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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

Let there be snark.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

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Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

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Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

Tick tock motherfuckers!

Hot air and ill-informed banter

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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Wednesday Evening Foreign Affairs Open Thread: Slava Ukraini

Wednesday Evening Foreign Affairs Open Thread: Slava Ukraini

by Anne Laurie|  March 2, 20225:54 pm| 95 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, War in Ukraine

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Finnish demonstrators singing today at Russian Embassy in Helsinki, a patriotic Finlandia Hymn that was written during a russification period of Finland by Jean Sibelius at the beginning of the 20th century. Finland is changed in lyrics to Ukraine. Leaded by the ?@YLChoir? pic.twitter.com/eMMXuNUFYo

— Hanna Mahlamäki (@HannaMahlamaki) March 1, 2022

“We’ve hardly slept for seven nights,” President Zelensky says in a new address. “Or we sleep, but anxiously. My dears, the time will come when we’ll be able to sleep, but it will be after the war, after the victory, in a peaceful country, as we need.”

— Kaitlan Collins (@kaitlancollins) March 2, 2022

FYI:

Just had a conversation with @POTUS. The American leadership on anti-Russian sanctions and defense assistance to Ukraine was discussed. We must stop the aggressor as soon as possible. Thank you for your support!

— ????????? ?????????? (@ZelenskyyUa) March 1, 2022

The US remains in regular contact with Pres Zelensky through a secure satellite phone that the US gave the Ukrainian govt last month before the invasion occurred, per a US official familiar with the matter. The phone allows Zelensky to remain in contact w/ US while he’s mobile.

— Kylie Atwood (@kylieatwood) March 1, 2022

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — International Criminal Court prosecutor opens investigation into possible war crimes, crimes against humanity in Ukraine.

— Zeke Miller (@ZekeJMiller) March 2, 2022

New road signs for the Russian invaders in Ukraine: all roads lead to the Hague https://t.co/5xczlsAAHK

— Neil Hauer (@NeilPHauer) March 2, 2022


World Court to hear Ukraine/Russia case March 7-8 https://t.co/88WBV1GvCr pic.twitter.com/pZORQIwY6a

— Reuters (@Reuters) March 1, 2022


Of course Putin’s ‘genocide’ claim is bullshit, but the paperwork must be done:

AMSTERDAM, March 1 (Reuters) – The World Court on Tuesday said it will hold hearings on March 7-8 on whether to order “provisional measures” in a lawsuit brought by Ukraine against Russia seeking a halt to Moscow’s military actions in Ukraine…

The court, formally known as the International Court of Justice, is the United Nations’ venue for resolving disputes between states.

Ukraine’s lawsuit filed on Sunday argues that Russia’s claim it invaded Ukraine to prevent a genocide is false.

Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said on Sunday that he had filed the lawsuit at the court over genocide accusations made by Moscow…

At the March 7-8 hearings, judges will not consider questions of jurisdiction or of the merits of Ukraine’s case, but only whether the matter is so urgent they must order some immediate measure in the interests of justice before the case can be heard in full.

No date for a decision has been set.

While the ICJ is the United Nations’ highest court and its rulings are binding, states including Russia have ignored them in the past.

LATEST: Ukraine’s government appealed to the Red Cross, UN and Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe to organize humanitarian corridors for the evacuation of civilians from town and cities https://t.co/d3gDYQlat9

— Bloomberg Politics (@bpolitics) March 1, 2022

To Americans looking to travel to Ukraine to fight Russian troops, @kjp46 says: “We applaud their bravery. However, our travel advisory remains. U.S. citizens should not travel to Ukraine.” State’s advisories meant to “help Americans make the most informed decisions” on travel.

— Jennifer Epstein (@jeneps) March 2, 2022

One thing I have learned in this last, dark week is that I really appreciate the Ukrainian sense of humor. ☠️ https://t.co/WtMj98hWQD

— Laura Seay (@texasinafrica) March 2, 2022

They’re making Molotov cocktails like it’s a perogie bee ? https://t.co/tzlLprSDYZ

— Free Radical ???? (@Free_Radical1) March 2, 2022

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Reader Interactions

95Comments

  1. 1.

