Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

I was promised a recession.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

Let there be snark.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

The GOP couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

You are here: Home / Civil Rights / Criminal Justice / Verdict Reached Three Murderers Convicted (Updated)

Verdict Reached Three Murderers Convicted (Updated)

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The jury deliberating the fate of the three men who killed Ahmaud Arbery has returned a verdict after 11 hours. Here’s an open thread to discuss it. Will update the post when we know what the verdict is.

UPDATE:

Travis McMichael: malice murder — guilty; felony murder — guilty; aggravated assault — guilty; false imprisonment — guilty; criminal intent to commit a felony — guilty.

Gregory McMichael: malice murder — not guilty; felony murder — guilty; aggravated assault — guilty; false imprisonment — guilty; criminal intent to commit a felony — guilty.

William “Roddie” Bryan Jr.: malice murder — not guilty; felony murder — not guilty one count/guilty other counts; aggravated assault — not guilty/guilty; false imprisonment — guilty; criminal intent to commit a felony — guilty.

Travis McMichael was found guilty on all charges. Gregory McMichael and W.R. Bryan were both convicted of felony murder but acquitted of some other charges. All now face the possibility of life imprisonment without parole.

Reader Interactions

237Comments

  7. 7.

    Old School

    Travis McMichael guilty on all counts

    Gregory McMichael guilty on 8 of 9 charges

    William Bryan guilty on 6 of 9 charges.

  15. 15.

    toon

    @debbie:

    Father found not guilty on the count of “malice murder”, but was guilty of “felony murder” as well as the other counts.

  18. 18.

    debbie

    @indycat32:

    Per Wikipedia: Malice murder is a criminal offense in the U.S. state of Georgia, committed when a homicide is done with express or implied malice.

  23. 23.

    hueyplong

    I’m guessing they didn’t care for the openly racist comments of defense counsel about the victim and the people attending the trial (“black pastors”).

  25. 25.

    ceece

    The jury had no trouble interpreting this as murder, but didn’t the cops that saw the video wait to make arrests until after the video went public? I would like to see more discussion of this aspect, and investigation of the local police dept.

  26. 26.

    Elizabelle

    Thank you, jury.  Does not bring Ahmaud back, but it’s justice for his loved ones.  And for us all.

  31. 31.

    raven

    William “Roddie” Bryan Jr., one of three men, accused of killing 25-year-old Ahmaud Arbery, has been found guilty of felony murder.

  32. 32.

    lowtechcyclist

    @ceece:

    didn’t the cops that saw the video wait to make arrests until after the video went public? I would like to see more discussion of this aspect, and investigation of the local police dept.

    Seconded.

  39. 39.

    Fair Economist

    @ceece: Amen. That’s a pretty crooked police department, to not quickly file charges on such an obvious case. Maybe you could argue about murder, but it was really obvious those three guys were doing a lot of illegal things (assault, attempted kidnapping, etc.).

  40. 40.

    janesays

    @Fair Economist: Actually, it was both the father and the third guy found not guilty on malice murder (the son was the only one found guilty on that specific charge), but both were found guilty of felony murder. Not 100% sure what the difference is, or what the difference is in severity of sentence.

  43. 43.

    Felanius Kootea

    Oh God I’m relieved. I wasn’t surprised by the Rittenhouse verdict but if this one had gone the other way I’d have been gutted.

  44. 44.

    Ken

    I’m sure ALEC and Federalist Society think-tanks are already working on proposals to make spree-killing legal; at least, if done by the right people.

  45. 45.

    Benw

    Thank goodness.

    The cops and DA let these murderers walk for MONTHS before the video went viral and activists forced the DA’s office to move.

  48. 48.

    hotshoe

    Hooray. Thank god. Something right has been done, which cannot undo the wrongful murder those men did, but at least doesn’t let them walk away thinking they were the good guys instead of the baddies.

  49. 49.

    zzyzx

    As someone who has been known to sometimes push himself while running and does so in neighborhoods he doesn’t live in, hearing a defense of “Arbery was booking it. It wasn’t like he was slow jogging,” pissed me off so much. People who don’t look like me are allowed to run too!

  50. 50.

    hueyplong

    @janesays: Felony murder is probably where, as part of a felony you committed, someone got killed.  Think of robberies in which someone got killed but all the robbers get charged.

    Malice murder is on you, doing it intentionally/with evil intent/etc

  54. 54.

    raven

    @hueyplong:

    Georgia statute

    a) A person commits the offense of murder when he unlawfully and with malice aforethought, either express or implied, causes the death of another human being.

    (b) Express malice is that deliberate intention unlawfully to take the life of another human being which is manifested by external circumstances capable of proof. Malice shall be implied where no considerable provocation appears and where all the circumstances of the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

    (c) A person commits the offense of murder when, in the commission of a felony, he or she causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.

    (d) A person commits the offense of murder in the second degree when, in the commission of cruelty to children in the second degree, he or she causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.

    (e) (1) A person convicted of the offense of murder shall be punished by death, by imprisonment for life without parole, or by imprisonment for life.

    (2) A person convicted of the offense of murder in the second degree shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than ten nor more than 30 years.

  55. 55.

    Fair Economist

    @janesays: Roughly, it means the jury thought it’s not proven that they intended for Arbery to be killed. (Not that they’re proven innocent of intent either; innocent until proven guilty). But just the fact of Arbery’s death partly due to their felonious actions makes them guilty of felony murder, regardless of intent. Pretty plausible, all told; we know the triggerman intended to kill him because of the circumstances of the firing, but we can’t *know* the intents of the other two.

