Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

I was confident that someone would point it out and thought why not me.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

Schmidt just says fuck it, opens a tea shop.

Bad news for Ron DeSantis is great news for America.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

Republicans in disarray!

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

White supremacy is terrorism.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

A last alliance of elves and men. also pet photos.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

“That’s what the insurrection act is for!”

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

Innocent people don’t delay justice.

You are here: Home / Politics / domestic terrorists / Thursday Evening Open Thread: Seditious Conspiracy

Thursday Evening Open Thread: Seditious Conspiracy

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Stewart Rhodes, the founder and leader of the far-right Oath Keepers militia group, and 10 other members or associates have been charged with seditious conspiracy in the violent attack on the U.S. Capitol, authorities said Thursday.

Despite hundreds of charges already brought in the year since pro-Trump rioters stormed the Capitol in an effort to stop the certification of President Joe Biden’s 2020 election victory, these were the first seditious conspiracy charges levied in connection with the attack on Jan. 6, 2021.

It marked a serious escalation in the largest investigation in the Justice Department’s history – more than 700 people have been arrested and charged with federal crimes – and highlighted the work that has gone into piecing together the most complicated cases. The charges rebut, in part, the growing chorus of Republican lawmakers who have publicly challenged the seriousness of the insurrection, arguing that since no one had been charged yet with sedition or treason, it could not have been so violent.

The indictment alleges Oath Keepers for weeks discussed trying to overturn the election results and preparing for a siege by purchasing weapons and setting up battle plans. They repeatedly wrote in chats about the prospect of violence and the need, as Rhodes allegedly wrote in one text, “to scare the s—-out of” Congress. And on Jan. 6, the indictment alleges, they entered the Capitol building with the large crowds of rioters who stormed past police barriers and smashed windows, injuring dozens of officers and sending lawmakers running…

The indictment against Rhodes alleges Oath Keepers formed two teams, or “stacks,” that entered the Capitol. The first stack split up inside the building to separately go after the House and Senate. The second stack confronted officers inside the Capitol Rotunda, the indictment said. Outside Washington, the indictment alleges, the Oath Keepers had stationed two “quick reaction forces” that had guns “in support of their plot to stop the lawful transfer of power.”

Rhodes, 56, of Granbury, Texas, is the highest-ranking member of an extremist group to be arrested in the deadly siege. He and Edward Vallejo, 63, of Phoenix, Arizona, were arrested on Thursday. The nine others were already facing criminal charges related to the attack…


There is another are ten others…

Reader Interactions

193Comments

  5. 5.

    Paul W.

    This reminds me that the only thing that will stop the Republican creeping coupe from becoming a violent one, again, is negative consequences for their actions. So far they have had very few, and those that have received it are mid or low level and easily replaced with newer and crazier models.

    Trump and Trump direct affiliates need to feel the hurt before people will stop bowing to him and assuming he is just one more lucky die roll from being in power.

  7. 7.

    JPL

    Who’s next?  I assume Stone is not sleeping easy tonight, but personally I’d rather see Mark Meadows in cuffs.

  9. 9.

    dm

    Re: Kilgore Trout and “Moron Labe” — whenever I see Ted Cruz or MTG with a face mask reading “Molon Labe”, I think: “You spelled ‘Moron Label’ wrong.”

  10. 10.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    Always remember that Oathkeepers were founded because a black man had the audacity to get himself elected President of the United States. They were convinced that the government was going to take their guns. Us at the anti birther forum covered them extensively at the time. They are racist as well as being seditious. They are dangerous because they are former law enforcement and military.  It is very good news that they have been seen for what they are.

  12. 12.

    Geminid

    Mistal says he doesn’t think Rhodes will flip, and he may be right. When the conspiracy failed, though, Rhodes was quick to disown the Oathkeepers who entered the Capitol. He knew he had bought more trouble than he wanted. So Rhodes might not tough it out. Even if he doesn’t flip, prosecutors may be able to work around him to get the goods on Roger Stone. That would put them one step away from Trump.

  13. 13.

    Roger Moore

    @dm:

    IIRC, Ted Cruz avoids the “Molon Labe” version.  He prefers the Texas-specific version based on the flag with the Gonzales cannon on it. It’s actually a decent populist take, wrapping up the message in a way that will play especially well in his state.

  15. 15.

    Roger Moore

    @Geminid:

    Even if he doesn’t flip, prosecutors may be able to work around him to get the goods on Roger Stone. That would put them one step away from Trump.

    I think the people around Trump may be difficult to turn.  They seem to have bought into the criminal code of silence.

  17. 17.

    debbie

    Reposting to make sure sab and anyone else who’s interested sees this:

    For anyone interested in the Ohio Supreme Court’s rejection of the state redistricting map, I’m providing a link for a local NPR station’s broadcast this morning about this issue. Among the participants was the Executive Director for Ohio’s League of Women Voters (a really sharp cookie). Among other things, she says the LWV filed a complaint about the Congressional redistricting map (separate from the state map), and she expects a ruling soon. I think it was sab who thought that door had been closed.

  18. 18.

