Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Speaker Mike Johnson is a vile traitor to the House and the Constitution.

Oh FFS you might as well trust a 6-year-old with a flamethrower.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

When we show up, we win.

Everything is totally normal and fine!!!

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

Roe is not about choice. It is about freedom.

Relentless negativity is not a sign that you are more realistic.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

… gradually, and then suddenly.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

Of course you can have champagne before noon. That’s why orange juice was invented.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

“Perhaps I should have considered other options.” (head-desk)

“woke” is the new caravan.

Trumpflation is an intolerable hardship for every American, and it’s Trump’s fault.

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Wednesday Morning Open Thread: Ukraine, Russia, and Us

Wednesday Morning Open Thread: Ukraine, Russia, and Us

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I stand with Ukraine, and thank all the gods President Biden is the guy in the White House right now.

Reader Interactions

200Comments

  1. 1.

    NotMax

    Upcoming TCM remembrance of Sidney Poitier. All times Eastern.

    Saturday, February 19th:
    “In the Heat of the Night” (8:00 p.m.)
    “The Defiant Ones (10:00 p.m.)
    “A Warm December” (Midnight)
    .
    Sunday, February 20:
    “Cry, the Beloved Country” (2:00 a.m.)
    “Something of Value” (4:00 a.m.)
    “Good-bye, My Lady” (6:15 a.m.)
    “Edge of the City” (8:15 a.m.)
    “No Way Out” (10:00 a.m.)
    “Blackboard Jungle: (Noon)
    To Sir, with Love” (2:00 p.m.)
    “Lilies of the Field” (4:00 p.m.)
    “A Patch of Blue” (6:00 p.m.)
    .

  4. 4.

    Baud

    I feel like Biden deprived a whole lot of the usual suspects of their canned anti-U.S./anti-Dem talking points.

    Anyway, no war > war, so hopefully Putin will back down.

  5. 5.

    OzarkHillbilly

    when Biden ended war in Afghanistan it was bad news for him
    if Putin starts a war in Ukraine it’s bad news for Biden

    SNAFU.

  7. 7.

    mikefromArlington

    What’s the saying?

    US doesn’t negotiate with terrorists?

    Russia are clearly terrorists in this matter.

  8. 8.

    Peale

    Jury duty done. Glad I didn’t freak out and go for the deferment, since the future won’t be any easier to schedule around than the present. And glad I didn’t freak out and cancel everything for the next few weeks. I just freaked out and did nothing and it worked out anyway.

    I’ll be relieved if we can get through the Ukraine situation the same way. In the end, I think it costs Putin more to stage these things than it does for us to sell and transfer arms to Ukraine.

  10. 10.

    sdhays

    I still can’t wrap my mind around how anyone can speak/write the words “inflaming tensions” when not talking about the country that put 100/150k troops on the border of a country it invaded in 2014 and has been occupying for the last 6 years.

    It’s one thing to be critical of the US response, but IT IS A RESPONSE to a massive build up to invasion. Was everyone, Biden especially, supposed to just pretend it wasn’t happening?

  13. 13.

    Baud

    @sdhays: 

    Like I said, some people wanted the U.S. to be the bad guy, and rather than update their talking points to deal with reality, they adjusted their reality to match their talking points.

  14. 14.

    Peale

    @Baud: I think I need to pay attention to who was saying what, so the next time this happens, I know who to filter out right away. Like after Afghanistan, I’ve decided that I will never pay attention to Richard Engle again on his supposed area of expertise. In this case, the DSA has actually shown me that it needs to come up with a better foreign policy ideas than “The US is always wrong and the sooner the country collapses the better.”

  16. 16.

    Baud

    @Peale: I’m sad to say I didn’t see a lot of good things coming out of the left on this issue.  The few takes I saw from Corbyn in UK were dreadful.  I hope it’s just a feature of my bubble.

    ETA: I have long ago set my information filter to kill.

  18. 18.

    Fair Economist

    Biden’s relentless exposure of Russian plans – first of the propaganda plans, now of the timing – has at least delayed Putin’s invasion. Now the question is whether it’s just delayed or whether it will be canceled.

  24. 24.

    Soprano2

    @sdhays: Was everyone, Biden especially, supposed to just pretend it wasn’t happening?

    According to today’s Republicans, Biden should be helping Russia, because Russia “has a point”! People who didn’t live through the Cold War don’t know how absolutely astounding it is now to hear any American, let alone conservative Republicans, taking Russia’s side in anything.

  25. 25.

    Another Scott

    @p.a.: I heard a bit of Here and Now (I think it was) on the radio yesterday afternoon, and the host/reporter guy was prefacing an answer by mentioning the “Disaster” of the Kabul evacuation.

    [click]

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  26. 26.

    New Deal democrat

    @Baud:
    “‘has handled.’ I don’t think it’s quite over yet.  Russia needs to actually withdraw its troops.”

    Agreed. Putin has already played his hand well, because he is at very least going to get real concessions from the West and Ukraine without ever having a soldier place a foot in that country. But Biden has also reacted well, probably forcing Putin to adjust his plans, and reinvigorated NATO for the foreseeable future.

    By no means are we out of the woods yet. Yesterday Russia’s Parliament voted to formally recognize the breakaway governments of eastern Ukraine, guaranteeing a very easy causus belli now or in the future. NATO is almost certainly going to have to move more troops into its easternmost member States to counter the threat, which also increases the odds of an armed confrontation in the future.

    And a part of me continues to wonder: why didn’t Putin do this when Trump was President? And also, I hope Biden has insisted on a very thorough debriefing of the interpreter who was present during the Helsinki summit.

  30. 30.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @New Deal democrat: I don’t agree that Putin has played this well.  Nato is, as you said, reinvigorated and strongly opposed.  He faces a climbdown or an invasion that will be bloody and expensive.  His excuses to invade look like Gleiwitz on steroids and were exposed to international scrutiny almost before he offered them.  I think he underestimated the US commitment to Nato and Nato’s essential strength.  We will see how it plays out, but, right now, I don’t see Putin as a winner.

  31. 31.

