Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Wake up. Grow up. Get in the fight.

White supremacy is terrorism.

Consistently wrong since 2002

“Let’s not pretend [Trump] wants to engage in high-minded discourse.”

It’s the corruption, stupid.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

Can we lighten up on the doomsday scenarios?

Celebrate the fucking wins.

The Supreme Court cannot be allowed to become the ultimate, unaccountable arbiter of everything.

In after Baud. Damn.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

Balloon Juice, where there is always someone who will say you’re doing it wrong.

T R E 4 5 O N

Well, whatever it is, it’s better than being a Republican.

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

FFS people, this was a good thing. take the win.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Tuesday Morning Open Thread: Person(s) of the Year

Tuesday Morning Open Thread: Person(s) of the Year

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The coronavirus is not a person, but the healthcare workers and epidemiologists are certainly more qualified than Time‘s predictable-after-the-fact choice.

Or even another popcult icon who’s a real humanitarian (and one with quite a large fan base of her own)…

Speaking of niche internet celebrities, a gift for the readership:


Looking at that yuuuuge plastic monstrosity, I can only repurpose a famous Rolling Stone quip: I didn’t know you *could* spend half a million bucks at Dollar General!

Reader Interactions

149Comments

  5. 5.

    MattF

    That exchange with Doocy is good for raising your blood pressure. Shows how to deal calmly with a troll.

  9. 9.

    Betty

    @MattF: The level of absurdity keeps reaching new heights. Bail decisions in NYC are under the control of the President? Not even dictators have that kind of power.

  11. 11.

    Brantl

    I think he needs to change his name to Douchie, legally, before he asks any more questions like that. But then, you’d also need to change the name of his network to Faux HorseShit, too.

  14. 14.

    Cameron

    Officer Goodman is far more deserving than some clown who wanted to live out his Star Trek fantasy

  15. 15.

    Geminid

    @PST: Virginia’s getting warm weather too. It’s still dry, though. We barely got a shower when the front came through Saturday night.

  16. 16.

    Gin & Tonic

    Bad, bad day in Belarus, as a number of activists and bloggers – including the husband of exiled former presidential candidate Svitlana Tsikhanouskaya – are sentenced to terms from 14 to 18 years in prison.

  18. 18.

    Betty Cracker

    I generally admire Psaki for being good at her job, but she needs to stop calling on that motherfucker. Better yet, the White House should revoke the troll network’s press credentials. Now is the perfect time thanks to the context of the January 6 committee revelations yesterday about the Fox News “personalities” who texted Mark Meadows during the attack on the Capitol Building. What further evidence is needed that Fox News is a political actor? Kick their asses out of that goddamned briefing room already!

  19. 19.

    Steeplejack

    A return to normal, somewhat. I checked out of Sighthound Hall yesterday afternoon and came back to my modest rooms in Threadkill Lane. All of my devices are back in their proper places at the command desk, I’ve got a cup of java working, and I’m subjecting myself to Morning Joe since the top of the hour. The old routine.

    My pain is greatly reduced, the swelling less so, in fact not much at all, which is slightly concerning. My surgeon didn’t tell me much ahead of time about what to expect, and I don’t have a follow-up call with him until next Monday. I believe he is on vacation now. The post-op nurse did cordially invite me to call the help line if I had any problems or questions. ? Guess I’ll take it day by day and see how it goes.

    ETA: I blame Biden for this.

  21. 21.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker:

    We saw how the media reacted when Biden left Afghanistan.  I think we can expect much worse if Biden kicks out Fox.  Leaving Afghanistan was worth the hit.  Not sure this is.

  23. 23.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    Doocy actually wrote and rehearsed that question, including the incredulous lil at the end. I wish she had said “that’s a genuinely stupid fucking question, even for clickbait. Tell your paymasters to send better trolls, because I’m never responding to your ridiculous bullshit in this room ever again.”

  24. 24.

    Cameron

    @Betty Cracker: Maybe it’s like a fitness routine for her: how fast can you come up with an intelligent response to a moronic, bad-faith question?  Is your qi powerful enough to demolish the idiocy (or is that idiodoocy)?

  25. 25.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: I think it’s totally worth it. I’m not sure how useful it is to compare the decision to withdraw from a 20-year war with the proposed move to revoke the press credentials of a propaganda network. But to continue the warfare analogy, Fox News has done more to destroy American democracy than al Qaeda ever did.

  26. 26.

