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You are here: Home / Politics / domestic terrorists / Thursday Evening Open Thread: Seditious Conspiracy

Thursday Evening Open Thread: Seditious Conspiracy

by Anne Laurie|  January 13, 20226:04 pm| 193 Comments

This post is in: domestic terrorists, GOP Death Cult, Investigations Into Violent Extremist Attacks, Open Threads, Violent Insurrection at the Capitol

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BREAKING: The founder of the far-right Oath Keepers militia group and 10 others have been charged with seditious conspiracy in the Jan. 6 Capitol attack. https://t.co/lNnDm5APbs

— The Associated Press (@AP) January 13, 2022

Stewart Rhodes, the founder and leader of the far-right Oath Keepers militia group, and 10 other members or associates have been charged with seditious conspiracy in the violent attack on the U.S. Capitol, authorities said Thursday.

Despite hundreds of charges already brought in the year since pro-Trump rioters stormed the Capitol in an effort to stop the certification of President Joe Biden’s 2020 election victory, these were the first seditious conspiracy charges levied in connection with the attack on Jan. 6, 2021.

It marked a serious escalation in the largest investigation in the Justice Department’s history – more than 700 people have been arrested and charged with federal crimes – and highlighted the work that has gone into piecing together the most complicated cases. The charges rebut, in part, the growing chorus of Republican lawmakers who have publicly challenged the seriousness of the insurrection, arguing that since no one had been charged yet with sedition or treason, it could not have been so violent.

The indictment alleges Oath Keepers for weeks discussed trying to overturn the election results and preparing for a siege by purchasing weapons and setting up battle plans. They repeatedly wrote in chats about the prospect of violence and the need, as Rhodes allegedly wrote in one text, “to scare the s—-out of” Congress. And on Jan. 6, the indictment alleges, they entered the Capitol building with the large crowds of rioters who stormed past police barriers and smashed windows, injuring dozens of officers and sending lawmakers running…

The indictment against Rhodes alleges Oath Keepers formed two teams, or “stacks,” that entered the Capitol. The first stack split up inside the building to separately go after the House and Senate. The second stack confronted officers inside the Capitol Rotunda, the indictment said. Outside Washington, the indictment alleges, the Oath Keepers had stationed two “quick reaction forces” that had guns “in support of their plot to stop the lawful transfer of power.”

Rhodes, 56, of Granbury, Texas, is the highest-ranking member of an extremist group to be arrested in the deadly siege. He and Edward Vallejo, 63, of Phoenix, Arizona, were arrested on Thursday. The nine others were already facing criminal charges related to the attack…

And there you go — finally, a seditious conspiracy charge, because they decided they could prove the requisite intent.

— PoundPoundPoundHat (@Popehat) January 13, 2022


??Round of applause for Stewart Rhodes everybody ?? https://t.co/MJ5CrqPZIY pic.twitter.com/ithX8i7aRZ

— zeddy (@Zeddary) January 13, 2022

Links to the indictments can be found on this press release. https://t.co/S62MPCQYwh

— George Conway (@gtconway3d) January 13, 2022

moron labe https://t.co/OnzPPmHheD

— kilgore trout, cryptopolice chief (@KT_So_It_Goes) January 13, 2022

There is another are ten others…

Uhhh… no… I do not think that the Yale Law libertarian man is going to plea and flip. I think he's going to milk this for all its worth.

— Elie Mystal (@ElieNYC) January 13, 2022

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Previous Post: « She Chose Poorly
Next Post: Open Thread: Who Is Your Anger Translator? »

Reader Interactions

193Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 6:06 pm

    ?

    Thanks, AL.

  2. 2.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 6:09 pm

  3. 3.

    Alison Rose

    January 13, 2022 at 6:10 pm

    Tell ’em, “Boy, bye”

  4. 4.

    TM

    January 13, 2022 at 6:12 pm

    Marcy Wheeler zeroes in on the new charges of “conspiracy to prevent an office from discharging any duty,” and opines that it clearly describes Trump’s behavior towards Pence.  Marcy is a cautious analyst.  I am an oft-disappointed observer of the criminals of Trumpworld, and the various ways they’ve found to skate, but this time, maybe not.

    https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/01/13/the-first-seditious-conspiracy-charges-drop/

  5. 5.

    Paul W.

    January 13, 2022 at 6:14 pm

    This reminds me that the only thing that will stop the Republican creeping coupe from becoming a violent one, again, is negative consequences for their actions. So far they have had very few, and those that have received it are mid or low level and easily replaced with newer and crazier models.

    Trump and Trump direct affiliates need to feel the hurt before people will stop bowing to him and assuming he is just one more lucky die roll from being in power.

  6. 6.

    eclare

    January 13, 2022 at 6:15 pm

    Isn’t sedition twenty years in a federal prison, meaning no parole, no early release?

  7. 7.

    JPL

    January 13, 2022 at 6:19 pm

    Who’s next?  I assume Stone is not sleeping easy tonight, but personally I’d rather see Mark Meadows in cuffs.

  8. 8.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 6:20 pm

    @JPL:

    All of them, Katie!

  9. 9.

    dm

    January 13, 2022 at 6:21 pm

    Re: Kilgore Trout and “Moron Labe” — whenever I see Ted Cruz or MTG with a face mask reading “Molon Labe”, I think: “You spelled ‘Moron Label’ wrong.”

  10. 10.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    January 13, 2022 at 6:22 pm

    Always remember that Oathkeepers were founded because a black man had the audacity to get himself elected President of the United States. They were convinced that the government was going to take their guns. Us at the anti birther forum covered them extensively at the time. They are racist as well as being seditious. They are dangerous because they are former law enforcement and military.  It is very good news that they have been seen for what they are.

  11. 11.

    Old School

    January 13, 2022 at 6:23 pm

    Obligatory 

  12. 12.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 6:23 pm

    Mistal says he doesn’t think Rhodes will flip, and he may be right. When the conspiracy failed, though, Rhodes was quick to disown the Oathkeepers who entered the Capitol. He knew he had bought more trouble than he wanted. So Rhodes might not tough it out. Even if he doesn’t flip, prosecutors may be able to work around him to get the goods on Roger Stone. That would put them one step away from Trump.

  13. 13.

    Roger Moore

    January 13, 2022 at 6:26 pm

    @dm:

    IIRC, Ted Cruz avoids the “Molon Labe” version.  He prefers the Texas-specific version based on the flag with the Gonzales cannon on it. It’s actually a decent populist take, wrapping up the message in a way that will play especially well in his state.

  14. 14.

    Alison Rose

    January 13, 2022 at 6:30 pm

    @dm: I had no idea what Molon Labe was so I Googled and it and rolled my eyes so hard, I think I sprained something.

  15. 15.

    Roger Moore

    January 13, 2022 at 6:30 pm

    @Geminid:

    Even if he doesn’t flip, prosecutors may be able to work around him to get the goods on Roger Stone. That would put them one step away from Trump.

    I think the people around Trump may be difficult to turn.  They seem to have bought into the criminal code of silence.

  16. 16.

    Gin & Tonic

    January 13, 2022 at 6:31 pm

    @Geminid: Rhodes may not flip, but as I read it, DOJ has Signal messages to/from Rhodes, so *somebody* flipped.

  17. 17.

    debbie

    January 13, 2022 at 6:34 pm

    Reposting to make sure sab and anyone else who’s interested sees this:

    For anyone interested in the Ohio Supreme Court’s rejection of the state redistricting map, I’m providing a link for a local NPR station’s broadcast this morning about this issue. Among the participants was the Executive Director for Ohio’s League of Women Voters (a really sharp cookie). Among other things, she says the LWV filed a complaint about the Congressional redistricting map (separate from the state map), and she expects a ruling soon. I think it was sab who thought that door had been closed.