    Geminid

    @JPL: I don’t think Meadows would have been “read in” to the conspiracy. He was a politician who had not been in Trump’s orbit long enough to be proven reliable. Roger Stone, on the other hand, had already done Trump’s dirty work connecting with the Russians in 2016. Stone also had ties with the militias, and is said to be initiated into the Proud Boys. I think he is more likely to have been trusted to liase betwen Trump and the insurrectionists.

  20. 20.

    Roger Moore

    @Alison Rose:

    It seems to me like a classic case of conservatives appropriating someone else’s struggle to make themselves feel heroic.  Wanting to pay less in taxes is equivalent to the American Revolution.  Having to provide proof of COVID vaccination to eat in a restaurant is like Jewish people being forced into concentration camps.  Not being allowed to buy as many guns as they feel like is just like fighting to the last man against the Persians.

  22. 22.

    trollhattan

    This Rhodes dude looks like a B movie casting call reject, if Rent-a-Wreck remade themselves as a talent agency.

  27. 27.

    TM

    @Roger Moore:
    ​
    With the conspiracy charges, you don’t need people around Trump to flip. You just need a conspirator who talked about the conspiracy with people around Trump. Pretty sure that Oath Keepers/Proud Boys were talking to Roger Stone, for example, who was talking to Rudy Giuliani and Steve Bannon and Alex Jones, etc.

  28. 28.

    trollhattan

    Huh, George Conway’s still alive. Not what I would have predicted after the spouse moved back in.

  33. 33.

    randy khan

    Someone complaining that nobody had been indicted for treason either has no idea what he or she is talking about or is acting in bad faith, since treason charges require working with an actual foreign enemy of the U.S. (that is, another country).

  34. 34.

    burnspbesq

    It’s time for DOJ to play Queen for a Day with these assholes. The first person who gives up the leaders of the conspiracy gets reduced charges in exchange for cooperation. The rest of them do 20–ideally in Florence.

  38. 38.

    Baud

    @zhena gogolia:

    Garland is going to arrest Trump, which will prevent him from being the GOP nominee and take away out best chance at Biden winning reelection. #ComingSoonToTwitter

  40. 40.

    Quinerly

    Buried in the CNN piece:

    “All I see Trump doing is complaining. I see no intent by him to do anything,” Rhodes allegedly wrote. “So the patriots are taking it into their own hands. They’ve had enough,” he allegedly said on Signal at 1:38 p.m. that day, shortly after the siege had begun.

  42. 42.

    Gin & Tonic

    @MomSense: Signal is encrypted. The phone company couldn’t give anything. Even if it weren’t, the phone company can’t give contents – just call detail records (who called whom and when.)

  43. 43.

    Geminid

    @Roger Moore: Stone is a freak, and may be as unbreakable now as he was when targeted by the Mueller investigation. He seems to have financial problems now, and that could change his thinking. Stone also does not have the likely prospect of a pardon like he did before.

    Are there others who can connect Trump to the Insurrectionists? Trump is a career criminal, and learned early on to use as few people as possible to do his dirty work. It seems like there was a certain amount of improvisation in this conspiracy, though, and it may have involved more people than ideal, and less trustworthy ones. At this point, I really wouldn’t be surprised at anything that comes out.

  45. 45.

    TheOtherHank

    My favorite thing about everyone sporting the Molon Labe merch, is that after the Spartans said it, the Persians did, in fact, come and take them

  47. 47.

    John Revolta

    Eyepatch Guy doesn’t have to flip. They indicted ten more of these assholes as well; and only the first ones to talk will get the deals…………………….

  48. 48.

    MomSense

    @Gin & Tonic:

    They can.  Happened to me during the reign of C+Augustus. When it happened to me it was extra legal, but the DOJ, any prosecutor, can get phone records.

  51. 51.

    Subsole

    @Geminid:

    I think Elie doesn’t have clue fucking one about these people and how they operate.

    I mean, what? You seriously think the loudmouth Libertarian isn’t gonna throw EEEEEERRRRRRRYYYBODY under the bus to stay out of jail?

    Ehheh. Eh hehheheheheheHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA etc, etc.

  52. 52.

    RandomMonster

    @Geminid: Stone also does not have the likely prospect of a pardon like he did before.

    Like Bannon, he’ll try to hold out to see if Trump is back in ‘24.

  55. 55.

    Subsole

     

     

    @TheOtherHank: Yeah. Leonidas was actually a royal dumbass. Idiot legit though 300 men were gonna hold off the largest Empire on earth. He really, truly believed it.

    The guy who ran the most grimly oppressive eugenics-based slave state in all of Greece, practically the North Korea of the ancient world, failed to account for turncoats or local sympathizers.

    The guy whose throne sat on a mountain of Helots failed to account for the possibility someone might hate his guts more than they hated the Persians.

    And the absolute diamond-studded crown of hilarity on the whole situation?

    It was those soft, effeminate democrats in Athens who saved all of Hellas.

    But they didn’t have some dipshit with masculinity issues make a bitchin’ comic book/movie about them, so…

     

    I really wonder what it’s like to live in a country where the history teachers aren’t all named Coach.

  56. 56.

    Geminid

    @JPL: Meadows certainly is not innocent as far as that side of the conspiracy. I was thinking more of the “hard coup” of the assault on the Capitol. Meadows may not have been privy to that part of the plan, although he might have had second hand knowledge. He would be like Senator Tuberville. Tuberville was present at the Trump Hotel the night before, and probably knew the role he was expected to play in the Senate proceedings. But Tuberville being dumber than a post, I doubt he was given information about the upcoming violence. I think that was more closely held.