    Steeplejack

    @Betty Cracker:

    Agree completely about revoking Fox’s White House press credentials, and now would be an excellent time to do it. With the departure of Chris Wallace (following Shepard Smith two years ago), the Fox apologists don’t have any more “serious” anchors to hide behind and claim that they are a legitimate “news” outfit. Bret Baier? Puh-leeze. He has been recorded numerous times spouting Fox propaganda on his “news” show. I don’t even know who else they’ve got (and don’t want to watch to find out).

    Let the other networks protest—and make explicit their reasons for defending Fox. I’d love to hear that.

  28. 28.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I’m thinking that when Lukashenko leaves office, it will be in a box. Thing is, that box may come earlier than he plans.

  31. 31.

    Geminid

    @Baud: I don’t see much harm in Doocy’s silly questions, aside from the discredit they reflect him and his network. I would like to see Psaki set Doocy up by skipping him for two or three days, though. Then she can recognize him, and if he starts whining Psaki can patiently explain why she was taking questions from other reporters that added value to the exchange.

  33. 33.

    Eolirin

    @Steeplejack: best time to yank their press credentials is right after congress releases incontrovertible proof that a number of their staff were actively involved in Jan 6th. That way every time it gets brought up the response can be that they actively aided in an attempt to overthrow the government.

  35. 35.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Steeplejack:

    He and his shitty network deserve no less. If anybody stands up to whine about it, she can say “you’re next. Tell your bosses to send me some wide-eyed, straight from high school AV club reporters who have no agenda or desire to write a book or build a CV on all their connections. I want people that ask straight questions and are legitimately inquisitive. That goes for the rest of you – you’re worthless and weak and I despise you all.”

  37. 37.

    Betty Cracker

    @The Thin Black Duke: I don’t think that’s necessarily the case anymore for reasons Steep articulated at #26. I remember how when Obama’s first press sec, Robert Gibbs, dissed Fox News, Jake Tapper prissily objected. Have you heard Tapper talk about Fox News lately? Dawn finally broke on Marblehead.

    @Geminid: Here’s the harm: treating Fox News like a regular news network give it an imprimatur of respectability that allows it to sell ads and make money. Fox News is a white grievance network that constantly stokes divisions and amplifies lies. Democrats should stop playing along.

  38. 38.

    Geminid

    @Baud: Well, in that case my clever stategem would not work. Still, I wouldn’t yank Doocy’s credential’s. That might make some people feel good momentarily, but it would not diminish his network’s power one bit.

  44. 44.

    hueyplong

    @Eolirin: I agree with the idea of waiting for an outrageous revelation that can be pointed to (and thereby reinforced) each time Psaki fields a question about why FoxNews has been banned/skipped over/whatever.

    Ingraham, et al., whining that Trump’s inaction is hurting the cause isn’t the thing to point to.  There’s worse waiting to be revealed.

  45. 45.

    Steeplejack

    @Geminid:

    “I don’t see much harm in Doocy’s silly questions.”

    Maybe because you don’t see the resulting clips on Fox after they have been sliced and diced to support their agenda (and to show Doocy pwning stupid Jen Psaki, hur-hur).

  46. 46.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Yesterday, a neighbor told me about telling her granddaughter that women who lived in her college dorm got married quickly because that would exempt their husbands from the draft (which I guess it did, early on). Anyway, the granddaughter said, “What’s the draft?”

  47. 47.

    trnc

    @Betty Cracker: I generally admire Psaki for being good at her job, but she needs to stop calling on that motherfucker. Better yet, the White House should revoke the troll network’s press credentials. Now is the perfect time thanks to the context of the January 6 committee revelations yesterday about the Fox News “personalities” who texted Mark Meadows during the attack on the Capitol Building.

    Yes to all of this.

  48. 48.

    hueyplong

    Anyone think MTG, Gozar, Gaetz, Jordan, Boebert, Cruz, Hawley and others had their colons tighten a bit last night?

    It will be interesting to see which ones get very quiet and which ones go all in on shrieking.

  50. 50.

    Steeplejack

    @zhena gogolia:

    Thanks. The pain lessening is a very big deal; the swelling is more of an inconvenience. I still feel very tired, which is going to be my excuse for sleeping at any and all hours.

  51. 51.

    Soprano2

    Elon Musk as Time’s Person of the Year is a decision you get when everyone in the room is dazzled and amazed by tech, as if it’s a new toy, and thinks tech bros are the smartest people in the world. Again, a bad decision made because everyone in the room (or almost everyone) comes at the decision from the same point of view.

  52. 52.

    OzarkHillbilly

    I’m with Geminid here. Banning FOX news will do very little to no good whatsoever and would in fact set a very bad precedent. That is the sort of thing autocrats like Putin, Erdogan, and Xi do.