  18. 18.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 6:35 pm

    @JPL: I don’t think Meadows would have been “read in” to the conspiracy. He was a politician who had not been in Trump’s orbit long enough to be proven reliable. Roger Stone, on the other hand, had already done Trump’s dirty work connecting with the Russians in 2016. Stone also had ties with the militias, and is said to be initiated into the Proud Boys. I think he is more likely to have been trusted to liase betwen Trump and the insurrectionists.

  19. 19.

    debbie

    January 13, 2022 at 6:35 pm

    How long until TFG pronounces he’s never heard of this Rhodes guy?

  20. 20.

    Roger Moore

    January 13, 2022 at 6:36 pm

    @Alison Rose:

    It seems to me like a classic case of conservatives appropriating someone else’s struggle to make themselves feel heroic.  Wanting to pay less in taxes is equivalent to the American Revolution.  Having to provide proof of COVID vaccination to eat in a restaurant is like Jewish people being forced into concentration camps.  Not being allowed to buy as many guns as they feel like is just like fighting to the last man against the Persians.

  21. 21.

    Quinerly

    January 13, 2022 at 6:37 pm

    @Litlebritdifrnt: I was coming here to type on my tiny keyboard pretty much what you just said. He’s ex military too.

  22. 22.

    trollhattan

    January 13, 2022 at 6:38 pm

    This Rhodes dude looks like a B movie casting call reject, if Rent-a-Wreck remade themselves as a talent agency.

  23. 23.

    JPL

    January 13, 2022 at 6:39 pm

    @Geminid: Meadows did have a role into the filing of fake electors, so he might not be innocent.

  24. 24.

    trollhattan

    January 13, 2022 at 6:39 pm

    @Alison Rose: As written in Greek is sure looks like “Moran” to me. Which totally works.

  25. 25.

    JPL

    January 13, 2022 at 6:40 pm

    @debbie: If it gets close to him, he’ll blame Jared.

  26. 26.

    RandomMonster

    January 13, 2022 at 6:41 pm

    What could the Rhodes guy milk it for? I don’t quite get that statement.

  27. 27.

    TM

    January 13, 2022 at 6:41 pm

    @Roger Moore:
    ​
    With the conspiracy charges, you don’t need people around Trump to flip. You just need a conspirator who talked about the conspiracy with people around Trump. Pretty sure that Oath Keepers/Proud Boys were talking to Roger Stone, for example, who was talking to Rudy Giuliani and Steve Bannon and Alex Jones, etc.

  28. 28.

    trollhattan

    January 13, 2022 at 6:42 pm

    Huh, George Conway’s still alive. Not what I would have predicted after the spouse moved back in.

  29. 29.

    debbie

    January 13, 2022 at 6:42 pm

    @dm:

    ?

  30. 30.

    debbie

    January 13, 2022 at 6:44 pm

    @JPL:

    Has he blamed him for anything yet? I would have hated to miss that.

  31. 31.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 13, 2022 at 6:45 pm

    @RandomMonster: “Legal Defense Fund”? CPAC appearances? A book?

    I will admit, I have spite-bought more than one book for our side in my time

  32. 32.

    MomSense

    January 13, 2022 at 6:45 pm

    @Alison Rose:

    Middle fingers up

    hold them hands high

  33. 33.

    randy khan

    January 13, 2022 at 6:47 pm

    Someone complaining that nobody had been indicted for treason either has no idea what he or she is talking about or is acting in bad faith, since treason charges require working with an actual foreign enemy of the U.S. (that is, another country).

  34. 34.

    burnspbesq

    January 13, 2022 at 6:47 pm

    It’s time for DOJ to play Queen for a Day with these assholes. The first person who gives up the leaders of the conspiracy gets reduced charges in exchange for cooperation. The rest of them do 20–ideally in Florence.

  35. 35.

    zhena gogolia

    January 13, 2022 at 6:48 pm

    So maybe Merrick Garland knows what he’s doing? Or is that crazy talk?

  36. 36.

    MomSense

    January 13, 2022 at 6:49 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    The phone company.  People don’t realize your phone records do not belong to you.  Smith v. Maryland settled this in 1979.

  37. 37.

    RandomMonster

    January 13, 2022 at 6:49 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Of course, wingnut welfare. I should’ve thought of that.

  38. 38.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 6:50 pm

    @zhena gogolia:

    Garland is going to arrest Trump, which will prevent him from being the GOP nominee and take away out best chance at Biden winning reelection. #ComingSoonToTwitter

  39. 39.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 6:51 pm

    @MomSense:

    Metadata!

     

    Actually, I don’t think the phone company would have Signal messages.  Those are encrypted by the app.

  40. 40.

    Quinerly

    January 13, 2022 at 6:51 pm

    Buried in the CNN piece:

    “All I see Trump doing is complaining. I see no intent by him to do anything,” Rhodes allegedly wrote. “So the patriots are taking it into their own hands. They’ve had enough,” he allegedly said on Signal at 1:38 p.m. that day, shortly after the siege had begun.

  41. 41.

    WaterGirl

    January 13, 2022 at 6:51 pm

    Reminder:  Four Directions zoom is this evening at 7:30 blog time.  Send me email if you want the link.

  42. 42.

    Gin & Tonic

    January 13, 2022 at 6:51 pm

    @MomSense: Signal is encrypted. The phone company couldn’t give anything. Even if it weren’t, the phone company can’t give contents – just call detail records (who called whom and when.)

  43. 43.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 6:51 pm

    @Roger Moore: Stone is a freak, and may be as unbreakable now as he was when targeted by the Mueller investigation. He seems to have financial problems now, and that could change his thinking. Stone also does not have the likely prospect of a pardon like he did before.

    Are there others who can connect Trump to the Insurrectionists? Trump is a career criminal, and learned early on to use as few people as possible to do his dirty work. It seems like there was a certain amount of improvisation in this conspiracy, though, and it may have involved more people than ideal, and less trustworthy ones. At this point, I really wouldn’t be surprised at anything that comes out.

  44. 44.

    Alison Rose

    January 13, 2022 at 6:53 pm

    @Roger Moore: They want to be oppressed so badly. I’m sure they could find a wonderful sex worker who would treat them like shit for a reasonable price.

  45. 45.

    TheOtherHank

    January 13, 2022 at 6:53 pm

    My favorite thing about everyone sporting the Molon Labe merch, is that after the Spartans said it, the Persians did, in fact, come and take them

  46. 46.

    Alison Rose

    January 13, 2022 at 6:53 pm

    @MomSense: I was singing it the moment I saw the news!

  47. 47.

    John Revolta

    January 13, 2022 at 6:55 pm

    Eyepatch Guy doesn’t have to flip. They indicted ten more of these assholes as well; and only the first ones to talk will get the deals…………………….

  48. 48.

    MomSense

    January 13, 2022 at 6:55 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    They can.  Happened to me during the reign of C+Augustus. When it happened to me it was extra legal, but the DOJ, any prosecutor, can get phone records.

  49. 49.

    MomSense

    January 13, 2022 at 6:57 pm

    @Alison Rose:

    I listen to and watch Lemonade whenever I need that energy and today’s news is definitely one of those times.

  50. 50.

    Gin & Tonic

    January 13, 2022 at 6:58 pm

    @MomSense: Are you saying they revealed the contents of your SMS messages without a valid warrant?

  51. 51.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 7:00 pm

    @Geminid:

    I think Elie doesn’t have clue fucking one about these people and how they operate.

