In the morning thread, there was some discussion about finding safety levels that work for us as individuals during a pandemic that is seemingly unending. I follow the CDC guidelines, recognizing that the CDC is not infallible but trusting that during a Democratic administration, they probably aren’t manipulating and/or hiding data for political gain. I don’t trust my state government on that, and the top story in the current Tampa Bay Times tells me I’m right not to:
For 105 days this summer, while COVID-19 deaths soared across the state, Floridians had no idea how many of their neighbors were dying.
The Florida Department of Health knows how many people are dying in each county, but stopped telling the public on June 4. That’s when state officials stopped releasing daily pandemic data, switched to weekly reports and started withholding data once available to the public…
This occurred right around when Florida became the epicenter of the delta variant outbreak, and it was 100% to shield Governor Ron DeSantis from the political consequences of his catastrophic decision to politicize the pandemic to pander to the Trumpist kooks. The governor’s press secretary, Christina Pushaw, is a Dollar Store-brand Kellyanne Conway who puts out statements that would make Kim Jong-un’s state-appointed flatterers cringe with vicarious shame. She announced the data stoppage on June 3:
“COVID-19 cases have significantly decreased over the past year as we have a less than 5 percent positivity rate, and our state is returning to normal, with vaccines widely available throughout Florida.”
The delta variant hit the state hard, with the pandemic ultimately killing 1 of every 400 Floridians who were alive in March of 2020, with many more dying this year even though vaccines were widely available and free to recipients.* It’s entirely possible more people failed to protect themselves in hard-hit counties because Florida hid data to create a false sense of security.
The COVID dashboards at the county level went dark in June, so it wasn’t possible to track local positivity rates. Common sense told my husband and me that the redder the county, the greater the risk of infection, so after a joyous but brief interlude of mask-free normal, we followed the CDC recommendation to mask up indoors again and chose to hunker down as much as possible this summer to ride out delta. The Tampa Bay Times report says that was the right move:
The data reveals how deadly the latest COVID wave has been in two of the region’s smallest, most rural counties: Citrus and Hernando rank third and fourth in deaths per 100,000 residents since June 5.
It will be impossible to total up a butcher’s bill with 100% accuracy, but the high hospitalization and death toll in states with Trumpy Republican governors like Florida as compared to states like California is obviously due to Republicans politicizing mitigation measures, including masks. I wish I were confident they will pay a political price for their monstrous indifference to public health, but I’m not.
Anyhoo, the delta variant is declining fast here, so it’ll be time to seek a new comfort level soon. I’ll keep following the CDC guidelines on masks but may feel safer in crowds outdoors in the weeks ahead. There are a lot of trade-offs to think about. I expect comfort zones will be different for everyone.
*Edited for accuracy because my stats were off.
If only some people’s comfort zone didn’t include exhaling the virus all over the rest of us.
We have mostly in-person (college) classes, and everyone has to wear a mask while indoors (this is San Diego). All students and staff have to show proof of vaccination to come to campus.
Apart from that, I wear a mask while shopping indoors. We had an outdoor craft festival thing recently and I did not wear a mask while outside.
Still in shock about Colin Powell’s death from COVID-19 complications. I didn’t realize he had blood cancer, which left him at higher risk in spite of being vaccinated.
I don’t know why voters reward sociopaths in politics but I hope that this changes soon. It is frightening to me that so many vaccinated Republican politicians have encouraged their followers to remain unvaccinated and unmasked.
Seems clear that R political leaders have moved quite directly to promoting death-by-COVID and concealing their actions. They’re getting away with it because this is what the core Trumpist voter wants.
I’m still loving this clip of a homeless man’s rejoinder to a clueless anti-vaxxer: https://twitter.com/filmthepolicela/status/1445566038855217158?s=21
What the Democratic Party offers: measurable improvements to life and liberty
What the Republican Party offers: cronyism, warmed over culture wars, and death.
this is all you need in terms of messaging.
No mask walking the 3 blocks to the outdoor Farmer’s Market, where one can distance.
Masks shopping everywhere else. And everyone else is masked as well. In Upstate NY, most of the GOP is vaccinated. The further one is distanced from NYC, the more that is not true, one imagines.
My vaccinated sister got a breakthrough case from traveling. Airports, planes, who knows where. Despite being masked. She was sick for 2 weeks. Nothing severe, but wiped out.
We had a Trumpster family refuse a quarantine at the school this morning. It didn’t work- the school tried to work with them on “distance learning” but they went insane and insisted the child was attending in person, which is not allowed, so hopefully cooler heads prevail and they can get her online in a few days. The sheriff was out there. It’s the first uproar we’ve had, which surprised me- it’s a 65% Trump county but we haven’t had the Right wing activist nonsense in schools that other places have had, maybe because probably half the school staff are Republicans and all but one of the school board are also Republicans.
I wish there would be some acknowlegement in media that Republican areas of the country have Republican teachers and school board members. It’s just not accurate to continue to portray public schools as “liberal”. Public schools reflect the communities where they are located. I mean, Jesus. Duh.
A few weeks ago I was in Montreal visiting the kiddo, and had to get Quebec’s VaxiCode app if I wanted to go to the grocery, a restaurant, a museum, a bar—pretty much anywhere public-facing. It’s basically a giant QR code that’s scanned when you enter any establishment.
Talk about your comfort zones! It was awesome to be able to go out to dinner and be reasonably sure I wasn’t going to get coivd-sprayed by some disgusting, disease-carrying anti-vaccine lunatic. No VaxiCode, no entry. If you don’t have your pass, go pound sand. It’s simply wonderful. We should have the same precautions more widely here, as opposed to individual states like NY, but of course we won’t because freedumb.
In my opinion, the unvaccinated should be completely excluded from the kind of public activities we all used to take for granted. Let THEM keep HelloFresh and DoorDash afloat. The rest of us can safely go out for a nice meal, a few drinks, and a show—maybe tell them all about what they’re missing out on.
The Moar You Know
I don’t have a comfort level, but I can’t keep sitting at home or at work anymore. All I do is my job and that is nowhere near enough for me to call this “a good life”.
At any rate, going to restart band practice at the end of this month and start gigging in January. Which I am very uncomfortable with. But what the fuck are you supposed to do, sit and just work until you die?
@Kay: Happy to hear that it is a rare event in your area. The media keep failing the public in so many ways. It’s depressing.
I’m really not sure at this point if I’m still being cautious because I’m smart, or if a year and a half of living like this has transformed me into a paranoid hermit. I don’t wear a mask outside unless there are a lot of people in a congested area (doesn’t happen too much here in Southern California), but I wear a mask inside stores and other public places all the time.
One of the organizations for which I serve as an arbitrator announced a strict vaccination requirement for its in-person hearings, which is very reassuring. I have learned that one arbitrator has been removed from the panel due to his refusal to be vaccinated.
The Moar You Know
@Felanius Kootea: Powell had multiple myeloma. He would have had no COVID antibodies at all, in spite of being vaccinated, or for that matter antibodies to anything else.
Plus chemo on top.
A classic case study of why everyone else needs to be vaccinated. Because his vaccination wasn’t going to do fuck-all for him. And then somebody walked in his room with a little bit of an infection that they probably never even got symptoms from, and he died.
@brendancalling: If I can wave my iPhone at a pile of apples at the Farmer’s Market to pay for them, we can certainly have a universal Vaxx app. Its pure nonsense politics keeping us from it.
Its just unfortunate that the Delta strain wasn’t more efficient at culling the Trumper herds.
Masked indoors at work (rules), unmasked outdoors and in stores. Don’t eat out much.
Just got back from 12 days vacation in UT. Flew PHL-SLC – masked in airports and on flights. Unmasked rest of the time – other travel, restaurants, hikes, lodges, motels etc.
The Moar You Know
As far as I’m concerned, this is just the Onion reporting on something that we all know will happen in the near-term future.
@The Moar You Know: I’m dying to play some gigs again. It’s brutal—I see all my friends who live back in Nashville playing shows and touring, and I want to be back out SO bad.
I’m not staying in Vermont much longer, covid be damned.
It’s either what they want, or they’re dead and can’t protest.
Oh, btw, the anti-vaccine folks have come up with a NEW quack cure for covid—they’re drinking pee-pee.
As a buddy of mine quipped “I guess we are rapidly approaching real life “eat shit and die” levels of insanity?”
CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP
I want this for the USA
@The Moar You Know: I read an article recently by a musician who extolled the benefits of rapid covid testing. He was vaccinated and had resumed playing live gigs and then tested positive. But at least that gave him notice so that he could cancel before unwittingly passing it on to someone else. Not the ideal solution, but maybe works to provide an extra layer of protection or peace of mind.
I really miss live music. I went to a concert last month – masks required but not proof of vaccination. Since I don’t yet qualify for a Pfizer booster and I’m approaching the 6-month mark, I’m not sure about attending any more live concerts unless proof of vaccination is required and the number of local cases goes down.
