BREAKING: Both Jennifer and James Crumbley are under arrest and in custody in Detroit. @detroitpolice and Marshals fugitive apprehension unit found them near St. Paul & Concord. @wxyzdetroit pic.twitter.com/2cFcpyFAkS
— Simon Shaykhet WXYZ (@simonshaykhet) December 4, 2021
Now the media circus really gets into gear. Per the AP:
… James and Jennifer Crumbley were captured in a commercial building in Detroit that housed artwork, Detroit Police Chief James E. White told a news conference. White said the couple “were aided in getting into the building,” and that a person who helped them may also face charges.
A Detroit business owner spotted a car tied to the Crumbleys in his parking lot late Friday, Oakland County Undersheriff Michael McCabe said in a statement. A woman seen near the vehicle ran away when the business owner called 911, McCabe said. The couple was later located and arrested by Detroit police…
Authorities had been looking for the couple since Friday afternoon. Late Friday, U.S. Marshals announced a reward of up to $10,000 each for information leading to their arrests.
The Crumbley’s attorney, Shannon Smith, said the pair had left town earlier in the week “for their own safety.” Smith told The Associated Press they would be returning to Oxford to be arraigned.
However, White said the Crumbleys “appeared to be hiding” in the building where they were found. He added that the parents appeared to be “distressed” when they were captured…
In a video message to the community Thursday, the head of Oxford Community Schools said the high school looks like a “war zone” and won’t be ready for weeks. Superintendent Tim Throne repeatedly complimented students and staff for how they responded to the violence.
He also acknowledged the meeting of Crumbley, the parents and school officials. Throne offered no details but summed it up by saying, “No discipline was warranted.”
McDonald was asked about the decision to keep Crumbley in school.
“Of course, he shouldn’t have gone back to that classroom. … I believe that is a universal position. I’m not going to chastise or attack, but yeah,” she said.
Asked if school officials may potentially be charged, McDonald said: “The investigation’s ongoing.”
If the Crumbleys hadn’t been white, and ‘privileged’, neither they nor their son would’ve left that school conference unescorted by armed security, I’m guessing.
They’re trying to escape to Canada
Car found at pin pic.twitter.com/ClAfB6aVvR
— Nonilex (@nonilex) December 4, 2021
IMO, the Crumbleys were ‘trying to escape to Canada’ the same way OJ Simpson was ‘trying to escape to Mexico’ — except that OJ probably had a passport, and a whole lot more cash on hand. In other words, they had a vague cinematic Butch-Cassidy-and-the-Sundance-Kid fantasy about disappearing into the sunset and never being seen again. Not very reality-based, but they don’t seem to have been a couple much into reality-based planning.
More states consider laws to punish parents if children fire unsecured guns https://t.co/Ou5syVzWvN
— The Washington Post (@washingtonpost) December 4, 2021
… Charging parents is unusual in a school shooting. A Washington Post review of 145 school shootings committed by children in the two decades after the Columbine High massacre in 1999 found that the weapon’s source had been publicly identified in 105 cases. In total, the guns those children used were taken from their own homes or those of relatives or friends 80 percent of the time.
However, in just four instances did the adult owners of the weapons face any criminal punishment for not having locked them up — and none of those prosecutions stemmed from negligent-storage laws…
A Post analysis found that such measures could have a profound impact, since more than half of the country’s school shootings since 1999 could have been prevented if the children who killed their classmates did not have access to firearms. And an academic study found that the number of gun-related accidental deaths and suicides among children and teenagers would drop by as much as a third.
One reason for the dramatic drop is that in gun-owning households with children, about 2 in 10 gun owners store at least one firearm in the least safe manner — loaded and unlocked. That would represent 5 million minors living in a house with an unsecured gun…
rikyrah
Good Morning Everyone ???
rikyrah
Trying for Canada?
Hmmnmm????
RandomMonster
Awesome post headline, AL.
rikyrah
Alex Cole (@acnewsitics) tweeted at 5:04 PM on Fri, Dec 03, 2021:
Let this sink in. While the Crumbleys sat in the Principal’s Office the morning of the shooting, presumably with Ethan present………the gun was in his backpack. When asked if they would take Ethan home, the parents insisted that he be sent back to class, and THEY WENT HOME.
(https://twitter.com/acnewsitics/status/1466906151522426881?t=Inr1J856gXYRwxyQ4Dj-tQ&s=03)
tom
Trying to cross into Canada from Detroit would have been a really stupid idea. Had they tried to cross by car, the license plate would have been checked. Being smuggled would have required an accomplice(s), and is usually unsuccessful. If they actually made it into Canada, then what? Hide out in the northern Ontario forest?
NotMax
A touch of much needed weekend respite.
From the film vault, an unusual (and deleted in the final cut) onscreen appearance of choreographer Hermes Pan. That’s him dancing with Astaire. In heels.
;)
Eunicecycle
@NotMax: I really thought it was a woman except for the height. Wow those heels!
Geo Wilcox
They abandoned their child. Not that I care about their child, he’s murdering bastard, but wtf must he be thinking knowing his parents were going to let him rot in prison while they high tailed it out of sight.
mrmoshpotato
HalfAssedHomesteader
I dunno. If my son was being held in jail I’d want to be meeting with lawyers, psychologists, whoever. My response wouldn’t be get the hell outta dodge. But I guess Crumbleys don’t stick together.
Eunicecycle
@rikyrah: this tragedy is particularly infuriating because the school picked up on the warning signs and the parents refused to see reality. I can’t fault the school too much except that they should have insisted the parents take him home (see what happens when parents have the last say on everything?) or they should have searched the backpack and his locker with the parents present.
Geminid
. Virginia finally passed a law in 2020 that makes it a crime to have an unsecured firearm in a home with minors present. Republicans took back the House of Delegates in this November’s election. They will probably try to roll back some of the six gun safety laws passed last year. I doubt if they will try it with this law. If they do, the Democrat-controlled State Senate will swat it down, like they will with the other five.
I hope Republicans try it. Polling showed that these gun safety measures had 70%+ approval. Virginia Democrats used to be afraid of running on gun safety. But they made it a winning issue in 2017 and 2019, and they can make it a winning issue in 2023.
Juju
@Geo Wilcox: It seems there is a reason the child turned out the way he did.
tom
@NotMax: That’s amazing, loved the dancing. I guess Edgar Allen Poe was in the public domain by then.
Betty Cracker
@Geo Wilcox: That’s the part that bothers me the most about their loopy escape attempt. As a parent, I can’t imagine doing that.
Sloane Ranger
@NotMax: That’s brilliant! I loved it. Astaire basically being led, rather than leading plus lifts and scissors. What film was it cut from?
Betty Cracker
So what will be these sociopaths’ next play? Say they were fleeing persecution of gun owners? Probably!
NotMax
Turning to the world of science.
Stormy study: there’s something about the North Atlantic.
debbie
I’d like to think Canada would have turned them over to U.S. authorities immediately.
Chief Oshkosh
A small aspect of this is that apparently the Crumbley’s own 2019 and 2021 vehicles (a Kia and some other non-luxury brand). It’s minor, I know, but it doesn’t appear that these people are economically desperate. Hell, they just bought their kid a high-end handgun for Christmas (though I guess it may have been used, so maybe not so expensive?).
I know Hillbilly Elegy has been thoroughly debunked, but I’m in the middle of reading Fiona Hill’s book “There’s Nothing Here for You,” and her central premise is that the rightwing meltdown (she describes it as a form of populism) is due to economic destitution leading to, essentially, nihilism. I think she’s very wrong. There’s lots and lots of people who have been economically disadvantaged for decades if not centuries — they don’t act like like the Crumbley’s and all the other rightwing assholes (apologies for the redundancy).
debbie
@Geo Wilcox:
They abandoned him because he had failed them yet again. He got caught. //
eclare
@Eunicecycle: I don’t get why the school didn’t search his backpack. When I was in high school, yeah decades ago, I remember being told explicitly that school administrators could search my locker for any reason or no reason.
JPL
@debbie: I’d like to think they are anti-vaxxers who wouldn’t be allowed into Canada without proof of vaccine.
Spanky
@Eunicecycle: Given the events that followed, it looks like the Parents of the Year were thinking “how can I dodge responsibility for this kid?” from the get-go.
BTW, can I safely assume these losers haven’t spawned any other potential dangers to society?
