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You are here: Home / Politics / Biden Administration in Action / Foreign Affairs Open Thread: Talking With / About the Taliban

Foreign Affairs Open Thread: Talking With / About the Taliban

by Anne Laurie|  October 12, 20214:35 pm| 108 Comments

This post is in: Biden Administration in Action, C.R.E.A.M., Foreign Affairs

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Hunh. Biden's doing a virtual G20 summit on Afghanistan tomorrow pic.twitter.com/9hIRuVZV6S

— Oblivier Knocks (@OKnox) October 12, 2021

Per Reuters:

Italian Prime Minister Mario Draghi will host a special summit of the Group of 20 major economies on Tuesday to discuss Afghanistan, as worries grow about a looming humanitarian disaster following the Taliban’s return to power.

Since the Taliban took over Afghanistan on Aug. 15, the country – already struggling with drought and severe poverty after decades of war – has seen its economy all but collapse, raising the spectre of an exodus of refugees.

The video conference, which is due to start at 1 p.m. (1100 GMT), will focus on aid needs, concerns over security and ways of guaranteeing safe passage abroad for thousands of Western-allied Afghans still in the country…

Italy, which holds the rotating presidency of the G20, has worked hard to set up the meeting in the face of highly divergent views within the disparate group on how to deal with Afghanistan after the chaotic U.S. withdrawal from Kabul.

“The main problem is that Western countries want to put their finger on the way the Taliban run the country, how they treat women for example, while China and Russia on the other hand have a non-interference foreign policy,” said a diplomatic source close to the matter.

China has publicly demanded that economic sanctions on Afghanistan be lifted and that billions of dollars in Afghan international assets be unfrozen and handed back to Kabul. It was not clear if this would even be discussed on Tuesday…

This comes after US/Taliban talks over the weekend:

The U.S. has agreed to provide humanitarian aid to a desperately poor Afghanistan on the brink of an economic disaster, while refusing to give political recognition to the country's new Taliban rulers, the Taliban said. https://t.co/L3lurWSy7s

— The Associated Press (@AP) October 10, 2021

The U.S. has agreed to provide humanitarian aid to a desperately poor Afghanistan on the brink of an economic disaster, while refusing to give political recognition to the country’s new Taliban rulers, the Taliban said Sunday.

The statement came at the end of the first direct talks between the former foes since the chaotic withdrawal of U.S. troops at the end of August.

The U.S. statement was less definitive, saying only that the two sides “discussed the United States’ provision of robust humanitarian assistance, directly to the Afghan people.” …

The United States made it clear that the talks were in no way a preamble to recognition of the Taliban, who swept into power Aug. 15 after the U.S.-allied government collapsed.

State Department spokesman Ned Price called the discussions “candid and professional,” with the U.S. side reiterating that the Taliban will be judged on their actions, not only their words.

“The U.S. delegation focused on security and terrorism concerns and safe passage for U.S. citizens, other foreign nationals and our Afghan partners, as well as on human rights, including the meaningful participation of women and girls in all aspects of Afghan society,” he said in a statement…

US concludes first direct talks with Taliban since withdrawal https://t.co/ObYtZb6CTB

— BBC News (World) (@BBCWorld) October 11, 2021

… The talks were held as Afghanistan faces what aid workers fear is a severe humanitarian crisis.

UN Secretary-General António Guterres warned at a donor conference last month in Geneva that the poverty rate was soaring and public services were close to collapse.

Some 40% of the country’s GDP – national output – comes from aid, according to the World Bank.

The US froze $10bn (£7.3bn) of the country’s central bank assets after the Taliban captured Kabul on 15 August.

For the poor in Kabul, the priority is staving off starvation, the BBC’s Jeremy Bowen recently reported from the Afghan capital…

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Reader Interactions

108Comments

  1. 1.

    schrodingers_cat

    October 12, 2021 at 4:59 pm

    Afghanistan is going to be a festering wound on the body politic. Modi’s government through its elaborate IT disinformation apparatus is touting Taliban’s return to power as an existential threat to India and its Hindu population.

    Which is nonsense but many who should know better are falling for it.

    Also, this a big win for Pakistan’s military and the ISI, bad faith actors in a volatile region of the world.

  2. 2.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 5:16 pm

    The main problem is that Western countries want to put their finger on the way the Taliban run the country, how they treat women for example, while China and Russia on the other hand have a non-interference foreign policy,” said a diplomatic source close to the matter

    Let’s be clear, this is a problem for Democratic administrations.

  3. 3.