    I mean, what? You seriously think the loudmouth Libertarian isn’t gonna throw EEEEEERRRRRRRYYYBODY under the bus to stay out of jail?

    Ehheh. Eh hehheheheheheHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA etc, etc.

  52. 52.

    RandomMonster

    January 13, 2022 at 7:00 pm

    @Geminid: Stone also does not have the likely prospect of a pardon like he did before.

    Like Bannon, he’ll try to hold out to see if Trump is back in ‘24.

  53. 53.

    H.E.Wolf

    January 13, 2022 at 7:08 pm

    Per the http://www.justice.gov report (link embedded in the post), Stewart’s actual first name is Elmer.

    Elmer the Third.

    How fitting.

  54. 54.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 7:11 pm

    @H.E.Wolf:

    Any of them have the middle name Wayne?

  55. 55.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 7:13 pm

     

     

    @TheOtherHank: Yeah. Leonidas was actually a royal dumbass. Idiot legit though 300 men were gonna hold off the largest Empire on earth. He really, truly believed it.

    The guy who ran the most grimly oppressive eugenics-based slave state in all of Greece, practically the North Korea of the ancient world, failed to account for turncoats or local sympathizers.

    The guy whose throne sat on a mountain of Helots failed to account for the possibility someone might hate his guts more than they hated the Persians.

    And the absolute diamond-studded crown of hilarity on the whole situation?

    It was those soft, effeminate democrats in Athens who saved all of Hellas.

    But they didn’t have some dipshit with masculinity issues make a bitchin’ comic book/movie about them, so…

     

    I really wonder what it’s like to live in a country where the history teachers aren’t all named Coach.

  56. 56.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 7:14 pm

    @JPL: Meadows certainly is not innocent as far as that side of the conspiracy. I was thinking more of the “hard coup” of the assault on the Capitol. Meadows may not have been privy to that part of the plan, although he might have had second hand knowledge. He would be like Senator Tuberville. Tuberville was present at the Trump Hotel the night before, and probably knew the role he was expected to play in the Senate proceedings. But Tuberville being dumber than a post, I doubt he was given information about the upcoming violence. I think that was more closely held.

  57. 57.

    NotMax

    January 13, 2022 at 7:16 pm

    Tick effin’ tock.

  58. 58.

    Gravenstone

    January 13, 2022 at 7:16 pm

    @Quinerly: “All I see Trump doing is complaining. I see no intent by him to do anything,”

    Was this like his first time seeing Trump’s schtick? All that fucker has ever done is piss and moan. When he wasn’t busy lying, cheating and stealing.

  59. 59.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 7:18 pm

    @Geminid:

    Too dumb for the Trump crew is a pretty low place to be.

  60. 60.

    Tony Jay

    January 13, 2022 at 7:18 pm

    @Subsole:

    I really wonder what it’s like to live in a country where the history teachers aren’t all named Coach.

    Oh now, that tickled me. I may have to steal that line for use at some point because it’s got genuine quality.

  61. 61.

    polyorchnid octopunch

    January 13, 2022 at 7:18 pm

    @Subsole: The Democrats should adopt “marathon” as a code word meaning exactly this. The shopkeepers and goat herders that Leonidas derided beat back the Persians in the battle of Marathon. “Governance is not a token gesture, it is a marathon, and we are here to the finish.”

  62. 62.

    Roger Moore

    January 13, 2022 at 7:19 pm

    @Alison Rose:

    They want to be oppressed so badly.

    I don’t think they actually want to be oppressed.  They want an excuse to attack, and they see oppression as a valid excuse.

  63. 63.

    MomSense

    January 13, 2022 at 7:19 pm

    • @Gin & Tonic:

    Yes. It was widely reported at the time.  They were surveilling us because we were part of a peace and Justice group organizing and protesting against the Iraq War.

  64. 64.

    Quinerly

    January 13, 2022 at 7:21 pm

    @Gravenstone: I would like to be a fly on the wall when Trump reads/hears that.

  65. 65.

    Mike in NC

    January 13, 2022 at 7:28 pm

    The videos showing the Oath Breakers streaming into the Capitol wearing tactical gear were disturbing. I saw where they were going to call in “Quick Reaction Forces” to rush guns into DC had they succeeded in their treason.

  66. 66.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 7:28 pm

    @Gravenstone: One factor that may influence the insurrectionists’ loyalty to Trump is that he raised tens of millions of dollars after the election to fight “the Steal,” and is sitting on that money like some bloated dragon. People are stuck in jail and going to prison for Trump and he won’t spend a dime to defend them. Some of these folks are as simple minded and loyal as that Rally Runner weirdo, but others may want revenge on the man who got them in this mess.

  67. 67.

    RobertB

    January 13, 2022 at 7:30 pm

    @polyorchnid octopunch: Marathon was in the invasion prior, under Darius.  Athenians fought that one without Spartan help; yet another festival in the way I think.  The two battles that halted Xerxes’ invasion were Salamis (naval) and Platea (land).

  68. 68.

    mrmoshpotato

    January 13, 2022 at 7:30 pm

    Faces. Caved in, not stirred.

  69. 69.

    Other MJS

    January 13, 2022 at 7:32 pm

    @dm:

    “You spelled ‘Moron Label’ wrong.”

    Can we call the gun-humpers the “Moron Lobby”?

  70. 70.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 13, 2022 at 7:34 pm

    @Subsole:

    I really wonder what it’s like to live in a country where the history teachers aren’t all named Coach.

    You…. raaaaang?

    Anna Yonas @annayonas
    Virginia’s proposed social studies reform legislation is terrible for myriad reasons, but the assertion that the Lincoln-Douglas debates were between Lincoln and Frederick Douglass is a new level of historical inaccuracy.

    We can report that, once again, Frederick Douglass is someone who is getting recognized more and more.

  71. 71.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 7:37 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Elections have consequences.

    The founding documents of the United States, including the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution, the Federalist Papers, including Essays 10 and 51, excerpts from Alexis de Tocqueville’s Democracy in America, the first debate between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, and the writings of the Founding Fathers of the United States.

  72. 72.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 7:46 pm

    @RobertB: Attica was still a rural, agriculture based state at the time of the Persian wars. It changed rapidly afterwards, when Themistocles built up it’s naval power, and Pericles ended the dominance of wealthy land owners by cutting the Areapagetica, their Senate, down to size. It was a very different state just two generations after Platea.

  73. 73.

    Quinerly

    January 13, 2022 at 7:47 pm

    @Baud: this country is in a race to the bottom.

  74. 74.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 7:47 pm

    @Geminid:

    We need a Pericles.

  75. 75.

    NotMax

    January 13, 2022 at 7:49 pm

    Liz gets serious.

    Queen Elizabeth II has removed all of Prince Andrew’s military titles and royal patronages days after it emerged that her son, who is also known as the Duke of York, will face a civil trial in New York after his motion to dismiss Virginia Giuffre’s sexual assault case was thrown out by a judge.

    A statement from Buckingham Palace, released Thursday evening U.K. time, reads: “With The Queen’s approval and agreement, The Duke of York’s military affiliations and Royal patronages have been returned to the Queen. The Duke of York will continue not to undertake any public duties and is defending this case as a private citizen.”
    [snip]
    The Queen’s unprecedented intervention, which comes in the year of her jubilee, celebrating 70 years on the throne, follows Wednesday’s news that a New York judge had thrown out Prince Andrew’s motion to dismiss Giuffre’s civil case. Source

  76. 76.