@brendancalling: In all caps, even.
I feel owned.
I just spent a long weekend in Vegas with some friends. The trip was originally planned for early March 2020, cancelled, rescheduled for this October back in June when things were looking good, and after Delta hit we all kept an eye on things and decided we were okay with going.
I knew Nevada had mask requirements indoors because it’s run by Democrats (I wouldn’t have gone otherwise), but I was still pleasantly surprised with how seriously they took it. Mask requirements posted everywhere, including a lot of over-the-nose reminders (we’ve learned something in the past year), and there were staff at casino entrances checking and giving out masks to anyone without one. Past that, I didn’t see anyone without a mask, and very few wearing them improperly. Obviously I would have been happier with vaccine requirements, but it was within my comfort zone. Restaurants were more unmasked, but you had to be masked to get in and people were pretty good at putting on masks when they weren’t at their tables.
United continued to be solid on masks (I had taken one other trip with them in August.) Announcements and safety instructions specified that you could take off your mask to eat or drink, but you had to put it on between sips/bites. They weren’t super-strict about it; everyone understood it to mean “okay, assholes, you don’t get to set down a snack or drink in front of you and keep your mask off the whole time because ‘you’re eating.'” I kept my N95 on the whole time in airports and as much as possible on the planes.
At home, I’m still masking in any public indoor space, and not expanding the set of people I’m socializing with in person. Luckily, I haven’t had anyone in the circle of people I have contact with or care about resist getting vaccinated.
Some anecdata from Italy, we flew from Brindisi to Pisa to spend 5 days in Firenze, visiting friends, museums, classical music, restaurants and some superb retail therapy. Our first trip out of our provincia in over a year. Everyone green pass (vaxxed) and masked to fly, all masked indoors, green pass to enter museums and concert hall, masked in stores, including Mercato San Lorenzo. We did take off our masks to eat in restaurants, all indoors, and to enjoy coffee and drinks outdoors. No mask mandate in the fresh air. It all felt safe, and almost a new “normal”. Now that Italy has mandated vaccination for all employees of any kind, and rolling out boosters, we hope our cabin fever days are over.
The sheriff’s dept took it seriously. They’re across the street and they were prepping in their parking lot. Dogs, the whole works. Maybe there was a threat. I just hope they didn’t embarrass the kid. They’re pretty good about keeping them out of the fray. No lights and sirens so someone wanted to lower the temperature, which is wise. I think that just feeds into their sense of persecution. The police presence would probably be enough. They can be arrested for disorderly.
The Moar You Know
@Eljai: CVS, at least in California, is just giving boosters to anyone who asks and has their previous vaccine card, no qualifying conditions required or asked about. I got mine two weeks ago and I’m neither senior or frontline worker, although when I pick up gigs again I suppose in a sense I will be.
At work staff are masked (rules) but the public aren’t – thanks DeSantis. Way outside my comfort zone.
@brendancalling: but is it Russian hooker pee?
Asking for a fascist…
@Eljai: Rapid, accurate tests would be so helpful, and it’s a scandal that a year and a half into this thing, they still aren’t widely available. I know Biden addressed that a few weeks ago, saying they’re ramping up production and will soon be available nationwide. I sure hope so. It could be a game-changer for lots of folks. I especially feel sorry for parents of young children.
I realize this is O/T but I’m curious if anyone watched the Anderson Cooper interview of Robert Gates last evening on 60 Minutes. I’ve always had mixed feelings about Gates partly because he puts himself out there as a neutral and independent observer of Washington DC and has credibility with the formerly sane wing of the GOP. He weighed in pretty heavily. mostly negatively, on Biden’s foreign policy positions over the last decades which I am sure will please people like my gutless Congressperson, he who wholly supports a balanced budget amendment.
But at interview’s end, he voices some of the same concerns about the fragility of the current state of our democracy and says that he’s never seen such hate through the land and how awfully polarized the country is. I know that he’s a lifelong committed Republican and supporter of a strong military, but, just once,why can’t he come out and say from what side of the polarized country the hate is emanating? I don’t see hate coming from our side. Only from his. It just might save the country if people like him got a tiny bit more precise with the finger pointing.
The right-wing activist nonsense is absolutely all about attacking Democrats. There may be people showing to scream who don’t know that, but these things are not spontaneous actions of local outrage, they’re being goosed by national conservative organizations, and in may cases directly organized by them. So it’s no surprise they aren’t happening in Republican areas.
If no one is showing up to scream at school boards that aren’t “liberal,” then it must be sincere outrage at the “liberal” stuff, right? Anyway, what isn’t happening can’t be “news”. Grrr…
One can hope.
@brendancalling: Quebec’s vaccine pass isn’t required in grocery stores. It’s only where nonessential goods are sold.
The Moar You Know
@brendancalling: I feel you. I’ve been at home or the office, nothing else, for a year and a half and I’m fucking done with it.
@matt: I think you’re right about that, actually. Now that I think of it, they didn’t ask to scan when I hit the grocery. Everyone was masked up though.
My observation is that stats at the county level paint a picture vastly different than state tends.
Here in rural Hood River and Wasco counties, case rates are mostly unchanged from peak summer.
Oregon State trends show declines, while here we are still at peak levels.
Blue areas account for average decline. Red areas remain an issue.
@Baud: So very very very very owned. They sure showed me, what with their, um, drinking piss.
@The Moar You Know: Also, I checked the CDC guidelines recently, and as with the initial vaccines, the definition of “elevated risk” conditions includes being “overweight” with an absurdly low threshold. That’s what will get me a booster as soon as I hit six months. (In the initial vaccine rollout, it was almost a mantra among my group of friends, “BMI is a meaningless crap measurement, but I’ll still take it.”)
I’ve actually had COVID, which increases my comfort levels a bit because I have even more immunity than other double-vaxed folks. I’ve got my plan set and am pretty comfortable with it:
I can live happily like this, indefinitely, which is good, because it’s looking like I’ll have to.
@The Moar You Know: Thanks for the tip about CVS!
I will echo a sentiment I have often read in comments here — I thought I was being appropriately cynical about the long term means and goals of the Republican party, but like many others, I am aghast that Republicans would murder so many Americans by means of a horrible, strangling death for political gain. In the words of Lily Tomlin — I try to be cynical, but I can’t keep up.
Also, for those who vote for candidates who espouse a heartless “tough guy” foreign policy, that heartlessness doesn’t stop at the border. They will let you die just as easily as some guest at a wedding in Afghanistan.
My brother is an anti-vaxxer who listens to meatheads like Joe Rogan. He and his two teenagers are unvaxxed, though my niece confided to my sister that she’d get the vaccination if it were her choice. They all had COVID during the spring-summer 2020 outbreak, and no one got really sick — it was basically like a cold.
Anyway, they live nearby, but we hardly ever see them because of this. My husband and I just aren’t going to risk it since we do errands and chores for some elderly relatives and don’t want to unwittingly pass the virus to them. But today, my nephew was sick at school, and my brother couldn’t pick him up because something was going on at work, so I agreed to do it.
I think the kid just didn’t feel like being at school. He said he has a headache. No respiratory symptoms. But now that I’ve been in a confined space with him, even masked, I feel like I have to reset my possible infection clock even though I’m fully vaxxed. It’s so goddamned irritating, and all because my brother is an obstinate mule. If our mom were still around, she’d kick his ass.
Oh for the sake of fucks!
The Moar You Know
@dww44: but he does. That it is made up bullshit lies promulgated by social media and Fox will never occur to him, because all his sources agree – Dems are the haters and dividers here.
How you fix Fox is easy. Social media is another issue entirely. I’m really beginning to think that how North Korea has dealt with the internet in general is the only way to truly fix that problem, because in responding to the threat it would pose to the ruling family by essentially banning it, they inadvertently saved their society from the destabilization and destruction social media is unleashing on the world. You can’t separate the two. The internet is, by definition and function, social media. Facebook, Twitter and the like just make it easier to use.
Major Major Major Major
I’m following CDC guidelines by not hanging out with unvaccinated people. That’s about it. (Kind of the only guidelines right now anyway?) Tuned out the re-restrictions they did after they realized that gay orgies can spread COVID among the vaccinated since duh.
When I was in oakland a month or so ago they were checking vaccine cards to sell you ice cream from a stand, which seemed excessive. Dunno if that was just the workers at Humphrey’s being dipshits. I’m glad we have sensible regulations in NYC—heavy on vaccine mandates and light on masks in mandated areas.
@La Nonna: Ooh, that sounds wonderful! I visited Italy once and just loved it. Hope to go again sometime. I’d be perfectly content with those rules.
Mike in NC
Our friends in Tampa were supposed to come here for Thanksgiving, but since the Gunshine State is such a clusterfuck under Governor DeathSentence, they changed their minds because they know so many unvaccinated people will be traveling for the holidays. Thanks, Ron!
