TPM’s David Kurtz and Zainab Shah noted that as the BBB bill negotiations wind down, talk about the next big topic on the horizon — passing legislation to protect voting rights — is increasing. Passing a voting rights bill will require at least reforming the filibuster because the likelihood of finding 10 Republican votes is about on par with the chance that I’ll become a billionaire because my dogs start pooping Unobtainium. Here’s how Kurtz and Shah lay out the stakes:
It’s hard to maintain a hair-on-fire sense of urgency for years on end, but coming out of the Trump first term breaking the back of the filibuster remains the single most urgent piece of business for Congress. It will enable passage of the democracy reforms that will blunt the entrenchment of minority white rule. And, depending on how far-reaching the filibuster reforms are, it could also unleash myriad possibilities for new legislative initiatives and has a decent chance of changing the incentive structure for Mitch McConnell’s brand of burn-it-all-down conservatism.
That sounds about right to me, and I also agree that if Dems can’t take away the authoritarian cult party’s legislative veto power, there will be a “generations-long reckoning for the failure to tackle it.” That said, I just don’t see how the president plus the 95% or so of the Democratic Party caucus in Congress that supports filibuster reform can budge the fringe outliers who oppose it, even on an existential issue like voting rights. Do you think it’s doable?
Open thread!
geg6
I’m probably wrong, but I think requiring the talking filibuster might work for Manchin and Sinema. Both have seemed a bit open to it in past discussions of this.
I dunno though. I can’t get into the heads of those two idiots.
Baud
We’re confident about the BBB, I see? :-)
guachi
No, the filibuster will not be changed in any way. It won’t even be changed to force people to talk on the floor or for 41 votes to be present.
If we get 52 D Senators in 2023 (lol no) then I see movement on the filibuster happening.
Keith
This is arguably the Dems last chance to save the country from the fascists. If they fail to do so, they deserve to be tossed onto the ash heap of history.
Brendan in NC
It is doable. However, it will require spines of steel. And hard deadlines from Schumer, that are followed through on. With promises made in public that they can’t back away from. That also means that Manchinema needs to know that Schumer will send the Sergeant at Arms to drag Sinema off the plane as she tries to escape; and that Manchin’s chairmanship(s) will be pulled if they try to pull out of any deal.
Elizabelle
It has to be done, but I just cannot bear to read threads about it on this blog. Too many doom and gloomers. Hard pass.
Spanky
The local Giant supermarket has Christmas candy set out alongside the remaining Halloween candy. Is it wrong of me to hand out Christmas tree-shaped candy bars on Halloween?
Spanky
@Elizabelle: That’s why I threw #7 in.
Elizabelle
@Keith:
Fuck you, no. If the Democrats fail, it will not be for lack of trying. Maybe you personally belong on the ash heap of history. I don’t and they don’t.
Did I already say “fuck you?” Yes. Well. Fuck you.
Can you count? Do you remember John Lewis?
Had not even read your comment before putting up my own about I cannot stand these filibuster threads.
Brendan in NC
@geg6: They keep saying that’s an option. But then their paymasters remind them that it makes it tougher on them when they want to use it. I’m also starting to think that those we will need don’t care, because they’re in safe seats. Manchin thinks he is; and I think Schumer’s there as well.
Elizabelle
@Spanky: You’re a good person.
Go for the good chocolate.
Spanky
@Elizabelle: Always! I have to eat what’s left!
SFAW
Sure, but only via questionable/illegal tactics (e.g., threatening various unspecified acts of retribution [“nice company you got here, Heather, be a shame if anyone decided EpiPens were a critical Defense commodity, and decided Mylan had to give them away, i.e., for free,” telling Sinema that she could only wear the same styles and colors as Speaker Pelosi or Emily Litella]).
And I am less than sanguine about the Dems retaining their hold on the Senate, but sure do hope I’m worng.
On the other hand, maybe Republican moderates like Lisa Murkowski or Susie Collins will vote for filibuster reform/changes, because they think their Party is being unreasonable. [I swear, I crack myself up sometimes.
ETA: To be a little more serious: I think it’s possible, but I have no idea what it will take for Manchin and Sinema to wake up and do the right thing. No idea if it’s quasi-bribery (e.g., carve-outs), or threats (which I doubt would work on Manchin), or something else that Chuck Schumer has in his back pocket.
Brantl
They need to light a fire under these people IN THEIR HOME STATES. If the party starts talking trash about them IN THEIR HOME STATES, it will come to their attention, rapidement. They need to be looking for a Cinema replacement RIGHT NOW. They need to start talking Manchin replacement RIGHT NOW. We can find another blue dog, just as blue as Manchin, and less of a dog. We can find a reasonably middle-of-the-road democrat in Arizona, that isn’t doing her Helen Keller impression.
jeffreyw
Just Chuck
Sure, in a functioning country. I’m still alive because I haven’t held my breath.
piratedan
@geg6: I just think that they’re human, I don’t want to assign anything special to their supposed motivation other than the usual human frailties, greed, vanity, selfishness.
geg6
@Brantl:
I think you’re right about finding an easy replacement for Sinema. However, I don’t know much about Arizona politics. But you are completely and absolutely wrong about Manchin. There is simply no other Dem in West Virginia who could be elected to that seat and I’m beginning to doubt that even Manchin can hold it. I’ve lived in extremely close proximity to West Virginia and know it quite well. I’m confident that I’m right about this.
germy
Raoul Paste
@SFAW: “telling Sinema that she could only wear the same styles and colours as Speaker Pelosi or Emily Litella”……
I’d like to see it
marklar
@Elizabelle: Thank you, Eilzabelle.
If a person (e.g., Keith) is willing to toss out the entire Democratic Party because of the policy/procedural choices of a few outliers, that person may just as well join the Green Party and campaign for Jill Stein. Or better yet, they could cut out the middleperson and just vote for Trump because both sides.
CaseyL
H’mm. I’ll be interested to see how the December debt ceiling vote goes. If the GQP filibusters a vote again, as it will, and President Biden ultimately says, “Well, looks like we’re gonna default because of the filibuster,” maybe that’ll light a fire under S&M, if only because default threatens their own pocketbooks.
SFAW
@geg6:
I think you’re probably right re: Manchin. Despite how infuriating he can be, having him is better than an R-bot there. I hear “what if Manchin switches parties?” bandied about a lot; I freely admit that I’m not very savvy re: WV politics, but it seems like he’s not the kind of person to do that.
SFAW
@Raoul Paste:
Thought you could slip that one by me, eh? Gorram furriner.
Cameron
I believe deep inside that it’s doable, but I’ll be damned if I can see how.
geg6
@piratedan:
Oh, I certainly don’t think they are special in any way in that they just are operating out of human motivations. However, I think that, especially in Sinema’s case, there is a real puzzle as to what she understands is her best interests. I totally get Manchin. Doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s an idiot and impossible to deal with, but I get that he’s just dumb fuck greed head with an insatiable need to be in the spotlight. Sometimes, with Manchin, you can give him some sop in a bill and lots of pats on the head and praise in MSM and he goes along with whatever. Sometimes he digs in his heels like a stubborn toddler with no charm. I can’t fathom which one will show up, which makes it impossible to know what he’ll agree to or not. Sinema is like an alien from Mars to me. The only thing I can possibly think of her is that she is a psychopath or sociopath. Or has some sort of major personality disorder. I find her a complete puzzle.