Spanky
@NotMax: There are blizzard warnings in Hawaii and you’re reading about the North Atlantic?
waspuppet
@Geo Wilcox: I can’t help it; I thought the same thing.
As for the NRA, I distinctly recall they used to say charging parents in a situation like this was totally appropriate and what we should be doing “instead of passing new laws.” Of course, they’re not like that anymore, and it’s worth remembering that they could actually release a statement applauding the charges if they wanted to.
I just like to point that out occasionally, because it doesn’t even occur to us anymore that conservatives could actually do the decent thing.
NotMax
@Sloane Ranger
The film is Second Chorus. Which in one interview many years later Astaire described as “the worst film I ever made.”
Another Scott
Canada?? Don’t they know that they were supposed to hijack a plane to Havana??!
:-\
I’m glad that they were captured so quickly.
Cheers,
Scott.
Spanky
@debbie: I’m not sure snark tags are warranted on your comment.
raven
@Chief Oshkosh: $900 new, $750 used.
HalfAssedHomesteader
@eclare: I wonder if he had hidden it in the bathroom. That’s where he came out shooting. So maybe they did search it and found nothing. May have contributed to the decision to let him return to class. All speculation of course.
debbie
@eclare:
It sounded to me like the parents were supposed to do that.
JMG
Woke up this morning to some less than good news. My son and his wife, who visited us for Thanksgiving from NYC, have been feeling under the weather this week, and due to natural caution, got tested for covid. Positive result came back yesterday. So Alice and I will get tested today, although we both feel fine. Younger ones say they feel lousy, but no worse symptoms than flu-like. They were vaccinated but not boosted (had appointments!). We are both boosted. Hope that works. Son and his wife ate dinner last Saturday night at the Kowloon, a Boston-area Chinese restaurant about the size of a cruise ship that’s always jammed (owner’s son went to high school with Josh). Dollars to doughnuts that’s where they were infected.
Feathers
@tom: US Copyright was 28 years until until 1976, when Disney and the Hollywood studios got involved.
Another Scott
@HalfAssedHomesteader: I’m sure that some of the early details are garbled, they usually are. But most bathrooms in public buildings don’t have hiding places, I don’t think. I have to assume that he had it close-by (locker or backpack).
:-(
Those poor kids…
Cheers,
Scott.
Chief Oshkosh
@raven: So, a lot of disposable income.
Betty Cracker
@Chief Oshkosh: I don’t think Hill is completely wrong, but anyone citing one factor to explain everything is at least partially wrong.
Kay
@eclare:
A locker search is different than a backpack search:
They can do a “snap” one day suspension with no notice or process for the student or parents, but it’s almost always based on a physical assault or a health risk to the student (active drug use that day).
I think they’re going to find the school followed the rules. There’s a state code up top and then a district code beneath that. They may change the rules after this, but schools usually follow the state and then district (written) code pretty closely.
raven
@Chief Oshkosh: I guess, that doesn’t seem like a great deal of money to me but that’s just me.
OzarkHillbilly
The Crumbleys are the 2021 Parents of the Year! Not only did they ignore warnings about their 15 yo child, they armed and encouraged his fantasies of a school shooting. Then, after he shot up the joint and was arrested for it, they abandoned him to the vagaries of the legal system in a lame attempt to save their own skins!
Nicole
@Spanky:
I think the kid has a half-brother, who lives with his mom in Florida. I found an article where the brother gave the usual “I can’t believe he would do this he’s always been a nice quiet person” spiel, but also mentioned he doesn’t visit his dad because of issues with his stepmom (the shooter’s mother). Who apparently posted a rambling diatribe on social media in 2016 to Trump about how happy she was he was elected. I’ll see if I can find the links
ETA: https://nypost.com/2021/12/02/accused-school-shooters-brother-teen-was-like-an-average-kid
https://www.thedailybeast.com/ethan-crumbley-identified-as-oxford-high-school-michigan-mass-shooter
sab
@Spanky: I believe the kid has an 18 year old half-brother from a previous marriage.
raven
@Nicole: That’s where she said she’s rather have her pussy grabbed than to be fucked in the ass by the government. A real sweetheart. Her wish is about to come true.
dr. bloor
@eclare: The short answer is the school borked this up badly. The district’s least worst outcome here will be some firings and the writing of some very large checks.
Steeplejack
@rikyrah:
Good morning! ?
raven
@dr. bloor: Kay just pointed out that they followed procedure.
Nicole
@raven: Yeah. Absolute trash parents.
mrmoshpotato
@Spanky:
Mmmmm Dairy Queen.
dr. bloor
@raven: Maybe for the search, but letting him back into the classroom after getting a look at those drawings and telling the parents that he had to be seen by a counselor within 48 hours is going to go very badly for them in court.
MattF
And that lawyer who said they were just retreating for their own safety… aiding and abetting?
debbie
I hope they throw the book at the parents. If it’s a banned book, even better.
trnc
@Geo Wilcox:
I’ll reserve judgment on the kid since there were apparently some cries for help that at least one teacher picked up on. Maybe letting them into Canada and letting them live on the run for the rest of their lives would have been the best outcome for the kid. It would be nice to think that they’d have to serve life sentences for their part in creating a murderer, but I’m not sure what the max sentence is for their charges.
Betty Cracker
Although it would be revolting to witness some of the responses, I kinda hope the MAGA trash parents stake their defense on feeling oppressed by anti-gun public officials. They can correctly claim the cops confiscated a pile of long guns from their home and blamed them for giving their teen access to a gun (they’ll claim they had no idea the kid was about to murder schoolmates, of course).
It might be clarifying. Millions of our fellow citizens worship guns because they are fearful bullies. They aren’t the majority, but they are single-minded enough, backed by an utterly amoral industry cartel and benefit from a political structure that privileges acreage over human beings. So the rest of us have been forced to live with their choices, in part due to apathy and ignorance among folks on our side.
It might not be a bad thing if Republicans and gun nuts made the Crumbleys a cause célèbre, especially on the heels of wingnut glee over the Rittenhouse verdict. Let them demonstrate whom they’re really invested in protecting.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@dr. bloor: Nope. If they can show that they followed established procedure they have an out.
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
I’m almost looking forward to hearing Glenn Beck’s trash on Monday morning.
artem1s
The school had their first meeting with the parents. There is a process for suspending a kid from a public school. You can’t just send someone home without due process. Yes, the school should have more leeway to deal with violent or potentially violent kids. But the reality is teachers often have to be in classrooms with kids who have committed and have been charged with violent offenses. They can suspend or expel but only after offenses have occurred.
Second guessing the actions of the school officials will now become the story for the Republican Gun Death cult and the enabling media. Anything to avoid talking about the guns and the effect of anti-government rhetoric and hate speech in the home. Anything to avoid gun owners from having to take responsibility for their actions. These cowards left their kid/s and try to flee because they claimed to be afraid. They were afraid they would have to face the same threats and violence they had likely been throwing at their neighbors and the school for who knows how long. They don’t know any other way to react except in fear. And they will use their constitutionally protected right to be afraid to explain their flight and their decision to force the school to keep their on in the classroom.
The school officials and teachers didn’t flee when they saw a kid in distress and acting out in fear. They took the steps available to them to bring it his parents attention. They are victims too. They shouldn’t be charged for not being able to fix the problem after one meeting or because they had no idea the parents were more broken than the kid they were trying to help.
Kay
@dr. bloor:
There’s this constant push/pull in school codes. On the one hand you want a written code with due process protections that binds school officials because every time you introduce “discretion” you also introduce “bias” – no one wants school officials just making “judgment calls” as far as suspensions and expulsions because that’s where the bias comes in, but on the other hand you want them to have enough power to run the school on an instant, moment by moment basis. So it ends up as a messy, endlessly negotiated compromise, where there’s a certain amount of risk. We swing back and forth in the US. For a time it will be all about how the school (each building) needs discretion on discipline and then there will be some bad decisions where officials over-react and start bouncing students for all kinds of reasons and then we go back to a strict rule-bound due process approach for school officials. For every error they make in one direction there’s an error in the other- suspending a 2nd grader for saying “I want to kill him” when angry with another student, that sort of thing.
germy
Are these really police mugshots of the parents? They don’t look traumatized or frightened or worried at all. I mean, their son is facing murder charges…
They look like drivers license photos.
