President Biden ill be speaking at 12:30 pm 1:30 pm Eastern Time. Putting this up a bit early so folks can plan for the time, if interested.
Something to read while we wait – satby linked to this great article by John Pavlovitz
When Americans Support Murderous Foreign Dictators https://t.co/AAHUmP6bJQ via @johnpavlovitz
— WaterGirl (@watergirl1001) February 24, 2022
When Americans Support Murderous Foreign Dictators
Watching the slow and steady Russian advance toward Ukraine over recent weeks, a stomach-turning series of thoughts took up residence in my head:
They’re not going to side with Putin, are they?
I mean, there’s no way that will be their position, will it?
They’d never be so bereft of decency and sense that they’d net out there, right?
My MAGA-leaning friends, Republican politicians, even the most morally-vacant Right Wing Network hosts and pundits wouldn’t go that far, would they?
Sure, they voted for and fell prostrate before a spineless, amoral weakling who’s showered the murderous Russian dictator with effusive praise for decades.
And yes, they repeatedly turned a blind eye as the knowledge of Russian interference in the 2016 elections surfaced, knowing the dire implications for our collective sovereignty and safety.
And yeah, they’ve steadfastly defended a violent insurrection on our Capitol designed to hold members of Congress hostage while commandeering the government and overturning a free and fair election.
And of course, they’ve spent months on thinly-veiled, childish, asinine #LETSGOBRANDON middle fingers toward a president who actually gives a damn about them and their children.
And sure, they’ve spent three years denying a virus, shunning safeguards, refusing masks, and opposing vaccines while a million of their countrymen and women were rapidly destroyed.
Even with all of that, even fully entrenched in embarrassing, blind tribalism for the past five years, they’re not going to take up the cause of a murderous, coldblooded dictator as he literally and figuratively tramples on the human rights of tens of millions of Ukrainians.
Americans don’t support sociopathic Russian warmongers under any circumstances, right?
Wrong.
…
People who place themselves in the camp of Vladimir Putin are not patriots, they aren’t America First, they aren’t Christians, and they aren’t pro-life.
They’re also not people who get to drape themselves in the flag, or invoke allegiance to this nation, or feign offense at kneeling football players, or spout some red, white, and blue nationalistic nonsense—because they never cared about any of it.
This is why the upcoming elections are the most pivotal in our history: because the kind of people who take up the cause of a monster like Putin while vilifying and condemning Joe Biden and Justin Trudeau are telling us who they are, how little regard they have for democracy, and how much contempt they have for America, its laws, its people, and its place in the world.
When Americans support murderous foreign dictators, they’ll welcome murderous domestic ones.
The rest of us are going to need to decide if we’ll let them.
Read the whole thing. It’s really good.
Gin & Tonic
Big if true:
sdhays
@Gin & Tonic: Stunning, if true.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Gin & Tonic: Sure fits they are just conscripts being pushed forward.
Chris
@Gin & Tonic:
Holy shit, what?
This really seems too good to be true, especially given how massively one-sided the war is and how unlikely Ukraine is to win it. But it also does correlate with what we’ve been hearing in terms of how horrific discipline is in the Russian Army right now, so…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Gin & Tonic: I still take Kinzinger with a grain of salt– as in: welcome to the club, but I remember when you voted against the first impeachment– but I imagine as MOC and an AF reserve officer he’s well sourced
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: I so hope that is true.
“Sent to kill Ukranians”, not to engage with Ukranian fighters?
sickening.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’ve been wondering about this, I think it’s too much to hope for, but it seems at least a rhetorical escalation
Alce_e_ardillo
@Gin & Tonic: Unfortunately, there wont be, not even if the soldiers are seen on television.
dmsilev
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I read that Boris Johnson is calling for Russia to be booted out of the SWIFT financial network, which would definitely Putin and his crony where it hurts (in the pocketbook).
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@WaterGirl: The POW said they were unaware of any kill orders. Like maybe the Russian generals “forgot” to pass that bit of Putin’s master plan along because they know it’s the little fish who pay the price in these situations.
Chris
@WaterGirl:
Kind of reminds me of the Iraq War, unfortunately. While Bush and the rest were doing this whole spiel about liberating the Iraqi people, the instructions given to soldiers, at least according to one of them who was later interviewed, were “anything that moves is the enemy, shoot to kill.”
Nicole
I’ve been thinking all morning about my 10th Grade World Cultures teacher, who came to the US as a refugee from Ukraine and would absolutely tear the head off of any student who tried to call her “Russian.” (This was in the late 1980s when we small-town Keystoner kids lumped all of the Soviet Union in with Russia). I googled her a bit today and discovered that many years after she taught me, she co-authored an excellent teaching guide about genocides, and it opens with a look at the USSR organized genocide-through-state-orchestrated-famine against the people of Ukraine in the 1930s. Well worth a skim through:
http://ncua.inform-decisions.com/eng/files/UkrGenocide_Teacher_Student_Workbook.pdf
WaterGirl
They just changed the time for this from 12:30 pm to 1:30 pm.
Mallard Filmore
@Gin & Tonic: All that harsh talk about leaving no enemy alive … it makes one feel good. But instead of killing them by ones and twos, it is better for most involved if the enemy surrenders by the thousands.
The great tragedy of war, is that the wrong people die.
Gin & Tonic
@Chris: Seems more like captured POW’s than “surrendered” forces.
clay
@Gin & Tonic: What, uhhh…… what did they think they were being sent to do?
burnspbesq
Anti-war demos in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Yekaterinburg, and Novosibirsk. Mass arrests.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-putin-protests-1682295
Gin & Tonic
@clay: The Ukrainian armed forces are referring to it as a “reconnaissance platoon,” so presumably they thought they were to gather information.
JPL
@clay: Peacekeepers.
SiubhanDuinne
@WaterGirl:
Just ended my Thursday morning Evolution class at 12:30 and hoped to see Biden’s remarks, but NOOO. And my hour-long Mindfulness Meditation class goes from 1:00-2:00, so unless he starts really late, I’ll probably miss it too. Hope the whole video will be available for viewing later.