ETA: I am also very sorry for ever contributing the Sinema’s campaign. Won’t happen again, for sure.
Suzanne
Yeah I do not think it’s doable.
We don’t build things in this country, or take bold steps to do the right thing, well, ever.
Sorry to be a bummer, but I honestly don’t see how this happens.
sdhays
@CaseyL: This is what I’ve been wondering. This is the primary reason, I think, that McConnell folded on the debt ceiling before. If Democrats don’t put it in the BBB, the debt ceiling is going to once again come under the filibuster. And Democrats will force someone to move – either the GQP blinks again or Manchinema blink and reform the filibuster so that there’s a mechanism for general bills to get past the filibuster, not just reconciliation wanking.
Fair Economist
@Brendan in NC:
Schumer can’t force hard deadlines because either has the power to tell him to go pound sand, and caucus with the Republicans to get all their privileges back and then some.
Right now the House Progressive Caucus *does* have something on them, the bipartisan infrastructure plan. But that deal is to get BBB and so once BBB is done that will be released and there’s nothing to hold over Manchin or Sinema.
Leto
@CaseyL: unless their paymasters have bet on a short, in which case they’ll stick to their filibuster guns. Or do like what they did to the BBB and make sure that conservative interests are guaranteed.
germy
Brant
@geg6: That would really depend on how hard people look .
terraformer
I think if some high percentage, maybe 95%? of party members support legislation, then the holdouts’ votes are automatically “in support of”.
Unless and until we have true campaign finance reform – i.e., government-funded elections, with sunshine on any and all outside contributions – we must have some capability to deal with intransigence, regardless of the underlying reasons, whether they be clear conflicts of interest (Manchin) or inexplicable (Sinema).
There needs to be some ability to corral the process so two people (or whatever the percentage is) can’t stymie legislation the rest of the party wants.
I mean, 90% of people want government to negotiate drug prices, but we cannot do that because of a few people (and we know why). If something can’t be passed with THAT level of support, there is a reason, and we must find a way to sidestep it
MomSense
@geg6:
I can’t get into their heads either and I think it’s because their heads are just good old fashioned corruption. Manchin doesn’t want climate change legislation or Medicare to negotiate pharmaceutical prices because of his family’s business interests. Then there are the special interests in WV. Sinema is literally raising money off of preventing the tax increases and blocking the provisions that affect her business donors.
We’ll get some good things but I don’t think we will get the transformational change we want.
I don’t think Manchin wants voting rights to pass.
The Lodger
I think requiring a talking filibuster makes for great theater, but probably won’t go. What might work is a variation on the old-school filibuster that requires only a proportion of those present and voting at any time to invoke cloture. That means the Senate no longer has to be controlled by 41 members who only have to show up once, throw their monkey wrench, and then break for lunch.
germy
I don’t see what the big mystery is about Sinema.
She grew up poor and she vowed never to be poor again. She ignores random constituents who approach her with honest questions, but she spends weekends with big donors.
Manchin, we know he makes a fortune from extractive industries. Why would he vote for anything that would hurt the extractive industries.
I really don’t see what the mystery is here.
Omnes Omnibus
@germy: Who is Don Winslow and why should anyone give credence to his opinion?
Elizabelle
@marklar: Thank you, marklar. And fuck you too. (Kidding, kidding.)
germy
@The Lodger:
Is the talking filibuster Ted Cruz reading Green Eggs & Ham while stalling legislation?
patrick II
@SFAW:
Manchin won’t switch parties because he intends to run again and he is not nearly crazy enough to win a Republican primary. He is too conservative for me — but not nearly “conservative” (read fascist) enough for the modern Republican party and he voted to impeach Trump twice.
germy
@MomSense:
We’re so used to politicians who stay in office until they drop dead or grow senile. We assume Sinema is the same, but maybe “politics” was just something on her bucket list, and now she’s ready to move on to her next adventure. Maybe running a winery or being a full-time marathon athlete. She can certainly afford to now.
Anonymous At Work
I think Schumer should schedule a re-vote on the infrastructure bill over a minor technical change after whatever version of BBB is passed and show Manchin how much his negotiations with the GOP went. I think Manchin is/should be steamed that he gave his bargaining partners in the GOP whatever they wanted on the voting rights bill but ended up getting 0 GOP votes.
I think the only obstacle in Sinema and whether she has a plan on BBB negotiations that isn’t “upgrade next job to lobbyist”. She’s the real and only obstacle at this point. Manchin has principles that don’t match reality and can be shown that.
germy
Or one elderly justice passes away, and then women in Texas have to drive to New Mexico for an abortion.
trollhattan
Coal-export behemoth Australia has declared “Fuck you, Bruce” to GHG-reduction sissies everywhere by declaring coal to be an excellent thing going forward. Between just they and Saudi Arabia we’re keeping our global foot on the accelerator, thank you very much.
Nine of ten wombats disagree.
germy
@trollhattan:
Who is paying the tenth wombat?
patrick II
@geg6:
Requiring a talking filibuster might work for Manchin and Sinema — but it won’t work to pass a voting rights bill. Preventing voting rights is as important a Republican priority as strengthening is for Democrats. They won’t filibuster every bill that comes along — but anything having to do with winning elections — voting rights, gerrymandering, money in politics, will be filibustered.
hueyplong
@Elizabelle: That comment #9 speaks for me, albeit more elegantly and with fewer expletives than I had in mind.
Chris
@MomSense:
To the extent that there’s an actual ethos at work and they’re not just pure chaos agents or pure crooks, I think Sinemanchin are the kind of idiots who believe that centrism is a good thing in itself, and that it’s healthy and important for them to slam the brakes on the Democratic Party, prevent it from passing anything too big and transformative on a partisan basis, and compromise with Republicans. I have no idea if they’re consciously trying to tank the 2022 elections, but even if you pointed out to them that that’s what they’re doing, they’d tell you that’s not a bad thing, because a Republican Congress and Democratic President will force everybody to compromise and be reasonable and listen to each other just like the founding fathers wanted.
The Beltway and generic political nerddom in general is absolutely saturated with this kind of “get the politics out of politics” bien-pensants. (See also Breyer on the Supreme Court).
Jeffro
Whatever ‘they’ (the Dems) decide to do, I wish they would hurry. the. fuck. UP and start taking some up-or-down votes here. It’s nearly November 2021. The GQP has managed to drag out soooo many things for nearly a year. Wrap up BBB/reconciliation/whatever and let’s. go.
Kay
Normies don’t care at all about the filibuster so it’s really a risk-free move that pays huge immediate benefits.
