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You are here: Home / Politics / Biden Administration in Action / Monday Morning Open Thread: Rise and… *Try* to Shine?

Monday Morning Open Thread: Rise and… *Try* to Shine?

by Anne Laurie|  November 8, 20216:55 am| 237 Comments

This post is in: Biden Administration in Action, Dog Blogging, Open Threads, Proud to Be A Democrat

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Literally woke up to this. Apparently feeding time does not recognize daylight savings time. pic.twitter.com/EDOMMOxVYU

— Jenny Lawson (@TheBloggess) November 7, 2021

Time changes and early sunsets hit some of us harder than others…

The Bipartisan Infrastructure Deal will help ease inflationary pressures, lowering costs for working families.pic.twitter.com/FOcchsNWgN

— Joe Biden (@JoeBiden) November 8, 2021

The U.S. has added 5.6 million jobs since President @JoeBiden took office.

This recovery was sparked by the American Rescue Plan putting money directly in the hands of working families and launching one of the fastest mass vaccination campaigns ever.

— Kamala Harris (@KamalaHarris) November 7, 2021

Democrats continue delivering For The People.

The momentous steps we took will create millions of good-paying jobs and rebuild our crumbling infrastructure by:

?Repairing roads & bridges;
?Investing in public transit & rail;
?Expanding broadband;
?Delivering clean water.

— Nancy Pelosi (@TeamPelosi) November 7, 2021

Speaker Pelosi to House Democrats: good paying jobs are on the way thanks to the infrastructure bill; “to #BuildBackBetter, we must do more to address the climate crisis, promote equity and ensure that everyone has the opportunity to work… the week of November 15th we will act.” pic.twitter.com/HcbkvkYtRI

— Christine Pelosi (@sfpelosi) November 8, 2021

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Previous Post: « COVID-19 Coronavirus Updates: Sunday / Monday, Nov. 7-8
Next Post: Okay, the Ads are Gone, Now What? »

Reader Interactions

237Comments

  1. 1.

    Mustang Bobby

    November 8, 2021 at 6:59 am

    Good morning, Friends. A bit of shameless self-promotion: Today is the eighteenth anniversary of the launch of my blog, Bark Bark Woof Woof. So far so good.

  2. 2.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 7:00 am

    @Mustang Bobby:

    Good morning and congratulations!  That’s quite an achievement.

  3. 3.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 7:01 am

    What’s the status of the CBO reports? Isn’t that the latest excuse of the so-called moderates on the BBB?

  4. 4.

    debbie

    November 8, 2021 at 7:01 am

    If I may borrow from Greta Thunberg, the GOP is the Party of Blah, Blah, Blah.

  5. 5.

    Immanentize

    November 8, 2021 at 7:02 am

    @Mustang Bobby: good job, MB!

  6. 6.

    Immanentize

    November 8, 2021 at 7:05 am

    My one and only comment on people wanting daylight savings time all year —

    Why not choose standard time for all year? It is the time frame most closely associated with sun-time. That is, it is at least based on the sun being at its height at noon. Thank the railroads for time zones.

    So why pick the even more fake version of daylight savings time? Do you just like the name better? The solution to your woes, if you must choose one time frame only every year, is to vary work and school hours under standard time, no?

  7. 7.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 7:05 am

    Via Reddit, crowd crushes and fluid dynamics. Not for the squeamish.
    https://i.imgur.com/TBSzETD.gifv

  8. 8.

    debbie

    November 8, 2021 at 7:06 am

    @Mustang Bobby:

    Wow, that’s forever in blog years! Congratulations!

  9. 9.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 7:08 am

    @debbie:

    The blog is a Boomer in blog years.

  10. 10.

    Elizabelle

    November 8, 2021 at 7:09 am

    @Mustang Bobby: 

    WTG, MB. The big 18. Blog is old enough to vote.

    Good morning, jackals.

  11. 11.

    debbie

    November 8, 2021 at 7:09 am

    @Immanentize:

    I’m with you. The sun has got to be overhead at noon, goddammit.

  12. 12.

    debbie

    November 8, 2021 at 7:09 am

    @Baud:

    Just heard: in 7 to 10 days.

  13. 13.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 7:10 am

    @debbie:

    It’s High Noon. Not High 11 am.

  14. 14.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 7:10 am

    @debbie:

    Thanks.  I don’t need to keep hitting refresh on the CBO website then.

  15. 15.

    debbie

    November 8, 2021 at 7:14 am

    Does anyone else get creeped out when Amazon emails you that a package has been delivered and includes a photo of the package sitting on my actual doorstep?

  16. 16.

    Ken

    November 8, 2021 at 7:15 am

    @Baud: What’s the status of the CBO reports?

    Shouldn’t we already know the answer? Or have the Democrats reversed the Republicans’ strategy of telling the CBO how to score the bill, as used in the big tax cut?

  17. 17.

    eclare

    November 8, 2021 at 7:17 am

    @Immanentize: 
    My vote is for Standard Time year round. It gets very hot here (Memphis) in the summer. I don’t need a sun shining on me at 9 pm when it’s 90 out.

  18. 18.

    Ken

    November 8, 2021 at 7:19 am

    @debbie: Only if the photo is taken from inside the house.

  19. 19.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 7:20 am

    @Ken:

    Everyone knows Democrats are captured by Big Number.

  20. 20.

    Elizabelle

    November 8, 2021 at 7:20 am

    @debbie:   No.  I find it really helpful.

    Because sometimes you look at the photo and realize:  that is not my door.  That’s several doors down.

    Also proof of delivery, in this sad era of porch thieves.

  21. 21.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 7:20 am

    @eclare: I agree. This time change twice a year throws my schedule and sleep cycle off for two weeks every year. I hate it.

  22. 22.

    Nicole

    November 8, 2021 at 7:21 am

    @debbie:

    Does anyone else get creeped out when Amazon emails you that a package has been delivered and includes a photo of the package sitting on my actual doorstep?

    Just wait until you get a photo of your package sitting on someone else’s doorstep!  Or, in my case, someone else’s apartment building lobby.  Some of the vendors Amazon farms out their deliveries to here in the city are… less than ideal.

    ETA: I see Elizabelle has had had the same experience.

  23. 23.

    Mustang Bobby

    November 8, 2021 at 7:21 am

    Florida passed a law a few years ago to move to permanent DST.  It didn’t take effect because it has to be approved by Congress and the Department of Transportation.  It would basically put us in the same time zone as Puerto Rico and totally screw up prime time on TV, not to mention the start of televised football games.  Not that it makes a hell of a lot of difference otherwise: down here in Miami the difference between sunset times in winter and summer is about two hours, if that.  I think the main reason they did it is because a lot of people can’t figure out how to reset their clocks.

  24. 24.

    eclare

    November 8, 2021 at 7:21 am

    @debbie:  When I have food delivered and left on my porch, probably half the time the driver includes a photo with the text saying that the food is here.  Doesn’t bother me at all

    And like Elizabelle says, porch pirates are a real thing.

  25. 25.

    zhena gogolia

    November 8, 2021 at 7:24 am

    @Ken: Hahaha

  26. 26.

    debbie

    November 8, 2021 at 7:25 am

    @eclare:

    I’m sure it’s just me. I haven’t had photos included more than a couple of times over the years.

  27. 27.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 8, 2021 at 7:28 am

    @Mustang Bobby: ​18 years? The only thing I’ve managed to keep up with for 18 years is breathing and there are more than a few who complain about that.

  28. 28.

    NotMax

    November 8, 2021 at 7:29 am

    Have not seen mention of this here, so,

    Troops and patrols deployed throughout Baghdad today following the failed assassination attempt with drones that targeted Iraq’s prime minister in his residence. The attack significantly raised tensions, sparked by the refusal of Iran-backed militias to accept last month’s parliamentary election results.

    Seven of Prime Minister Mustafa al-Kadhimi’s security guards were wounded in the attack by at least two drones in Baghdad’s heavily fortified Green Zone area, according to two Iraqi officials. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to give official statements.
    [snip]
    The sound of an explosion and heavy gunfire echoed across Baghdad from the direction of the Green Zone, which houses foreign embassies and government offices. Handout photos showed the damage to al-Kadhimi’s residence, including smashed windows and doors blown off their hinges.

    A video distributed later by security forces showed more damage: A van parked outside the residence badly mangled, a shallow crater near the stairs, cracks in the ceiling and walls of a balcony and broken parts of the building’s roof. Two small unexploded rockets were also filmed at the scene. Source

    Keep an eye on this story. Gut feeling is it will balloon into something much bigger.

  29. 29.

    Nicole

    November 8, 2021 at 7:31 am

    I… kinda like changing the clocks.  I get there’s no reason for it, but I like it.  By the time DST ends in the mid Atlantic, it’s still dark at 7AM and I don’t like waking up in the dark.  So I like the clock getting set back.  And when the weather gets nice I like the longer evening hours, so I like the set forward then.  And, I don’t know, it’s one of those little rituals of the year that I just enjoy.  But, if it’s eliminated, I’ll adjust.

    Years ago I worked Sundays at the zoo, and I always liked the DST start and end days because it took the sea lions a feeding to adjust their internal clocks and it was always funny watching them swim circles for an hour with their heads out of the water like furry periscopes, looking for the keepers, for the first feeding, and then at the other half of the year being surprised when the keepers showed up (apparently) an hour early.  But animals are very adaptable and by the second feeding they were on track.

