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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

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Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Let me file that under fuck it.

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Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

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Cole is on a roll !

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Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

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You are here: Home / Anderson On Health Insurance / And that is a kick in the groin

And that is a kick in the groin

by David Anderson|  December 17, 20212:08 pm| 60 Comments

This post is in: Anderson On Health Insurance, COVID-19 Coronavirus

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Pfizer just reported its #vaccine doesn’t perform well in 2-5 year-olds.

This is what science looks like: we get mixed findings and try to communicate with transparency.

Lots of parents want protection for their kids. Stay tuned. ❤️

— Scott Hadland, MD (@DrScottHadland) December 17, 2021

Pfizer is applying to modify their protocol to add a third shot to the sequence to see if they can get an antibody reaction similar to older kids and adults for this age group.

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Reader Interactions

60Comments

  1. 1.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    December 17, 2021 at 2:16 pm

    I did not need to see this title in my current state.

  2. 2.

    JPL

    December 17, 2021 at 2:18 pm

    Ten minutes before the announcement, son and I were discussing how great it was going to be for the grand imps to be vaccinated.

  3. 3.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    December 17, 2021 at 2:19 pm

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    Everything ok?

  4. 4.

    VeniceRiley

    December 17, 2021 at 2:20 pm

    @JPL: Ouch. I’m so sorry!

  5. 5.

    Baud

    December 17, 2021 at 2:20 pm

    I blame the children.

  6. 6.

    Another Scott

    December 17, 2021 at 2:22 pm

    Interesting. I could have sworn I heard someone on the radio saying yesterday or so that the dose was 1/10 of the adult dose and (roughly) “it produces an immune response just as intense as in adults”.

    There’s too much shooting-from-the-hip and wishful thinking about this stuff in the mass media.

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  7. 7.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    December 17, 2021 at 2:25 pm

    @Another Scott:

    I’m old enough to remember when the media Jan-Feb 2020, in an attempt to provide “balance” and both sides the COVID outbreak in China, compared it to seasonal flu…

  8. 8.

    Mousebumples

    December 17, 2021 at 2:27 pm

    Speaking as the parent of a 2 year old – well, crap. ?

    Here’s hoping Moderna is having better luck.

  9. 9.

    VeniceRiley

    December 17, 2021 at 2:31 pm

    Are they testing their new pills in this age group, I wonder?

  10. 10.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    December 17, 2021 at 2:41 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    I am recovering from surgery in that area. Progress is good, but I don’t need triggers. ?

  11. 11.

    scav

    December 17, 2021 at 2:57 pm

    On the plus side, finally one of the jan 6 Rioters got a five year sentence (after pleading guilty) for his repeatedly dumbshit escapades.  WaPo.

  12. 12.

    rikyrah

    December 17, 2021 at 2:59 pm

    This makes me sad :(

  13. 13.

    JPL

    December 17, 2021 at 3:03 pm

    @rikyrah: Why not approve for six months until 24 months.   At least that way infants are protected.

    bah humbug

  14. 14.

    Ratt

    December 17, 2021 at 3:14 pm

    It’s interesting tho, isn’t it?

  15. 15.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    December 17, 2021 at 3:19 pm

    That is really too bad.

  16. 16.

    Brachiator

    December 17, 2021 at 3:29 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    I’m old enough to remember when the media Jan-Feb 2020, in an attempt to provide “balance” and both sides the COVID outbreak in China, compared it to seasonal flu…

    Hell, I am old enough to remember when Omicron was brand new and people were wondering if it might spread. And now this:

    Omicron has now replaced Delta to become the dominant variant of Covid in England, new analysis suggests….

    In London, four out of five cases tested were Omicron, while in the North East it is 27%.

    Also, the Omicron variant is now thought to have replaced Delta as the dominant form of the virus in Scotland.

    Good news is that the booster appears to be very effective and cases continue to be mild.

    But damn, this variant is a fast spreading little sucker!

  17. 17.

    JPL

    December 17, 2021 at 3:31 pm

    @Brachiator: I did read children are susceptible to the virus.   Hospitals are seeing more cases, which makes the news today, really sad.

  18. 18.

    Baud

    December 17, 2021 at 3:33 pm

    @Brachiator: 

    Fast may be better than slow in some ways, but it may put more pressure on hospitals.

  19. 19.

    JPL

    December 17, 2021 at 3:36 pm

    fkfk   Fauci is saying probably the second quarter for under five.   It’s important to get it right.

  20. 20.