    Warblewarble

    January 13, 2022 at 7:49 pm

    Frederick Douglas is getting more and more recognized. Just don`t mention he was bla

  77. 77.

    delk

    January 13, 2022 at 7:50 pm

    Now I have “Decatur or, Round of Applause for Your Stepmother “ stuck in my head.

  78. 78.

    Roger Moore

    January 13, 2022 at 7:51 pm

    @Subsole:

    Leonidas was actually a royal dumbass. Idiot legit though 300 men were gonna hold off the largest Empire on earth. He really, truly believed it.

    I think you’re being unfair to Leonidas, for a few reasons.  For one, it was way more than 300 troops.  There were 300 full Spartan citizens, but each of them was supported by less well armed and armored helots.  Also, the Spartans had allies, so there were something like 5000 hoplites at the battle plus auxiliaries.  The 300 Spartans who died to the last man in the battle were serving as a rear guard after their position had been turned, which successfully allowed most of the rest of the Greek forces to escape.

    For another thing, the force was never intended to stop the Persians cold.  It was intended to slow them down enough for the Greeks to rally their forces.  In particular, the Spartan ephors had forbidden the main army from leaving right away, so Leonidas was only able to take his personal bodyguard.  The basic strategy of slowing the enemy down by occupying a choke-point that would allow a small number of more heavily armed troops to hold out for an extended period was basically reasonable.  It wasn’t as successful as they hoped, but it wasn’t a crazy idea.

    And yes, the Greeks knew there was an alternative way around the position, and they sent troops to guard it.  Those troops did their job badly, and the Greek position might have held for considerably longer and been left with less loss of life had they succeeded at holding their position.

  79. 79.

    Kalakal

    January 13, 2022 at 7:51 pm

    @Subsole: A fun thing about Thermopylae is the 300 was more like 3,000 if you count the rest of the Greeks at the final battle, doesn’t look so good in a comic though. The really best bit is if you go there, your first thought is “Why didn’t the Persians just walk round those suicidal hardcases?” Thanks to sedimentation the pass is now over 5 miles wide.

    I see Robert got there before me, there is also some evidence that a supporting seaborne force supplied by other Greek forces was supposed to reinforce the seaward flank. The actual battle site was only a 100 yards wide. With an initial force of maybe 7000 it wasn’t a boneheaded plan

  80. 80.

    Cacti

    January 13, 2022 at 7:53 pm

    @Baud: Vote for the stupids, get a stupid result.

  81. 81.

    Quinerly

    January 13, 2022 at 7:54 pm

    On Nov. 5, 2020, the indictment says, Rhodes created a group chat on encrypted messaging app Signal titled “Leadership intel sharing secured.”

    “We aren’t getting through this without a civil war,” Rhodes purportedly wrote to the chat.

    Two days later, when major news networks called the election for Biden, Rhodes had a plan. Prosecutors said that it was based on the reaction to Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic.

    “We must now do what the people of Serbia did when Milosevic stole their election,” Rhodes allegedly wrote. “Refuse to accept it and march en-masse on the nation’s Capitol.”

  82. 82.

    raven

    January 13, 2022 at 7:55 pm

    @Kalakal:
    GO TELL THE SPARTANS
     

    Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here, obedient to their laws, we lie.”

  83. 83.

    Cacti

    January 13, 2022 at 7:57 pm

    @Kalakal: Then there’s the likelihood that the size of the Persian army was overstated by at least a factor of 10.

  84. 84.

    RaflW

    January 13, 2022 at 8:05 pm

    @Quinerly: If one is approvingly referencing Milošević, one is definitely a) aware of the company you keep and b) contemplating war or at least war crimes.

    The Oathkeepers need to be completely broken down, and any remnants not charge be closely tracked by anti-extremism specialists in law enforcement.

  85. 85.

    Jeffro

    January 13, 2022 at 8:05 pm

    @dm:

    @Alison Rose:

    I saw a version once that translated to, um, “dumb…wussies”

    “moron labe” is good, though, gets the point across without going too far.

  86. 86.

    Frank Wilhoit

    January 13, 2022 at 8:06 pm

    @Alison Rose: Better your eyes than your stomach.

  87. 87.

    Jeffro

    January 13, 2022 at 8:06 pm

    @Roger Moore: conservatives appropriating someone else’s struggle to make themselves feel heroic.  Wanting to pay less in taxes is equivalent to the American Revolution.  Having to provide proof of COVID vaccination to eat in a restaurant is like Jewish people being forced into concentration camps.  Not being allowed to buy as many guns as they feel like is just like fighting to the last man against the Persians.

    The examples are endless.

    The topic is a good one for an op-ed!

    Endless grievance, supported by ridiculously false comparisons.  That’s all they got.

  88. 88.

    Kalakal

    January 13, 2022 at 8:07 pm

    @Cacti: Yep, Herodotus wasn’t known as the father of lies for nothing. The opposing forces at Platea are estimated to have been roughly equal.

  89. 89.

    Steeplejack

    January 13, 2022 at 8:08 pm

    @RaflW:

    That quote is not pro-Milošević. Quite the opposite.

  90. 90.

    Brachiator

    January 13, 2022 at 8:08 pm

    @Baud:

    The founding documents of the United States, including the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution, the Federalist Papers, including Essays 10 and 51, excerpts from Alexis de Tocqueville’s Democracy in America, the first debate between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, and the writings of the Founding Fathers of the United States.

    Jeez! Everybody knows that it was Abraham Lincoln and Buster Douglas. Fifteen rounds.

  91. 91.

    Gin & Tonic

    January 13, 2022 at 8:08 pm

    @Quinerly: Might just be me, but when I think of Trump and the Oath Keepers I view *them* as analogous to Milošević. They certainly aren’t Koštunica or the DOS.

  92. 92.

    Roger Moore

    January 13, 2022 at 8:08 pm

    @RobertB:

    Marathon was in the invasion prior, under Darius. Athenians fought that one without Spartan help; yet another festival in the way I think. The two battles that halted Xerxes’ invasion were Salamis (naval) and Platea (land).

    This is correct.  Marathon was the result of what was basically a Persian punitive expedition against Athens for helping Greek cities in Asia minor rebel.  The Persians weren’t able to follow up their defeat immediately, but when they were able they sent a much larger force with the goal of subjugating Greece completely.

    The Spartans (and Phocians, Thespians, etc.) fought at Thermopylae to slow the Persians down and give the rest of the Greeks time to get their forces together.  They weren’t completely successful, but the Peleponesian Greeks were able to block the isthmus of Corinth, which blocked the Persian army from advancing any further.  The Greeks navy, led by the Athenians, then ended the major threat of the invasion by destroying the Persian navy at Salamis.  That prevented the Persians from bypassing the isthmus and forced the majority of the Persian army to retreat due to supply problems.  The Persians left their best forces behind to keep hold of the territory they had occupied, but the Greeks, led by the Spartans and Athenians, crushed them at Platea, freeing the occupied area.

  93. 93.

    Jeffro

    January 13, 2022 at 8:09 pm

    @randy khan:Someone complaining that nobody had been indicted for treason either has no idea what he or she is talking about or is acting in bad faith, since treason charges require working with an actual foreign enemy of the U.S. (that is, another country).

    Another good topic for an op-ed:

    “…treason is what trumpov was doing selling us out to Russia, a hostile foreign power…sedition is what trumpov’s followers were doing by trying to keep trumpov in power via a coup…”

  94. 94.

    David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch

    January 13, 2022 at 8:09 pm

    The Spartan were paper tigers. They were crushed by Ohio St 56-7.

  95. 95.