Kirk Spencer
@Chris:
If you’re an infantryman and the shooting starts – not the marching, but the actual “somebody pulled a trigger or something went boom” shooting – two rules take effect.
Rule one: if it’s not yours, it’s theirs.
Rule two: shoot the different first.
And even though we teach the fact there will be purple and green on the battlefield and we do our best to train about it, in the end the soldier’s mind is processing the fact that he’s quite literally protecting his own life through using his rifle quickly and competently – shoot first, shoot best.
burnspbesq
@WaterGirl:
There is video of Russian artillery and air-to-ground missiles hitting apartment buildings.
Kent
Who knows. Putin said they were “peacekeeping forces”
I expect Russian conscripts could have been told any number of propaganda lies. Such as that they were entering Ukraine as peacekeepers and would be welcomed but the local population.
Old School
@clay:
dmsilev
Betty Cracker
Reading reports on Twitter (from journalists, shaddup!) that say BoJo tried to persuade G7 to ban Russia from SWIFT, but Canada was the only initial taker. Another report says Adam Schiff is on board:
WaterGirl
@SiubhanDuinne: Click to “watch on YouTube.” If you open it in YouTube you should be able to press play when you get home, drag the red bar until you see Biden, and then watch.
That’s what I do with the Jen Psaki press conferences all the time.
Chris
@Kirk Spencer:
The point is that it wasn’t a “once the shooting starts” thing: they were explicitly being told to start the shooting, regardless of what kind of situation they were in and what it was they were shooting at. At least in this guy’s memory.
Chris
@Betty Cracker:
I don’t get to say this very often, but go Boris. Rest of the G7, get the fuck with it already.
WaterGirl
@burnspbesq: Disgusting. He plans to bomb civilians into submission.
skerry
Biden (@POTUS) just tweeted
RaflW
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: They were told they’d be greeted as liberators?
trollhattan
Today’s UK sanctions list.
jnfr
I really hope Biden throws the whole book at Putin now. Cut them off from everything.
burnspbesq
UEFA will probably change its mind tomorrow, and move the Champions League final out of St. Petersburg—all that sweet Gazprom sponsorship money notwithstanding. Wembley is unavailable on 5/28, so my guess is it will go to Paris.
Russia and Ukraine are both in the playoffs to qualify for the World Cup. FIFA’s reaction will be interesting.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
What role does China play in swift and other sanctions?
trollhattan
@RaflW: Heard a Russian politician say in an interview that Ukrainians would literally toss flowers at Russian “liberator” tanks. So on the nose compared to “greet us as liberators with flowers and candy” that I have to believe it was intentional, except it was a Brit and not a US interviewer.
Ruviana
@RaflW: You know, flowers and candy
ETA Which Trollhatan got to first.
Roger Moore
@dmsilev:
I’ll believe Johnson is serious when he seizes Chelsea from Roman Abramovich.
Miss Bianca
@Gin & Tonic: Oh please, oh please…
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: Glad to see Belarus is on the sanctions list.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Hoping that Biden is only waiting to get on board with SWIFT until after the other allies are publicly on board. As a strategic move, rather than cowardly.
This is war.
burnspbesq
@Roger Moore:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but what would be the legal basis for that?
WaterGirl
@burnspbesq: So which is more corrupt? FIFA or the olympic committee?
Roger Moore
@burnspbesq:
The same as the legal basis for shutting Oligarchs’ bank accounts. If they’re legally cut off from the financial system, they can’t own EPL teams, either.
Kirk Spencer
@Chris: I was responding to your remark about instructions to our soldiers in Iraq.
I think I’ll go back to quoting instead of just linking to help reduce the confusion due to multiple discussions.
Miss Bianca
@Nicole: I spent a punishing summer driving back and forth over the Continental Divide listening to an audiobook of Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands, which spelled out the true horror of Stalin’s “kulakization” pogroms in Ukraine, along with other atrocities. It was so wrenching I could hardly stand it, but I kept listening. I felt like I owed it to the thousands and thousands who died because of Stalin and Hitler.
Now I’m thinking that every tankie and wanna-be fascist in the US should be duct-taped to chairs and forced to listen to it, too.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: Yes.
Fleeting Expletive
@Betty Cracker: Betty, would this have the effect of blocking access to any of the vast fortune Putin and pals reportedly own? Just in the amount of riches they command, it sounded like they were hunkered down for a two year seige and could ignore an international freeze on their monetary assets, separate from their fuel sales to Europe.
Miss Bianca
@Betty Cracker: Yay, Schiff! I am just finishing up Midnight in Washington now and did find myself wondering this morning where he was on all this.
cain
Greeted like liberators eh? The stupid.. it burns.
citizen dave
@Nicole: This is a really cool story and link, thanks. It occurred to me today that I did talk to two Ukrainians in 2018 when I did a USAID program in Zagreb with 10 countries from in/around the Black Sea and Croatia. They were two older women from Kiev and were our interpreters. Talking to them on the side, I made the mistake of assuming they were Russians and they set me straight, and were nice about it. I remember them saying the young people weren’t learning, or didn’t want to speak Russian. Ukrainian and English were preferred.
F Putin.
Betty Cracker
Wow, Trump clowned himself hard on the Laura Ingraham show last night. Ingraham was interviewing the orange fart cloud about the Ukraine situation when news of possible amphibious landings in Odessa were reported. She asked Trump for his thoughts, and he started complaining about U.S. troops being sent into…Ukraine…which he thought was “very sad.” Ingraham then cut in:
Sweet weeping Jeebus.
Miss Bianca
@trollhattan: Jesus, I can’t believe I’m saying, “Go, BoJo!”
Kattails
Just to note that Putin specifically stated that excluding them from SWIFT would bring on horrific consequences. Galactic level temper tantrum.
Miss Bianca
@Kattails: What, he’s going to launch nukes? He’s already threatened and delivered on “horrific consequences”.