    Baud

    December 17, 2021 at 3:43 pm

    @JPL:

    It’s important to get it right.

    When I’m president, that’s something you’ll never have to worry about.

  21. 21.

    Roger Moore

    December 17, 2021 at 3:48 pm

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    That is really too bad.

    It’s too bad the vaccine doesn’t work as expected.  It’s good that we know and won’t be vaccinating kids ineffectively.

  22. 22.

    trollhattan

    December 17, 2021 at 3:51 pm

    That’s a shame, but there are other vaccines and they may be able to tweak the current Pfizer to work better. Stuff’s rather magical when a rube like myself digs a little into how they build mRNA vaccines.

    Just now reviewing the county’s dashboard where they report a whopping 42k 5-11s have received a vaccine. Good response, I think. Nearly 200k 12-19s on top of that. IMO this reduces the liklihood of repeating last holiday’s huge case surge, which coincided with all those kids being out of school.

  23. 23.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    December 17, 2021 at 3:53 pm

    @Baud:

    This. I wonder how many “excess deaths” there will be from other causes because patients couldn’t get a hospital bed.

  24. 24.

    trollhattan

    December 17, 2021 at 3:53 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Time from exposure to symptoms supposedly something like half, which makes catching it pre-transmission stage nearly impossible.

  25. 25.

    scav

    December 17, 2021 at 3:59 pm

    All in all, I’d rather see them follow the data rather than our hopes and their sales.  Also that they started with low doses and will be testing up.  Disappointing, sure, but we’re still benefitting from a phenomenal scientific baseline.  It’s the civilian meatware that’s been letting us down (when not actively savaging our communal chances).

  26. 26.

    raven

    December 17, 2021 at 4:00 pm

    More fodder for the anti-vaxxers. J&J doesn’t work, Pfizer doesn’t work, even if you are triple vaxxed the BJ “community” says get in the fucking bunker.

  27. 27.

    Feathers

    December 17, 2021 at 4:04 pm

    Man. Terrible. The local branch library near me is basically half kids library and you see them in their little masks so happy to see each other. And their parents to get out of the house. Sometimes the lobby is full of strollers.

    Got a really weird bad stuffed nose Wednesday. Took NyQuill was still stuffed in the morning, took a Dayquill and haven’t had a real problem since. It was a strange 12 hours though. Feeling paranoid, although I’m vaxxed and boosted and been good about masking and distancing. Ugh.

    ETA Needless to say, I haven’t left the apartment since.

  28. 28.

    WaterGirl

    December 17, 2021 at 4:24 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Good news is that the booster appears to be very effective

    The boosters are really effective in general – 6 times the antibodies with Moderna booster vs. just 2 shots of Moderna.

    But I just read an article today that says Pfizer is only 33% effective for Omicron symptomatic infections.

    Omicron is a whole different ballgame.  That’s what has me looking at changing my plans.

  29. 29.

    gvg

    December 17, 2021 at 4:25 pm

    @Feathers: ​
     The home covid tests are now available. Around here Walmart has them 2 for $14. CVS and Walgreens have them around $27 and seem to be out pretty often. I think the cheaper price means people might actually use them instead of saving them for when they feel really bad.

  30. 30.

    frosty

    December 17, 2021 at 4:26 pm

    @Steeplejack (phone): Ouch! No kidding!

  31. 31.

    WaterGirl

    December 17, 2021 at 4:26 pm

    @raven: Surely you are aware the the current vaccines are much less effective against Omicron, right?

  32. 32.

    WaterGirl

    December 17, 2021 at 4:27 pm

    @Steeplejack (phone): Maybe shrinkage at the thought will help with the swelling?

    ~Pollyanna

  33. 33.

    Baud

    December 17, 2021 at 4:28 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    But I just read an article today that says Pfizer is only 33% effective for Omicron symptomatic infections.

     
    With the booster?

  34. 34.

    gvg

    December 17, 2021 at 4:29 pm

    @Mousebumples: Moderna hasn’t even submitted data for the under 18 as far as I know. Not sure why. I wish they were. My nephews got Pfizer of course but for adults Moderna is holding up better. I was Pfizer originally but chose a Moderna booster….hoping that helps.

  35. 35.

    raven

    December 17, 2021 at 4:32 pm

    @WaterGirl: It depends on who you listen to

     
    The COVID-19 booster shots appear to be stopping the omicron variant, raising doubt that we will need an omicron-specific vaccine in the future, according to Dr. Anthony Fauci.
    Fauci, the White House chief medical adviser on the coronavirus, said Wednesday that there is no need to change the current booster shots to be more directed at omicron, CNBC reports.