They won’t care at all if it’s gone. I think a numerical majority process makes the most sense to people anyway.
Chris
@Anonymous At Work:
She’s not going to upgrade to lobbyist. The value of a person who’s pissed off every member of her party is absolutely nil to lobbyists, and besides, there’s no visibility. If she stays in the general political pool, it’ll be as a talking head. Same thing Trump was planning to do “when” he lost the 2016 election.
germy
@Kay:
There was a time when normies thought of the filibuster as a sort of heroic “Mr. Smith Goes To Washington” tactic, but I’m not sure that’s even true anymore.
Most people don’t pay attention, but Ted Cruz reading Green Eggs and Ham (or whatever he read) didn’t impress anyone.
Skepticat
@Spanky: You’re giving it away instead of gorging on it? And no, you’re not wrong but rather sensible.
lowtechcyclist
@Keith:
Fortunately, if we fail to get a handle on global warming before it’s too late, the end of history will arrive in just a few generations. No history, no ash heap, problems solved!
Jim Appleton
@Elizabelle: I want whatever you had for breakfast.
Kay
What if Sinema made a huge blunder? I love how “huge blunder” is never considered as motivating these people.
Normal people do that a lot. They do dumb, self destructive things. Sometimes they even destroy their own careers. Maybe she actually thought pretending to be a 70 year old male Republican former POW – becoming someone else– was a smart move, but it in fact was not and so now she’s scrambling to throw out some tax ….thing to salvage her dumb strategy.
Dupe1970
Reforms that might pass that would help would be:
-talking filibuster
-need 41 votes to maintain filibuster (rather than requiring 60 votes to break it)
-lowering vote threshold
-exempting certain items such as debt limit
Fair Economist
@germy:
The crazy thing is that she could be making good money as a speaker. First Dem Senator from AZ in ages, first openly bisexual Senator, marathoner, flashy and memorable style – she could have been quite in demand, and for a long time too.
Kay
What’s frustrating to rank and file Democrats is the delay. If you’re going to “carve out” voting rights from the filbuster then do it. Normal people do not accept that these decisions take so long, and they shouldn’t accept it. It’s ridiculous. No one else gets this endless hemming and hawing and coyness period in their work other than the US Senate. It’s an indulgence.
germy
@Fair Economist:
Maybe, as Kay said, she miscalculated.
Or maybe her dream is to accumulate enough money to leave politics and own her own vineyard and winery.
Fair Economist
@patrick II: The Republicans might be able to block voting right legislation with a talking filibuster, but it would be a lot more newsworthy and it would be hard for the media to ignore or to not blame them. So there would be political benefits.
Just Chuck
@Kay:
Bingo. The most exclusive club in the nation doesn’t like the unwashed masses telling them what to do, even when it’s their job.
MisterForkbeard
I see a lot of potential for filibuster reform purely on expanding voting rights. They’ll want to be careful about this, given that the GOP will declare ballot restriction measures “voting security”. Not that it’ll stop the GOP from doing it anyway, but wording the exception will be important.
But given that Manchin just spent 5 months trying to get Republicans on board and made a lot of concessions and got literally nothing for his support, I think that’s pretty obvious even to him.
@Kay: Yes. The delay is what’s driving frustration right now. It takes awhile to get things done, sure – but there’s no reason at all it should take this long. It’s basically just Manchin/Sinema fucking around and delaying things for no reason anyone can see, and dawdling while they can’t make up their minds. And the blame gets passed to the Democrats as a whole or to Biden.
Chris
@Kay:
I said at the beginning of the year that Democrats absolutely needed to hit the ground running and pass as much stuff as possible. First so that it would have as much time as possible between now and 2022 to work (especially when you’re talking about things like infrastructure where half the appeal is jobs and economic stimulus). Second so that you have as much time as possible between now and 2022 for the controversial stuff to get buried by new news cycles.
Sadly, absolutely nothing like that happened, and while you can quibble how much of it is the fault of the party as a whole versus how much is the fault of a few nihilistic holdouts, the voter base doesn’t make that distinction. And it’s going to fucking wreck us in 2022. Again.
Percysowner
@SFAW: A week or so ago Talking Point Memo also pointed out that switching parties does nothing to help Manchin and lot to hurt him. He’s a big deal as a Democrat, because they NEED him and they actually want to do things and so will compromise. The Republicans don’t care if the country burns, so Manchin’s insistence on making compromises doesn’t work. The Repubs just don’t compromise any more.
Plus, Manchin actually believes in more of what the Democrats want than what the Republicans want. The only conjecture I have heard is that he might become Independent and still caucus with the Democrats. That keeps his power and when he bucks the Party, there isn’t much to threaten him with.
geg6
@Brant:
Yeah well, good luck with that. I’ve been looking at West Virginia to seem in any way normal for over 60 years. Haven’t seen a sign of it yet.
trollhattan
@germy: Guessing he’s in the pocket (caution: marsupial humour) of Big Wombat.
trollhattan
@Kay:
Sinema and huge blunder certainly fit naturally as a pairing.
germy
@trollhattan:
ouch!
rikyrah
This is most important to me.
Hell muthaphuckin’ no.
Will not surrender to modern apartheid.
So Manchin and Sinema best buckle up. Because on this?
Nobody is phucking playing with them.
Percysowner
@Anonymous At Work: I have heard the theory that Sinema is taking the go lobbyist track, but for the life of me I can’t see how that works for her. To be a lobbyist people have to trust you to do what you say you will do in order to get their vote. Sinema has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is not trustworthy in any way, shape or form. Lobbyists can’t just lobby the people already on the side of the industry. They need to get others on board. The Republicans may listen to her, but I can’t see Democrats even allowing her in their offices.
I think her weird (to put it mildly) antics may mean that she won’t make and effective lobbyist and industries don’t pay for ineffective ones.
Van Buren
@SFAW: I’ll take that bet. He will switch when he calculates it will fuck progress the most.
rikyrah
@Spanky:
If it’s candy, kids won’t care.
I assure you, as long as it goes into their bag, they won’t care.
Brendan in NC
@Fair Economist: Correct. I was speaking more about filibuster reform. The House Progressive Caucus should be in Schumer’s ear, every day, reminding him “No BBB, no BIF”. I’d also threaten to reduce the BIF in proportion to the amount they’re trying to shave off the BBB.
The Moar You Know
No
And to phrase it properly, it has nothing to do with a filibuster, it’s the 60 vote requirement for invoking cloture.
Requiring a “talking filibuster” does not change that requirement.
trollhattan
@rikyrah:
They’re gonna assume it’s left over Christmas stuff from last year.
patrick II
@Fair Economist:
The Republicans will block election/voting legislation even if they would receive poor press. It is too important to them. But the press will not be that harmful to them. The conservative press will say Republicans are for “secure” elections while the mainstream press with “both sides” the issue — election security vs voting rights. The Republicans will keep money in politics, voter suppression, and gerrymandering so the effect of even poor press will be minimal in comparison. Either get rid of the filibuster for bills having to do with elections or plan on getting them filibustered and losing the bill. Making them talk will not stop them.