    Hoodie

    @New Deal democrat: Seems likely that Putin will up insurgent support/instigation in eastern Ukraine and try to create an incident supporting an incursion there.  He didn’t need the big buildup elsewhere to do that, maybe some of that was a show to distract from the unrest in Belarus (it sure deflected attention from that).   The threat of a major invasion of Ukraine was a likely a bluff, but Putin will continue to cause chaos in Ukraine, hoping the West will lose interest once he’s pulled back from a major invasion.  As to why he didn’t do all of this when Trump was in office, it wasn’t necessary, i.e.,  why interrupt your opponent when he’s screwing up just fine  on his own?

  34. 34.

    MattF

    Putin holds to the Russian version of the Monroe Doctrine: events in the Russian ‘near abroad’ are very much Russian national security concerns and have always been throughout Russian history. And, back in the day, the US took the Monroe Doctrine very seriously— it’s fair to ask why and how that changed.

  35. 35.

    Baud

    @MattF:

    And, back in the day, the US took the Monroe Doctrine very seriously— it’s fair to ask why and how that changed.

    We got better.

  38. 38.

    topclimber

    Russian Parliament calls for recognition of occupied areas in Ukraine. Next day, Putin describes “genocide” happening to Russian speaking residents in the area.

    Perhaps the move will be actual Russian troops in the areas they control. Right now it is just little green men (Russians dressed up as Ukrainians), right?

    Is this the kind of “minor incursion” Biden was talking about a few weeks ago, when he allowed that maybe NATO wasn’t united on its approach if it happened?

  41. 41.

    topclimber

    @Another Scott: ​TBH, the disaster is that we no longer have an army bogged down in the MidEast when we are confronting Russia. That’s what the neocon mindset seems to hold.

  42. 42.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @topclimber: Yes, pulling out of Afghanistan was not the US pulling out of its international commitments and turning isolationist that many thought it was.

  43. 43.

    Kay

    Pennsylvania is having a trial on school funding. The American Enterprise Institute presented an “expert witness”. Then the fun really started:

    Eden acknowledged a dual role at AEI; in addition to his research role, he is the director of AEI’s Conservative Education Reform Network. And he acknowledged holding “some pretty strong views” and using “some pretty adversarial terms” when Cantor showed him several of his recent tweets.
    He agreed he had posted a tweet saying that that the term “teachers union” is a misnomer and that they should be called “K-12 Cartels that hold children hostage for ransom.” He also acknowledged and said he regretted another tweet referenced by Cantor, which suggested that teachers who teach about gender identity may be doing so because they’re trying to “groom” children for molestation.

    This was before it was revealed the AEI “expert” had not read the Urban Institute study he used to justify not funding schools, because the Urban Institute Study concludes the opposite, but you have to read to page 17 to find that out.

    It’s just junk. Day after day at this trial every Right wing witness is a clown. They’re all low quality hires. The think tanks are an employment program for otherwise unemployable people. It’s like there is so much money sloshing around on the grifter Right they can’t shovel it into the bullshit funnel fast enough. They’ll hire anyone and say anything because who cares? They have money to burn.

  44. 44.

    citizen dave

    Been thinking about Adam’s “Ukraine has Agency” excellent post .  Ukraine needs to join NATO NOW, NATO troops to Ukraine now.  Let’s get it on, Vlad!  You will lose and your regime will be over.

  45. 45.

    Peale

    @Baud: It was actually nice to go through a crisis like this and not have Trump hand Germany and invoice and threaten to stop importing their cars. I can only imagine what he would try to extort from Poland.

  46. 46.

    Betty Cracker

    @Omnes Omnibus: Agree with all the points you made. If Putin pulls back, I guess that could be interpreted as playing his hand well, but only in the sense that he stacked the deck with nothing but bad options and then took the least bad one…

  48. 48.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @p.a.: Another day of the MSM’s heads: Republicans win, tails: Democrats lose charade.  It never ends…

    I am thinking it’s more like the pundits are upset that Biden isn’t following their advice since the pundit’s mad Hearts of Iron scores show they are the expert, after all they conquered the Soviet Union as Romania.

  53. 53.

    topclimber

    @Baud: ​
    It has been expanded to include actions of foreign corporations deemed harmful to the US, to justify American intervention in Latin American internal affairs(Haiti, Cuba, Venezeula, Grenada), and was reinvoked by Trump after Kerry renounced it in 2013. You can read about it in Wikipedia.

    Keep in mind that the Monroe Doctrine accumulated uses by the likes of TR that have made it an image of America dictating to countries in the region rather than to European powers.

  55. 55.

    Peale

    @Kay: Oh cancel culture. Can’t even tell no jokes about gays wanting to be teachers because they want to molest boys any longer without it insulting someone. And these woke people always dig through tweets from way back, when it was o.k. to make such jokes, which is so unfair. Like this tweet was almost six months ago. Time to move on…

  56. 56.

    The Moar You Know

    And the people living in those regions have no say in the matter, I guess.

    @zhena gogolia: The US funded the deaths of well over a million people and the violent overthrow of most of the governments  in Latin America thanks to a hellish mixture of the Monroe Doctrine and anti-communist “containment”.

    We also destroyed Canada’s nascent defense industry – quietly, and paid off anyone important who would holler about it – in the same time period for the same reasons, boy, now there’s a topic that never gets discussed.

    From the North Pole to the Cape, nobody got any say in any of this at all.

  57. 57.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    Look at how well versed he is in bullshitting his way through questions:

    Eden explained his omission of the second chart, which began on page 17 of the Urban Institute study: “I tend to not necessarily to read towards table A2 in a given study when there is the top-line finding that is graphically represented in multiple forms … which suggests that that’s the finding that they believe to be most important.”

    He tends not to necessarily read.

  59. 59.

    Baud

    @topclimber: Everything Trump said was a lie, so I discount that.  But I was surprised to learn that Kerry formally abandoned it under Obama.  Thanks for that pointer.

    ETA:
    Anyway, we here don’t support aggressive U.S. foreign interventions, so no one here should be saying Russia can do it.

  62. 62.

    NotMax

    Repeated from late last night because it’s such a puzzlement.

    As y’all may be aware, there were some fraudulent charges made to a credit card about which I received a call from the card company. Called them back, upshot being that account number was cancelled and a new card sent out.