  58. 58.

    Gravenstone

    @Quinerly: “All I see Trump doing is complaining. I see no intent by him to do anything,”

    Was this like his first time seeing Trump’s schtick? All that fucker has ever done is piss and moan. When he wasn’t busy lying, cheating and stealing.

  60. 60.

    Tony Jay

    @Subsole:

    I really wonder what it’s like to live in a country where the history teachers aren’t all named Coach.

    Oh now, that tickled me. I may have to steal that line for use at some point because it’s got genuine quality.

  61. 61.

    polyorchnid octopunch

    @Subsole: The Democrats should adopt “marathon” as a code word meaning exactly this. The shopkeepers and goat herders that Leonidas derided beat back the Persians in the battle of Marathon. “Governance is not a token gesture, it is a marathon, and we are here to the finish.”

  63. 63.

    MomSense

    Yes. It was widely reported at the time.  They were surveilling us because we were part of a peace and Justice group organizing and protesting against the Iraq War.

  65. 65.

    Mike in NC

    The videos showing the Oath Breakers streaming into the Capitol wearing tactical gear were disturbing. I saw where they were going to call in “Quick Reaction Forces” to rush guns into DC had they succeeded in their treason.

  66. 66.

    Geminid

    @Gravenstone: One factor that may influence the insurrectionists’ loyalty to Trump is that he raised tens of millions of dollars after the election to fight “the Steal,” and is sitting on that money like some bloated dragon. People are stuck in jail and going to prison for Trump and he won’t spend a dime to defend them. Some of these folks are as simple minded and loyal as that Rally Runner weirdo, but others may want revenge on the man who got them in this mess.

  67. 67.

    RobertB

    @polyorchnid octopunch: Marathon was in the invasion prior, under Darius.  Athenians fought that one without Spartan help; yet another festival in the way I think.  The two battles that halted Xerxes’ invasion were Salamis (naval) and Platea (land).

  70. 70.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Subsole:

    I really wonder what it’s like to live in a country where the history teachers aren’t all named Coach.

    You…. raaaaang?

    Anna Yonas @annayonas
    Virginia’s proposed social studies reform legislation is terrible for myriad reasons, but the assertion that the Lincoln-Douglas debates were between Lincoln and Frederick Douglass is a new level of historical inaccuracy.

    We can report that, once again, Frederick Douglass is someone who is getting recognized more and more.

  71. 71.

    Baud

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Elections have consequences.

    The founding documents of the United States, including the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution, the Federalist Papers, including Essays 10 and 51, excerpts from Alexis de Tocqueville’s Democracy in America, the first debate between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, and the writings of the Founding Fathers of the United States.

  72. 72.

    Geminid

    @RobertB: Attica was still a rural, agriculture based state at the time of the Persian wars. It changed rapidly afterwards, when Themistocles built up it’s naval power, and Pericles ended the dominance of wealthy land owners by cutting the Areapagetica, their Senate, down to size. It was a very different state just two generations after Platea.

  75. 75.

    NotMax

    Liz gets serious.

    Queen Elizabeth II has removed all of Prince Andrew’s military titles and royal patronages days after it emerged that her son, who is also known as the Duke of York, will face a civil trial in New York after his motion to dismiss Virginia Giuffre’s sexual assault case was thrown out by a judge.

    A statement from Buckingham Palace, released Thursday evening U.K. time, reads: “With The Queen’s approval and agreement, The Duke of York’s military affiliations and Royal patronages have been returned to the Queen. The Duke of York will continue not to undertake any public duties and is defending this case as a private citizen.”
    [snip]
    The Queen’s unprecedented intervention, which comes in the year of her jubilee, celebrating 70 years on the throne, follows Wednesday’s news that a New York judge had thrown out Prince Andrew’s motion to dismiss Giuffre’s civil case. Source

  78. 78.

    Roger Moore

    @Subsole:

    Leonidas was actually a royal dumbass. Idiot legit though 300 men were gonna hold off the largest Empire on earth. He really, truly believed it.

    I think you’re being unfair to Leonidas, for a few reasons.  For one, it was way more than 300 troops.  There were 300 full Spartan citizens, but each of them was supported by less well armed and armored helots.  Also, the Spartans had allies, so there were something like 5000 hoplites at the battle plus auxiliaries.  The 300 Spartans who died to the last man in the battle were serving as a rear guard after their position had been turned, which successfully allowed most of the rest of the Greek forces to escape.

    For another thing, the force was never intended to stop the Persians cold.  It was intended to slow them down enough for the Greeks to rally their forces.  In particular, the Spartan ephors had forbidden the main army from leaving right away, so Leonidas was only able to take his personal bodyguard.  The basic strategy of slowing the enemy down by occupying a choke-point that would allow a small number of more heavily armed troops to hold out for an extended period was basically reasonable.  It wasn’t as successful as they hoped, but it wasn’t a crazy idea.

    And yes, the Greeks knew there was an alternative way around the position, and they sent troops to guard it.  Those troops did their job badly, and the Greek position might have held for considerably longer and been left with less loss of life had they succeeded at holding their position.

  79. 79.