MomSense
@MisterForkbeard:
I honestly don’t think Manchin cares. He just wanted the time so he could get what he wanted. Delay has always been a very effective strategy.
Spanky
@trollhattan: What household in America can keep chocolate longer than a week, let alone 10 months?
Peale
@Brendan in NC: Senators really are the worst workforce I’ve ever seen. From any other job, they would be fired unless they were hired because they were nieces and nephews of the owner. Which is what they are. They are split between doddering old fools who are kept around out of sympathy, brats who shout “you’re not the boss of me” whenever you remind them to wear a tie to a sales meeting, and incompetent fools who think that the HR policy on promoting “work/life balance” means they can miss every deadline and not tell anyone about it because their donor is giving a violin recital.
rikyrah
@Brantl:
Manchin is LITERALLY the best that we can do in West Virginia. He is IT.
So, we just have to work to make him irrelevant in November 2022.
Now Sinema?
Arizona is an entirely different scenario.
We can and MUST to better.
That trifling trick has GOT TO GO.
Jeffro
@Percysowner: yeah, but the people who need her to keep causing chaos for Dems won’t tell her that…they’ll just keep stringing her along, wining and dining her, letting her apologize for rude lefties asking questions in airports, and so on.
They’ll keep their (relatively piddling) PAC donations coming in for as long as it works, and then they’ll drop her like a stone and move on to the next sucker and/or next tactic.
rikyrah
@germy:
Looking for the lie.
I see none
germy
@rikyrah:
No lie detected.
They’re paid spoilers. They’re doing what they’ve been paid to do.
Cameron
@Dupe1970: also getting rid of holds on presidential nominees.
Brendan in NC
@MomSense: Manchin’s endgame is for as little as possible to pass. He doesn’t care, because he thinks his seat will always be safe. He’s not alone, there are a few others content to let he and Sinema take the heat. That being said; I’m in the process of working to get a Democrat elected as Senator here in NC. That’s how I can get back at the dynamic duo.
rikyrah
@Brendan in NC:
North Carolina
Pennsylvania
Florida
Ohio
Giving money to help make that happen.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: The blunder theory seems most likely to me too.
“Whoopsie! Guess I can’t pull off being Meghan McCain’s dad after all. My bad!”
It’s so ludicrous that people are casting about for other explanations.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
She could still be Meghan McCain if she writes a book called Bad Democrat.
lowtechcyclist
@rikyrah:
Well, we’re stuck with her and Manchin until 2024, assuming neither of them dies or quits. And for them to die or quit would be a bad thing, since the Republican governors of their states would pick their replacements. (In AZ, the governor would have to pick a Democrat, but he’d have free rein to pick any Arizona Dem, so he could probably find one worse than Sinema.)
Cite.
Betty
@Brendan in NC: But no one will be safe, especially Schumer’s position as Majority Leader.
Elizabelle
Interesting little article in the WaPost today: (one of several; will share the others shortly):
WaPost:
Sen. Manchin says he’s ‘totally out of sync’ with fellow Democrats
Betty
@Kay: I agree. I think she vastly underestimated how much reaction her behavior would get. She has animated her own voters against her.
topclimber
@Brendan in NC: Glad to see some jackals are looking to expand our Senate majority, not obsess on how we are most surely going to lose it in 2022.
Re: talking filibuster. I thought that in the old days, a senator could keep the floor indefinitely, and could pass the ball off to a colleague until refreshed for another round of BS–but only twice.
So, 50 GQP senators x 8 hours max talk per speech x 2 speeches = 800 hours. Keep the Senate in session 24/7 for five weeks straight and you have busted the filibuster.
What did I get wrong?
Kay
@Chris:
They all know dragging it out makes it easier to attack, and will hurt all of them, Left Right and Center, yet they cannot seem to move any faster, and people perceive the delay as vaguely “corrupt”, knowing that it really doesn’t take that long to “decide” and the hemming and hawing is a tactic. I smiled when Manchin said he wanted to “pause” and maybe possibly pass something next year. I bet he does. It’s the only honest thing he’s said.
What if they just had normal work rules? Norms? One of them is if you don’t like the plan you have to have another plan. Sinema and Manchin don’t have one. Why can’t they do their work? Why is she just now putting together her tax plan? She had years.
Ruckus
The two malcontents are either republicans at heart – Manchin, or looney tunes – guess who.
How do you have a logical discussion with either? My guess is that we have people in the senate who can speak republican and quite possibly lunatic and may be able to get through to them. I believe that Manchin still wants to be a senator, have no idea what loony tunes wants, and I’d say it’s a good bet she doesn’t actually know either. It seems that both of them have their running shoes on, ready to bolt at a moment’s notice.
Brendan in NC
@Betty: They don’t care, because they’re absolutely convinced that they’ll be re-elected. That’s what they care about. However, I do think that, regardless of outcome, Schumer needs to go as Leader. I’d love to see Klobuchar as Leader. If for no other reason that to watch her fling staplers at McConnell and Manchin’s heads on a daily basis.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
So great that he’s talking about himself again. Just endlessly fascinating, his inner thoughts.
He talks too much. Where’s the voting rights bill he promised a year ago? Is he still lobbying his ten imaginary GOP senator friends? He’s a blowhard. He’s all talk.
Brendan in NC
@topclimber: While moaning is cathartic, I’m in a state where I can make a difference; so why not work towards it. You’re right about the filibuster, and it would benefit everyone.
O. Felix Culpa
@germy:
That’s what they’re doing now.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris: I think that this explains a lot of what they are thinking. Unlike many here, I do not think they are corrupt in a pay for play sense. But toxic centrism plus campaign contributions can have an effect.
Elizabelle
And, Alexandra Petri takes aim at the senior senator from West Virginia today. Were it not West Virginia, you would have to wonder how long a Democratic politician could stand this type of ridicule. (Richly deserved, of course. Richly.)
WaPost: How to talk to your grandchildren about Joe Manchin and the climate
Brendan in NC
@Kay: He’s trying to run out the clock on any legislation. He doesn’t want to give his own party any wins, because they might win more seats; and he’d become irrelevant. Which is why I’m more concerned that Leader(?) Schumer has been so quiet.
Bill Arnold
@germy:
She’s making plenty of enemies along the way, one or more of whom just might be inspired to indulge in a hobby project to make her miserable the rest of her life.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Tell me about it
Ruckus
@Kay:
My thought is that there are 100 senators who want their own slice of the pie and ability to go home and run on that. I’d bet this is a bigger concern to most of them than getting a good deal done. So, a limited pie (because – insert your favorite deity – damn I need my grift and have to be reelected) and likely at least 80 people fighting for what is good for them over everything else. Don’t we have an 88 yr old who is running again for office? Must be a tough gig if an 88 yr old can do it…. I’m 72 and I want no part of it, besides I’d bet I’d get arrested for punching at least a couple of them. Likely with a knee to a sensitive area but still.
germy
@O. Felix Culpa:
Yes, RBG died, was replaced by Amy Coathanger, and now women are driving from Texas to New Mexico for health care.