Betty Cracker
@Fleeting Expletive: I have no idea how it all works, but I read recently that Putin regards being cut off from SWIFT as tantamount to a declaration of war. I guess that loses its power a bit when you go invading a neighboring country…
Roger Moore
@Kattails:
He’s already started a shooting war with Ukraine. What more is he going to do?
Betty Cracker
Good old Doug…
Gin & Tonic
*This* I can’t understand:
burnspbesq
@WaterGirl:
Tough call.
sdhays
@Miss Bianca: The cynic in me wonders if Flobalob is giddy at the opportunity to paper over the damage of his disastrous Brexit policies with the damage anti-Russian sanctions will do. Not to mention the glorious distraction he’s getting from “Partygate”.
Almost Retired
@Betty Cracker: Good to see that He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named is keeping up with current events in preparation for his upcoming campaign. I’m surprised he didn’t say something even stupider, like “After Putin liberates Ukraine, he’ll liberate the rest of Africa.”
trollhattan
@Miss Bianca:
Right? Tony Jay would perhaps (rightly) point out that BoJo is the happiest man in the UK now that Vlad has shoved Covid drinkathons at Number 10 off the news pages entirely.
For some reason I’m reminded of Mark hiking the Appalachian Trail Sanford, who was blasted off the front page by Michael Jackson’s departure from this planet. Instead of laughingstock for life, he manfully struggled forward and got himself elected to the House.
Miss Bianca
@sdhays: The cynic in me bows to the cynic in you, but if BoJo follows through on it I’ll take it as a win no matter what his motivations may be.
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
It sounds as if the Russians want to run a supply route through the area. It shows how much they care about the lives of their soldiers.
realbtl
Formula One is due to race in Russia this season. Be interesting to see what happens.
Ksmiami
@Betty Cracker: Whatever dude- you started it, we will crush you.
trollhattan
@Gin & Tonic:
Mind = boggled. “Breathe deep, comrades, but don’t kick up that dust.
sdhays
@Gin & Tonic: Two things come to mind – 1) they don’t want real fighting around Chernobyl because that could get really, really nasty for all involved, so they have secured it quickly, and 2) they’re concerned about Ukrainian guerrillas potentially using it as a source of radiation weapons.
I have no idea how plausible #2 might be, but it’s something I would think an invading army would want to take off the table.
Baud
@Betty Cracker: Haha. I guess the new kid is sleeping.
sdhays
@Miss Bianca: Agreed.
PJ
@Nicole: Growing up in the ’70s and ’80s, we were accustomed, if not actually taught, to think of the Soviet Union as a unified mass of people, also known as Russians. The only real cultural experience we had of the Soviet Union was the Olympics, which just reinforced that idea. That changed a little when I was high school age and met some kids of Latvian descent, and read a thriller by Frederick Forsyth (I think) that featured Ukrainian separatists. (Before then, “the Ukraine” was just a region on the Risk board.)
My freshman year of college (in the mid-80s) one of my hallmates, Kris (prounounced “Kreesh”), was also of Latvian descent. During a discussion once, Kris opined that the Soviet Union was going to fall apart and that Latvia would again be free. We laughed at him: “Are you high?” The idea was ludicrous. For us, the Soviet Union was a monolith that had been around forever, and would be forever, just as the Cold War would be. But Kris was adamant. And, as it turns out, right – in less than a decade, the Soviet Union had collapsed and Latvia was independent.
Jump ahead 35 years, and Kris is now the Prime Minister of Latvia. This is his Twitter statement about the Ukrainian invasion: https://twitter.com/krisjaniskarins/status/1496708315077881866?cxt=HHwWlMC5yYuSsMUpAAAA
Baud
@PJ:
And you’re a jackal!
Baud
@realbtl:
I think one driver already pulled out.
PJ
@Baud: Somehow we find the station we deserve in life.
Miss Bianca
@PJ: Whoa, what a cool story. And I definitely have to learn more about Latvia, it seems!
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
He’s so famous now!
scav
@sdhays: ooohhh yes, cynics unite. There was likely another N° 10 working-related champaign party when the shooting started.
Baud
@Kay:
Whoa!
Kattails
@Miss Bianca: no, I doubt he even could, there are multiple layers of safeguards on that. But there are other sets of weaponry out there nowadays. Just making a comment on what’s going on in his shit-filled brain. I saw before and after photos of one of his opponents he’d had poisoned.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@trollhattan: BoJo only plays the idiot, unlike Dumbass Donny, so BoJo might see Putin’s Midlife Crises War as the lifeline it is for BoJo’s political career and seizing it with both hands. I imagine Russian sanctions are also safe with Tory voters because it’s just more putting the wogs in their place like with Britexit.
jonas
Well, when you think about it, rightwingers have always had little chubbies for authoritarian dictators, from Franco to Pinochet to Papa Doc. They claimed it was a “lesser of two evils” thing because these guys opposed communism, but it was also about their overall macho antiliberalism. At least these guys were nominally on our side in the Cold War so there was some cover there. Putin is 1. a murderous thug who is 2. also a passionate enemy of America and everything it stands for. It’s one thing to hold your nose and support the enemy of your enemy. It’s another to actively show support for the enemy while denigrating your own country and that’s where the Fox/MAGAt right is now.
lowtechcyclist
Hell, I’m no patriot at all, and I’m still more patriotic than those clowns.
Steeplejack
A differing report on SWIFT (unconfirmed):
Kay
@Baud:
I want a picture of the new baby in a “In This Ohio Diner” t shirt, but at the same time I don’t approve of posting children’s pictures :)
He should just send it to me.
hueyplong
@Betty Cracker: The author of The Emperor’s New Clothes finds this way too absurdly over the top and demands a re-write.
scav
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: They do rather need all the oligarchs to keep their housing prices up and money laundering lifeblood pumping, so I don’t know. Bojo et al might be happiest with him getting the verbal applause with little actions to follow.
Peale
@Roger Moore: cut off our power grid for a few months. Do you really think that after years of exhorting companies that they actually took security seriously? That said, I think a month or two without internet and cable TV would do us some good.