    Kalakal

    @Subsole: A fun thing about Thermopylae is the 300 was more like 3,000 if you count the rest of the Greeks at the final battle, doesn’t look so good in a comic though. The really best bit is if you go there, your first thought is “Why didn’t the Persians just walk round those suicidal hardcases?” Thanks to sedimentation the pass is now over 5 miles wide.

    I see Robert got there before me, there is also some evidence that a supporting seaborne force supplied by other Greek forces was supposed to reinforce the seaward flank. The actual battle site was only a 100 yards wide. With an initial force of maybe 7000 it wasn’t a boneheaded plan

  81. 81.

    Quinerly

    On Nov. 5, 2020, the indictment says, Rhodes created a group chat on encrypted messaging app Signal titled “Leadership intel sharing secured.”

    “We aren’t getting through this without a civil war,” Rhodes purportedly wrote to the chat.

    Two days later, when major news networks called the election for Biden, Rhodes had a plan. Prosecutors said that it was based on the reaction to Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic.

    “We must now do what the people of Serbia did when Milosevic stole their election,” Rhodes allegedly wrote. “Refuse to accept it and march en-masse on the nation’s Capitol.”

  84. 84.

    RaflW

    @Quinerly: If one is approvingly referencing Milošević, one is definitely a) aware of the company you keep and b) contemplating war or at least war crimes.

    The Oathkeepers need to be completely broken down, and any remnants not charge be closely tracked by anti-extremism specialists in law enforcement.

  87. 87.

    Jeffro

    @Roger Moore: conservatives appropriating someone else’s struggle to make themselves feel heroic.  Wanting to pay less in taxes is equivalent to the American Revolution.  Having to provide proof of COVID vaccination to eat in a restaurant is like Jewish people being forced into concentration camps.  Not being allowed to buy as many guns as they feel like is just like fighting to the last man against the Persians.

    The examples are endless.

    The topic is a good one for an op-ed!

    Endless grievance, supported by ridiculously false comparisons.  That’s all they got.

  88. 88.

    Kalakal

    @Cacti: Yep, Herodotus wasn’t known as the father of lies for nothing. The opposing forces at Platea are estimated to have been roughly equal.

  90. 90.

    Brachiator

    @Baud:

    The founding documents of the United States, including the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution, the Federalist Papers, including Essays 10 and 51, excerpts from Alexis de Tocqueville’s Democracy in America, the first debate between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, and the writings of the Founding Fathers of the United States.

    Jeez! Everybody knows that it was Abraham Lincoln and Buster Douglas. Fifteen rounds.

  91. 91.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Quinerly: Might just be me, but when I think of Trump and the Oath Keepers I view *them* as analogous to Milošević. They certainly aren’t Koštunica or the DOS.

  92. 92.

    Roger Moore

    @RobertB:

    Marathon was in the invasion prior, under Darius. Athenians fought that one without Spartan help; yet another festival in the way I think. The two battles that halted Xerxes’ invasion were Salamis (naval) and Platea (land).

    This is correct.  Marathon was the result of what was basically a Persian punitive expedition against Athens for helping Greek cities in Asia minor rebel.  The Persians weren’t able to follow up their defeat immediately, but when they were able they sent a much larger force with the goal of subjugating Greece completely.

    The Spartans (and Phocians, Thespians, etc.) fought at Thermopylae to slow the Persians down and give the rest of the Greeks time to get their forces together.  They weren’t completely successful, but the Peleponesian Greeks were able to block the isthmus of Corinth, which blocked the Persian army from advancing any further.  The Greeks navy, led by the Athenians, then ended the major threat of the invasion by destroying the Persian navy at Salamis.  That prevented the Persians from bypassing the isthmus and forced the majority of the Persian army to retreat due to supply problems.  The Persians left their best forces behind to keep hold of the territory they had occupied, but the Greeks, led by the Spartans and Athenians, crushed them at Platea, freeing the occupied area.

  93. 93.

    Jeffro

    @randy khan:Someone complaining that nobody had been indicted for treason either has no idea what he or she is talking about or is acting in bad faith, since treason charges require working with an actual foreign enemy of the U.S. (that is, another country).

    Another good topic for an op-ed:

    “…treason is what trumpov was doing selling us out to Russia, a hostile foreign power…sedition is what trumpov’s followers were doing by trying to keep trumpov in power via a coup…”

  94. 94.

    David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch

    The Spartan were paper tigers. They were crushed by Ohio St 56-7.

  95. 95.

    Gin & Tonic

    @RaflW: They are not approvingly referencing him, they are, I suppose, approvingly referencing the massive protests from the September 2000 election until the overthrow of Milošević two or so weeks later.

  98. 98.

    Frank Wilhoit

    @debbie: I presume there is already a bill in the General Assembly to strip the SC of its powers of judicial review.  I further presume that the state rep who introduced it referred, more than once, to “unelected judges”.

    …and anyhow, does anyone remember how the school-funding kerfuffle played out?

  99. 99.

    Honus

    @TheOtherHank: that’s what I always think when I see that. Also, the three hundred got wiped out.  And Sherman predicted exactly what would happen to the confederacy before the war started.  These people have a thing for losers.

  103. 103.