Almost Retired
It seems like Cable News’ equivalent of the small town diner interviews for Republicans is the outdoor focus group of Democrats socially-distanced at picnic tables. And they are almost as ridiculous.
Invariably, there’s that one participant who says something to the effect of “I’m not voting ever again because the Democrats haven’t kept their promises.”
Obviously, they seek these idiots out for better television, because a couple picnic tables full of Democratic voters who have nuanced views of the challenge would be boring, in the eyes of MSNBC/CNN segment producers. But this kind of bullshit programming certainly encourages the “OMG, the Reichstag is burning” crowd.
Cacti
When the postmortem is written on the American Republic, I suspect a lot of ink will go to the corruption, fecklessness, and institutional malaise of the Senate, as the country crumbled around it.
trollhattan
@Elizabelle: “Joe Manchin loves Ted Cruz. Pass it on.”
“Everybody hates Ted Cruz.”
Al Franken
.
Bill Arnold
@Elizabelle:
I’m fairly sure Mitch McConnell’s mood would improve, and we would see him smiling a lot more.
Cacti
@germy: Stephen Breyer seems to be following the RBG “I’ll just live forever” plan.
James E Powell
Is this some kind of a joke?
Cacti
Sinema just straight up sold out. She ran as a liberal and promptly shit canned all of her previous positions once someone waved some real money under her nose.
She’s the type of politician who confirms the belief of non-voters that it’s all a waste of time.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@lowtechcyclist: Well, I mean, if we don’t get a handle on global warming there will be plenty of ash heaps. We’ll have a world full of ash heaps.
Ksmiami
@Cameron: a one time carve out even if we have to build statues to the greatness of Sinemanchin…
Another Scott
I’m not ready to go doom and gloom yet. I think Biden and Schumer would be talking very differently if there were no chance of getting the voting bills through the Senate (which indeed means changes to the filibuster/cloture system).
I’m reminded that the threshold was 66 votes until 1975, when the Democrats had 61 senators. It’s obvious that the number can be changed by the majority to allow them to get things done. The Senate is a legislative body – it’s not designed to be a place where a tiny minority can prevent the government from functioning.
BrennanCenter (from August):
I don’t know how they’re going to fix it, but I expect that they will. It’s a solvable problem.
We’ll see.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ksmiami
@Spanky: meekly raises hand
MomSense
I just had to run an errand and stupidly listened to the news. Of course this was covered as what does it mean if Biden doesn’t get a deal before his overseas trip? Then they went on to this is about his legacy. This is when I yelled the fuck it is at my radio. Jesus tap dancing christ could they for once talk about who loses if this doesn’t pass? It isn’t Biden’s legacy. This is about parents who can’t afford child care. This is about people who could take community college classes and go on to continued higher education or a better job. This is about all of us who are trying to figure out how to care for our parents while we still have to work and take care of homes and children. This is about our motherfucking future on planet earth. Our largest city has to declare a natural emergency with two days of heavy rain? This is about decades of deferred maintenance on out existing infrastructure and the fact that we have the shittiest phone and internet service of the wealthy nations. This is about jobs for people who desperately need good jobs.
I just can’t with our goddamned bullshit media anymore.
Omnes Omnibus
@Another Scott: I agree with your take.
CaseyL
@Cacti: Non-voters need to get their heads out of their asses, then, because they have apparently paid no attention whatsoever to American politics ever, at all. They have no idea how anything works. (Remember them complaining how the Democrats “did nothing” with their Senate “supermajority” in 2008?)
In this instance, Sinema and Manchin have done done thing and one thing alone that justifies electing them in 2020: They ensured that Democrats, rather than Republicans, have a majority in the Senate. That means Schumer rather than McConnell is the Leader, and sets the agenda, and schedules votes, and gets nominees confirmed.
If non-voters think that makes no difference, then I would question whether they are capable of dressing themselves without professional assistance.
ALurkSupreme
@MomSense: Yes, indeed. That was a righteous rant worthy of Cole himself. Brava.
bluegirlfromwyo
@SFAW: Being a democrat is how Manchin stands out in WV. Otherwise he’s just another quasi-“moderate” republican who gets primaried for not being enough of a conservative jerk. He won’t switch parties.
Ksmiami
@Chris: yep. Schumer needs to tell Manchin and Sinema to stop fucking around
Ksmiami
@Cacti: agreed- were in pre dictatorship Rome rn…
Tony Gerace
@geg6: The sad thing is that these two are not idiots. Each of them is intelligently maximizing the magnitude of their legal bribes from lobbyists. Manchin and Sinema represent the corruption of our system manifested in human form.
Martin
The Jan 6 commission is instrumental to moving on the filibuster. You cannot maintain a supermajority process when assholes like Mo Brooks are out there organizing a coup. That will become evident to Manchin and Sinema as more testimony is collected. We may not see it publicly for some time, but you can bet the threats are being shared inside Congress.
Apparently we have a conceptual agreement on a wealth tax and I cannot express how much of a tidal shift this is going to be both politically and economically. It may be modest, but it opens a hell of a lot of new doors to addressing various social problems. Basically the federal govt gets to rent seek on the rent seekers. It treats US currency as something that needs to perform work (which is the whole point of issuing it). You can’t just park it. That might be painful for a bit, but it moves the feedback cycles in the right direction.
UncleEbeneezer
@Elizabelle: I’m definitely with you on that. I don’t know why people can’t understand that the speed and priority of movement on this stuff is under the control of Manchin and Sinema and there’s not a whole lot Biden, Schumer, Pelosi or other Dems can do to change that. Manchin has expressed openness to various filibuster reforms in the recent past, so that gives me hope. But I’m sure as hell not gonna jump into the hand-wringing threads about the process. I have enough stress/anxiety as it is!
lowtechcyclist
With Sinema, who the hell knows?
There are some questions I wish someone would ask Manchin.
If no, then that explains why he votes against any solutions.
If yes, then:
2. He’s rejected CEPP as too nice to the utilities, and rejected the carbon tax presumably as too mean to everybody. What’s his Goloilocks solution?
Also:
3. Does he have grandchildren? What does he think their world will be like in 50 years?
Because that’s where it hits home for me. My son is fourteen years old. He and his cohort will live with the consequences of what we do, or fail to do, in these next few years. The same would be true of Manchin’s grandkids. I don’t mind if Manchin wants to doom his own grandchildren, but he’s got no business doing the same thing to my kid.
But they’re all going to be in the same world, whether we save or damn it in this short window of time.
That’s the conversation I’d like to have with Joe Manchin.
Another Scott
@Cacti: Citation needed.
Here’s her campaign announcement video from 2017 (3:21)
That’s not a video of someone running as a “liberal”.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ksmiami
@rikyrah: I figure if they want a fight, we end them.