    Old School

    October 12, 2021 at 5:18 pm

    Highlights of the end results of the meeting:

    Much of the aid effort will be channelled through the United Nations, but there will also be direct country-to-country assistance, despite a refusal by most states to officially recognise the hardline Taliban government.

    …
    In a joint statement after the meeting, the G20 leaders called on the Taliban to tackle militant groups operating out of the country. They said future humanitarian programs should focus on women and girls, and that safe passage should be given to those Afghans who wished to leave the country.

    Ahead of the meeting, China demanded that economic sanctions on Afghanistan be lifted and that billions of dollars of Afghan international assets be unfrozen and handed back to Kabul.

    The United States and Britain, where many of the assets are being held, are resisting this effort, and there was no mention of the matter in the final statement.

  4. 4.

    Teoconut

    October 12, 2021 at 5:20 pm

    Question: What’s the WH response to people who say that vaccine mandates have reduced the workforce? Psaki: I know world renowned business travel and health expert Senator Ted Cruz has made that point but…. https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1447993986518503431?s=20

  5. 5.

    Fair Economist

    October 12, 2021 at 5:22 pm

    After 20 years of US “assistance”, 40% of the GDP comes from aid? In an era when rapid growth is the norm for poor countries? That’s really inexcusable, and another demonstration that we weren’t helping anybody other than military contractors by being in Afghanistan.

  6. 6.

    dopey-o

    October 12, 2021 at 5:24 pm

    My understanding was that the ISI groomed the Taliban to backstop Pakistan’s fight with India.  I am sure that Adam could explain the actual history. But having a ready supply of mujahadeen and suicide bombers  certainly strengthens Pakistan.

    Religious fanatics with nuclear weapons on both sides portends trouble.

  7. 7.

    SpaceUnit

    October 12, 2021 at 5:25 pm

    Call me crazy, but I’m starting to think Afghanistan is a bad investment.

  8. 8.

    The Moar You Know

    October 12, 2021 at 5:30 pm

    Personally don’t think we, or any other nation, should be sending Afghanistan anything.  They allowed the Taliban to come to power again; let them enjoy the sparse fruits of that decision.

    More to the point, a nation state that exists on money generated by what amounts to international blackmail is just a bad fuckin’ idea.

  9. 9.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    October 12, 2021 at 5:33 pm

    @Teoconut: Heh.

  10. 10.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    October 12, 2021 at 5:38 pm

    @Teoconut: Psaki: I know world renowned business travel and health expert Senator Ted Cruz has made that point but…

    hehehe

  11. 11.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    October 12, 2021 at 5:39 pm

    @dopey-o: Pakistan may regret that if the Afghan economy implodes by 40%.

  12. 12.

    Anne Laurie

    October 12, 2021 at 5:42 pm

    @Old School:  Thanks.

    I scheduled this post to show up just before the G20 virtual meeting today, but FYWP didn’t cooperate.  Figured I’d put it up anyway, so y’all would have a dedicated space to talk about it, if anyone wanted.

  13. 13.

    catclub

    October 12, 2021 at 5:48 pm

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Pakistan may regret that if the Afghan economy implodes by 40%.

     

    Yeah, Pakistan may be the dog that caught the car.

  14. 14.

    Dan B

    October 12, 2021 at 5:49 pm

    @Teoconut: Best chuckle of the day, thanks!

  15. 15.

    stacib

    October 12, 2021 at 5:51 pm

    @The Moar You Know: I’m with you on this one.  Why should the U.S. send money to the Taliban with the “hope” that it will reach the intended targets?

  16. 16.

    SpaceUnit

    October 12, 2021 at 5:52 pm

    Perhaps the US should technically unfreeze that 10 billion but set it aside in a trust and only allow it to be used for food and humanitarian goods.  Never for weapons or military equipment.

  17. 17.

    lowtechcyclist

    October 12, 2021 at 5:52 pm

    @The Moar You Know:

    Personally don’t think we, or any other nation, should be sending Afghanistan anything.  They allowed the Taliban to come to power again; let them enjoy the sparse fruits of that decision.

    A hard NO to that.  Call me pro-life*, but if there are people who would starve in the streets without our help, I say let’s help.

    *which I very much am, when it comes to the lives of people who are already born and stuff

    ETA: But yeah, I’d want the U.N. to distribute the aid in-country, to make sure it was getting to the people who needed it.

  18. 18.

    Dan B

    October 12, 2021 at 5:54 pm

    @catclub: Seems as though a refugee crisis is on the way.  Pakistan and Iran seem like the most likely states affected although I know little of the geography of Iran near the Afghan border.  Pakistan seems closest to the most populated regions of Afghanistan.