    Buckeye

    @Quinerly: ​

    I saw the Milosevic reference earlier and thought that Elmer Stewart Rhodes III would have definitely been supporting Milosevic. Or at least his aims and tactics.

  106. 106.

    Geminid

    @Kalakal: The Persians did walk, or hike, around the Spartan position at Thermopylai. Some goat herds showed them a path through the mountains, and a force was able to attack the Spartans from the rear and end the battle. The Persian losses were still daunting to an army that until then had conquered without bloodshed. When the Spartans, Athenians (and Thespians) attacked them later at Platea, the Persians broke.

    The assault on the Alamo resembled Thermopylai in that even though the defenders were wiped out, the casualties they inflicted took the temper out of the Mexican army, and set up the Texican victory at San Jacinto.

    Between Thermopylai and the Alamo in time, the Swiss did something similar, to an invading army from Burgundy. Several hundred Swiss soldiers did not wait for the rest of their countrymen to gather, but rushed the invading army. The small Swiss force was wiped out, but the battered Burgundians decided they’d had enough and retreated before the rest of the Swiss came up.

    But I think I have flouted my knowledge of military history enough.

  107. 107.

    sab

    @Frank Wilhoit: Badly. Kicked down the road forever ( i.e. ignored.) All the rubes thought they were voting to defund urban schools of doubtful ethnicity, but actually the schools they were defunding were rural schools in counties along the Ohio River.

    I was shocked by rural British education as described by Fionna Hill, but Appalachian Ohio is nearly as bad.

    Rolphe has four different cases over the decades. Same issue, can kicked down the road every time

    ETA Every case won, but then ignored by the legislature.

  108. 108.

    Brachiator

    @Geminid:

    When the Spartans, Athenians (and Thespians) attacked them later at Platea, the Persians broke.

    I understand that the Thespians, in particular, put on quite a show.

  109. 109.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Brachiator: Jeez! Everybody knows that it was Abraham Lincoln and Buster Douglas. Fifteen rounds.

    No.  It was a rap battle between Honest Abe and Busta Rhymes.

  110. 110.

    scav

    @NotMax: Busy day.  Because there’s accumulating supporting evidence that it was really really really hard to distinguish working at N° 10 and 24/7 clubbing. Two more Downing Street parties, these two rather inopportunely right before Phillip’s funeral, handily equipped with socially isolating widow with global media coverage.  No fear though, Sir Flobalob had already decamped to his weekend digs, so he wasn’t personally trying to figure out what all the loud music and alcohol runs were about.

  111. 111.

    sab

    @debbie: responded to your mention of me last thread. Congress map open. Not so awful but still bad. I still am hopeful, even if we lose but I think we may win. That map was much less awful than the defeated maps.

  112. 112.

    sab

    I always knew Ancient Greece was determinative of modern American politics.

    // I love this blog and I will keep my mind open.

  113. 113.

    sab

    Last year computer, new printer, new payroll package since Office Max went belly up.

    Spent the better part of two days rounding up the right components and software to do payroll for two fucking W-2s. And then figuring out the software. I have been doing this for 35 years and every year it gets harder which makes no sense. Twenty year old quantoids gumming up the works reinventing the wheel.

    I bought a program, loaded it and figured it out, printed it on their software and forms and stuff didn’t line up into the boxes correctly.  They tried to blame my printer. Too fucking bad. Social Security, IRS and all the state and local governments can just fucking figure out which number went to which box.

    Should have taken fifteen minutes. Always used to.

  116. 116.

    Benw

    Dude, when it seems like more than half of the dishes in your sink are coffee mugs and take out trays, you might not win the best parent. Seriously, sans ashtray and empty liquor bottles my kitchen looks like a 50’s gumshoe took care of my kids this week.

  118. 118.

    Geminid

    @sab: I think the Ohio Supreme Court heard arguments over the challenge to the Congressional map just last week, some time after the case concerning the state legislative districts was considered. Time is important here, and the Court should deliver it’s decision in the second case soon, maybe even tomorrow. It would seem that the same majority will send the Congressional map back to the redistricting commission, but this is not certain.

  119. 119.

    Bill Arnold

    @JPL:

    I assume Stone is not sleeping easy tonight, but personally I’d rather see Mark Meadows in cuffs.

    Mr. Roger Stone will do almost anything to stay out of prison. That could make it interesting. But both would be fine.
    (I’m fairly sure that there are a few things he won’t talk about for reasons other than … US law enforcement.)

  122. 122.

    Bill Arnold

    @Baud:

    Actually, I don’t think the phone company would have Signal messages. Those are encrypted by the app.

    Signal is roughly as secure as the physical security of the union of all the endpoints. Seize a phone and crack it, and any saved messages (the default) are cleartext. Cooperating witness, same. (And phone owners can always screencap just to be sure.)

  123. 123.

    patrick II

    @Baud:

    It has only recently occurred to me why Cheney is working so hard to bring Trump down.  If Trump is re-elected in ’24 he will be dictator for life, and with the Presidential level of medical care, that could be a long, if increasingly limited capacity life.  She will never get to be the first woman president then.

  124. 124.

    topclimber

    @Roger Moore: ​I prefer to believe that the goatherd who revealed the trail to the Spartan position was mindful of what f—ing beasts the Spartans were to their helot slaves.

    Which is to say: it ain’t just about the tactics.

