The January 6th committee referred Mark Meadows to the DoJ for a contempt of Congress charge last night. It was discussed here in Adam’s (highly recommended) post on the topic. But in case you missed it, here’s Liz Cheney reading several damning texts that Mark Meadows submitted before he stopped cooperating with the investigation into the attempted coup:
Cheney sets the stage by reading pleas from trapped lawmakers, making clear what everyone already knew: It was Trump’s mob, and he had the power to call it off. More interesting for reasons I’ll get to in a moment were the agonized demands from Trump fluffers who fretted about his “legacy,” expressing alarm Trump would ruin “everything we’ve worked for” by standing idly by as the mob sacked the Capitol. Texts in that vein came from a trio of Fox News personalities — Laura Ingraham, Brian Kilmeade and Sean Hannity — and namesake fail-son Donald Trump Jr.
Cheney called Trump’s inaction a “supreme dereliction of duty” and said the committee is exploring this question: “Did Donald Trump, through action or inaction, corruptly seek to obstruct or impede Congress’s official proceedings to count electoral votes?”
That’s the right question. I think Adam’s theory about the hearing is fascinating:
This contempt hearing is not just intended to hold Meadows in contempt, it is intended to disturb the network around Trump and see what happens without disrupting or taking down that network. Basically, the House Select Committee on the events of 6 January is running an influence operation on Trump and Trump world.”
Sounds about right to me. We’ll see what hornets fly out of the nest Cheney kicked over last night.
Open thread.
Geminid
Liz Cheney looks like she’s out for blood. She’s drawn the sword and thrown away the scabbard.
germy
Has there been any response from Laura Ingraham, Brian Kilmeade or Sean Hannity to what we learned last night?
germy
Kent
Is it just me, or is anyone else disturbed by the fact that a whole bunch of Fox News folks seem to have had both a direct line to the White House and an advisory role in governance. That we take this as normal seems to be burying the lede.
If say Rachel Maddow had a direct line to the White House chief of staff and was providing advice via text and cell phone, I expect the right wing would go ballistic.
schrodingers_cat
Did you guys see Jake Sherman’s tweet
germy
germy
Can someone translate? I don’t speak fluent turtle.
Gravenstone
Well, duh!
But wait, the fun is just getting started…
Ceci n est pas mon nym
So if Meadows is indicted on criminal contempt charges and his trial for those charges is scheduled sometime after Bannon’s and perhaps after the 2022 elections, have we gained anything?
Edit: Sorry. Don’t want to go the gloom-and-doom route. When Bannon’s charges were kicked down the road to July, it kind of rocked me. I’m trying to maintain my usual optimism here but I’m not there at the moment.
Gravenstone
@Kent: We’ve known this to be true of several their high profile hosts (most prominently Hannity) for a very long time. It was understood that Trump and Hannity spoke by phone nearly nightly.
waspuppet
@schrodingers_cat: My favorite reply was “Oh, you got a response.”
hueyplong
Well, gee, Mr Meadows, if you are complaining about the “selective” release of messages, I guess you think fairness compels the release of more of them for, you know, proper context.
Ms Cheney, you may fire when ready.
Kent
@Gravenstone: I know we know it and have known it for a long time.
The fact that we no longer seem to notice or comment about it is what disturbs me.
Gravenstone
@germy: I’m wondering if Turtle just fired a shot across the bow of multiple pains in his own ass, whom he suspects (if not outright knows) were involved in all the 1/6 madness. Of course, if he actually does know details, he himself is criminally negligent (perhaps complicit?) in not coming forward to the appropriate authority.
waspuppet
“Did Donald Trump, through action or inaction, corruptly seek to obstruct or impede Congress’s official proceedings to count electoral votes?”
People get convicted of murder who were sitting handcuffed in the back of a police car two miles away when the shots were fired, but we’re still investigating whether Donald Trump had anything to do with Jan. 6.
I understand going through procedures, but FFS if anyone still needs an example to illustrate what white privilege is*, it’s that anyone is asking this question like we don’t know the answer.
*(Above and beyond Donald Trump’s entire 75-year fall up the stairs of a life, that is …)
hueyplong
Should we infer from the failure to release a Tucker Carlson text begging Trump to call off the dogs that Tucker Carlson did not want the dogs called off?
Really hoping Cheney is saving a Carlson text for maximum impact.
hueyplong
@Gravenstone: Yes, and the bows over which he has fired shots are probably the SS Hawley and the SS Minnow (Cruz).
waspuppet
@Gravenstone: Possibly. Also possible he’s just toeing the standard incoherent wingnut line of “Jan. 6 was Nancy Pelosi’s fault because she didn’t do enough to stop the mob we sent to overthrow an election.”