  56. 56.

    Brachiator

    Travis McMichael was found guilty on all charges. Gregory McMichael and W.R. Bryan were both convicted of felony murder but acquitted of some other charges. All now face the possibility of life imprisonment without parole.

    I am sitting near the elevator at the doctor’s office sending some text messages. A woman and her mother came by and were waiting to take the elevator down. I said excuse me and mentioned that there had been a verdict. They had not heard. When I told them, the mother said, simply and emphatically, “Good!”

  62. 62.

    eclare

    1. One of the saddest things I’ve read was in our neighborhood newsletter, maybe last summer.  A woman in my neighborhood said her grandson was staying with her for a while as he went to college.  He likes to jog at night, when it cools off.  They are Black in a majority White neighborhood.  She asked us to not be afraid, not call the cops, he is a good kid, just jogging.

    Broke my heart.  Still does.

  63. 63.

    Mary G

    @geg6: Happy Birthday indeed. Some people still believe in the rule of law. Not many years ago that I would’ve been astonished at this happening in Georgia and the Rittenhouse circus in Wisconsin.

  66. 66.

    Barbara

    @ceece: They did more than that, and it wasn’t just the police, but the DAs.  One of these guys — the father? — had worked with the police or in the DA’s office.  At any rate, most of the people reviewing the evidence knew him.  That clearly had an impact on how this was handled.  The state took it over pretty quickly once the video was made public.​

  67. 67.

    Ken

    @raven: “theft by taking”.

    So I looked that up to see the nuances, and that led me to the legal definitions of other forms of theft.  It has reinforced my opinion that a large fraction of our laws are the result of centuries of legislatures responding to the equivalent of a six-year old saying “You said not to touch it, so I wore gloves.”

  69. 69.

    Kay

    @rikyrah:

    “The sentence for felony murder and malice murder is exactly the same,” said University of Georgia law professor emeritus Ron Carlson. “It is a distinction without a difference in terms of punishment.”The minimum penalty is life in prison. It is up to the judge to decide whether that comes with or without the possibility of parole. Even if the possibility of parole is granted, a person convicted of murder must serve 30 years before becoming eligible.

  70. 70.

    Roger Moore

    @janesays:

    Not 100% sure what the difference is, or what the difference is in severity of sentence.

    As I understand it, malice murder means the prosecution can prove specific intent to kill.  Felony murder is any murder that happens during the course of committing a felony that a reasonable person would know creates the danger of death, even if the prosecution can’t prove specific intent to kill.  This case is actually a good one to see the distinction.  The prosecution could only prove intent to kill for the actual killer, but they could prove the whole gang were involved in other felonies that could and did result in his death.  In most states- including Georgia, IIRC- felony murder is still considered first degree, so the potential penalty would include death or life without parole.  The killers are likely to spend the rest of their lives in prison unless they can win on appeal.

  72. 72.

    ceece

    @Barbara: thanks for the details. I remembered how the arrests were delayed, but not that McMichael had worked with the police before.

    I hope there is a state and federal investigation into the delay.

  73. 73.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: You mentioned the body cam video in this case the other day, and I looked it up on YouTube. JFC. I’ve got to think that played a huge role in the conviction, their demeanor in that situation.

  76. 76.

    Ken

    @WaterGirl: I guess you can murder someone with a “no hard feelings” attitude?????

    The serial killer loophole.  “But Your Honor, I had no malice in my heart. I was wearing clown makeup and laughed the entire time.”

  78. 78.

    Barbara

    I am relieved but I will never stop thinking how needless and cruel this was. That these guys took it upon themselves to stop and kill Arbery because they thought they had the right to do it. A high profile conviction was definitely needed to reinforce the point that individuals don’t get to make up their own legal code on the spot and enforce it on others at the point of a gun.​​

  79. 79.

    Roger Moore

    @WaterGirl:

    I guess you can murder someone with a “no hard feelings” attitude?????

    You might commit murder by extreme recklessness or (as is the case for some of the defendants in this case) by committing a felony that results in death, even if you didn’t mean that death to happen.  If you kidnap someone with the intention of holding them for ransom, but they suffocate because you did a bad job of it, you’re guilty of murder even though you had a strong motivation to keep them alive.

  84. 84.

    henqiguai

    @raven (#63):

    @CaseyL: Tell me who the two senators from Georgia are before you start with the sweeping generalizations.

    Oh, come on, raven, you aren’t that naive.

  85. 85.

    Redshift

    @ceece:

    The jury had no trouble interpreting this as murder, but didn’t the cops that saw the video wait to make arrests until after the video went public? I would like to see more discussion of this aspect, and investigation of the local police dept. 

    Especially since part of the defense was “we were just trying to keep him there until the cops arrived, why would he try to fight that?” Yeah, no reason to worry about Officer Friendly-to-Murderers..

  86. 86.

    JoyceH

    I came here to say that now local law enforcement needs to be investigated and reformed but I see others got there first.

  87. 87.

    JPL

    I’m really enjoying listening to the wsb channel interviewing people.  Both Ajc and the local ABC station are owned by Cox and their coverage was outstanding.

  88. 88.

    hotshoe

    @Fair Economist:

    I’m a little white-haired lady.

    If the cops came around a corner and found me with a shotgun and a bloody dead guy at my feet, I sure as hell would expect them to “invite” me down to the station for a little discussion about the circumstances. I wouldn’t expect the color of my skin or my fragile age to give me an exemption.