Frankensteinbeck
@Chief Oshkosh:
Economic Anxiety was repeatedly debunked during the Obama years. Republicans are racists. That’s what it tracks to. Even their economic anxiety tracks to their views on race, not to their economic situation. IE, a black man is in charge? The economy must be terrible!
@Feathers:
And I am gleeful to say that congress has stopped caring what Disney thinks. Copyright expiration has been grinding along again for a couple of years now.
@dr. bloor:
Kids write crazy stuff. They’re kids. Violence fantasies among the perfectly safe are common. The ‘life is worthless’ parts are scarier. Suicidal ideation combined with violence fantasies is where psychiatrists/psychologists really sit up and get concerned, but I bet the rules said to try the parents first. That the parents blew it off so casually while their kid owned an unsecured gun is not something I think they would expect, and is what made this so immediately dangerous. From the parents’ ‘don’t get caught’ attitude, I’m sure we will hear they straight-up lied to the school about risk factors like the gun.
trnc
All the rights, none of the responsibility.
Honus
@raven: i don’t know. I’m just a poor country lawyer but I’ve never spent $750 on an early Christmas present for either of my sons, let alone a handgun.
ETA: I meant that as a reply to your “not a great deal of money” comment not the pussy grabbing one.
Immanentize
@raven: I have not ever spent even 750 bucks on a holiday gift for the Immp. Let alone one that goes “pew pew pew.”
I see Honus and I are both tight wads.
OzarkHillbilly
@artem1s: Thank you.
Kay
@artem1s:
I think we have to stop demanding that public schools solve our gun problem. At some point we are going to be out of people to blame and we are going to end up back at the guns. Public schools can’t solve all the societal problems in the US. It’s too big a job and it’s not their core function. There’s even a word for it now- “educationalism”. It means “we dump everything that we’re not willing to address on public schools”. They’ll fail at it. No one could succeed at it. It’s too much to ask from one public entity.
We’re drowning in guns and idiot gun purchasers and owners. They are going to end up in schools.
Another Scott
@germy: They’re wanted posters, not mugshots. Like you, I assume that they are driver’s license photos. (I’m glad that they didn’t use the maga hat photo that was going around earlier.)
Cheers,
Scott.
OzarkHillbilly
@Honus: @Immanentize:
Leaving all other considerations to the side, it is not at all out of line for a firearm.
Tony Gerace
@Geo Wilcox: I’m no psychologist, but maybe the main reason why the kid became a monster is that his parents are monsters … and so on for generations going back to the stone age. Behavior — toxic or benign — seem to be something that is passed down from generation to generation. Very sick people with access to powerful guns. And yes — I’m using the harsh word “monster” as a metaphor. In reality, of course, cruelty and violence are as human as art and music.
Immanentize
@OzarkHillbilly: Oh I know how much guns cost/are worth. One of my former students in San Antonio used to take his clients’ guns as pay if they couldn’t come up with the cash for his services. It proved to be quite a smart move for the young lawyer who is now (a well armed?) judge.
tom
@Another Scott: mugshots:
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2021/12/04/james-jennifer-crumbley-oxford-school-shooting-suspect/8865574002/
trnc
@Betty Cracker:
Whether wingnuttia embraces them or not, they’re a clear example of wingers focusing only on the ability to own and shoot guns and not at all on the dangers of zero responsibility, requirements for safe gun handling or any thought of mental assessments.
trnc
Especially an entity that is constantly under attack and often less funded than it should be.
MagdaInBlack
@tom: I’m very interested in what will be found when they search their house and computers.
Gin & Tonic
I freely admit to my biases, but linked below is one hell of a powerful advertisement for the Ukrainian Armed Forces. You’d think the US, global center of the ad biz, and with an Army funded beyond all rational needs, could come up with something half as powerful.
Honus
@OzarkHillbilly: I understand that. I haven’t spent $750 on a firearm for my sons; they were trained to use the ones I already own. Also, I sure as hell wouldn’t give a 9mm Sig to a 15 year old as a gift. Possibly a shotgun or a bolt action deer rifle, but 15 is still a littLe young for that IMHO.
Immanentize
@Kay: Educationalism is only exceeded by criminalization of all the world’s problems. Prosecutionalism?
Gin & Tonic
@tom: They don’t look like they’re having fun yet.
SiubhanDuinne
@Immanentize:
Thank you for inserting the apostrophe!
Ken
The “three generations of imbeciles” argument was abominable, but now and then I see the appeal. Especially if you replace “imbeciles” with “sociopaths”.
Percysowner
@Eunicecycle:
I wonder if the school was legally allowed to search his backpack. Usually they can search because they act “in loco parentis”, but with his parents there, that authority may have been superseded, or the school may have thought it was.
I’m sure everyone at the school who was involved are beating themselves over the head with what they didn’t do. In the end this is on the parents and the kid.
Gin & Tonic
@OzarkHillbilly: Leaving all other considerations aside, I don’t believe I’ve ever spent even $750 on a Christmas present for my son, and I suspect I have more disposable income than the Crumbleys.
ETA: Looks like I should read top-down and not bottom-up.
Starfish
@debbie: Does Beck discuss things in the same reality as the rest of us ever?
The glimpses that I am seeing of right wingers include seeing
a) Salt of the earth people very interested in defending the high-end department stores of San Francisco
b) Making a huge deal of that one case where the person who ran over the people in that parade was not in fact a Republican
Kay
@trnc:
It’s complicated. Public schools are sensitive to accusations of “counseling out” (because that actually happens). We have a tiny rural district here that racked up these amazing stats- 100% graduation rate, consistently high scores on state tests. Come to find out they also had an unusually high attrition rate- the low scoring kids with behavior problems who needed expensive interventions just kept disappearing and ending up in “virtual school” or adjoining districts- Ohio has open enrollment. The superintendent was making it clear to them and their families that it would be better if they went elsewhere. That’s “counseling out”. So it’s hard.
Immanentize
@SiubhanDuinne: I try but I am a piece of work in need of constant improvement.
JPL
I wonder how large the jail is. Many local communities have fairly small facilities, so they could have adjoining cells.
lowtechcyclist
@Feathers:
28 years, renewable once. So really 56 years for any work that still seemed to still have any commercial value after 28 years.
IMHO, that was a good system, and we should go back to it. Nobody is going to decide not to publish The Great American Novel in 2021 because they wouldn’t still be able to collect royalties in 2078, and any works that aren’t worth the hassle of filing the copyright renewal paperwork would be in the public domain by mid-century.
Hildebrand
They were picked up about four blocks from my congregation. I know the neighborhood well, a good number of small businesses have been doing a great job of rebooting that old warehouse district (one of my favorites is Planted Detroit – a ‘vertical farming’ operation that grows salad greens); still a good number of abandoned buildings, but folks in the neighborhood are trying their best to bring this part of Detroit back, and are very protective of restoring a sense of peace. Not a brilliant place to try to hide.
As far as trying to get into Canada? Two choices – the Ambassador Bridge (which is clear across the city), or the tunnel. The tunnel under the Detroit River is exceptionally well patrolled, guarded, and this particular crossing has just reopened – the Canadians are being extra rigorous about checking everyone (they always are, but right now, folks are saying you should just plan on a very detailed bit of questioning to get in – if you don’t have a really good reason, they have turned people around). They would have never made it through.
JPL
@Frankensteinbeck: That’s why as word of the shooting went public, the dad called 911 to report a stolen gun. He did admit that it was his son.
Honus
@Ken: for the record, Carrie Buck’s daughter was an honor student in elementary school prior to her premature death.
germy
@Another Scott:
I see.
I’m sure the actual mugshots will look less… smug.
Another Scott
@tom: Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Reboot
@NotMax: Never have seen Fred Astaire not leading–amazing clip!
Gin & Tonic
My daughter just this week had a 2-nd grader throwing chairs around the room and breaking things. She had to evacuate the room. Earlier in the year, with another teacher, the same kid had a violent tantrum and broke a glass door. That teacher is going for PTSD counseling. But they can’t suspend the kid yet, for reasons.
tom
The Oakland County prosecutor’s office and sheriff’s department are not looking very competent. The sheriff is complaining that he didn’t know that the parents had been charged until he saw it in the media.
germy
@MagdaInBlack:
More guns and more trumpy social media posts, I predict.