Geminid
@Cacti: I don’t think Sinema ran for Senate as a liberal. She joined the notorious Blue Dog Caucus when she entered Congress in January 2013, and I believe she was still a Blue Dog when she won the Democratic Senate nomination in 2018.
I guess, though, you could say that as Senator Sinema’s loyalty to the President’s agenda falls below the standard of the current 19 member Blue Dog Caucus.
lowtechcyclist
@UncleEbeneezer:
This. Even Biden said the other day that with a 50-50 Senate, we have fifty Presidents.
But nonetheless, it’s been irresponsible of Manchin and Sinema both to refuse to be specific for so long about what their problems were with the BBB bill. It’s their job to say what they want in a clear manner so that negotiations can proceed from here. Instead, they fucked around all summer.
dopey-o
have i told you how much i like you? come sit by me…..
UncleEbeneezer
@lowtechcyclist: Agreed, they suck. I think I just accepted the fact that things would proceed very slowly months ago when it became crystal clear that neither of them were going to prove me wrong. So now I’m just happy that things are still proceeding at all. Do I wish they’d move faster? Of course. But I’m saving my despair for when Filibuster Reform, Voting Rights, BBB/Infrastructure are officially dead, and they aren’t yet. I also can’t dive into despair because frankly, things are playing out about the way I expected them to.
Omnes Omnibus
@UncleEbeneezer: Yes, we have no control over how fast things are going. That they are still in play is a good thing.
germy
Another Scott
The sausage is almost done. TheHill:
The timeline has always been the big economic plans first, then voting rights, etc. The system is slow, but it’s still working.
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@Another Scott: Woo hopefully hoo.
jl
I think Biden should resume his effort to publicly jawbone Manchin and Sinema to start with. He did that a while back when Harris did a tour of WV, and I think AZ. Seems to me that all you have to do is repeat Manchin and Sinema’s most aggressive statement they ever made in favor of your proposal. Since their statements have been like a fractal space filling curve: that is they’ve said everything on every policy, you should be able to find something.
I don’t understand why the WH hasn’t been doing that. After Manchin said he’d go for $4 trillion for the reconciliation, I’d always call him ‘4 trillion Manchin’ and I’d find an excuse to work him in every time I opened my mouth. Like so:
“The unity of the Congressional Democrats is amazing, it’s historic. We have $4 trillion Manchin and $6 trillion Sanders for reconciliation. And it’s not going to be the corporate give-away we had to agree to with the bipartisan, this is real old-time US government that gives something back to people for their tax dollars
I’m inviting $4 trillion Manchin and $6 trillion Sanders over for dinner to talk.”
Trump should have taught the Dems something on the only thing he was good at that wasn’t a total swindle: effective marketing.
JMG
Big Democratic legislation taking a long time to pass Congress in an unappetizing process is the norm, not a sign of a party or President on the skids. The ACA took over a year with much bigger majorities than Biden has. It took the landslide of 1964 to get Medicare passed and it was first proposed by Truman. The circumstances of the New Deal were unique, and only lasted four years.
As for the headline topic of this thread, IMO the filibuster will never be altered, let alone ended, ever. It allows 100 Senators what they most want — complete freedom from accountability and responsibility.
jl
@jl: And I’d pronounce “$4 trillion Manchin” as “$4 trillion Mansion” And find out a way to work in his yacht and his coal company. Let’s see….
“I’m inviting $4 trillion Mansion and $6 trillion Sanders to WH to talk, or maybe $4 trillion Mansion will invite us over to his yacht. Maybe he’ll invite the Congressional leadership, I hear you could hold a convention in that thing. It’s vast on a Biblical scale, what they tell me.”
And
“$4 trillion Mansion shows you the difference between a Republican and Democrat. $4 trillion Mansion as we all well know is a pretty big coal and energy baron, like a lot of the Republican crongress crooks. But look at the public spirit of $4 trillion Mansion. The GOP PR hacks say we want to eat the rich, but actually we value their contributions to society.”
So:
“I’m very eager to talk with $4 trillion Mansion about his talking filibuster proposal. I’m just mentioning that because I’ve just contacted is office to come over the WH to talk, like I do every week. $4 trillion Mansion is busy, but I keep hoping he gets back to me”
I’d also constantly start and stop by talking about what’s in the bill. The $ would be sandwiched in between
Edit: I’m not saying jawboning those two grifters would Solve All Problems. If you could get some commitment from them, then the next question is whether it’s only those two, or are there a few other Dem Senators that want the filibuster to keep themselves from having to make uncomfortable votes. I don’t think we know the answer.
Cameron
@Ksmiami: Sounds like a fair exchange, given what’s at stake.
germy
@jl:
Comity!
jl
@germy: I rise to thank germy, the distinguished gentleperson from the Balloon-Juice commentariate, the most distinguished deliberative blog in the world, and my friend and colleague, for their gracious support!
Edited: changed to gender neutral because I don’t know who germy is. My excuse is that Senators are almost all filthy rich white male geezer hacks, so the mind just automatically goes that way.
Edit: some are not calendar geezers, but still geezers in mind and spirit.
Kay
@Martin:
Which shouldn’t suprise anyone. He lied in the National Review interview. He gave the interview to deny being an insurrectionist, and in the course of denying told another lie which was caught immediately.
Of course they plan on trying it again.
sdhays
@lowtechcyclist: I presume you’re not a multi-millionaire. The more money a person has, the more likely to believe that they and their descendants will be able to weather whatever problems come along.
Breaking that ingrained thinking for huge scale issues like climate change is a challenge. In their minds, even if it’s not conscious, they’re thinking “well, little Johnny will just move to New Zealand” or whatever.
germy
@sdhays:
Or join Elon Musk in space.
germy
@jl:
Jim Jordan always reminded me of an angry grandpa.
JMG
Again, I don’t wish to be a downer, but I just don’t see how a country where 25 percent of the people won’t take a vaccine that’ll save their lives is going to deal with climate change, an issue requiring all people to actually experience added expense and inconvenience to address.
jl
Re billionaire tax, I think Biden should remind us constantly, every time he opens his mouth, that it is puzzling that the same multi billionaires who brag that they have no clue how much money they have, because they have so much in so many place, can also claim that they carefully track every penny of marginal tax paid.
Shit, the lower limit for paying any billionaire tax at all is far higher than anything one human being, even a Newton and an Archimedes put together, could understand.
And I’d also constantly wonder in public how come these CEO masters of the universe keep saying that they don’t know exactly what their company is doing when they testify to Congress. What’s up? They’re no spring chickens, but seem to have trouble learning on the job, after decades of doing, well, whatever they do up their in the their big suites… If they don’t know much about what their company does. Maybe picking out monograms for their fancy clothes and trinkets. Whatever, I don’t know, maybe somebody could tell me.
I’m sending my CV to the WH for the position of Czar of Public WH Snark.
lowtechcyclist
@UncleEbeneezer:
I don’t do despair, but once again, we’re putting off the day when we finally address climate change. There’s no denying that things look a lot more grim than when it seemed like the bill might contain some sort of serious attempt to reckon with that.
