    Ruckus

    August 15, 2021 at 4:17 pm

    @sdhays: 
    Picking up trash, the more and the nastier in their shoulder bag gets them a bonus. So that would get them $8.75/hr. A one dollar bonus over the shithead minimum wage. The rest of the country should get $15/hr, just in case you were wondering. For the first time in their lives they would be doing something useful and getting paid what they are worth.

  139. 139.

    Cermet

    August 15, 2021 at 4:21 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Sending in a c-130 gun ship will kill many civilians as it rains death upon military units – road routes are used by civilians and taliban units will bunch up at said villages. Massive attacks as indicated by the poster’s boxed quotes would have killed many civilians.

  140. 140.

    Soprano2

    August 15, 2021 at 4:21 pm

    @Mary G: That thread confirms what I’ve been thinking the past few days, that many of the men in most of Afghanistan aren’t that sad to see the Taliban take over. They aren’t trying that hard to stop it.

  141. 141.

    Soprano2

    August 15, 2021 at 4:22 pm

    @raven: I’m sure you’re right, I’m not sure of that stuff. They sound like a lot of the same people to me.

  142. 142.

    sdhays

    August 15, 2021 at 4:26 pm

    @Ruckus: Good idea. They can explain to the dog shit which country should be invaded next and how many other people’s lives they’re “willing” sacrifice for that effort.

  143. 143.

    Another Scott

    August 15, 2021 at 4:26 pm

    @Dave:  Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  144. 144.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    August 15, 2021 at 4:31 pm

    @Cermet:

    Oh. I didn’t realize that. Well then I agree, that sounds horrible and is a terrible idea

  145. 145.

    Ruckus

    August 15, 2021 at 4:32 pm

    @Soprano2:

    They have been in a war zone for a very long time. We were there for a very long time and accomplished what?

    I’d bet that a lot of people that had been in that situation, anywhere, would like stability and living over perfect or even good government. Do they like the Taliban? I’d bet some yes, many no. But living in a war zone can not be a lot of fun. Many of the citizens have not much to lose past their lives. We live in a country that is very wealthy compared to theirs, even people low on the totem pole in the US often are better off than a lot of other countries citizens when there is a war on in their country. And we can and need to do a lot better for us before we tell and try to force the rest of the world how they need to live. And yes the Taliban is horrible and women will have zero agency, which is very, very wrong. I’d ask, how much better did we make their country in 20 yrs?

  146. 146.

    raven

    August 15, 2021 at 4:33 pm

    @Soprano2: I assume he was MACV?

  147. 147.

    Another Scott

    August 15, 2021 at 4:34 pm

    @MazeDancer: Thanks for the pointer.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  148. 148.

    Ruckus

    August 15, 2021 at 4:35 pm

    @sdhays:

    I don’t even want them trying to take over dog shit. They obviously aren’t worthy.

  149. 149.

    Geminid

    August 15, 2021 at 4:51 pm

    @Pappenheimer: It’s true that a lot of Americans have not heard of progressive Muslims. But we are very incurious about foreign affairs and people. The current crisis illustrates this in a way. Afghanistan has been a slow motion failure for years now, but most Americans paid little or no attention until the events of the past week.  This time next month, Afghanistan will only be occasionally noticed, even if the bloodshed continues.

  150. 150.

    Patricia Kayden

    August 15, 2021 at 4:51 pm

    Thanks Trump.

    Taliban co-founder Mullah Baradar was released from a Pakastani prison in 2018 after President Trump made the request as a part of peace talks.Baradar is now set to become the President of Afghanistan following the collapse of the Afghan government.https://t.co/T0IjtA2WTU— Travis Akers (@travisakers) August 15, 2021

  151. 151.

    nasruddin

    August 15, 2021 at 4:59 pm

    @sdhays:

    I am thinking (absent any evidence of course) that the fix was in on this on the Afghani side for some time (note that the Pres Ghani & some other officials vanished safely & rapidly).  On the other hand Blinken looked like a deer in the headlights this morning on Tapper – Mr Biden &al had NO IDEA Afghanistan was going to roll up like a Persian carpet.  Put that together – where was the “intelligence” for the American operation coming from?  The US was puffing on the hash pipe & getting what it wanted to hear from its friends.  I suspect some of those “translators” clamoring for visas are among them.  They were just doing their job as they saw it but we have a real serious intelligence problem that is probably ubiquitous.

    If Mr Biden’s team did know this was going down this way they are putting on a convincing naivete act.  Let’s hope there’s been some negotiating behind the scenes so there’s no further developments.

  152. 152.

    Geminid

    August 15, 2021 at 5:02 pm

    @Mike in NC: The Taliban did not need a team of psycologists to tell them that trump cared about no one but trump. They just told him what he wanted to hear and then went about their business.