    What is it about ugly white boys that you can catch them literally with a smoking gun and they still get to walk away free? What is it about the law officers who don’t seem to think their job includes detaining ugly white boys?

  89. 89.

    Anonymous At Work

    May they stay in prison until true criminal justice reform is had.

    Sadly, to be a downer, or until the next Republican President runs on the Jefferson Davis re-run platform.

  90. 90.

    Martin

    @WaterGirl: I always understood it was akin to hate crime legislation. Murdering someone because they were in your way as you were fleeing some other crime, or in the commission of a robbery vs. ‘I hate you personally’, or ‘I hate your kind’.

    The dude in Waukesha is getting murder charges not manslaughter because it was deliberate, not careless, but not ‘with malice’ (if they even have that category in the state) charges because who the victims were wasn’t relevant to his motive.

  92. 92.

    Fair Economist

    @JoyceH: The point could use some repetition

    Edit: oh, and the fact that the cops stood around chatting with the murderers WHILE ARBERY WAS DYING and did nothing to help him deserves some investigatin’ too.

  96. 96.

    PaulWartenberg

    It’s hard to say “At least some justice is served” because racial injustice is still out there, and there are more hurdles to overcome before all this senseless violence ends.

  97. 97.

    Barbara

    @Roger Moore:  Felony murder would be something like hitting a pedestrian in a car as you flee the scene of a robbery — a death resulting from an action that was part of or furthered a felony.

  98. 98.

    PST

    I remember from law school we discussed a variety of hypothetical cases under the felony murder rule. For example, you and your partner in crime decide to rob a bank using unloaded pistols. You intend to threaten but not commit violence. A bank guard shoots your partner, killing him, and you surrender. You would be guilty of murder under the felony murder rule because your felony led to a death and you should have known that something like that could happen. I am not claiming that this would be the outcome under the current statutory law of Georgia or any other state, but it was the kind of circumstance that the professors would use as illustration.

  99. 99.

    Hungry Joe

    Such a relief.

    Not particularly important question: Why were they each convicted on three counts of felony murder when only one person was killed?

  100. 100.

    WaterGirl

    @Roger Moore: Yeah, I know that.  But the definition I was referring to was this:

    Per Wikipedia: Malice murder is a criminal offense in the U.S. state of Georgia, committed when a homicide is done with express or implied malice.

    Not sure how you can commit homicide with no hard feelings.  I would think manslaughter – where, say, you were tired or distracted and you killed someone with your car – would not be referred to as HOMICIDE.

    But it doesn’t matter, it just seemed like odd wording.

  102. 102.

    Kay

    This is what killed the “each parent gets to run the school” thing in the 1990’s, too, the last time they rolled it out.
    The near-immediate realization that a lot of parents are horrible and have bad ideas:

    The Exceptional Children department at East Chapel Hill High School is in turmoil, with several department educators expressing concern over recent administrative actions. According to these educators, several complaints have been filed with the Human Resources Department at Chapel Hill-Carrboro City Schools as two Teacher’s Assistants (TAs) were asked to move out of a classroom because of their race. Darrell Parker has been a Teacher’s Assistant in East Chapel Hill’s Exceptional Children department for nearly 20 years. Recently, however, Parker said he has been pushed in and out of his regular classroom after one parent requested that their child doesn’t work with African American males. “So, I’m saying to myself, since when can parents pick and choose who works with their children,” Parker said.

  105. 105.

    Roger Moore

    @Anonymous At Work:

    May they stay in prison until true criminal justice reform is had.

    I really like that formulation.  This is one of those things that’s always a bit of a problem for me.  On the one hand, I think our criminal justice system is too harsh.  On the other hand, I don’t think we should start being more lenient the moment it’s someone conservatives are sympathetic too in the dock.  Saying that these people should stay in prison until we get criminal justice reform is a good way of expressing that we need a less harsh system but these people shouldn’t get to jump the queue in taking advantage.

  107. 107.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Hungry Joe:

    Not particularly important question: Why were they each convicted on three counts of felony murder when only one person was killed?

    This is probably the stupidest answer in the world, and illustrates why IANAL, but the only thing I can think of is that there were three shots and perhaps unclear which one of those was the fatal shot.

    There must be an answer out there that actually makes sense, though.

  108. 108.

    Roger Moore

    @Barbara:

    I was thinking of burning down the house as arson, and the person who died being the result of that felony.  But IIRC there are specific rules about death coming as a result of arson because arson can result in something so completely out of control.

  109. 109.

    Barbara

    @Hungry Joe: Every felony that they committed was felony murder because Arbery died. So if they had been acquitted on any of the felony counts it would not have supported felony murder. Prosecutors aren’t required to guess when they charge, but three separate counts is unlikely to make a difference in sentencing.  It could make it harder for Ds to get out from under FM in total — they would need to get all felony counts reversed on appeal.

  110. 110.

    germy

    Reader comment from DN Nation, at LGM:

    An unsaid assumption of Pleizar’s Law (“the media likes Republicans and wants them to win”) is that our media betters will leave cold hard cash on the table just to promote Republicans, or Trump, or white people, or whatever. Which is how “Trump pays off a porn star who said he’s hung like a horsefly” is somehow BOOOOORRING but “Hillary Clinton’s email policy” is promoted like the biggest story evar. Our media even fails the if-it-leads-it-bleeds test if all they’re doing is bolstering bog-standard conservatism.