    Calouste

    March 2, 2022 at 5:59 pm

    People in the Netherlands are buying helmets and bulletproof vests at army surplus stores and bringing them to Ukraine.

  2. 2.

    Fair Economist

    March 2, 2022 at 6:00 pm

    I *love* Finlandia. What a great piece. Love redoing it for Ukraine.

  3. 3.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:03 pm

    Has the ICC ever moved this quickly before?

  4. 4.

    eversor

    March 2, 2022 at 6:08 pm

    When in doubt, make a cocktail, throw at tank.  Actually that’s styrofoam, so much nastier.   That stuff will stick to everything and not stop burning.   Cheap napalm.

  5. 5.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:11 pm

    I’m surprised I didn’t hear anything reported today, but I hope it’s true.

    Former Russian foreign minister calls on Russian diplomats to resign https://t.co/GonRpE2zCL
    — Anne Applebaum (@anneapplebaum) March 1, 2022

    All but one have resigned – good!https://t.co/5VxGgGLpmb
    — Kai Sahiluoma (@Sahiluoma) March 2, 2022

  6. 6.

    Sebastian

    March 2, 2022 at 6:13 pm

    This was posted yesterday or the day before in case you missed it.

    As you might know, Orthodox Christianity is big on saints and icons and a new “saint” was introduced tongue-in-cheek: Saint Javelin.

    A T-Shirt shop, associated with a Canadian charity, has popped up at saintjavelin.com.

    Maybe there’s something for you, too.

  7. 7.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:13 pm

    Speaking of Finland

    Finnish veteran’s greetings to #Ukraine. The miracle the veteran refers to is called the spirit of #WinterWar. I think the memory of this spirit is still our strongest defence. (No offence, our dear defence forces.) #Finland pic.twitter.com/dLz7CmiF3r
    — Sofi Oksanen (@SofiOksanen) March 2, 2022

  8. 8.

    Betty Cracker

    March 2, 2022 at 6:15 pm

    Holy shit, y’all!

    88/ In footage from Konotop verified by The Times, Russian troops walk with grenades through an angry crowd, and the mayor asks whether citizens want to surrender or fight, and risk the Russians razing their city. By @dim109 @bottidavid & @tiefenthaeler. pic.twitter.com/MP7GG46ZRR

    — Evan Hill (@evanhill) March 2, 2022

  9. 9.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:15 pm

    Ukraine’s intelligence says Putin might consider imposing martial law in Russia on March 4. Absolute maniac has pit himself in a death trap with his own stupid lunacy.— Illia Ponomarenko (@IAPonomarenko) March 2, 2022

  10. 10.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:16 pm

    Understandable, but still sad to see this:

    ⚡️Correction: Ukrainian special forces will no longer capture Russian artillerymen.

    The command of Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces has warned that it will not spare Russian artillerymen in response to their “brutal shelling” of civilians and cities.
    — The Kyiv Independent (@KyivIndependent) March 2, 2022

  11. 11.

    sdhays

    March 2, 2022 at 6:17 pm

    Not foreign policy related, but in other news the DoJ now seems to be pretty close to the Tramp January 6 conspiracy core:

    An Oath Keeper accused of providing protection to Roger Stone before storming the U.S. Capitol in a stolen golf cart appears to have cut a plea deal with the feds, raising the prospect of a potent witness turning on key players in the violent insurrection.

    h/t Atrios

    Maybe he just brought Stone coffee or something, but…maybe not.

  12. 12.

    eversor

    March 2, 2022 at 6:17 pm

    @debbie:

    He’s going to Tsar Nicholas’d at this rate.

  13. 13.

    Sebastian

    March 2, 2022 at 6:18 pm

    @Calouste:

    If you are fond of the idea that Ukraine is the tip of the spear in the fight between Light and Darkness, then imagine that all of Europe is grabbing the pole and putting its weight behind it.

  14. 14.

    Kay

    March 2, 2022 at 6:19 pm

    GOTLAND, Sweden — Sweden says four Russian fighter jets violated its airspace over the Baltic Sea on Wednesday.

  15. 15.

    C Stars

    March 2, 2022 at 6:21 pm

    I read somewhere (Twitter? not a great source) that there are people pouring into Ukraine from everywhere (including the US), volunteering to fight.

