With so many people on Balloon Juice who have knowledge of the military, or war, I am guessing that I am not the only one who is not familiar with 99% of the acronyms that are being thrown around.
I checked in with Omnes to see if he might be up for putting together a list, and he’s willing to help, but he suggested that we crowd-source the job on Balloon Juice, so here we are. If there’s an acronym you want to know about, add it in the comments. If you know what any of those mean, please definite it for the rest of us.
Also, as a reward, here’s a great 7-minute piece, an interview with Bill Browder from The World. You won’t regret listening.
How Russian oligarchs act as Putin’s offshore bankers.
I’ll get the list started.
guachi
UA is the two letter code for Ukraine on, for example, the internet. So an official Ukrainian website will end in .ua.
The transliteration of of Ukraine from Ukrainian is Ukraïna so you can see why it’s .ua.
John Revolta
I only know SNAFU, and FUBAR…….but I know those extremely well.
Calouste
UA is also just the two letter country code for Ukraine. So people will use it to save typing. Same with RU for Russia.
Snoopy
“radar paint a plane” means the radar has fully identified or acquired the airplane. The implication is that the radar’s ‘light’ has covered every surface of the plane, as if you had painted it.
Wapiti
AAA is antiaircraft artillery: typically(?) gun systems
SAM would be surface to air missile systems
A Stinger is a US man-portable SAM. IIRC, in the olden days (1980s), they had a system to query Friend or Foe systems to make sure you weren’t shooting a friendly, but the missile was heat-seeking and would go for the exhaust. Planes drop flares to try to decoy such missiles.
guachi
I know what Stingers (man-portable anti-aircraft) and Javelins (man-portable AT) are but what I would like is the equivalent type of weapon used/manufactured by other countries.
Javelin (US), NLAW (UK), Panzerfaust 3 (GE) are all AT weapons.
Stinger (US), Piorun (PO) are AA weapons.
Peale
SAM = Surface to Air Missile.
Ken
> interdicted = stopped?
I think there’s sometimes a connotation of “stopped because it is in too many pieces to continue”.
> radars that “paint” any NATO planes = ??
Light them up, by being pointed at them to get range and direction. Treated as hostile because it is used in targeting.
> Stingers =
Anti-aircraft surface-to-air missile, usable by one or two people. Link.
> Javelins =
Anti-armor missile, usable by one or two people. Link.
Calouste
AAA = Anti Aircraft Artillery. Typically used for the larger, fixed or vehicle mounted guns.
Stinger = Shoulder mounted anti aircraft missile. Can be used by just 1-2 people, as it weighs about 35 pounds. Effective against helicopters and slower planes, less so against faster jets.
Javelin = Anti tank missile, similar to the Stinger. Both Stingers and Javelins are “smart” missiles, in that they will adjust their course in flight to hit the target.
WaterGirl
@Snoopy: What does it mean to “acquire” a plane?
WaterGirl
@guachi: Is AA the same as AAA?
Origuy
CCCP versus CCCP? I think one of those should be CCP, Chinese Communist Party. CCCP is the Cyrillic abbreviation of the Russian name for the USSR. I can’t be arsed to look up the full name.
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
It means the targeting system is locked onto the plane’s position and course and can (likely) hit it
WaterGirl
@guachi: What is AT?
Steeplejack
I’ll throw in here that “Zelenskyy” is apparently the preferred spelling of the Ukrainian leader’s name. Discussion here and here.
Roger Moore
The Grad system is a multiple rocket launcher. They are used in the same general situation as artillery, but they’re somewhat different. Each round is more destructive than an equivalent-sized artillery shell, because they have more explosive and less metal, but they tend to be much less accurate. Also, it’s designed so a rocket launcher truck can fire all its rockets in a very short time, resulting in a short but very intense attack. They’re great for doing massive, indiscriminate damage to a whole area too fast for the people in the area to take cover.
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
Yes, AA = Anti-aircraft to include smaller or non-artillery type weapons
SamIAm
@Steeplejack:
Thanks, I was wondering about that
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
AT = Anti-tank
WaterGirl
@SamIAm: So AA and AAA are the same thing?
SamIAm
SAM = Surface to Air Missle
AAM = Air to Air Missle
ASM = Air to Surface Missle
WaterGirl
@SamIAm:
AT means anti-tank. So… anti-tank what? Is it a missile or a gun or what?
realbtl
According to one of the boating sites I follow ships are “arrested” rather than seized. I kind of like that in the current use. Not necessarily military but we are talking so called private yachts.
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
AA is broader term that includes weapons that are not artillery (big guns).
Like missle systems. AAA is usually limited to mean artillery based anti-aircraft weapons
WaterGirl
@SamIAm: That’s not confusing! :-) What if you’re dyslexic???