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: As I understand it, the Jan 6 committee plans to hold their hearings well into 2022 as the midterms heat up. That could be useful
Joe Falco
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
We’ll have to wait and see if that will indeed be the case. If it does work out to be late summer when Meadows’ trial will be held, that’s still enough time for some illuminating answers to come out potentially. I still hope Meadows will break and start squawking.
Betty Cracker
@Kent: You’re right; it’s not normal. These revelations are a really great opportunity for Democrats to shine a bright light on Fox News, a propaganda outlet that’s been allowed to masquerade as a legit news org for far too long.
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: You’re not alone.
piratedan
@germy: this is typical Mitch, playing both ends imho. Sure, he may not have been involved in the planning stages, or even gave it his tacit blessing by not saying anything and is trying to come off here as a dubious honest broker.
I think he’s full of shit and knew about what was up but didn’t say anything to see how it played out. Much like he’s doing now, trying to allow Democrats to sabotage themselves and not draw any undue attention to himself that reminds us all what a complete piece of shit that he is… (in case any of us had forgotten, but then again, we’re not the Beltway Press Corp).
Hoodie
@piratedan: Turtle and crew are ready to shiv the Trumpists the minute it becomes safe to do so, but they’re abject cowards and cynics who would not stick their necks out to prevent Trump from executing a coup. Trump is a loser and causes more problems than he’s worth. However, they’re stuck with his cultists in order to win the elections they need to win to gain and retain power. Trump is impossible to control, and so are the nutcases in the House and Senate who have ridden on his coattails, so Turtle would rather be rid of them if he could do so without losing Trump voters. I’ve wondered at times if the whole Cheney gambit is an attempt to play both sides in case Trump and his hangers on implode. The bulk of the GOP gets to act like they’re with the cult and keep the Trumpists tied to the GOP but, if something like the Jan 6 commission gains traction and implicates Trump and some of the nuttier members of the GOP caucus and causes a nose dive in their popularity, we’ll suddenly have Republicans coming out of the woodwork to say they were shocked to learn that an actual insurrection plot was being executed on Jan 6 and, gee, isn’t Cheney a genuine GOP hero like Abe Lincoln.
Kristine
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Yup. I believe that if investigations/trials wrapped up during the first half of 2022, they’d be forgotten by the time the elections rolled around. Really damning things emerging during the last half of October would be harder for the damned to deny.
Something really bad coming out on the anniversary of Comey’s announcement would be poetic, but I’m not that picky.
Kent
@germy: Trump cost Turtle his majority leadership by meddling in the GA elections.
There is no love lost between those two I and I expect Turtle wants to speed the transition to the post-Trump GOP.
MattF
@germy: It’s very possible that he’s trolling Trump. There’s quite a bit of that these days.
Wvng
Several people have suggested that the real game plan behind d the riot was to stir up conflict with “leftists” and Try most rioters, which would have been the signal to send in the Guard and stop the count. The fact that “leftist agitators” didn’t appear screwed up the fame plan. The fact that Meadows said the Guard was on stand by to protect Trump’s people supports that. All those people frantically calling Meadows to stop Trump could have been doing that because the plan wasn’t working.
Geminid
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Former U. S. Attorney Joyce Vance tweeted the other day that the January 6 Committee had enough without Meadows’ cooperation to lay out the conspiracy, and that Meadows would end up “under the bus” anyway. But she was speaking of the Committee’s mission, not the question of punishment or the timeliness therof. The latter is a big concern for many people.
Captain C
@germy: Either he thinks it will help him get rid of some intraparty rivals, or he’s deluded himself that Democrats are just as responsible, or something. Or as often happens, he’s just flapping his jaws to distract from his own party’s crimes, sadism, and incompetence.
Captain C
@Gravenstone:
That said, I can totally see Turtle secretly ratting out Republican conspirators to enhance his own position.
UncleEbeneezer
@Captain C: Please proceed Turtle.
Jeffro
“when you come at the king, you best not miss” and all that.
I give her points for clarity: she and a very few other GOP officials seem to understand what’s at stake here.
Cameron
@germy: He has said nothing in response to continuous insults from the swinish oaf, and it looks like it’s his turn now. As they say in Spain, “turtle food is a dish best served cold.” Or some shit like that.
West of the Rockies
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I agree! Keep Republican malfeasance front and center to election day!