@Jim Appleton: Here in Virginia, blue areas are doing well, but red is a mixed bag — some of them are also doing quite well. All of the worst areas are red, though.
I have an appointment with a new infectious disease doctor tomorrow. I hated my old one. I gave her three years but I have had enough. I guess I’ll find out about getting a booster shot.
The new doctors office is in the same building as my orthopedic surgeon. The good news is that the orthopedic practice has a walk-in clinic. No appointment necessary so I’m going to have my back and hip checked out while I’m there.
James E Powell
The voters who reward sociopaths are themselves sociopaths. I do not see any changes coming soon, so we will have to continue to work hard to make sure that we outnumber them each and every election.
I don’t see any other way.
@Betty Cracker: I would have refused to pick the kid up. In a similar situation, I’d have told my brother that if he wants me to help with things like that, they have to be responsible and be vaxxed first.
@Major Major Major Major:
Right now (and perhaps indefinitely) getting people vaxxed is the most important tool and that means making life as inconvenient as possible for the unvaxxed. So, totally appropriate. It’s not like 5 seconds flashing your phone or your card is a meaningful inconvenience.
@Jim Appleton: That’s exactly right, which is why it was so unconscionable for the Florida governor to withhold county data. The cities that defied his stupid anti-masks/anti-vax card mandates are the only thing keeping that asshole afloat. He must know that, but he is perfectly willing for people to die needlessly so he can strut around crowing about the “free state of Florida.” I’m not the nicest person on earth, but I can’t fathom that level of sociopathy.
@The Moar You Know: Yup.
And I bet he’s even more sure he doesn’t need to be vaccinated since then because he has much better “natural immunity”, even though there’s now copious evidence that’s not true…
@Fair Economist: I thought about it, but I felt sorry for the poor kid sitting around in the school clinic with no one else to pick him up. It’s not his fault his father is an idiot on this subject.
@Redshift: You are correct.
State with the highest COVID death rate per capita in the last six months?
Dem politicians (especially those running against crazy-a$$ anti-mask anti-vaccine and anti-mandate GQP pols) should ask ’em if they’re so keen on AUDITS, how about we AUDIT the Covid death data in their states? Audit the numbers, audit how the reporting was suppressed, audit how things like daily/weekly/monthly reporting changed and why, all of it.
You want AUDITS? Ok, Republicans, let’s do some audits.
They would go out whenever an adult wouldn’t leave the school, which is what happened. It baffled me where these people got the idea they could behave any way they want in a school because it’s “public”.
That is not now and has NEVER been true. Schools are areas that get attenuated protections, not less protection. It really is just privilege and a sense of entitlement. OF COURSE they respond to a threat at a school. This is news to Trumpsters? Have they had their heads up their asses the last 30 years? They’re all terrified of violence at schools, understandably.
@Mike in NC: My daughter and SIL paid air fare for Thanksgiving and Christmas so I’ll be flying to Tampa twice (gulp).
Since it’s an open thread, I’ll mention another report from my pet Canadian wingnut who I monitor on Twitter but don’t respond to — he posted a wingnut site re-posting of an article claiming a deputy treasury secretary said the supply chain issues will continue until everyone is vaccinated, and declaring that this was “blackmailing” unvaxxed people. (That’s not what blackmail is, but that’s the least of the stupidity.) My pet wingnut’s comment on it was “they just have to have a scapegoat!”
The quote seemed more than a bit off to me, especially since the snippet of the article didn’t show the source. I googled it, and the only place it appears are in an article from RT (which doesn’t even mention the name of this supposed official) and wingnut sites reposting it.
I almost feel sorry for the old masters of Russian propaganda having to see this — the new generation don’t even need the skill to create something remotely plausible, they can just slap together any crap that tells the wingnuts what they want to hear, and it’s off to the useful-idiot races!
Mrs. School is upset because last Christmas, we were the only family who didn’t join the rest for Christmas. This year, she has two siblings (and their families) that refuse to get vaccinated. She’s furious that they are being selfish and going to cause her to miss a second Christmas with her family.
I am back to yoga, working out at the Y, and the art studio. Yoga has a HEPA filter and I wear a mask. Art studio has a masking policy. YMCA is the only place I don’t wear one, because I’m doing cardio. But the space is a gigantic double-height space, like a Costco, and I go when there are very few people and there is tons of space. I was really, really having a hard time. I have to do some stuff to stay sane.
Spawn the Younger is doing piano and soccer. Piano is masked, with vaxxed instructor. Soccer is outdoors.
Spawn the Youngest is not doing very much. She wears a mask on the very rare occasions we take her somewhere.
Major Major Major Major
@Fair Economist: This is an ice cream stand, carding there is about as effective at controlling COVID as having somebody walk around a park checking vaccination status. Would you support that too in the interests of inconvenience or where’s the line?
@guachi: That reminds me that Politico told us in March that DeSantis won the pandemic. I guess being 1st in covid deaths is an achievement of sorts, but I certainly wouldn’t call it winning.
@dww44: I couldn’t believe that with everything going on in the world today, with its valuable time slot, with three pieces to run, they ran one on Gates, one on an English pub, and one on a fucking cattle drive.
Nothing about strikes going on all over the US and world, and workers demanding better pay/conditions.
Nothing about supply chains, to promote better understanding of why some have gotten iffy.
Nothing about extreme gerrymandering.
Nothing about how absolutely fucking insane it is that Fox News hosts are vaccinated, yet continue to promote anti-vax nonsense night after night.
Nothing about Joe Manchin’s obstruction for the sake of a few thousand jobs in WV (when there are tens of thousands of green jobs to be had)
And on and on and on. Instead, we got an English pub and a cattle drive for 2/3 of the show.
Bookending Our Dry Year.
So, drought over? 0.01 inch is infinitely more than zero.
The problem is that the safety level shouldn’t be determined by people’s personal comfort zone any more than highway speed should be determined by people’s personal comfort zone. Republicans have been trying, with fair success, to define our response to the pandemic in terms of personal comfort rather than public safety. I don’t care that you personally feel safe without a mask or a vaccine, because the function of those things isn’t just to protect you. It’s to protect the people around you. You shouldn’t be able to opt out of that because you’re callous about the lives of everyone around you.
@The Moar You Know:
Dying for live music, although not literally – pining away for lack of it describes it better. Larkin Poe playing a local venue next month and I’m debating.
Oh, I’m glad. Depends on the kid but some of them really suffered without contact. My youngest was just..diminished. He lost all his spark. He’s back, though! But he had a lousy last year in high school. His 4th guarantine he came home and said “I give up” :)
Our counselors were swamped so I put him in online counseling. I don’t know that it helped but it made me feel like I was doing something. He did “get better” but that might have been just leaving for college.
@Betty Cracker: The rapid antigen tests have been hard to find in stores, but I just ordered three two-packs from cvs.com and actually got them after a few days. They’ll probably come in handy soon. But they shouldn’t be a scarce resource like this.
I have tickets to see Bad Religion on 11/9. The venue requires vaccination and it is outdoor. I am planning to go.
@Major Major Major Major:
Sure! Maybe once or twice a week I’d have to spend a couple seconds flashing the QR code saved on my phone. In return, antivaxxers would basically be forced to stay home 24/7 since there would be *nothing* for them to do in public. That would cut down substantially on transmission, and in addition most would give in at that point and get vaxxed. If that had been the policy in the summer it would already have saved about 100,000 America lives. That is *well* worth having to flash my phone now and again.
I’m really not sure at this point if I’m still being cautious because I’m smart, or if a year and a half of living like this has transformed me into a paranoid hermit.
Being paranoid beyond reason is a real issue. I know a couple who are being more cautious than they would be (or than guidelines suggest) because their adult daughter – who does not live with them – insists that they do.
@Kay: Spawn the Elder is likely never going back to high school. He will do the GED instead. He has a job now, in a pizza place. He was also really struggling without contact with friends. Adults can endure the virtual stuff better than the kids can, I think.
Retirement sure simplifies making choices about one’s comfort zone. So does living in Chicago, where the ground is flat and everything I need can be found within a few miles. It means I can run all my errands on a bicycle and not worry about enclosed transportation. Let’s see how many more weeks I can keep that up, but it’s 70 out at the moment. All stores require masks, and I am pretty comfortable in any of them now that I have three jabs. (I almost wrote three jabs under my belt, but then I realized someone would kid me about why I didn’t get them in the arm like everyone else.) Restaurants have been outdoors or outdoorsish, but when the day comes, I think I will risk uncrowded, well ventilated, indoor spaces even when taking a mask off to eat. The generally low levels of infection here are part of that equation.
Major Major Major Major
Well, at least you’re consistent in your belief that the unvaccinated don’t have civil rights!
Putting them all in solitary confinement would also reduce transmission. Is that too far, house arrest is good enough?