Kalakal
@Chief Oshkosh: Apparently the median income for Trump supporters (2016 primaries) was $72,000. Any party that boasts that it has the biggest and best boat parades is not appealing to the horny handed sons of toil. They’re authoritarian racists not economically anxious
dr. bloor
@Comrade Scrutinizer: The “standard of care” argument is getting them nowhere in a civil suit when it’s clear that the school saw those drawings and also knew that the kid had been lookiing at ammo online. This is gross negligence.
oatler
@JPL:
Adjoining cells? Not good! They’ll just bicker bicker bicker.
MagdaInBlack
@germy: I feel like it’s going to be uglier than guns and trumpi-ness.
dr. bloor
@artem1s:
You most certainly can. They are not trained to do a threat assessment, and should have gotten him out of the building. The analogy here isn’t a legal proceeding where evidence is weighed, it’s mandated reporting for suspected abuse.
Immanentize
@Honus: I’ll be teaching Buck v. Bell next semester. What a poisonous mix was (is) race, eugenics, and contempt for poverty.
Ken
@Honus: I did know that, thanks; hence the “abominable”. Well, one reason for my use of it.
hueyplong
Tonight on Hannity: Woke culture betrays a family and leads to disaster, then liberals line up to demonize a disturbed child in their attempt to politicize tragedy yet again. Is there no end to librul perfidy?
Either that or crickets, as a new Hunter Biden outrage and inflation’s threat to your retirement fills the 60 minutes.
Vegas can’t decide which tack is the betting favorite.
Immanentize
@tom: Hmmmm. Maybe there is a reason that the prosecutors felt they didn’t need to, or perhaps shouldn’t, tell the good old shire reeve of that decision. Also, too, none of his business until a warrant is issued.
Dorothy A. Winsor
It’s ironic that the Crumbleys probably had guns partly because they feared scary Black people coming from Detroit. And they were found in Detroit.
I don’t know how they thought they were going to get to Canada from Belle Isle. Boat I guess. There’s no bridge that way, though there’s a bridge and a tunnel close by in Detroit.
Immanentize
@oatler: Ha! Also, men and women are not put next to each other unless someone is itching for a lawsuit. If a facility is really too small to separate the sexes, they put one of the two in a different county.
HinTN
@NotMax: Fabulous! Fred is a very silly boy.
Kay
@Gin & Tonic:
They have more “alternative” schools now- higher security places where they’re essentially segregating a portion of violent students, but not for elementary age students. It’s a way to retain due process protections for most students in the system while limiting process and notice protections for a small minority. Just being assigned to the school removes the right of notice and process and appeal on discipline actions.
Amir Khalid
@Percysowner:
Even if Ma and Pa Crumbley’s presence did constrain the school’s authority to search the murdering little snot’s backpack, they regained full authority to do it once the parents had left the school’s premises.
Immanentize
Will no politician — maybe chinless Vance?! — give us a Crumbley, Sister Souljah moment??
A nation turns its stony eyes to you….
germy
Reminds me of Mark David Chapman back in 1980. He told a cop friend he was planning a visit to NYC. So his cop friend gave him a bunch of hollow-point bullets.
Because you know, those people are all over NYC.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@JMG: Fingers crossed that you both test negative. Sorry about the whole thing.
OzarkHillbilly
I suspect that is not at all uncommon in high profile cases. There are procedures to follow between law enforcement and prosecutors. But all it takes for the press to get it is a circuit court clerk with a juicy secret to share.
Kay
@Immanentize:
Ha! Agreed. I think they’re too far in this to switch course now, though. The Crumbley’s, like all gun owners, are 2nd Amendment heroes.
Expect a ton of Fox analysis on how this is the fault of the public school. I tend to agree at this point- the Crumbley’s should have considered home schooling.
Kay
I have never in my adult life seen this much focus on a Vice President. I don’t think I heard anything about Mike Pence over 4 years until the Trump fans threatened to hang him. He had a rabbit, right? Some stupid pet rabbit gimmick.
I mean, come on. Do they not see that this is biased? Just the level of examination and criticism is biased.
germy
japa21
@Gin & Tonic: That is powerful. And it really sends a message. BTW, my favorite was “I’m the man who hits the radiator pipes all night.”
Kay
I think the US is regressing on women’s rights right in front of us. Whether it’s this past weeks hearing on whether women are 1. people or 2. pregnancy vessels or the media discussion on “why is Kamala such a bitch?” we’re just lurching into “backwards” status.
SiubhanDuinne
@Immanentize:
As are we all, my friend. As are we all.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
Cheney got a lot of attention, but Cheney was Bush’s boss for most of the presidency and the public knew it. Joe and Pence only got flickers here and there. I am seeing the same thing I saw with Hillary. A cornerstone of misogyny is the idea that women are inherently victims. Humans are hyenas, pack hunters and scavengers. We attack vulnerability and don’t even notice that’s how we work. Misogynists don’t just dislike women, they feel free to wave their freak flag and go directly to insults and threats. A tidal wave of them.
SiubhanDuinne
This arraignment hearing is fascinating.
germy
Here are the mugshots:
Kay
@Frankensteinbeck:
Cheney got a lot of attention for his manly-man leadership. It was worshipful after 9/11 and that held for the rest of his time in office.
Kay
@germy:
They ignored their lawyer, which is just completely in keeping with everything else we know about them.
They have to learn things the hard way.
Gin & Tonic
@japa21: What is powerful in it as well is that several of them are speaking Russian, not Ukrainian. Puts the lie to Putin’s thesis that the Russian-speakers are naturally Russia supporters.
germy
@SiubhanDuinne:
Defense attorneys are blaming media. Too much negative media.
germy
@Kay:
Do they have different lawyers now? I see Ms. Lehman and Ms. Smith at this arraignment.
So many Trump fans eventually end up in a court of law.
mrmoshpotato
@germy:
Well, when your kid murders a few kids at school…
tom
@Immanentize: I have no idea how these things are supposed to work, but in any case it’s not a good look for them to argue in public.
Mike in NC
Coming soon to Lifetime: “It’s a Very Crumbley Christmas”
MagdaInBlack
@germy: I’m struggling to find a way to put a positive spin on portraying this horror.
Citizen Alan
@Immanentize: It’s been years since I read anything about that case, but wasn’t it also the case that the people who originally had Buck committed were family members of the guy who raped her and got her pregnant?
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
I think misogyny has been increasing culturally in the US since the 80s, when a huge mainstream push in the direction of toxic masculinity took over, probably in backlash to increasing civil rights of all kinds. Sometime in the 2000s the pendulum started to swing back, but left a whole lot of people behind. We hit a point in the late Obama presidency when enough of mainstream culture gave a damn that longstanding sexual abuses were able to be successfully aired, and women started breaking in as leads in mainstream, traditionally male media roles. A woman was a serious candidate for president.
And like the election of the first black president, a whooooole lot of misogynists have gone apeshit. They have lost. Their. Fucking. Minds. Shit like Gamersgate. Like with attitudes about gay marriage and gender diversity, popular culture has left them behind, and the toxic masculinity crowd are determined to burn the country to the fucking ground if they can’t have it.
germy
I thought one of the defense attorneys looked familiar. Ms. Smith:
https://www.espn.com/olympics/gymnastics/story/_/id/22286229/lawyer-shannon-smith-doubts-larry-nassar-assaulted-all-women-accused-him
Shannon Smith doesn’t think Larry Nassar capable of assaulting all women who accused him
Immanentize
@Kay: Spiro Agnew?
opiejeanne
@Citizen Alan: Their nephew.
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: I liked the ad, but the Russian language detail makes it artistry. Thanks for that point!
dr. bloor
@SiubhanDuinne: KIA will no doubt be delighted to learn that the pop-up ad on my screen while watching was pushing the Seltos.
Quencher
Okay, what is a “commercial building that housed artwork”
Weird name for a museum?
A climate controlled warehouse where valuable art works are stored? In Detroit???
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic: Wow, cool. A LOT of them are speaking Russian.
Fuck Putin.
Immanentize
@Citizen Alan: That is a bit obscure. The mother was accused of being a prostitute based solely on the evidence that she had a child out of wedlock. Now you have me hunting for the rape story. Thank you
opiejeanne
@germy: Wow. She (Smith) is a real piece of work.
JPL
Bond is set at $500,000 for each of the Crumbleys. That seems low for someone who just tried to flee.
germy
@Quencher:
Why is that surprising? Is Detroit really the hellscape as portrayed on Fox News, etc.?