  53. 53.

    MattF

    Doocy’s questions at the WH are pretty much the only direct regular contact between Foxworld and the Biden team. It’s a farce, but both sides know that. Foxworld gets to display their big boy status and Biden gets to display Fox’s bad faith. I think it’s pretty much a draw. At least Doocy has to wear a mask.

  54. 54.

    Betty Cracker

    @hueyplong: If there’s worse (that directly implicates Fox News) waiting to be revealed, the White House likely knows that, and perhaps you’re right that yanking Fox News’s credentials should happen then. But IMO, there’s plenty extant to justify kicking the fuckers out right now, including Ingraham’s whining about Trump “hurting all of us,” which leaves no daylight between the administration and the network.

    Maybe we’ve become inured to it through decades-long exposure, but it would be a giant scandal if any other network that is currently — and incorrectly — classified as a peer of Fox News was busted coordinating messaging with a Democratic president like that. Hell, MSNBC bounced Jon Meacham when The Times revealed he’d written a Biden speech.

  55. 55.

    Geminid

    @Betty Cracker: That is a good argument in the abstract, but I see no material effect from what you propose. The white grievance network would just have one more white grievance. Yanking their White House credentials would not dimish their audience, and they will have advertisers as long as they have an audience. A concerted effort to cut their bundled cable TV reach might be fruitful, but I’m not sure how their lack of a reporter at White House press briefings would tip the balance there.

    But I’m just speculating. We would know more if the White House actually banned Fox reporters from the pressroom. But I don’t think that will happen no matter how much people might wish it.

  56. 56.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    @Soprano2: Musk’s problem – well, one of many at any rate – is that he seems to be enraptured by the Rule of Cool. Look at the way he’s evolving the Tesla – self-driving cars with yokes for steering wheels and everything controlled from a touch-screen panel with no useful driving instrumentation? It’s like he’s decided to bring Knight Rider to life without wondering why all those cool Hollywood tech things haven’t been adapted to real life. (Steering wheel yokes, for crissakes. Yokes have been used on airplanes for a hundred years, and there are several good reasons why they never got adapted to automobiles.)

  57. 57.

    Betty Cracker

    @OzarkHillbilly: You okay with credentialling Alex Jones then? Is there any line at all, or must all bad-faith disinformation merchants be welcomed or else you’re an autocrat?

  58. 58.

    Ken

    @Bruce K in ATH-GR: I’d guess one of the reasons we don’t have yokes in cars is that the gearing (back when gears were involved) required full rotations of the wheel to turn the tires, and we’ve kept that ratio since. If Musk (well, his engineers) are changing that, I predict a number of accidents as people’s driving reflexes over-steer with the yoke.

  59. 59.

    oatler

    Strip Doocy to his underwear, put him in a cage in the corner of the room, just like SNL’s Sean Spicer did with the CNN reporter.

  60. 60.

    Elizabelle

    I’m good with banning Fox News and OAN and whatever other bottom feeders show up.

    White House press credentials should go to professional journalists, not to for-profit propaganda networks staffed by professional liars.

    Maybe it would be a great idea to replace the actual fake news purveyors with a rotating round of high school and college journalists.  You’d get more serious and responsible questions.

    Fox, etc. are actively damaging our democracy, and doing it for money and for a very small group of plutocrats’ motives.  Enough.

    Shit like that should not be hiding behind the First Amendment.  And certainly does not deserve White House press credentials.   Deplatform them, at least in the press room and on the aircraft.

  61. 61.

    Spanky

    @Geminid: Given your nym, I’m sure you went out last night for the shower. How was it? Up here we had high cirrus after moonset, so I stayed inside and warm.

  62. 62.

    Geminid

    @Spanky: I missed them! There was a bright moon the last time I was outside. Maybe tonight I’ll get out around 4:30am and catch the remainder. The moon will have set by then, and there is little ambient light where I live.

  63. 63.

    Betty Cracker

    @Geminid: If the White House denounced Fox News as a partisan propaganda network and kicked them out of the briefing room AND elected Democrats stopped going on Fox News, that would make ad buyers skittish, and the network would lose money. It’s happened on individual shows on Fox News lots of times. IIRC, that’s why they finally bounced whiteboard-phase Glenn Beck.

    It probably wouldn’t hurt Fox News with viewers, at least not at first. But there’s a chicken-egg conundrum here. It’s understandable if mostly non-political, low-info voters believe Fox News is a respectable network rather than a right-wing propaganda outfit. After all, both political parties act like Fox News is a real news network.