    • “Our booster vaccine regimens work against omicron,” Fauci said. “At this point, there is no need for a variant-specific booster.”

    RELATED

    The CDC’s COVID-19 booster recommendation has a major flaw, expert says
    Does the COVID-19 booster shot protect you if you’ve had COVID?

    Fauci said that the original two-dose regimen of the vaccine still works to fight off omicron pretty well, though there is less protection.

    • “Obviously, this is significantly down but there is the maintaining of a degree of protection against hospitalization,” Fauci said.
  36. 36.

    Baud

    December 17, 2021 at 4:32 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    Pfizer-BioNTech’s COVID-19 vaccine has been less effective in South Africa at keeping people infected with the virus out of hospital since the Omicron variant emerged last month, a real-world study published on Tuesday showed.
    Between Nov. 15 and Dec. 7, people who had received two doses of the shot had a 70% chance of avoiding hospitalisation, down from 93% during the previous wave of Delta infections, the study showed.

    When it came to avoiding infection altogether, the study by South Africa’s largest private health insurance administrator, Discovery Health, showed that protection against catching COVID-19 had slumped to 33% from 80% previously.

  37. 37.

    WaterGirl

    December 17, 2021 at 4:34 pm

    @Baud: I believe so.  That was my impression anyway, but I don’t recall that they made a distinction.  If there was a distinction, one would think the article would have mentioned it.

    But who knows?

  38. 38.

    Suzanne

    December 17, 2021 at 4:37 pm

    Fuck. Fuck.

  39. 39.

    raven

    December 17, 2021 at 4:49 pm

    @WaterGirl: This is what’s got me not feeling like believing anything. “I read an article” to “surely you are aware”? I’m aware that there is plenty of in and mis-in formation going around and I’m just not prepared to freak out.

  40. 40.

    raven

    December 17, 2021 at 4:51 pm

    @WaterGirl: Here’s your article

     

    Two doses of Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine seem to provide just 33% protection against infection with the omicron coronavirus variant but still give strong protection against severe illness, according to a real-world study from South Africa’s largest health insurer, promising early findings as governments around the world battle to contain the fast-moving variant.

  41. 41.

    Brachiator

    December 17, 2021 at 4:52 pm

    @raven:

    More fodder for the anti-vaxxers. J&J doesn’t work, Pfizer doesn’t work, even if you are triple vaxxed the BJ “community” says get in the fucking bunker.

    Probably one of the best things that anti-vaxxers could do would be to read the Covid-related threads in Balloon Juice.

  42. 42.

    Matt McIrvin

    December 17, 2021 at 4:53 pm

    @raven: It really depends on what we think the vaccines are for. If they’re for stopping transmission, the existing vaccines do not work very well at that, against Omicron. They work some, but not a lot. They worked great with wild-type COVID and with Alpha, but it’s been downhill since then.

    If they’re for the originally stated goal of preventing severe, acute disease and death, they’re holding up, though perhaps only fully with boosters (for people who can get boosters).

    For preventing long COVID — that’s a big question mark.

    I suspect someone is going to buy Omicron-tailored booster shots sooner or later, whether or not it’s the US, and if that happens we will probably follow. Unlike Delta, most scientists seem to think that Omicron’s added mojo comes to some degree from its mutations giving it significant immune escape. If that’s the problem, a reformulated vaccine should help. The manufacturers say they can cook one up in a few months (probably start producing it instantly, but testing and getting it authorized and scaling up production and distributing it takes longer). Unfortunately the bulk of the wave may have already gone by by then.

  43. 43.

    Brachiator

    December 17, 2021 at 5:06 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    Surely you are aware the the current vaccines are much less effective against Omicron, right?

    Much less? Not true.Some snippets from BBC News stories:

    Recent studies of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine showed it produced far fewer neutralising antibodies against Omicron than against the original strain, but that this deficit could be reversed by a third, booster, jab.

    And another story:

    Even with a booster, protection against severe disease from Omicron may be around 80 to 85.9%, compared to around 97% for Delta – the other variant that is currently dominant in the UK.
    However, there are other parts of the immune system, such as T cells, that can fight Covid too. The modelling could not assess the impact of these.

    Also, the data is preliminary. The Omicron variant is fast moving and the response and analysis is developing quickly.

    And often the information is about boosters. I don’t know that there has been any deep tracking of people who have very recently received their first shot of the vaccine and who are then exposed to the Omicron variant.