Dorothy A. Winsor
@JPL: I’m surprised they’re eligible for bond. If they don’t count as flight risks, who does?
germy
@opiejeanne:
She’s animated at this live hearing. Speaking loudly about the behavior of the prosecution. “A media spectacle!” she says..
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/04/oxford-high-school-shooting-james-crumbley-jennifer-crumbley-charges/8850831002/
Another Scott
In other news, …
Eyes on all the prizes.
(via eclecticbrotha)
Cheers,
Scott.
japa21
@Gin & Tonic: My linguistic skills are such that I could not detect that. That is cool. There is a real psychological underpinning to that ad.
germy
I only learn about stuff like that in places like this.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
If I were running the jail in Oxford, I’d make dad and son bunkmates, as preemptive punishment of both. Might even consider waiving policy on sex separation and putting mom in the same cell.
Immanentize
@JPL:
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
One of the judges I practiced before in Miami used to set really high bonds on drug dealers, then he would lower it week by week — maybe 750,000 down to 550,000 over time. At some point he would hit the sweet spot where the cartel would bond the guy out. Pretty high jumper rate in that group, but Judge Snyder was proud of that — he used to say that Miami is better off with half a million dollars than with one more guy in jail. And there was also a high rate of recapture because these guys were not geniuses.
Hildebrand
@Quencher: That part of Detroit is coming back – seeing some decent (albeit slow) renewal. There are some great new businesses in that immediate area – one of my favorites is Planted Detroit, a ‘vertical farm’ – they grow salad greens (they are awesome).
Jinchi
Seeing the profiles of the students shot and killed it hit me that they are almost the same age as the Sandy Hook victims would have been if they hadn’t been gunned down 9 years ago. Many of the survivors described falling back on their years of active shooter drills (basically lock the door, hide in a closet and throw things at the gunman).
It infuriates me that these kids have lived their whole lives under constant threat of violence, because our political class is unwilling to pass basic gun control legislation. Republicans have sacrificed a generation to the alter of the NRA.
Another Scott
@JPL: A comment at Wonkette says that it has to be all cash (no 10% bond). They might have trouble coming up with $1,000,000.00 quickly. There’s not much reason to think that they would be successful if they tried to run again, so I’m all for the judge not leaving any avenue for appeals and delays.
Cheers,
Scott.
tom
@germy: I live very near Detroit and am in the city pretty frequently. Large parts of the city are in very rough shape. Other parts are doing well. The area where the building the Crumbleys were hiding is doing OK. The building itself houses several businesses, including a “rare tropical plant business“.
ETA link
OzarkHillbilly
“How do we know the kitchen cabinet didn’t do it?”
OzarkHillbilly
She wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t.
Jinchi
@JMG:
Hoping that keeps you well. Take care.
OzarkHillbilly
I’ve never been bonded out but as I understand it, the perp comes up with 10% and a bondsman the rest. That meets the “all cash” bond requirements. What the judge is not allowing them to do is put up property valued at whatever.
geg6
This may have been mentioned, but isn’t their lawyer the same one that defended Larry Nasser?
Another Scott
@OzarkHillbilly: Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Steeplejack
@Citizen Alan, @Immanentize:
It’s all in the Wikipedia article.
rikyrah
@JMG: ??????????
brendancalling
@Chief Oshkosh: I noticed the late model vehicles too. This isn’t Snuffy Smith and Lo’weezy in Hootin’ Holler, the comic strip hillbillies. These sound like people with at least some disposable income.
I hope they go to jail, and I hope their kid gets the mental health services he needs while he’s in jail too.
What rotten parents. Abandoning the murderous child they raised together like that.
JPL
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I imagine that a bails bondman will want a larger percentage upfront.
Quencher
@germy: I’m sure Detroit isn’t as bad as Fox News makes it out to be.
But in my (very limited) experience storage facilities dedicated to storing art works tend to be very near major art markets which I don’t think Detroit is …
Just seemed like an odd turn of phrase to me …
OzarkHillbilly
@JPL: That is entirely up to the bonds(wo)man. They don’t have to bond anyone.
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
Defence lawyers are from the same firm. There was a whole thing at the start of the proceedings where they both argued there was no conflict of interest. Judge agreed, but IIRC she added some caveat like “at this time.”
zhena gogolia
@JMG: According to Dr. Fauci, your booster should really help. I hope they recover quickly.
Starfish
@brendancalling: What kind of mental health services does a person who think it is a-okay to murder his peers need?
What kind of mental health services does someone with violent fantasies whose violent streak is affirmed by his parents need?
This is really asking a lot of mental health services.
germy
@SiubhanDuinne:
Thank you.
I heard them talking about conflict of interest, but I wasn’t sure why.
Geminid
@germy: The local Georgia results did not get a lot of attention in national media. But I have seen these results noted frequently in Democratic Twitter, retweeted by people such as @Ragnarok Lobster and @Black Professor.
JPL
@OzarkHillbilly: I wonder what the bond would be had they not fled. I wonder if the 4,000 they withdrew from the ATM would have been enough.
Starfish
@Geminid: I hope this means good things for Stacey Abrams’s chances. I hope they build Planned Parenthood clinics near all the borders.
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
Great find!
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Quencher: I wondered if it could be a storage facility for the Detroit Institute of Art or perhaps for pieces from an art collection belonging to one of the automotive companies.
Geminid
@Starfish: Georgia has definitely been trending more Democratic the past few years. I am hoping that Cheatin’ Brian Kemp has a strong primary challenger. There is talk that former Senator David Perdue will jump into the Governor race, possibly with trump’s endorsement. Perdue and Kemp would spend a lot of money beating each other up.
Quencher
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Having nothing else to do while waiting at the vet for my dog, I’ve been looking into this and apparently it’s just a generic building with several different commercial businesses inside. I guess one must offer art storage or something. But this isn’t a purpose-built, climate controlled art storage facility.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@JPL:
Would have been low, maybe ROR.
Sadly, there’s a nonzero chance that some Textard or some similarly disposed asshole will post for them.
Another Scott
@Gin & Tonic: Well done. Thanks for the pointer.
Here’s hoping that Putin ends up weaker as a result of his continued provocations and Biden’s efforts.
Cheers,
Scott.
Starfish
@Starfish:
debbie
@Gin & Tonic:
That’s a great ad. Not in the same vein, but I’ve always like this one for the Navy Seals.
debbie
@Starfish:
He believes he has fashioned a role for himself as the next MLK, only more Christian. And white.
He championed Rittenhouse. I assume he’d due the same for Crumbly, but what I’m interested in is to see how he twists the parents’ behavior into a righteous action.
Ken
Congratulations on passing this version of the “are you a sociopath” quiz. (The more famous version is fake, according to Snopes.)
debbie
@japa21:
Mine too! I’m more of a broom handle banging on the ceiling kind of gal.
Obvious Russian Troll
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Exactly. There’s no way in hell they get across to Canada without a boat, and I think even then the odds are good either the US or Canadian Coast Guards would catch them.
I’m surprised they didn’t just try to hide out somewhere in northern Michigan. They almost certainly knew somebody who has a place up north they aren’t using right now.
Sure, they’d have been caught eventually, but they might have held out for more than a day.
laura
@Immanentize: Also, too, gender one hopes.
Kalakal
@OzarkHillbilly: The idiots should have fled to Florida. Not only would DeathSantis have given them asylum he have signed them up for his new
SturmabteilungState GuardOhio Mom
@Starfish: Obviously you are not a mental health professional, else you would have a list of a couple of conditions to rule out, just off the top of your head.
Maybe this young man is irredeemable, maybe he isn’t. Seems to me that the fair thing to do is look to make sure no one has overlooked anything that could quiet his inner demons. His brain is still developing.
Now his parents, they are another story.
The Pale Scot
@Spanky:
SNOW’S UP!
Jay
@brendancalling:
She is a realtor. That usually requires either one good income with benefits, or someone really good at fiscal management, because the income flow,( in most places•) is feast or famine.
•here, in the LML, a “side gig” is “managing” vacant offshore owned properties as rentals, to duck the property tax rules, which provides a small per unit, but steady income.
Chief Oshkosh
@Kalakal:Yes, as I said in my OP, Hillbilly Elegy has been thoroughly debunked. I never gave it any credibility anyway. Lots of people are poor, or grew up poor, and they aren’t shitty nihilists who want to watch the world burn just because they’ve been ignored by the powers that be.