    Received the replacement card in the mail February 14. Called to activate it Monday night Hawaii time, then went online and changed to the new account number at places where I maintain recurring charges Seems bog standard, right?

    Now is when it gets Twilight Zone-ish.

    Today – the 15th – received a fresh call from the card fraud office about ANOTHER charge attempted, using the NEW account number, said attempt made (charge was declined) on the 13th – a full day BEFORE I even received the new card and BEFORE it had been activated. This one was involved some type of concern selling booze in Philadelphia.

    And now that BRAND NEW account number has been cancelled and yet another card is being sent.

  64. 64.

    Baud

    @topclimber: I have not heard it invoked as such in recent memory.  Since at least WWII, our foreign interventions have not be confined to the Western Hemisphere, so I assumed other doctrines superceded the Monroe Doctrine.

  66. 66.

    guachi

    @Kay: LOL.

    That level of carelessness is the level I’d take when discussing something online. Pull up study, peruse it, reply.

    What does he think this is, Reddit?

  68. 68.

    Baud

    @NotMax:

    Wonder if someone is selling randomly generated credit card info.  I don’t know how else your number got out there before you received it.

  70. 70.

    NotMax

    Double post above because who knows why?

    @Siubhan Duinne

    Worth it to me to lay out the extra few clams a month to get TCM with the add-on Hollywood Extra package over and above the regular monthly fee for Sling. Not necessarily locked into watching TCM in real time either, as that price includes access to a rotating roster of several dozen titles on demand. And enough other movie channels come with basic Sling (I chose the Sling Blue package) to scratch the cinema itch.

  71. 71.

    Betty Cracker

    @Gin & Tonic: Right, which precludes it from joining NATO if I understand the terms correctly. I think you’ve said this is more about the EU than NATO. That sounds about right to me.

  72. 72.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @NotMax:

    i live in a place that provides what TV there is. I have no say in the matter at the moment. That will change in a few weeks when I move. First thing I’ll do is make sure I get a package that includes TCM and several C-SPANs.

  74. 74.

    Baud

    Biden orders release of Trump White House logs to Congress

    …..

    In a letter sent Monday to the National Archives, White House counsel Dana Remus said Biden had considered Trump’s claim that because he was president at the time of the attack on the U.S. Capitol, the records should remain private, but decided that it was “not in the best interest of the United States” to do so.

    I assume Trump will sue.

  76. 76.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @NotMax:

    That might mean that there might be negative security consequences to channeling operational data to business centers located on the other side of the world on the basis of the lowest cost subcontractors, the work to be done by a populace that earns a fraction of the industrialized world’s wages.

    You’d think that expensively trained MBAs in nice suits could have figured that out on their own.

  79. 79.

    Another Scott

    @NotMax: I’m no expert, and I haven’t seen a link describing something like this, but it might be something like this:

    • Scammer knew your previous number worked, then it didn’t.
    • Scammer knew the usual process of issuing a new number – likely only the last few digits get incremented by some amount, and the expiration date gets updated.  There are only a few digits in the CVV and lots of places don’t ask for it.
    • Scammer makes some educated guesses, tries new numbers via a set of test purchases until something works.

    Dunno.

    For a while I would be very suspicious because if I hadn’t used PayPal for a while, did so, then I would suddenly started getting lots of weird fake e-mails from places claiming to be PayPal.  So far, nothing bad has happened, but…  The financial web is complicated and there’s much too much data flying around.  :-(

    Good luck!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  80. 80.

    prostratedragon

    Today’s American grave at LGM is that of violinist Billy Bang. I see from Erik’s account that he and I are at one remove of acquaintance. Back in the mid-70s the s.o. and I met Billy through a friend and neighbor, another avant-garde musician named Charles Tyler (d.1991). Billy had a great urgency about him. He’d been studying violin as Erik describes, and wanted to filter his Vietnam experiences into music. He and the s.o., also a Vietnam vet and a sergeant, but in the Marines, had some good talks about it. Must have been not long before Billy joined Sun Ra, which as some may know means that he practically disappeared from the everyday world for a while.

    They’re all gone now.

  81. 81.

    daveNYC

    Daniel Hannan seems like a moron.  T-72s are so last century.  T-14s and T-90s are the current hotness.

  82. 82.

    Cameron

    @Kay: People who aren’t in PA can be fooled by looking at the Governor/Lieutenant Governor and Philadelphia/Pittsburgh.  State legislature is very different.  If you travel around the state, you find a lot of political and cultural variety, not all of it particularly wholesome.

  83. 83.

    Ruckus

    @Peale:

    Showed up for jury duty once and found out it was a murder case, special jury. We waited about 2 hrs and then they said the guy pleaded out, thanks, see you next time. Not sure I wanted to be on that jury, they were expecting a bit of a trial.  Would have been my second jury duty in about 3 yrs. I’m thinking the jury pool was a bit too small.

  85. 85.

    J R in WV

    @NotMax: ​
     

    Today – the 15th – received a fresh call from the card fraud office about ANOTHER charge attempted, using the NEW account number, said attempt made (charge was declined) on the 13th – a full day BEFORE I even received the new card and BEFORE it had been activated. This one was involved some type of concern selling booze in Philadelphia.

    And now that BRAND NEW account number has been cancelled and yet another card is being sent.

    Sounds like the terrorist is inside their house? Can’t be any other answer.

    Perhaps change your credit card provider? or at least talk about that with their management. Internal fraud department should be involved, if they have such a dept. If they don’t all the more reason to change your provider… Def Twilight Zone material!!

  86. 86.

    Jay

    @citizen dave:

    Ukraine can’t join NATO now.

    Article 5 bars nations that have unresolved border disputes from joining, and aside from Lugansk, Donbass and Crimea, Ukraine still has unresolved border issues with Poland, Hungary,  Czechoslovakia and that stupid little Soviet state to the south.

    NATO also requires that a State that want’s to be a member, have a compatible Military in training, tactics and equipment, which Ukraine is at least 5 years away from.

    On the other hand, Canada has gone from donating “non-lethal” military aid to the Ukraine Military, to donating lethal aid, ( weapons and systems),

    Donating, not selling.