  16. 16.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:22 pm

    @eversor:

    That’s my hope.

  17. 17.

    Kay

    March 2, 2022 at 6:23 pm

    @sdhays:

    This week, NYPD officer Salvatore Greco is facing a department trial for his alleged role as unpaid security for Stone alongside James, who was set to submit a recorded statement in that case.

    Ugh. Nothing worries me more than when law enforcement become Trump enforcers. I can’t help but wonder how many will be sympathetic to the insurrectionists when it happens again.

  18. 18.

    dmsilev

    March 2, 2022 at 6:23 pm

    I’m pretty sure that, given an equivalent situation here, the IRS *would* try to classify captured enemy vehicles as taxable income. Make sure that you keep all receipts, folks.

  19. 19.

    sdhays

    March 2, 2022 at 6:23 pm

    @eversor: It’s one way to be remembered as a Russian King.

  20. 20.

    eversor

    March 2, 2022 at 6:24 pm

    @C Stars:

    This tends to happen.   It happened against ISIS as well.

  21. 21.

    LadySuzy

    March 2, 2022 at 6:24 pm

    @Kay: What is the shortest possible delay for Sweden, or Finland,  to be admitted in NATO ?

  22. 22.

    Kay

    March 2, 2022 at 6:25 pm

    @Sebastian:

    I’m so scared for them though. That big machine just keeps rolling toward them.

  23. 23.

    sdhays

    March 2, 2022 at 6:26 pm

    @Kay: There is a very deep corruption in the law enforcement organizations in this country. The Tramp people over-estimated it because they’re stupid, but it’s very much a threat.

  24. 24.

    dmsilev

    March 2, 2022 at 6:26 pm

    @LadySuzy: I imagine that if all of the current members agree that haste is necessary, it could happen very very quickly.

  25. 25.

    Kay

    March 2, 2022 at 6:28 pm

    @LadySuzy:

    Oh, God I have no idea. One of my son’s lives in Denmark and he said Danes are going bonkers over this, though. Does Putin realize yet what he’s creating here? They think he’s a threat.

  26. 26.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    March 2, 2022 at 6:28 pm

    How would one get a clear title on a Russian tank?

    Asking for a friend.

  27. 27.

    Sebastian

    March 2, 2022 at 6:29 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    “Let’s evacuate the women and children and let’s fight!”

    As we say in Croatian: “Stiglo do jaja  (steeglow do yaya)” and in  Ukrainian

    дійшов до яйця

    (diyshov do yaytsya)

     

    Meaning: (it has come/arrived) to the balls.

    Folks, this is pure Slavic Metal: They have artillery on us, get the women and kids out, we fight and fuck these motherfuckers up.

  28. 28.

    Suzanne

    March 2, 2022 at 6:29 pm

    @eversor: I’m surprised it hasn’t happened already.

    Or has it?

  29. 29.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:29 pm

    OT, but good news:

    UPDATE: First the @CollegeBoard parted ways with a top executive who was also pushing anti-CRT legislation as the speaker of the Indiana House.

    Now, in a new statement of principles, the College Board says that schools that ban certain concepts will lose their AP status. pic.twitter.com/ex6N8kmTnT
    — Judd Legum (@JuddLegum) March 2, 2022

    You have to click through to read the AP statement, but it’s titled “AP Opposes Censorship.” Basically, if a school bans required topics from an AP course, they’ll lose the AP designation.

  30. 30.

    Baud

    March 2, 2022 at 6:30 pm

    @debbie:

    Excellent.

  31. 31.

    Suzanne

    March 2, 2022 at 6:31 pm

    In all seriousness, I’d love an Adam Silverman update here.

  32. 32.

    eversor

    March 2, 2022 at 6:31 pm

    @Suzanne:

    Not yet no.   I’m guessing things get worse economically with martial law and bread lines again.   People go bonkers when they can’t eat.

  33. 33.

    Kay

    March 2, 2022 at 6:32 pm

    @debbie:

    Oh, God the AP parents will go nuts.

    Ranting about CRT is all fun and games until the transcript is at risk! :)

    They’ll PUT IN a critical race theory class.

  34. 34.