  30. 30.

    Professor Bigfoot

    November 8, 2021 at 7:31 am

    @debbie:

    Nah. It’s when they tell me something’s been delivered and it’s a picture of NOT my porch that I get bothered.

  31. 31.

    debbie

    November 8, 2021 at 7:33 am

    @Nicole:

    One thing I had trouble adjusting to when I moved back to Ohio was how late it stayed light in summer compared to New York.

  32. 32.

    Mustang Bobby

    November 8, 2021 at 7:35 am

    @debbie: When I lived in northern lower Michigan — very far north and on the western edge of the time zone, sunset in summer was after nine p.m. and twilight lasted almost all night.  Of course, in winter, it’s the exact opposite.​
    ​
    ​

  33. 33.

    mali muso

    November 8, 2021 at 7:38 am

    Despite my best efforts to ease my almost-5 year old into the DST transition (gradually pushing her bedtime back the last few nights), she popped away an hour before the clock “said” it was time to arise. Oh well, on the bright side, we will be easily ready to roll out the door to pre-school on time, even early.

  34. 34.

    raven

    November 8, 2021 at 7:38 am

    @Mustang Bobby: Awesome!

  35. 35.

    raven

    November 8, 2021 at 7:39 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: How’s it today?

  36. 36.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 8, 2021 at 7:40 am

    @Immanentize:

    Why not choose standard time for all year? It is the time frame most closely associated with sun-time. That is, it is at least based on the sun being at its height at noon. Thank the railroads for time zones.

    Only if you’re at the central meridian of your time zone. The time zone boundaries wander around enough for socio-political reasons that some people are actually closer to the central meridian of a different time zone, which probably affects their preference.

    And for whatever cultural reason, most people’s daytime activity is not centered around 12 noon but tends to be shifted later than that, so arrangements that shift the clock forward tend to put human society in better alignment with the sun.

    I would weakly prefer year-round DST to year-round Standard Time, but honestly my preference is not strong and either would be superior to switching twice a year. The problem we have, it seems to me, is that most people want to get rid of the switch, but we have a majority that prefers year-round DST and a minority that VERY INTENSELY prefers year-round Standard Time (the usual argument is that it’s dangerous to make children wait for morning school buses in the dark), so there’s a impasse that leaves us with the status quo.

  37. 37.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    November 8, 2021 at 7:41 am

    @Immanentize: Fourth of July fireworks would start earlier, which would be nice.

  38. 38.

    raven

    November 8, 2021 at 7:43 am

    @Mustang Bob  Same in Georgia.

  39. 39.

    PST

    November 8, 2021 at 7:45 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: 18 years is nothing. I’ve had marriages that lasted longer.

  40. 40.

    NotMax

    November 8, 2021 at 7:45 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor

    They already start around the 30th of June as it is.

    ;)

  41. 41.

    Geo Wilcox

    November 8, 2021 at 7:47 am

    When we first moved to IN they did not change clocks. It was wonderful. Then some lame brained idiot decided to put it to a vote and low and behold now we are stuck with it.

    How I manage it is to start a week before the actual change and get up ten minutes earlier or later, same with bed time. By the time I actually change the clocks I am in tune with the new time. So are the pets.

  42. 42.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    November 8, 2021 at 7:47 am

    @NotMax: I can always count on you, NotMax

    ETA: I’m supposed to lead a book club discussion of Maggie O’Farrell’s HAMNET this afternoon. I hope they liked it.

  43. 43.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 7:53 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Sequel to HAMLET?

  44. 44.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 7:53 am

    @Baud: I wonder what bad-faith delaying tactic the so-called moderates will use after the CBO scores come in.

  45. 45.

    zhena gogolia

    November 8, 2021 at 7:53 am

    @debbie: I get them with almost every delivery.

  46. 46.

    eclare

    November 8, 2021 at 7:53 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:  Hamnet looks interesting.  Good luck!

  47. 47.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 8, 2021 at 7:55 am

    @debbie:

    One thing I had trouble adjusting to when I moved back to Ohio was how late it stayed light in summer compared to New York.

    Yeah, they’re in the same time zone, but NYC’s at about 74º west longitude while Cleveland’s at about 81º30′.  Since there’s 360 degrees of longitude and 24 time zones, that means the average width of a time zone, in longitude, is about 15 degrees.  So Cleveland’s about half a time zone west of NYC, so the sun rises and sets half an hour later in Cleveland. You’d notice that.

    Heck, I notice the difference between where I live (roughly due south of Annapolis, MD) and where my in-laws live, east of Tampa.  The difference is about five and a half degrees longitude, and when we visit at Christmas, I always notice how long it stays dark in the mornings.  And the difference can’t be more than about 20 minutes.

  48. 48.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 7:55 am

    @NotMax: The Iran-backed parties are alleging election fraud. One of their adherents was killed Friday while trying to storm the Green Zone.

  49. 49.

    NotMax

    November 8, 2021 at 7:57 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor

    HAMNET

    Internet for gentiles?

    //

  50. 50.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 8:00 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    My money is on concerns over the font used in the CBO report.

  51. 51.

    Betty

    November 8, 2021 at 8:00 am

    @Baud: My understanding is that the Senate is out for another week. That should be enough time to get the CBO piece done.

  52. 52.

    rikyrah

    November 8, 2021 at 8:00 am

    Good Morning Everyone ???

  53. 53.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 8:01 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    The oldest one in the world- Run Out The Clock. The only reason the House might not do it is because it would cleave the Party in two- cut it in half, just about evenly. It would be devastating. People can’t function at work with that level of distrust.

  54. 54.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 8:02 am

    @rikyrah: Good morning.

  55. 55.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    November 8, 2021 at 8:03 am

    @Baud: LOL. Close! Story of Shakespeare’s life in Stratford mostly from his wife’s POV. Hamnet was his son (in life and in the book), who died when he was 11. Interestingly, the names Hamlet and Hamnet were treated as identical. You see both spellings of the name for the same person in the records.

  56. 56.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 8:04 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I did not know that.  Thanks!

  57. 57.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    November 8, 2021 at 8:05 am

    @eclare: I really like Hamnet and it won all kinds of awards, but readers react so unpredictably.

  58. 58.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 8:05 am

    @Elizabelle: There was an interesting development in the Virginia House of Delegates election over the weekend. On Friday, Delegate Martha Mugler (94th-Hampton) conceded her close reelection. Final vote totals showed her losing to A.C. Cordoza 13,741 to 13,647, a margin of 94 votes. That gave Republicans a 51-49 majority.

    On Saturday, Mugler withdrew her concession. She had been made “aware of an error that could cause a significant shift in the count,” according to WTOP News. Presumably, election officials will start a recount today.

  59. 59.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 8:08 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Is it too much to ask that her next book be named Macdeth?

  60. 60.

    satby

    November 8, 2021 at 8:08 am

    @debbie: Nope.

    Edit: I mean, I already knew they walked up to my door to deliver it.

  61. 61.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    November 8, 2021 at 8:11 am

    @Baud: That’s unworthy of you, Baud. Groan.

  62. 62.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 8:14 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Thanks, D. It’s been a long time since anyone has held me to any kind of standard. I cherish your disappointment.

  63. 63.

    satby

    November 8, 2021 at 8:14 am

    @Nicole: I’m with you. And one hour either way doesn’t throw me off much as I’m more attuned to my own internal clock anyway. Fall back just limits my evenings more, because my eyesight isn’t really good enough for night driving any longer.*

    * Not from cataracts.

  64. 64.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 8:14 am

    @Kay: Jayapal still seems fairly optimistic. We shall see!

  65. 65.

    Taken4Granite

    November 8, 2021 at 8:20 am

    @Mustang Bobby: There have been occasional attempts to do the same in Maine, which at least has the argument of being far enough east that parts of the state are actually closer to the central meridian for the Atlantic time zone (unlike Florida, which is several degrees west of the central meridian for the Eastern time zone). These attempts have failed because Maine, like the other New England states, has its economy joined at the hip to Boston’s and therefore needs to follow Boston’s time zone.

  66. 66.

    Kristine

    November 8, 2021 at 8:21 am

    @debbie:

    Does anyone else get creeped out when Amazon emails you that a package has been delivered and includes a photo of the package sitting on my actual doorstep?

    yes

  67. 67.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    November 8, 2021 at 8:24 am

    @Betty Cracker: Jayapal generates that Pelosi sense that you can rely on her. She knows what she’s doing. We’ll have to see I guess.

  68. 68.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 8, 2021 at 8:25 am

    @Baud: My money is on concerns over the font used in the CBO report.

    They’ll be sure to check out the kerning.

  69. 69.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    November 8, 2021 at 8:25 am

    @NotMax: Good lord. You’re worse than Baud.

  70. 70.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 8:25 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Agree.  She’s been the most impressive throughout this whole thing.  I hope it works out for her (and all of us) with a decent BBB bil passing.

  71. 71.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 8:26 am

    @Mustang Bobby: Wow. I think we have been reading it for most of that time.

  72. 72.

    gvg

    November 8, 2021 at 8:27 am

    @debbie: Um, no. Then you know when it has been delivered to the wrong address right away. I have seen a few NextDoor posts where people have reposted the picture and people helped to locate where it really went. Also used in complaints to Amazon, which sometimes helps, sometimes not.