    That said, the Headline News chyrons for this trial were “JOGGER MURDER.” This case was a tragedy, but it has interesting historical threads throughout, full of content to mine, villains to yell at, systems to analyze, and the best you can come up with is “jogger murder,” like it’s item C on the evening news? The network of Nancy Grace can’t raise its voice just a LITTLE for this story?

    Because no. That would offend mee-maw and pop-pop. And so it’s just a little ol’ jogger murder, the thing that happens all the time.

  113. 113.

    Kay

    @Hungry Joe:

    They don’t have to take part in the murder. They just have to be convicted of the commission of a felony that resulted in a death, and they were.

  114. 114.

    snoey

    @germy:
    They should get multiple life sentences each, and if they do skip the Federal trial. Being in the courtroom would be a good day for them.​

  115. 115.

    Old School

    @Hungry Joe:

    Not particularly important question: Why were they each convicted on three counts of felony murder when only one person was killed?

    I wondered that as well.  The answer is that they were each charged with four felonies – aggravated assault (two counts), false imprisonment, and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment.  A felony murder charge accompanied each of the other charges.

    ETA: The assault charges were from 1) shotgun and 2) their trucks.

  116. 116.

    Roger Moore

    @WaterGirl:

    Homicide just means someone’s actions result in death.  For example, a death from a traffic accident is a homicide (vehicular homicide).  So is death resulting from self-defense (justifiable homicide).  As an example, the LA Times Homicide Blog (an example of really great public service journalism) lists both traffic fatalities and officer-involved shootings that are ruled to be justified.  They’re all homicides, even though they aren’t all murders.

  117. 117.

    Kay

    @Barbara:

    The state spent a lot of time on false imprisonment so my sense listening was they were swinging for the fences – they wanted all of it. They worked every part of it equally hard, took nothing for granted.

  118. 118.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    Like everyone else, I’m very relieved that these three men are facing justice for murdering Arbery. It won’t bring him back, but this verdict is necessary not just so the murderers face consequences but so the message is sent that no one can just make up their own laws, execute another person, and get away with it

  119. 119.

    glory b

    @ceece: My recall isn’t perfect, but I believe one of them (the father?) used to be an investigator for the DA’s office, and worked with the DA it was assigned to. She wouldn’t give the go-ahead to indict, after A LOT of protesting, she stepped down and the next DA charged them.

  120. 120.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Roger Moore:

    I get the feeling whenever I watch them that a lot of police procedurals use “homicide” as a synonym for murder. And this was something I always thought it meant too. Learn something new everyday on Balloon Juice

  121. 121.

    ceece

    @glory b: thanks for the info.

    That DA’s office should be investigated, including old cases, then. Not to mention anything that McMichael was working on.

  122. 122.

    Cermet

    Tragic – these racist goons murdered an innocent man taking his life and ruining so many family members lives of that man; they also ruined their own lives and their families’ as well. This is just horrible all around. Glad justice was served and this becomes a warning to other racist goons that they had better not try this either.

  123. 123.

    Roger Moore

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka:

    From the police POV, a homicide is something that might be a murder and needs to be investigated.  It might turn out that the circumstances of the homicide make it not criminal, but you can only figure that out by investigating.  A recent notable example of this is the case of Kyle Rittenhouse.  It was undisputed that he shot and killed two people, which made those deaths homicide, but it took a jury trial to determine whether the killings were criminal or not.

  124. 124.

    Kay

    Carl Quintanilla
    @carlquintanilla
    · 2h
    Some Q4 GDP forecasts:
    * Atlanta Fed: 8.6%
    * Morgan Stanley: 8.7%
    * JPMorgan: 7.0%
    * Capital Econ: 6.5%

    Well I don’t know about the 70% of the country who have apparently been brainwashed into believing they are destitute, but I, personally, will be making some money here in reality-land :)

  125. 125.

    glory b

    @Fair Economist: Remember, the cops did the same when they shot Tamir Rice (the 12 year old with the toy gun, that they said they thought was in his mid 20’s), an off duty FBI agent who was passing by tried to render aid to him, but it was too late.

    When his 16 year old sister ran out of the community center in the park, they handcuffed her while she cried for them to help her brother

    Coincidentally, the anniversary of his death was 2 days ago.

  126. 126.

    J R in WV

    @Fair Economist:

    The point could use some repetition

    Edit: oh, and the fact that the cops stood around chatting with the murderers WHILE ARBERY WAS DYING and did nothing to help him deserves some investigatin’ too.

    This also too.

    Eleven hours in the jury room, with so many charges and 3 defendants, much of that time could have been eaten up by voting on each charge, and keeping close records of what they decided each time.

    So they look to me like they did a good job with little disagreement.

  127. 127.

    Roger Moore

    @Kay:

    As I understand it, the majority of the country thinks they personally are doing OK.  It’s just that a majority also thinks that the country as a whole is doing badly.  I assume the people who think the country as a whole is doing badly includes most of the people who are doing badly themselves but also a substantial number of people who are doing OK.

  128. 128.

    The Thin Black Duke

    Thank God. I wasn’t sure that the jurors were going to do the right thing. I love it when JUSTICE happens. I could get used to it.

  131. 131.

    Benw

    @glory b: the cops say the DA told them not to arrest, and the DA’s office denies it. All assholes. The dad and DA’s son knew each other, so the DA recused himself, and it went to the ATL DA’s office, who ALSO didn’t do anything for a *month* until the video went viral and the protests started.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ahmaud_Arbery

    The crazy thing is that one of the murderer’s gave the video to a local radio station. I assume because the cops/DA made it pretty clear by then they were going to let them walk. Whoops, idiot.