    Suzanne

    March 2, 2022 at 6:34 pm

    Did anyone read the Chotiner interview with Mearsheimer? I would love to hear others’ thoughts about it.

  35. 35.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    March 2, 2022 at 6:34 pm

    @LadySuzy:

    One of my oldest and closest friends is Finnish. She’s level-headed and knows the threat. Her grandparents had to flee after the Winter War treaty ceeded where they were living to the Soviets.

    But she emphasizes that much of the West doesn’t understand the Finnish national mindset on this.

    She hopes such a move would be a national plebiscite.

  36. 36.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:35 pm

    And now for something completely different:

    “SURPRISE, MOTHERFUCKER” pic.twitter.com/uJwfDAOYuQ
    — Paul Bronks for Lovina Animal Welfare (@slender_sherbet) March 1, 2022

  37. 37.

    WaterGirl

    March 2, 2022 at 6:39 pm

    @debbie: My black kitty Mr. Bear used to do that to Tucker when they were both little.  Mr. Bear would hide behind the curtains and then jump out at my sweet Tucker, who would indeed jump every time.

    Mr. Bear did it to me only once, and while it wasn’t funny at that exact moment, it was funny.

  38. 38.

    Sebastian

    March 2, 2022 at 6:40 pm

    @debbie:

    No, this is not sad but a lesson learned from the tragedies of Croatia and Bosnia. From 1991-1995 cities were besieged and shelled by artillery: mortars, cannons, howitzers, rockets.

    Years of bombardment, civilians living in shelters, in a bizarre fucked up abusive relationship.

    Ukrainians have learned this lesson, they know the Russian doctrine and watched it play out in the Balkans and in Grozny, they know what is coming.

    Shelling a city is not military action, it’s an attack on civilians and will be treated as such. Pay attention to who is saying this: The Command of the Special Forces, and what the message is:

    “You won’t see us, you won’t hear us. We will slit your throats as you kill our children.”

    Juxtapose this with the videos of Ukrainians feeding hungry Russian soldiers and you will understand how serious this message is.

  39. 39.

    scav

    March 2, 2022 at 6:42 pm

    @debbie: Yum. Introducing actual consequences to the performative oppressed ninnies is fun.

  40. 40.

    C Stars

    March 2, 2022 at 6:44 pm

    @debbie: Oh, excellent news

  41. 41.

    Alison Rose

    March 2, 2022 at 6:45 pm

    God, those words from Zelensky in Kaitlan Collins’ tweet…I just want to cry.

  42. 42.

    WaterGirl

    March 2, 2022 at 6:46 pm

    @Suzanne: Adam has tended to wait until dawn in Ukraine, around 11 pm or 11:30 pm blog time.

    I have been sick with worry all afternoon and I share your hope for an Adam Ukraine thread this afternoon or earlier in the evening.

    Does anyone have links to Zelensky’s recent speeches?  I am terrible at finding videos like that.

  43. 43.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:47 pm

    Holocaust survivors in a bomb-shelter in Ukraine, cursing Putin and asking for peace. pic.twitter.com/W70nzk5oKp
    — Alexander S. Vindman (@AVindman) March 2, 2022

    You don’t need to know the language to understand what they’re saying.

  44. 44.

    Sebastian

    March 2, 2022 at 6:47 pm

    @debbie:

    And here you have it. It is meant quite literally, you have to trust me on this.

     

    Ukrainian Special Operations Force vows to identify and assassinate all Russian artillery servicemen responsible for their indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets. “Each and every gun crew… will be slaughtered like pigs.” pic.twitter.com/I52k1Ua5YK— Illia Ponomarenko (@IAPonomarenko) March 2, 2022

  45. 45.

    Martin

    March 2, 2022 at 6:48 pm

    @debbie: Yeah, this is to be expected. Some of it is principled College Board, some of it is politics. CA has been notably direct on this topic, even sending a letter to the Kansas Governor telling him at the time that their ban on teaching evolution would result in CA public universities denying admission to any Kansas student unless they completed a CA certified science curriculum. CA would be pretty quick to let the College Board that if they allow AP to be diluted, that the state will drop them.

  46. 46.

    Sebastian

    March 2, 2022 at 6:49 pm

    @Martin:

    Good. As it should be.