    Fox News feeds existing grievances, obviously, but maybe it also lures gullible people with flashy graphics and attractive, interchangeable presenters who confirm their vague biases, etc., and the network radicalizes them with a steady diet of divisive lies. I’ve seen it with my own elders. It turned my sweet old church lady grandma into a rage-addict. It’s insidious.

  64. 64.

    The Oracle of Solace

    @Elizabelle:

    Maybe it would be a great idea to replace the actual fake news purveyors with a rotating round of high school and college journalists.  You’d get more serious and responsible questions.

    I’m willing to give it a try! Dog knows the professional political journalists are acting like a bunch of cliquish high school students and college frat boys. Bringing in actual high schoolers & college students would do no harm and could be an improvement.

  65. 65.

    MattF

    @Betty Cracker: One shouldn’t underestimate Fox’s bond with their viewers. They’re clever. A lonely old person will want a friend— it’s no accident that the Fox morning show is called ‘Fox and Friends.’

  66. 66.

    hueyplong

    @Betty Cracker: Don’t get me wrong, I share your disgust with the daily act of pretending that bad faith propaganda mongering isn’t bad faith propaganda mongering, but last night felt a little like a pivot after which we’ll see the kind of things that make the case a whole lot more clearly than watching that clown be a clown.

    The Jan 6 commission is acting like a boa constrictor and that fact seems to be dawning on one and all.  Let them give another squeeze or two.

  67. 67.

    Geminid

    @Betty Cracker: Fox News certainly does a lot of damage to their audience. The audience skews skews old, so Fox probably already is not getting top rates for their ads.

    A question I would pose is, if banning Fox from White House briefings has such obvious merit, why isn’t it done? Psaki and her colleagues certainly are not all-wise, but they seem as practical and hardheaded as anyone here.

    Oh well, just another question to ask Ron Klain when he finally gets around to calling me.

  70. 70.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @rikyrah: I thought of him after I posted. (And btw, “Vice” is a great reminder of Cheney and the damage he did) I was startled by the granddaughter having no idea of what a draft was. What a rude shock its return would be.

  72. 72.

    Steeplejack

    @numfar:

    I believe Fox gets more revenue from cable subscriptions than from advertising.

    I saw a great niblet on Twitter last week that said Rupert Murdoch can afford to run Fox as a loss leader, because the real payoff is a passive, propagandized audience of zombies who hate Democrats (and all that they do) and won’t object to—will in fact support—the rapacious policies of the GQP. Or anything else that Murdoch cares to point them at.

  73. 73.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker: I’m OK with FOX news asking questions we don’t like. Doesn’t bother me in the least to watch Psaki pants Doocy day after day after day. I only wish she was even harsher on the doofus.

    The 1st Amendment is supposed to guarantee a free press. Kicking news organizations out for any reason other than actual criminal behavior isn’t really in line with with that idea.

  74. 74.

    Cameron

    It’s time to give it up for the real “person of the year,” the People’s Champion, Joe Manchin.  America’s Hero spoke wank to power yesterday when he called on the President and advised that he could not support – even in its current castrated condition – Build Back Better.  Absolutely could not, due to deep-seated (and constantly changing) concerns about inflation, deficits, WTF ever.  If we cannot honor a true patriot with a Person of the Year award, the very least we can do is award him a Golden Cluster of Collins’ Furrowed Brows, with inflatable Rand Paul Pendant.

  76. 76.

    CaseyL

    @numfar: I think it’s cable subscriptions – every cable TV subscription has to pay a fee to Fox, whether the viewer wants to or not, whether they watch Fox or not. Fox is included in all cable packages, even the most basic.  (That’s one of many reasons I cut the cord and went to an Internet-only provider.)

  78. 78.

    Betty Cracker

    @OzarkHillbilly: Not every outfit that calls itself a “news network” gets White House press credentials. I’m pretty sure there are standards that go beyond “actual criminal behavior.” Again, Alex Jones also asks “questions we don’t like” and calls himself a journalist. Should he be eligible for White House press credentials or nah? If not, why not?

  79. 79.

    Ghost of Joe Liebling*s Dog

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    It’s a pity the rest of the WH press corps doesn’t object to Fox’s presence.

    Recall “Jeff Gannon“. The WH press corps accepted him as One Of Their Own for about two years, no questions asked.

    I don’t know if they’ve learned much since then; it doesn’t look that way in daylight unless I take my glasses off and squint.

  81. 81.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker: Again, Alex Jones also asks “questions we don’t like” and calls himself a journalist. Should he be eligible for White House press credentials or nah? If not, why not?

    Why are you so intent on changing the subject? Alex Jones is not the issue here and giving him a chair in the press room is not on the table.