Kalakal
@JMG: Hopefully the booster will do it for you. How awfully scary for you, both for youself and your son and his wife. Hope it all works out well
SiubhanDuinne
O/T: Very reluctantly, I have decided to skip today’s Met Opera Live HD presentation of Aucoin’s new Euridice. A shame, because I do love the Orpheus and Eurydice myth, and was very much looking forward to a contemporary take. But I woke up with a scratchy throat and dry cough, and have felt increasingly fatigued all morning. I hope it’s a brief nothing, but even vaxxed, masked, and distanced, I’m not sure it’s a good idea for me or the other patrons for me to attend today. Ugh.
Starfish
@Ohio Mom: I am an increasingly pissed off person who is seeing a bunch of things being written off as “needing mental health care” while a lot of mental health care is STILL deeply underpaid women’s work.
If we valued mental health care, we would quit running our mouths and start funding it like it mattered. I haven’t seen that happen yet
Edmund Dantes
@trnc: they have magically transformed from “responsible gun owners” too now. The “no true Scotsman” of gun ownership. Every whites person that owns a gun is a “responsible good guy with a gun” until such time their actions result in bad publicity for unfettered gun ownership. Then they were always a bad egg and an exception to all the other responsible ones. So we can’t do anything to change the laws as it would only punish the good ones that don’t need laws or regulations to tell them how to use/store/etc their guns.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@SiubhanDuinne: You are a socially responsible person. These days, that’s high praise.
tom
@Jay: She was a realtor, I read somewhere that her license expired in 2018.
JPL
@Jay: I read that her license lapsed in 2018. what Tom said
Hildebrand
@Obvious Russian Troll: They should have gone into the ‘Thumb’ of Michigan – other than western MI, that region has the biggest collection of militia types. Going to Detroit was incredibly dumb, especially the Islandview neighborhood (my congregation is just a few blocks from where they picked up these yahoos), as MAGA types will stick out like sore thumbs.
tom
@SiubhanDuinne: Ugh, I hope it’s nothing serious.
Barbara
@Chief Oshkosh: Indeed. Thinking about the RWNJs who exposed my entire family to Covid last week (all vaccinated, all testing negative so far) they are well off but especially for the semi-rural location where they live, as I am sure they make well above the median local income. At least for people like them, it seems to be more about not losing relative advantage than having any immediate economic anxiety.
Chief Oshkosh
@Kay: C’mon, man! ;)
Of course you’ve heard this much about a veep before. Uncle Joe used to regularly make it into the press. Remember when some woman sat in his lap in a diner? The rightwing nutjobs were salivating, sure that this constituted sexual abuse. Or when he whispered “This is a big fucking deal” into President Obama’s ear? Oh the horrors of a grown man using salty language! Several right-wingers fainted and had to be brought around with whiffs of cordite spritzed under their noses.
brantl
@NotMax: How could he tell? Fred Astaire was a limp fish, who could dance. Lousy actor.
SiubhanDuinne
@tom:
I hope not too, thanks. Going to take a nap, will see how things check out when I wake up.
Frank Wilhoit
@Chief Oshkosh: It’s not economic destitution. It is educational and emotional destitution.
And it is not nihilism; it is a revolt against any form or source of accountability.
germy
@brantl:
[Astaire] had done a screen test, but he failed to attract any interest. A studio executive wrote at the time, “Can’t sing. Can’t act. Slightly balding. Can dance a little.”
SiubhanDuinne
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Oh, thank you! But in all honesty, I’m thinking just as much about myself ?
Barbara
@Hildebrand:
It appears that they were going to that specific neighborhood because it’s where the home or business of a friend was located. They were definitely hiding but I don’t know if they were fleeing. Fleeing to Canada would have been a seriously stupid idea for a lot of reasons but I suppose they might not have been thinking rationally at that point. People who are not used to being the target of law enforcement can make seriously suboptimal decisions when they realize they are facing criminal prosecution.
Barbara
@germy: I believe that Astaire himself credited his sister Adele for a lot of his success.
L85NJGT
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021/12/3/22816270/illinois-retail-theft-task-force-recovers-stolen-merchandise
Hildebrand
@Barbara: Ah, ok – that makes more sense (well, other than running in the first place, which makes absolutely no sense).
As for getting to Canada – I can’t imagine even they would have entertained the idea. There is just no way to do it other than the tunnel under the Detroit River or the Ambassador Bridge, both of which are extensively monitored by, well, every agency you can imagine (and the Canadians aren’t thrilled about letting any Americans in right now, even though the border is officially open again).
Sloane Ranger
@brantl:
Oh, I don’t know. I think he did an adequate job in “On the Beach” and some of his other later work. I’d be the first to admit that acting wasn’t his main strength but I don’t care, I watch him for his poise, his elegance and his skills as a dancer.
brendancalling
@Starfish: I work as a teacher, and as a teacher you have to study how children’s brains work during your training.
The fact is that a 15 year old boy’s brain is not an adult brain. Spend 10 minutes in a middle school or high school and you’ll see that firsthand. They do not have developed judgement capacity. They are overwhelmed with hormones and out of control body chemistry, as well as a still-developing sense of personal identity. They are incredibly impulsive, and entirely caught up in the drama of their lives and emotions—this is why teenagers are so much more likely to commit suicide.
Less harmful example: This year, in schools across the US got hit with a truly stupid TikTok trend called “Devious Licks,” in which high school and middle school students deliberately damaged or stole school property, and then posted their deeds on TikTok. Then, these dummies were actually surprised when they got caught and paid consequences. Only a teenager would do something so fucking STUPID—and it’s because they haven’t developed foresight yet. Why do you think teenaged boys/young men get charged higher car insurance rates? It’s because they have bad judgement and high impulsivity, as well as an immortality complex.
Let me clarify that I still think the little bastard should be in jail because of what he did. But he’s still <em>just a kid</em>—whereas his parents presumably have fully developed brains, and the responsibility to teach their boy to make good decisions, and to find him mental health support BEFORE he goes nuts. He absolutely deserves (and needs) mental health services while he’s in prison if he’s ever going to be redeemed, rehabilitated, and eligible for release as a safe, contrite, and corrected human being.
You better believe I blame the parents for what Ethan Crumbley did as much as the kid. I hope he’s able to get rehabilitated, even if he’s never released. As for the parents, who abandoned their murderous child after buying him the gun he used, and encouraging his behavior? They should be discarded like yesterday’s garbage. Fuck ‘em.
laura
@Sloane Ranger: Funny Face- he was well cast, and it was an excellent performance. You are right about On the Beach.
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: Some is just eastern-accented Ukrainian. If they say like three words, they could be the same.
I’m not going to look it up now, but Paul Manafort had a history of exploiting language differences in some election elsewhere, before he went to work for Yanukovych. So there he tried to exploit the Russian-Ukrainian issue. But most Ukrainians don’t care, and are largely bilingual. I’ve mentioned before, there’s a very popular TV show there, kind of like the US Sunday morning talkfests, where it is accepted for the host to ask a question in Russian and a guest to reply in Ukrainian. Nobody bats an eye.
The Pale Scot
@oatler:
Bicker, bicker, bicker
Brouhaha, balderdash, ballyhoo
It’s only talk
MagdaInBlack
@Ken: I really hope “passing” means “Yay, you passed, you’re not one.” ?
Sloane Ranger
@Barbara:
When Adele was dancing, she was the star and he was just her partner. Throughout his career, Astaire suffered from a lack of belief in his own ability as a dancer and was hyper-critical of his own performances. He attributed his success to 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration. Read “The Astaires: Fred and Adele” by Kathleen Riley.
SiubhanDuinne
@laura:
Agree with you about Funny Face, and I would add Daddy Long-Legs. Can’t imagine anyone else of that era playing the male romantic leads in those two films.
Hildebrand
@The Pale Scot: That is a great song. Always loved the Adrian Belew era King Crimson.
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic: Is this what’s called surzhyk?
zhena gogolia
@SiubhanDuinne: He’s great in Funny Face. Daddy Longlegs always made me cringe, even when I was a kid.
I hope you feel better soon!
Frankensteinbeck
@brendancalling:
I agree with absolutely everything you just said. All of it. Universal This.