  19. 19.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 5:55 pm

    @SpaceUnit:

    They can’t give it to Afghani* officials then.  Maybe an NGO who is willing to do direct services.

     

    * Can never remember when the “i” is appropriate.

  20. 20.

    Anne Laurie

    October 12, 2021 at 5:56 pm

    @The Moar You Know: Personally don’t think we, or any other nation, should be sending Afghanistan anything. They allowed the Taliban to come to power again; let them enjoy the sparse fruits of that decision.

    Except… the people (most) responsible for the current sad state of affairs won’t miss one meal or lose one night’s sleep, while millions of innocents will suffer and die.   That’s not a choice we want to make.

    Even if you want to be ‘realpolitik’ about it, there are many Americans — including, don’t forget, those who have relatives / friends / former war comrades still in Afghanistan — who will do their best to provide aid through ‘non official’ channels if ‘our’ official policy is to sit on our hands.   That’s been established as a bad policy choice, going back at least to the (first) Biafran independence war back in the 1970s.

    Also, if (as) Afghanistan falls into chaos, Pakistan is going to reap every bad result it’s sown, and Pakistan has nukes (as does India, which is looking very nervously at their Islamabad counterparts right now), and not even the most cold-eyed ‘realist’ wants to play Risk board games with those tokens.

  21. 21.

    Ohio Mom

    October 12, 2021 at 5:56 pm

    I don’t mind giving Afghans financial support. We screwed them over with that unnecessary war and turned a blind eye to everyone who skimmed money meant to create a stable nation-state.

    All we accomplished was enabling corruption. I think of any support we would provide as a form of reparations.

  22. 22.

    Dan B

    October 12, 2021 at 5:59 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: It seems likely that aid will be handled by local warlords and Taliban leaders.  A crisis looms no matter what we do if the Taliban will not allow observers.  It appears that Russia and China want laissez faire but the Taliban would be unlikely to allow them in either.

  23. 23.

    SpaceUnit

    October 12, 2021 at 5:59 pm

    @Baud:

    Well, how about Britney Spears’ dad?  He’s got some experience in this area.

  24. 24.

    Benw

    October 12, 2021 at 5:59 pm

    Speaking of Afghanistan, the Braves should really try to wrap this series up tonight.

  25. 25.

    Chetan Murthy

    October 12, 2021 at 6:00 pm

    How much of that money came from Western government and Western NGOs?  B/c that ain’t the fuckin’ Taliban’s money.  We should claw it all back.

  26. 26.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 6:00 pm

    @Benw:

    I heard they decided to put it off until the next game.

  27. 27.

    zhena gogolia

    October 12, 2021 at 6:01 pm

    @Baud: Apparently it’s not.

  28. 28.

    Ohio Mom

    October 12, 2021 at 6:01 pm

    @Baud:

    NotMax taught me that it’s always Afghan unless you are talking about the currency, then it’s Afghani.

    Myself, I’m still getting used to saying “Ukraine” without the “The.” It sounds wrong to my ears, as does dropping the “i” from Afghan.

  29. 29.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 6:02 pm

    @SpaceUnit:

    I bet the Taliban’s Vegas show would be amazing.

  30. 30.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 6:03 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Thanks.  I always think Afghan is the rug so the “i” is required.  I have it somewhat backwards.

  31. 31.

    Dan B

    October 12, 2021 at 6:04 pm

    @Ohio Mom: There are likely to be a few warlords and Taliban who will distribute aid where it is needed but they will have to supplicate their fighters.  People without money to pay for food will be at terrible risk.  They won the war but winning the peace will be much more difficult in a feudal society.

  32. 32.

    SpaceUnit

    October 12, 2021 at 6:04 pm

    @Baud:

    I think Branson, MO might be a better match.

  33. 33.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 6:05 pm

    @SpaceUnit:

    Good call.

  34. 34.

    debbie

    October 12, 2021 at 6:06 pm

    Is “hunh” some sort of new expression the youths are using?

  35. 35.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 6:08 pm

    @debbie:

    It stands for hyperbolic hun.

  36. 36.

    debbie

    October 12, 2021 at 6:08 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Don’t let G&T see that.

  37. 37.

    Dan B

    October 12, 2021 at 6:08 pm

    @Baud: I thought it was the knitted throw, like the one I wore as a skirt one Halloween.

     

    Please note the fate of the people of Afghanistan troubles me deeply, especially women and LGBTQ people.  And there will be young men forced into military service and fathers who will lose loved ones.

  38. 38.

    debbie

    October 12, 2021 at 6:08 pm

    @Baud:

    Heh.