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
Almost always a missle. To be effective against a tank’s armor with a gun you need something like the main gun of a tank.
Not man portable obviously.
WaterGirl
@SamIAm: So artillery = big guns?
Another Scott
@SamIAm: To elaborate:
Given how fast anti-aircraft (AA) missiles are, a pilot cannot know how many seconds they have after the enemy radar “locks onto” their plane before they might be hit. So, the “simple” act of an AA radar locking onto them is universally regarded as a hostile act.
It’s like the difference between someone else having a gun in a holster and someone pointing a gun at you.
Cheers,
Scott.
Steeplejack
The Good Soldier Švejk is a famous Czech novel from the 1920s by Jaroslav Hašek. The protagonist is “a good-humored, simple-minded, middle-aged man who pretends to be enthusiastic to serve Austria-Hungary in World War I.” It has become a cultural marker for “an unlucky and simple-minded but resourceful little man oppressed by higher authorities.” Perhaps used to refer to Russian soldiers in the current crisis?
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
The military like other technical types like their TLAs. ?
TLA = Three Letter Acronym
WaterGirl
@SamIAm:
So artillery = big guns? So a missile system = AA
And AAA = artillery based anti-aircraft weapon?
Roger Moore
@WaterGirl:
It basically means seeing it. Most radar is directional like a search light. In search mode, the radar scans across an area, taking many seconds to cover a full 360 degree picture. It can also be used in a directed mode, where it “locks on” to a subject and tries to keep the radar beam on that target all the time. “Acquiring” a target means that it’s been detected and they’re trying to keep the radar beam on it. “Locking on” means they’ve succeeded at keeping the radar beam pointing at the target. Once the radar has locked on, it can be used to steer a radar guided missile to the target, so you absolutely do not want the other guy to lock on to you.
guachi
@WaterGirl: By AA I am using it as a catch-all term for Anti-Aircraft weaponry.
AAA = Anti-Aircraft Artillery, or larger crew-served guns targeting aircraft. E.g., ZSU-57-2 (Soviet self-propelled twin-barrel 57mm AA gun – hence the 57-2)
SAM = Surface-to-Air Missile, large crew-served missiles targeting airborne targets. E.g,, Patriot
MANPADS = Man-Portable Air Defense Systems, one- or two-man systems that can be transported on foot. E.g., Stinger
WaterGirl
@SamIAm: So…
What kinds of targets would I use AA for?
What kinds of targets would I use AAA for?
Calouste
@WaterGirl: Yes. There’s also the difference that a SAM really has to hit the aircraft to do any damage, but AAA fires grenades that explode somewhere near the aircraft and the damage is done by the shrapnel (metal fragments of the grenade) hitting the aircraft at high speed. SAMs are fairly expensive $30,000 or so, individual AAA ammunition is a lot cheaper. But AAA is a larger target for the enemy to attack where a SAM can basically just be two guys on a motorbike, one to fire it, the other one ready for the getaway.
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
Usually, but as pointed out above newer artillery weapons includes rocket launch systems.
The usual rule of thumb was artillery fired non-self propelled stuff. An artillery shell gets propelled at the beginning of it’s flight and then falls to it’s target.
Missles are self propelled throughout their flight in contrast
PJ
“Good Soldier Svejk” dumb insolence throughout:
In the Good Soldier Švejk, the classic comic novel by Jaroslav Hašek, the protagonist Švejk is an ordinary pub-loving Czech drafted into the Austrian Army at the beginning of WW1. There is a question whether Švejk is a congenital idiot (as many of the superiors he encounters believe) or whether he is just playing stupid in order to save his skin, because he follows orders to the letter, rather than the intention, where it will prevent him from onerous duty or will delay going to the front. Švejk always responds deferentially (“Humbly report, Sir, . . .”), and, for the most part, how he interprets orders is technically not completely incorrect, so, for the most part, he escapes punishment. Švejk also tends to respond to anyone’s queries with rambling anecdotes that are so frustrating that superiors tend to drop whatever matter they had with him. Švejk never lets his idiot act drop when officers are around, and its only when he’s socializing with other ordinary conscripts or citizens that you see him acting with normal sense.
So in the context of the occupation of Ukraine, “Švejkian dumb insolence” would mean that Ukrainians in occupied territories respond to Russian orders or queries with answers or actions that are technically “correct”, but which are designed to frustrate Russian war aims.
ETA: It could also refer to, as Steeplejack pointed out, Russian conscripts who will do what they can to avoid putting themselves in situations where they are likely to be killed.
J R in WV
@WaterGirl:
It’s a more generic term, if you mean to include multiple platforms or intend for some unit to bring whatever they have on hand to bear against advancing tanks.
If you have more specific knowledge then you use more specific terms like Javelin, or NLAW (which stands for something Light Antitank Weapon and is a German tool) — I think all of these anti tank weapons have slightly different characteristics, like max range, ability to follow a moving target, etc.