@Suzanne: We saw St. Vincent at the Wang Theatre last week! Indoor, but vaccination or recent clean test required for entry, and we were *supposed* to wear masks inside though it seemed like all the people who couldn’t be bothered to do that were sitting near us. The place also made a big deal about their air filtration improvements, etc. It was a bigger risk than many here would be willing to take. But concert and theater venues in the Northeast seem to be able to do this without obviously reigniting massive outbreaks.
Great point. And I’ll climb on one of my hobby horses here and point out this is the key tactic of media misinformation today – not to actually *lie*, but to distract people by talking about irrelevancies, or by focusing on flukeish and misleading anecdotes. (Like fully vaxxed Colin Powell dying from COVID, without mentioning his multiple myeloma. Expect that to get a LOT of airplay for the next, oh, 6 months.)
60 Minutes avoided all those topics because somebody in their management chain does *not* want you thinking about them, and is actively working to prevent it.
There’s still a feeling of ridiculousness that the sheriff would have to be called because someone refuses to keep their kid at home, but we are living in pandemic times.
He has an inverse pie filter, and is just reading Ksmiami posts. I still think that’s why that guy’s making ’em.
Rule of law, not vengeance. Stay on target.
I am masked outside when I am with people I don’t know like in the stores. Last week I hosted my first event outside for the town Dems. A good time was had by all.
Right now I am working from home and listening to Marathi songs. I so miss speaking good Marathi, husband kitteh comes from a Tamil speaking family and his Marathi is serviceable. It is his third language. This of course has little to do with the pandemic except that it has put my India plans on an indefinite hold. Hopefully 2022.
Listening to Sarnar kadhi (when will this battle be over) by Jnanpith award winner V. V. Shirwadkar. It is so beautfiul.
The song describes the battle of Panhalgad from Baji Prabhu Deshpande’s POV. Deshpande defended a narrow pass against a much larger attacking force lead by the Siddhis.* He fought till he could he fight no more.
This allowed Shivaji to escape from the forces of Bijapur.
*Siddhis were originally from Africa and they controlled southern coastal Maharashtra. The fort of Janjira was their bastion. My great grandfather worked for the Siddhis as an accountant.
Also the description in the blurb that Shivaji was fighting the Mughals is wrong. Direct engagement with Mughals was ten years in the future.
@Old School: We didn’t go to my BiL’s aunt’s Turkey Day feast last year (I’m sure they didn’t hold it). Not going this year because of uncertainty about people’s vaccination status. We know his other aunt and uncle are refusing to get vaccinated. ?
The Moar You Know
@Major Major Major Major: I support all of it, because it’s working. I no longer have to wear a mask all day at work because of Biden’s executive order for federal contractors, and the numptie in my office who decided this was the hill he was gonna die on has been fired. Everyone else got with the program. So yeah, it’s not gonna kill anyone to have to flash their card or their QR code to buy an ice cream or use the park, unless they’re unvaccinated, and I want those people thwarted and inconvenienced and ostracized at every turn and hopefully just sitting stuck in their homes, because right now we are all paying the price for them having adult oppositional defiant disorder.
@brendancalling: Hang on here. The poster said they tested positive “for Corona”, and the reply was “KEEP DRINKING URINE”.
Given my own opinion about Corona Beer, maybe that’s what that’s about?
I just made plans with a friend to go see the new Wes Anderson movie, The French Dispatch, in a theater on Friday, with a late lunch to follow in a restaurant. The movie is at 12:15, and it’s in very blue Bethesda, MD, so I’m not very worried about COVID exposure. I will have my mask handy, in any case. It will be my first time in a theater since January 2020.
O. Felix Culpa
I love this headline (WaPo): As Japan’s yakuza mob weakens, former gangsters struggle to find a role outside crime.
Maybe someday–and may it be soon–we can substitute GQP for yakuza.
Scottish country dance classes have started back. Everyone must be vaccinated and wear masks. We take more breaks so that people can go outside and catch a breath. The monthly dance parties have mostly been cancelled, though. They are for the whole area so people come from all over. It’s too hard to keep track of who’s there. We also cancelled the annual weekend retreat at Asilomar, near Monterey.
The Royal Scottish Country Dance Society was holding Zoom classes, but I don’t have room to move around in my bedroom.
That *is* a great piece. How is it connected to the vid in the YouTube you linked? Is it the soundtrack or did somebody just pick an illustrative video to accompany the music?
I’m struggling with the fact that our church has decided to have the Christmas concert in person. Soloists and small distanced groups singing, no choirs, but of course we won’t be able to ask for proof of vaccination at the door, and if a lot of people come, mask enforcement will be impossible. I usually perform and usher, but I don’t want to this year. I wasn’t in on the decision to do it in person — I would have argued for doing it online again. So what is my obligation to participate?
Which is exactly why Florida stopped producing the data to show that. BTW, the same thing is true here in California. The worst hit counties (Inyo, Plumas, and Sierra) have had >600 cases/100K residents over the past week, while the best off counties (Marin, San Mateo, and Monterey*) are now 15 fold between the worst and best counties. Funny how regional differences were all people wanted to talk about when it was big cities that were being crushed and rural areas that were escaping, but nobody wants to talk about it now that things have reversed.
*I’m excluding Alpine, which is so small a single case can throw stats off for the whole county.
@Matt McIrvin: St. Vincent is great and I saw her a few years back. I love and very much miss live music.
The venue we are going to (Stage AE) is requiring vaccination. Negative tests are not accepted. LOVE IT.
@Fair Economist: It describes the battle from Deshpande’s POV. He wants the sweet release of death because he is tired and wants to lay down his arms. He can die in peace when he knows that Shivaji has reached Vishalgad at the other end of the ravine safely.
This is from an old movie about Shivaji’s life. The video quality is a bit poor
He is saying when will this battle be over
How long can I tolerate these blows to the head
*jnanpith is the highest literary award in India, it is for lifetime of literary achievement, so more like the Nobel rather than the Pulitzer or the Booker awards
O. Felix Culpa
@Major Major Major Major: Easy fix: they get vaccinated.
You have no obligation to participate, in my opinion. Even good people make faulty decisions occasionally. No obligation to go along with them.
@germy: Congrats to Dennis. It would be unsporting of me to hope he doesn’t enjoy the full experience.
@Major Major Major Major:
It would not be unprecedented. Look up Mary Mallon, AKA Typhoid Mary. Typhoid Mary was a life-long asymptomatic carrier of typhus. She caused several outbreaks before she was identified as the carrier. One she was identified, she wasn’t punished, because it wasn’t her fault – she didn’t know.
But now she did know, and health authorities allowed her to go about her life, with ONE restriction. She was told NOT to take employment as a cook. But it turns out that cooks were paid better than housekeepers, so Mary Mallon continued to backslide and get cooking jobs under assumed names.
After several more outbreaks and several more warnings, she was placed in quarantine. For the REST OF HER LIFE.
So don’t get all righteous about what government health authorities ‘can’t’ do for the public safety. Because it turns out that they CAN.
Indeed, but those swordfighting (sword-dancing?) scenes are pretty fun.
Unless it is a salaried position your obligation is nil.
He says he’s taking zinc so he should be okay.
They can’t understand the part where they are considered a threat.
@germy: Many say that. Some are unpleasantly surprised.
Via Politico (I know, ptuh ptuh feh), but it seems that the public is correctly perceiving the state-level differences in Covid response. Even with hidden data (bold added).
@The Moar You Know: what’s your instrument and preferred genre?
Me: upright and electric bass, some acoustic guitar. Lots of classic country (Buck/Jones/Waylon/etc), rockabilly, and of course metal in all its forms.
Sadly, the Bike Winter website is no more.
WTTW has a good guide.
“Why we behave like microbe hunters”
(title of an old James Thurber parody)
@Fair Economist: Fighting. Its pretty much a suicide mission.
Spoiler alert. Shivaji manages to escape. He was called by one of his antagonists, the mouse of Deccan (South). Because he escaped several times when he had been cornered.
@Kay: Like did they not notice when they were in school that there weren’t a bunch of non-school related adults walking all over the place? But given how suddenly they are concerned that each parent should determine what is taught to each child each day, I can see how they are confused. They think its a shopping mall where people can pick and choose which stores and what to buy and bringing in as much traffic is a good thing.
Major Major Major Major
@JoyceH: freedom of movement jurisprudence has changed a lot since then!
There are definitely time/manner/place/context restrictions to most rights but restricting all movement by an uninfected person, including shopping for food and medicine, because of a disease that basically is not spread outdoors (barring long term close conversation), doesn’t really pass the smell test for me.
@germy: Ooo, wingnut talk show host! He better get his affairs in order.
@zhena gogolia: You have zero obligation IMO. It wasn’t your call, and you’re understandably uncomfortable with the arrangement given what we know about transmission.
A Good Woman
@The Moar You Know: YES! Right here in Chicago the FOP for patrol officers is having a meltdown about mandatory vaccines or testing in lieu of. IMO, take their guns, tasers, badges, pay and send them all to timeout until they grow up or quit.