  47. 47.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 2, 2022 at 6:49 pm

    @Kay:

    They’ll PUT IN a critical race theory class.

    ISWYDT. Nicely done, tying the two major topics together!

  48. 48.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:50 pm

    @Sebastian:

    And Rawanda and so many other places before the Balkans.

    I don’t remember the title, but I remember watching a Croatian film in the early 1990s. You could almost feel the vitriol dripping off the screen. I’m not sure the world will ever get past this tribal hatred.

  49. 49.

    WaterGirl

    March 2, 2022 at 6:51 pm

    @Suzanne:  Have you checked out WAR IN UKRAINE that is now in the blue category bar up top?  On mobile it’s the first item in the mobile menu.

    Besides being the easiest way to get to all the Ukraine posts, it has 3 great twitter feeds that were recommended by Gin & Tonic or Adam, 3 great newspapers for coverage, and 3 longer articles that Adam recommended.

    Along with several “how you can help” links, the most recent of which came from Gin & Tonic last night or today, so I added that one to the top of the list.

    Maybe checking out a couple of the twitter peeps would get you the information you want while you are waiting for an update from Adam.

    Here’s the direct link.

  50. 50.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:52 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    I’ve had bugs, brothers, and I don’t know what else do that to me. I tend to be jumpy.

  51. 51.

    realbtl

    March 2, 2022 at 6:53 pm

    This is getting interesting.  One of the Rus billioonaire’s had the worlds largest yacht in a drydock in Germany.  Emphasis on had.

  52. 52.

    Martin

    March 2, 2022 at 6:53 pm

    @Kay: Makes sense. For a while Europe could put Russia and USSR in different mental compartments, but Putins clear expression of wanting to effectively reconstitute USSR means all of the history of Soviet aggression now gets put back on Putin, which his actions are only serving to help along. Any skepticism Europeans might have had of threats of Russian expansion are completely dead and buried now.

  53. 53.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:55 pm

    @Sebastian:

    I’m not sure I can go quite that far. It’s the whole war thing about following orders. Killing soldiers won’t stop the orders coming from the military leadership. Something about cutting off the head of the snake?

  54. 54.

    scav

    March 2, 2022 at 6:57 pm

    @debbie: Pretty Village Pretty Flame is my entry into the general category.  Forks made me distinctly uneasy for a good while.

  55. 55.

    Argiope

    March 2, 2022 at 6:57 pm

    @WaterGirl: I’ve seen it, and used the links to send money to help.  I wonder, could we haz a fundraising for Ukraine thread with St Javelin stickers one of these days?  We do big things when we do them together.

  56. 56.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:57 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    Adam recaps the entire day, and comments continue long into the next day. I don’t get to read them until the next morning, which is probably a good thing since I wouldn’t be able to sleep after reading what’s gone on.

  57. 57.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 6:59 pm

    @scav:

    Reading the summary, I can understand why.

  58. 58.

    germy

    March 2, 2022 at 6:59 pm

    Tory chairman Ben Elliot’s concierge firm has suddenly removed the web page about its Russian business

    It comes after scrutiny of its work for billionaire oligarchs close to Putin

    Per archived version Quintessentially had 50+ “lifestyle managers” in Moscow helping elite clients pic.twitter.com/WEXSwvlFtY

    — Gabriel Pogrund (@Gabriel_Pogrund) March 2, 2022

    Original story by @georgegrylls @hzeffman revealing clients including Roman Abramovich + Mikhail Lesin, a former adviser to Vladimir Putin, nicknamed the “bulldozer. https://t.co/cbupwDvcMT

    — Gabriel Pogrund (@Gabriel_Pogrund) March 2, 2022

  59. 59.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    March 2, 2022 at 7:00 pm

    seeing this on twitter but no more detailed write-up yet, I do trust Wheeler to get the basic facts right. This guy was apparently in direct contact with Rhodes and Roger Stone

    (longish thread reporting the last hour or so of the actual plea in court)

    emptywheel @emptywheel 1h
    Now listening to the Joshua James plea. He’s an Oath Keeper who was checking in with news from the Willard Hotel on Jan 6, and then talked w/Stewart Rhodes about sedition afterwards. Judge Amit Mehta clearly already noted details from earlier plea docs he saw.