Miss Bianca
@Kattails: He is such an evil man. And now, apparently, crazier than a shithouse rat. I never thought I would hear myself say this, as I’m not normally an advocate of assassination, but I hope some of his inner circle take it upon themselves to…get rid of him. By any means necessary.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Gin & Tonic:
“It’ll be easy to get to, is lightly guarded, famous and a very large area for a Russian flag. Take this objective!”
“Yes General. How many battalions will I need?”
Kay
Oh, take the yachts. They can sue later. I wonder who, exactly, would take them? Fun job.
Baud
@Kay: They’re houseboats.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: I keep waiting for the NYT to co-opt him! :)
Steeplejack
Brachiator
@Kay:
RE: Roman Abramovich’s $590,000,000 yacht Eclipse is in Sint Maarten (Netherlands territory). It could be seized.
This yacht would make for some cool affordable housing.
geg6
@Miss Bianca:
Agreed. But if anyone in this world needs to be assassinated, it’s that guy. I, for one, would blow kisses and cheer the assassins.
Peale
@Kay: We could lease them as lobster boats while we wait for the lawsuits to settle.
Kattails
Biden was unjustly bullied as a child with a stutter. I suspect he has a life long intolerance of bullies that Vlad may not have factored into the response he’s going to get.
MisterForkbeard
@Steeplejack: Germany is really worried about gas/fuel prices over the winter. I have some friends in Czechia who say that if fuel imports close (which was a direct threat from Putin) then a LOT of people are going to literally freeze to death over the winter.
Baud
@Kattails:
I think Biden’s number one objective is keeping the NATO coalition intact. I’m sure he’d prefer to doing something easier like herding cats.
MisterForkbeard
@Betty Cracker: Man, they should bring him on as a sort of sanity check/ombudsman.
If their articles and hot takes are ever repeateding DougJ, they know they need to course-correct right fucking away. This is a valuable service, and they should pay him for it :)
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: I guess Putin thinks he and only he gets to decide what war is. He bombs the shit out of another country and declares pieces of it for his own, with signals that the rest of the country and more will follow. Not war.
The guy who started the actual war? On the receiving end of financial consequences for his actual war – he thinks that’s war.
I’m sure it’s wrong that I wish someone would take him out.
Kay
@Baud:
Guffaw.
Have you read this?
Really good. I read it and gave it to my middle son, the Great Lakes shipping enthusiast. It’s not Great Lakes though. He loved it too.
Peale
@Steeplejack: While it is a stereotype, these guys don’t look like they have smiled since childhood. Do Russian infants ever pass that stage where “the first social smile” is considered a development milestone?
Ksmiami
@Steeplejack: plow over them. Disconnect Russia now
Roger Moore
@jonas:
Putin is an enemy of everything we think America ought to stand for, but he’s a supporter of some of the things (e.g. White supremacy) that it historically has actually stood for. What right wing support for Putin shows is that they care a lot more for those things than they do for democracy.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
ABL and DougJ left BJ to get more famous. Also, Freddie DeBoer – sort of :)
Ksmiami
@MisterForkbeard: winter is almost over…
Eunicecycle
@PJ: that is a great story.
Chief Oshkosh
@burnspbesq: I have a police force and you don’t?
/s
Baud
@Kay: I haven’t read it. Looks good though. I’ll add it to my list of books I tell myself I will read someday.
hueyplong
When a normal person’s vehicle is seized, there is scant regard for whether it suffers any collateral damage. It seems only fair that such lack of consideration attend the still hypothetical seizure of the big ass boats.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: I’d forgotten Freddie existed until accidentally stumbling across a Twitter beef involving him. Whoa, what a mess!
MisterForkbeard
@Ksmiami: Yes, but it’s still going to be very cold there for awhile yet. If gas supplies go away today, there’s a lot of really impacted people – especially older folks in the old soviet tenements. :(
Roger Moore
@WaterGirl:
My gut feeling is that Putin believes he’s already in a Cold War with us. He’s attacked us again and again, and we haven’t done much about it. He just wants us to be dumb and keep treating the Cold War like it isn’t happening, and he’s making threats to try to keep it that way.
Steeplejack
@MisterForkbeard:
Chief Oshkosh
@realbtl: Not sure. They have pulled races for political reasons in the past, but then, they also court anyone with the funds to support a venue.
hueyplong
We have a strategic reserve. So no one in Europe does? And doesn’t that mean that Putin has always been able to do whatever he wants and always will be able to do whatever he wants so long as he doesn’t do it June-August?
Gin & Tonic
Say “war”, Joe. Just say the word.
sdhays
@Steeplejack: If the Russian invasion doesn’t stop, there’s a pretty good chance those customers are going to be disappointed in getting their gas from the pipelines going through Ukraine.
Kay
Too many to arrest. They’ll have to just chase them out. The organizers though.
JPL
@Gin & Tonic: Putin chose this war.
he heard you
PJ
@Betty Cracker: The internet has a way of encouraging personality disorders.
Brachiator
@Steeplejack:
This could be interesting if oligarchs turn on Putin.
Chief Oshkosh
@Peale: Maybe use them to finally buy off Manchin? His vote seems for sale to the highest bidder. Who’s going to outbid on a $6M ‘houseboat’?
Kay
Kent
How many Russian troops do you reckon it will take to protect 1000 miles of Russian pipeline across Ukraine if they install a pro-Russian puppet government and the Ukrainian opposition resorts to economic sabotage.
Miss Bianca
@Steeplejack: I wonder if Ukraine’s response to that is going to be, “like hell you will”?
ETA: Not sure how much they could do about it. Tho’ if I were a partisan, those pipelines might be some of my first targets.
trollhattan
@Brachiator:
They’d make fine troop ships, if not exactly landing craft. I guess they could be one-use landing craft {crunnnnch}
Chris
@Roger Moore:
Specifically, the Cold War. You know, the one that as far as he’s concerned never ended.
Miss Bianca
@Kay: Wow, indeed.
Anotherlurker
@trollhattan: Pull and sell the engines, interior furnishings, electronics, fuel etc. etc. and sink them as artificial reefs.