So now our hope is that the bill contains enough good stuff that we can persuade voters to preserve our House majority and expand our Senate majority in 2022, and get another opportunity to deal with it then. That’s an awfully damn big gamble to take with the fate of the Earth.
Room for hope? Yes. Room for optimism? AYFKM. We’re in the danger zone, and getting deeper into it by the day. There’s really no escaping that fact.
jl
@germy: Hey bud, you didn’t return my gracious acknowledgment. I’m emailing in a filibuster of everything that has your name on it. In addition, you owe me money for the slight. Send over one of your contributors pronto.
TriassicSands
I think both Manchin and Sinema are too irrational for us to know if a filibuster change can be found that allows passage of legislation that provides adequate protection for voting rights. I wouldn’t bet on it.
Listening to their justifications so far (on everything), leaves me with the definite impression that they are both corrupt idiots. Manchin’s tiresome insistence on “ten Republicans” is so absurd that it’s hard to see how he maintains a straight face. Anyone who can ignore climate change, can ignore the threat to democracy posed by Trump and the GOP.
Sinema comes across as a narcissistic flake with no firm beliefs about anything beyond her own specialness.
There is gloom and there is doom and there is reality and sometimes they are one and the same.
geg6
@Tony Gerace:
It doesn’t take intelligence to do that. Witness TFG. They are, all three of them, stupid but cunning.
MisterForkbeard
@MomSense: I DO think Manchin was hoping that he could delay things and tank Biden a bit so that he’d have a lot more leverage to get whatever he wanted. It certainly worked.
lowtechcyclist
Yeah, they probably can’t envision the day when things break down to the extent that their money no longer has meaning.
Citizen_X
*ahem* police *ahem
Ruckus
@James E Powell:
Actually no it’s not. Using the word victims is what you call someone who died from a telephone pole falling on their home, or them. Someone purposely shooting them is like saying the gun went off by accident. It didn’t, it was murder, in my mind cold blooded murder, he did take a gun across state lines so he could shoot someone, and they weren’t attacking him, his life wasn’t in danger and their’s would have been in far less danger if he hadn’t shown up.
Kay
@JMG:
Well, they’re going to “deal with it”, whether they like it or not. Just like with covid, climate doesn’t care about their objections. My youngest believes they know it on some level, and that’s why we get these insane shows of force, wild threats and really irrational behavior.
germy
@jl:
Sorry, I was out of town running a marathon.
Zelma
@Peale:
My son moved from being a House staffer to being a Senate staffer. Quite a culture shock and not a pleasant one. I do believe his description is weird.
nonrev321
Qualified NO, I don’t think it will happen. I hope it does.
Ruckus
@MomSense:
You lasted a lot longer than I did. I told the executive officer of the ship I was stationed on, on my last day, when he told me I’d be back in the navy, my kind always comes back, that I’d shovel cow shit every day for the rest of my life before I’d come back and work for people like him. The vast majority of the media is like that, I’d rather shovel cow shit than bother reading their crap. And at least shoveling cow shit is providing a necessary service to the world. All the major media idiots provide is a way for the wealthy to protect their ability to get even wealthier and they use bullshit to do that. A lot of shoveling needs to be done.
nonrev321
@Elizabelle: Admire the firey spirit, but his point is valid. I’ll feel better if I see the AG take action
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@JMG: Those 25% have a plan for how to deal with climate change. Giant walls around the borders of the US with razor wire and guns to keep people further south from flooding north as their homes become uninhabitable. Other than that, the good Lord would never let them suffer.
Ruckus
@lowtechcyclist:
Part of the problem is that people like Joe Manchin live in the past. Mostly the Scrooge McDuck comic book past, where one guy with enough money to play in greenbacks was the basic it. Now everyone on the Forbes 400 is a billionaire. And people are still going hungry, let alone the damage to the environment that we’ve all been a part of. The world will never be completely clean, environment wise because more bodies make more things that are not good for it. But we can do a lot better, and to do that we need to do dramatically more than we are.
Martin
@Kay: There’s a photo taken inside the Jan 6 war room that shows a professional videographer present. I’m wondering if the committee already has that video.
Juju
@Spanky: Go ahead. Do it!!
Kay
@Martin:
Liz Cheney didn’t join this to exonerate them. She knows she has something. Prosecutors don’t win 99% of their cases because they’re incredibly talented at trying cases. They win 99% of their cases because they pick which cases to pursue.
Antonius
” Do you think it’s doable?”
No.
Antonius
@Spanky: No.
rikyrah
@Kay:
She had spent so much time not saying what she objected to, I think taxes just flew out her mouth, and now she actually has to come up with a plan.
Cynic
Unless the Democrats also expand the Supreme Court to 13, which they can do through legislation, they are wasting everyone’s time as any voting rights bill they pass would be gutted by the Roberts Court.
rikyrah
@Kay:
yep…bring along his 10 GOP friends …
or STFU and vote for what’s been brought to the table.
He really doesn’t grasp that, in this case, performative bullshyt isn’t going to get him anything. He has to phucking put up the GOP votes, or STFU and pass the legislation.
Ruckus
@JMG:
I think there are enough congress members who see that nothing being done is very bad for the people that voted for them, while maybe just not good for those whose checkbooks have overflowing balances. Because while those balances might go down a bit, they would still be overflowing. One of the things that has done very good for the democratic party is the small donor ActBlue outfit. How many congress people have ActBlue to thank for their elections to congress? The answer is greater than zero. We have power as a group that we wouldn’t without this kind of support. And the wealthy rightwing knows it. They have been able to win with a relatively small investment. Now they have to go in deep to get there. I think it’s also one reason they don’t care if we aren’t in a booming economy, they do really good either way.
Ksmiami
@rikyrah: at this point fuck them both. Take the loss and move on.
Keith
@Elizabelle: You seem pleasant. When fascists gain power, they don’t give it back. That is what is at stake here. Sorry if your liberal sensibilities can’t handle that. Despite what you appear to think, it can happen here.
Ruckus
@JMG:
The thing is, to make significant changes to the environment does not take much disruption to most people. It does take a lot to make the first decision, which is that climate change is real. I think enough people, other than the hard core right wing, whose members don’t have rear view mirrors because if they did they could see the direction that we are going – they only seem to be able to see the past. That may be where their heads seem to be located, a small, dark, smelly place that shows them the nothing/shit they like. For everyone else the evidence is available and many countries have acknowledged it and are making the necessary changes. Being stuck in the 1920s, before the 29 crash, is a problem for a lot of folks in the US. And yet change is still happening.
Ksmiami
@MisterForkbeard: he’s such a colossal dick . I hope he has to eat a bag of them…
Ksmiami
@Keith: then we kill them… I mean all bets are off once they steal our vote
Ruckus
@Citizen_X:
Most police do actually show up for work for a reasonable number of hours per year. Congress? Not so fucking much.
Just because cops show up is not enough though, many/most are terrible at the job most of us think they should be doing, unless you think being bigoted assholes who shoot unarmed people they don’t like is good police work.