  39. 39.

    debbie

    October 12, 2021 at 6:10 pm

    @Anne Laurie:

    I think we need to require the aid be delivered directly to the people by the UN and/or NGOs. Skip the middlemen altogether.

  40. 40.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 6:12 pm

    @Dan B:

    There are lots of people in lots of places facing lots of terrible conditions.  Afghanistan is different because of our history there and also because of geopolitical considerations, but I’m not sure how unique its suffering is.

  41. 41.

    Ksmiami

    October 12, 2021 at 6:13 pm

    I dunno l; this dwarfs the aid we give to Israel and if it smooths over some hostility to the west it’s probably a decent bet. There’s a reason why Marshall plan politics works internationally versus Punic war settlements that pave the way for more chaos, death etc. In fact. The biggest mistake the US ever made was not crushing the Confederacy and then rebuilding it in the likeness of the north…

  42. 42.

    debbie

    October 12, 2021 at 6:15 pm

    The ever-timely Frontline will be covering the Taliban takeover tonight.

  43. 43.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 6:18 pm

    @debbie:

    I don’t trust any media when it comes to reporting on Afghanistan.

  44. 44.

    Chetan Murthy

    October 12, 2021 at 6:18 pm

    @Ksmiami: We tried “let’s bribe them to be nice” with Pakistan and look what it got us.  Let Pakistan deal with this shitshow.  And let’s remember that money is fungible.  Every dollar we send, frees up a dollar that the Taliban and the ISI can use to shore up their position.

  45. 45.

    Cameron

    October 12, 2021 at 6:20 pm

    What, what?  We offered twenty years’ worth of Western blood and treasure to destroy their country  and these ungrateful wogs want their money back?

  46. 46.

    schrodingers_cat

    October 12, 2021 at 6:21 pm

    @Baud: The British are to blame here not us. They carved up the Pashtun/Pathan regions into Afghanistan and the NWFP (now a part of Pakistan).
    The Pathans were vehemently opposed to the joining Pakistan after British India was partitioned.

    Take any trouble spot in the world right and there is a high probability that the machinations of the British in the last two centuries is responsible partially or fully for the state of affairs.

    And unlike the Germans they have neither acknowledged nor said sorry for the death and destruction that the Crown was responsible for around the world

  47. 47.

    Geminid

    October 12, 2021 at 6:25 pm

    I was encouraged the other day when after a IS-K bombing killed 60 Hazara at a mosque, a Taliban spokesman denounced this attack on their “Shi’ite brethren.” The Taliban wouldn’t have said this when they were in power the first time. These are just words, but the Taliban may be taking into account the influence of their western Iranian neighbor. And they may genuinely want a united country that can rise out of poverty.

    I have nothing against sending aid to Afghanistan. We sent plenty the last 20 years through a government that we knew would steal much or most of it. While women may still be kept down in Afghanistan, this did not start with the Taliban, and is not unique to that country. Women were kept down in our country for much of it’s existence, and in many ways they still are. What progress women here have made was enabled by them, not foreign intervention.

  48. 48.

    gene108

    October 12, 2021 at 6:26 pm

    @dopey-o:

    My understanding was that the ISI groomed the Taliban to backstop Pakistan’s fight with India. I am sure that Adam could explain the actual history. But having a ready supply of mujahadeen and suicide bombers certainly strengthens Pakistan.

    Pakistan did setup the Taliban to provide more space to train terrorists to attack India.

    Regarding the Kargil War:

    early May 1999, the Pakistan Army decided to occupy the Kargil posts, numbering around 130, and thus control the area. Troops from the elite Special Services Group as well as four to seven battalions of the Northern Light Infantry (a paramilitary regiment not part of the regular Pakistani army at that time) backed by Kashmiri look guerrillas and Afghan mercenaries covertly and overtly set up bases on the vantage points of the Indian-controlled region.

    https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/k/Kargil_War.htm

    Religious fanatics with nuclear weapons on both sides portends trouble.

    The BJP is not a dictatorship nor has it turned India into sham democracy like Hungary, Turkey, or Russia.

    Some results from the by-election this past April, they didn’t do well.

    Jharkhand CM Hemant Soren’s JMM won the Madhupur assembly seat where a bypoll was conducted on April 17 of this year, securing a vote percentage of 48 per cent compared to the BJP’s 45.7 per cent.

    In Karnataka, the BJP won the Basavkalyan assembly bypoll while the Congress managed to win the Maski assembly bypoll. The BJP’s vote share in both the bye-elections was 43.2 per cent while that of the Congress was 46.6 per cent.

    Congress also managed to win the Damoh assembly bypoll in Madnya Pradesh with a vote share of 52.3 per cent. The BJP came second with 40.3 per cent.