    Full disclosure: big fan of the Spartans at Thermopylae as a youngin’ until later learning their legendary warrior caste was built on an uber-brutal regime. Sort of like the cosplaying cavaliers of Dixie, only I never admired them at all. I never could reconcile their defense of Southern womanhood with their propensity to pork every black woman they could. Not for lustorious reasons, Lordy No!, but just to improve the breeding stock.

  125. 125.

    Kalakal

    @Geminid: That’s true. I was (jokingly) referring not to the path inland of Thermopylae the Persians used but that the Hot Gates themselves are no longer a narrow pass due to geographical changes. The coastlines now about 5 miles further away. If the battle was fought now the Persians could have just strolled along the beach collecting seashells and yelling at Leonidas that his father smelt of elderberries .  There’s some fun weirdies in geographical change, Sluys (now about 10 miles

    inland) was the site of a major naval battle,

  126. 126.

    Geminid

    @topclimber: I read that the Alamo’s defenders took a several assaults to defeat, and killed and wounded a lot of their attackers. But Wikipedia probably knows better than I do.

  127. 127.

    James E Powell

    Anybody want to talk about the supreme court working for the Republican congressional elections? Do we really have to put up with this bullshit?

  129. 129.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    This looks like good news (thread)

    Matthew Yglesias @mattyglesias
    Biden is nominating Sarah Bloom Raskin, Lisa Cook, and Philip Jefferson to the three vacancies on the Federal Reserve Board of Governors.

    Raskin is a former Fed Governor, former Deputy Treasury Secretary, married to Rep. Jamie Raskin, and well-liked by financial regulation hawks.

  130. 130.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Just got off the 4D zoom call, so am well behind on the thread and don’t know whether this has been discussed. But Rachel just led with Justice Sotomayor’s incredible dissent on the SCOTUS OSHA ruling today. She is so good (SS, I mean, although of course I also like RM).

    Do read it if you can. I’ll see if I can find a link.

  132. 132.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Baud:

    Yes, but I was under the impression that she wrote it. Not trying to take anything at all away from Kagan or Breyer.

  133. 133.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Baud: ​ Any of them have the middle name Wayne?

    Ah yes, “the classic middle name” as Chuck Shepherd called it.

    Certainly wouldn’t surprise me if some of them did.

  134. 134.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Vile Faux Noise fuckstick Jonathan Turley sez that these indictments kinda let TFG off the hook.  Whistling past the graveyard, this fascist motherfucker is.

  135. 135.

    Baud

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    I don’t know.  Usually, a dissent names an author and the other justices that join the author. This one names three joint authors.  Maybe there’s more info on authorship out there than what’s on the face of the dissent.

  137. 137.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Baud:

    Shrug emoji. I dunno, I’m just going by Rachel.

    ETA: The point is, no matter who wrote it, it is a solid, strong statement of dissent.

  138. 138.

    Kalakal

    @Villago Delenda Est: How the hell did he come to that conclusion? All they show is that the Garland is moving up the food chain, says nothing about how high he’s going to go. It’s very encouraging news but not for our home grown fascists

  139. 139.

    Geminid

    @topclimber: The Spartans formally declared war on their Helots every year. That made it lawful for a Spartan citizen to kill a Helot if he thought it neccessary.

  145. 145.

    Geminid

    @patrick II: I don’t think Liz Cheney expects she’ll ever be President. She may have at one time, but not now. If Cheney loses her primary this year, she may never even hold elective office again.

    Cheney does hate Donald Trump’s guts, though.

  146. 146.

    Kalakal

    @Baud: Silly me. I should have realised, he’s just spouting shit for the marks. As you say it’s written into all Faux contracts

  148. 148.

    Kirk Spencer

    @topclimber: Geminid gives a good answer (of course) but the short answer is “it depends”.

    More Mexicans than defenders died. How many was that? accounts vary, but there’s a general consensus among non-Texan historians that 400-600 Mexicans died vs the approximately 200 Texians defending. Which isn’t that great a difference given a defense of a (mediocre to poor) fortification.

    Texans will tell you the number was over a thousand and ‘probably’ closer to 1600 Mexicans, by the way.

    What makes it a lot more amusing/sad is that a lot of and probably the majority of deaths among the Mexicans were self-inflicted. Example the greatest: the first assault, done three times, was three groups in column formation as opposed to line. Experienced and trained soldiers know only the front rank (or two, or if you’re some of the elites three ranks) shoots. If however your assaulting columns are a group of recruits conscripted and trained en route to the battle, everyone shoots and the front ranks get thin. Just for example.

    I’ve seen everything from 20% to 80% as an estimate of how many Mexican casualties were due to ‘friendly fire’ through the engagement.

    The delay was also only sort real. On the one hand the army stopped to besiege the Alamo for 13 days. On the other hand Santa Ana had told his superiors he would take San Antonio by the 2d of March, and he took it on the 6th. Still, it gave Texas 13 days to form a relief force that turned around then turned into a fingerpointing session about who was to blame for it turning around. They were still around long enough that Houston grabbed most of them for his army.