Wapiti
@Chris: I was in Panama when that conflict went down. The operation order from my commander finished with: “… the Panamanian soldiers are the brothers and fathers of your soldiers’ girlfriends. Don’t kill anyone you don’t have to.”
MazeDancer
Hope this list of sanctioned “elites and their families” is long.
Open window, Oligarchs. Only way to keep the kids in London and the mistress in Miami.
C Stars
@Kay: That is magnificent. Do ordinary Russians want this war? From what I’ve heard, even before these protests, I don’t think so.
mrmoshpotato
It’s fucked up that this section of Pavlovitz’s writing applies to both Putin and the bloated, orange, fascist shitstain.
debbie
@Gin & Tonic:
I’m not a praying person, but I am praying this is true.
VeniceRiley
Ban all members of Duma as well as their families from travel and seize their swiss chalets.
And 2 free yachts to whoever kills Vlad.
debbie
Joe is positively shining.
RaflW
@Gin & Tonic: F*ing nuts.
Last night it occurred to me that part of what Putin waited for before invading Ukraine was the multi-billion dollar, internationally financed new cap being installed.
But seizing it seems like a move meant for global blackmail? Or are they gonna turn Unit 4 back on for cheap (dangerous) electricity
eta: @sdhays’ idea seems less crazed. But still worrisome.
Kattails
@Baud: made me laugh, thanks. Trying to follow this, get some work done, and prep for a 6 to 12” snow storm.
Baud
@Kay:
Pfft. I don’t see a single 18-wheeler.
Leto
Why is Peter Douchie allowed in the press pool? I’ll continually ask that as long as he’s pushing a pro-Kremlin/pro-stupid stance. JFC.
Kent
At present, the LEGITIMATE government of Ukraine benefits from the Russian gas transiting the country. Their cut goes straight into Ukrainian government coffers. But if they are overthrown by a Russian puppet regime that is extracting the wealth of the country for its own ends and to prop up its own regime then I suspect all bets are off.
PJ
Biden confirms it’s the EU countries that are balking at cutting Russia from SWIFT.
Alison Rose
God, these questions.
M31
good lord, our press corps is a gigantic embarrassing pile of shit
MisterDancer
@Alison Rose: I KNOW.
These questions are horrid.
Baud
@Alison Rose:
@M31:
Heh. I can’t watch, but the instant reactions are funny and, I’m sure, justified.
James E Powell
I’m watching Biden deal with these reporters.
These reporters are assholes. I want them all reassigned to war zones.
That is all I have to say.
Leto
@Alison Rose:
@MisterDancer: yeah, these are just bad.
MisterDancer
Given how Richard Engel ended up, I’m not sure that’s a great plan.
Alison Rose
I kind of loved how he would grin at them acting like dipshits. He’s probably thinking, how the fuck did you people ever graduate from J-school?
dmsilev
@MisterDancer:
“Mr. President, can you please comment on all the ways that you suck?”
Gin & Tonic
“Let me bring in Chuck Todd and Andrea Mitchell…:
–click–
Jeffro
I hope this is instructive to President Biden and the WH team going forward: taking the DC press corpse’s questions in any way, shape, or form just destroys the impact of almost anything the President has to say. They are stupid, they’re inflammatory, and they muddy the message.
debbie
@PJ:
I’d bet it’s actually the banks. They can’t stand to lose a single penny.
debbie
@James E Powell:
I was only listening. They all sounded like Fox and OANN types. “Respectfully, Mr. President,” my ass.
Frank Wilhoit
@Gin & Tonic: Looking for evidence that it was a Western sabotage operation.
dr. bloor
@Chris: And like any good repetition compulsion, it will have the same outcome as it did the first time around.
Gin & Tonic
Steeplejack
@Gin & Tonic:
Andrea Mitchell might be due for a nap. She was on live at 1:00 a.m. last night.
Baud
@Gin & Tonic:
Beutifully viscious.
Leto
@Steeplejack: the Crypt Keeper never sleeps.
Miss Bianca
@MisterDancer: And here I was thinking they were slightly *better* than usual. I mean – still shallow, fatuous, and borderline insulting, but…*slightly* better.
Alison Rose
@Jeffro: I’d love to see him ask them “Okay, fine. You seem to think anything and everything I do is wrong. YOU tell ME what you would do in this situation. Give me all the particulars, lay every detail out, what you’d do, how you’d get it done, what it would achieve, the cost, the loss of life, etc. Please proceed.”
Miss Bianca
@Baud:
@Gin & Tonic: Oh, wow. I love it. Tho’ I feel kind of bad about how much I love it.
Leto
Per talking head on CNN, more than 800 protestors arrested in Moscow, over 1500 arrested across 50 cities.
Kelly
@Baud: I’ve enjoyed everything John McPhee has published. Absolutely top quality non-fiction.
Steeplejack
SWIFT backgrounder.
Ruckus
WaterGirl:
Did you actually expect different?
War is war. It doesn’t have more than 2 degrees, conventional and nuclear. It isn’t overtaking, it’s over powering. It is about killing.
Look at the history of Russia and Ukraine. This goes back a long time. This is more than vlad wanting their land. vlad wants their entire country and he would like them to give it to him. But he’ll take it by force if he can. But that is going to cost him, and likely far more than he understands. And he stands to lose far more than he could have possibly gained. vlad is risking a lot, a lot more than a lot of people think. He’s at risk because so much of his country has been stolen by him and people that back him. All that Russian money in London didn’t come from people earning it by the sweat of their brow. And neither did vlad’s money.
Betty Cracker
@Leto: Fox News is an authoritarian propaganda outlet that has done more to make America stupid, divided and ungovernable than any single entity on earth (with the possible exception of evangelical Christianity, a pathology vector with lots of overlap).
As long as Fox News employees continue to receive WH press credentials and get called on as if they’re real reporters, it’s difficult for me to get too bent out of shape at how the MSM outlets treat the Dem president. That’s what happens when you help the schoolyard bully tape a “kick me” sign to your own ass.