    With a vote share of 48.2 per cent against 46.5 per cent of the NCP, the BJP won the Padharpur-Mangalvedha assembly bypoll in Maharashtra.

    SNIP

    Congress won the Sahada and Sujangarh bypolls while the BJP managed to win the Rajsamand assembly bye-election in Rajasthan. The Congress polled 51 per cent of the votes cast in the three assembly bypolls, followed by the BJP with 34.9 per cent.

    https://www.indiatoday.in/elections/story/election-results-2021-west-bengal-assam-puducherry-tamil-nadu-kerala-winning-candidate-list-bjp-tmc-ldf-congress-dmk-aiadmk-live-news-updates-1797919-2021-05-02

  49. 49.

    gene108

    October 12, 2021 at 6:29 pm

    I’m not sure what the G20 is going to do regarding the Afghan refugee crisis, since most externally displaced Afghans are in Iran and Pakistan, with some going from Iran to Turkey, with hopes of getting to an EU country.

    There are millions of displaced Afghans. The few thousand the US has taken in is a drop in the bucket regarding the scale of this catastrophe.

  50. 50.

    Betty

    October 12, 2021 at 6:29 pm

    @Fair Economist: We were helping a small group of Afghans get wealthy. The people not so much.

  51. 51.

    Ken

    October 12, 2021 at 6:31 pm

    @SpaceUnit:  I’m starting to think Afghanistan is a bad investment.

    But we’ve sunk so much into it, stopping now would mean we’d lose all of that…

  52. 52.

    Ksmiami

    October 12, 2021 at 6:31 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: if they allow ngos etc to distribute the money, it’s ok w me.

  53. 53.

    Betty

    October 12, 2021 at 6:32 pm

    @Baud: Someone on social media gets very upset about this. Apparently Afghan is correct for the people.

  54. 54.

    SpaceUnit

    October 12, 2021 at 6:35 pm

    @Ken:

    The wisdom of Kenny Rogers would seem to apply here.

  55. 55.

    schrodingers_cat

    October 12, 2021 at 6:37 pm

    @gene108: Elections are not the only gauge for a robust democracy.

    As for India Today, here is Rahul Kanwal,  skipping along with Anurag Thakur who instigated violence in last year’s pogrom against Muslims by saying

    देशके ग़द्दारोंको
    गोली मारो सालों को

    Which can be paraphrased:

    Shoot the traitors ( people protesting against the Citizenship Act)

    *Kanwal is an India Today Anchor

  56. 56.

    Anne Laurie

    October 12, 2021 at 6:39 pm

    @gene108: I’m not sure what the G20 is going to do regarding the Afghan refugee crisis, since most externally displaced Afghans are in Iran and Pakistan, with some going from Iran to Turkey, with hopes of getting to an EU country.

    That, IMO, is why the G20 was so eager to schedule today’s virtual meeting.  Now that literally millions of Afghans are trying to escape into Turkey (and the Balkans), and hundreds of thousands have made it far enough to try getting into the EU countries, suddenly it’s no longer ‘Eh, not our problem, let the Americans deal with it.’

    As far as I can tell, they still expect the Americans to take point — and we’ve earned that dubious honor — but the prospect of hearing from EU voters suddenly confronted with Afghan  refugees (i.e. ‘Taliban veterans’ as the various opposition parties will brand every Afghan male over the age of six) is concentrating the attention of various European leaders most forcefully.

  57. 57.

    Chetan Murthy

    October 12, 2021 at 6:40 pm

    @Ksmiami: hard agree.  just no sending it thru giving it to the Taliban.

  58. 58.

    gene108

    October 12, 2021 at 6:42 pm

    @Geminid:

    While women may still be kept down in Afghanistan, this did not start with the Taliban, and is not unique to that country.

    There’s almost no country developing economically where women’s rights are not improving.

    Saudi Arabia and some other Persian Gulf oil rich countries maybe an exception.

    Afghanistan does a lot of untapped mineral wealth, but like the Middle East 100 years ago, they lack the technology to exploit it. China and Russia are eagerly awaiting to start mining Afghanistan for all its worth.

    Women were kept down in our country for much of it’s existence, and in many ways they still are.

    It’s 2021, and there are some standards the world has agreed upon that girls/women should have, like access to education. Countries that can’t or don’t provide this are behind what the rest of the world considers where countries should be.