    But I am struck by the way trump focused on getting us out of Afghanistan in a way he focused on little else besides his reelection. It could be trump was just building his isolationist brand. But I sometimes wonder if trump was fulfilling an obligation to his master Putin.

  153. 153.

    sab

    August 15, 2021 at 5:14 pm

    @Geminid: Or the Saudis.

  154. 154.

    Geminid

    August 15, 2021 at 5:28 pm

    @sab: Well, the Russians and the Saudis talk to each other plenty, and I bet they are more candid with each other than they are with the U.S.

  155. 155.

    Brachiator

    August 15, 2021 at 5:30 pm

    @Cermet:

    That BS aside, the Taliban won and its best to step aside, allow all the deals to occur enabling less bloodshed and then do the smart thing: cut & run

    We need to leave, but there will be no deals enabling less bloodshed.

    Except for guns and a few light weapons like mortars, the Taliban gain nothing – Jets, helicopters, even most military versions of trucks/Humvee’s and the like require massive infrastructure and parts that don’t exist there.

    Interesting point. I suppose this is true. Did the Afghan army have any jets or helicopters, or was this maintained and operated by the US and Brits, etc?

    I suppose that the Taliban will use some other equipment until it breaks down.

  156. 156.

    Geminid

    August 15, 2021 at 5:40 pm

    @Brachiator: The Afghan government had helicopters, and a small fleet of light fighter bombers. The Taliban will at least be able to get parts for some of their helicopters, Russian models designed for high altitude flying.

  157. 157.

    Another Scott

    August 15, 2021 at 5:40 pm

    @Steeplejack:  Oh man!!

    Doug is a master.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  158. 158.

    Dan B

    August 15, 2021 at 5:44 pm

    @Yutsano: Our relationship with the Saudi’s is toxic.  They plan to build a multi billion dollar linear city that will have to go underground to survive the heat apocalypse.  They stick to their tribal era Islam and their oil.  Will they be able to desalinate enough water and grow food indoors?

     

    Sufism is lovely.  War destroys the beautiful.

  159. 159.

    IbnBob

    August 15, 2021 at 6:03 pm

    @Ohio Mom: 
    kinda my point

  160. 160.

    eddie blake

    August 15, 2021 at 6:11 pm

    “when you’re wounded and left on afghanistan’s plains,
    and the women come out to cut up what remains,
    jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
    an’ go to your gawd like a soldier.”

  161. 161.

    Another Scott

    August 15, 2021 at 6:17 pm

    @Geminid: It sounds like there’s not going to be any more fighting, at least that’s the spin.

    AlJazeera:

    By Hamza Mohamed and Ramy Allahoum

    15 Aug 2021

    One of the Taliban’s top officials has said the real test of governing is set to begin, after the group entered the Afghan capital, Kabul, and took control of the presidential palace.

    Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, who heads the Taliban’s political bureau, said in a brief video statement on Sunday that the test would begin with meeting the expectations of Afghans and resolving their problems.

    Al Jazeera obtained exclusive footage of Taliban leaders, surrounded by dozens of armed fighters, addressing the media from the country’s seat of power earlier on Sunday.

    They entered the palace after President Ashraf Ghani fled the country amid the Taliban’s rapid advance, which saw the group capture 26 of Afghanistan’s 34 provincial capitals in less than two weeks.

    Ghani later said in a statement posted on Facebook that he fled to prevent further bloodshed.

    “The Taliban have won with the judgement of their swords and guns, and are now responsible for the honour, property and self-preservation of their countrymen,” he said.

    […]

    Meanwhile, a Taliban spokesman told Al Jazeera those who worked with the West-backed government and military will be offered amnesty.

    […]

    True? Who knows.

    I’m sure most of the population is tired of 40+ years of war.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  162. 162.

    Jinchi

    August 15, 2021 at 6:25 pm

    We had 2500, and no combat death since Feb of 2020. That sounds like serious progress…

    Anyone remember how many combat deaths we had in Germany in February of 1965?​

    Just writing the statement should have been a good indication that we were making no progress in Afghanistan.

  163. 163.

    dilbert dogbert

    August 15, 2021 at 6:36 pm

    The invaders were not ejected.  They came like the Spanish seeking the Golden Cities.  Finding none they left.

  164. 164.

    Brachiator

    August 15, 2021 at 6:37 pm

    @Another Scott:

    True?

    Probably not.

    I’m sure most of the population is tired of 40+ years of war.

    They may be feeling apprehensive. Cessation of hostilities is not the same thing as peace.

  165. 165.

    Geminid

    August 15, 2021 at 6:52 pm

    @Another Scott: Well, I did not say there would be more fighting. But fighting or no, the Taliban are going to keep those helicopters flying if they can. The Taliban could never win control of the entire country last time they were in power. They seem to be in a good position to achieve it this time around, but they will not take peace for granted.