    He’ll plead to seditious conspiracy (!!!!!!) and obstruction

    The most important detail from his statement of offense, as I heard it, is they had a plan to surround the White House, with arms, to ensure no one got to Trump.

  60. 60.

    Aleta

    March 2, 2022 at 7:01 pm

    Fiona Hill spoke last Friday at Brown’s Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs.  The crisis changed it to virtual so it’s at  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_081Okujq_Y

    Some pre-invasion background; Putin’s ‘election’ re Russian solvency, jobs and military; energy companies; Russia’s  feudal assumptions ….

    Last 70 minutes she answers questions from the foreign policy guys who work at the Institute or research Eastern Europe. Her opinions of Putin’s support in Russia, Putin’s mentality …​

  61. 61.

    WaterGirl

    March 2, 2022 at 7:03 pm

    @Argiope: Would you mind sending me an email message with further thoughts on that?

  62. 62.

    Mike G

    March 2, 2022 at 7:04 pm

    A Dutch prison probably sounds pretty inviting to a typical Russian conscript.

  63. 63.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 7:05 pm

    And something else completely different:

    In 1970, Muhammad Ali appeared with Lola Falana to show off his piano playing skills. He was even The Greatest at that. What a gift to the world this man was. pic.twitter.com/Yvs8l2Epjd
    — The Sting (@TSting18) March 2, 2022

  64. 64.

    Argiope

    March 2, 2022 at 7:09 pm

    @WaterGirl: Sure!  On the way.

  65. 65.

    Ken

    March 2, 2022 at 7:13 pm

    @germy: a former adviser to Vladimir Putin, nicknamed the “bulldozer”

    I’m sure for completely innocent, even admirable, reasons.

  66. 66.

    Bill Arnold

    March 2, 2022 at 7:13 pm

    @Suzanne:
    Read it just now. IMO, his priors are stuck in the 1990s. His intellectual framework does not sufficiently weight the personality/style of strongman leaders, also IMO.
    It seems that the interview was prior to the Russian advance; I wonder if he’d revisit it.
    You may have noticed that Sergeĭ Viktorovich Lavrov (Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation) tweeted a video of him recently (yesterday), praising him. (Which is a bit ad hominem of me to mention,  but Russians will use whatever praise they can find.)

    Something changed in Putin in the week or two before the invasion, IMO. He could have moved troops into the East, parked them and started negotiations (which would of course include keeping Crimea). He did not.

  67. 67.

    Kay

    March 2, 2022 at 7:22 pm

    An (imagined) response from the Florida students when DeSantis yells at them to take off their masks:

    David Waldman-1, of Yorktown LLC™
    @KagroX
    5h
    We were wearing them for your wife, who’s in chemotherapy, but ok, fuck you, I guess.

  68. 68.

    Suzanne

    March 2, 2022 at 7:23 pm

    @Bill Arnold: The other thing it doesn’t speak to is the Belarus photo showing a map with the plan to invade Moldova. I don’t know why that would be part of the plan if, like Mearsheimer seems to believe, Putin only wants the eastern part of Ukraine.

    I don’t think Mearsheimer is giving enough weight to the thought that Putin may feel some rush to do this.

    Not sure why the Chinese would just ask him to wait until the Olympics were over and not tell him to stop entirely if they did t want it to occur.

  69. 69.

    Calouste

    March 2, 2022 at 7:31 pm

    @debbie: It won’t stop the orders, but gun crews need training, you can’t just replace them with any conscript.

  70. 70.

    Chetan Murthy

    March 2, 2022 at 7:33 pm

    @Suzanne: maybe they wanted it to happen, in the sense that they expected it to succeed (and scare the bejesus out of taiwan, bring ’em begging for quarter) ?  They just didn’t want that “splendid little war” fucking up their little sporting event.  maybe?

  71. 71.

    Suzanne

    March 2, 2022 at 7:38 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: Eh, I think China is all in on this shit.

  72. 72.

    sab

    March 2, 2022 at 7:38 pm

    @Kay: AP is what, 30 students per high school? They will be loud, but are there enough of them to have an impact?

  73. 73.

    geg6

    March 2, 2022 at 7:45 pm

    @sab:

    OMG, you have no idea how loud those people are.  And who they are and who they know.  They’ll go batshit.  The school board will be cowering.