  133. 133.

    CindyH

    @Kay: Holy shit – my daughter graduated from ECHHS in 2020 (class of covid).  I am stunned and never expected that here.  It’s a tough school academically and now I realize even worse, it’s a white privilege school.  I am so sad, but glad to know.

  134. 134.

    Edmund Dantes

    People need to watch some of the 1sf amendment audit YouTube channels (yes they tend to be white mostly and some a little too sovereign citizen) but you’ll quickly disabuse yourself of the notion cops are knowledgeable at all and most of them are driven by ego trips.

    And how super selective cops are as to when they do and don’t go full blown on people.

  138. 138.

    Geminid

    @Kay: I wonder if the prosecution’s emphasis on the false imprisonment charge was intended to obviate T. McMichael’s plea of self defense. McMichael did not just encounter Mr. Arbery, he trapped him.

  140. 140.

    Roger Moore

    @Benw:

    The crazy thing is that one of the murderer’s gave the video to a local radio station. I assume because the cops/DA made it pretty clear by then they were going to let them walk. Whoops, idiot.

    Doing this stuff publicly is part of the message.  Yes, the most obvious message of a lynching is that you can be killed because of who you are.  But the secondary message is that the authorities are either complicit or incapable of stopping the killing.  To have its full effect, a lynching must be public.

  143. 143.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Kay:

    Is there some state or federal (or local) entity that could get involved in this and stop this? It sounds like blatant racial discrimination

  146. 146.

    Kay

    @CindyH:

    I don’t think it reflects on the whole school, as in everyone who goes there and works there. It’s the nuttiness that comes out of the ridiculous idea that each parent can run a public school. That was never going to work. This is one horrible parent who made a lot of noise and they should have stood up to the parent and didn’t.

    Our local superintendent (who is usually very ‘political’ – it’s a conservative area) just shut down complaints about masks. He said there would be masks and that was it- it’s his decision, in the same way he makes 5 other decisions a day that some parents disagree with. They just have to have the courage to do that.

  148. 148.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Kay:

    I always find the idea that parents don’t have a say at all in how public schools are run ridiculous. Their vote is just as good as everyone else’s and if they really wanted to, they could run for a seat on the school board. That’s having a say in how schools are run.

    What they don’t get to do (or at least shouldn’t), is obsessively try to micromanage every aspect of school policy and curriculum, or try to impose their bullshit, batshit beliefs on everybody else

  149. 149.

    CindyH

    @Kay: Yeah, but I would have expected them to stand up to this – I am disgusted that they gave any deference to this awful parent.  I agree with your assessment but it hits close to home and came as a shock.

  150. 150.

    burnspbesq

    @Kay:

    If they choose to listen to Varney, and miss out on the opportunity to cash in, that’s on them. I’ll be happy to wave at them as I drive by in the Porsche purchased with my Q4 gains.

  151. 151.

    Ken

    @Roger Moore: As I understand it, the majority of the country thinks they personally are doing OK.  It’s just that a majority also thinks that the country as a whole is doing badly.

    “Oh, sure, things are great here, but I heard Portland has been burned to the ground, and most of California is a no-go area….”

  152. 152.

    Low Key Swagger

    In the academy they used to say “all murders are homicides, but not all homicides are murder.

    I’ve lived in rural Georgia.  It can be clannish as hell and the D.A. was well aware of it.

  153. 153.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Kay:

    after one parent requested that their child doesn’t work with African American males. 

    I see that school has some garbage parents.  Someone remind the trash of the war they lost 156 years ago.  Oh wait.  They never forgot about it.

  155. 155.

    Skepticat

    @The Thin Black Duke: I wasn’t sure that the jurors were going to do the right thing. I love it when JUSTICE happens. I could get used to it.

    I felt the same, and I so profoundly, desperately want to get used to it. It was terrifying to be almost surprised by this verdict.

  158. 158.

    Ken

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): What they don’t get to do (or at least shouldn’t), is obsessively try to micromanage every aspect of school policy and curriculum

    Pity the school doesn’t have extra staff. They could assign someone to call that parent every time a question arose.  “The cafeteria is putting together the menu for next week, will tater tots be acceptable?”

    Perhaps they could find a volunteer.

  159. 159.

    Kay

    @Geminid:

    This was like a murder trial for the shooter and then a trial on each felony charge for each of the other two. They had a “citizen’s arrest” defense to the underlying felony charges, but they didn’t really have two of the three elements, so “sort of”. Georgia had a citizen’s arrest law at the time and that was still at issue at the period of the trial I was listening to (it later went away because the judge gutted it as not applying) but she needed a felony conviction for felony murder, so she focused on getting a felony conviction.

  161. 161.

    Benw

    @Roger Moore:

    To have its full effect, a lynching must be public.

    I get your point. But there’s also a new-ish aspect to this, where the killers and associated cops don’t want it TOO public, because a viral video that galvanizes the public has started getting some traction in creating trials that result in convictions.

  162. 162.

    Kay

    @Geminid:

    It was headspinning at one point because the state needed a felony but so did the defense. The defense needed Arbery to be committing a felony for the “citizen’s arrest” defense, which they floated but the judge essentially shut that down. They were just throwing some felonies out there “maybe…carjacking?”