@germy: People used to feel that way about their kids getting measles or chicken pox – let them get it and just get it over with. Difference is that a case of measles or chicken pox gives you LIFELONG immunity from getting them again, whereas with COVID, you can be reinfected in just a few months, so exposing yourself is just silly.
Goddammit, and I was trying so hard to NOT be ‘that guy’ and stay away from sheer, bile-gargling schadenfreude.
Bless his fucking heart.
Can we have Tim Pool next?
@Fair Economist: it’s actually far more convenient than scrolling through your photos to find the one of the vaccine card, or carrying the hard copy and risk damaging/losing it.
@Major Major Major Major: I sympathize with the people who want the unvaxxed hounded and inconvenienced relentlessly because the unvaxxed have screwed all of us to some degree, especially those of us in wingnut-run states. But that’s the anger talking, and I don’t trust vengeance-based public action in general, so I have to agree with you. Damn it.
@Major Major Major Major:
But, um, most ‘shopping for food and medicine’ takes place INDOORS. And unlike poor Typhoid Mary, the unvaccinated have an easy cure for their shunned status – just get the damn shot.
If someone is determined to remain unvaccinated, they can opt for curbside pickup and a masked employee will wheel their purchase out to the car for them. Easy peasy. But don’t let them into the indoor spaces with the rest of us. One of those effers infected Colin Powell and killed him.
@Betty Cracker: Thanks. I guess I’ll send the long, detailed message I wrote to the minister of music explaining my non-participation. I wish I weren’t put in this position, but there it is.
@Fair Economist: Here is the photo of the ravine that Deshpande gave his life to defend.
@Redshift: I don’t know where Nevada Gaming Control has come out on masks, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they require them, since there are a lot more pro-mask people out there and NGC really likes to keep the tourists happy. They have a lot of clout because they believe strongly in enforcing any and all of their rules, unlike NJ and NY. They will pull or deny a gaming license in a heartbeat if they feel disrespected or disobeyed.
ETA Mask mandate imposed in July.
@Betty Cracker: Sorry, but I’ve got to come down on the side of ‘vengeance based public action’. These a-holes are killing cancer patients.
Major Major Major Major
Not buying ice cream from a stand :P
Some unvaccinated people (keep in mind many are black and poor) can’t afford delivery groceries and don’t have a car for curbside. If they aren’t allowed outside to pick it up without a car…
@James E Powell:
I would say that Authoritarian Followers is a more plentiful category than sociopaths. [i sure hope so.]
Coming late to the thread.
I have been using mass transit to take care of some personal business. I notice that on buses and trains, where masks are required, about 99 percent of people who wear masks with their noses dangling out are men.
Otherwise, here in the Los Angeles areas where I travel, mask compliance is pretty good.
Things getting back to “normal” division: saw a guy outside holding a sign, “Jesus is Lord. Do You Want to Go to Hell?”
I think he was masked.
Well, if anyone needed more proof that Dennis Prager is a nutball…
O. Felix Culpa
@Betty Cracker: The conversation started with an ice cream stand requiring proof of vaccination, not vengeance. While MMM is correct that risk of infection outdoors is low, why shouldnt the ice cream stand owners be allowed to have a vax requirement? If people don’t like it, they can get their ice cream elsewhere or get vaccinated.
@germy: Deliberately trying to get covid is the predictable outcome when people buy the malarkey that natural immunity from having had it is superior to getting vaxxed. Next you’ll see them holding covid parties for their children like the measles parties pre-covid antivax flakes were doing for theirs.
@Major Major Major Major: so, how was the ice cream?
@Major Major Major Major:
There are also other people who are non-driving or non-ambulatory. They wind up having to make arrangements, and the government doesn’t do it for them. They have family members help out or they hire someone to do their shopping or they muddle through somehow. And these are people who don’t have a simple and completely free method of overcoming their obstacles.
So, no, I have utterly no patience for the unvaccinated finding their usual practices curtailed. Because there’s a cure for that!
We’re seeing right now that mandates work. The rates of vaccinations had gone down but now are going back up because people’s jobs are requiring it, or their usual pastimes won’t let them in without proof of vaccination. If these folks had gotten vaccinated as soon as they could, WE’D BE THROUGH THIS BY NOW, probably been past the pandemic by early summer – and a lot of people who are dead today would be alive.
My local hospital is canceling heart and cancer surgeries – they can’t do surgeries that would require hospitalization after the surgery because there’s just no beds for it. The doctors say they’re ‘monitoring’ their heart and cancer patients carefully, but how many of them do you think are going to have poorer outcomes because their surgeries were delayed?
@germy: In this instance I shall wish the virus well and a successful voyage.
@Major Major Major Major:
That isn’t what Fair Economist said, and you know it. He said they’d stay home all the time because there’d be nothing for them to do anywhere else.
Which AFAIAC, isn’t a deprivation of human rights, no matter how boring it might be. It’s basically how I’ve been living for the past year and a half. Let them be the ones to deal with that for a change.
@Suzanne: that should be a fun show!
I took Fro-ette to see the Black Crowes last month. We went big and bought the meet-and-greet tickets, which required proof of vax AND a rapid test at the gate a couple hours before the show. Totally worth it!
I haven’t get up with Prager in years. Long ago I once called in to his Los Angeles talk radio show to challenge him on some issue.
He has a brother who is a highly respected doctor. I wonder how Prager became an anti vaxx idiot.
@germy: No urine?
@Major Major Major Major: I think he’s speaking figuratively. When you’re not allowed to go virtually anywhere—sporting events, bars/restos, concerts, the grocery—you might as well be home 24/7. I use the Quebec vax pass all the time when I’m in Montreal, and it’s not inconvenient at all. You show your pass at the door, you get scanned, show an ID that matches the name on the pass, and you’re in. Takes less than 10 seconds.
I lost 18 months with my kid because of those shitheads, and every day I’m on tenterhooks that the border will close again. I go through much more inconvenience than a scan to see him: if I go up for the weekend (Friday-Sunday), I have to schedule a PCR test for Wednesday after work, then fill out the ArriveCan app before I leave. I’m still subject to a random swab at the border if I get selected. So yeah, not really feeling the objection to the vax pass.
I work in a school, and see kids (and adults) who have been traumatized by the past year (nearly two years, now). You bet your ass I want the willfully unvaccinated legally excluded from as much of society as possible (although no, I wouldn’t put anyone under house arrest). At this point they know what they’re doing is wrong and persist anyway. They brag about it. They harass people trying to protect themselves and their kids. Shit, that assface Dennis Prager got it ON PURPOSE.
You don’t have a civil right to be a public menace. I wouldn’t lock anyone up for being unvaccinated, but I’m fine with making it so they can’t spread their disease in an enclosed public space. All sorts of services exist to help people stay home, including grocery delivery and online ordering. For that matter, we should set up dedicated Covid hospitals so other patients and staff don’t risk infection, and car wreck victims and cancer patients can get an ICU bed.
I’ve had it with those people. Enough already.
The insufferable anti cancel culture people are on tv again, whining about being cancelled.
CNN should give Bari Weiss her own show. Anything less is silencing her. Glenn Greenwald already has the sidekick slot on Tucker Carlson. Now all of them get a show, or it’s not fair.
A) that’s some sick thinking about your fellow Americans. I want them to be better humans not dead. YMMV, but I think you should re-evaluate.
B) it would have caused massively higher death rates among liberals, moderates, and non-political people as well in order to achieve your desired outcome. Elderly and pre-existing conditions would have had very high percentages or mortality.
After two years, I made an appointment to get my teeth cleaned. Has the dental technician been vaccinated? “We can’t tell you personal information.”
@O. Felix Culpa: That’s where the conversation started, and FWIW, I agree the ice cream stand has a right to enforce masks at their private business, especially if someone is getting up in an employee’s face to order, even outside. Heck, I wish every business would check for vax status or universally require masks. But the conversation then went on to include things like random vaccination status checks at public parks. That kind of thing is a bridge too far for me, even though I have zero pity for the anti-vaxxers.
Been to one live theater performance, two stadium sportsball events and four outdoor (duh) cross-country races. Theater and stadiums (stadia?) required vaccine and theater required masking up as well. The California venues could read the state’s vaccine QR code, the Portland stadium could not, but an image of the federal vaccine card on the phone did the trick. Outdoors there were no checks or mask requirements, IIRC in compliance with county regulations of the moment.
Honestly, only the airport-flight-airport masking seems interminable.
Special masks for gambling smokers, with little filter ports. Get your roulette fix on!
Also those (raises hand) who have zero use for a cell phone, for whom it is basically a costly bauble entailing ongoing expense of minuscule value.
@NotMax: I haven’t had a landline in over 10 years.
@Brachiator: Prager went off the deep end long ago when he left the mainstream ABC talk radio station in LA and hitched his wagon to Salem media and its stable of bonkers right-wing loons.