Jeffro
@hueyplong: Tucker’s texts to his own son would be interesting as he (the son) is on the staff of one of the main GQP House insurrectionists. He’s already admitted he was on the phone with his son while he (“Buckley”, blech) was in the Capitol during the insurrection.
Tucker has been off the hook (even for him) all year and I think this is a main reason why. The kid could easily go down for abetting of some sort.
Ksmiami
@germy: he wants to throw Trump et Al under the bus- esp under the bus with spiked wheels.
West of the Rockies
@piratedan:
You are correct. McConnell said all the right things on January 6th. But ever since then, he’s been impeding and denying and obfuscating.
MisterForkbeard
@germy: He knows there’s bad stuff there. So this is a “if it’s really bad I can claim I was paying attention and willing to listen” but more likely he’s going to claim that he was paying attention and that Democrats are on a witch hunt.
Mary G
@germy: My guess at Turtle translation: “I’m not stupid enough to put anything in writing or text. All my bidness is done with winks and nods.”
Mary G
@Jeffro: “I AM NO MAN!!!”
Irishweaver
@Kent: you hit the nail on the head!
West of the Rockies
@Jeffro:
Such traitorous behavior by Tuckems’ progeny would reflect poorly on pop. Mustn’t upset Daddy!
debbie
Getting all this out into the open is invaluable. Laura, Sean, and Brian all pussyed out when it most mattered. Maybe Kinzinger will step forward and read the tweets of MTG et al.
debbie
@Kent:
Last night, I was wondering whether any other administration had this kind of symbiotic relationship. Maybe only Twitter has made that possible.
Mike in NC
You know what part of Trump’s “legacy” we need to hear more about? The stuff about Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, and Prince Andrew involving underage girls.
Adam L Silverman
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Other than a possible conviction? No, no we have not. Contempt of Congress prosecutions are not intended to compel the accused to cooperate. They are intended to punish the accused for not cooperating and demonstrate to others that they should if they don’t want to also be punished. Any leverage the committee had goes away as soon as the unresponsive and/or defiant individual is held in contempt.
MattF
@Mike in NC: It’s known and documented that Trump was aware of Epstein’s behavior. More that that would be just rumor.
Betty
Did anyone else take note of the fact that no member of Congress or the Administration was named but the Fox people and Don Jr. were? Shouldn’t we know who sent the messages? If not, then why identify some? I also think it has been reported that the Congressman she referred to who conferred with Clark was Scott Perry, sad to say, my Representative.
Kristine
@Mike in NC:
As much as that needs to come out because it’s horrific, my fear is that the Clintons will be dragged into it —apparently Bill knew Epstein and rode in his jet—and that’s all the MSM will see.
debbie
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Seriously? You don’t think the text dump last night means anything? Prosecutions may not always end in convictions, but these clowns have now been publicly pilloried. Their silence today indicates they know this.
Mallard Filmore
@Wvng:
That has me wondering … if word of the plan was leaked to top leaders of the leftist agitators, to spread the word to stay away. If so, their security protocols are very tight as there have been no leaks of this warning.
debbie
@piratedan:
I don’t know. He was a Never Trumper before he became a supporter. Maybe he’s trying to get back to how it used to be. ??♀️
Mike in NC
@Gravenstone: Actually, we’ve heard that Trump and Hannity spoke via phone several times a day. Like Trump used to speak to his old mentor Roy Cohn many times a day. Since Cohn is long dead, Hannity is the new mentor.
Chris Johnson
@hueyplong: OK, I’m calling it. Here’s how I think things lay.
Trump has been Russia’s guy. Fox News is also Russia’s guys, very notably Tucker Carlson. They’re not under as much scrutiny as government employees and they’ve got a lot of freedom to go where they want, coordinate with whoever they like, and so on.
Mitch McConnell is ALSO Russia’s guy… kind of. But he’s careful and methodical, and Russia got bored with him and frustrated. And so, once Trump was in the White House, they tended to do an end run around McConnell and try to run Trump through the Fox people, up to and including the effort to overthrow the country on 1/6. This involved people like Flynn, but they were NOT going through McConnell to do it. They tried to use Trump to go rogue. And Trump fucked it up, they couldn’t get rid of Pence, they couldn’t do various things they needed to do such as get a left-wing presence there to blame… everything Trump touches dies, and Russia thought they didn’t have to go through McConnell because overthrowing the country was within their grasp through the Fox handlers and Trump.