    Gin & Tonic

    January 13, 2022 at 8:11 pm

    @RaflW: They are not approvingly referencing him, they are, I suppose, approvingly referencing the massive protests from the September 2000 election until the overthrow of Milošević two or so weeks later.

  96. 96.

    topclimber

    January 13, 2022 at 8:12 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: In case you missed it from the previous thread:

    I understand now that you not only want to put words in my mouth, but something else.

  97. 97.

    Quinerly

    January 13, 2022 at 8:12 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: yep.

  98. 98.

    Frank Wilhoit

    January 13, 2022 at 8:13 pm

    @debbie: I presume there is already a bill in the General Assembly to strip the SC of its powers of judicial review.  I further presume that the state rep who introduced it referred, more than once, to “unelected judges”.

    …and anyhow, does anyone remember how the school-funding kerfuffle played out?

  99. 99.

    Honus

    January 13, 2022 at 8:13 pm

    @TheOtherHank: that’s what I always think when I see that. Also, the three hundred got wiped out.  And Sherman predicted exactly what would happen to the confederacy before the war started.  These people have a thing for losers.

  100. 100.

    Kalakal

    January 13, 2022 at 8:15 pm

    @raven: Leonidas certainly lived up to the maxim “Come back with your shield or on it”.

  101. 101.

    debbie

    January 13, 2022 at 8:15 pm

    @David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch:

    ?

  102. 102.

    topclimber

    January 13, 2022 at 8:15 pm

    @Roger Moore: ​”No taxation without no taxation!”

  103. 103.

    Buckeye

    January 13, 2022 at 8:16 pm

    @Quinerly: ​

    I saw the Milosevic reference earlier and thought that Elmer Stewart Rhodes III would have definitely been supporting Milosevic. Or at least his aims and tactics.

  104. 104.

    debbie

    January 13, 2022 at 8:16 pm

    @Frank Wilhoit:

    It’s still playing out.

  105. 105.

    Kalakal

    January 13, 2022 at 8:17 pm

    @Honus:

    These people have a thing for losers.

    Yeah, they really do

  106. 106.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 8:19 pm

    @Kalakal: The Persians did walk, or hike, around the Spartan position at Thermopylai. Some goat herds showed them a path through the mountains, and a force was able to attack the Spartans from the rear and end the battle. The Persian losses were still daunting to an army that until then had conquered without bloodshed. When the Spartans, Athenians (and Thespians) attacked them later at Platea, the Persians broke.

    The assault on the Alamo resembled Thermopylai in that even though the defenders were wiped out, the casualties they inflicted took the temper out of the Mexican army, and set up the Texican victory at San Jacinto.

    Between Thermopylai and the Alamo in time, the Swiss did something similar, to an invading army from Burgundy. Several hundred Swiss soldiers did not wait for the rest of their countrymen to gather, but rushed the invading army. The small Swiss force was wiped out, but the battered Burgundians decided they’d had enough and retreated before the rest of the Swiss came up.

    But I think I have flouted my knowledge of military history enough.

  107. 107.

    sab

    January 13, 2022 at 8:22 pm

    @Frank Wilhoit: Badly. Kicked down the road forever ( i.e. ignored.) All the rubes thought they were voting to defund urban schools of doubtful ethnicity, but actually the schools they were defunding were rural schools in counties along the Ohio River.

    I was shocked by rural British education as described by Fionna Hill, but Appalachian Ohio is nearly as bad.

    Rolphe has four different cases over the decades. Same issue, can kicked down the road every time

    ETA Every case won, but then ignored by the legislature.

  108. 108.

    Brachiator

    January 13, 2022 at 8:22 pm

    @Geminid:

    When the Spartans, Athenians (and Thespians) attacked them later at Platea, the Persians broke.

    I understand that the Thespians, in particular, put on quite a show.

  109. 109.

    mrmoshpotato

    January 13, 2022 at 8:23 pm

    @Brachiator: Jeez! Everybody knows that it was Abraham Lincoln and Buster Douglas. Fifteen rounds.

    No.  It was a rap battle between Honest Abe and Busta Rhymes.

  110. 110.

    scav

    January 13, 2022 at 8:26 pm

    @NotMax: Busy day.  Because there’s accumulating supporting evidence that it was really really really hard to distinguish working at N° 10 and 24/7 clubbing. Two more Downing Street parties, these two rather inopportunely right before Phillip’s funeral, handily equipped with socially isolating widow with global media coverage.  No fear though, Sir Flobalob had already decamped to his weekend digs, so he wasn’t personally trying to figure out what all the loud music and alcohol runs were about.

  111. 111.

    sab

    January 13, 2022 at 8:26 pm

    @debbie: responded to your mention of me last thread. Congress map open. Not so awful but still bad. I still am hopeful, even if we lose but I think we may win. That map was much less awful than the defeated maps.

  112. 112.

    sab

    January 13, 2022 at 8:30 pm

    I always knew Ancient Greece was determinative of modern American politics.

    // I love this blog and I will keep my mind open.

  113. 113.

    sab

    January 13, 2022 at 8:40 pm

    Last year computer, new printer, new payroll package since Office Max went belly up.

    Spent the better part of two days rounding up the right components and software to do payroll for two fucking W-2s. And then figuring out the software. I have been doing this for 35 years and every year it gets harder which makes no sense. Twenty year old quantoids gumming up the works reinventing the wheel.

    I bought a program, loaded it and figured it out, printed it on their software and forms and stuff didn’t line up into the boxes correctly.  They tried to blame my printer. Too fucking bad. Social Security, IRS and all the state and local governments can just fucking figure out which number went to which box.

    Should have taken fifteen minutes. Always used to.

  114. 114.

    topclimber

    January 13, 2022 at 8:42 pm

    @Subsole: ​Nice to find something we agree on.

  115. 115.

    Kevin

    January 13, 2022 at 8:44 pm

    Finally some good news and a few well publicized perp walks. Keep ‘em coming.

  116. 116.

    Benw

    January 13, 2022 at 8:45 pm

    Dude, when it seems like more than half of the dishes in your sink are coffee mugs and take out trays, you might not win the best parent. Seriously, sans ashtray and empty liquor bottles my kitchen looks like a 50’s gumshoe took care of my kids this week.

  117. 117.

    topclimber

    January 13, 2022 at 8:46 pm

    @Geminid: Did the Texicans really bloody the Mexicans at the Alamo? Or is that just Disney history?

  118. 118.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 8:50 pm

    @sab: I think the Ohio Supreme Court heard arguments over the challenge to the Congressional map just last week, some time after the case concerning the state legislative districts was considered. Time is important here, and the Court should deliver it’s decision in the second case soon, maybe even tomorrow. It would seem that the same majority will send the Congressional map back to the redistricting commission, but this is not certain.

  119. 119.

    Bill Arnold

    January 13, 2022 at 8:50 pm

    @JPL:

    I assume Stone is not sleeping easy tonight, but personally I’d rather see Mark Meadows in cuffs.

    Mr. Roger Stone will do almost anything to stay out of prison. That could make it interesting. But both would be fine.
    (I’m fairly sure that there are a few things he won’t talk about for reasons other than … US law enforcement.)

  120. 120.

    debbie

    January 13, 2022 at 8:51 pm

    @sab:

    Okay, glad you saw it. I’m frighteningly close to feeling optimistic.

  121. 121.

    sab

    January 13, 2022 at 8:54 pm

    @debbie: Scary, isn’t it?

  122. 122.

    Bill Arnold

    January 13, 2022 at 8:55 pm

    @Baud:

    Actually, I don’t think the phone company would have Signal messages. Those are encrypted by the app.