    We’re talking about Fox news. I don’t know by what standards news organizations are granted a seat in the press room and it’s beside the point as far as I am concerned because Fox is already in there. It has already been decided that they deserve a chair, and that they should be able to ask questions from time to time. Removing them should only be done for cause.

    What have they done that is so egregious they should be removed? Asking stupid questions? Most of the reporters in that room have been guilty of that. Editing footage to put their reporter/s in the best possible light? I doubt very much there is a TV news organization that hasn’t done that.

    I brought up criminal behavior only because it is a clear and succinct measuring stick. I suspect Jen P and crew have standards of behavior that they hold the reporters to that are short of criminal acts but I am not privy to them.

    Whatever those standards are, I’m pretty sure, “pissing me off” is not among them.

  82. 82.

    Princess

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    “Kicking news organizations out for any reason other than actual criminal behavior isn’t really in line with with that idea.”

    I agree completely. The question is, what makes something a news organization? Last night FOX News — not Ingraham, Hannity etc, but the shows that purport to be about reporting the most important things that have happened — evidently did not report on the story that many of the personalities employed by the network were begging Trump to call off his insurrection on Jan. 6th. My understanding is they were completely silent about what was definitely the biggest political story yesterday. At what point does even their news arm cease to be news, and begins to be merely “entertainment”? Maybe with the resignation of Wallace.

    I’m not claiming to have the answer to this, but that was the thing that, for the first time, made me think that maybe they should no longer be considered in any sense a news organization.

  84. 84.

    Jeffro

    @Betty Cracker: Now is the perfect time thanks to the context of the January 6 committee revelations yesterday about the Fox News “personalities” who texted Mark Meadows during the attack on the Capitol Building.

    YES

    And if Dems (Biden most especially) don’t promote the Faux hosts’ two-faced lying to their audiences later that same evening for at least a couple of weeks, they’re missing a great opportunity to cause screaming, agonizing cognitive dissonance to millions on the right.

  85. 85.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Princess: Every news organization in the world has to make decisions about what to cover. I choose what news organizations I follow based partly at least on those decisions. I don’t watch FOX news.

    Somewhere in the White House hierarchy there is a poor soul, probably more than one, tasked with that specific duty. Whoever they are, they aren’t paid enough.

  86. 86.

    Jeffro

    @Elizabelle:

    I’m good with banning Fox News and OAN and whatever other bottom feeders show up.  White House press credentials should go to professional journalists, not to for-profit propaganda networks staffed by professional liars.  Deplatform them, at least in the press room and on the aircraft.

    Totally agree with all of this.  Restore some sense of standards and deprive them of any veneer of legitimacy.

    And this

    Maybe it would be a great idea to replace the actual fake news purveyors with a rotating round of high school and college journalists.  You’d get more serious and responsible questions.

    would be completely, awesomely, excellent.  ‘Zoom’ in some local reporters from around the country (including college campuses)!  Show the yoots that their voices and questions count!

  87. 87.

    hueyplong

    Donald Trump Jr’s twitter account hasn’t had a new post since Sunday.

    I can’t think of a bad reason for that.

  90. 90.

    Another Scott

    @Betty Cracker: It looks like there are around 50 reporters in the press briefing room.  IIRC, they all get called on every day.

    FN is a cancer, but …

    CJR.org (from May 2019):

    IN WHAT APPEARS TO BE an unprecedented move, the White House revoked the press passes of a significant chunk of the Washington press corps because they didn’t meet a new standard, according to Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank. Under the new rules, rolled out earlier this year, in order to qualify for the highest level of access—known as a “hard pass”—journalists had to be present in the White House for at least 90 days out of a 180-day period. According to Milbank, virtually the entire press corps failed to meet this new test, including all six of the Post’s White House correspondents. Media outlets then had to apply for exceptions to cover their senior journalists, or settle for six-month passes, which don’t allow as much access.

    The Post applied for and was granted exceptions for its White House correspondents, Milbank says, but he was not given one. “I strongly suspect it’s because I’m a Trump critic,” he wrote on Wednesday. “The move is perfectly in line with Trump’s banning of certain news organizations, including The Post, from his campaign events and his threats to revoke White House credentials of journalists he doesn’t like.” Milbank noted that, since dozens of senior correspondents didn’t meet the new standards either, “they all serve at the pleasure of Press Secretary Sarah Sanders” and “therefore, in theory, can have their credentials revoked any time they annoy Trump or his aides.” (The White House press secretary told the Post the move was a result of security concerns, not a desire to crack down on specific journalists.)

    Biden’s right not to go down that road.