  87. 87.

    Soprano2

    @Benw: It’s so insane to me. Almost my whole life it’s been just a fact that Russia was our biggest opponent in the world. Seeing Republicans embrace them – well, as Adam says, we’re off the edge and into the looking glass!

  88. 88.

    Ruckus

    @sdhays:

    It’s one thing to be critical of the US response, but IT IS A RESPONSE to a massive build up to invasion. Was everyone, Biden especially, supposed to just pretend it wasn’t happening?

    This is conservative politics/news “journalism”. Always blame the other guys. It’s an obvious ploy to keep their side on edge and enlightened in the dark. And besides they are used to blaming everyone else for every failure they have, which is their normal mode of operation.

    Conservative Rules:

    1 Whatever you do or say, be stupid. (It may just be that they really are stupid.)

    2 Whatever you want is better than what the other side wants because it makes money. (They really aren’t about what’s good and proper, they think money is the end all be all of life.)

    3 Say stupid shit, no one on their side will notice. (Actually the stupider the response the more likely the sheep will agree.)

    4 Never ever agree with liberals, no matter what. (Agreeing means that everything they have ever done or said is wrong, and they can’t be wrong, just ask them.) (They are after all, mentally about 5 yrs old, have the outlook and obvious limitations of never having grown up past that and have decided that being 5 is cool, so never will grow up.)

    5. That’s all they’ve got. (Fucking simpletons)

  89. 89.

    trollhattan

    All without sending a single T-72 into Ukrainian-held territory.

    I note the adroit(?) wording here, tiptoeing around the fact that heavily armed Russians and their insurgents currently hold Ukrainian territory. Did that happen under Biden’s watch? What has he lost if the pending further invasion proves to be a non-invasion. Guess that’s why I’m not a diplomat.

  90. 90.

    Soprano2

    @NotMax: Wow, that is bizarre.  Hubby had to cancel his Discover card in December because he lost it; someone picked it up and charged Door Dash on it. He cancelled that card and got a new one by the beginning of January. Here’s where it gets weird – I got an e-mail on Sunday that someone had charged Door Dash – on the old card number! It appeared that Discover OK’d that charge! When I called them to ask why they were so stupid as to allow a charge on a cancelled card, they insisted on talking to my husband, at which point I hung up on them. It shouldn’t have been necessary for them to talk to him to answer my simple question – why are you allowing a charge on a CANCELLED CARD? Geez…..

  94. 94.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Omnes Omnibus: I don’t agree that Putin has played this well.  Nato is, as you said, reinvigorated and strongly opposed.  He faces a climbdown or an invasion that will be bloody and expensive.

    This.

    Also, Biden played his hand well, and our intel people demonstrated their value by giving him some good cards to play that weren’t visible when this thing began.

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    @citizen dave: No, Nato has a process.  It should be followed.  We shouldn’t make decisions like that in the heat of the moment.

    Also this.

  96. 96.

    Ocotillo

    Off topic, can Biden use Trump precedent and fire Merrick Garland?

    Let’s get someone in there more aggressive.

  97. 97.

    Old School

    @Soprano2:

    why are you allowing a charge on a CANCELLED CARD? Geez…..

    I don’t know that it is that uncommon.  Last summer, we had to replace a credit card after fraudulent charges showed up on it.  Just this week, I had to update my credit card information on a monthly charge that I had neglected to update with the card change.  So the charge was going through for months on the cancelled number.

  99. 99.

    sdhays

    @Omnes Omnibus: We don’t know what “concessions” Russia is going to get, either. I suspect they’ll be something he could have gotten without mobilizing the Russian military.

  100. 100.

    ian

    @Ocotillo:

    I will bite.  Who do you want as attorney general, and what is it you want them to do?  Can you provide more specifics than ‘be aggressive?’

  101. 101.

    carcin

    @daveNYC:

    The bulk of the Russian armored force are T-72B3s, a modernized and upgraded variant (circa 2013) that is perfectly capable on the contemporary battlefield.

    But yes, the guy is an idiot…

  102. 102.

    citizen dave

    I appreciate the restrained and educational posts about my uninformed idea that Ukraine should join NATO ASAP.  Really I just want to see Vlad dethroned, however it happens.  Seems like so much MSM is always “What will Putin do” like we’re afraid.  Well, as Payton Manning would sometimes point out, the other side is on scholarship too.

  104. 104.

    Cermet

    @MattF: LOL; it has never changed – we still decide what really happens in Central and South America. Remember Raygun and his dirty war in Nicaragua? We still intervene if we feel our interests are threaten.

    Putin NEVER underestimated NATO’s military strength – he knows full well NATO is vastly more powerful then his forces.

    Russia is and remains our sole real enemy – they have the vast arsenals of nukes pointed at us (and we, at them with ours.)

    Now, should we allow Ukraine into NATO? Frankly, no. NATO’s sole purpose is to threaten Russia and exposing Russia’s most vulnerable region to the NATO military would be game over for Russia if it wanted to actually be an independent nation not beholding to Amerika.

    Just hope this doesn’t turn into an invasion – we’d lose, Europe would lose, Russia would lose, Ukraine would be devastated, and tRump would win big time come 2024.

  105. 105.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    @Baud: “Biden orders release of Trump White House logs to Congress”

     

    …and as an added bonus, using a highlighter to show the treasons also, too.

  106. 106.

    Soprano2

    @Old School: Well then that’s dumb of the credit card company, because of course they aren’t getting paid for that. That’s probably right though, because the slant of the e-mail was “don’t forget to update you credit card information with vendors”. We don’t even use DoorDash!

  108. 108.

    ian

    @Cermet:

     NATO’s sole purpose is to threaten Russia

    NATO’s purpose is to defend the alliance members from attack. It was collectively mobilized for Afghanistan after 9/11.  Try harder.

  109. 109.

    jonas

    @Soprano2: If it takes embracing a Russian dictator to pwn the libs, they’ll do it. Republicans don’t do anything related to governing or having principles any more — it’s just a game of trolling 24/7 now. Cleek’s Law on steroids.

  110. 110.