Gin & Tonic
@Ruckus:
I wish I shared Slava’s optimism here:
Leto
@Betty Cracker: agreed.
The Dangerman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Putin should read his history. Mussolini (killed by Italians). Ceaucescu (killed by Romanians). I surely hope (duh) Russia has something like a 25th Amendment for nuke control.
Something also has to be done about Trump. I’m tired of his jerking off about his love for Putin.
Just One More Canuck
@realbtl: Sebastian Vettel (Aston Martin driver) said he won’t go
trollhattan
@PJ:
Because I had no idea what it is, looked it up and this ‘splains everything, to my satisfaction anyway.
Leto
@Just One More Canuck: I’ve hated that race since day one. Honestly I hate half the races just based on location, but that one in particular always rankles me.
Steeplejack
@Steeplejack:
In before The Onion: “Russia moves to PayPal for electronic funds transfers.”
jnfr
@Roger Moore:
I think that’s right. There are nice hard roads through there to Kiev, and the marshes all around are hard for tanks and trucks to drive through.
Spc
@dmsilev: He says that knowing there is opposition right now (there are significant downstream impacts on our side). Makes him look tougher knowing it’s unlikely at the moment.
Alison Rose
@Ruckus: I don’t mean to speak for WaterGirl, but just to note–being disgusted is not the same as being surprised. One can still express revulsion at something that was expected and anticipated.
Ruckus
@Gin & Tonic:
Me too.
The world is getting far too crowded for people like vlad to exist and prosper any longer. Because it/he doesn’t just kill a few hundred/thousand people. This ends up effecting millions of people, no, more like hundreds of millions. And all for what – his fucking ego?
The old saying always applies:
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
Remember when they gave Fox Helen Thomas’ seat in the press room? “Reaching across the aisle” has worked zero times with this bunch (despite ten-thousand NYT and WaPo op-ed pleas for just that) and the well, once poisoned can never again be drank from.
mrmoshpotato
@Leto:
Exactly. No need for RT in the US; FOX “News” exists.
Spanky
@Gin & Tonic: There’s a lot of wishful thinking in that post, but he knows modern Russia far better than I do.
The Pale Scot
THAT would set Putin off.
Steeplejack
Hoarse is good on authoritarian megalomania (thread):
Thread Reader version here.
Leto
@Just One More Canuck:
https://apple.news/Ac_vr1CaGSbmvWMLNx8jy8w
Spanky
I’m getting daily emails from my brokerage house, saying “DON’T PANIC ABOUT UKRAINE! ALL IS WELL!” I’m not panicking. Far from it. But I suspect I’m in the minority of investors, and if that’s the case it sucks to be them.
No one should be making big money moves this week*. You’re either way too early or way too late.
(* Unless you’re a Russian oligarch, although for you it’s waaaay too late.)
Kent
@Gin & Tonic: I don’t share any such optimism. Cuba, Venezuela, and North Korea show us just how long authoritarian regimes can linger on despite turning their nations into economic and political basket cases. And those are all countries with amateur hour militaries and state security services compared to Russia and former KGB operative Putin.
Leto
@Steeplejack: I posted this on the initial invasion thread, but this article from former Ambassador Michael McFaul and professor Robert Person was a very good read.
What Putin Fears Most
Forget his excuses. Russia’s autocrat doesn’t worry about NATO. What terrifies him is the prospect of a flourishing Ukrainian democracy.
Cacti
Russian goons now reported to be shelling hospitals.
Leto
@Spanky: or member of the UK parliament who moved his money about 48 hours before the sanctions were announced.
The Pale Scot
@Gin & Tonic:
*This* I can’t understand:
A 100 kilos of explosives could make the area no go. The prevailing winds send it to Donbass, Belarus, Russia. Could look at as the Dutch flooding their country in WW2. We can’t have it, neither will you.
Roger Moore
@Steeplejack:
There was already something about Russia doing everything using cryptocurrency. I don’t think that works the way they think it does.
trollhattan
@Steeplejack:
Have to say, was pleased at the administration’s consistent revelations of the Russians’ moves and plans. I do think it shook their plans and actions to some extent, because they would never think of doing such a thing and are likewise used to our being circumspect about intelligence, for fear of burning methods and sources.
Facts can be weapons.
Kent
@trollhattan: As I recall, Helen Thomas was a long-time UPI reporter, not Fox News. She resigned from UPI after 50+ years the day after it was acquired by the Moonies. I also recall she was a particular thorn in George Bush’s side during the whole Iraq War fiasco.
trollhattan
@Cacti:
That is straight from their Aleppo playbook. They fucking bombed the hospitals.
WaterGirl
@Alison Rose: Thank you! I wasn’t here when that went up.
James E Powell
@Kay:
I got the In this Ohio Diner coffee cup.
Miss Bianca
@Gin & Tonic: Well, as the old saying goes…”from (her) mouth to God’s ear.”
trollhattan
@Kent:
Yup, that’s my point, she had that great seat because of her decades of work, and then it was thrown away to Fox and not somebody who, you know, was a legit seasoned journalist.
Dumb move.
Just One More Canuck
@Leto:Agreed, but I think this was one of the last years for Sochi – it was supposed to move to St. Petersburg in a couple of years. There’s a story on my feed that F1 is considering cancelling the race. That never would have happened when Bernie was in charge
Ruckus
@Alison Rose:
Of course you are right, it isn’t the same.
I meant that this is who vlad is, has always been and will always be. Disgust aside, none of this should be a surprise.
Maybe I expect less of people, maybe I’ve been around a long time and have seen that people rarely change stripes as they age. I have been around long enough to see that as people get older they have a tendency to hold on to crap that they don’t need because they see the end coming a lot sooner than later. They lose some/a lot of that looking forward part of life, because most of it is behind them. And for people in power that can mean losing everything that they’ve built to define them. They often look for that one more thing that will keep that spotlight on them just a while longer. Those who have never been in the spotlight often just see another day, another mile, because they aren’t affected by that loss of too much power, because they never had nor likely wanted it. But those who have enjoyed that too much power, that definition of themselves, that loss is everything. That loss becomes their definition. This power I’m talking of, that doesn’t occur only in owners of countries, it is based upon those people’s view of themselves. The local bully sees the same loss, even if not in the same degree and will often try to save the same face, the one they see in the mirror.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@trollhattan:
“Hey Vlad – you got leaks.”