JPL
@Keith: I can’t remember which book, maybe Death of Democracy, mentioned that in Berlin the Jewish population felt safe, because it was only the eastern (border) jews that were in danger. They, themselves, were the good Jews. Democrats are losing the Hispanic vote, because they were the good ones who followed the rules.
I’m scared
Geminid
@Ruckus: I wish Democrats would pitch clean energy measures as job creation initiatives, because they are.
Ruckus
@Geminid:
Agreed.
There is much to be done, and it needs to start about at least 20 yrs ago, but we had a war to wage, we didn’t have the time or money to spend on the future, the rich always think they can buy their way out of any situation and that money makes the world go round. Mis/Mal informed assholes.
Ruckus
@Geminid:
There is now a new way to make steel with out using coal to make coke, which is how steel has been made forever. It uses hydrogen and is much cleaner. Should make better steel as well.
There is more to the story.
trollhattan
@Ruckus:
The mill I worked at had electric furnaces but smelted scrap, not ore. It wasn’t what you could call clean (it’s a dirty, dirty industry) but in theory the electricity could have come from any source (hydro in this particular instance).
ETA fun fact: 58% of CALISO’s electricity supply is currently renewables, mostly solar, then wind plus the others. One of Diablo Canyon’s reactors must be offline because the nuke portion is only 2%/ 487MW.
Baud
@Geminid:
Every time I see Biden, he does just that.
Keith
@Ksmiami: Unfortunately, they have most of the guns.
Geminid
@Baud: He does. There may be more reinforcement of that theme by Democrats. Process stories seem to dominate media coverage, though. We may do better as those jobs start having a real impact among working people, and start putting money in green energy companies’ hands.
I remember reading a 2020 editorial in a Charleston, South Carolina, newspaper about an initiative by Democratic Congressman Joe Cunningham to ease trump administration restrictions on wind power projects. Basically, the writer said that wind power was good for business. Cunningham lost the upcoming election to Republican Nancy Mace. That paper probably endorsed Mace, but I don’t think the editorial board’s appraisal of wind power changed.
billcinsd
@patrick II: Didn’t he threaten to leave at least the Dem party if there was too much environmental stuff in the BBB
Ruckus
@trollhattan:
I started 60 yrs ago working in industry that made stuff out of metals. I just worked Friday and Monday for 13 hrs making some very high precision pins for an injection mold out of steel at 55c hardness. There are some far better metals out there now than ever, but we still make them the same way we did 60 or more years ago. The new ways are better and better for the planet. They will likely never be completely clean. And fossil fuels will still be needed for some things. But we can go a very long way towards making the world a better place and still enjoy a lot of the things that make living now better than even when I was born. We’ve done that with vaccines, in less than a year we had 3 vaccines for a new disease. If we could get the 25-35% that are morons to actually believe their own eyes or the eyes of the not morons around them and get those who think that money is the holly grail to grow the fuck up, we might just make a go of it. I’m too old to hold my breath for that long though. So I’m going to muddle through the best I can and hope that those younger than me can have a cleaner and better world than it is now.
The renewable electrical generation business is not doing all that bad, and could be better if we had more of the type of systems a lot of Europe use, instead of like say CA where there are 2 electrical supply companies, PG&E and SCE. I believe those are the only 2 suppliers in the state and because they are big and powerful, they control a lot more of life than they should.
Ruckus
@billcinsd:
Yes.
He makes very decent bank in the coal business. It’s in his own selfish interest to not make any waves on ecology at the moment. And one thing we know about republicans or even republican light adherents, and that is that their own self interest comes first and foremost.
Elizabelle
@Keith: What’s that I hear? Goalposts being moved?
A lecture that fascism could happen here? Why yes, it could. I am not aware of any jackal who believes otherwise.
However, your comment was that Democrats deserved the ash heap if they could not forestall that event.
As did, I guess, all those swept up in the maelstrom of WWII. They couldn’t stop it. They deserved their fate. See how that works?
@JPL: A lot of Jews identified as German citizens as well. They were slow to realize their countrymen and women could turn on them so viciously.
ThresherK
Anyone else lazily glaze to the second mention of <b>Kurtz</b> and wondering why Hacktacular Howie was mentioned here <i>before</i> reading more thoroughly?
Geminid
@Ruckus: For all the deficiencies the Texas electrical grid has shown, Texas’ loose regulatory structure has made for a robust wind power industry. It probably helps that the Texas and it’s electrical market have been growing so fast. If you take your rail trip east next year you’ll roll by a lot of wind farms, especially in Texas.
New Mexico has some catching up to do. They passed a good clean power plan two years ago, but they are only now scaling up. The goal is to shut down the big Four Corners coal generation plant by 2031. I hope to get out there sometime next year, and see what those folks are doing with all that sun and wind they have.
patrick II
@billcinsd:
He did threaten to leave the Democratic pary — but to become an independent. Negotiating ploy or real threat? Who knows but Manchin. But it seems to have worked.
Keith
@Elizabelle: Is this putting words in people’s mouths an effective strategy for you in arguments (and dropping f-bombs at the drop of a hat)? It really is rather pitiful and is indicative of a stunted intellect.
The Democratic Party as an institution would deserve that fate because they have the power to stop the crazies and if they fail to use that power it would be the culmination of years of cowardly fecklessness. The German Jews and Liberals were powerless to stop the rise of the Nazis in the end and were clearly innocent victims. The Germans who actually did have the power to stop Hitler, the Conservatives and the Monarchists, are another story entirely. Their world was destroyed too, but it is difficult to have much sympathy for them.
Ksmiami
@Keith: but we have all the technology and chemicals…
Elizabelle
@Keith:
Get over yourself.
Pie: would you rather be lemon meringue or cherry? Or are you sock puppet pie? Adios.
Another Scott
@James E Powell:
Popehat apparently agrees.
Twitter is terrible for explaining nuance and for sensible, clear conversation.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ruckus
@Geminid:
I understand that TX has more installed operating solar than any other state as well. All they have to do now is figure out that last few miles of delivery, take their heads out of where the sun don’t shine and join the national grid so they don’t have what happened with their power grid last time when it what, melted.
Ruckus
@Geminid:
If I take my rail trip next year I’ll be a bit north of TX, my plan is to take the Trans Canadian from Vancouver to Montreal and then the train down to DC to see the sights and museums and the things like the Wall. After all it was the war that I served during, even if I didn’t shoot any one or get shot at. I’m retired, I deserve to see a bit of the important bits of the country that I volunteered to work 4 yrs for and hopefully not die for. It went better for me than the 58+K named on the Wall. At the least I owe them a visit.
cain
@Elizabelle:
Such an infuriating statement – does he not see that the GOP has gone off the rails? I mean look at the laws they are putting in there. They are rolling back so many things, but on top of that they aren’t improving any other part of the country. It’s just a nihilistic approach.
They’ll continue to try to pare down rights because that’s the path they are forced to go on. I have no idea what discussions Manchin has with GOP people.