    Signal is roughly as secure as the physical security of the union of all the endpoints. Seize a phone and crack it, and any saved messages (the default) are cleartext. Cooperating witness, same. (And phone owners can always screencap just to be sure.)

  123. 123.

    patrick II

    January 13, 2022 at 8:55 pm

    @Baud:

    It has only recently occurred to me why Cheney is working so hard to bring Trump down.  If Trump is re-elected in ’24 he will be dictator for life, and with the Presidential level of medical care, that could be a long, if increasingly limited capacity life.  She will never get to be the first woman president then.

  124. 124.

    topclimber

    January 13, 2022 at 9:00 pm

    @Roger Moore: ​I prefer to believe that the goatherd who revealed the trail to the Spartan position was mindful of what f—ing beasts the Spartans were to their helot slaves.

    Which is to say: it ain’t just about the tactics.

    Full disclosure: big fan of the Spartans at Thermopylae as a youngin’ until later learning their legendary warrior caste was built on an uber-brutal regime. Sort of like the cosplaying cavaliers of Dixie, only I never admired them at all. I never could reconcile their defense of Southern womanhood with their propensity to pork every black woman they could. Not for lustorious reasons, Lordy No!, but just to improve the breeding stock.

  125. 125.

    Kalakal

    January 13, 2022 at 9:00 pm

    @Geminid: That’s true. I was (jokingly) referring not to the path inland of Thermopylae the Persians used but that the Hot Gates themselves are no longer a narrow pass due to geographical changes. The coastlines now about 5 miles further away. If the battle was fought now the Persians could have just strolled along the beach collecting seashells and yelling at Leonidas that his father smelt of elderberries .  There’s some fun weirdies in geographical change, Sluys (now about 10 miles

    inland) was the site of a major naval battle,

  126. 126.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 9:01 pm

    @topclimber: I read that the Alamo’s defenders took a several assaults to defeat, and killed and wounded a lot of their attackers. But Wikipedia probably knows better than I do.

  127. 127.

    James E Powell

    January 13, 2022 at 9:04 pm

    Anybody want to talk about the supreme court working for the Republican congressional elections? Do we really have to put up with this bullshit?

  128. 128.

    Felanius Kootea

    January 13, 2022 at 9:05 pm

    @zhena gogolia: Indeed, perhaps he does.  Who would have thought, after Oklahoma City?

  129. 129.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 13, 2022 at 9:06 pm

    This looks like good news (thread)

    Matthew Yglesias @mattyglesias
    Biden is nominating Sarah Bloom Raskin, Lisa Cook, and Philip Jefferson to the three vacancies on the Federal Reserve Board of Governors.

    Raskin is a former Fed Governor, former Deputy Treasury Secretary, married to Rep. Jamie Raskin, and well-liked by financial regulation hawks.

  130. 130.

    SiubhanDuinne

    January 13, 2022 at 9:06 pm

    Just got off the 4D zoom call, so am well behind on the thread and don’t know whether this has been discussed. But Rachel just led with Justice Sotomayor’s incredible dissent on the SCOTUS OSHA ruling today. She is so good (SS, I mean, although of course I also like RM).

    Do read it if you can. I’ll see if I can find a link.

  131. 131.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 9:09 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    SS is very good, but it was a joint dissent by the three libs.

  132. 132.

    SiubhanDuinne

    January 13, 2022 at 9:11 pm

    @Baud:

    Yes, but I was under the impression that she wrote it. Not trying to take anything at all away from Kagan or Breyer.

  133. 133.

    lowtechcyclist

    January 13, 2022 at 9:12 pm

    @Baud: ​ Any of them have the middle name Wayne?

    Ah yes, “the classic middle name” as Chuck Shepherd called it.

    Certainly wouldn’t surprise me if some of them did.

  134. 134.

    Villago Delenda Est

    January 13, 2022 at 9:14 pm

    Vile Faux Noise fuckstick Jonathan Turley sez that these indictments kinda let TFG off the hook.  Whistling past the graveyard, this fascist motherfucker is.

  135. 135.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 9:15 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    I don’t know.  Usually, a dissent names an author and the other justices that join the author. This one names three joint authors.  Maybe there’s more info on authorship out there than what’s on the face of the dissent.

  136. 136.

    West of the Rockies

    January 13, 2022 at 9:15 pm

    @Warblewarble:

    Is he one of those bla people Santorum spoke of?

  137. 137.

    SiubhanDuinne

    January 13, 2022 at 9:17 pm

    @Baud:

    Shrug emoji. I dunno, I’m just going by Rachel.

    ETA: The point is, no matter who wrote it, it is a solid, strong statement of dissent.

  138. 138.

    Kalakal

    January 13, 2022 at 9:18 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: How the hell did he come to that conclusion? All they show is that the Garland is moving up the food chain, says nothing about how high he’s going to go. It’s very encouraging news but not for our home grown fascists

  139. 139.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 9:18 pm

    @topclimber: The Spartans formally declared war on their Helots every year. That made it lawful for a Spartan citizen to kill a Helot if he thought it neccessary.

  140. 140.

    Baud

    January 13, 2022 at 9:19 pm

    @Kalakal:

    How the hell did he come to that conclusion?

     
    As VDE explained

    Vile Faux Noise fuckstick

    It’s a term of employment.

  141. 141.

    SiubhanDuinne

    January 13, 2022 at 9:24 pm

    @Brachiator:

    I understand that the Thespians, in particular, put on quite a show.

    There’s no business like show business.

  142. 142.

    Felanius Kootea

    January 13, 2022 at 9:24 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Wow!  I actually know Lisa Cook.

  143. 143.

    Gravenstone

    January 13, 2022 at 9:25 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: If the indictments explicitly named Trump, Turley would whine about that too. Fuck ’em.

  144. 144.

    lowtechcyclist

    January 13, 2022 at 9:26 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: We can report that, once again, Frederick Douglass is someone who is getting recognized more and more.

    Oh. My. Fucking. God.

  145. 145.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 9:27 pm

    @patrick II: I don’t think Liz Cheney expects she’ll ever be President. She may have at one time, but not now. If Cheney loses her primary this year, she may never even hold elective office again.

    Cheney does hate Donald Trump’s guts, though.

  146. 146.

    Kalakal

    January 13, 2022 at 9:27 pm

    @Baud: Silly me. I should have realised, he’s just spouting shit for the marks. As you say it’s written into all Faux contracts

  147. 147.

    RaflW

    January 13, 2022 at 9:28 pm

    @patrick II: But she’s gonna be the Unity ticket VP in ’24! I read all about it in the paper and everything.

  148. 148.

    Kirk Spencer

    January 13, 2022 at 9:32 pm

    @topclimber: Geminid gives a good answer (of course) but the short answer is “it depends”.

    More Mexicans than defenders died. How many was that? accounts vary, but there’s a general consensus among non-Texan historians that 400-600 Mexicans died vs the approximately 200 Texians defending. Which isn’t that great a difference given a defense of a (mediocre to poor) fortification.

    Texans will tell you the number was over a thousand and ‘probably’ closer to 1600 Mexicans, by the way.

    What makes it a lot more amusing/sad is that a lot of and probably the majority of deaths among the Mexicans were self-inflicted. Example the greatest: the first assault, done three times, was three groups in column formation as opposed to line. Experienced and trained soldiers know only the front rank (or two, or if you’re some of the elites three ranks) shoots. If however your assaulting columns are a group of recruits conscripted and trained en route to the battle, everyone shoots and the front ranks get thin. Just for example.

    I’ve seen everything from 20% to 80% as an estimate of how many Mexican casualties were due to ‘friendly fire’ through the engagement.