Steeplejack
@trollhattan:
Could it really be true that sunlight is the best disinfectant? ?
WaterGirl
@Ruckus: Alison Rose is correct. I did not say surprised.
Kirk Spencer
Ownership is not independent control. However, the organizations structure means the only government voice that matters is that of the EU. If the EU decides to have SWIFT impose factions, it will happen.
But because it takes an act of, well, parliament to impose those sanctions it will likely take a few days even if everyone agrees – just because everyone involved is a politician who will want their name associated with the piece of history.
Roger Moore
@Kent:
I think there are substantial differences between Castro’s Cuba and Putin’s Russia that won’t necessarily work to Putin’s advantage. Cuba was trying to change itself internally, and it could plausibly use American sanctions as an excuse for why it wasn’t as successful as they wanted.
In contrast, Russia is focused outward on taking on its neighbors for the glory of the Russian motherland, and opposition from the West has to be planned for. If Russia fails to take over Ukraine, or if it succeeds but at far greater cost than it was worth, then Putin doesn’t have a convenient excuse to fall back on.
This is especially true if the weight of that expense falls on the oligarchs who prop up Putin’s regime. Castro could put what resources he had into keeping the security state happy. If the sanctions are successful, they’ll make the security state in Russia very unhappy, and that’s extremely dangerous to Putin.
not_a_cylon
@Peale: As a Russian, can confirm that this stereotype is, in fact, correct. Even smiling on the street to a Russian means you’re strange and probably up to something. The mindset tends to go away with americanization.
I’ve also heard it said that the lack of smile in photos is more authentic, as you’re probably not smiling 24/7 at whatever venue the photo’s taken at, and honestly that makes sense to me.
Kay
Meritocracy news
He’s meeting with some other princes.
Leto
@Just One More Canuck: true; Bernie continues to be an absolute shitheel with regard to everything even though he’s been out of power for a few years now. Just… go away. If I want another shitty take on literally anything, there’s plenty of other asshats out there.
Jeffro
@Steeplejack: Hoarse is right.
You almost have to wonder if he’ll slip and say something in an upcoming speech about how he has already “owned” one American president, he’ll be back, etc etc.
Hey, whatever makes you feel better, Vlad. Right up ’til the moment that you don’t feel anything at all…
Jeffro
@The Pale Scot: yeah it’s weird…it feels like hostage-taking of a sort.
Or a way to obscure things if they decide to pop off a tactical nuke or two.
Mallard Filmore
@Gin & Tonic:
The troops will most likely toast the seeds and eat them.
Chris
@Ruckus:
It occurred to me recently that Putin’s record of “step down from office, leave power to a successor, change your mind, come back to power” is one we’ve seen at least twice recently, with Batista in Cuba and Ortega in Nicaragua. In both cases as well as for Putin, their first presidencies did at least some good for their country, but in both cases as well as for Putin, once they came back to power, there really wasn’t much to their regime other than pure self-worship.
Seems to be the same thing in every case: they left office, realized they missed the power and perks and status, decided they didn’t have much else in their life, and doubled down on getting it all back.
CaseyL
The area around Chernobyl became a wildlife refuge of a sort, with species flourishing there after being driven away from more settled areas. Another, if small, thing to mourn.
Ruckus
@Leto:
Forget his excuses. Russia’s autocrat doesn’t worry about NATO. What terrifies him is the prospect of a flourishing Ukrainian democracy.
Yep. It proves him 1000% wrong as a leader. Look at China, modern day China. Look how much it has actually changed in the last 40? yrs. Yes it’s still a regime but it has recognized that reasonable freedoms work better for everyone, that more works better for all than repression works for a few. Russia is a country for a few. And while it may be better for many, it could be a lot better for all. (as could the US if we didn’t have a political class of all for one, all for me, me, me, me trying to steal/control everything not tied down, and much that is, known as the conservative party)
Matt McIrvin
Cheryl has been tweeting about the Chernobyl situation, and thinks that the likelihood of the war causing a major nuclear incident there is low.
Kay
Interesting. White, wealthy school district already want to fire their new Trumpy board:
zhena gogolia
@Miss Bianca: His.
I was going to say the same thing. But I’m not an optimist.
Miss Bianca
@zhena gogolia:
Oops.
RaflW
I’m not absolutely sure, but it appears to me that Aeroflot may have just today taken delivery of a brand new Airbus A359 wide-body longhaul airliner from Toulouse in France. If so, WTF. Airbus should have been ordered to impound it, if I gathered this correctly. (Piecing this together from my own suspicions, info isn’t readily forthcoming.)
The Pale Scot
@hueyplong:
Europe has not been able to fill its reserve to capacity because Gazprom has refused to enter contracts. They are abiding by current contracts to letter, and will ship more for the spot market price. But that’s it. The UK is in the bucket. The government closed their storage facilities in the N.Sea then left the EU gas market. So they are a 3rd party who can buy any gas leftover after the European countries have bought what they want.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
Sorry, I wasn’t actually trying to put words in your mouth, or pen, just trying to make a larger point. Should have been more precise in my language.
zhena gogolia
@Miss Bianca: Russian nicknames are confusing! Nikita, Misha, and Slava are boys. Sometimes Sasha and Zhenya too. And of course Volodya and Vova. But we hate him so we won’t call him those.
Miss Bianca
@Kay: Yep. Same thing happened in Jefferson County.
I do find myself wondering about the new Trumpy school board my county just elected. They renewed our superintendent’s contract for two years in January, and then in February he suddenly announces he’s retiring to…wait for it…spend more time with his family. I kid you not. And hey…it could even be true!
But still…can’t help but feel that *something* is going on over there. But I haven’t covered any of the special meetings yet.
The Pale Scot
Down the road, if a puppet government is installed, how does Putin keep the educated and skilled classes from leaving? Put up a wall? It’s not 1968 anymore.