Leto
@OzarkHillbilly: They could at least say that Justice J’aime la bière, from La société fédéraliste, said that. “Are you sure there wasn’t a staircase around you? Maybe some steps?”
Starfish
@brendancalling: What you are talking about is real and important. The blanket discussion of mental health bother me.
What you are talking about is very specific developmental psychology of teens.
Right now, there are a lot of teens that need the developmental support that they did not get outside of school. Some are dealing with issues of poverty. Some are dealing with losing family members to COVID. The needs are huge and in all sorts of areas of psychology. The services? Not so much.
We are also not funding the mental health services for the giant drug addiction issues that are increasing all over the country.
brendancalling
@debbie: you talk in’ about me?
Because if you are, you are deliberately misrepresenting my position. I think that kid belongs in jail as well—but again, it’s the fucking parents that enabled him. A 17 year old kid can’t go buy guns on their own. Parents are responsible for their minor children’s actions, and for raising them right. Children aren’t born hateful—as the song says, “you have to be carefully taught.”
Also, too, I remember when progressives were against trying children as adults. But I guess you prefer the hard-right “lock ‘em up forever/fry ‘em” position, which is certainly your right. I just don’t take your position, and never have, except in very rare cases like that Dylan Roof piece of shit—and he was 21, not a teenager.
You don’t have to agree with me, but you don’t get to say I “championed” the Rittenhouse, because that’s not true and you should refrain from mischaracterizing your fellow juicers just because you disagree with them. KTHXBYE.
Ruckus
@Chief Oshkosh:
I’m sure there are some who are not wealthy and fit the world described by Fiona. There are a lot who are financially OK except that they think they deserve to be far wealthier because they are conservatives who blame everyone else for being the people they actually are. It’s never their fault. Never. In this case their son acted on his own, they have no responsibility, other than of course providing the weapon. Which they of course didn’t purchase for him. They didn’t pull the trigger, he did. It really does take humans extremely self centered to get to the point they can facilitate multiple murders and think/act like this.
This is a part of conservative dogma, self centering. Every thing is about them. How conservative they are. How much everyone is out to get them. How the world is trying to kill them for their success. How put upon they are.
The world doesn’t work the way conservatives see it. They have a concept of a perfect, controlled life, where everyone sees everything the same way as them. A democracy that allows, encourages differences? What in the possible hell is that? Everyone has to look the same, have the same hair styles, the same clothes, the same religion, the same skin color – bland, the same – well everything. The perfect world. Except it isn’t like that, it never has and never will be. There is far more than yes/no. Sure yes/no is sometimes/often valid, but just as often there is a grand canyon’s worth of space between them.
It’s life, most of us look at it as an adventure of sorts, often we’d like a bit less negative surprises, like disease or bankruptcy but we expect surprises, differences, tall/short, dark/light, mystic/humdrum, potato/patato… Some of us actually like differences rather than all gingerbread, all the time. The world is not black and white there actually are a lot of colors in the rainbow.
And as conservatives have seen the world retract from the concept of only one and all for me, they are reacting, in rather conservative ways. The are losing the war of sameness. And it scares them right down to their socks. They are fighting a war, and they are losing. Because the world is opening up to differences, billions of differences. Look around, this world looks nothing like it did 75 yrs ago. Nothing. For some that is unacceptable. They have no idea how or why it should or is even possible. But with those billions of people there will be many, many differences and conservative humans can simply not understand how that can be.
Miss Bianca
@brendancalling: I think debbie may have been referring to Glenn Beck, rather than you, in her post. I could be wrong, being that I am a bear of very little brain, but that’s my reading of it, fwiw.
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: Yes.
Amir Khalid
@laura:
Here is the list of Fred Astaire’s awards from his IMDB entry. It’s fair to say he became a well-regarded character actor in his post-dancing years.
Steeplejack (phone)
@brendancalling:
She was clearly talking about Glenn Beck, if you would bother to check what she was responding to (Starfish at #81).
brendancalling
@Starfish: well then, to clarify, I’m not making a blanket statement about general mental health.
I have compassion for kids—all of them, because they’re just fucking KIDS—and I would rather take that position than “this kid is no good, throw him/her away.”
I realize other people may feel differently.
brendancalling
@Steeplejack (phone): oh shit! You are right!
@debbie: please accept my deepest apologies, I missed the Glenn Beck comment!! And Glenn is everything you say, and worse.
Nelle
@Starfish: Mental health services can’t overcome the culture infused sickness of selfishness, greed, and violence. Is it mentally healthy to be adjusted to this “norm”?
Leto
@Steeplejack (phone): Yeah, not hard to click her name and check context. Better to jump to conclusions and shit post instead. Always the safe response…
seaninclt
So I had an idea about the gun violence epidemic. We should take a cue from our friends on the other side of the aisle, and institute a “bounty” program on unsecured weapons, threats about school violence, and actual acts of violence. If a kid shoots up a school, not only can you sue the parent’s for $20k (you don’t even have to have standing) but, using TX as a guide, you can sue the school, the county that provided the bus, etc. Hell, I’d even bet you could make a run at the gun shop that sold the gun. Can you imagine gun shops turning down people because they don’t have a practical storage safety plan that would indemnify the gun stores from the bounties? If everything is about personal responsibility, then everyone up and down that failed chain should have stopped that kid. Can you imagine a gun store getting hit with a couple hundred $20K bounty suits? Which legal fees are not eligible for countersuit even if they win? Let’s start playing by their rules. Since, as we all know, guns are the true “children” these fuckers want to protect. So let’s make them be responsible “parents”.
The Pale Scot
@Kay:
Somewhere there’s a post from some woman bitching about CRT and how she can’t homeschool because she can’t handle 4th grade math.
The kid would end up worse than Otto West
Apes don’t read philosophy.
laura
@Amir Khalid: he done alright by himself! The Towering Inferno merits a rewatch…. Thanks Amir Khalid
The Pale Scot
@Mike in NC:
Coming to Fox News soon, an updated redo of A Christmas Story. Script written by the Conservapedia people, who will take time off from their rewriting the bible project removing all of jeebus’s socialism quotes. Like a MAGA version of Jefferson’s Bible
Geminid
@laura: I thought Fred Astaire did well in Finian’s Rainbow. At least, the best he could.
Another Scott
@The Pale Scot: That’s a great film. :-)
The anti-public school screamers are always arguing in bad faith. They want all the benefits – Shop! Football! Basketball! Activities for College Applications!! Free Childcare!!1 – but don’t want any of the responsibilities – paying property taxes, accepting sensible standard curricula that actually explains how the world works (and changes) and how to think for themselves (and how to recognize propaganda and manipulation) and what history really was like, etc.
It’s clear that that’s the way they are when you hear their arguments that home-schooled kids should be able to participate in HS sports, etc., while they demand that they control the curriculum (and endanger all the rest of us by refusing vaccination, etc.).
Grr…
Cheers,
Scott.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@The Pale Scot: Kline really deserved that Oscar. A rare enough thing for a comedic performance to win an Academy Award
Omnes Omnibus
@Miss Bianca:
Completely off topic: When I was a law review editor in law school, I proposed “I am a bear of very little brain, and long words bother me” as our editorial boards motto. It was unanimously approved.
opiejeanne
@Jay: Her broker’s license lapsed in 2018.
The Pale Scot
@Another Scott:
A plank in the Texas GOP’s platform opposes the “teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills” and “critical thinking skills.” … It appears that their fear is that these “focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.”
So it’s ambitiously stupid willfully ignorant morons all the way down
Omnes Omnibus
@Honus: @Immanentize: My parents bought me a $750 violin in 1975. At that time, they were pretty damn cash strapped. It also was not a Christmas present. But the purchase of the $750 gun doesn’t necessarily say a lot about their financial well being. It could say a lot about their priorities though.
debbie
@brendancalling:
You’re Glenn Beck?!?
debbie
@Miss Bianca:
You weren’t wrong, smh.
debbie
@brendancalling:
No worries. I’ve been known to click on the wrong post a time or two.
Ken
@opiejeanne: Now I’m wondering if one side effect of this will be an examination of their finances. One of those “cockroaches turning on the light” moments.
ProudGradofCatLadyacademy
@Chief Oshkosh
In my experience, it’s the people who had a little power and privilege who are driving the right wing MAGA bullshit. Their little bit of economic and social power has been stripped away by late capitalism, and rather than blame any of the big EvilCorp CEOs who they think they are on equal footing with, they blame the libs, and the uppity feminists, and the blacks and immigrants, well the list is plenty.