    It makes no sense to make hard conclusions about the variant as new data keeps flowing in.

  44. 44.

    raven

    December 17, 2021 at 5:07 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: Yea, and with the trump fuckheads we can forget about stopping the transmission so that lead back to what are we going to do with our own lives. I’ve done everything I can but I just don’t have the gas to go back into lockdown.

  45. 45.

    WaterGirl

    December 17, 2021 at 5:17 pm

    @Brachiator:

    It makes no sense to make hard conclusions about the variant as new data keeps flowing in.

    I agree with that statement.  But Christmas is a fixed date so decisions have to be made with incompletel, inadequate and often conflicting information.

    That’s the source of my struggle.

  46. 46.

    Feathers

    December 17, 2021 at 5:25 pm

    @gvg: Thanks. I don’t have a car. Money is tight enough that I’d rather spend it on upgraded masks. The nearest CVS is a free Covid testing site, so if anything comes back, I’ll just go there. I have enough supplies to stay inside through Monday. Realizing that I’ve kind of been depression nesting and didn’t do my usual deep clean before shutting myself in for the winter. Focusing on getting rid of all the dust. Hopefully that will be the end of it.

  47. 47.

    Mary G

    December 17, 2021 at 5:26 pm

    @Feathers: I have been the same way. Some woman who looked almost exactly like Marjorie Taylor Greene ran up to me in my driveway and said I needed help (I said, no I do not). She kept maneuvering to pat my arm or my hand and trying to put her unmasked face up to mine and I was wheeling around trying to avoid her breathing on me and mostly did, but I kept dreaming she gave me Covid.

    So when I woke up this morning and two different oximeters used on both hands, then every finger came up with values between 73 and 80, I freaked out and called 911. And of course theirs read 100 and 97, BP 116/81, all else good. I felt like a fool. Evidently the type of oximeter I have reads low if your hands are cold and mine were because I didn’t turn on my new heat pump because was going to be warmer. Lesson learned there.

    My new roof was supposed to start yesterday but because of the big storm he’s handling emergencies only because mine doesn’t leak even it’s past its useful life.

    I did find the landscape designer I like who uses many succulents. Judging by their portfolio they are way out of my budget, but will do a consultation for $150 bucks.

    @Feathers:

  48. 48.

    sab

    December 17, 2021 at 5:46 pm

    @WaterGirl: My sister is coming back before Christmas from her last sabbatical, in Europe. No way in hell will she see my dad in his nursing home before next year. DeWine has relaxed most rules, but seems pretty strict on nursing homes. My brother in law  from China hasn’t seen his parents in China for almost three years. That’s really tough because they are a close knit family, and all the siblings are in North America. The parents are relatively safer in China, but the travel restrictions back and forth are severe and unpredictable.

    Taking Ponyo the dog tomorrow to trot around the nursing home pond. Dad has never seen her, and she is a goofy looking dog.

  49. 49.

    Matt McIrvin

    December 17, 2021 at 5:46 pm

    @raven: A lot of those unvaxxed Trumpsters are about to get a rude kick from the virus. Maybe less likely to be a fatal one if they’ve already gotten Delta, which a lot of them have, but they’re going to have a rougher time of it than vaccinated people, even if we all get it.

  50. 50.

    Brachiator

    December 17, 2021 at 5:48 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    I agree with that statement. But Christmas is a fixed date so decisions have to be made with incompletel, inadequate and often conflicting information.

    That’s the source of my struggle.

    I’ve done what I can to get vaccined up and boostered up. I wear masks and hang with others who have been cautious, etc. My main thing is to just try to avoid contact with anti vaxx deniers and similar boneheads.

    Good luck with whatever you decide.

  51. 51.

    sab

    December 17, 2021 at 5:54 pm

    @Mary G: I went to Costco this wek, all maskwd up, to buy food through the holidays. There was a Mazerati in the parking lot!

    Okay shopping until we got into the checkout line.  Unmasked creature my age kept crowding me to the point of actually bumping me with her cart. So I went to the front if the cart to get the six feet distance.

    When we went back to our cart and unloaded, lo and behold the unmasked creature behind me turned up and unloaded her groceries into the Mazerati.

  52. 52.

    Matt McIrvin

    December 17, 2021 at 5:56 pm

    @raven: I’ve been seeing some people celebrating about Omicron because they think it will convince authorities everywhere that stopping transmission is hopeless, so all the mitigation measures will go away.