    Psaki handles him well. He gets 2% of the time and that’s plenty.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  91. 91.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Fox News viewership is, according to my quick google, in the low seven digits. I see estimates of 2.5M, let’s double that for virality. I find the idea that some righteous pose struck by the White House will have some dramatic effect unconvincing.

    Here’s CNN– which in my mind is the USAToday of cable networks, made for hotel lobbies and waiting rooms– telling people that Fox News hosts are liars. “Fox hosts exposed in texts for selling their audience lies”

    Speaking of USAToday, they ran an oped yesterday calling on the Senate to do a filibuster carve-out for votings rights. Does anyone think Manchin or Sinema even noticed?

  92. 92.

    UncleEbeneezer

    DC Attorney General Karl A. Racine:  Today at noon I’ll be holding a press conference to make a major announcement about the January 6th insurrection. Watch live on Twitter or Facebook.

  93. 93.

    Captain C

    @Steeplejack:

    Let the other networks protest—and make explicit their reasons for defending Fox. I’d love to hear that.

    NY Times:  After single-handedly destroying a pristine Afghanistan all by himself, Biden now bans the one news organization more honest, important, and accurate than ourselves.

  95. 95.

    Betty Cracker

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    What have they done that is so egregious they should be removed?

    Are you fucking kidding me? You keep framing the objection to Fox News in terms of “pissing me off” or “questions we don’t like,” as if it’s an objection to tough questions like “is burning a $500K Christmas tree good governance.” That’s a red herring, IMO. Of course legit news networks will ask dumb questions, and that has to be tolerated. The point is, Fox News isn’t a legit news network.

    One reason I asked you about Jones is because I was trying to figure out how you define a “news organization” since you brought up 1A press protections. But IMO, 1A protection in this context is also a red herring because no one is arguing that Fox News should be shut down.

    My point is Democrats should stop treating Fox News as if it’s equivalent to ABC or CBS or NBC or CNN or the NYT or WaPo, which are flawed organizations but not full-fledged propaganda outfits and direct political actors. I was trying to see if you had a red line for excluding outfits that claim to be news networks from the briefing room, and now you’ve (sort of) drawn one: “Fox is already in there.”

    I don’t think it’s a good line, but okay. I’d ask a follow-up question to explore your limits for tolerating behavior from briefing room incumbents, but I suspect you’d accuse me of changing the subject again, so never mind that. The real question is whether Psaki specifically and Democrats in general should continue to pretend Fox News is a real news organization when it’s working 24/7 to undermine democracy — to the point that even people like Jonah Goldberg are heading for the exits. I say no.

  98. 98.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @zhena gogolia: that’s disappointing. I mostly know Junger as a name, though I’m sure I’ve read something by him over these long years, if not any of his books (googling to double-check, I see he wrote The Perfect Storm). The emotional investment so many big name journalists (using that word in a very broad context) have in Afghanistan is baffling to me. I don’t remember this kind of outrage when trump invited the Taliban, who are after all the villains who would be weeping helplessly in a cave somewhere if it weren’t for Biden, to Camp David.

  99. 99.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Eolirin:

    That way every time it gets brought up the response can be that they actively aided in an attempt to overthrow the government…

    …that resulted in the death of at least one police officer, serious injuries to other officers, and significant property damage.

    That’s what the rightwing fucktards claim they care about: blue lives and property. So give it to them and give it to them good.

    Oh, and it made the Baby Jesus cry.

  101. 101.

    burnspbesq

    @Soprano2:

    I have no shortage of issues with Elon and his companies, but by the criteria Time has used for a very long time—the criteria that allowed them to choose Hitler sometime in the 1930s—he’s not a completely off-the-wall choice.

  103. 103.

    Irishweaver

    @Betty Cracker:

    Thank you for mentioning the fact that the Fox network personalities were communicating with Mark Meadows.   It is noteworthy in a very bad way that TV personalities are advising the President’s Chief of Staff! .

  105. 105.

    Gravenstone

    @Irishweaver: Shit, several of them (notably Hannity) regularly “advised” Trump directly. That’s what I find most curious about these texts – was Meadows the second avenue after Trump failed to respond to direct appeals from one of more parties involved?

  106. 106.

    zhena gogolia

    @Gravenstone: As someone noted last night, it’s standard mob boss behavior. You don’t communicate directly with the mob boss so he stays clean. You have to communicate through his flunky, who takes the rap.

    ETA: Michael Cohen described it all lucidly to some congressional committee.

  109. 109.

    Brachiator

    Elon Musk as Time’s Person of the Year is a decision you get when everyone in the room is dazzled and amazed by tech, as if it’s a new toy, and thinks tech bros are the smartest people in the world.