    Kay

    Kolleen@littlewhitty·17h
    A public school in Indiana is giving parents the option to opt their children out of learning about Black History Month.

    It’s so sad and also obviously discriminatory. They aren’t given the “option” on any other history- just black history.
    Conservatives are terrified children will find out what happened in their own country. It’s along the same lines about how they’re incredibly defensive about religion and insist everyone is “attacking” it.
    If they actually believed “white history” was strong, resilient, infallible, would they work so hard to prop it up? It’s just lame and embarrassing.

  111. 111.

    Roger Moore

    @sdhays:

    It’s one thing to be critical of the US response, but IT IS A RESPONSE to a massive build up to invasion. Was everyone, Biden especially, supposed to just pretend it wasn’t happening?

    The whole thing is a prime example of the operating theory of the US media: only the US has agency on the world stage, and only the Democrats have agency within the US.  If anything bad happens in the world, it must be because the US (meaning the Democrats) screwed up.  It can’t be because other countries are doing things related to their interests.

  113. 113.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Snarki, child of Loki:…and as an added bonus, using a highlighter to show the treasons also, too.

    I miss read that as “show the treasures” because they had to put Trump’s agenda for the day on a children’s restaurant menu to keep Trump’s attention.

    Gods, the National Archives showing some chewed up cartoon path that ends in a treasure box marked “treason” is way to believable with Trump.

  115. 115.

    cain

    @Hoodie: As to why he didn’t do all of this when Trump was in office, it wasn’t necessary, i.e., why interrupt your opponent when he’s screwing up just fine on his own?

    That doesn’t make sense to me. Why is Ukraine strategic now and not back then? They could have taken Ukraine while the U.S. was engaged in self immolation. Is the goal to have Ukraine or not? If it’s just a piece in a chess board – then there is some other game afoot.

  116. 116.

    CaseyL

    @Roger Moore: Not to mention the RW response to “Russiagate,” like it was all a scam designed to defeat Trump.  There were numerous contacts between the Trump Campaign and Russian government officials: was the US supposed to ignore those?

  118. 118.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    I think they’ve been sending them to the library when conservative parents submit the list of required school activities their children won’t be taking part in.

    It ruins the whole thing, which was the intent. They want to make it so risky to talk about black people, so fraught with conflict, that schools give up and kowtow to the demands of the loud Right wing bullies.

    Just a joyless, grim sorting process, layered with exceptions and endless demands for more and more “rights” until, exhausted, schools just give up.

  119. 119.

    Yarrow

    @Ocotillo:

    Off topic, can Biden use Trump precedent and fire Merrick Garland?

    Christ. Not this again. Sure, he can. It’s a terrible idea. Which is why he won’t do it.

    Let’s get someone in there more aggressive.

    First of all, just because Garland isn’t showy doesn’t mean he’s not getting the job done. Second, how in the world is this mythical “more aggressive” person going to get confirmed by the Senate? In an election year? Sure, Jan.

    Making Democrats look weak in an election year by firing the AG for no reason other than a vague complaint that he’s “not aggressive enough” and then hoping Republicans and/or Manchinema confirm his replacement before November rather than run out the clock and flip the Senate so they don’t have to. Fantastic idea.

  120. 120.

    Roger Moore

    @Jay:

    Article 5 bars nations that have unresolved border disputes from joining, and aside from Lugansk, Donbass and Crimea, Ukraine still has unresolved border issues with Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and that stupid little Soviet state to the south.

    This makes no sense.  If unresolved border issues are a bar to being a NATO member, why haven’t Ukraine’s border disputes with Poland, Slovakia (there is not Czechoslovakia anymore), and Hungary kept them from being members?

  121. 121.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    Entirely predictable:

    G. Elliott Morris@gelliottmorris · 2h
    Pretty striking: Support for mandatory vaccines in K-12 schools — not specifically on covid-19, just in general — is underwater by 9 points. 37% in favor and 46% opposed

    What all the dopes who fought against covid mitigations in schools are going to find out is that the mortality rate for the childhood diseases we’ve nearly eradicated with vaccine mandates is also low. It was never about how many kids were killed. They’ve now set this incredibly low bar- only lots and lots of dead children justify infection mitigation. That wasn’t the standard! Their new standard is a MUCH lower standard. Has to KILL THEM.

  122. 122.

    trollhattan

    @Kay:

    That’s why California has laws mandating them for public schools and further, eliminating the religious exemption. Otherwise, herd immunity never occurs. Tyranny in the form of making people do the right thing, such as driving the correct direction on the freeway.

  124. 124.

    JoyceH

    I just got a jury duty summons. Last time I just had to check in at the local courthouse and eventually got dismissed, but this is US District Court in Richmond. Whine! At least it’s for April so COVID will probably be less of a problem, but still.

  125. 125.

    jonas

    @cain: I think Putin assumed that Trump would be more effective in strong-arming Zelensky’s government into making concessions Moscow wanted. Instead Trump fucked up, said all the quiet parts out loud, and wound up getting impeached. So Plan B was use military force to either topple the government in Kyiv, or at the very least force the break up of the country and the annexation of the Dombas region to Russia. Again here Putin miscalculated the degree to which the US and NATO and the rest of the international community would push back. My hope, perhaps misguided, is that he decides it’s not worth it right now, pulls back, and claims there was never any military buildup and that it was all a smear campaign by the West, yada yada.

  126. 126.

    Yarrow

    @Kay:  A related question is how much immunity older people still have from their vaccines. If measles and whooping cough are running wild are older people still immune or do they now have to go get boosters? How about diptheria? Polio?

  127. 127.

    Freemark

    @Cermet: Nice amplification of Russian falsehoods about the purpose of NATO. The purpose of NATO is not to threaten Russia. It was originally established because Russia threatened Europe both militarily and politically. If you think Lithuania joined NATO because it wants to ‘threaten’ to invade Russia you have to pretty moronic or purposefully stupid. It joined because Russia was and is their greatest threat to their sovereignty. What Russia is doing to Ukraine proves them and Estonia, Latvia, and Poland right.

    Putin has absolutely no fear of an invasion, not even the tiniest bit. What he fears is the loss of control over his abused ‘spouses’ and how that would affect him personally.