    I have also twice had a package left too visible and asked a neighbor to get it or in one case my mom drove over while I was at work. That was a Walmart gift for my dad which for some reason was bright blue packaging instead of brown…

    I have had hundreds of deliveries with nice inconspicuous brown packages left on my recognizable door out of sight of the street. In addition i enter through the garage not the front door, and it is a reminder to actually look out the door and get the package when I get home.

  73. 73.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 8:27 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    No lie told.

  74. 74.

    rikyrah

    November 8, 2021 at 8:28 am

     

    Kaiser Health News (@KHNews) tweeted at 1:41 PM on Sun, Nov 07, 2021:
    At least 2.2 million low-income adults — nearly all in TX and the Southeast — would be eligible for government-funded health insurance under the Democrats’ $1.75 trillion plan.

    ?: @philgalewitz & Andy Miller, KHN/@gahealthnews

    https://t.co/9dXG5pOwHK
    (https://twitter.com/KHNews/status/1457432920730255367?s=03)

  75. 75.

    Taken4Granite

    November 8, 2021 at 8:29 am

    Some observations about daylight savings time:

    1. Most Asian countries, and various other places (including, in the US, Hawaii and most of Arizona), don’t bother with DST. When dealing with my collaborator in China, for example, we now have to account for a time difference of 13 hours instead of 12.
    2. Europe does not start and end DST the same weekends as the US. Last week, the time difference between Germany and the eastern US was only five hours instead of the usual six.
    3. Some places in the Southern Hemisphere have DST, which for obvious reasons is in effect during austral summer. So when I visited Brazil in February 2005, the time difference between the eastern US and São Paolo was three hours, but in July it would be a one hour difference. (Only the southern part of Brazil observes DST, so the time difference between São Paolo and Manaus was two hours instead of one.)
  76. 76.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 8:31 am

    @rikyrah: That would save and improve many lives, and make many other heads explode.

  77. 77.

    eclare

    November 8, 2021 at 8:32 am

    @Baud:  And hopefully her mom in India will get another call from Joe when it passes!

  78. 78.

    eclare

    November 8, 2021 at 8:34 am

    @sab:   That is something I’d like to see.  Certain heads exploding….

  79. 79.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 8:36 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    I don’t think she made a bad bet. She’s betting the Right side in the House won’t blow up the Party. Reneging would cut the D side in half. It isn’t ten years ago where they could cut off the 10 or 20% progressives and still hold it together. This would split it in two. There’s already been a lot of degredation of trust, due, in my view to the bad faith negotiating by the side on the Right. It really isn’t a good sign when you’re entering into contracts with your colleagues. They don’t trust one another. This would destroy what remains. It’s high stakes for the centrists. They can spin it all they want- if they blow up the deal (and the Party) it’s on them. They got infrastructure. Now it’s time for them to hold up their end.

  80. 80.

    Ken

    November 8, 2021 at 8:37 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Oh great, now they’ll be competing.

  81. 81.

    gvg

    November 8, 2021 at 8:37 am

    I prefer we remain as we are using daylight savings time seasonally. I like it and I would of hated not having it as a child waiting for a bus in the dark. I like the extra hour of dayight when I get home in the summer to garden outside. I feel that daylight savings time switching actually matches the seasons better than remaining on a single time. It would be nicer if it was gradual, but that would be hard and cause confusing so this works. I don’t enjoy the losing sleep in spring but it’s worth it to me and I think the kids safety and feelings are more important anyway.
    Sometimes the status quo doesn’t get enough support, but I am actually firmly opposed to ending it.

  82. 82.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 8, 2021 at 8:38 am

    @Nicole:

    Just wait until you get a photo of your package sitting on someone else’s doorstep! 

    How about no picture, but they claim it was delivered? Hmmm….. let’s go searching.

    Oh there’s my oven thermometer – sitting outside the back door of a neighbor in a locked back porch area! ?

  83. 83.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 8, 2021 at 8:39 am

    @raven: same ol same ol. A little better in some regards, no better in others, and a little more pain than before. I go see the doc in just a bit. I’ll finally find out exactly what all he did. I got 9 stitches on one incision so I know he couldn’t arthroscope one procedure.

    ces’t la vie.

  84. 84.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 8:40 am

    @Kay: I don’t think this is one half of the House Democratic Caucus against the other. At this point, 95% of Caucus members are on the same page.

  85. 85.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 8, 2021 at 8:42 am

    @PST: with the same woman/man?

  86. 86.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 8, 2021 at 8:42 am

    @eclare:

    I don’t need a sun shining on me at 9 pm when it’s 90 out.

    ?Here comes the Go away Sun?

  87. 87.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 8, 2021 at 8:44 am

    @gvg:

    Sometimes the status quo doesn’t get enough support, but I am actually firmly opposed to ending it.

    Seconded!  In the winter, I don’t want it to be dark until 8am, but in the summer, I’d rather have daylight at 9pm than at 5am.

  88. 88.

    Elizabelle

    November 8, 2021 at 8:45 am

    @Geminid:  Wow.  Had not heard.  That would be fascinating.

    If Mugler prevails, a coin flip.  Which we lost, last time this happened (pretty recently).

    Keep me posted.

    I’ve not been following Virginia politics much.  Have been watching for any news on the outcome of fired Rocky Mount police officer/insurrectionist with a guns habit Thomas Robertson’s plea to get out of jail before his court date.

    Hearing was scheduled for last Monday, but no news.  Maybe it was continued.  I’m curious enough to email the Roanoke Times reporter for any updates.  I guess there’s local TV news, too …

    After that, cancelling the Richmond Times Dispatch for a few months.  Just cannot bear to read it.  Also, last visit to Europe:  it did not meet European privacy standards, and you couldn’t access the website anyway.  Might keep it for a few days to see if they took the EU standards more seriously in the intervening years.

  89. 89.

    Soprano2

    November 8, 2021 at 8:46 am

    @Immanentize: Why not choose standard time for all year?

    Because in some parts of the U.S. it would mean that the latest the sun would be up at the height of summer is around 7:15 p.m. I like having the light at night when I’m not at work. I don’t need sunlight at 5:00 a.m. in June – I’m in the house getting ready for work at that time, and I’m a night person anyway. I love having it be light at 8:30 p.m. in the summer. I hate it being dark by 5:00 p.m. – at 6:00 p.m. I feel like it’s already 10:00 p.m., and I hate that. That’s my selfish reason for not wanting standard time all year round.

  90. 90.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 8:46 am

    @Kay: Agreed — Jayapal played her hand as well as anyone could, IMO. It’s a risk, but dealing with liars, flakes and bad-faith actors is inherently risky.

  91. 91.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 8:48 am

    @Baud: The so-called progressives are on Twitter trashing the bipartisan infrastructure plan justifying their no vote. Say what you will about Manchin and Sinema, I have never seen them trash the Democratic party and Biden like the Justice Democrat Squad does.

  92. 92.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 8:51 am

    @Soprano2: I would be much happier if they moved the switch back to ST closer to the start of the school year. I don’t like the kids waiting for buses in the dark. And it helps if it’s dark for bedtime during the school year.

  93. 93.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 8:51 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    That’s why I’m not on Twitter.

  94. 94.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 8:55 am

    @Elizabelle: If Mugler wins, I don’t think there will be a coin flip to determine House of Delegates organization. They will have to work out a power sharing agreement.

    Now that the weekend is over, this story will get more attention. There must be a recount planned for today. We may not get a result for a couple of days.

  95. 95.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 8:56 am

    @Baud: I am on Twitter to keep up with news from India. For me Twitter is a net plus. Tweeting in Marathi and Hindi is great way to not let my Indian language skills completely rust. Also I have some wonderful Twitter mutuals who haven’t gone all bhakt like most of friends and family IRL has.

  96. 96.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 8:57 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    No shame intended. I know Twitter is a valuable tool for many people.

  97. 97.

    Soprano2

    November 8, 2021 at 8:58 am

    @debbie: We got someone’s Grubhub order from Taco Bell on our doorstep last night. We didn’t hear anyone knock on our door, and it was dark but our porch light wasn’t on. There was no address on the receipt, and no phone # to call, so there was no way for us to tell them they got the wrong house! It was three specially-made burritos and six of something else. Someone was upset they didn’t get their food. Perhaps a photo with the house would have been helpful to the person who ordered the food.

  98. 98.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 8, 2021 at 8:58 am

    Will Elon Musk abide by Twitter poll and sell 10% of his Tesla shares?

    And pay taxes on income???? You must be high.

  99. 99.

    Spanky

    November 8, 2021 at 8:58 am

    @Immanentize: You have spoken my exact thoughts. Thank you. Kill DST and shift work/school/store hours as appropriate.

  100. 100.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 8:59 am

    @Mustang Bobby: I used to live in Grand Rapids, and summer light was forever. But I also lived in the north of England. In the winter the sun set at about 4 pm and came up the next day at 10 am. In the summer the sun st at about 11pm and came up again shortly afterwards.

    Muchigan’s problem is it is really far west in its time zone, and also really far north by American standards. They don’ t need DST at all except to be in sync with the rest of their time zone.

  101. 101.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 8:59 am

    @Soprano2: Did you eat it?

  102. 102.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 8:59 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    Yup. It’s wrong to say she has “no leverage” either. Her leverage is “hold the Party together or blow it up?” Reneging would be huge now. They could have gotten away with it in June but not now.

  103. 103.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 8, 2021 at 9:00 am

    @schrodingers_cat: Tweeting in Marathi and Hindi is great way to not let my Indian language skills completely rust.