    Time Magazine still exists?

    There was a time when I subscribed to both Time and Newsweek, and occasionally bought copies of US News and World Report. But that was in an earlier century. The 1900s. I cannot even remember the last time I visited their web site. And since the pandemic, I don’t go out as much anymore, and do not often go past the few remaining newsstands that have physical copies of the magazine.

    I realize that I have absolutely no use for a news weekly or news monthly.  My mind does not even think in those terms anymore. I guess I have adapted to the Internet. So, Time is just a brand name, moldy and obsolete, along with Life, Look, The Saturday Evening Post, Reader’s Digest.

    Otherwise, I don’t have much problem with Musk being the selection, although many others could have been. I also see that the vaccine scientists were the Heroes of the Year. Probably would have been my choice for Person of the Year.

  110. 110.

    germy

    BREAKING: I’m suing the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, the first civil lawsuit by a government entity against the Jan. 6 insurrectionists. They caused extensive damage to the District, our democracy and particularly the brave men and women of our Metropolitan Police Department.— AG Karl A. Racine (@AGKarlRacine) December 14, 2021

  111. 111.

    Spanky

    FWIW, the DC Attorney General announced that he’s suing Proud Boys and Oaf Keepers over the Jan 6 attacks. Dunno what impact that’ll have on the MAGA insurrectionists generally.

  116. 116.

    Geminid

    @germy: Those Meadows texts have got a lot of people scared. Meadows was a little late in deciding to stonewall the January 6 Committee. A lot of horses got out of the barn before he slammed the door. Now he’s pissed everybody off.

  118. 118.

    Captain C

    @zhena gogolia: It’s like they don’t even want to know that there’s more to know about the issue (and who really screwed things up on our end).  If it weren’t for the fact that lots of Afghans would suffer, I’d love to see what one of these yahoos would do if actually put in charge there.  I’m guessing they’d last about 5 minutes and nope out, or try to genocide their way out of the problem without calling it that (and then blaming someone else, probably a Democrat, for their horrible fuckups, probably while demanding to be rewarded and acclaimed for said fuckups at the same time).

  119. 119.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Captain C: What you described is what happened. A 100% Republican fuck-up that killed hundreds of thousands of people, all being blamed on a Democrat.

    And that’s where we’re heading with Covid. Estimates of 40-90% of deaths in the US are attributable to the Republicans’ fucked up response. Hell, there’s an argument to be made that a significant portion of deaths worldwide have happened because Trump couldn’t just let the professionals handle the initial response.

  120. 120.

    L85NJGT

    @Brachiator:

    Person of the Year is as culturally relevant as Playmate of the Year. Squeezing out whatever brand value is left with clickbait for old farts.

  121. 121.

    hueyplong

    Prime Asshole and Jan 6 weapons/ammo carrier Cleveland Meredith sentenced to 28 months in prison (11 have already been served).  Wish it had been even longer.

  122. 122.

    Ruckus

    I didn’t know you *could* spend half a million bucks at Dollar General!

    Not even in a lifetime. And it seems far more likely one wouldn’t want to even if they could…..

  125. 125.

    Miss Bianca

    @schrodingers_cat: I protest! “Vanity Fair” is an obscure reference! I mean, who the hell reads Pilgrim’s Progress anymore, anyways?//

    (well, ok, it’s been on my To-Read list for ages, but I still haven’t actually read it.)

  128. 128.

    Jinchi

    @The Lodger: Who appraised that tree? Someone recommended by Trump?

    It wasn’t even a tree. It was a cone shaped scaffold with branches overlaid on it.

  130. 130.

    Jinchi

    @Betty Cracker: I generally admire Psaki for being good at her job, but she needs to stop calling on that motherfucker.

    I’ve been thinking the same, I assume we’re just seeing cherry picking of clips.

    Does she regularly call on all reporters (and we only see the clips of Doocey being an idiot)? Or does he really get called on more than most?

  133. 133.

    Matt McIrvin

    @schrodingers_cat: There were Republicans grandstanding about how Biden had shafted the Afghans while moving to keep Afghan refugees out of their state. It was amazingly shameless.

  135. 135.

    debbie

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Yes, I’m disappointed in his both-sidsing. He embedded in some remote outpost in Afghanistan and reported from there during a period of fierce fighting. I always thought he was a great writer and would hate to know he’s gone mainstream milktoast.

  137. 137.

    matt

    @Jinchi: I read somewhere she calls everyone. Doocy just gets a lot of these clips because he has a big team writing up pissy questions and she answers them.