  128. 128.

    Kay

    @trollhattan:

    I knew it would extend to all vaccinations. It never made any sense that it wouldn’t.

    “Not that many children die of German Measles!” You know it’s coming.

    Just the abject stupidity of people who are running around calling themselves “child advocates” to not even consider that this anaylsis and argument they’re using against covid mitigations applies to virtually all public health efforts to reduce transmission of all infectious disease. 

    Quarantines in day care aren’t new, as anyone who has ever used a daycare knows. Just getting rid of those? Any infection should run riot thru a daycare unless there is an actual child body count?

    Our elites are poor quality. They’re not good thinkers.

  129. 129.

    Montanareddog

    @Cermet:

     

    Remember Raygun and his dirty war in Nicaragua? We still intervene if we feel our interests are threaten.

    If you are going to argue that the US still actively interfering in the internal affairs of other American nations, try and use an example that is not from almost 40 years ago.

     

     

    NATO’s sole purpose is to threaten Russia

    That is simply, factually incorrect. NATO has always been a defensive alliance and, if you try to argue otherwise, then you are perpetuating the “only the US has agency” fallacy. No other NATO members have ever countenanced a march on Moscow.

  130. 130.

    Roger Moore

    @cain:

    My gut feeling is that the Ukraine stuff is driven by Russian internal politics.  Putin wants to distract from COVID and the economy, so he’s beating the drums of war.

  132. 132.

    CaseyL

    @Yarrow: Adults are supposed to get boosters for all of those (TDAP, MMR) every 10 years.  I got mine a few years ago and am due again in 2029.  I’m 65-almost-66.

  133. 133.

    J R in WV

    @Ocotillo:

    can Biden use Trump precedent and fire Merrick Garland?

    Let’s get someone in there more aggressive.

    This is the most stupid political thought expressed on this site — we don’t know how aggressive AG Garland is, because his DoJ doesn’t leak, which is a good thing.

  134. 134.

    Peale

    @Kay: Technically, very few people die from headlice. I’m not certain why we go through the “hygiene theater” every time there’s an outbreak at a school. Its a normal part of growing up. These public health people are such nanny staters.

  135. 135.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Cermet:

    Now, should we allow Ukraine into NATO? Frankly, no. NATO’s sole purpose is to threaten Russia and exposing Russia’s most vulnerable region to the NATO military would be game over for Russia if it wanted to actually be an independent nation not beholding to Amerika. 

    Vlad, your ass is showing.

  136. 136.

    topclimber

    @Kay: ​I hope someone is compiling a list of states and school districts refusing to teach black history, followed by a campaign to inform colleges across the country of places where they should not count high school credit for history or at least demand remedial courses for incoming students. Let’s get our commie-lefty-white-hating academy on our side!

  138. 138.

    The Moar You Know

     If measles and whooping cough are running wild are older people still immune or do they now have to go get boosters? How about diptheria? Polio?

    @Yarrow: when I went to Africa courtesy of the US military a decade ago, I had to get every single one of those plus quite a few others.  Your doctor will probably tell you that you don’t have to, and your insurer will likely not pay for it, but if I were over 65 I would get really insistent on it, and frankly if I didn’t live in CA I’d be insisting on it right now.  We didn’t mandate the shots we do because those diseases kill kids, we did it because those diseases kill Grandpa and Grandma.

  139. 139.

    catclub

    @Ocotillo: Off topic, can Biden use Trump precedent and fire Merrick Garland?

     

    Short answer: huh?

    Garland is Attorney General, nominated by Biden. Trump fired Comey, head of FBI serving 10 year term.

  141. 141.

    Old School

    @Roger Moore:

    This makes no sense.  If unresolved border issues are a bar to being a NATO member, why haven’t Ukraine’s border disputes with Poland, Slovakia (there is not Czechoslovakia anymore), and Hungary kept them from being members?

    I believe those requirements were not put into place until after Poland, Slovakia, and Hungary had joined.

  142. 142.

    topclimber

    @Montanareddog: Yet NATO supported the US effort in Afghanistan long after the immediate attackers of America (al Qaeda) were smashed. Chasing the Taliban rebels for 20 years was not obviously part of any defensive war that threatened a member state.

  143. 143.

    mrmoshpotato

    @jonas:

    Republicans don’t do anything related to governing or having principles any more 

    Oh they haven’t cared about governing for the people for over 40 years.

    Tax cuts for the rich, business deregulation, and tear holes in the social safety net.

  144. 144.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Cermet: We aren’t allowing Ukraine into NATO because:

    1) They haven’t applied
    2) They don’t fit several of the entrance criteria

    In addition, this whole question is predicated on America/NATO invading Russia, which is just fucking insane to begin with.

    Agree that an invasion would be bad, but I’m not certain how “we” lose. We’re not going to start a war there. The most we do is support Ukraine and freedom fighters with training and arms while implementing some pretty terrible sanctions on Russia. There will be caterwauling about how Biden handled this regardless of what he does, but I really don’t see how this rebounds to Trump’s benefit.

    I mean seriously. At this point right-wing propaganda is insane and has no bearing on reality. Fox is publicly saying that Biden is senile, that we should abandon Ukraine and endorse a literal invasion of a democratic country by Russia, that Biden and Trudeau “have a long standing admiration of China and its authoritarian communism”, etc. It’s nuts and I can’t see how they’d approve of literally anything Democrats do, ever.

  145. 145.

    cain

    @Baud: The so called cold war allowed for all kinds of intervention – including conflicts between two other nations that U.S. had no business butting in.

  146. 146.

    Bill Arnold

    @Roger Moore:

    Putin wants to distract from COVID and the economy, so he’s beating the drums of war.

    If Putin significantly damages Russia over Ukraine, The Bear will bite his head like a grape. (It might not be immediate or obvious.) V. Putin is not Russia, much as he tries to style himself that way.
    IMO.

  147. 147.

    Yarrow

    @CaseyL:  I’ve never once had a doctor talk about or suggest any of those boosters to me or any adult I’ve accompanied to a doctor’s appointment, which I’ve done a lot. I have not seen an ad or commercial recommending or reminding adults to do get those boosters. If it’s something adults are supposed to do it’s not discussed much.