    Judge is like “nah, not going down that road”.

  163. 163.

    Ken

    @Patricia Kayden: Gregory McMichael is a former cop & investigator for the DA

    Does that mean he’ll be serving his minimum 30-year sentence in solitary confinement, for his own protection? I am torn….

  166. 166.

    debbie

    So I’m googling around because I can’t remember how the video was leaked. Google’s telling me it was a defense attorney acting on behalf of the defendants. Did he think it would create sympathy for the murderers?

  167. 167.

    different-church-lady

    THANK ‘EFFIN GOD. Straight up street execution, no gray area. Anything else would have been not just a complete miscarriage of justice, but of humanity itself.

  168. 168.

    Kay

    Greg Sargent
    @ThePlumLineGS
    ·5h
    Awful: Trump didn’t just say he invited Rittenhouse to Mar-a-Lago. Trump also said he never should have stood trial at all. This unmasks the truth about the right’s lionization of Rittenhouse: It’s all about valorizing vigilantism as *good.*

    I don’t know what Rittenhouse wants but this is definitely what his fans want- they want self defense to not even have to be adjudicated. You’ll submit to the demands of the self-appointed “authority” with the weapon or they can kill you with no consequences. The authority over you comes from the gun.

  172. 172.

    Old School

    @debbie:

    So I’m googling around because I can’t remember how the video was leaked. Google’s telling me it was a defense attorney acting on behalf of the defendants. Did he think it would create sympathy for the murderers?

    …

    Channel 2 investigative reporter Mark Winne has confirmed that Greg McMichael leaked the video to a radio station, starting the avalanche of attention that landed him in jail on murder charges with his son.
    Brunswick attorney Alan Tucker says Greg McMichael wanted to clear up some rumors circulating in the community and he had no idea the video would spark global outrage.
    “He had that tape by himself. He delivered it. We have questions about the length of it,” L. Chris Stewart, attorney for Arbery’s family, told Winne.
    Tucker says his parents live in Satilla Shores, and he hoped when the video was viewed by the public, it would ease racial tensions in the community.

  173. 173.

    PAM Dirac

    @WaterGirl: From the linked article:

    Johnson is charged with obstruction of a police officer, which is a misdemeanor. On the day of the Feb. 23, 2020 shooting, the indictment says she allegedly instructed two Glynn County police officers not to arrest Travis McMichael, the man who shot and killed Arbery.
    She is also indicted for allegedly violating her oath of office, a felony, for “showing favor and affection” to Greg McMichael, who is Travis McMichael’s father and is also charged in the case. Johnson failed “to treat Ahmaud Arbery and his family fairly and with dignity,” the indictment states.

    The article also says she lost her re-election bid in 2020.

  174. 174.

    Warblewarble

    The injustice of it.The murderers will be unable to accept internships from republican congressmen. Where is the proper American justice.

  176. 176.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Kay:

    Yup. Just once I’d like somebody to ask these Republican politicians who praise Rittenhouse why they’re praising him. You shouldn’t praise someone who, as they claim, killed in self-defense. That’s not something to be proud of. Killing in self-defense is a necessary evil as far as I’m concerned.

  179. 179.

    scav

    The fact that Greg McMichael thought that video showed them in a good, calming and justified light merely serves as irrefutable evidence as to the profound rootedness of his abandoned and malignant heart.  As does that bleating that they honestly thought they were doing the right thing.  Their very instincts being depraved is no justification Mr Lawyer.

  181. 181.

    brendancalling

    I hope they die in prison, whether it takes a few days or 70 years—same as I feel about the Charlottesville Nazis, who are also going away for (hopefully) the rest of their lives.

    Bye bye racist scum!

  182. 182.

    brendancalling

    @Warblewarble: be kind. Nestor’s getting older and Matt Gaetz likes ‘em on the young side if the allegations are true.

    I’m going to Hell for that one…

  183. 183.

    raven

    Broadway star James D. Beeks has been arrested for his involvement in the riot at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6.

    The 49-year-old Broadway actor, who most recently played Judas in the U.S. touring production of “Jesus Christ Superstar,” was charged with obstruction of Congress and entering a restricted building, according to a complaint from the U.S. Attorney’s Office.

  187. 187.

    debbie

    @Old School:

    Tucker says his parents live in Satilla Shores, and he hoped when the video was viewed by the public, it would ease racial tensions in the community.

    I’m speechless.

  188. 188.

    Geminid

    @brendancalling: The only one of the Charlottesville nazis who will spend life in prison is the one who drove the car that killed Heather Heyer. Four men are serving 2 to 3 years in a state penitentiary, and one got a term of 7-8 years.

    The defendants in the civil trial that ended yesterday may spend the rest of their lives dodging garnishment, though.

  189. 189.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    You shouldn’t praise someone who, as they claim, killed in self-defense.

    They’ve devolved to the point that any expression of remorse, which a human should feel after killing another human or living thing, is a sign of weakness and/or admission of guilt. It’s profoundly sociopathic.

  191. 191.

    Kelly

    In other legal news Oregon’s Congressional redistricting was upheld today. Oregon gained a seat. The new map should yield a 5D-1R delegation. Four D seats should be very solid Democrats and one seat will be held by my Congressman Kurt Schrader. Blue Dog/Problem Solver Schrader makes very annoying noises but always votes with the rest of the Democrats if we need him to.

    https://www.opb.org/article/2021/11/24/judicial-panel-upholds-oregon-democrats-new-congressional-districts/

  192. 192.