PJ
@The Pale Scot: He doesn’t care if the educated and skilled leave; in fact, that’s better for him, because it means less possibility of organized opposition. He’s done nothing to boost Russia’s economy through know-how – it’s all based on resource extraction. As long as he gets his cut, that’s all that matters.
Brachiator
@zhena gogolia:
How about Vodka?
Gin & Tonic
Not calling out anyone in particular, but please be aware that the capital city of Ukraine is Kyiv, not Kiev.
cain
@not_a_cylon: Not just in Russia – but I see this in Czechia. People never smile there. The only people who do are from other places.
The Pale Scot
@debbie:
Cyprus lives on money laundering, to point in 2008 they took money out of Cypriot’s accounts to cover bank’s international debts. Orban just wants to be like Russia. Italy needs Russian money to keep it’s banking system solvent
H-Bob
@Leto: He represents the Russian press.
Eolirin
@The Pale Scot: I think the bigger question is if he puts a puppet government in place how does he stop the Ukrainian people from driving it out the second he lets troop levels drop too low.
Chris
@The Pale Scot:
I thought Cyprus had gotten better about cracking down on the money laundering, thanks to EU pressure?
Come to think of it, I thought that was one of the reason Russian oligarchs went so all-in behind Brexit. They wanted a newer and shinier island laundry, one outside of EU control.
Kay
@Miss Bianca:
I talk to the school psychologist – my juveniles – and she told me they got a complaint that there was a “cuss word” in “a book”. Maybe narrow that down? There’s a lotta books!
They seem good natured about it but our school board didn’t change- the Trumpists didn’t pick up any seats. This is a Right wing area but they’re pretty reliable about not electing nutjob local government. They booted the Tea Party after one cycle. I just think with schools the most engaged parents are engaged around academics or sports. It’s not really ideological. They want high scores on the ACT, college money, and good sports teams.
Roger Moore
@Chris:
Putin didn’t really step away from power, though. He didn’t run for reelection as President, but he was made prime minister immediately after his term was over. Everyone paying attention knew it was just a way of following the forms of constitutional government while undermining the substance.
Kirk Spencer
@Gin & Tonic: My apologies. i will try to spell it right going forward, but for the last six decades it’s been Kiev wherever I’ve seen it. It is a hard habit to break, though I will try. Please have patience.
Gin & Tonic
@Chris: Funny thing. A friend of my son’s went to law school. After finishing, clerked for a Federal judge for a year, then went on to a year in Ukraine, a year in London and six months in Cyprus. Now he’s with DOJ in DC.
Wonder what he’s working on?
Steeplejack
The Pale Scot
@Jeffro:
Different radionuclides make that impossible.
The Pale Scot
Or just ignoring the puppets? Everyone has a camera today, they can’t arrest everybody
@Chris:
I think the EU attitude was Cyprus had to at least use shell companies like everyone else does. Previously Cyprus’s “international banks” were taking straight deposits directly from money launderers and putting it on their books as assets.
Another Scott
@Matt McIrvin: Yup. I think her take is correct.
Very short thread.
1) The radioactivity in the sealed building isn’t going anywhere.
2) It’s the symbolism that matters to VVP. The USSR collapse can be tied to Chernobyl.
UAlberta:
Cheers,
Scott.
RaflW
@Kay: Yeah, I posted about this just after it happened a couple weeks ago. I’m glad to see that the community is not accepting this bullshit quietly. I think there’s a CO law that the recall has to wait six months from the initial election, so plenty of damage can still be done. :/
bluefoot
@Kay:
A friend of mine has his skipper’s license and makes extra money moving boats for rich people – mostly from their summer location to their winter location and back. The owners usually provide crew and provisions, and my friend skippers. He’d be perfect for seizing large, expensive yachts on behalf of the federal government. He even has security clearance for his day job.
George
@Gin & Tonic: Stop with the stupid and annoying “look at me” nitpicking.
The capital of Ukraine is Київ.
Start referring to it correctly if you are going to be better than all the rest of us.
Uncle Cosmo
Riga (where I spent a few days just prior to 9/11) is an interesting city – sometimes called the Paris of the North, it reminded me more of Vienna, with concentric boulevards about the city center and a crap-ton of coffeehouses. Back in the day, with big-city cultural attractions and a semi-Western feel, it was a preferred location for retiring Soviet senior military officers forbidden to relocate to Moscow, Leningrad or Kiev (as it was transliterated then).
I found it an attractive city, home to the most extensive mostly-intact quarter of Jugendstil** architecture in Europe, much stunningly restored. When it wasn’t raining. Unfortunately for nearly all my time there, it freakin’ poured, which IIUC was pretty typical weather…
** Essentially the Teutonic version of Art Nouveau, IOW, nothing succeeds like excess…
Uncle Cosmo
;^D
Sally
I know you will all think I’m being trivial, but kick the Russians out of ALL international sport. This matters to ordinary people. Not football/soccer, no Olympics, no tennis, no skater, no F1, no tiddlywinks, nothing. No Russians, none, allowed to participate in international sport of any kind. They have made themselves pariahs. People earlier asked when have sanctions ever worked and you’ll all laugh, but in South Africa, banning them from international sport – particularly cricket and rugby really impacted on the white elite. The guys who ran the country really missed their rugby and cricket. Anyway, chuckle away!
Gin & Tonic
@George: Thank you for your concern.
Uncle Cosmo
1992, in Prague with my Significant-soon-to-become-Ex. As was our wont, we visited the first local McDonald’s (on Vodickova just off Wenceslas Square), just to see what was different. As we left she turned to me and said, with some bemusement, “Did you notice that the young man who took our order actually smiled at us!?!”
I replied, “I’ll bet that was the most difficult part of his training: You will smile at the customers!”
The Czechs have gotten better at that in the interim, but as of last report (late 2018) it was still very much a work in progress…
Gin & Tonic
@Uncle Cosmo: Hey, would you be smiling with all those drunken Brits puking on the street in Staré Město?