  166. 166.

    Robert Sneddon

    August 15, 2021 at 6:56 pm

    @Jinchi: ​
      Actually there were a number of combat deaths in Afghanistan earlier this year, attacks and suicide bombings but the casualties were limited to Afghan Army and police and no white people were harmed so those deaths don’t count. See also “All Quiet on the Western Front.”

  167. 167.

    Laura Too

    August 15, 2021 at 7:01 pm

    @raven: (66) Thanks. That song always distills the wars in a way that nothing else does.

  168. 168.

    Geminid

    August 15, 2021 at 7:06 pm

    @Brachiator: Taliban leadership may mean it about the amnesty. Combat commanders may take a different view of things. Hopefully, they will go along and not settle scores.

  169. 169.

    Brachiator

    August 15, 2021 at 7:15 pm

    @Geminid:

    Taliban leadership may mean it about the amnesty.

    It would be a hopeful gesture.

    We will see what happens.

  170. 170.

    The Moar You Know

    August 15, 2021 at 7:23 pm

    At the very least, I hope the US is extraordinarily generous with the green cards and visas and such for our allies and Afghan activitists, etc.  I don’t know where you draw the line as to who gets out.

    @Almost Retired:  At this point, I can say pretty confidently that nobody’s getting out.  Our forces aren’t there yet and Kabul’s going to fall by Wednesday at the latest.  This “30-90” days thing we’ve been hearing is bullshit.  A lot of Americans are going to die.

  171. 171.

    Butter Emails

    August 15, 2021 at 7:27 pm

    @The Moar You Know:

     A lot of Americans are going to die.

    I doubt this will occur as it would almost certainly trigger a new full scale invasion.

  172. 172.

    nasruddin

    August 15, 2021 at 7:28 pm

    @Geminid: I remind you all that Afghanistan has some history of overrunning its neighbors in recent times.  Ethnic ties cross every one of its borders.

  173. 173.

    joel hanes

    August 15, 2021 at 7:33 pm

    @sdhays:

    We really should have been out of there years and years ago.

    We should have left the month after they let Bin Laden get away at Tora Bora.

  174. 174.

    nasruddin

    August 15, 2021 at 7:34 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Taliban leadership may mean it about the amnesty.

    Maybe what we are hearing as “amnesty” is part of the fix that was in that led to the fall of the Afghan client state.  We just don’t have any understanding of shifting, transactional alliances that is common in Afghanistan.  You’d have to go back to the days of feudalism in Europe for that.

    In other words the amnesty deals happened a while ago.  The map sure suggests something….

  175. 175.

    Mary G

    August 15, 2021 at 7:38 pm

    2020 to 2021 pic.twitter.com/pXH22LowmT— Josh Warburton (@JoshWarburton2) August 15, 2021

  176. 176.

    Another Scott

    August 15, 2021 at 7:43 pm

    @The Moar You Know: Maybe not.

    DW.com (last updated at 21:44 GMT, about 2 hours ago):

    US authorizes another 1,000 troops to aid evacuations
    The US is sending another 1,000 troops to support evacuations from Kabul airport amid reports of scattered gunfire, officials said.

    According to a US defense official cited by the AP news agency, the soldiers were heading directly to Kabul instead of going to Kuwait as a standby force.

    British troops arrive in Kabul
    Britain’s Defense Ministry said UK troops have landed in Kabul to help the evacuation mission.

    Johnson said British nationals were the priority, as well as Afghans who helped British forces in Afghanistan over the past 20 years.

    “The ambassador is working round the clock, has been there in the airport to help process the applications,” Johnson said after chairing an emergency Cabinet meeting.

    […]

    Germany sending military planes to Kabul, says foreign minister
    German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas said that Bundeswehr planes are being deployed to help with evacuation efforts in Kabul.

    In a brief statement to reporters on Sunday evening, Maas said those who are being evacuated will be brought to a neighboring country and then will use civilian, passenger planes to fly them back to Germany.

    Some German staff will be flown out already on Sunday night, he said.

    Maas said that the security of the German embassy staff and local partners “is paramount.”

    Germany closed its embassy in Kabul earlier on Sunday, moving its staff to a location at Kabul airport. He said that the staff “are safe.”

    […]

    So far, the Taliban seems to have no interest in preventing foreigners, etc., from leaving.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  177. 177.

    Another Scott

    August 15, 2021 at 8:01 pm

    “We must be careful not to embark on an open-ended war with neither an exit strategy nor a focused target. We cannot repeat past mistakes.” —The Honorable @RepBarbaraLee opposing military force authorization on Afghanistan, September 14, 2001 pic.twitter.com/53MTl22sk9

    — Kumar Rao (@KumarRaoNYC) August 15, 2021

    (via CharlesPPierce)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  178. 178.