O. Felix Culpa
@Betty Cracker: I missed conversation about random vax checks and I agree with you on that , but what I saw was MMM creating a straw man argument about deprivation of civil rights, when all the commenter said was he/she was fine with the unvaccinated staying home on their lonesome, presumably because nobody wanted to be around them. What that person did NOT say was that the government should force the unvaccinated to stay home. MMM made that leap and someone else chimed in and so it went. I have no time for privileged contrarianism.
@NotMax: Almost agree with you. I have a flip phone that I treat like a landline. It has its own special pocket in my purse and that is where I keep it always when I am not actually talking on it.
I have a suspicion that a substantial number of these new vaccinations are really booster shots for the already-vaccinated that aren’t being recorded as such, because people are lying to get them or records are lax.
All well and good as applicable to your needs. Diff’rent strokes and all that.
Unfortunately, probably not true. In the Republic of Ireland, for example, 90 percent of adults have been vaccinated, but there continue to be spikes of infection. Part of this is because the world is still largely unvaccinated and travel cannot be totally controlled. And the Delta variant appears to be harder to deal with than experts imagined.
Countries like New Zealand, which had taken strong measures to deal with the Coronavirus, are now trying to figure out how to live with the virus. They may have given up trying to eradicate it.
Obviously, the vaccine has reduced the deadliest impact of the virus. But it does not look as though herd immunity will be as successful as hoped. The CDC is no longer projecting a total return to normalcy. Experts are wrestling with new definitions of success with respect to dealing with the pandemic, and maybe reducing it to an endemic.
How we look at and treat pockets of unvaccinated people may also need to change.
@NotMax: You’re going to find it harder and harder to do some things without a cell phone. At my dentist and at the vet, you arrive and call them and tell them you’re there. When they’re ready for you they’ll call you in or come out and fetch your pet. Parking lots are the new waiting rooms, cell phones required. I have no idea what people without cell phones do at these places.
Some fuckers were doing that already last year.
Governor Ron DeSantis and his accomplices willfully and selfishly pushed pro-plague measures that killed my first cousin’s husband a few weeks ago in Florida. Fully vaccinated, but immune depressed because he was recovering from some bone breakage. Caught SARS-CoV-2 (Delta, probably) in a health care setting, possibly a hospital, even though he was masked (many others were not masked, and spewing their deadly breath-cargo into shared air.). (They were isolating, only associating with people that they were confident were vaccinated, and masked everywhere else. Good man, very recently retired professor, got me to read some more Noam Chomsky.)
Ron DeSantis and his accomplices deserve to pay a serious price for their mass homicide in selfish pursuit of political gain. I’m quite OK if the price paid is … not purely political.
@Brachiator: honestly the way to deal is if u are anti vax for political and not actual health reasons, no hospital should have to treat you. There. That’s the solution
@Suzanne: oh hells yes.
I’ve been going to shows the last couple months – here in NY all venues are requiring proof of vaccination or a negative test.
I saw Rancid in August at an outdoor venue and COVID-wise it felt pretty safe, actually.
One good thing about retirement—on which I am gradually schooling my recently retired brother—is that you can go to restaurants at off-peak times: weekdays, lunch early or late, dinner early, etc. It’s much easier to avoid the crowds when you’re not constrained by a job schedule.
I’ve been mulling over the wisdom or foolishness of going out to a movie. I suppose I would be masked all the while. Probably not worth it, but I am guessing the new Dune version would be more fun on a big screen.
I mask everywhere indoors, although that’s just humdrum errands. I haven’t eaten out inside yet, although CT weather is telling me the moment is now. People here are pretty good about both vaccinations and masks. There are some “no masks for kids” nuts about–I just ask if their kids wear underpants? Such morans.
@O. Felix Culpa: I am noticing that the unmasked tend to be a lot less concerned about social distancing and crowding people in front of them in lines, so even outdoors at an icecream stand or a taco truck they can be a bit of a menace to the people in line or behind the counter.
@delk: “It was great. It’s fucking ice cream.” — Roy Kent
@Bill Arnold: ah come on scaffolding is definitely political…
Mike in NC
Last night I finished reading “Peril” by Woodward and Costas. The Epilogue deals with Trump holed up at Mar-a-Lago, where he has a pathetic ritual going on where he and Melania arrive for dinner and the rich club members in attendance stand up and applaud. He also keeps in touch with GOP knee-benders. The worst is Lindsey Graham, the spineless toady who constantly calls to inquire about the Orange Clown’s morale and shifting moods. Wouldn’t be surprised if Loathsome Lindsey offers to be unpaid campaign manager in 2024. I’d rather they share adjoining prison cells.
O. Felix Culpa
@sab: I have noticed the same.
@Suzanne: This was the first indoor concert I’ve been to since Valentine’s Day 2020. That was Saint Motel, so I guess it was saints at both ends.
We did go to Haverhill River Ruckus a few weeks back, which had outdoor music acts, of which the most impressive we saw were The Unlikely Candidates. And Sam’s wind band has had an outdoor live concert.
Dollars to donuts compliance when it comes to checking status in neighborhoods such as Borough Park and Midwood is less universal.
@Nutmeg again: We’ve done the thing a couple times where we get some friends and family together and rent out a movie theater. Saw Black Widow that way–it was surprisingly affordable. I’m not comfortable seeing movies with strangers at this point, since they wouldn’t be checking vax status or anything.
A big anti-vaccine protest now in California with parents and students marching on the capitol. Ugh. They are getting all kinds of news stories in the local television news. Ugh. Link
@Jim Appleton: It is striking to look at a Covid map of OR and see the east-west divide neatly separated by the Cascade Mountains
Opposition isn’t about science. It’s about who has cultural authority. Mask and vaccine mandates reflect a cultural authority that they have always been able to set or veto, but no longer can, which is why they keep lashing out in more extreme and violent ways. It’s why so many things are all bundled together – voting, masks, CRT, etc.
This is the moment that white christians fell into the cultural minority, and they aren’t going without a fight, and they’re going to rail against *everything* that they can’t influence any longer.
This culture war is determined and they’ve lost. They just aren’t ready to surrender. Maybe not for a while.
@Scout211: Imagine being so fucked in the head that you won’t take a simple step toward protecting your own kids.
@The Moar You Know:
I’ve been doing fully masked band practice with all vaxed players. Playing outdoor parties this month before total nad freeze weather. Not sure when gigs will happen.
Major Major Major Major
Come on he’s literally saying he’s okay with a vaccine mandate for being in the park, you don’t even have to squint to see that he’s okay with a vaccine mandate for being on the sidewalk.
I’m sure black population of NYC, which is 43% vaccinated, would be thrilled with “random” police stops for either.
It may just be possible that those voters are sociopaths themselves. I’m not saying they are, it’s just a possibility. OK the probability of this possibility is high on this one but still……
Ugh. I watched part of the video report from the “man on the street” reporter breathlessly talking about the protest as if it was an exciting event and he was there in front of the action (like a weather channel reporter in front of a hurricane). Ugh.
Perfect. Agreed. It’s the anti-cancel culture group too. THEY are the public intellectuals! Who are these upstart usupers and how dare they?
I agree that they aren’t manipulating or hiding data for political gain. But neither have they done a very good job with recommendations and communication. I was really looking forward to having Redfield replaced, but Walensky was not what I was hoping for. I’m sure she’s an excellent doctor, but her communication skills are poor and “following the science” while ignoring human behavior just as the delta variant was taking hold, led to countless unnecessary deaths. Most of those deaths were among the unvaccinated, but many breakthrough infections and deaths occurred among those who were vaccinated but relaxed their precautions based on CDC recommendations.
I live in Washington State and the guidance coming from University of Washington experts has been consistently better and more realistic than that of the CDC. Under Walensky the CDC has done an inconsistent job, which has sometimes been extremely poor. Again, Walensky “followed the science,” but ignored human behavior (of people known to be dishonest and irresponsible) when the CDC loosened recommendations for the fully vaccinated. The surge that followed was completely predictable, as businesses dropped mask requirements and countless unvaccinated people pretended to be vaccinated. After listening to an interview with Walensky, I gave up looking to the CDC for guidance. Her lack of clarity was striking, but not that surprising for someone whose job is science and medicine not communication.
Sadly, I think that Walensky was one of Biden’s poorer appointments, one that has resulted in confusion, further erosion of confidence in government experts, and many unnecessary deaths. It seems unlikely that she is making decisions in a vacuum, so others at the CDC must share responsibility for the center’s failings, but Walensky, at a minimum, should not be the spokesperson for the CDC.
@Major Major Major Major: the vaccine is free.
The same idiots who didn’t want to vaccinate their kids against measles are taking advantage of COVID to relitigate the issue. I don’t think it’s going to go any better for them than it did the first time, at least not here in California, but that won’t keep them from trying.