McConnell is still Russia’s guy, but he’s pissed off because he figures they could have gone through him and he’d have done a better job. He’s going to be playing things very carefully, but he’s now very eager to throw a bunch of conspirators under the bus because they were the BOZO conspirators that his bosses ran with because they wouldn’t wait for him to do things properly.
tl;dr: Russia works through multiple channels and Fox is the asshole contingent that they tried to run Trump through. And Russia paid the price for this: their attempts failed, because Trump and Fox are assholes and ruin everything.
cain
Hope they throw “Contempt of Cat” against Meadows, I’m almost certain he’s offended a cat.
Eric S.
@Hoodie: I’m not convinced anyone in the GOP is that smart. I know they are all that hypocritical.
Mallard Filmore
@Chris Johnson:
This operation would have to be hermetically siloed to keep McConnell from taking himself out at the same time.
Adam would know if the Russians are up to that level of skill.
Wvng
@Mallard Filmore: There have been a number of Trumpy public gatherings in DC where lefties were publicly encouraged to stay away, and mostly did.
Brachiator
@Kent:
Unfortunately, this is just taken for granted. Fox viewers believe this proves the patriotism of Fox hosts.
Republicans revel in their hypocrisy.
I remember Rush Limbaugh and other conservative media figures being invited to an “off the record” White House meeting with Dubya or Cheney (or both) back in the day. They all thought this was entirely appropriate and I distinctly recall them brushing off every criticism, even from some moderate conservatives who thought it too partisan.
taumaturgo
The WH came out blasting the coup PP presentation calling it disappointing. Does anyone knows what this means?
Brachiator
There is no question that Trump should have been impeached, convicted and disqualified from ever again holding any federal office.
And yet you still have Lindsey Graham insisting that the GOP continue to nuzzle in Trump’s warm embrace.
The GOP is a death cult. They want to kill democracy. They want to kill America..
Old School
@taumaturgo:
—
Geminid
@Mallard Filmore: I was following Charlottesville antifa activist Molly Conger’s twitter account in early January. There was a lively debate among people saying “stay away,” and others maintaining that they had a duty to confront fascists every time and everywhere. In the event, the antifa forces that did show up ended up a few blocks west, with DC police separating them from some right wingers who did not join the Capitol assault.
Conger did go to the Capitol, and live tweeted events from a safe distance. When some buses show up late afternoon and law enforcement in riot gear disembarked, she and a sidekick from Richmond split.
debbie
@Brachiator:
They want power. Period.
Mary G
People at the Onion tearing their hair out:
Former US Senate candidate and first Maine resident to catch COVID Max Linn found dead in hot tub after being sued for pulling gun on former aide during cryptocurrency disagreement https://t.co/Q238V2UFwU
frosty
@Betty: So sorry Scott Perry is your rep. He was mine until the redistricting and now I’ve got Smucker who’s based in Lancaster and never bothers to cross the river.
At least he’s marginally better than Perry!
JPL
@piratedan: He’ll knife trump if he has the chance, because he wants to be leader. trump has the power to stop that.
Captain C
@Brachiator: At this point, I’ve arrived at the conclusion that a) there is some truly awful dirt out there on Senator Linz, as in years-in-jail type stuff, and b) even if he was squeaky-clean, he’d be doing the exact same thing he is now, since he’s a fundamentally a simpering turd who loves nothing more than to suck up to power that abuses him (his [other] nasty peccadillos coming in second in his hierarchy of likes).
JPL
@Captain C: Remember Russia hacked the RNC and I think Lindsay’s account.
sdhays
@piratedan: He’s not trying to be an honest anything. He’s aware that this could potentially completely blow up his chances of being Majority Leader again, while also extremely aware of how tied at the hip he and the party are to TFG.
Everything he does is about trying to limit the damage to the Republican “brand” while also keeping the MAGAt’s pissed and hot to vote. He wants to be able to wash his hands of all of this while also making the argument that it’s all about nothing.
Sloane Ranger
@Wvng:
That’s certainly a possibility. If the Members of Congress concerned had been assured that there would be a ruckus between the Trumpists and leftist groups, diverting them from sacking of the Capitol and physically attacking said Honourable Members, I can see them panicking if said diversion failed to materialise.
On the other hand, I’m not convinced anyone in the Trump White House was capable of that level of sophisticated planning. If they were, I would have thought they’d have arranged for a few Agents Provocateurs to hang around, just in case the real thing either didn’t turn up or didn’t want to engage in the way the plan needed.
Geminid
@Kristine: Bill Clinton has been dragged into the Epstein affair. He associated with Epstein, and may well have availed himself of some of Epstein’s women who were of legal age. Clinton may have cut his ties after Epstein’s sweetheart plea deal in 2008.