    That is no small thing. My wife complains all the time about how much Catalan she has lost since her mother’s death.

  104. 104.

    Soprano2

    November 8, 2021 at 9:02 am

    @Geminid: So, then, kind of like the MAGA’s here, except with more lethal weapons.

  105. 105.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 9:04 am

    @Geminid:

    At this point, 95% of Caucus members are on the same page.

    I don’t believe that. If “95%” were on the same page it would have been done. I’m not mad about it- the reality is that 50% of the D’s are on the Right side, if you split it in two. I accept that, but I don’t lie to myself about it.

  106. 106.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 8, 2021 at 9:06 am

    @Soprano2:

    Someone was upset they didn’t get their food. Perhaps a photo with the house would have been helpful to the person who ordered the food. 

    One of your neighbors hates their digestive system. :)

  107. 107.

    Soprano2

    November 8, 2021 at 9:07 am

    @schrodingers_cat: The so-called progressives are on Twitter trashing the bipartisan infrastructure plan justifying their no vote.

    I heard that. I don’t mind them voting no, because Pelosi released them to do that, but they shouldn’t be trashing their own side! They are acting like Republicans, shame on them.

  108. 108.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 9:08 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:Its better than nothing and I get where your wife is coming from. There is no one I can speak to in Marathi.

    Plus Indian news is rarely covered or covered well by our MSM. Local language media is closer to the ground and gives me a more accurate picture of what is happening.

  109. 109.

    Soprano2

    November 8, 2021 at 9:08 am

    @sab: I think it would still be dark at 7:00 p.m., it just wouldn’t be dark at 5:00. I would hate it more in the summer, when the sun went down at 7:30. I love having the late evenings in the summer. Of course, I don’t have kids either.

  110. 110.

    WaterGirl

    November 8, 2021 at 9:08 am

    @Betty Cracker: You go to war with the colleagues you have, not the colleagues you might want.

    But yeah, it’s terrible not to trust the people around you, especially if you have to rely on them to get anything done.

  111. 111.

    Soprano2

    November 8, 2021 at 9:09 am

    @Betty Cracker: Heck no, it’s going to be dog food! LOL

  112. 112.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 9:10 am

    @Soprano2: It is a strange parallel that could be just a coincidence. But the Iranian leadership pays attention to American politics, and might be working off the Republican playbook in neighboring Iraq.

  113. 113.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 9:10 am

    @Soprano2:  I don’t mind them voting no, because Pelosi released them to do that, but they shouldn’t be trashing their own side!

    That Pelosi released them to vote no is pure speculation. They looked surprised when the bill passed. Based on their vote and reaction, and behavior afterwards I would say that they wanted to tank the bill.

  114. 114.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 9:13 am

    @Kay: They could have gotten away with it, but we wouldn’t have any bill now. Kudos to her for holding the progressives together.

    I respect Schrodinger’s Cat a lot, but I disagree with her on this. In my uninformed opinion the progressives need to hold together with the party for the vote to get it through, but otherwise they should be able to vote or whatever to express their frustration because they gave up a lot.

    Otherwise we are just back in the triangulating Clinton years when Dems won a lot and had nothing to show for it.

  115. 115.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 9:14 am

    @sab:

    Otherwise we are just back in the triangulating Clinton years when Dems won a lot and had nothing to show for it

     
    We didn’t win a lot. We lost Congress early on.

  116. 116.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 9:15 am

    @Geminid:

    The Republicans didn’t exactly invent the current Republican strategy.

  117. 117.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 9:15 am

    For the infrastructure bill, you probably have to sell it as EITHER “bipartisan” OR “progressive”

    These people did not vote for a “progressive” bill:

    • Roy Blunt, Missouri
    • Richard Burr, North Carolina
    • Shelley Moore Capito, West Virginia
    • Bill Cassidy, Louisiana
    • Susan Collins, Maine
    • Kevin Cramer, North Dakota
    • Mike Crapo, Idaho
    • Deb Fischer, Nebraska
    • Lindsey Graham, South Carolina
    • Chuck Grassley, Iowa
    • John Hoeven, North Dakota
    • Mitch McConnell, Kentucky
    • Lisa Murkowski, Alaska
    • Rob Portman, Ohio
    • James Risch, Idaho
    • Mitt Romney, Utah
    • Dan Sullivan, Alaska
    • Thom Tillis, North Carolina
    • Roger Wicker, Mississippi

    It’s a real accomplishment and Biden can and will take credit for it, and “bipartisan” is like a magic incantation for media, so maybe it’ll help bring his numbers up with the normies (good!)   But- it isn’t a “progressive” accomplishment. You didn’t turn Mitch McConnell into a progressive.

    My main objection to it is it leaves the conservative frame around revenue and expenditures in place- they didn’t raise taxes to pay for it. They didn’t pay for it at all, which obviously makes negotiations easier. They could pass the BBB too if it were “free”.

  118. 118.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 9:16 am

    @Baud: Why vote Dem because they too are unwinding social safety net just to get along.

    ETA Or more accurately, why vote at all. I think the Squad is well aware of this problem.

  119. 119.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 9:17 am

    @sab: All the progressives in the Progressive Caucus voted for the bill, except for the Bernie Brigade.

  120. 120.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 9:18 am

    @sab:

    Oh, who knows. I give it a 25% chance of passing. She played a bad hand well and playing a bad hand well is the only real measure. Anyone can play a good one.

    I don’t believe the polling on BBB- I think it’s less popular than that, so it won’t “fix” Democrats for the midterms anyway. Biden has to get his approval up. Normies respond to general environment.

  121. 121.

    leeleeFL

    November 8, 2021 at 9:18 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: i read a novel years ago about this subject. Can’t remember the name.  It was interesting and somewhat sad.

  122. 122.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 9:19 am

    @Kay: I am not lying to myself. If you drew an arbitrary ideological line down the middle of tbe Democratic Caucus, you would find that the 50 Democrats just to either side were virtually identical so far as policy goes. There wouldn’t be all that much difference between the 100 Representatives on either side either. The outliers on either end of the caucus are, in fact, outliers.

  123. 123.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 9:20 am

    @sab:

    Bill Clinton didn’t unwind the safety net (i.e. welfare reform) until after Republicans won.  His major accomplishment in his first two years with a Dem Congress was getting our finances in order by, among other things, raising taxes on the wealthy (and an expanded earned income tax credit, I believe) to a level we haven’t seen since.  That helped lead to unprecedented economic growth and GOP domination in Congress because voters will not reward good government.

  124. 124.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 9:21 am

    And, arguably, selling it as “bipartisan” might work better, given the absolutely insane full blown “woke” panic among our elites.

    But you aren’t going to persuade committed progressives Mitch McConnell backed a progressive bill (because it’s not true)  so take another route with them- or just fuck em. They have no where to go anyway.

  125. 125.

    leeleeFL

    November 8, 2021 at 9:21 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: They make it possible for me to sleep.  And Joe’s calmness in the face of BS.  Good stuff will happen.

  126. 126.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 9:21 am

    @schrodingers_cat: We disagree on tactics but I think we are on the same side in general?

  127. 127.

    RevRick

    November 8, 2021 at 9:22 am

    @Kay: The timing of BBB is getting interesting. Presumably the House votes on some version with aspirational elements in it, such as immigration, this week, and sends it over to the Senate. The Senate votes on its version and sends it back to the House.

    But here’s the interesting part: we’re now in late November, with a Thanksgiving holiday, and in early December Congress will have to raise the debt ceiling and provide funding for the government. The Senate Republicans have already threatened that they won’t help raise the debt ceiling and will filibuster any attempt to do so.

    That means that everything- BBB, the debt ceiling, and government funding- will get crammed into one gigantic reconciliation bill that no Democrat will dare vote against!

  128. 128.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 9:26 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    All the progressives in the Progressive Caucus voted for the bill, except for the Bernie Brigade

     
    I thought I read that the Progressive Caucus had a unity rule that if 80% supported something, the other 20% had to support it.

  129. 129.

    Sure Lurkalot

    November 8, 2021 at 9:26 am

    Where’s Glen?

  130. 130.

    Fair Economist

    November 8, 2021 at 9:27 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Say what you will about Manchin and Sinema, I have never seen them trash the Democratic party and Biden like the Justice Democrat Squad does.

    Manchin declares himself “totally out of sync” with other Democrats.

    Manchin: Why I’m voting against “We the People” Act.

    Manchin leads opposition to Biden’s climate bill.

    Sinema doesn’t raise much of a fuss in *public*, TBF, because at this point she only talks to lobbyists giving her the $2,000 max contribution.

  131. 131.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 9:28 am

    @Baud: I am not intending to criticize Clinton so much. He dealt with the hand he was dealt, but a generation of Democrats came out thinking what is the point. That is what I think the Squad is handling. They won’t blow up compromises like Ted Kennedy did, but they will complain loudly when they lose important things. Hopefully they will be around next go round to win.

    It’s a generationally different approach. Hope it works

    ETA In my experience theywill be around. The few surviving Blue Dog Democrats won’t.

  132. 132.

    Duckpocalypse

    November 8, 2021 at 9:30 am

    Don Diego, El Gato Magnifico this morning at 0330(ON THE DOT):

    Oh Biped Food Maker!  Wakey wakey! (Cold nose in small of back)  Hey!  Is Foods and Snuggle time! (taptap shoulder) Oy!  Fat boy!  Make with the Can Opening Time!  (Face in Eye Socket, the licking commences)

  133. 133.