    Contrast with flu, Covid and shingles vaccines, which I’ve seen plenty of discussion about and doctor’s have regularly asked/recommended to me and other adults.

  148. 148.

    Ocotillo

    @ian:

     

    @Yarrow:

     

    I understand the Garland is working quietly and not making a lot of noise about what is going on and that presumes he is actually doing something.

    “Trump precedent” says you don’t need the Senate to confirm, go with an acting AG.

    I don’t really want to do that but I pray to God Garland is doing something because this country cannot let Trump get away with the things he has done.

  149. 149.

    JoyceH

    Is there anything underway to authorize a second booster? I’ve seen news reports that booster effectiveness wanes after four months, so mine is already waned.

  150. 150.

    Yarrow

    @The Moar You Know:  I know people who have traveled to African countries for business who have also been sent by their employers to get some of those vaccines. I agree, it’s good to look into it.

    My point is that those boosters are not on most people’s radars. They’re not discussed, there aren’t commercials or print ads for them. There isn’t a push forpeople to get them. And, as you said, you probably have to pay out of pocket for them. If those diseases start running rampant again boosters will be essential for older adults. Who’s going to pay for that? How many people will die before it gets attention?

  151. 151.

    jonas

    @catclub: Trump also sacked AG Jeff Sessions for not doing enough to thwart the Russia investigation. You know, the one into the things that totally never, ever happened. That’s how we ended up with the very serious moderate institutionalist Bill Barr, if you recall.

  152. 152.

    Peale

    @JoyceH: Pulling for you to get US Magistrate Court when you get there. No mafia trials. No white collar fraud. When they ask you about conflicts of interest, hoping that they don’t have a list of 50 names to go through. 2. 2 is a enough.

  153. 153.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: It’s even worse, Kay. The letter says the lessons are about “equity, caring, and understanding differences”. That’s what they’re allowing parents to opt out of.

  154. 154.

    Kay

    @Peale:

    Exactly.

    I just think they’re going to find out that the childhood diseases weren’t eradicated based on how many children they killed or seriously impacted. What’s “enough”? What’s the dead kid count that justifies a public health measure?

    If your justification for your anti covid mitigation position is “liberty” it probably has to be a lot of dead kids, judging by how we completely deregulated weapons, dead kids be damned.

  157. 157.

    JoyceH

    @Peale: I’m hoping to get out of it altogether, honestly. I’ve reached the point when lack of unfettered access to a restroom is anxiety producing. There’s a form to return asking questions about have you had COVID, etc, and if you have any condition that would make COVID more dangerous – I will answer that last one with an emphatic yes. Oddly, and more anxiety producing, there was no question about vaccine status. There’s a paper about all their precautions, but whatever precautions they take, I don’t want to spend any time whatsoever indoors with unvaccinated people.

  158. 158.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    I’m still learning. I just found out MLK Jr referenced “1619” in his letter from a Birmingham jail-  references – “340 years ago”. So that’s been a part of AA US history for a long time.

  160. 160.

    Ohio Mom

    @Yarrow: Those questions are already on my list for upcoming doctors’ visits. I am guessing the answer will be, Not yet but it may come to that.

    ETA: I do get tetanus boosters every ten years, I thought most PCPs do that.

  163. 163.

    The Dangerman

    @Omnes Omnibus: I agree with you. As of now, Putin looks to have played this wrong.

    This entire episode has made me wonder if Putin thought the fix was in with the last election, i.e. he expected Trump to win because Russia was doing something to assure that result (see 2016). This would explain in part why the Republicans went to the fucking wall to keep Trump as President. Sure, that is the way things work, but the Right tried some fucked up, whacked out, kooky shit that, if it had succeeded, would have torn this country apart.

  164. 164.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Soprano2:

    This crap comes from people who thought the AG should arrest Trump on January 21st, 2021. They’re mad that didn’t happen.

    and who seem to forget about the whole thing about trials and judges and defense lawyers and juries and appeals and whatnot

  165. 165.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    The conservative parents are really cheating themselves, because there is nothing children like to discuss more than issues of “fairness”. They have elaborate, detailed opinions on all the aspects of fairness. They are the fair police :)

    I do mediations with delinquent juveniles (and I love fairness too!) so I had to add it to the intro. If I didn’t they were raising it anyway. It’s their favorite subject.

  166. 166.

    Soprano2

    @Yarrow: I got a measles booster in 2019 because I had read that people who got the shots in the late 60’s/early 70’s might not be immune anymore. I had my doc test me and sure enough, I wasn’t immune anymore.

  168. 168.

    Ocotillo

    @J R in WV:  Thanks, I always appreciate superlatives.

    I am glad he is a by the book guy but excuse me for being concerned nothing is happening.

    And no, was not on here wanting Trump arrested on Jan 21, I rarely post.

    I hope you folks are right.  The clock is ticking and the anti-democratic forces have all the momentum at the moment.

  169. 169.

    Soprano2

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Also they forget that if you come at someone like TFG, you’d better not miss, because you’ll probably only get one chance. Better to take some time building as airtight of a case as possible than to go off half-cocked just because you want to see TFG in handcuffs.

  170. 170.

    J R in WV

    @Kay:

    Also, Black History is in large part the history of white people doing horrible things to black people, from the slave trade to Jim Crow lynching for fun. Pretty horrible stuff to learn about your ancestors. But necessary for truth.

  172. 172.

    Soprano2

    @Ocotillo: I’d rather he take the time to get it right rather than arrest TFG just to please Democrats. You and others like you confuse leaking with strength. It’s good that the AG’s office doesn’t leak like a sieve.

  173. 173.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: Oh, I remember being like that. I’m still that way, a little bit, but I’m old enough to have learned that everything isn’t and can’t be fair all the time. Most kids have a finely-honed sense of that kind of justice.

  174. 174.

    stacib

    @Baud: When I was in high school (mid 70s), we couldn’t take African American history until we had exhausted all of the other history courses.  Most folks didn’t know until their junior / senior year which was too late, so many of the students in our 99% black high school was not allowed to take this class.