A former tech magazine “Boing Boing” partner and tech culture writer, Xeni Jardin has made a lot of interesting twitter observations about Epstein and Maxwell. In her words, Jardin “orbited” Epstein’s world for years, not knowing what was at the center. Epstein was intent on joining the tech titan world, and sponsored the Edge Foundation dinners where Jardin met him. She believes that this was fundamentally a blackmail and espionage operation.
I am hoping that when Jardin returns to serious journalism, she will write at length about these matters. This may not happen right away. When Jardin left Boing Boing last February, she said that her immediate plans “include weed and shitposting.”
Dan B
@Captain C: Commenters on gay blogs savage Lindsay. Whether we want it or not he’s considered to be a closet case, and likely a pedophile. But we’ve got monsters like Thiel and others so my attention is not on Lindsay’s true nature but on the openly gay RWNJ’s who are sure they’re wealthy enough that they’ll avoid the kiss of the leopard.
Cermet
Time is running out both for the committee and our democracy; come the mid-terms, the power in congress will switch hands and all investigations will stop. Then come 2024, out democracy die’s. Either they nail the rump very soon or else he becomes president select and rules us as imperial king.
Baud
@Geminid:
I have not heard any shred of evidence to this effect. If there isn’t any, it’s a pretty dangerous speculation given the environment we’re in.
Geminid
@Cermet: The January 6 Committee will finish it’s work by the end of next year. And the Justice Department will continue it’s work even if Republicans control both houses of Congress.
I don’t think they’ll control either house, though.
Spanky
@Baud: Thank you. Epstein was a sucker-upper, and who better than an ex-POTUS?
Geminid
@Baud: Dangerous how? I’m speculating about consensual legal acts.
Sloane Ranger
Open thread so will report that the UK Government’s plan to introduce COVID Passports for large events in England passed with Labour support a few hours ago. Nearly 100 Tory MP’s voted against the motion, as did the Lib Dems, a few Labour MP’s, the Ulster Unionists and the sole Green MP. Among those voting against the measure was a certain Jeremy Corbyn. It seems Jeremy isn’t that different from his brother of the weird ideas.
I liked the speech from Tory MP, Huw Merriman, who blasted the unvaccinated by asking why they should be allowed to put the lives and health of the 80% of his constituents who had done the right thing and got vaccinated at risk and ended by saying that with rights came responsibilities.
There was a smaller Tory rebellion against the mandatory mask mandate, just under 50 voted against it. My MP voted against both- naturally.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Mary G: That headline is peak 2021
Patricia Kayden
Spanky
@Sloane Ranger: Be comforted that at least some of your Tories are more responsible than any of our Republicans.
Baud
@Geminid:
Our society and media loves to make up stories about the Clintons and Dems in general that cast us in a negative light I don’t think we should engage in that behavior, even if the story involves only immorality rather than illegality.
Brachiator
@Sloane Ranger:
This is nuts. There was no leftist mob coming out to confront Trump supporters. Everyone except right wing nut cases was at home, expecting the Congress to just do the boring and ceremonial certification of the ballots.
The premise of a large band of leftist agitators floating around ready to rumble is just another feverish dream of MAGA idiots. They dress up in fighting gear, look at themselves in the mirror and imagine that there they have a commie doppleganger doing the same thing.
Redshift
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Similar to what Adam said, being convicted of contempt does not compel the target to testify or to turn over documents. Some people (even Meadows, perhaps), might feel enough pressure to look for a way to weasel out, but for the most part, it’s a signal to people who don’t have the means to pay a large fine or spend a year or two in prison that refusing to testify won’t be easy.
People like Bannon are going to treat it as a badge of honor in any case, so there’s really nothing lost by when his trial happens; while his fate is unresolved, the signal to everyone else is still there.
And numerous prosecutors have pointed out that investigations of all sorts rarely get the testimony of the guilty party, they’re built on the documentation and testimony of other witnesses.
Baud
@Sloane Ranger:
Fascinating. I thought parliamentary systems forced more party discipline than that. Shame about Corbyn.
Anyway
@Cermet:
oh no, be prepared for a lecture on predictions and uncertainty and gloom’n’doom
Anyway
@Baud:
especially when it’s all speculation without a shred of evidence. The only known thing is that Clinton accepted a plane ride. Whereas with prince Andrew there are possible witnesses..
Roger Moore
@Brachiator:
Shorter Lindsey Graham: Party over country.
Kent
@Brachiator: It would have happened in Portland. But Washington DC is not Portland.
Baud
@Brachiator:
I have no idea how that would have worked.