    WaterGirl

    @debbie: Ease the tensions of the white boys in the community who want to see black men put in their place, and murdered.  It makes perfect sense if you think about their perspective.

    The only people that matter are the white people.  For that matter, people like this may not even think of black people as actual human beings that matter.

    It makes me sick.

  193. 193.

    TriassicSands

    @debbie: For me, it’s redemptive. There really is still hope.

    I wish that were true, but I view it as more like the eye of a hurricane. Only the approaching side has no end in sight.

    This case was so outrageous that I don’t think it was a genuine test of racial justice. I wish that weren’t the case.

    Still, it doesn’t cause any further harm and it certainly doesn’t hurt to put a limit on vigilantism and gun-toting racists. That part is wonderful news.

  195. 195.

    different-church-lady

    @TriassicSands: ​

    This case was so outrageous that I don’t think it was a genuine test of racial justice. I wish that weren’t the case.

    In a post-Trump America even “ass v. elbow” is advanced level SAT kinds of shit.

  196. 196.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): These days, they *do* praise people for killing in self defense – remember Zimmerman? – but more importantly, many of them viewed Rittenhouse’s actions as among the first of many shots in a war.

    Remember, today’s Republicans are Trumpian in their use of absolutist language. January 6th is downplayed because of “all the cities burned down by BLM and antifa!” (NB: “antifa” is not a proper noun, and should not be capitalized – Republicans suck at language, because they don’t think words have meanings.)

    From their perspective, Rittenhouse was “fighting to prevent another city from being burned down”. That no cities have been burned down doesn’t really matter – they really do seem to hold the opinion that lots of people need to die before they can have the America they desire. And why not? They don’t care about the words they speak; why think they’d care about the words in the Declaration and Constitution?

  198. 198.

    SiubhanDuinne

    “The spirit of Ahmaud
    defeated the lynch mob.”

    A chant led by Rev Ben Crump outside the Glynn County Courthouse.

    ETA: Sorry, he’s not a Rev, he’s an Atty.

  199. 199.

    TheQuietOne

    Major police reform is needed more now than ever. I keep going back to the fact the father was in law enforcement before he retired and STILL didn’t realize what they were doing was wrong!!! Speaks volumes to the number of officers that need to be gone.

  200. 200.

    scav

    It’s also evidence (unnecessary to some, granted) as to how pervasive — dare I advance, systematic? — the rot is?  Not just the police, tally up the DAs that were profoundly and determinedly fine with not even bothering to arrest these upstanding citizens.

  202. 202.

    Scout211

    In other legal proceedings news:  The outtakes for The Celebrity Apprentice will be viewed by lawyers in a lawsuit.  After a year, the judge ordered the viewing, which will be in a secret room.  Source

     

    After more than a year of delays, a team of attorneys will finally make a trip to Los Angeles next month to review highly guarded, never-before-seen outtakes of Celebrity Apprentice—seeking any evidence that the Trump family knew they were suckering people into investing in a scam.

    On Tuesday, a federal judge in New York City ordered that the movie studio Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer make the footage available at a secure location, potentially ending a long-running battle that’s still draped in secrecy.

    MGM won’t say what’s in the tapes or why it could be so damaging to make public. It’s not even clear why the movie studio is fighting so hard to keep unaired footage of Trump’s old show under wraps. And in court filings made last week, the Beverly Hills studio would only describe what’s in the tapes in a document that remains sealed from public view.

    But lawyers for these four scorned entrepreneurs, know what they’re looking for: anything that shows Donald Trump and his kids knew that they were duping would-be investors by leading them to ACN, a multi-level marketing company based in North Carolina.

    Trump and his kids—Don Jr., Ivanka, and Eric—were the top recurring characters of The Apprentice, playing the role of business judges. During the show, the family featured ACN as a promising investment, even having celebrities compete to produce a commercial for the company’s supposedly high-tech new video chatting phone, the “Iris 5000.” In reality, the tech was a dud and the company was facing financial turmoil—but viewers weren’t told that.

    The lawsuit was filed in 2018 by four entrepreneurs who say they were suckered into joining ACN’s multi-level marketing scheme—and lost time and money doing it—as a result of the Trumps’ endorsements. Lynn Chadwick of Pennsylvania says she was duped into the program in 2013, while Catherine McKoy and Millard Williams of California started in 2014. Markus Frazier of Maryland says he signed up in 2016. None of them stuck around past year two.

  205. 205.

    Kay

    Will Stancil
    @whstancil
    ·2h
    The result has been years of comically asymmetric political warfare: the GOP spreads potent lies with ease, swapping in new ones whenever convenient, while Dems are constantly on Step 2 of a 12-step plan to use various exhibits and demonstrations to disprove the GOP’s last lie

    I know you-all will get mad at me but what part of that is not true? I laughed at the part I bolded
    IN SAD RECOGNITION :)
    You know it’s true.

  206. 206.

    TriassicSands

     

    @Fair Economist: Maybe you could argue about murder, but it was really obvious those three guys were doing a lot of illegal things (assault, attempted kidnapping, etc.).

    Ahem, they were just trying to make a perfectly reasonable “citizen’s arrest.” Any reasonable, racist POS could see that.

    As we march on toward a fully armed (and stupid) citizenry, I can hardly wait for the day when everyone is trying to arrest everyone else. Who needs police?

    If these murderous idiots had really been concerned about Arbery’s activities, they could have called police and followed him. Instead, all swollen up with the power of their gun(s) and devoid of any useful intelligence, they decided they were the police in pursuit of someone who just had to be a criminal.