  53. 53.

    Another Scott

    December 17, 2021 at 6:12 pm

    @raven:

    Here’s a 3-day-old preprint (28 page .pdf) from a group in Boston that reaches similar conclusions. I believe Fauci talked about it in a recent press briefing.

    Note that boosters still work on Omicron and note the other caveats:

    Limitations of the study

    Although previous studies that use pseudovirus neutralization to model the sensitivity of replicating SARS-CoV-2 to neutralizing antibodies have shown excellent correlations (Crawford et al., 2020; Ju et al., 2020; Moore et al., 2004; Pinto et al., 2020; Riepler et al., 2020; Wang et al., 2020; Yang et al., 2020), it is possible that the mutations in Omicron spike protein may cause Omicron pseudovirus to behave differently than previously tested variants. However, recent reports have demonstrated similar loss of neutralizing activity by vaccinee sera against intact Omicron coronavirus (Cele et al., 2021b). In addition, while we confirmed that ACE2 expression is required for infection of 293T cells, natural target cells in the respiratory tract may express alternative receptors or attachment factors that facilitate infection and are not adequately modeled in our system. In addition, our cohort was cross-sectional and not longitudinal, which limits our ability to estimate changes in neutralization titers over time across single individuals. Furthermore, we did not assess other antibody-mediated functions such as complement deposition, antibody-dependent cellular cytotoxicity, or antibody-dependent cellular phagocytosis, which may contribute to protection even in the absence of neutralizing antibodies. We did not assess the role of vaccine-elicited cellular immune responses mediated by T cells and NK cells, which are likely to play a key role in disease prevention for vaccine recipients.

    IOW, this is a study of the virus in a test-tube. This is not a study about severity of disease, response to treatment, etc.

    Omicron is something to be concerned about, and unvaccinated people need to get vaccinated NOW, and people eligible for booster should get them NOW, but the last sentence is something to keep in mind.

    [eta.] – Earliest reports said that we wouldn’t really have a good handle on things like transmissibility, how well the existing vaccines work, severity of disease with Omicron, etc., until the end of the month.  I think that timeline still holds.

    Hang in there, everyone.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  54. 54.

    WhatsMyNym

    December 17, 2021 at 6:36 pm

    If this hasn’t been talked about yet, some good news.

    South Africa delivered some positive news on the omicron coronavirus variant on Friday, reporting a much lower rate of hospital admissions and signs that the wave of infections may be peaking.

    Only 1.7% of identified COVID-19 cases were admitted to hospital in the second week of infections in the fourth wave, compared with 19% in the same week of the third delta-driven wave, South African Health Minister Joe Phaahla said at a news conference…

  55. 55.

    sab

    December 17, 2021 at 6:36 pm

    @sab: Not like the Iron Wall or Korea, but families who love each other are still separated. Health reasons, but still separated.

    The Republican stupid pandemic rules have completely fucked up the message which makes sense, because they are sociopaths who don’t even like their own families. Separatians. Just makes the anit-Democrats angry.

    Prolonging the pandemic might be good politics. Bad public policy but good public message. Are We Rs or are we Ds?

  56. 56.

    sab

    December 17, 2021 at 6:43 pm

    @sab: Who the fuck goes to the grocery with a Mazerati? Don’t you have a Civic or  GM in the driveway?

    Was she so rude because stuff has hit the fan in her life? Hoping, because she was obnoxious.

  57. 57.

    sab

    December 17, 2021 at 6:47 pm

    @WhatsMyNym: And nobody sent them vaccines at all!

  58. 58.

    Another Scott

    December 17, 2021 at 7:01 pm

    @sab: A Maserati is a glorified FIAT or Chrysler.  Manchin’s Maserati SUV is built modified Chrysler 300C chassis.

    Nissan and Mercedes have built cars and trucks together.

    Badge engineering is a thing, especially in autos, even when the brands are nominal competitors.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  59. 59.

    WaterGirl

    December 17, 2021 at 7:12 pm

    @Another Scott: Apparently the laws of physics trump holidays with fixed dates.

    Shorter:   laws of physics > Christmas

  60. 60.

    WhatsMyNym

    December 17, 2021 at 7:21 pm

    @sab: maybe this is why…

    In contrast to many other African countries, South Africa now has adequate supplies of vaccine doses, estimated at 19 million, but the number of people getting vaccinated has slowed dramatically. Just 12,500 shots were given Thursday, according to official figures, down from an average of about 120,000 per day in November.

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