Roger Moore
@Sloane Ranger:
I think it’s entirely possible that people at the Trump White House were just sort of assuming there would be leftists around for their followers to clash with, so they didn’t bother to plant agents provocateur. It would be perfectly in keeping with the Trump way of doing things: ready to take advantage of the situation, but too lazy to create a really favorable situation for themselves.
Baud
@Anyway:
Yeah, people like to speculate about Trump too, but I also haven’t seen any evidence of that, notwithstanding my desire to nail him on something.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Geminid
@Baud: No one had to make up a story that Bill Clinton was a tom cat. Bill Clinton was a tom cat. And Jeffrey Epstein was a panderer. My understanding is that Clinton visited Epstein’s island several times. It’s true that he might have only looked.
Anyway, I was making the point that any sexual partners would have been of legal age. Epstein’s heinous crimes have made people assume that any sexual liason he enabled was with an underage girl. I think that was the implication the person who introduced Epstein to this thread was making about Donald Trump.
Skepticat
@Mary G: Those Senate debates were among the most bizarre I’ve ever seen, though I’d never been aware of him before. I wish it has stayed that way.
Brachiator
@Sloane Ranger:
I wonder why the Green MP voted against the measure.
The Lib Dems seem desperate to hold onto their irrelevance no matter what.
I may be reading this wrong, but I get the feeling that the Tories easily support vaccines. Boris Johnson always brings up how he championed everyone “getting the jab” as the signature achievement of his government.
But I get the impression that Tory backbenchers (if I have the term right) oppose masking, lockdowns and any other measures to control the pandemic, and that a group of these MPs might like to see Johnson toppled.
It is still an interesting question as to who has been sending all the details about Number 10 Christmas parties to the newspapers.
burnspbesq
It’s certainly interesting that Rep. Chaney’s question is framed in terms of the language of 18 U.S.C. section 1505 (Merrick Garland, please pick up the white courtesy phone). But I hope that the Committee is also thinking in terms of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which could use some enabling legislation setting forth a process for kicking people who engage in or give aid and comfort to insurrection out of public office.
Kristine
@Geminid: I follow Xeni, too, and have read some of the tweet streams. Sometimes I think it couldn’t be true and other times I wonder if it’s any different than any other honey pot operation. Feed the appetite and reel them in.
MomSense
@Mary G:
He’s from away.
/Mainahs
burnspbesq
@Brachiator:
The DUP did the right thing? Shocking!
danielx
@Cameron:
Untrue. Revenge is best served smoking hot and sweet.
But if one has to settle for what goes around, comes around…that’s okay too.
debbie
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I hope he’s feeling set upon.
Roger Moore
@Geminid:
I’m not sure what was happening with Epstein. It sounds as if he was more than happy to take advantage of underage girls himself; that certainly seems to be one of the messages of the Maxwell trial. But he could have done that without providing underage sex to others.
It seems very likely he was doing some blackmail, but that doesn’t seem like all he was doing. My impression is that he was eager to surround himself with talented and famous people, even if they weren’t interested in underage sex. That could have been some combination of looking for new clients/blackmail targets, providing cover for the operation, or just because he liked rubbing elbows with those people.
Baud
@Geminid:
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
Nobody gave a shit about the ceremonial counting of the ballots in early January except Trump and the idiots he stirred up. And a clash in the streets wouldn’t interrupt anything.
That’s for damn sure. We were lucky, this time, to have such a lazy dumbass authoritarian try to seize power.
Geminid
@Kristine: I think Epstein was a blackmailer. Instead of extorting payments, he got his wealthy partners in crime to invest their money with him. The espionage angle relies on a lot of supposition, and I don’t think the public will ever know the facts.
Roger Moore
@Brachiator:
I must have just imagined the band of idiots who show up ready to rumble any time the Proud Boys show their faces.
mrmoshpotato
@Kent:
Not just you. It’s fucked up. And the absolute trash that had the Soviet shitpile mobster conmanbaby’s fat, orange, fascist ear! Jesus fucking Himself!
Geminid
@Baud: Well, I don’t think the spokesman would deny this if it could be disproved, so I stand corrected.
Roger Moore
@Anyway:
With Prince Andrew, there is at least one accuser, and no particular reason to discount her story.
Baud
@Geminid:
Is there any facet of the Clintons’ lives that hasn’t become public?
Sloane Ranger
@Baud:
Normally they do, but, after all the fun and games of Brexit, the Brexiteers are getting bored being good little backbenchers, plus there are a number of Libertarians on the Tory benches who oppose new limits on individual behaviour on principle. Add to this some Tories who are worried they’ll be left out to dry by a quick Boris u-turn a la the Paterson affair and you have a veritable shitshow.