  59. 59.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    October 12, 2021 at 6:45 pm

    Foreign policy thread? Here’s food for thought from Foreign Policy:

    China Is a Declining Power—and That’s the Problem: The United States needs to prepare for a major war, not because its rival is rising but because of the opposite

    Basically, it argues that China is facing a similar trajectory that Imperial Japan in 1941 and the German Empire in 1914 faced: declining economies and formidable rivals who have resolved to oppose their rise. China has experienced a long rise and is facing a sharp decline, much like Imperial Japan and the German Empire. Both of those powers, fearing time was short, acted aggressively to secure whatever resources they could to stave off their declines. The article predicts that, given China’s increasing  aggression towards the ROC, that war could break out between China and the US

  60. 60.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 6:51 pm

    @Benw: The amount of wrong in that simple comment is amazing.  It would be hard to be more wrong.

  61. 61.

    gene108

    October 12, 2021 at 6:55 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    BJP will be here to stay. They just do not necessarily have to remain in power. They still lose elections.

    When the BJP gets mentioned here too many think India’s gone the way of Turkey or Russia, with regards to its democracy.

    I just wanted to point out to the commentariat that despite being right-wing, they have not strangled Indian democracy dead like other countries right-wing leaders have done.

  62. 62.

    delk

    October 12, 2021 at 6:55 pm

    Not just a withdrawal, but a chaotic withdrawal.

  63. 63.

    raven

    October 12, 2021 at 6:57 pm

    @delk: It took a year to get the last two Americans killed in Vietnam out and we had years to plan for it.

  64. 64.

    Cameron

    October 12, 2021 at 7:00 pm

    @delk: That’s how you can tell. If a Republican is president, it’s a strategic withdrawal; for a Democratic one, it’s chaotic.

  65. 65.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    October 12, 2021 at 7:00 pm

    @raven:

    And that happened under a Republican president. And yet Republicans are the national security Big Daddy Party just because Raygun told Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin Wall. Dude was simply in the right place at the right time

  66. 66.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 7:00 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Controversy!

  67. 67.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 7:02 pm

    @Baud: It’s apparently what I am here for.

  68. 68.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    October 12, 2021 at 7:02 pm

    @delk:

    They’ve got their narrative and they’re sticking to it. I feel like it’s been internalized in a lot of people at this point that Biden “bungled” Afghanistan; that it was a good thing for the US to withdraw but he botched the execution

  69. 69.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 7:04 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I meant the game.

  70. 70.

    raven

    October 12, 2021 at 7:06 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): It’s too soon to tell

     

     

    In the bitter cold of December 1950, a convoy of 3,200 U.S. Army troops came under withering fire from tens of thousands of Chinese infantrymen massed in the hills east of Chosin Reservoir in North Korea.

    Twelve hours later, about 1,500 Americans from the 7th Infantry Division were dead, more than 1,000 were wounded and most of the convoy’s 40 vehicles were charred hulks or in flames. The attack was the brutal conclusion of four days of assaults by the Chinese, and when it was over, only soldiers strong enough to stagger six miles to a U.S. Marine encampment escaped capture.

    For years, the units involved have been accused of incompetence, malingering, even cowardice. But now, at the 50th anniversary of the outbreak of the Korean War, the military has taken a new look at the battle and officially affirmed the contribution of what came to be called Task Force Faith.

    In a ceremony this month, survivors were decorated with a Presidential Unit Citation acknowledging that, even though the Army units were ill-prepared and poorly trained, without their resistance the Chinese likely would have swept south and achieved their larger goal of destroying a Marine force of 17,000.

  71. 71.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 7:13 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): 

    Are Japan and Germany considered shithole countries now?

  72. 72.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 7:14 pm

    @raven: You already know this, but for those who don’t….  A Presidential Unit Citation is the equivalent of giving the unit the second highest heroism award after the MoH.

  73. 73.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    October 12, 2021 at 7:18 pm

    @Baud:

    I don’t follow?

  74. 74.

    VeniceRiley

    October 12, 2021 at 7:19 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: My dad has one of those.

  75. 75.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 7:21 pm

    @VeniceRiley: Whatever unit he served with was in some shit.

  76. 76.

    VeniceRiley

    October 12, 2021 at 7:21 pm

    @raven: Glad this is being done! How awful they had to wait this long.

  77. 77.

    VeniceRiley

    October 12, 2021 at 7:22 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:  Deep doo doo yes.

  78. 78.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 7:22 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    I don’t think of those two countries as “declining.”

  79. 79.

    Raven

    October 12, 2021 at 7:23 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I don’t think the MOH can be a unit award can it?

  80. 80.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 7:24 pm

    Rowdy!!!!

  81. 81.

    schrodingers_cat

    October 12, 2021 at 7:24 pm

    @gene108: I agree that they are not going away.  RSS has been with us since the 1930s. And the reactionary, orthodox elements have been with us since millennia.