    Fair Economist

    November 8, 2021 at 9:31 am

    @Elizabelle:

    If Mugler prevails, a coin flip. Which we lost, last time this happened (pretty recently).

    The coin flip was for the outcome of one particular race, which was exactly tied. There is no procedure for a tie in the House of Delegates itself.

  134. 134.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 9:31 am

    I would just think the obvious audience for “bipartisan infrastructure” is not committed progressives but centrist normies.

    So go get them. Building trades lobbied for the bill, the commonality among Republicans in the House who voted for it are they’re dependent on labor. They’re 50% Trumpsters and there are a lot of them in northern red and swing states. Go get them.

    I don’t know how you’ll move media off their “woke” panic at this point- they’re committed- but you don’t need them anyway. Take it to centrists directly.

  135. 135.

    Dupe1970

    November 8, 2021 at 9:31 am

    @Immanentize: ​
      I agree with you but a lot of people want to sun to be up “later” in the day. Meanwhile have sunlight for my morning commute is so much nicer.

  136. 136.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 9:31 am

    @Fair Economics:

    He comes from a blood red state, I don’t like his rhetoric but it is understandable.

    I would bet anything that the people who these Justice Ds replaced would have voted for this bill. Their stances have nothing to do with their constituents.

  137. 137.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 9:32 am

    @Baud: The Progressive Caucus did adopt new rules for this Congress. I don’t know how much teeth they have. Representative Ohmar was an advocate of the tighter rules, and is Caucus Whip, but she voted differently than 89 other Progressive Caucus members Friday night.

  138. 138.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 9:32 am

    @Baud: Rules are for little people.

  139. 139.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 9:34 am

    @sab: I think you are correct that the no votes were a leadership-sanctioned expression of frustration — and a signal that the nays would keep fighting to preserve key provisions in BBB. It’s pretty clear if you read between the lines of this Sierra Club tweet, which was retweeted by Rep. Jayapal:

    Thank you @RepJayapal @USProgressives @RepCori @JamaalBowmanNY @RepAOC @Ilhan @RepPressley @RepRashida for standing up for #BuildBackBetter and vowing to fight till we’ve invested in climate action, family-sustaining jobs, and racial, economic & environmental justice for all.

    — Sierra Club (@SierraClub) November 6, 2021

    ;

  140. 140.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 9:35 am

    @sab: Yes we are on the same side. I am skeptical of the Bernie Brigade that’s all.

  141. 141.

    Starfish

    November 8, 2021 at 9:35 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Thoughtfully trying to defend the vote they took is different from “trashing the bill.” This seems like it is making the case for why the next bill should be supported.

    The cost to replace every lead pipe in the United States is $45-60 billion.
    BIF only gives $15b. Without BBB, many communities historically denied clean water will continue to be denied.

    Build Back Better has lead $ for disadvantaged communities. We must keep pushing for BBB.

    — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@AOC) November 7, 2021

  142. 142.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 8, 2021 at 9:35 am

    @Duckpocalypse: LOL. Luckily my el doggo magnifico is happy to sleep as long as I do, sometimes even longer. Makes for a congenial coexistence.

  143. 143.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 9:36 am

    @sab:

    I don’t pay enough attention anymore to opine, but as a general matter, I don’t believe feeding people’s skepticism gets them to be less skeptical, and it sounds like that’s the approach you are saying they are adopting.

  144. 144.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 8, 2021 at 9:37 am

    @schrodingers_cat: Examples, please?

    I figured I’d check out @AOC since she’s the best-known of the Squad.  About the worst I could see that she had to say was this:

    The cost to replace every lead pipe in the United States is $45-60 billion.

    BIF only gives $15b. Without BBB, many communities historically denied clean water will continue to be denied.

    Is it true or false?  If it’s false, then call her out as a liar. Fair game.  If it’s true, then the truth needs to be said.

    If one of them has said something much worse than this, show us what it is.  But I’m so tired of people who decide to hate on someone, and want everyone else to join in

    ETA: Beaten to it by Starfish.

  145. 145.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 9:37 am

    @Starfish: She has been spinning like a top about her vote.

  146. 146.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 9:38 am

    Democrats know it isn’t for progressives. That’s why they’re selling it as “bipartisan infrastructure bill”

    Centrists can’t blame progressives if they can’t reach their own constituency. There are more centrists and normies. I have no idea why anyone of them would spend a minute trying to sell it to progressives.

    The Michigan centrist in the House media always use as a bellweather- this fucking thing is tailor made for her. She has a half R district and Michigan is a union state. Take it and run with it.

  147. 147.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 8, 2021 at 9:39 am

    @schrodingers_cat: There’s a difference between skepticism – I’m all for that – and just trashing people for no apparent reason.

  148. 148.

    hueyplong

    November 8, 2021 at 9:39 am

    The “progressives” voted no when allowed to because it could pass without their votes (something the GOPers do periodically).  They did no harm to the bottom line.

    I’ll wait until the vote to issue a mental fatwah of death in abstentia, but S&M are threatening the passage in any form of the BBB through what seems a lot like bad faith at any time other than when Jayapal is pouring oil over troubled water to keep us from freaking out.

    As of AM 11.8.21, it’s not difficult to discern which is more annoying.

  149. 149.

    Starfish

    November 8, 2021 at 9:39 am

    @Baud: Twitter is a weird place. There have been several days of discussions about BIG BIRD. We will all forget about it next week.

  150. 150.

    dww44

    November 8, 2021 at 9:41 am

    @eclare: ​
      Color me a vote for year round daylight savings time. Being a night person, I like light later in the day. I don’t mind getting up in the dark and love those extra hours after normal workdays. (rather they used to be normal;i’m so old I remember when the move was first made to go to DST for half the year) My memory tells me that it was viewed then as a good thing by most folks.

  151. 151.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 9:42 am

    I think the rule is 2/3rds? But in any case, I suck at math, but I think 6 nays out of 95 members meets the standard.

  152. 152.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 9:46 am

    @lowtechcyclist: This is the 6 or the 7th vote where the Squad has voted with the Republicans.

  153. 153.

    Soprano2

    November 8, 2021 at 9:46 am

    @Kay: I’ve gotta give Rachel Martin credit, in this interview she twice tried to get Gottheimer to address the fact that the infrastructure bill that just passed isn’t paid for, but he weaseled out of answering both times, and this was after expressing “concerns” about the BBB not being paid for! Sometimes I think politicians need to develop better answers to questions so it isn’t so apparent that they’re completely not answering the question they were asked.

  154. 154.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 9:46 am

    @Betty Cracker: 2/3 of 90 is 60.

  155. 155.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 9:46 am

    @lowtechcyclist:

    This is what CNN says.

    It would provide $55 billion to upgrade water infrastructure, according to the bill text. It would replace lead service lines and pipes so that communities have access to clean drinking water, the White House said

     

    Doesn’t quite answer the question.

  156. 156.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 9:47 am

    I was told there’d be no math.

  157. 157.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 9:48 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    They won’t take “yes” for an answer on this site! They got the infrastructure bill and still it’s all the fault of progressives.

    The Democratic Party is a huge and expensive organization- swimming in cash. If they’re waiting for Lefties on Twitter to sell the bipartisan infrastructure bill they’re going to be waiting a long time.

    Don’t wait! Just get out there and do it.

  158. 158.

    gene108

    November 8, 2021 at 9:48 am

    @Kay:

    I don’t believe the polling on BBB- I think it’s less popular than that, so it won’t “fix” Democrats for the midterms anyway. Biden has to get his approval up. Normies respond to general environment.

    “Normies” react to the theme of the Narrative the media set.

    There are two media streams in the USA. The right-wing media, whose narratives range from Democrats are shitting the bed to actively trying to murder you in your sleep and turn your children into transgender homosexual queers.

    Then there’s the MSM, who often latch onto a right-wing narrative. When this happens it’s like two waves reinforcing each other making the message so strong that’s all most people perceive. With the BBB the two media streams settled on the “Democrats are shitting the bed” narrative, so that’s what “Normies” understand.

    The only way for Democrats to avoid this is to have legislation pre-written and unanimously agreed to, in order to show better optics than the sausage making and to attempt to dictate the media Narrative.

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I saw you post in yesterday’s morning thread. I’m fine. The worst of my issues are over. What I’m going through is more preventative to make sure it doesn’t happen again anytime soon. Thanks for the concern.

  159. 159.

    Soprano2

    November 8, 2021 at 9:48 am

    @Kay: Normies respond to general environment.

    Normies will respond well to the bipartisan nature of the bill that just passed, that’s for sure. The press will tout it too, which they won’t do if BBB passes. They’re all-in on the idea that something bipartisan is always better than something that isn’t. I just hope they’re going to be rolling stuff out right away, instead of waiting until 3 years in the future. That’s one reason we got killed on the ACA so badly.

  160. 160.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 9:48 am

    @Baud: Really? I thought they were voting for to keep moderately helpful bills alive, and voting against when the bill will still get through. The alternative is to vote to block everything that isn’t perfect (1990s approach) which got us nowhere.

  161. 161.

    WaterGirl

    November 8, 2021 at 9:49 am

    @Baud: There is always math.

  162. 162.

    Starfish

    November 8, 2021 at 9:49 am

    @schrodingers_cat: She went against her party, so she has some explaining to do. She is explaining to her voters what her thought process was. That is totally what someone who voted against their party should be doing.