    The delay was also only sort real. On the one hand the army stopped to besiege the Alamo for 13 days. On the other hand Santa Ana had told his superiors he would take San Antonio by the 2d of March, and he took it on the 6th. Still, it gave Texas 13 days to form a relief force that turned around then turned into a fingerpointing session about who was to blame for it turning around. They were still around long enough that Houston grabbed most of them for his army.

    The battle itself was basically a mix of training and vanity. Logistically and practically Santa Ana could have pretty much bypassed the group, or even left one of the three companies that did the assault to maintain the seige. But Santa Ana chose to use it as a training exercise for his recruits before facing ‘real’ soldiers in the field. And then he decided to do the assault when it looked like the place was about to collapse because a battle is more stirring than a surrender — especially when you’ve pumped things up with a no-quarter declaration.

    Long-winded, I know, but it’s very much an eye of the beholder thing. And as much as I ridicule it, there is no doubt that it’s the key reason Houston was able to force and win a battle at San Jacinto.

  149. 149.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 9:32 pm

    @James E Powell: Supreme Court working for Republican Congressional elections? Please explain.

  150. 150.

    Villago Delenda Est

    January 13, 2022 at 9:33 pm

    @RaflW: Yeah, proposed by the guy who invented the perpetually mocked “Friedman Unit” of the deserting coward’s Great Mesopotamian Adventure.

  151. 151.

    sab

    January 13, 2022 at 9:34 pm

    @sab: Briefly tried to call for help. They put me on hold. Very weird. Pep talks with Shaquille O ‘Neal interspersed with Korean or Chinese sort of  classical music. I hung in for about five minutes. Thinking the whole time, so on about the fourth iteration of Shaq  into Korean music I figured out my problem.

  152. 152.

    persistentillusion

    January 13, 2022 at 9:34 pm

    @burnspbesq: Wooah, I’ve been through Florence, CO.  That’s a harsh destination to wish on even these asshats.

  153. 153.

    Josie

    January 13, 2022 at 9:37 pm

    @Geminid: In this instance I tend to think you are more correct than Wikipedia.

    On another topic, I saw in the Post article the interesting tidbit that Rhodes served as an aide to Libertarian Ron Paul after Yale Law.

  154. 154.

    Fair Economist

    January 13, 2022 at 9:41 pm

    @Cacti: Near certainty the Persian army was overstated. Herodotus seems to have listed the entire Persian army, including units like Indian border troops that almost certainly would not have been there.

  155. 155.

    sab

    January 13, 2022 at 9:43 pm

    @sab: My sister’s kids are half Chinese and they absolutely love Chinese classical music. Also western classical.

    I love western classical but I don’t understand Chinese. But these Ohio raised musical kids love it.

    ETA My sister would not recognize any music if it jumped on her head and tried to strangle her. Her mind follows my dad’s family.

  156. 156.

    Villago Delenda Est

    January 13, 2022 at 9:53 pm

    @Josie: Rhodes served as an aide to Libertarian Ron Paul after Yale Law.

    He is thus doubly-damned.

  157. 157.

    SiubhanDuinne

    January 13, 2022 at 9:54 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Anna Yonas @annayonas
    Virginia’s proposed social studies reform legislation is terrible for myriad reasons, but the assertion that the Lincoln-Douglas debates were between Lincoln and Frederick Douglass is a new level of historical inaccuracy.

    Unbefuckinglievable.

  158. 158.

    Villago Delenda Est

    January 13, 2022 at 9:54 pm

    @burnspbesq: That’s not the Florence with the Uffizi, I trust…

  159. 159.

    Josie

    January 13, 2022 at 9:57 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Lol. Exactly what I was thinking.

  160. 160.

    topclimber

    January 13, 2022 at 10:01 pm

    @Fair Economist: Hey, since economist is in your name, perhaps you know what’s behind a Biden tweet the other day that inflation is moderating? Or at least that numbers were better.

  161. 161.

    debbie

    January 13, 2022 at 10:05 pm

    @Geminid:

    Cheneys are vengeful creatures.

  162. 162.

    mrmoshpotato

    January 13, 2022 at 10:06 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: It would be funny if they had a small copy of the Uffizi in Florence, CO.

  163. 163.

    Miss Bee

    January 13, 2022 at 10:11 pm

    @Honus:

     

    Yes!  They have a thing for losers.

     

    As does country music–and in a Venn diagram, there is a huge overlap.

     

    These titles alone tell you all you need to know:

     

    “Statue of a Fool”

    “Losers Hall of Fame”

    “Alcohol of Fame”

    “Throwing Beer Cans at the Jukebox”–the next line says “I’m a poster boy for detox.”

    etc etc

  164. 164.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 10:15 pm

    @Kalakal: That’s very interesting. I guess this is sediment from rivers in the area. Maybe a result of deforestation.

  165. 165.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 10:27 pm

    @Tony Jay:

    I am flattered.

    @polyorchnid octopunch:

    I like this idea.

     

    It goes even deeper. The only other poleis to stand with Athens in its hour of need at Marathon was tiny Plataea.

    Later, when Sparta and Athens had their 27 year-long war for hegemony over Greece, Sparta launched a sneak attack in the middle of the night. They rolled into Plataea, announced a coup, and declared admiralty marshall militarily-effectuated dibs. The Plataeans looked around, did some very quick math, and realized there was a company of Peloponnesians on one hand, and an entire CITY full of exceedingly wroth Plataeans on the other. It is said they finished calculating at juuuuust about the sane time the Spartans were reaching the same conclusion. Hilarity ensued.

    They hunted the Spartans down like dogs, then shut the gates on their reinforcements.

    The Spartans couldn’t take that sitting down (even though they started it) so they surrounded, besieged and utterly leveled Plataea. They then executed every Plataean they caught in a kangaroo court.

    Those most manliest paragons of freedom-loving “Western Civilization” utterly razed one of the only two poleis to stand in glory against the Persians (the very same Persians who ended up bankrolling Sparta’s war effort, eventually). And they did it in the name of “freedom for the Greeks”.

    A pack of bald faced hypocrites for a party of bald faced hypocrites to worship.

  166. 166.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 10:30 pm

     

     

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

     

    I…um…what?

    Jeeeezus.

  167. 167.

    Kalakal

    January 13, 2022 at 10:38 pm

    @Geminid: Yes. It was weird when I went there, I was expecting a narrow pass and what’s actually there is some cliffs and a large sloping plain down to the sea miles away and I just thought “hang on, how the hell did 6000 or so people hold up 100,000 or more here?”. In 480 bc the sea was about 100yds from the cliffs and the actual site is now about 70 feet below current ground level. There’s still hot springs there though so the name fits!

    Apparently a lot of it is sediment from the rivers aided and abetted by deposits from the springs themselves, it really made me think about the passage of time when I considered how much the land had built up

  168. 168.

    James E Powell

    January 13, 2022 at 10:55 pm

    @Geminid:

     

    Blocking the vaccine mandate. They want COVID to spread to help Republicans in November.

  169. 169.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 10:57 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    I will defer to your expertise, and confess to glossing a LOT for the sake of a little mirth. I was honestly having more of a poke at our obsession with and valorization of Sparta (of all the Hellenic poleis we could give that treatment) rather than the historical Leonidas.

    I was aware of the points you raised about his auxiliaries and slaves. And those are very fair points. As is the point about most of the Spartiates being tied down watching the Helots. Which, again, is kind of grimly amusing if you watch 300 and all its chirping about free men freely fighting for freedom in a free way because free.