    The shooter should get life in prison with no chance of parole for a long, long time. However, I don’t know what the sentencing guidelines are, only how I feel.

  207. 207.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @WaterGirl:

    Oh, I see it as a positive. It was certainly met that way, with cheers and support from the crowd there, which included members of Arbury’s family, lots of Black clergy, and members of the public, almost all AA.

  209. 209.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    Before everyone wallows in the despair over things like Ritterhouse remember it took Rodney King and a seriously violent riot that did burn part of city (and a few other scandals) to get progress in Oh So Blue California. When people calm down they do go, you know that sucked, let’s make sure it doesn’t happen again.

  211. 211.

    Gvg

    @germy: I find the title “jogger murder” works just fine, because it is descriptive and unique enough. I knew instantly which murder they were referring too. Sadly there are enough that I need a clue like that. I don’t think it makes murders of joggers sound common and ordinary. That was unusual. Aside from racism, the reason we white people are getting a veil torn from our eyes is cell phone videos and body cams. It’s not he said but the other guy said something else anymore. Real evidence is great for truth. There will be more in the next few years. Pray for good juries many many times.

  215. 215.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    Something just occurred to me; lived on the edge of Oakland when it was a combat zone and I never felt the need to carry a weapon; why, because I am white. Whites are the customers and it was dealers shooting each other. But none of them wanted to spook a possible customer.

    Now who is pushing all this open carry shit and scared of their shadows; the hickies. In other words the white trash from Opiate and Meth crises central. This is all about drugs and the racism is because the hickies see urban blacks as competition, because the TV shows all urban blacks gang bangers.

  217. 217.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    @debbie: IIRC, the video was taken at a distance, and possibly in the mistaken belief that it wouldn’t splash back.

    I’m not a lawyer, but IIRC, “felony murder” means “you didn’t plan, or participate in, the killing itself, but were engaged in illegal activity with people who did plan or perform the killing”.

    It’s unlawful to stop someone, with the threat of lethal force, just because you (generic you, not *you*) see them running and decide they might have committed a crime. Now, if you thought it was okay to just stop that fellow to ask some questions, well, you did participate in the unlawful activity.

    And there are two disturbing thoughts about this.

    One is, the guy who tried to put things right could be in jail forever, and we don’t really know that he deserves it.

    The other is really frickin’ scary. What if the prosecutor filed felony murder charges against him, for ratting?

  220. 220.

    SFBayAreaGal

    Ahmuad Aubrey was a black man that  was a victim of a modern day lynching.

    I am happy the perpetrators were found guilty.

  223. 223.

    2liberal

    @snoey:They should get multiple life sentences each, and if they do skip the Federal trial. Being in the courtroom would be a good day for them.​

     

    the more convictions the better.  a trumpist might pardon them.

  224. 224.

    J R in WV

    @brendancalling:

    I hope they die in prison, whether it takes a few days or 70 years—same as I feel about the Charlottesville Nazis

    Pretty sure conviction in a civil case just means bankruptcy, not imprisonment. Sorry ’bout that.

  226. 226.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    @debbie: Of course it can’t be put right – I mean, does my writing sound like the ravings of an idiot who thinks people come back to life if one of the participants in a crime provides evidence?

    But letting murderers walk is wrong, too, and that can be put right. Should we show nothing but scorn and contempt for someone who prevented the additional injustice of letting murderers skate, at potentially ruinous cost to himself?

  227. 227.

    Geminid

    @LongHairedWeirdo: If you are talking about defendant William “Roddy” Brian, I think he was convicted of participating in the chase and capture of Mr. Arbery, and not just of filming it.

  228. 228.

    Ken

    @J R in WV: Pretty sure conviction in a civil case just means bankruptcy, not imprisonment.

    Making a note for when Baud gets back, to ask him to add a “Bring Back Debtors’ Prison” plank to his platform.

  230. 230.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    @Geminid: Yes, I’m aware of the conviction and his actions. I’m not pretending he’s like someone who filmed the murder of George Floyd.

    Thing is, if the video hadn’t dropped, everyone would have walked.  And I’m not saying anyone should pin a medal on him, okay? He still did something right, at risk to himself, and that shouldn’t be ignored.

    And I don’t want to ignore this possibility: in a world where Rittenhouse is considered an actual *hero* – as mentioned earlier, self defense in that realm is tragic, not heroic – turning in that video might have made the local powers that be think Mr. Brian was the real villain, for bringing the case into the national spotlight, rather than letting the murder be swept under the rug.

  231. 231.

    Kalakal

    I am so relieved at the verdict.

    And utterly appalled at the vicious arrogance throughout the entire process, not just of the murderers but the cops and the DAs.

  232. 232.

    Rusty

    @snoey: No, they should definitely have the federal trial.  If the state trial was ever overturned or they were pardoned at the state level, the federal convictions would still stand.  It also makes clear that federal law will be enforced.

  234. 234.

    Geminid

    @LongHairedWeirdo: I see your point. I am not sure, though, that Bryan understood that he was taking a risk by being a whistleblower. My impression is that Bryan’s subjective view was that the recording vindicated him and the McMichaels. But I did not follow this matter as closely as others.

  235. 235.

    Dan B

    @Old School: Unbeleivable that he thought the video would eas racial tensions.  There were three white guys chasing Arbery in trucks.  He was being hunted.

    Ease tensions!!?

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