The chorus I sing with has been rehearsing outdoors since the spring (following a year of Zoom). Tonight, we’re moving back indoors. Everyone must be vaccinated and masked. A few members won’t attend indoors under any circumstances–one’s a surgeon, one has an immunocompromised spouse, one works with transplant patients. We have singer’s masks that extend further forward to provide air space around the nose and mouth, kind of like a muzzle.
A net of a Jonestown per day of lost R minus D votes is not chopped liver. Some elections will be decided for Democrats when the margin is smaller than the net Rs killed by Rs in voter base for those elections.
@Bill Arnold: I’m so sorry about your cousin’s husband. :(
FWIW, I will be doing everything in my power as a Florida voter to make sure DeSantis isn’t reelected. I’d swim through an alligator-infested sewer pipe to vote for whomever the Dems nominate.
We’re leaving for the gulf a week from today and I have an offshore trip scheduled for the 27th. My intention is to mask in the cabin and not on deck.
This has been an ongoing problem throughout the pandemic. Public health officials have proposed rule after rule that assume high levels of compliance. This was bad enough when the problem was people who had trouble complying because the rules were needlessly complicated, but it’s been really terrible now that there’s a large minority that blatantly ignores the rules whenever they think they can get away with it. It doesn’t help that the failure to follow the rules has made the people who proposed them fall into disrepute.
O. Felix Culpa
@Raven: I recently got back from a month in Germany, and while I didn’t fish, my practice was the same: mask indoors (in enclosed spaces), no mask outdoors.
Data point of one: I was fine and have the negative COVID test to prove it. :)
@Roger Moore: I commented this morning that a friend went on an inshore trip in Louisiana and the captain of the boat harassed his MD buddy for the “fake virus” hysteria!
@Benw: I have been finding a great deal of solace and sanity in Bad Religion this year. “Age of Unreason” is a great album.
Major Major Major Major
@brendancalling: there are many free things that I oppose as prerequisites for leaving one’s house.
I feel like this one isn’t hard to get right lol. Look I’m mad too. But step back for ten seconds and think about the “vaccine mandate to go to the park” idea without anger.
Yes. It is about relative social status. This is an amorphous, qualitative thing, and there are so many commenters here with strong STEM and analytical skills, that I think we don’t really discuss this in depth, because status is real but not quantifiable.
But fuck. It animates every part of our shitty politics right now. It has never been more salient.
@Major Major Major Major: let me ask this…. During a public health crisis, who should have to bear the burden of noncompliance with reasonable regulations, those who complied or those who did not?
@Roger Moore: I am literally on a plane right now about 10 feet from a guy who keeps pulling his mask down, especially when he coughs. Nice dude, and he genuinely doesn’t seem to understand why people keep asking him to pull it up.
This is the nice end of noncompliance. There’s also another person who threw a fit, thats the bad end.
O. Felix Culpa
@Major Major Major Major: When I was little, I came down with a highly infectious and dangerous childhood disease, probably measles or German measles. The doctor officially put me in quarantine and I could not leave the house (and maybe my siblings couldn’t either, don’t remember). I do not think that the unvaccinated should be confined to house arrest, but making them unwelcome in public places to restrict their ability to infect others with a dangerous disease no more harms their civil rights than the doctor did mine.
ETA: I got sick before the vaccination was available; the majority of today’s COVID unvaccinated have no such excuse.
O. Felix Culpa
@Omnes Omnibus: Thank you.
The Moar You Know
@brendancalling: electric bass and “anything anyone will pay me to play”
Just saw that Mel Brooks is making a History of the World part II to be released on Hulu.
Will be disappointed if there’s no Hitler on Ice or Jews in Space.
You ever ask him if his life insurance policy is up to date, and does his family know where it is?
What about his will?
The Moar You Know
@sab: They would not let Trump Tower in Vegas get a gaming permit. It’s the only hotel in Vegas with no gambling.
I think somebody should take a look at why that call was made. I would bet it’s one of two things:
@Roger Moore: And, in addition, the CDC “unvaxxed only” was not realistically enforceable. It’s bad enough to have a rule that allows a mess if not strictly followed, but even worse when you know it won’t be and there’s no enforcement mechanism.
@patrick II:After two years, I made an appointment to get my teeth cleaned. Has the dental technician been vaccinated? “We can’t tell you personal information.”
My take on this problem is “Does your workplace mandate that personnel that interact with patients are vaccinated?” if they say no then you tell them you are taking your business elsewhere until they change their policy.
Prager is not a Christian. And although he is probably a cultural authoritarian, he used to recognize and accept science.
Major Major Major Major
Those who did not, obviously, but is “the unvaccinated are not allowed outside” a reasonable regulation?
Counterpoint: A spike of infection in Ireland is 200 cases (if my googling is accurate.) So while we might not be “over” the pandemic, it could be at a level where there are local measures to keep it contained at some amount of inconvenience, and everyone else goes about their non-pandemic lives.
So yeah, it seems like getting to a point where it’s over and we never have to think about it again may never have been in the cards, but getting past the point where everyone in the country has to assume covid is active in their local area is a real possibility, and the reason we’re not there is right-wing assholes demanding their “freedom” to infect the rest of us.
@The Moar You Know: Electric eel!
Speaking of comfort zones…like only a couple threads?
@Betty Cracker: To be fair, it’s the wingnut radio hosts who seem to be the designated Red Shirts. Unclear if the effect holds to any form of broadcast medium.
IMO, some of the worst noncompliers are the people who pretend to be vaccinated when they aren’t. The people who pitch a fit are at least publicly identifying themselves as pro-COVID so the authorities can deal with them. The really dangerous people are the ones who silently spread COVID because rules are for everyone else. They can’t be bothered to wear a mask or be vaccinated, and if that means they spread COVID to everyone around them, tough luck to everyone else.
Of course the absolute worst are the ones who spread misinformation, too. It’s bad enough to spread the virus. It’s worse when you encourage others to do the same.
Random covid fyi (I’ll try to repost in tomorrow’s am covid thread) – per my MD appointment today, if/when #TeamModerna boosters are authorized, sticking with Moderna seems like the way to go based on overall better efficacy.
Certainly talk to your own providers, too, but that was her vote. ?♀️
I know the reasons that people oppose or resist the COVID vaccination are many and varied but I wonder how we can change the narrative to a more historical context of communicable diseases. I wonder just what percentage of those protesting in the streets and in school board meetings are unaware that just few decades ago people were sick and dying of diseases that they will never experience because they have been vaccinated. They have never had small pox, polio, measles (of any variety), chicken pox or mumps. But likely their parents or grandparents have had at least one.
Reading through the COVID threads here for the past almost 2 years, many juicers are old enough to have had one or more of those childhood diseases. I had all of them, except for small pox and polio. But I have been vaccinated for both of those.
Chickenpox was horrible for me. I still remember how sick I was. I couldn’t even open my eyes there was so much pain. Where I grew up, we had a quarantine card with the childhood disease listed on it (color coded for each disease) and we had to display it prominently on our front door to warn visitors.
Heck, my maternal grandfather died when my mother was 5 years old from strep in 1932. They didn’t use penicillin for strep infections until 1942, IIRC.
These “it’s my choice not to vaccinate” idiots just don’t have a clue.
@Major Major Major Major: Who is suggesting that?
Thanks! Didn’t know Bad Religion was touring. Now I’ve got ticket to see them on 11/27!
@The Moar You Know: And the Aussies wouldn’t let the Soviet shitpile mobster conman build a casino in Sydney due to the orange shitpile’s mafia ties back in the 80’s!
@Major Major Major Major:
Are you still beating up on that strawman?
@Kay: Some of it is starting here. We just had a state rep request reams of data from the local school district – things like searching all records for the past 10 years for 21 “trigger words” like equality and diversity. The district told him it was going to cost him at least $197,000 to fulfill everything in his (completely unreasonable) request, and now he’s squealing like a stuck pig that they’re trying to hide something. These people have no concept at all of how long these things take, and of the fact that it takes people away from other things they need to be doing. We’re a 65% Trump area but they’re convinced all the school board members are liberal Democrats.
The Moar You Know
@Martin: I’ll just point out that a lot of the current “anti-vaxxers” were fine with masking when it involved hoods and burning crosses.
Yes, “vaccinated people can stop wearing masks” was a stupid policy that failed predictably. It was the triumph of wishful thinking over experience.
@The Moar You Know: Their rule used to be that if you built a hotel without a gaming license then you would never get one. They were not going to let someone use facts in the ground make up their minds for them ( unlike NJ). It may still be the rule. It’s been 20 years since I was anywhere near Nevada and gaming.
NGC has also been pretty strict on who you are connected to ever since Harry Reid cleaned things up ages ago. Either would be a problem for Trump.
@Suzanne: they’re so great.
I don’t have that album yet, will give it a try!
@Bill Arnold: There you go again always looking at the bright side…!
@O. Felix Culpa: Yea, I went to the Georgia game Saturday and masked in the restroom and concourse.