  140. 140.

    Ruckus

    @Betty Cracker:

    OTOH, while his supporters will likely never get it, she gets to make fun of faux on a daily basis. His questions are intellectually beneath a level that a first grader might ask while trying to be a smart ass, and she proves it each time she calls on him.

    The weather channel says drizzle here but the rain just coming down was about as hard as I’ve ever seen anywhere. At least this is not as continuous as the storm in January 1969 was, when people were discussing building an ark, and were serious.

  143. 143.

    Geminid

    @debbie: I dont think those crazy Representatives have been subpoenaed. My theory is that staffers were the most closely involved with the insurrection. But there is no news on that as far as I know.

    The January 6 Committee hearings will be good. Liz Cheney looks like she is out for blood, and I think she’s not the only one.

  146. 146.

    Dan B

    @Ken: Juse watched a Sandy Munro program on the Tesla Plaid, the one with the yoke steering.  My partner is a gear head / car nut.  The steering was a bit touchy.  It was easy to oversteer a bit.  They felt it would be an issue at high speed and Tesla should compensate. Otherwise they liked the yoke.

  147. 147.

    Ruckus

    No matter how crappy some journalists are, they work for someone else. Now if I was a journalist of say Doocy’s level, I’d bet that I’d have to work for faux news or find another line of work. Because I really don’t have that skill. What I’m saying is that Doocy doesn’t either. (And yes I think I could be better than him, as could a large segment of humans.) But the above leads to another point, all of the reporters in that room work for a news organization, represent that organization, and may or may not actually see things the same as the owner/head of that news organization. But they get paid to present the news as seen/believed by the owner. They tell us what the owner wants us to hear. Decades ago we saw/heard a more condensed view of daily events because we had what 2 or 3 hrs of news. Now it’s a very competitive entity on 24 hr news showS, on their own channels, on TV, radio, the web. All with it’s own slant that mirrors the owners slant on the world, because that’s who pays those reporters/presenters for it. Doocy may or may not be an idiot, but he does what he does because that’s what he gets paid for, and likely paid well. His personal politics may or may not agree with the owner of the business he gets paid by.

    On the point of removing faux news from the WH, does anyone think that will change faux news? Other than making them worse? We have the concept of free speech here. That means one is free to be as big an ass vocally or in print as they desire. There are some limits of course, yelling fire in a public space when that isn’t true to cause panic for example, but the reality is that Doocy should have the right to make an ass out of himself, it is part of the cost of free speech. And yes I see the humor of joining an organization that is supposed to protect that right, the US military, which by doing so, one gives up that right, or at least raises the cost far higher. This country is paradox, in that in theory we are have the most freedom in the world because of the type of our government and because we have a political party that does not seem to understand anything about what a democracy actually is and what it actually costs. There are limits to every human on this planet, if the concept is that we all have the rights we are told we do, because everyone else has them as well. We have to come to an understanding of what a democracy really is and live that. And it isn’t restricting speech just because it’s ignorant and stupid. It’s a line but it is a line that has  to have a lot of room on both sides or it doesn’t work.

  148. 148.

    Betty Cracker

    @Ruckus: So are you saying there’s really no such thing as a news organization and that all of the network divisions / channels that call themselves that — MSNBC, CNN, Fox News, CBS News, etc. — are all just organizations that corruptly represent the view of their owners, and there’s essentially no difference between them? That’s a steaming load of horse shit.

    Also, the free speech argument is a big fat red herring, essentially no different from the wingnut screeching about cancel culture. No one is suggesting that Fox News be shut down. Or at least I’m not. I’m saying the political party that Fox News was conjured into existence to sandbag and destroy should stop pretending that Fox News is a legitimate actor. They are not.

    And to the folks arguing that it’s okay to keep pretending people like Doocy are regular White House correspondents rather than propagandists because Psaki does a good job of putting him in his place, look around yourselves and see what’s happened in this country in the last 25 years, think about how much Fox News has contributed to that, and then come back and tell me it’s harmless. It’s not.

  149. 149.

    Ruckus

    @Betty Cracker:

    OK I didn’t say all of them were bad, and could very likely been far clearer but what I said was that they, like every other employer-employee system follows the job concepts of the employer, the person in charge in the duties of that job, be it a reporter or a barber or machinist or whatever. It is one reason some like to work for themselves rather than an employer. That does not make all the companies in any line of work good or bad, that is up to the people that own and run the organization

    We actually are on the same page, except that I think it goes back farther than 25 yrs. I’m not disagreeing with you, I just am long winded and often leave out things because of that, trying to not be so long winded.

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