  163. 163.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 9:49 am

    @Soprano2:

    I think we should stop telling rich people and business interests they can have a functioning country without paying for it. I get that they want one. They have to pay for things.

  164. 164.

    WaterGirl

    November 8, 2021 at 9:50 am

    @gene108: It’s a relief to hear that!  thank you for the update.

  165. 165.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 9:50 am

    @gene108:

    turn your children into transgender homosexual queers who believe in CRT.

     
    Fixed.

  166. 166.

    eclare

    November 8, 2021 at 9:52 am

    @dww44:  I realize I am the outlier…it just sucks to have to hibernate in the summer.

  167. 167.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 9:53 am

    @sab:

    Your contrast with the 1990s escapes me.  I don’t much care about their votes since they weren’t needed.  Nor am I glad that they voted no. All things being equal, I much prefer unity on something like this. It’s the same standard I have for the right flank too.

  168. 168.

    Soprano2

    November 8, 2021 at 9:55 am

    @Kay: Yep, I point this out to people on places like FB regularly, that people want things but don’t want to pay for them. It’s not right. It’s the same thing as people thinking everyone can have a $2/hr raise but prices will all stay the same. That’s not going to happen.

  169. 169.

    eclare

    November 8, 2021 at 9:55 am

    @gene108:  Oh that is such good news!

  170. 170.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 8, 2021 at 9:57 am

    Chester A. Arthur @ZacAKAMadu· 15h
    AOC’s attempts to justify her vote against funding for replacing lead pipes are simply wrong.
    BIF has $15 billion specifically reserved for lead pipe replacement – and another $20B+ in other SDWA funds which can go to lead pipes and more.

    And states provide 49% matching funds.

    BIF includes $55 billion for water projects, for states and cities to use for various drinking water problems.

    In Flint, it’s lead. In Hoosick Falls, it’s PFOA. BIF helps communities rebuild their pipes, sewers, drinking water and wastewater treatment.

    So the way BIF works is cities + states apply to EPA for Safe Drinking Water Act funds.
    EPA gives out $15B reserved for lead pipes only + $20B from general SDWA funds.
    cities + states pony up $34.3B. = $70B spent total on drinking water projects, replacing lead pipes and more.

  171. 171.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 9:59 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Thanks! That’s more detailed than what I found in the CNN article.

  172. 172.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 9:59 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Thanks for bringing the receipts.  Will check back in a bit to watch the fanclub come up with a new excuse.

  173. 173.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 10:00 am

    @Baud: You are probably right. Nobody cares how they voted, just what gets passed.

  174. 174.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 10:00 am

    @Starfish:  Is Ocasio-Cortez explaining her stance to her voters, or to her huge national Twitter and Tik-Tok following, or to the donors that have made her the fifth highest fundraiser in the House? Very few of tbose donors live in her district.

    Another of the six Democrats who voted against the bill, Jamaal Bowman, used the vote in a fundraising ad showing him and the five other “Squad” members (looking very stern). Bowman put it up after the vote Friday night,  then took it down 45 minutes later because of the bad optics.

  175. 175.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 10:01 am

    @schrodingers_cat: LOL, okay. I was thinking that up to 20% or a third could vote against a bill the majority supported, which I now see wasn’t what y’all were saying upthread. [Emily Latilla voice]: Never mind!

  176. 176.

    Steve in the ATL

    November 8, 2021 at 10:03 am

    What is the point of the $65B for rural broadband?  Rural populations are declining rapidly.  Do these trumpers really need faster access to redstate and 8chan and whatnot?

  177. 177.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 10:04 am

    @Steve in the ATL:

    Distract them with HD porn.

  178. 178.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 8, 2021 at 10:05 am

    Listening to Secretary Mayor Pete talking about Infrastructure Week.

    ETA: Historic investment, clean water, cleaning up brown sites, creating JOBS, etc. Next working on the 2nd half of realizing the President’s vision, especially w/r/t climate change. But first, let’s celebrate what we accomplished and work on implementing well what we just passed.

  179. 179.

    Soprano2

    November 8, 2021 at 10:06 am

    @Steve in the ATL: Have you thought about the fact that one reasons for declining rural populations might be the lack of decent internet service? It’s not a luxury anymore, it’s a necessity like phone or electricity. It’s not a bad thing to increase the quality of life for people who live in rural areas. It’s like the REA, where the government had to extend services to the places where it wasn’t profitable for private company to do it. I don’t want us to be like Republicans, who only care about doing things for people who vote for them. Perhaps more liberal people would move to the country if the services there were better.

  180. 180.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 10:06 am

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    I might have to catch that later. He speaks good.

  181. 181.

    sab

    November 8, 2021 at 10:06 am

    @Steve in the ATL: Ozark Hillbilly wants his wife to have a work at home instead of commute option.

  182. 182.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 10:08 am

    @Steve in the ATL: Its not just the red state areas, I used to live in town in dark blue MA which had no broadband internet access till the town put it in, in 2014.

  183. 183.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 8, 2021 at 10:10 am

    @Baud: Yes he does, albeit briefly this time around. Now up on the Zoom presentation is Sarah Silverberg, Special Assistant to the President for economic stuff.

  184. 184.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 10:10 am

    @Steve in the ATL: A lot of the broadband money will go to underserved urban communities such as housing projects. And those rural areas may not decline so fast once they get high speed internet.

    In any event, support for rural broadband was a campaign promise Joe Biden made. I heard him say it himself in an ad I heard several times while driving through North Carolina a couple days before the election. The other promise in the ad was support for rural health care, which is in the BBB bill.

  185. 185.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 10:10 am

    @Steve in the ATL: We’re rural liberals who managed to find broadband in the hinterlands, but more widespread availability might entice others to join our effort to outnumber the Trumpers! Seriously, though, it’s a good thing to show people in rural areas that the gubmint can get shit done. Even if we never win these areas, we HAVE to reduce the margins by which we lose.

  186. 186.

    zhena gogolia

    November 8, 2021 at 10:14 am

    @Betty Cracker: Yes.

  187. 187.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 8, 2021 at 10:16 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    @lowtechcyclist: This is the 6 or the 7th vote where the Squad has voted with the Republicans.

    And which ones kept a bill from passing?

    Seriously, if your problem is that Dems don’t vote in lockstep on everything, that’s your problem, because the Dems are never gonna be like that.

    A better indication of good faith is, are their votes there when they’re needed?

  188. 188.

    eclare

    November 8, 2021 at 10:18 am

    @Steve in the ATL:   Friend of mine has a relative who teaches in a town of around 30k people in East TN.  When covid was surging, no way to go virtual due to lack of connectivity.  So everyone had to keep coming in person.

    My friend got covid last year, before vaccines were available, luckily mild, for the most part.  No way to tell if the teacher got it at school and gave it to my friend, but that seems likely.

  189. 189.

    eclare

    November 8, 2021 at 10:20 am

    @O. Felix Culpa:   Mayor Pete is such a great spokesperson/cheerleader for this administration.

  190. 190.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 10:20 am

    @lowtechcyclist: The specific bills they voted against also matter to me. I judge legislators by their votes and the legislation  they can pass, not the followers on their social media accounts. YMMV.

  191. 191.

    satby

    November 8, 2021 at 10:22 am

    @Baud: I love Twitter. And there’s lots of people who used to comment here on there. Feels a lot like the golden age of Balloon Juice.

  192. 192.

    lowtechcyclist

    November 8, 2021 at 10:24 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    @lowtechcyclist: The specific bills they voted against also matter to me. I judge legislators by their votes and the legislation  they can pass, not the followers on their social media accounts. YMMV.

    Well if you’re judging them by the legislation they can pass, then voting against a bill when it’s got enough votes without them shouldn’t be a problem, should it?

  193. 193.

    Steve in the ATL

    November 8, 2021 at 10:24 am

    Duly noted, thank you.  Makes more sense to me now.  I was thinking that with limited money available (thanks, Joe and Kyrsten! ETA: and all 50 republican senators) we should focus our resources on where the people are, not where they were in 1920.

  194. 194.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 8, 2021 at 10:26 am

    @satby: Balloon Juice feels like a social club more than a political blog these days.

  195. 195.

    Baud

    November 8, 2021 at 10:26 am

    @satby:

    I stick around for the company more than the politics these days.  I’m not exactly sure what I’d do if it comes time to move on.

  196. 196.

    gene108

    November 8, 2021 at 10:26 am

    @Baud:

    You forgot getting FMLA passed and DADT, which was progress for gay rights however deeply flawed it may have been.

    With his healthcare plan not getting approved, Bill Clinton didn’t have a Plan B “Big Fucking Deal” bill as a backup. If he could’ve predicted the scorched earth opposition to it, it might have faired better. The level of opposition was not seen in decades, and thought a thing of the past.

    Bill Clinton also made a conscious effort to nominate women and minorities to high ranking Cabinet positions, including Cabinet Secretaries, which broke down some barriers.

  197. 197.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 8, 2021 at 10:28 am

    seems like ever since the word “message” became a verb I’ve been hearing that “Democrats suck at messaging!”, usually from the left. So at a time when trumpism has a far greater chance of taking over the federal government, to say nothing of a majority of states, than Bernie-ism, the Bernistas are “messaging” that Dem accomplishments are a failure. Again.

    Once again, far too many Democrats, to say nothing of the broader left, learned all the wrong lessons, if they learned anything at all, from 2016. And I guess I might as well talk about the Treaty of Westphalia as 2000.