    The battle itself was basically a mix of training and vanity. Logistically and practically Santa Ana could have pretty much bypassed the group, or even left one of the three companies that did the assault to maintain the seige. But Santa Ana chose to use it as a training exercise for his recruits before facing ‘real’ soldiers in the field. And then he decided to do the assault when it looked like the place was about to collapse because a battle is more stirring than a surrender — especially when you’ve pumped things up with a no-quarter declaration.

    Long-winded, I know, but it’s very much an eye of the beholder thing. And as much as I ridicule it, there is no doubt that it’s the key reason Houston was able to force and win a battle at San Jacinto.

  150. 150.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @RaflW: Yeah, proposed by the guy who invented the perpetually mocked “Friedman Unit” of the deserting coward’s Great Mesopotamian Adventure.

  151. 151.

    sab

    @sab: Briefly tried to call for help. They put me on hold. Very weird. Pep talks with Shaquille O ‘Neal interspersed with Korean or Chinese sort of  classical music. I hung in for about five minutes. Thinking the whole time, so on about the fourth iteration of Shaq  into Korean music I figured out my problem.

  153. 153.

    Josie

    @Geminid: In this instance I tend to think you are more correct than Wikipedia.

    On another topic, I saw in the Post article the interesting tidbit that Rhodes served as an aide to Libertarian Ron Paul after Yale Law.

  154. 154.

    Fair Economist

    @Cacti: Near certainty the Persian army was overstated. Herodotus seems to have listed the entire Persian army, including units like Indian border troops that almost certainly would not have been there.

  155. 155.

    sab

    @sab: My sister’s kids are half Chinese and they absolutely love Chinese classical music. Also western classical.

    I love western classical but I don’t understand Chinese. But these Ohio raised musical kids love it.

    ETA My sister would not recognize any music if it jumped on her head and tried to strangle her. Her mind follows my dad’s family.

  157. 157.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Anna Yonas @annayonas
    Virginia’s proposed social studies reform legislation is terrible for myriad reasons, but the assertion that the Lincoln-Douglas debates were between Lincoln and Frederick Douglass is a new level of historical inaccuracy.

    Unbefuckinglievable.

  160. 160.

    topclimber

    @Fair Economist: Hey, since economist is in your name, perhaps you know what’s behind a Biden tweet the other day that inflation is moderating? Or at least that numbers were better.

  163. 163.

    Miss Bee

    @Honus:

     

    Yes!  They have a thing for losers.

     

    As does country music–and in a Venn diagram, there is a huge overlap.

     

    These titles alone tell you all you need to know:

     

    “Statue of a Fool”

    “Losers Hall of Fame”

    “Alcohol of Fame”

    “Throwing Beer Cans at the Jukebox”–the next line says “I’m a poster boy for detox.”

    etc etc

  165. 165.

    Subsole

    @Tony Jay:

    I am flattered.

    @polyorchnid octopunch:

    I like this idea.

     

    It goes even deeper. The only other poleis to stand with Athens in its hour of need at Marathon was tiny Plataea.

    Later, when Sparta and Athens had their 27 year-long war for hegemony over Greece, Sparta launched a sneak attack in the middle of the night. They rolled into Plataea, announced a coup, and declared admiralty marshall militarily-effectuated dibs. The Plataeans looked around, did some very quick math, and realized there was a company of Peloponnesians on one hand, and an entire CITY full of exceedingly wroth Plataeans on the other. It is said they finished calculating at juuuuust about the sane time the Spartans were reaching the same conclusion. Hilarity ensued.

    They hunted the Spartans down like dogs, then shut the gates on their reinforcements.

    The Spartans couldn’t take that sitting down (even though they started it) so they surrounded, besieged and utterly leveled Plataea. They then executed every Plataean they caught in a kangaroo court.

    Those most manliest paragons of freedom-loving “Western Civilization” utterly razed one of the only two poleis to stand in glory against the Persians (the very same Persians who ended up bankrolling Sparta’s war effort, eventually). And they did it in the name of “freedom for the Greeks”.

    A pack of bald faced hypocrites for a party of bald faced hypocrites to worship.

  167. 167.

    Kalakal

    @Geminid: Yes. It was weird when I went there, I was expecting a narrow pass and what’s actually there is some cliffs and a large sloping plain down to the sea miles away and I just thought “hang on, how the hell did 6000 or so people hold up 100,000 or more here?”. In 480 bc the sea was about 100yds from the cliffs and the actual site is now about 70 feet below current ground level. There’s still hot springs there though so the name fits!

    Apparently a lot of it is sediment from the rivers aided and abetted by deposits from the springs themselves, it really made me think about the passage of time when I considered how much the land had built up

  169. 169.

    Subsole

    @Roger Moore:

    I will defer to your expertise, and confess to glossing a LOT for the sake of a little mirth. I was honestly having more of a poke at our obsession with and valorization of Sparta (of all the Hellenic poleis we could give that treatment) rather than the historical Leonidas.

    I was aware of the points you raised about his auxiliaries and slaves. And those are very fair points. As is the point about most of the Spartiates being tied down watching the Helots. Which, again, is kind of grimly amusing if you watch 300 and all its chirping about free men freely fighting for freedom in a free way because free.

    I was not aware the Spartiates died to the last. I had heard there were a couple survivors – who were lionized on their return, no doubt… ;)

    More seriously, I have heard conflicting scholarship on whether it was intended as an actual holdfast or a mere delaying action. Always eager for more sources/viewpoints! I think the fact their fallback plan was to wall off Pelops’ shoulder and call it a day after the Persians broke thru was…indicative of an incomplete appreciation of the scope of what they faced.