    I was not aware the Spartiates died to the last. I had heard there were a couple survivors – who were lionized on their return, no doubt… ;)

    More seriously, I have heard conflicting scholarship on whether it was intended as an actual holdfast or a mere delaying action. Always eager for more sources/viewpoints! I think the fact their fallback plan was to wall off Pelops’ shoulder and call it a day after the Persians broke thru was…indicative of an incomplete appreciation of the scope of what they faced.

    That said, Fuck Sparta. All five of their villages deserve abject scorn. Of all the ancient polities to idolize, America picks that one??? Naw man.

    The Romans did a lot of utterly horrid shit, but turning Sparta into a theme park, an object of mockery? Good stuff.

  170. 170.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 11:03 pm

    @Kalakal:

    Good and fair points. Also LOL at the changes time has wrought on the terrain.

    My target really is more the ridiculous idolization of that horrid place. Not so much Leonidas.

    I mean, Sparta looks mighty different depending on which sissytia you end up in. At least from what I understand. Good place for the Krypteia. Not so much for the Messenian.

  171. 171.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 11:08 pm

    @Honus:

    As Umberto Eco observed, ur-fascism teaches people to crave a hero’s death. And in his haste to die gloriously, the would-be hero very frequently inflicts what he seeks on those standing next to him…

  172. 172.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 11:09 pm

    @Kalakal: Herodotus wasn’t fit to hold Thucydides’ jock. Entertaining fellow, but…yeah.

  173. 173.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 11:11 pm

    @James E Powell: Despite the title you gave the NPR story,I saw nothing in it about political races this fall. I’m not sure how Covid spreading helps Republicans in November. I don’t see how it will help them in my VA-7 District race. Will it help them in your district?

  174. 174.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 11:11 pm

     

     

    @Brachiator: Oh, that was worth a visit from the Kindly Ones.

     

    (jk, it made me chuckle)

  175. 175.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 11:15 pm

     

     

    @topclimber: Agreed.

     

    “You hate the Spartans? Me too!”

    Like a regular Boeotian League we are.

  176. 176.

    Kalakal

    January 13, 2022 at 11:19 pm

    @Subsole:

    Herodotus wasn’t fit to hold Thucydides’ jock. Entertaining fellow, but…yeah.

    Lol. I’m with you there. You’re right about the ridiculous way Sparta is mythologised, it always amuses me to think about just how well the fanboys who’s default mode is a whiny “I will not comply” would get on in a hyper militarised, totally socially stratified polis that tolerated zero dissent at any level of society. Also how well they’d do on a diet of black broth.

  177. 177.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 11:22 pm

    @Kalakal:

    I mean, I found it instructive that the instant most Greeks were exposed to Spartan governors, they asked for the Delian League back…

  178. 178.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 11:24 pm

    @Subsole: And the Boeotian League would never have allowed the DH.

  179. 179.

    Geminid

    January 13, 2022 at 11:30 pm

    @Kalakal: Spartan: Well, Alcibiades, how do you like our famous black broth?

    Alcibiades: Now I know why Spartans do not fear death.

  180. 180.

    Subsole

    January 13, 2022 at 11:33 pm

    @Geminid: I was not prepared to laugh at this as hard as I did.

    I can now see Diogenes giving Plato all kinds of shit over his proclamations in support of it…

  181. 181.

    Kay

    January 13, 2022 at 11:48 pm

    @James E Powell:

    The religious far Right are near-hysterical over vaccines. I listen to their radio stations sometimes while driving and it has increased to the point where it’s all they talk about. This past week the announcer’s voice was breaking as he described mandates as illegal under the Geneva Conventions. So that’s what the far Right court is responding to. If they track anything they track the religous Right.

    They’ve come up with this odd new (to me) objection to vaccines – that a vaccine can’t be “reversed”. There’s a lot of focus on that, that whatever they’re imagining this vaccine doing it is “permanent”. I think they have to come up with these distinctions because obviously a lot of them are receiving modern medical care and taking all kinds of prescription drugs, etc. and they don’t depict any of that as “can’t be reversed!” so they’ve made this new scary category.

  182. 182.

    Kay

    January 14, 2022 at 12:00 am

    @James E Powell:

    I met a woman last week whose mother was hospitalized with covid, on a vent, released to a nursing home to recover and then eventually home. She’s not well but she survived. In the course of the hospitalization she received 27 different drugs or infusions of one kind or another- they were just throwing everything at it to try to keep her alive.

    “IN YOUR BODY! Can’t be reversed!” Not a concern with whatever they were pumping into her over the course of that ordeal, I guess.

  183. 183.

    StringOnAStick

    January 14, 2022 at 12:02 am

    @Kay: I guess that explains some of the crazy crap out there about how to “reverse the vaccine” a few weeks ago.

  184. 184.

    Kalakal

    January 14, 2022 at 12:11 am

    @Geminid: Lol! Now Sybaris is a place I would have liked to visit*. away I don’t think there was anybody who actually wanted to live a Spartan lifestyle and that includes the Spartans if they could get far enough away. Lysander came in for a hell of a lot of criticism for his lifestyle even as he was finally winning the Peleponnesian war

    or it may have been just because he was shifty as all getout

    *As long as I was a member of the nobility of course.

  185. 185.

    Kay

    January 14, 2022 at 12:14 am

    @StringOnAStick:

    It’s funny because I’ve been lucky enough not to take a lot of prescription drugs but I don’t have a clue how any of them work. If you asked me to describe how an antibiotic works I can’t do it. Can it be “reversed”? Well, I don’t know. I assume it just sort of goes away. Or not! Don’t know. But “reversal” played no part at all in my decision to take it.

  186. 186.

    Sebastian

    January 14, 2022 at 2:03 am

    @Subsole:

    You know the best thing? The Spartans were actually only good at PR and upholding a myth because they got their asses kicked all the time but in many battles were they fought together with others they insisted to have the right most position in the line up of units because each side would put their best unit there and so the Spartans would always face the weakest enemy unit.

    I think I have the link still somewhere.

  187. 187.

    Sebastian

    January 14, 2022 at 2:36 am

    @Jeffro:

    That’s how it all started. Got a whole continent, with farms and orchards and everything but it was rugged individualism!

  188. 188.

    Sebastian

    January 14, 2022 at 2:54 am

    @Kirk Spencer:

    Thank you writing this up. I never knew.

  189. 189.

    Sebastian

    January 14, 2022 at 3:11 am

    @Geminid: @Kalakal: @Subsole:

    you guys are absolutely amazing and this is a legendary conversation.

  190. 190.

    Lacuna Synecdoche

    January 14, 2022 at 6:06 am

    @Roger Moore: ​

    I think the people around Trump may be difficult to turn. They seem to have bought into the criminal code of silence.

    Maybe. But I suspect a lot of Trump’s sycophants will be thinking less “Omerta” and more “Oh, merde.” Especially when their lawyers describe the sentences the minions facing.

    Granted, some of the more militaristic followers might pride themselves on their ability to hold out against legal pressure, but political sycophants aren’t widely known for their resolve.

  191. 191.

    Miss Bianca

    January 14, 2022 at 9:36 am

    @persistentillusion: You stop dissing Florence! It’s the antiques AND Supermax capital of Colorado!

  192. 192.

    Paul in KY

    January 14, 2022 at 12:32 pm

    @NotMax: Wait till King Charles III.  He’ll remove the Dukedom of York from him.  Will make him Vicount Piddlybottom

  193. 193.

    Villago Delenda Est

    January 14, 2022 at 1:42 pm

    @Subsole: ​
     Victor Davis Hansen is a Nazi pig. That explains 300

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