    That three judge panel that has (temporarily?) block Biden’s vaccine mandate? Two of the judges were appointed by Donald Trump. But hey! we stopped TPP! and we’re safe from the scourge of WALL STREET SPEECHES!

  198. 198.

    Old School

    November 8, 2021 at 10:30 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    And states provide 49% matching funds.

    Wait.  The infrastructure bill only pays 51% of the cost to replace lead pipes?  Providing safe water in Republican-governed states is dependent on Republicans voting to fund almost half of it?

    I sure hope that isn’t accurate.

  199. 199.

    Taken4Granite

    November 8, 2021 at 10:37 am

    @Steve in the ATL: It is more likely to help in purple areas like New Hampshire, where I live. I live within a ten minute walk of my town’s downtown, and I only just got fiber optic internet (installed over the weekend). Until about a month ago my internet service options were cable (Comcast–enough said) or DSL. You don’t have to get very far from the center of town for DSL to not be available, and many areas have never had cable service run to them because there are too few households per line mile. These people, as well as those who live intown in smaller towns that don’t yet have fiber optic, will get viable broadband options that don’t involve satellites or evil cable companies. That’s more likely to help than hurt Democrats in this state, particularly Maggie Hassan, who is up for reelection in 2022 and considered among the most vulnerable Democrats in this cycle.

  200. 200.

    UncleEbeneezer

    November 8, 2021 at 10:39 am

    Here’s a wild idea.  How about we save all the BBB post-mortems for, I dunno, POST mortem…

    It seems like all this energy could be much better used in pushing to get some version of it PASSED, rather than arguing about who killed it, when it’s not dead yet.

    I swear, the fact that so many Dems would rather bicker preemptively about an assumed failure, rather than fight to avoid said failure, is deeply depressing (though hardly surprising).

  201. 201.

    UncleEbeneezer

    November 8, 2021 at 10:40 am

    @Old School: Yeah, that scares me too.

  202. 202.

    Tarragon

    November 8, 2021 at 10:45 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    but we have a majority that prefers year-round DST and a minority that VERY INTENSELY prefers year-round Standard Time

    And a very very small minority that would prefer the whole world just on UTC1 all the time.  It doesn’t really matter what number is on the clock at dawn everyone around you will be getting up around dawn.

  203. 203.

    UncleEbeneezer

    November 8, 2021 at 10:46 am

    @lowtechcyclist: Golden Tickets are nothing new in politics.  They happen all the time at every level of government for a whole host of reasons.  Anyone pretending this is some unusual thing hasn’t been paying attention.

  204. 204.

    gvg

    November 8, 2021 at 10:51 am

    @Steve in the ATL: ​
      Yes we need fast internet everywhere. Piecemeal makes the whole less efficient. Also making only the cities where you can get stuff, forces people to all move there which forces housing prices up and makes traffic a nightmare. FDR did rural electrification and it helped the whole country.
    When I was young,my Wisconsin farm relatives were isolated and seemed almost Amish or Puritan to my edge of town Florida relatives. My grandmother (father’s side) took my mothers younger sister to a Disney movie in the 60’s and afterwards my aunt said she had never been because her parents didn’t allow that…life revolved around hard work on the farm and the church for social life. In the 80’s VCR rental places came to nearby towns and some even got satellite dishes. Suddenly those farms got exposed to popular culture and caught up to the modern world much more than before. They are still conservative compared to cities, but there was a huge leap forward then
    They have kids. The kids deserve a chance. This is actually really important to our country.

  205. 205.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 8, 2021 at 10:58 am

    @Old School: yes, one component of this large and complicated bill is dependent on local financing

    local elections matter

    another reason why it’s a mistake to harp on flaws in the bill and sell what’s good and tell people that local elections matter

  206. 206.

    MinuteMan

    November 8, 2021 at 11:25 am

    > Literally woke up to this. Apparently feeding time does not recognize daylight savings time.

    Hardly a surprise since our canine friends are always on DST: doggy stomach time.  No act of Congress will change that.

  207. 207.

    J R in WV

    November 8, 2021 at 11:26 am

    @gvg:
     

    I have had hundreds of deliveries with nice inconspicuous brown packages left on my recognizable door out of sight of the street. In addition i enter through the garage not the front door, and it is a reminder to actually look out the door and get the package when I get home.

    Our front door into the kitchen is up a curved set of stone steps, and faces a rock wall about 15 or 20 feet away, The doors at ground level are entry to the basement shop, and frequently they sneak up and drop a package at one of those doors. Where they could lay out in the weather for however long.

    Have had hi-tech equipment delivered out there in the rain, they are supposed to bag deliveries like that, haha. Our neighbors sometimes receive mail order deliveries, and sometimes forget to let us know until some other reason brings us together. He finally put a big plastic toolbox at the foot of his driveway labeled for receipt of deliveries. I get stuff out there too, even though his address is different from ours, obviously.

  208. 208.

    rikyrah

    November 8, 2021 at 11:31 am

    @Mustang Bobby:

     

    Congratulations :)

  209. 209.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 12:22 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

     So at a time when trumpism has a far greater chance of taking over the federal government, to say nothing of a majority of states, than Bernie-ism, the Bernistas are “messaging” that Dem accomplishments are a failure. Again.

    Who or what is stopping Democrats from selling this as a centrist bill? That’s what it is. Democrats know it- that’s why they’re appending “bipartisan” to it at every opportunity.
    They can pick one- “bipartisan” or “progressive”. They’re picking the one that isn’t true?
    It is not the fault of progressives that centrists refuse to promote or defend their own position. Why can’t they just be proud centrists?
    They really can’t have it both ways. They can’t claim victory on both bipartisan centrist and also progressive. We’re told again and again that the Party is to the Right of the progressive caucus. Fine! I’ll buy that. If that’s true they shouldn’t have any trouble selling it. The media narrative is absolutely primed for it- they’ll be more than willing to chime in on how progressives didn’t get what they want.

  210. 210.

    J R in WV

    November 8, 2021 at 12:24 pm

    @gene108:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I saw you post in yesterday’s morning thread. I’m fine. The worst of my issues are over. What I’m going through is more preventative to make sure it doesn’t happen again anytime soon. Thanks for the concern.

    Glad to hear your worst is behind you, prevention is a good thing. Best of luck with all of that !!

  211. 211.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 12:26 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    There’s a rock solid centrist argument for this bill. “Joe Biden brought the Parties together! They compromised! It’s business friendly AND includes some subsidies for progressive goals. It’s the art of the possible, the art of the deal, even!”

    Instead they’re going with the completely unpersuasive “it’s wildly progressive!” approach? Why?

  212. 212.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 8, 2021 at 12:30 pm

    @Kay:

    Instead they’re going with the completely unpersuasive “it’s wildly progressive!” approach? Why?

    Who’s doing that? on which issues? which aspects of the bill? There are probably about three hundred D electeds and appointees in DC alone. Who’s calling this bill “wildly progressive”?

  213. 213.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 12:36 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Endangered incumbents say they want centrism and bipartisanship. They got it!  They’re all already doing it. The D’s response to Republicans who claim it is “socialism” is “ten GOP senators backed it”. That’s good but it’s also TRUE.

    You can’t play both the progressive card and the 10 GOP senators card. Wouldn’t it be easier and more productive to sell the bipartisan centrist bill to bipartisan centrists?

  214. 214.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 8, 2021 at 12:42 pm

    Looking for claims of “wildly progressive”

    Nancy Pelosi @TeamPelosi 22h
    Democrats continue delivering For The People. The momentous steps we took will create millions of good-paying jobs and rebuild our crumbling infrastructure by:
    Repairing roads & bridges;
    Investing in public transit & rail;
    Expanding broadband;
    Delivering clean water.

  215. 215.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 8, 2021 at 12:47 pm

    @Kay: Here’s Biden’s twitter feed. I don’t see claims of “wildly progressive”. Maybe you can find them.

  216. 216.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 12:49 pm

    Jeff Stein
    @JStein_WaPo
    ·4h
    Elon Musk faces a $15 billion tax bill, which is likely the real reason he’s selling stock

    Musk’s company aggressively recruits skilled manufacturing workers where I live. Some of them take the offer. All of them then leave as soon as the bonus terms allow them to leave, because of quality problems, quality of both their coworkers and quality of the cars and quality of the management. My middle son once did electrical for a plant that had several auto companies running parts lines. He said the Tesla people were “the saddest, most pathetic group of temps I’ve ever seen”.

    It’s not good.

  217. 217.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 12:54 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Wel, then why the anger at Twitter progressives? Centrists don’t sell progressive policy. They block it.  Why insist progressives embrace a bill that isn’t particularly progressive?

    I just don’t think the normal approach to sales is “I’ll harangue this small group until they agree to buy what I’m selling”. Go forth and sell to some more receptive group. Shit, you can set it off AGAINST progressives. CNN and the NYTimes will swoon.

  218. 218.

    Kristine

    November 8, 2021 at 1:01 pm

    @Kay: Back when LiveJournal was a thing, I followed Musk’s (now ex) wife, who was also an author. Reading between lines, he gave every indication of being emotionally abusive.

    I know folks who love their Teslas, but if/when I go electric, I’ll look at every brand but.