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
No difference in the targets. Just a difference on how the weapon is delivered.
guachi
@WaterGirl: AA can be used against anything that flies. Though, of course, not every system is useful against any target. So saying something is AA would make me immediately think “against what type of flying targets?”
Can a Stinger be used against a MiG flying supersonic? What is the 9K35 Strela-10 good against?
Spanky
UF = Ukrainian Forces
RF = Russian Forces
Villago Delenda Est
@WaterGirl:
It can be both. AT guns are less common now than they were in WWII, as missiles are fire and forget and you don’t have to haul them around like an AT gun. I might also add that ADA is Air Defense Artillery, and covers the gamut of things like AAA guns, Stingers, quad 50s (four .50 cal machine guns mounted on say the back of a truck to serve as an anti-aircraft weapon).
Steeplejack
@PJ:
Good recap.
PJ
One I had to look up today was C2, which means “command and control”.
WaterGirl
@PJ: I used to work with a fellow who liked to say that when he got really made at the people above him he would “do exactly what they told me to do” even or especially if his “superiors” didn’t fully understand the situation or the implication, or when what they told him to do was foolish.
Ken
I’m surprised the producers of Gomer Pyle USMC didn’t have to give a “based on an idea by” credit to Jaroslav Hašek.
Spanky
@PJ:
There’s a whole gamut that runs up to (and through?) C5I – “Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Combat Systems, [Intelligence OR Interoperabilty] (but mostly Intelligence).
J R in WV
@WaterGirl:
AA = Anti Aircraft, it is an acronym.AA can be machine guns, like .50 BMG which stands for Browning Machine Guns
AAA = Anti Aircraft Artillery, it is also an acronym. AAA is usually firing larger explosive shells which are either fuzzed to explode at a certain height or time after firing, or have radar proximity detection and will explode when they are close to an aircraft.
Spanky
And this is what I think of when they talk of deploying Javelins.
Kayla Rudbek
@WaterGirl: the term is “malicious compliance” or “work to rule” or “Italian strike”
WaterGirl
@guachi:
I assume you are asking someone other than me!
WaterGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: so “fire and forget” means they are disposable? So you are basically leaving an inexpensive shell behind?
Or are they “refillable” in some way at a later date?
MattF
My fave military acronym is the title of a little book: DICNAVAB aka ‘Dictionary of Naval Abbreviations’.
WaterGirl
@PJ: Thanks, added to the list. Now what does “command and control” mean?
Spanky
@WaterGirl:
First paragraph in Wikipedia. The internet is your friend!
Jerzy Russian
Perhaps in the interest of being effective communicators, people could spell out every word they use. Posting here is not like an old style telegram where one was charged by the word or letter.
WaterGirl
@Spanky: Can you elaborate?
SamIAm
To fill in a couple of terms that are still blank above:
Bayrakter drones = Bayraktar TB2s
Bayrakter are UAVs (Unmanned Arial Vehicles) manufactured by Turkey. From all accounts I’ve read they are highly sophisticated and very effective.
They carry a pair of missles and the remote operator (flying it from a truck via on-board video cameras and radar) can fire at targets with the missles.
They can also be used for reconnaissance to spot Russian army movemens and to direct artillery fire
Ken
Further evidence (as if more were needed) for my theory that the world is secretly run by a cabal of cruciverbalists led by Will Shortz, who work to get crossword-friendly names into the news.
WaterGirl
@J R in WV: That’s helpful, thanks.
Ken
@Jerzy Russian: Ah, memories…
This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire civilized world. Your message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing.
Spanky
@WaterGirl: “Fire and forget” refers to the ordinance being delivered. Once it takes off/is fired, it guides itself to the target.
Other munitions might rely on wire guidance or following a laser pointed by the operator, who has to keep it on the target until impact, which ties him up during a very busy time. Fire and forget means you shoot it and go on to the next target, reload, or run away.
WaterGirl
@Kayla Rudbek: So is that sort of interchangeable with good soldier?
Spanky
@WaterGirl:
No. Much better explanations can be found in Wikipedia than I could provide by, for example, cutting and pasting from Wikipedia.
SamIAm
@guachi:
To answer your question, not really. Stingers are designed more for helicopters and other troop support aircraft.
So the target has to be low and slow. Unfortunately it takes a much more sophisticated missle system to bring down high flying or fast moving aircraft. Or other jet fighters, which thankfully Ukraine still has.
WaterGirl
@Spanky: I’m trying to save a hundred or a thousand people from all googling the same thing. Every google search takes equipment and energy in a server farm somewhere.