@Steeplejack: Around us the restaurants aren’t open at off peak times because they can’t staff them. My step-daughter does door dash and she is finding that a lot of the pricier places that used to be open for lunch and the afternoon only open for dinner now, and not every day of the week like they used to.
Manchin’s a liar who misrepresented his own position on this bill in a calculated effort to gain a strategic advantage and kill it completely. I recognize reality and I know he has the power to kill Biden’s agenda, but it’s time to stop asking him questions and expecting an honest answer. He hasn’t been honest at any point of these negotiations. He lied for months about what he was willing to support- he moved his own goalpost just last week when he added a brand new HUGE condition- no action on climate change.
He should either be asked about this series of lies he has told in the last 6 months when he’s making these appearances or they should stop allowing him to recite more. It’s no longer just “not negotiating in good faith”. He’s proven to be a liar.
That’s no solution at all.
Mandates will sweep up the non-crazy. Otherwise we need to get to any who have had problems getting vaccinated.
@TriassicSands: The “rationale” for loosening the mask recommendations this past May was stunning. It assumed an honest, logical, rules following public. Do you know what country you are in Dr. Walensky? I get tired of ” they are in an ivory tower” arguments, but this decision stank of ivory tower.
What is it with older with older white men not masking at the grocery store? They are starting to be the rule not the exception. I have returned to my old practice of standing in front of my cart so it barricades them from breathing down my neck in line and keeps them about six feet back from me if not from my groceries. I see couples with a masked wife and an unmasked husband. It’s just weird, and childish.
O. Felix Culpa
Fixt. :) With acknowledgement of the decent representatives of that demographic in our midst.
@sab: We were at an HOA board meeting that required masks. From where I sat I could see three men (most of the complex is white) with masks below their noses, including one of the board members. It’s the same in grocery stores—most of the people with masks below nose or chin are men.
Major Major Major Major
@lowtechcyclist: it’s not a straw man when somebody is suggesting it!
@Omnes Omnibus: Fair Economist @75. I don’t think I’m being uncharitable in this interpretation. He wants policies for use of outdoor public spaces that would force the unvaccinated to stay home 24-7 (his words) because “there would be nothing for them to do in public”
anyway, it’s been fun kids, quitting time!
@O. Felix Culpa: Yes. You are right. I just notice it because I am myself not a spring chicken anymore, and I cannot believe they don’t feel at risk themselves. The younger men seem to be most of them, regardless of race or color. Kids, you know. Aggravating and selfish and invincible in their own minds.
ETA Also the younger ones don’t creep up behind me in line, because just my age is offputting. I might just turn around and talk to them or some other embarrassment.
O. Felix Culpa
@Major Major Major Major:
The suggestion was initiated here: Major Major Major Major.
The commenter fell into the trap that was laid, and the strawman has been beaten ever since, with exactly no one else supporting said suggestion.
ETA: The 24/7 comment is ambiguous and can be read as simply the consequence of the unvaxxed being shunned, not forced house arrest. YMMV.
That can be said about every single political/medical concept he seems to hold. It astounds me how hard republicans seem to work, just to be incorrect about everything.
I’m not ready to declare victory at all. These things can still be taken by force.
@The Moar You Know:
I’m going to be in California (for a confernce) and I will try to hit a CVS before I leave and take a shot.
@cain: yes, everybody. Come to California and get the vaccine. Get a booster. This stuff works and everyone should be getting them.
Winning depends on what the rules of the game are. If the game is how many of your own constituents can you kill, Death Santis is winning.
Actual humans don’t play by those rules.
That’s going to be a tough debate. They are very good.
Major major major major:
Back in the pre-vaccine days we would go for walks in our metroparks and my husband would yell at the unmasked. I would mutter to him that he was being an asshole, and it was unproductive.
I feel standing in/on line at a private business establishment inside or outside is different. The owner ought to be able to enforce health guidelines to protect employees and customers.
@Kay: fuck him. Remove him from committees, Biden should tell him he no longer will waste his time. He’s a corrupt asshat who deserves nothing but scorn. Let him go work for Mitch- at least our enemies will be clearly defined.
The vast majority of kids go to school with other kids, even if their contact isn’t what one might call prime, it is still better than none. A lot of kids my age spent a lot of school at home in bed, what with all the diseases that we had no vaccines for at the time and that we all got. We discussed this at my 50th HS reunion. No one could say they hadn’t had all the diseases. And some of us had it worse because we had side/after effects of some of the diseases or lived in families with kids only one to two years apart. They got sick at the same time or got repeatedly sick. But now kids are more used to seeing each other a lot during the school year. Asking why someone was out was a constant. I’d bet that is done far less now.
@Brachiator: I’m saying the crazy don’t deserve icu beds. Hey if you deny science, ride it all the way
Right down to the last second of the experience. Hope he gets there soon….
I wonder if he knows he’s supposed to take the zinc melted for the best Covid effect?
@Bill Arnold: the first 14 months or so, the toll was in black and latino health and service workers. I do not know how the later surges changed that. probably ends a wash.
@Ruckus: So the kids will get over al this separation becase it is the new normal, like the much older normal. The teachers are freaked, the parents are freaked, but the grandparents say that’s how it was in our day. Get used to it.
I personally would love to get rid of perfect attendance awards, where kids drag themselves to school when they should be home in bed.
Serious question: have there been any published studies/analyses of the demographics and politics and social groupings of COVID-19 deaths in the US in 2021?
There is a study of excess deaths that runs through Dec 2020 that shows stark ethnic disparities that closely map to what you describe. I haven’t seen anyone do an analysis correlating e.g. deaths with registration in a political party.
Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Excess Deaths During the COVID-19 Pandemic, March to December 2020 (5 October 2021))
@Major Major Major Major:
How do you know they are uninfected?
How long is a long term conversation? 3 words? Or is it a “conversation” where an unknown infected person can kill you without saying a word and just by being near you?
This is not just an infectious disease. I’ve stated here many times that I’m old enough to have had all the diseases of my childhood, except the worse one, polio. I didn’t have to have contact or even speak to someone to get all of them. Everyone I knew had all of those diseases, including the one that not everyone got, polio, which could in fact kill people if they got it in their chests because they suffered so much from lung damage. (2 of my friends had iron lungs in their front rooms that their moms used) I had encephalitis and had to be under a doctors care for 5 yrs after I had the measles. None of those diseases were as bad as Covid. NONE. And you think it’s OK for people who can give anyone Covid to walk around and breathe on anyone they want? Should anyone be able to drive at any speed they want? Or carry a gun? Or infect anyone just by being an asshole?
Sorry I don’t see your point/side in this issue. This is society, we have to live around people we don’t know, who can infect us with an actual deadly disease, we have the medication to fight that disease and they want the “freedom” to infect and kill others? Not buying it. We live in a free society but that has never meant that there aren’t limits, there always are, limits, restrictions, requirements, licenses, and yes there have to be some limits to those but nothing is entirely free from being part of society. Nothing. Not every male between 18 and 26 had to serve in the military during the last draft period we had, the Vietnam war. But many did and many of those people died in a bullshit war. Over 58,000 people died, a lot of them died after being drafted. Believe me many of them did not want to die, or kill people, but that wasn’t their choice. I had to carry a loaded gun, half way around the world from that war and my orders were that if necessary, shoot to kill. That necessary part, that was my decision, in the moment. I never had to do that. But that was my duty. You want that job? I sure as fuck didn’t. And I sure as fuck do not want the decision to possibly die from some ones desire to have an ice cream cone because he/she’s a dumb dipshit who don’t think enough of themselves and those around them.
I think we actually are on the same page. As someone way old enough to be a granddad I’d rather have my grand kids alive and deprived of all that closeness/friendships than the other way around.
And yeah, I don’t remember any attendance awards, nor anyone who would have ever been able to earn perfect. Seems like a stupid thing.
@Brachiator: But he identifies with that cultural group as it’s broadly defined. There are non-Christians and non-whites among them and white Christians outside of that group, but ‘white christian’ broadly describes the GOP, who Trump clearly spoke to, and who has been running the show in the US for the last 4 centuries, with all the slavery and genocide needed to keep that going. It’s not that Christianity shapes the cultural movement so much as it’s shaped by it. It’s why prosperity gospel finds a home and ministers can advocate against public health.
But they’ve now lost. They can’t advance a cultural narrative that resonates nationally. Trump was their hail mary, which is a bit why they can’t seem to get over him.
@Betty Cracker: you have no idea, I have an eight year old who goes to in person school. Every day I think about whether or not this is the day he comes home with the sniffles or cough and the freakout that comes with it. I actually had to test him today because he has a cold. He has a runny nose, congestion, no fever though. I was pretty sure that it was just a cold but you just don’t know. I went to pharmacy to pick up a rapid test, I figured if he was exhibiting symptoms the take home test would pick it up. Luckily the test was available, $23.99 for a kit with 2 tests. The result was negative. The school won’t even let him back until runny nose and congestion stops. They’re not taking any chances. Good for them. I’m ok with that.