As for Labour, most of the rebels were on the left of the Party and seemed worried that Boris would use the vote to kickstart a “papers please” society.
Basically it highlights that both front benches aren’t in full control of their Party.
JoyceH
Forget large fine – if these people want to stiff-arm a subpoena, they might go to court and WIN, but paying the lawyers will still bankrupt them. The sort of lawyers you need for these kind of cases are mighty pricy.
Anyway
@Roger Moore:
Thanks for the correction.
Geminid
@Baud: I would think that there are, especially in the case of Bill Clinton for the twenty years after he left the Presidency.
Sebastian
@germy:
Their high priced lawyers, with whom they’ve been on Zoom nonstop since yesterday, probably told them for every statement they make, an additional zero will have to be added to the retainer.
Shit’s about to get real.
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
Prince Andrew thanks you for forgetting about him.
I don’t see any evidence of blackmail. And what would there be to blackmail anyone about, except for illegal sex with underage girls?
The sad reality is that people who engage in this vile stuff are often happy to keep the confidences of their clients, and to satisfy their desires.
I doubt that we will ever know why rich and famous people were so happy and at times eager to hang out with Epstein. Hell, I am still unclear as to exactly how he got so rich, if indeed he was rich at all.
Geminid
@Brachiator: There is a large fund that pays settlements to Epstein’s victims. It comes out of his estate, so it seems he had money when he died.
Brachiator
@Sloane Ranger:
Boris Johnson already has this. Right now it is limited to immigrants and people with dual citizenship.
Sadly, there are ordinary people on the right, left, and middle who lap up this vile nativism.
Sloane Ranger
@Brachiator:
No ones enamoured by them even non-Tories, but the revolt against masks was much smaller than that about COVID Passports.
As for whose leaking, I don’t know. One theory is that its Murdoch leaking stuff to the the left wing Daily Mirror because he thinks Boris has reached the end of his usefulness. Another is Dominic Cummings, using his remaining contacts at No.10 to extract revenge. Or it could be the Tory hard right, worried that Boris might actually be somwhat serious about climate change.
Brachiator
@Geminid:
Yeah, he had money. From what sources? Maybe it’s just that I find him so repulsive that I didn’t read biographical information on him closely.
Roger Moore
@Brachiator:
Epstein managed to get rich without any obvious source of money. That makes people very suspicious of the source of his wealth. The theory is that he blackmailed his clients into investing with him. Obviously this is difficult to prove, since nobody involved is eager to provide details.
It’s not entirely clear why people wanted to hang around with him, but he did all the classic stuff people do when they want to be surrounded by the powerful and famous. He gave money to worthy causes, gave influential people free rides on his private jet. had nice houses where he had parties, and so on. Again, that kind of thing could have served multiple purposes: a way of attracting new clients, a cover for their illegal activities, and personal gratification from being surrounded by the kind of people who live in that rarefied atmosphere.
Captain C
@Roger Moore:
Epstein was a ‘financier.’ Having direct knowledge, or better yet, evidence, of a well-heeled individual’s illegal tastes and habits is a good way to convince them to hire you as their financial guy and let you play with their money.
Warblewarble
What would John Yoo think of Meadows and other seditionists being waterboarded.
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
There were no opposition leftist agitators. I don’t know what else to tell you.
Almost makes you wonder how authentic past rumbles were.
artem1s
@Hoodie:
B.I.N.G.O. Cheney, TLP, et al is planning their NPR takeover of the Party. It’s planned and orchestrated. Darth Cheney’s daughter is doing her father proud – only with less swearing and shotgun blasts to her friends faces. They are counting on using this footage in their House campaign ads and fundraising appeals.
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
Well, yeah. If there is no obvious source, people would be suspicious. I am also unclear as to what he did to maintain or increase his wealth.
The theory is that he blackmailed his clients into investing with him. Obviously this is difficult to prove, since nobody involved is eager to provide details.
Whose theory, based on what evidence? Also, people who run Ponzi schemes lure suckers and pull them in. I have never heard of anyone saying “I am going to blackmail you into investing with me so that I can make you rich.”
Has anyone admitted to investing with Epstein? His wealth and connections are as mysterious as that of the fictional Count of Monte Cristo.
It’s not entirely clear why people wanted to hang around with him, but he did all the classic stuff people do when they want to be surrounded by the powerful and famous.