    Indian media has become a sad joke and so have many other institutions. Elections being held regularly is good but not enough.

    India is huge and diverse. Hindi and Hindutva has been tough sell in places that have strong regional cultures and languages. But until the BJP has the Hindi heartland they are going to continue being dangerous. It is also not a given that Modi’s cult of personality is easily transferable to his heir apparent Ajay Bisht.

    So yes I agree with you that the Indian situation is more complex than say Hungary

  82. 82.

    Baud

    October 12, 2021 at 7:25 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Thank you.

  83. 83.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 7:28 pm

    @Raven: ​
      No, so the Presidential is the highest unit award. It is considered equivalent to the Distinguished Service Cross/Navy Cross/etc., though. The Valorous Unit one is a Silver Star equivalent. Off the top of my head, I don’t know the other matches.

  84. 84.

    Geminid

    October 12, 2021 at 7:31 pm

    @gene108: I am not justifying what the Taliban does to Afghan women, just putting it in context. Afghanistan has been at the low end of the spectrum  of empowerment of women for centuries. But this is a spectrum, and countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia are not that far ahead. And many countries that have gender equality de jure do not have gender equality de facto. I think Japan would be an example of this, among many.

    I am all for using whatever carrots and sticks that will help Afghan women advance. The fact that the Taliban at least in principal allows the education of women is promising. There are ways we and the rest of the liberal West can encourage this. Hopefully it will not take as long for women to achieve equal rights there as it took woman and Black people and LGBTQ people to achieve them here.

  85. 85.

    Raven

    October 12, 2021 at 7:31 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Her dad and my dad were on the same OP. Rock Force! Possibly on the same LCPR.

  86. 86.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 7:32 pm

    @Geminid: And many countries that have gender equality de jure do not have gender equality de facto. I think Japan would be an example of this, among many.

    So are we.

  87. 87.

    Dan B

    October 12, 2021 at 7:35 pm

    @Baud: Yemen, uighurs, Russia, etc.  I feel for them all.  Brasil seems headed for trouble but closer to Florida level trouble.  Afghanistan seems like it was hanging onto some hope but is staring at an abyss of unknown depth.

  88. 88.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    October 12, 2021 at 7:36 pm

    @Baud:

    Oh. No, I was saying that Imperial Japan and the German Empire were, in 1941 and 1914, respectively. Japan went fascist because it’s economy took a dive in the 1920s. Prior to the 1930s, Japan was an increasingly liberal democracy that worked in partnership with the US, the British Empire, and other powers to establish an Asian security framework. It responded to it’s economic decline with totalitarianism at home and expansionism abroad to capture resources and markets. These moves alienated other powers, who responded with military buildups of their own. Fearing their rivals, Japan struck first, seizing the Dutch East Indies, the Philippines, several US owned islands, and of course attempted to destroy the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese government felt they had no other alternative; they couldn’t face a slow, humiliating decline with unrest at home and they feared their rising power was going to be curtailed by enemies. The same story goes for Imperial Germany.

    The article I linked to observes and proves pretty well imo that China is another such case; that the Xi Jinping regime is destroying the dynamism that characterized the PRC from the 1970s to the 2000s, becoming more rigid and inflexible. Growth has also slowed tremendously in the last 10 years, several countries are pulling out of it’s vaunted Belt and Road initiative, and entrepreneurship is being killed there while zombie state enterprises are being propped up by the central government

  89. 89.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 7:37 pm

    @Raven: ​
      All that weird Pacific stuff, huh? Of my grandfather and his brothers, the oldest was a guard at the Tomb, my grandfather was in Europe, the next was in Europe, and the fourth was a Marine with airborne wings who was in the Pacific. The youngest served in Panama during Korea.

  90. 90.

    Steeplejack

    October 12, 2021 at 7:37 pm

    @Baud:

    They certainly went through shithole phases after their imperial misadventures.

  91. 91.

    Another Scott

    October 12, 2021 at 7:38 pm

    @Geminid: I think this is the right approach.

    So far, the Taliban has generally been reasonable in their post-war dealings with the US and the West. It’s in the western-world’s interests for Afghanistan not to turn into a basket case, and it’s our interest to find ways to help countries that have been at war for far too long (peace creates new markets, and much more).

    If we can show that we’re honest brokers, not imperialists bent on impoverishing them or stealing their resources, then it will help us to deal with many, many other suffering places (Yemen, Lebanon, Iran, Sudan/South Sudan, DRC, Nigeria, Venezuela, etc., etc.).