Anything to not blame the right people, white, male and rich, because these MAGAs see themselves as equals just temporarily poor.
Most working class people are too busy working a full time job and side hustle to pay for our cancer treatments. We know we aren’t equal to EvilCorp CEOs and the deck is always stacked against us.
opiejeanne
@Ken: I think that’s already begun, although the neighbors stopped talking to the media a couple of days ago. Family, friends, and neighbors all clammed up.
Kent
Canada has an extradition treaty with the US and zero tolerance for handgun violence. They would have gleefully extradited these two back to the US. And I suspect it would be MUCH MUCH harder for two American MAGA dipshits to try and hide in Canada than some random state like Missouri where they might actually blend in.
Chief Oshkosh
@Betty Cracker: To be fair, she’s not saying it’s just one thing. She does spend some time on authoritarianism and other factors and issues, but she spends the vast majority of her text on economic commonalities between the UK, US, and Russia that led to “populist” takeovers of large parts of the social and political spheres. She and I grew up in similar circumstances and similarly moved away. But where she finds excuses for that part of her family and old friends who went all in on Brexit and anti-immigration and violence, I look at those people from my past as assholes because they and I DID come from the same family and backgrounds. They made choices and I made choices. Their choices are now killing democracy and literally killing fellow citizens.
Fuck ’em.
And yes, I know that that makes Fiona Hill a better person than me. It’s a long line.
Barbara
@Kent: Canada won’t extradite anyone facing the death penalty, which these two aren’t. But that’s why some people try to get across the Canadian border
Ramalama
@SiubhanDuinne: oooh I love that opera. This is live? In person? I’m still living like a shut-in.
trollhattan
@Barbara:
Guessing presented with the Crumblys Canada would go, “Eww, here, take them back!”
Kent
Michigan abolished the death penalty in 1847, long before Canada did. The last person executed in Michigan was in 1830. The last execution in Canada was in 1962 and Canada didn’t abolish the death penalty until 1976
But I doubt these two MAGAts knew any of that.
Eunicecycle
@Barbara: I remember Law and Order had an episode where a spree killer escaped across the border and thought he was home free. But the DA smartly didn’t charge him with murder, but with another extraditable offense (grand theft maybe?) His Canadian attorney threw a fit but the judge signed the extradition anyway. I know it’s just a TV show but I thought that was clever.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Ramalama:
It’s being broadcast live in selected movie theaters today. Details here.
ETA: It has already happened today, but there will be encore performances on Wednesday.
Matt McIrvin
@Ramalama: They do live simulcasts to movie theaters. Sometimes with recorded encores. We saw a few before pandemic times.
NotMax
@SiubhanDuinne
So Euridice you didna see.
;)
Some NPR stations must still air Met performances on the weekend. Unsure how current their catalog is, though.
CaseyL
@Starfish: They don’t even mean it. Saying “mental health issues are to blame” is deflection. A few years ago (I think) one state floated the idea of requiring a mental health examination as a requirement for buying a gun, and the gun bros went after the idea as discriminatory. “Someone has depression, you’re saying they can’t buy a gun? At least 50% of the population has problems with depression!”
So we “can’t” have gun control because it’s a mental health issue not a gun issue.
And we “can’t” have mental health requirements for gun ownership because that’s discrimination.
Feathers
@NotMax: The Met has their own streaming website, with recordings of past performances, video and audio. They were doing one free a night while The Met was closed because of Covid. I think it’s $15 a month normally. I don’t know how fast performances shown in theaters show up streaming. You can poke around the website or app to see what’s there, you have to pay to watch. There is at least one free sample to show the quality. It is astonishing to watch the progression in video quality over time. PBS always had very high broadcast standards, so it seems a fair comparison.
Barbara
@Kent: I was only responding because you stated that Canada hates gun crimes, and I wanted to note that Canada also loathes the death penalty. There have been a few cases in which Canada secured a commitment from U.S. prosecutors not to pursue a death penalty in exchange for willingness to return a U.S. citizen.
As for Law & Order, apparently the show couldn’t seem to acknowledge that New York hasn’t had the death penalty for quite a while either, because prosecutors were always threatening to pursue charges that would put a needle in someone’s arm.
J R in WV
@Spanky:
Nope…IIRC Mrs Crumbley is a stepmother of one of Mr Crumbley’s kids which he has custody of. Imagine the birth mother, if this monster deserved custody in the eyes of a FLA family court judge…!
I’m hoping Mr and Mrs Crumbley spend 4 consecutive long, long sentences in prison, preferable in far northern MI. Sheriff tells us they will never be together in jail or prison, as men and women are never together in custody.
sab
I have felt enormous pity for other parents. The Klebolds seemed like lovely people who did not have a clue, not oblivious, just gentler folks whose minds didn’t comprehend that anger.
Having had a very angry fifteen year stepson, I can understand this completely. At almost forty, he is a whole different person. But that took him years of work.
My family also has some unsuccessful suicides. Not because the kid fucked up. But because some other people amazingly jumped into the breach and rescued the distraught kid, just barely in time.
It is hard to sympathize with this boy who just devastated several families, but there is no place in hell hot enough for his oblivious parents who bought him the gun, lied to the concerned school, ignored the distress note and pictures, and then just took off
ETA What parent could see that distress note and not be horrified and frantic.
J R in WV
@J R in WV:
OK, I was wrong about who has custody of the half-brother, bio-mom in FLA has him, as he can’t stand to be with his step-mother.
Wise choice, young man.
NotMax
@Feathers
Well, was referring specifically to the long running radio broadcast over NPR, not to anything relating to PBS. ’21 -’22 schedule and station finder here.
Starfish
@CaseyL: The majority of gun deaths are suicide.
J R in WV
@JPL:
The sheriff said, in his press conference this afternoon, that the parents would never be together, as male and female inmates are always kept apart. The kid would never see either parent due to his youth he will be kept away from adult inmates.
I listened as long as I could stand it — once he started discussing his deputies passing wounded or dying kids to get to the actuve shooter to save lives I was pretty much done with it. Those people are heroes who now need psychological aid to return to anything approaching a normal life.
debbie
@sab:
Actually, I went to high school with Klebold’s mother. You’re right: clueless that her son would ever be party to what he was party to. She was a couple of years ahead of me, and she was one of the kindest people I knew at my high school. It was really very shocking.
dr. bloor
@Frankensteinbeck:
I know most of this, as I am a psychologist who has occasion to evaluate these kids from time to time. Whether they realize it or not, one or more of the school administrators made an evaluation of dangerousness during that meeting, an evaluation that they were not qualified or trained to make (if there was an ostensibly qualified mental health professional involved, that person should be fired immediately).
I’ve seen cases where the referral was so plainly “cover my ass” that I was tempted to bill the school rather than the parents. I’ve seen subtler cases where things need to be sorted a bit. But this? The drawings alone should have gotten him out of the building until someone at the appropriate pay grade had a looksee, never mind the online search for ammo. If he was actually trying to get caught, he would be excused for feeling like there was absolutely nothing he could fucking do to get someone to notice him.
There are interesting discussions to be had about where schools draw the lines in terms of false positive/missed cases in these instances, and what sort of criteria go into the decision. This particular case wouldn’t be in the “gray area” of any rational discussion.
sab
@debbie: This is heartbreaking all over again.
Have you read Andrew Solomon’s book ° Far From the Tree” about kids not lke their parents? Geniuses, prodigies, autistics, criminals, trans All kinds of kids. Many reachable, some not.
debbie
@sab:
I can’t imagine anything harder than being a parent.
sab
@debbie: Me neither. My spouse is one. The kids are alright ( except when they are not.)
sab
@debbie: Just a step-parent, so I don’t know.I think their actional mom is vile, but that is just me not understanding.
tom
This thread is pretty dead, but I want to say that the building the parents were hiding in has a pretty rich history.
columbusqueen
@Quencher: Probably a space for artists’ studios & work spaces; we’ve a lot of that kind of set-up in Columbus.
Ramona Rosario
@CaseyL: And these dolts don’t think that a depressed person is very likely buying a gun to commit suicide and having them wait until they are past their current crisis protects them rather than unfairly discriminates against the depressed? Of course, they don’t!