  74. 74.

    Professor Bigfoot

    March 2, 2022 at 7:48 pm

    @debbie: it’s not “tribal hatred” to want to kill those who are killing your children.

  75. 75.

    Lyrebird

    March 2, 2022 at 7:50 pm

    @sdhays: It’s one way to be remembered as a Russian King.

    Dayyyyummmmmmm

    Nice one!

    Seriously, I do agree with many that the sooner he is forced out the fewer people have to die for his abominable greed.

  76. 76.

    Chief Oshkosh

    March 2, 2022 at 8:06 pm

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: Just sand off the VIN and tell ’em it’s an antique that your great-uncle Vlad left you in his will.

  77. 77.

    Flanders Other Neighbor

    March 2, 2022 at 8:12 pm

    @Chief Oshkosh: Unless he’s in CA.  Better have that 50-state emissions sticker on it or no way.

  78. 78.

    Sebastian

    March 2, 2022 at 8:16 pm

    @Professor Bigfoot:

    Thank you.

  79. 79.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 8:35 pm

    @Professor Bigfoot:

    And then they turn around and hate you back and kill you. That is tribal. I’m not judging whether tribalism is good or bad. It just is. And there’s no reason to think it will ever be any different.

  80. 80.

    Lyrebird

    March 2, 2022 at 8:36 pm

    @Sebastian:

    Hugs and cross-denomination prayers:

    ((everyone Sebastian knows who went through that war))

    ((fam of Gin & Tonic))

    I just saw this from your earlier explanation:

    They just announced that they will release every POW if their mother comes to pick him up. The POWs are instructed to tell their mothers to protest, to gather as many friends and family members and protest.

    WOW.

    On all the fronts: humanitarian, strategic…

  81. 81.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 8:44 pm

    @Lyrebird:

    There should be growing numbers of protesters. This morning, the BBC reported that the police had detained children and a dog who were at the protests.

  82. 82.

    Sebastian

    March 2, 2022 at 8:48 pm

    @debbie:

    Dear Debbie, perhaps we are talking about two different things.

    What is your proposed alternative? Leave a 1-star Yelp review? “Lousy marksmanship and expired humanity. Blew Sasha’s (7) legs off and Anna (4) bled to death from shrapnel to her abdomen. Will talk to the manager.”

    It is war and the message to the other side is as follows:

    Surrender and you will be treated fairly. Your mother can pick you up.

    Meet us in battle and if you live, you will be treated fairly.

    Kill our children, our brothers, and sisters, cowardly from afar to terrorize us? You will be slaughtered alive.

  83. 83.

    Sebastian

    March 2, 2022 at 8:50 pm

    @debbie:

    The opposition is active. This is a common tactic of forcing totalitarian regimes to perform absurd actions.

    You begin by setting up, say a barrel or big box with a snarky comment. Or send a dog or children.

    This forces the regime to either not react and allow the message to take hold or, the likely response because fascists, to react as fascists do which makes them look stupid.

    Achievement unlocked.

  84. 84.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2022 at 8:51 pm

    @debbie: There will not be. The average Russian – at best – doesn’t give a shit, and more likely has listened to propaganda all their life and believes all Ukrainians are Nazis. Russian media, and especially social media, are Radio Rwanda.

    Valdimir Putin is not driving a tank or aiming an artillery battery, ordinary Russian officers and men are. They know what they are doing and are doing it willingly. The few videos you see of POW’s, or messages from KIA’s “I had no idea what we were getting into” are mostly bullshit. If you trace back their social media, most of them knew, and some were enthusiastic about the opportunity to kill Ukrainians. Putin wants to wipe out a nation. In 21st Century Europe. There’s a word for that.

  85. 85.

    a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio

    March 2, 2022 at 8:59 pm

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage:  Well, here in Tennessee you contact the county clerk to file for an abandoned vehicle title. You have to show that it is indeed abandoned. I imagine other states have similar procedures.

  86. 86.

    Professor Bigfoot

    March 2, 2022 at 9:00 pm

    @debbie: 

    So… they should roll over and let these artillerymen target civilians— including children in order to “stop the hatred?”