    The US and the UN and NGOs have lots and lots of experience and infrastructure for delivering aid.  They should have mechanisms for doing so in a way that encourages the recipients not to steal it, etc.  We should go with those usual mechanisms and make it clear that this is a test for the Taliban.  Distribute it fairly and well, and more will be coming.  Don’t, well…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  92. 92.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 7:39 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): ​
      You aren’t wrong, but things were a lot more complicated than that.

  93. 93.

    Geminid

    October 12, 2021 at 7:39 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think you are right. I also think that it will be several generations before people will be able to see how strong and pervasive a force patriarchy was, and how much it held back the human race. And I’m being optimistic here.

  94. 94.

    Chetan Murthy

    October 12, 2021 at 7:45 pm

    @Geminid: The other countries you name that are shitty on women’s rights are not countries we fund to the tune of billions a year.  Sure, we’re *allies* with KSA, but that’s b/c they sit on oil and rich interests have an interest in that (and KSA’s money).

    We tried subsidizing Pakistan, and look where it got us.  We should ensure that every dollar, every damn dollar, is used to empower women, by whatever means necessary.  B/c otherwise, we’re participating in their oppression.

    There are no clean choices here, and yeah, I know that if we withhold money to extract concessions, women and children will die.  If we give money, women and children will die, too.

    The bastards have taken hostages, and we should negotiate with hostage-takers.

    Last: to those who think that we owe something to AFG for the war: they could have given up Bin Laden.  They didn’t.  And yeah, that was the Taliban, not the people of AFG.  Lots of polls show that the “people of AFG” support the Taliban, and not us.  And did so back then, too.

  95. 95.

    Raven

    October 12, 2021 at 7:52 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yea , Corregidor was basically at the same time as Iwo Jima and not nearly as big but it was quite an operation with a combined parachute and beach landing, Intel said there were about 600 Japanese on the island and it turned out there were 6700 and 50 survivors.

  96. 96.

    Geminid

    October 12, 2021 at 7:53 pm

    @Chetan Murthy:I don’t think we owe the Afghans. And I don’t think they owe us either. The money we spent there did not benefit the people. But I still think it is in our interest to join with other wealthy countries to help them, even if the Taliban rules the country.

  97. 97.

    Kalakal

    October 12, 2021 at 8:25 pm

    @Ohio Mom: I still have problems with The Lebanon, maybe I should stop wearing a pith helmet

  98. 98.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 8:34 pm

    @Kalakal: The extra sun exposure won’t really help.

  99. 99.

    Kalakal

    October 12, 2021 at 8:53 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): It’s a good argument about Germany. Imperial Germany had fully inherited the adage that “Prussia is an army with a country attached”. As a society it was ridiculously militarised “The lowest ranking officer and social precedence over the highest civilian” , add to that a General staff so paranoid that if the German Empire had covered the entire world except Tristan da Cunha they’d still have believed they under threat, after all travel far enough in any direction and the menacing bulk of Tristan da Cunha would loom up. Throw in Mackinder’s Heartland theory, a very well funded pro colonial campaign claiming that poor little Germany was being excluded from the spoils of empire  and the place was just itching to get its retaliation in first

  100. 100.

    Cameron

    October 12, 2021 at 9:08 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: True, they could have given up bin Laden.  But I s’pose that wasn’t in the cards.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/10/15/bush-rejects-taliban-offer-on-bin-laden/bc0ec919-082b-40e6-91ca-55e5ca34a70a/

  101. 101.

    Benw

    October 12, 2021 at 9:18 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: thanks?

  102. 102.

    Sam

    October 12, 2021 at 9:19 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Pakistan is the scariest country in the world.  Addicted to terrorism, with military and intel satraps pulling all the strings and seething masses of impoverished peasants.  Oh yeah, and nukes coming off the assembly lines like clockwork.  Something will blow, and not in the distant future.

  103. 103.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 9:24 pm

    @Benw: Congrats on the win.

  104. 104.

    Kalakal

    October 12, 2021 at 9:29 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I blame the quinine tablets

  105. 105.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 12, 2021 at 9:38 pm

    @Kalakal: ​
      Try them with gin.

  106. 106.

    Kalakal

    October 12, 2021 at 9:41 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: That worked great except I’ve gone deaf

  107. 107.

    Benw

    October 12, 2021 at 9:41 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: thanks. As a Braves fan I know how it feels to have an elite pitching team get eliminated in a bunch of low scoring games.

  108. 108.

    Mart

    October 12, 2021 at 10:00 pm

    @delk: Chaotic withdrawal drives me nuts. Swift, agreed to, historic, largely peaceful, etc. are words too. Once they got up to speed it was hardly chaotic. Fair to say marred by an Isis affiliated suicide bomber.

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