Did he surround himself with people, or did they actively flock to him? He reminds me somewhat of Dickens’ Mr Merdle:
And of course, Merdle turns out to be a total fraud.
I don’t know. For a time, people seemed hot to want to be with and around Epstein. Some seemed to even know the rumors that swirled around him, and didn’t care.
I recall a clip of a smiling Trump at a party saying with a wink about Epstein, “I hear he likes them young.”
And everyone just laughing.
Another Scott
@West of the Rockies: Yup.
And he voted to acquit TFG.
Twice.
Moscow Mitch has done more to enable the GQPers than just about anyone. Filibustering turned up to 11. Breaking all kinds of norms. Lying constantly.
No praise for anything he’s done from me.
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@Mallard Filmore: Everyone sensible was telling counter-protestors to stay away.
WaPo (from January 3):
She’d been saying similar things for weeks, IIRC. Based on what had happened at earlier protests in the summer and fall, she was doing what she could not to give TFG an excuse to federalize/militarize DC law enforcement (from June 2020).
Cheers,
Scott.
Procopius
@Gravenstone: This is just speculation, but I think McConnell is still pushing the line that the rioters were Antifa, supported by FBI paid “informants” and agents provocateurs. I can’t believe that he believes the Committee would release that information even if it were true.
Annie
@Geminid:
Bill Clinton did not need to “avail himself” of Epstein’s women. I have several friends who have met Clinton and they all say he is incredibly charming and much more attractive in person than you might expect.
docNC
None of this is surprising. Mark Meadows is Mark Meadows. His resume is suspect and he was a CoS because he is Mark Meadows. I hope he will go to jail.
Meanwhile, in gerrymandered NC I get a nice taxpayer-paid for flyer from Dan Bishop and he’s voted against the evil-Biden infrastructure bill (have you seen the roads around here?) and will lower taxes…sponsored a bill to allow COVID funds to go to lower taxes (which?).
Geez there are a lot of crazies from NC with influence on all Americans.
Hashtag put Mark Meadows in jail should be trending.
WaterGirl
@Patricia Kayden: I wonder if it’s Trump or the Trump organization. Two completely different things.
stinger
@Dan B:
What a great phrase!
Geminid
@Annie: I’ve always assumed that Bill Clinton is a very charming and attractive man. If he were single he would have a lot of choice when it came to sexual partners. Clinton isn’t, though; that and being a public figure reduces his prospects.
But the point I wanted to make was that while he might have had sex out of the public eye, it would not have been with a minor..
Chris Johnson
For once I think my hobbyhorse serves as a good mode of transportation. Russia ran Epstein and Trump for YEARS. All the girls were underage even if he said they weren’t. All the deals Trump put people onto, were Russian mob run. They were an entrapment machine. And if you get caught up in it, the only safety is in numbers: entrap others and it might go lightly for you. And this is why Trump is ‘rich’ and why Epstein was ‘rich’: Russian oligarch money and the power of the state.
Why didn’t anyone complain or call them out? Because they were building it all up to (a) President Trump (or I suppose President Epstein?) and (b) 1/6.
That is why you do all that. To overthrow the government, having seized enough control and compromised enough people that you can make the government, the media, the celebrities do anything you want. You’re not trying to take their money: you already have money, you’re the Russian mob. You’re trying to revenge yourself on their country.
Grum Grumby
@Jeffro:
Best political paragraph I have seen in a long time:
“Let us stop for a moment and consider the phenomenon of Rep. Liz Cheney, for whom I previously had no use whatsoever, and whom I one day again will have no use. At the moment, however, in this particular circumstance, she is very much like a shotgun you borrow from your most despised neighbor. On Monday night, it was left to Cheney to demonstrate a) how fully the on-air personalities of the Fox News Channel demolished what tiny shards of legitimacy that outfit had left, and b) how thoroughly infected American conservatism has become with the prion disease that it willingly acquired when Ronald Reagan first fed it the monkey brains in the late 1970s.”
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a38514277/mark-meadows-texts-fox-news-trump-conservatism/
Geminid
@Geminid: But I was wrong to suggest that Bill Clinton may have “availed himself” of Epstein’s women. He flew on Epstein’s Boeing 827 jet only four times in the early 2000’s. These overseas flights occurred when Bill Clinton was launching his foundation, and he was doing public appearances to further it’s goals. Epstein was known as a philanthropist at the time, and his 2008 plea deal for sex crimes in Florida was was years away. Epstein was cultivating a relationship, but there is no reason to believe it involved sex as I wrongly implied.
mardam
187 minutes, Alan!!! 187 minutes!!