    Not. Gonna. Happen.

    When the aggressors get their just desserts, that ain’t “tribal hatred,” that’s justice.

  87. 87.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 9:08 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Yeah, I know that word, but I thought they would be moved when children were being detained. What a fucking world.

  88. 88.

    Origuy

    March 2, 2022 at 9:14 pm

    I was in Moscow in 2013 and I wandered into one of Russia’s most expensive shopping centers, TSUM. I was amused to find that it had a used Bentley dealership in the basement.

  89. 89.

    Kent

    March 2, 2022 at 9:17 pm

    @debbie: Right.  How come they never show his hands?

  90. 90.

    Martin

    March 2, 2022 at 9:18 pm

    @sab: Uh, 30 per HS? I hate to pull out the US News ranking stick here, because, seriously fuck those people. Two of the five variables is % of students that took an AP class, and % of students that passed an AP exam.

    ⅓ of all Florida HS graduates last year passed an AP exam. 60% took an AP exam, so at least that many took an AP course.

    Georgia Tech admits – average 7-13 AP courses. AP is pretty much the bread and butter of getting into college these days. No AP, no college you are proud to tell your friends that your kid attends. (Note: that’s completely different from whether it’s a good school that you will learn at. Nobody gives a shit about that.)

  91. 91.

    Ruckus

    March 2, 2022 at 9:19 pm

    @debbie:

    Generally the leadership doesn’t get down into the dirty work, so taking out the soldiers pretty much curtails the problems of shells flying. The officers might not even know how to work the big guns. Then again they might. Also there are not nearly the same number of officers as enlisted, so even if the try and did operate the guns there would be far less shelling.

  92. 92.

    Jay

    March 2, 2022 at 9:20 pm

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage:

    you need the make, model, colour and the Manufacturer’s serial number, found on a brass plate in the drivers compartment,

    fill out the Ukrainian DMV forms, wait in line and pay the registration fee.

  93. 93.

    Kalakal

    March 2, 2022 at 9:39 pm

    @Ruckus: Presumably they can also disable the now crewless artillery.  While more can be brought in, it adds yet more sand to the Russian logistic gearbox, which doesn’t seem to be working too well anyway.

  94. 94.

    Sebastian

    March 2, 2022 at 9:50 pm

    @debbie:

    Let’s not pile up on debbie, please.

    I believe the statement was about the movie and the tribal hatred coming from the screen and presumably also by people in front of the screen.

    At the same time a second topic, the immediate communication with the perpetrators, was discussed. We have no threads at BJ, mix-ups happen often.

     

    Yes, tribal hatred is legion and legendary. If it weren’t for nations, governments, and sports, one small city would hack folks from the neighboring small city the eyes out. Racism, tribalism, prejudice, and superstition are rampant and brutal. Religious AF, too. Let’s not lionize anyone too much. Your experience must have been quite intense and perhaps even frightening.

    Crimes, genocide, colonialism, subjugation, and exploitation are real too. Especially when the abuser is doing it right here right now. The other conversation was about the Special Forces Command issuing a statement to the murderers.

    I think we should keep those two topics apart for now as they handle entirely different situations. Let’s talk about the one on hand.

    How does Ukraine prevent another Vukovar, Sarajevo, Grozny, or Aleppo? By upping up the ante. Word spreads fast: if you behave, they’ll feed you and keep you warm. If you touch their civilians, they’ll cut your throat. Slowly.

    Abusive relationships are about exploiting the grey areas, breaking unwritten rules, slowly and intentionally until the abuser has the upper hand.

    This message brings clarity. Yes, it is drastic, as it should be considering the crime, but it is measured and limited. And it will make someone reconsider if bailing into the bushes in the dark of the night isn’t the wiser choice here. The really smart ones might even wonder how many NATO SpecOps are embedded with the Ukrainian SpecOps. (My guess is all of them?)

    The Ukrainian response is ridiculously on point for the situation. I don’t know who advises Zelenskyy but this sustained excellence of statesmanship is not random.

  95. 95.

    debbie

    March 2, 2022 at 10:03 pm

    @Sebastian:

    I don’t feel piled on. We’re talking past each other about two different facets. That’s fine. Yours is more immediate and clearly more urgent.

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