    That said, Fuck Sparta. All five of their villages deserve abject scorn. Of all the ancient polities to idolize, America picks that one??? Naw man.

    The Romans did a lot of utterly horrid shit, but turning Sparta into a theme park, an object of mockery? Good stuff.

  170. 170.

    Subsole

    @Kalakal:

    Good and fair points. Also LOL at the changes time has wrought on the terrain.

    My target really is more the ridiculous idolization of that horrid place. Not so much Leonidas.

    I mean, Sparta looks mighty different depending on which sissytia you end up in. At least from what I understand. Good place for the Krypteia. Not so much for the Messenian.

  171. 171.

    Subsole

    @Honus:

    As Umberto Eco observed, ur-fascism teaches people to crave a hero’s death. And in his haste to die gloriously, the would-be hero very frequently inflicts what he seeks on those standing next to him…

  173. 173.

    Geminid

    @James E Powell: Despite the title you gave the NPR story,I saw nothing in it about political races this fall. I’m not sure how Covid spreading helps Republicans in November. I don’t see how it will help them in my VA-7 District race. Will it help them in your district?

  176. 176.

    Kalakal

    @Subsole:

    Herodotus wasn’t fit to hold Thucydides’ jock. Entertaining fellow, but…yeah.

    Lol. I’m with you there. You’re right about the ridiculous way Sparta is mythologised, it always amuses me to think about just how well the fanboys who’s default mode is a whiny “I will not comply” would get on in a hyper militarised, totally socially stratified polis that tolerated zero dissent at any level of society. Also how well they’d do on a diet of black broth.

  177. 177.

    Subsole

    @Kalakal:

    I mean, I found it instructive that the instant most Greeks were exposed to Spartan governors, they asked for the Delian League back…

  180. 180.

    Subsole

    @Geminid: I was not prepared to laugh at this as hard as I did.

    I can now see Diogenes giving Plato all kinds of shit over his proclamations in support of it…

  181. 181.

    Kay

    @James E Powell:

    The religious far Right are near-hysterical over vaccines. I listen to their radio stations sometimes while driving and it has increased to the point where it’s all they talk about. This past week the announcer’s voice was breaking as he described mandates as illegal under the Geneva Conventions. So that’s what the far Right court is responding to. If they track anything they track the religous Right.

    They’ve come up with this odd new (to me) objection to vaccines – that a vaccine can’t be “reversed”. There’s a lot of focus on that, that whatever they’re imagining this vaccine doing it is “permanent”. I think they have to come up with these distinctions because obviously a lot of them are receiving modern medical care and taking all kinds of prescription drugs, etc. and they don’t depict any of that as “can’t be reversed!” so they’ve made this new scary category.

  182. 182.

    Kay

    @James E Powell:

    I met a woman last week whose mother was hospitalized with covid, on a vent, released to a nursing home to recover and then eventually home. She’s not well but she survived. In the course of the hospitalization she received 27 different drugs or infusions of one kind or another- they were just throwing everything at it to try to keep her alive.

    “IN YOUR BODY! Can’t be reversed!” Not a concern with whatever they were pumping into her over the course of that ordeal, I guess.

  183. 183.

    StringOnAStick

    @Kay: I guess that explains some of the crazy crap out there about how to “reverse the vaccine” a few weeks ago.

  184. 184.

    Kalakal

    @Geminid: Lol! Now Sybaris is a place I would have liked to visit*. away I don’t think there was anybody who actually wanted to live a Spartan lifestyle and that includes the Spartans if they could get far enough away. Lysander came in for a hell of a lot of criticism for his lifestyle even as he was finally winning the Peleponnesian war

    or it may have been just because he was shifty as all getout

    *As long as I was a member of the nobility of course.

  185. 185.

    Kay

    @StringOnAStick:

    It’s funny because I’ve been lucky enough not to take a lot of prescription drugs but I don’t have a clue how any of them work. If you asked me to describe how an antibiotic works I can’t do it. Can it be “reversed”? Well, I don’t know. I assume it just sort of goes away. Or not! Don’t know. But “reversal” played no part at all in my decision to take it.

  186. 186.

    Sebastian

    @Subsole:

    You know the best thing? The Spartans were actually only good at PR and upholding a myth because they got their asses kicked all the time but in many battles were they fought together with others they insisted to have the right most position in the line up of units because each side would put their best unit there and so the Spartans would always face the weakest enemy unit.

    I think I have the link still somewhere.

  187. 187.

    Sebastian

    @Jeffro:

    That’s how it all started. Got a whole continent, with farms and orchards and everything but it was rugged individualism!

  190. 190.

    Lacuna Synecdoche

    @Roger Moore: ​

    I think the people around Trump may be difficult to turn. They seem to have bought into the criminal code of silence.

    Maybe. But I suspect a lot of Trump’s sycophants will be thinking less “Omerta” and more “Oh, merde.” Especially when their lawyers describe the sentences the minions facing.

    Granted, some of the more militaristic followers might pride themselves on their ability to hold out against legal pressure, but political sycophants aren’t widely known for their resolve.

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