    Another Scott

    August 15, 2021 at 8:17 pm

    As of about 27 minutes ago:

    US takes over air traffic control at Karzai airport and plans massive airlift of thousands of Americans and “particularly vulnerable Afghan nationals” out of the country, secured by 6k troops around the airport, the State and Defense Depts say in a joint statement. https://t.co/0rr93idjqI

    — southpaw (@nycsouthpaw) August 15, 2021

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  179. 179.

    Geminid

    August 15, 2021 at 8:25 pm

    @nasruddin: So what neighbors do you think are vulnerable to a Taliban attack?

  180. 180.

    Brachiator

    August 15, 2021 at 8:27 pm

    @Another Scott:

    US takes over air traffic control at Karzai airport and plans massive airlift of thousands of Americans and “particularly vulnerable Afghan nationals” out of the country

    We have all been here before.

    Reminds me of the final airlifts out of South Vietnam.

  181. 181.

    Geminid

    August 15, 2021 at 8:28 pm

    @nasruddin: And what would the Taliban stand to gain?

  182. 182.

    Brachiator

    August 15, 2021 at 8:33 pm

    @The Moar You Know:

    This “30-90” days thing we’ve been hearing is bullshit.  A lot of Americans are going to die.

    The Taliban want the Americans out as soon as possible. Killing Americans would complicate and delay things.

    Americans are safe. The Afghan people, not so much.

  183. 183.

    Soprano2

    August 15, 2021 at 8:50 pm

    @raven: I don’t know. He was Army, I think he was a 1st or 2nd lieutenant when he was there. He went to OCS, but didn’t have a degree. He was a captain when he was RIF’d in 1972, stationed at Ft. Wood. He wanted to make the Army a career but wasn’t willing to go back to being an enlisted man.

  184. 184.

    James E Powell

    August 15, 2021 at 8:56 pm

    @Geminid:

    But all over the country, how many local scores will be settled?

  185. 185.

    topclimber

    August 15, 2021 at 9:39 pm

    @Brachiator: And yet, heartbreaking as those pictures were, I don’t think Vietnam saw wholesale slaughter of the losers and today is a potential ally against China.

    Too bad the neocons of the day didn’t understand that we were fighting against folks who wanted to run their own country.

    Perhaps via diplomatic vs. military engagement with the Afghanis, we might see a similar result.

  186. 186.

    nasruddin

    August 16, 2021 at 1:00 am

    @Geminid: All of them, except Iran, are vulnerable.  I wonder how stable Pakistan really is.  That would be the prize.  There’s a lot of former or disputed Afghan territory in Pakistan.

    Then there’s nearby Kashmir.   That’s a box of dynamite.

    Once US & NATO are out of their patch, then we will see what their program is, & maybe the cost of all the alliances with old rivals they have made.  The last time it was Al Qaeda.  That didn’t work so well.   Maybe they will  turn inward & be content to burn western books and beat women.   Doubt it.

  187. 187.

    Geminid

    August 16, 2021 at 7:28 am

    @nasruddin: You’re right, Kashmir would be a possible area for Taliban meddling. By 2020, the Northern Alliance held the only part of Afghanistan unconquered by the Taliban, and this land bordered on. India may well have been their suppliers. Since Pakistan’s ISI was the Taliban’s sponsor, the Pakistanis could require the Taliban to lend a hand in their campaign to undermine India’s rule in Kashmir.

    Would the Taliban comply? Maybe to some extent. They could always let ISI elements in northern Afghanistan work their mischief. But it seems to me the Taliban know they have their hands full reuniting and rebuilding a nation of 40 million fractious people. Job one is probably establishing firm control over their own forces. They have been united by a common enemy for 20 years. Now divisions may arise as political leaders return from exile and deal with commanders who never left. The ISI could meddle here. But as you point out, meddling in Afghanistan could blow back on Pakistan, itself not so stable a country.

  188. 188.

    nasruddin

    August 16, 2021 at 11:23 am

    @Geminid:

    I’m not sure we know who’s really in the driver’s seat.  People keep talking about the ISI …  if the ISI is truly still running the Taliban, then that is one of the most successful intelligence operations in history & that ISI faction should be in charge by weight of its prestige and capability.

    On the other hand, maybe ISI is more like part of Taliban’s Pakistan department.  Maybe Pakistan is going to go thru some (more) things.  Pakistan nukes … what a prize that would be.

    the Taliban know they have their hands full reuniting and rebuilding a nation of 40 million fractious people….

    Rebuilding?  Oh well they are certainly very capable of learning and adapting but this hasn’t been part of their skill set during their history.  Uniting against a common enemy and for religion, tho, that works.  Why won’t they just keep doing what succeeds?

    I just had this thought:  the Bay of Pigs is not such a big deal really, except that it sets you up for the Cuban missile crisis.

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