  175. 175.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Ocotillo: the key to defeating trumpism, leaving trump himself on the side for the moment, has always been political, not the criminal justice system. If trump dropped dead tomorrow, there would still be DeSantis and Hawley and Haley and….  The January 6 commission has, in my never humble opinion, played their cards very well. I’m not betting the farm on the upcoming hearings, but they offer a much better chance of pushing back the tide than criminal trials that will take many months, and have much higher burdens of proof, and more opportunities for the bad guys with limitless resources and friendly judges to throw up roadblocks.

  176. 176.

    dr. luba

    What’s up with Greg Palast?  His most recent newsletter/post supported the Russian position in Ukraine, claiming that they were just trying to protect Russian Orthodox believers form those evil Ukrainians:

    “Moscow Orthodox Patriarch Kyrill wants to protect his Ukrainian followers from decades of religious persecution from the other Orthodox sects. The United Nations reports that the Greek and Kyiv Orthodox have killed at least 3,000 Russian Orthodox civilians, including many children, and counting.”

    Say what?

    And then went on about how unoccupied Ukraine has few Muslims, so Ukraine is somehow anti-Muslim, but somehow hasn’t noticed that the Russian occupiers of Crimea keep arresting and disappearing Tatar activists. It doesn’t help that he can’t seem to tell the Donbas and Crimea apart….

    I haven’t actually read him in ages, and have now unsubscribed.  I don’t need to read more Putin apologists.  Useless leftists…….

  179. 179.

    J R in WV

    @Kay: ​
     

    Our elites are poor quality. They’re not good thinkers.

    No one who advocates against vaccinations of the whole population can be called elite in any way, shape or form. They demonstrate that they are arrogant stupid people suffering from Dunning-Kruger syndrome. Morans. And evil also, too, willing to kill people for a political point, even little kids.

    I’m agreeing with you here, not arguing with you at all. I can sometimes recognize sarcasm…

  182. 182.

    dr. luba

    @Ohio Mom:

    I do get tetanus boosters every ten years, I thought most PCPs do that.

    Good ones will do that.  And make sure you are up-to-date on pneumonia, shingles, flu…..

  183. 183.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @dr. luba: The Russian Orthodox Church is reactionary central in Russia.  Homophobic, misogynist, and xenophobic.  Muscovy forever!

  185. 185.

    Roger Moore

    @Gin & Tonic:

    The Wikipedia articles on the Polish-Ukrainian and Slovakian-Ukrainian borders don’t mention any disputes.  The article on Ukraine’s borders in general does mention a dispute between Ukraine and Romania over an island at the mouth of the Danube.  That says the dispute over the island itself has been resolved, but there’s still a dispute over the exclusive economic zone around it.

  186. 186.

    Roger Moore

    @Soprano2:

    My employer recently required me to test for antibodies to chickenpox and mumps to prove that I had either had them or was successfully vaccinated.  I tested positive for both, so I didn’t need any kind of booster.

  187. 187.

    Gravenstone

    @Kay: “Not that many children die of German Measles!”

    This is giving me flashbacks to the pamphlets they handed out in second grade (circa 1969) about the need to get vaccinated for rubella because it could cause birth defects if the mother caught it while pregnant. I guess these antivax morons want a resurgence in that, if the direct threat to their own children isn’t enough of a deterrent.

  189. 189.

    topclimber

    @dr. luba: I was curious why he doesn’t link to the UN Report about killings by Orthodox factions until I googled and found out the 3,000 the UN mentions are ALL civilian casualties in the conflict to date. Nothing about religious-targeted killings.

    It seems if you are Russian orthodox and walk on a mine planted by God knows who, you are a victim of religious warfare perpetrated by those damn Greeks. Or if you are collateral damage in a cross fire, any bullets in you must have been fired by folks who don’t like your religion.

    I never heard of this guy Palast before and hope never to again. What a jerk.

  190. 190.

    dr. luba

    @Gravenstone: OBs test all pregnant women for rubella status at the beginning of pregnancy.  The vaccine is contraindicated during pregnancy, but we will vaccinate right after birth if needed.

    Women who are planning a pregnancy will have testing recommended to them if they have a good doctor.

    Most women of childbearing age are immune, as they were vaccinated in their youth.  But immunity can wane.

  191. 191.

    dr. luba

    @topclimber: He’s an investigative journalist who’s done some good work in corporate malfeasance and election safety, and has worked with labor unions and consumer advocacy groups.

    But he doesn’t seem to have done any due diligence here.  Much like the late Stephen Cohen and other lefties who don’t seem aware that Russia is no longer a socialist workers’ paradise (not that it ever was…..)

  192. 192.

    Ruckus

    @Kay:

    Maybe that’s the process that should be used. Let the conservatives take their kids out of school. An 18 yr old who has zero schooling isn’t going to have much of a career as, well anything. Sure they will have to be housed and fed and they won’t be able to take care of their parents when said parents get old and need a bit of assistance but it does seem to be what the parents want for their kids, to be blindingly stupid and racist.

  193. 193.

    Ruckus

    @Kay:

    Our elites are poor quality. They’re not good thinkers.

    Thinking?    Have you been drinking?

    They don’t think, certainly not about any other living soul besides their financial advisor, their stock broker and their banker(s). Money is their guiding light, having more of it is their holy grail.

  196. 196.

    Lum’s Better Half

    @dr. luba: Also, a number of these childhood infections can cause sterility when contracted by young adults. You would think that would get more attention in certain quarters.

  197. 197.

    sab

    @NotMax: Thank you. My birthday is around then so I am going to claim the remote for a couple of days. Spouse won’t mind that much…he’s a Poitier fan.

  199. 199.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Baud: Pretty damned easy. Specific subject matter just doesn’t get taught, that how those regressive policies are implemented. How many high school history classes teach about the Vietnam war? Even in the best courses in the best schools, do the students get exposed to Stanley Karnow’s works? Or how about how “Manifest Destiny” is taught? Do the kids get exposed to “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee”?

    Heck, is “A People’s History of the United States” even in the libraries of most high schools? Or, to be more 21st century, on the students’ assigned Audible list?

    No, no, and no – would be my guess. Maybe people here with high school kids can enlighten me.

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