  219. 219.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 1:14 pm

    @Kay: The anger is at the “Squad,” not the 89 Progressive Caucus members who voted for the infrastructure bill. And those  89 progressives did not vote because they had to in order  to get the BBB bill. The infrastructure bill furthers a lot of goals that all Democrats share. Anyone who can get past the  moderate vs. progressive framing that has grown up around the process, and looks at the bill’s actual contents can see this

    The now six-member Squad does not represent the Progressive side of the Democratic party. The only people who think this are their fans and Republicans.

  220. 220.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 8, 2021 at 1:17 pm

    @Kay:

    Why insist progressives embrace a bill that isn’t particularly progressive?

    How about if they just don’t troll it? Why do they always have to express their feelings and share their truths? If they’re all so skilled at social media and speak to the blessed Young People, why don’t they just sell BBB? “This is a good start, but call your Senators about ….”?

  221. 221.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 2:02 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s how Rep. Jayapal is framing it, but always in terms of a prelude to the BBB bill.

    @Geminid: I think the 89 progressives absolutely DID vote for the infrastructure bill to get to the BBB bill. There’s stuff in the infrastructure bill they wanted, but there are also provisions they would not have tolerated if not for the prospect of the BBB to address their issues.

  222. 222.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 8, 2021 at 2:04 pm

    @Betty Cracker:That’s how Rep. Jayapal is framing it, but always in terms of a prelude to the BBB bill.

    Yup. She’s been very impressive throughout, I have to say

  223. 223.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 2:38 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Can you name any of the provisions that you think the Progressives would not have tolerated? That you would not tolerate?

  224. 224.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 2:49 pm

    New York State will get an estimated $170 billion out of this infrastructure bill. Over half goes to New York City, including over $10 billion for the MTA’ subways and buses. And they need it.

    This weekend some Twitter wag posted a picture of a subway station that flooded in the July storm. They photoshopped a picture of Ocasio-Cortez in her Met Gala dress, smiling over her shoulder with water up to her waist.

  225. 225.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 2:56 pm

    @Geminid:

    I can. Core to Biden’s campaign was a promise to raise taxes to pay for new expenditures. Manchin is wrong. It isn’t about punishing rich people. It’s about reiterating that all of us have a responsibilty to pay for the modern, functioning country we enjoy (and use to make a lot of money) after 40 years of taking, taking, taking and never replenishing. It’s profound and it’s ideological. The free ride, every man for himself approach needs to be rebutted and the Right stripped it out of infrastructure as a condition for those GOP Senate votes so it has to go back into BBB.

    It’s bigger than money- we can borrow money. It’s the fundamental Democratic idea that this is a shared duty and responsibility as opposed to the conservative idea that it is not. That idea has to win.

  226. 226.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 3:03 pm

    @Geminid: Off the top of my head, there’s some funding for climate in the bill, but there’s also funding for projects that will INCREASE emissions. If the BBB passes along the lines of the current outline, that will be a non-issue, but passage of this bill removes leverage to force that issue.

    I also read that some reps (including Katie Porter, IIRC) objected to the SALT cap as passed — they wanted to limit either the max deduction itself or exempt households making less than half a million a year. As passed, it’s a huge tax cut for billionaires and multimillionaires and a revenue hit.

    I’m sure there are other issues — all the stuff that enticed Mitch McConnell to vote for it? :-)

  227. 227.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 3:23 pm

    @Betty Cracker: The SALT cap is being dealt with in the BBB bill. And as far as increasing emissions, that has often been asserted. We would certainly have fewer emmissions if enough bridges fell down, so you could say repairing them enables fossil fuel emissions. But we are moving toward electric vehicles, at least for passenger and light to medium transport anyway. And most Progressive Caucus members live in districts with a lot of road use.

    But there has been a lot of misinformation put out about this infrastructure bill, and some has stuck in people’s minds. This is in part because of the way the process fight has made it into a what moderates want, what progressives want frame that has made the proponents of the progressive wing low rate the infrastructure bill. But I checked out what Progressive Caucus members  Veronica Escobar, Joe Neguse, Katie Porter, and Jaime Raskin are saying. They are pointing to real benefits for their consttuents, and show no ambivalence about it.

    Raskin commented more generally that it would be great for working class people. He knows that these infrastructure jobs pay well. Some, like the tunnel work they will do under the Hudson to relieve rail congestion, will last for years, and once completed will take a lot of trucks off the road. And these jobs aren’t just for white men, which is another canard that gets thrown around a lot.

  228. 228.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 3:28 pm

    @Betty Cracker: McConnell voted for the bill for tactical reasons. He would have stopped this bill if he could have. It will benefit Americans generally, but the economic growth will benefit Democrats politically and McConnel knew this. He wants to choke the Biden presidency with austerity, just like he choked the Obama administration.

  229. 229.

    Betty Cracker

    November 8, 2021 at 3:34 pm

    @Geminid: I don’t need convincing. You asked me a question, and I answered it based on my recollection of what I’ve read about the wrangling over the bill. As I said above, I think Rep. Jayapal played her hand as well as anyone could have done, with the major objective being to get to the BBB because it is and always has been a two-track proposal. I believe Jayapal is speaking for everyone in the PC who voted for the bill because, while it has good stuff in it, it’s not a triumph of progressive legislation. 

  230. 230.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 3:34 pm

    @Kay: Well, that means at least one progressive wants these infrastructure initiatives paid for. I have yet to see a member of the Progressive Caucus make that argument against this bill.

  231. 231.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 3:39 pm

    @Betty Cracker: This is a process argument and a legitimate one. I am contending that in substance, this bill is something almost all Democrats want. It’s not exactly their fault that some Republicans want it also. Many more would have voted for it if McConnell and McCarthy had not whipped against it.

  232. 232.

    Kay

    November 8, 2021 at 3:53 pm

    @Geminid:

    Rob Portman and every single other Republican are certainly touting the “no taxes” line- they contrast it with the bill that raises taxes:

    The bipartisan infrastructure bill also has no tax increases. Let me repeat that. Unlike the second bill we’re going to talk about, the bipartisan infrastructure bill has no tax increases on the economy. It’s no surprise that polling data from CBS news, CNBC and others show that the vast majority of Americans, in this case 87 percent in these two polls, support investing and improving our infrastructure. For these reasons the House of Representatives need to pass this bill without delay and help us achieve this win for the American people.

    The “bipartisan” bill has all the free goodies and the “partisan” bill has all the costs, hence the ferocious organized lobbying and resistance to the partisan bill.

    Portman goes on to explain supply side theory and tout how it works- how it works is they don’t pay for anything, mumbo jumbo, each piece of pie is BIGGER although the PIE ITSELF is smaller, something, something.

  233. 233.

    dopey-o

    November 8, 2021 at 4:11 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: @Baud: The so-called progressives are on Twitter trashing the bipartisan infrastructure plan justifying their no vote. Say what you will about Manchin and Sinema, I have never seen them trash the Democratic party and Biden like the Justice Democrat Squad does.

    Gives Manchinema space to crow about voting against those dirty commie leftist dems on the squad. At least, i hope that’s Nancy Smash’s plan. Strategic hippie-punching, first down.

  234. 234.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 4:35 pm

    @Kay: Rob Portman believes in trickle down Supply Side Economics. I believe in the trickle up kind. That’s why I don’t mind if the infrastructure bill is not paid for because these are worthwhile investments that will make for a more efficient infrastructure, a future benefit. And the jobs and other economic activity will have a multiplier effect that will result in stronger revenues at all levels of government.

    Now, if I framed this as, “Their side gets what they want for free, and my side has to pay for what we want,” I would object on fairness grounds. But the way I look at this as a Democrat is, “Our side gets some of what we want for free, and our side gets some more in a bill that has revenue measures.” And while I can’t speak for anyone but myself, I think that is how most Democratic representatives see it.

  235. 235.

    debbie

    November 8, 2021 at 5:21 pm

    @Soprano2:

    Yeah, but how was dinner? ?

  236. 236.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 5:53 pm

    @Elizabelle:

     

    @Geminid: Correction. Right now Virginia Republicans have an apparent 52-48 majority in the next House of Delegates. I thought it was 51-49, and stated it incorrectly at #58.

    It does turn out that there are two races still conceivably in play. One is a Virginia Beach district where Democrat Allen Askew is hovering close to the .5% difference that allows a free recount. Virginia typically runs shipshape elections, and I think Askew would likely lose a recount.

    In the 94th District, Democratic Delegate Martha Mugler was 94 votes down when counting ended Friday, out of ~27,000 votes cast. She conceded, but the next day she rescinded her concession. She said she had been told that the count was faulty, and correcting it could shift a substantial number of votes. The current Speaker, Eileen Filler-Corn, walked her back her concession as to a majority as well.

    I hope Delegate Mugler prevails. The 94th had been in Republican hands for years before she flipped it in 2019. But it looks like Speaker Filler-Corn will likely be Minority Leader for a while. Virginia Democrats can make her Speaker again in 2023, and I believe we will.

  237. 237.

    Geminid

    November 8, 2021 at 7:15 pm

    @Geminid: And one more medium term wrinkle in the Virginia House of Delegates situation: There could be another election next year, on a map based on the 2020 Census. The Census data came out too late for this election. State Senator Scott Surovel says that there are good grounds under the Equal Protection clause to require a new election, because these districts vary too much in population. I expect that there will be a lawsuit, perhaps by a resident of fast-growing Loudon County.  Mr. Surovell is a capable attorney and may be right. In any event, the new map, whenever it can be produced, will be in place in 2023. The State Senate elections wil be that year.

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