Gin & Tonic
The Zelenskyy with two “y”s still looks weird to those who know Ukrainian and/or Russian and have been dealing with transliteration for years, and neither of the articles Steeplejack linked really get into it. In Cyrillic, his surname ends in “кий” – endings of any of several consonants followed by “ий” are very common, but the vowel “и” is pronounced differently in Russian and Ukrainian. In Ukrainian it is like the short “i” in “hit” or “bin,” whereas in Russian it is closer to the “ee” combination in “feel.” The “й” is like the “y” in “may” in both. The combination of the short “i” followed by “y” is difficult for English-speakers and is also very uncommon (maybe non-existent) in Russian. In the past it would often be transliterated as “yj” – leaning on the Polish. More recently I’d seen it transliterated as “iy” – but that is not now preferred because it makes it seem more Russian. The “yy” is an even more recent form, which he prefers, but I find myself writing Zelensky with one “y” because I know how it’s pronounced and that spelling makes sense to me.
Almost Retired
@Ken: Exactly. Will Shortz is the only reason anyone remembers who Esai Morales is.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: No. A “good soldier” does what he’s told. Svejk tries to make it look as if he’s doing what he’s told.
Calouste
UA SAM vs RU chopper: 1-0
https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2022/mar/05/ukraine-claims-footage-shows-them-shooting-down-russian-military-helicopter-video?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
WaterGirl
@SamIAm: thank you!
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
Command and control refers to the military chain of command and the ability to relay orders to troops and get information about battlefield conditions, enemy strength, and positions back to the senior military officers.
The Dangerman
@PJ: Might be an 80’s Aero thing, but I always saw it as C^3 (or C Cubed, for Command, Control, Communication) or C^3I (add intelligence to the others).
While we are on the C’s as it applies to Putin, there are also CLE’s (career limiting errors) or CEE’s (career ending errors).
ETA: Spanky did it faster (dammit) and better (DAMMIT).
Grumpy Old Railroader
LAW = Light Antitank weapon (shoulder fired – use once and discard. Old tech from the 60’s)
NLAW = Next Generation LAW. Still shoulder fired.
It has been awhile since my Uncle Sam required extended backpacking trip in the Central Highlands of Vietnam so lots of new Acronyms.
If you don’t know your acronyms you’re SOL
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Russians love acronyms love ministries.
GB = Russian Ground Forces (their army)
Spetsnaz = Special Forces of the Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces (incidentally every Russian military that can has its own Spetsnaz)
The following three have their own combat aircraft and apparently involved in the war.
VVS = Russian Air force.
KVS = Russian Aerospace Forces
VMF= Military Maritime Fleet (Russian Navy)
Russians can’t have too many spy and state police agencies. I imagine we will be hearing a lot of about these in the next few weeks after Adam’s post last night Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
GRU = Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation
FSB = Russians Security Service. (equivalent to the FBI)
SVR = Foreign Intelligence Service (equivalent to the CIA)
MVD Ministry of Internal Affairs
Librarian
Zaporizhia is not to be confused with Zaporozhets, which was the name of a Soviet car model.
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
RF = Russian Forces
UF = Ukrainian Forces
WaterGirl
@The Dangerman: Yeah, but you supplied a detail that he hadn’t.
Eric NNY
I didn’t scroll through but:
MLRS: Multiple Launch(ing) Rocket System
Russia has a shit ton of them.
WaterGirl
@Grumpy Old Railroader:
So they are both shoulder-fired? And are both used once and discarded?
So how is NLAW different – besides being newer. Different capabilities?
WaterGirl
@Eric NNY: So they can just fire one and another after another?
SamIAm
deleted
The Dangerman
Just to confuse, then there are the Acronyms that are sensitive to usage; C4 is either an explosive or the Trident 1 delivery system. Trident 2 is D5. Why the switch from C to D? Hell if I know.
SamIAm
@WaterGirl:
See Spanky’s explanation at 62.
WaterGirl
What about “tankies”? Is that interchangeable with russian?
Spanky
The US Department of Defense Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms[7] defines command and control as: “The exercise of authority and direction by a properly designated commander over assigned and attached forces in the accomplishment of the mission. Also called C2. Source: JP 1”.[8]
Frank Wilhoit
@Gin & Tonic: Go you. You are using a different alphabet. There is no such thing as exact transliteration any more than exact translation.
Steeplejack
@WaterGirl:
In the simplest terms, it’s management. You decide what needs to be done, you marshal your resources to do it (command), and then you manage (control) the process.
WaterGirl
@SamIAm: Got it! I have been concentrating on copying information for organization in some standard format for later.
For the moment, more copying than information retention. :-)
Looking forward to the next step.
Gin & Tonic
@Librarian: Zaporizhzhia is another one for the transliteration files. The Cyrillic spelling is Запоріжжя. Пороги (porohy) are rapids, and the city was past (downstream of) the rapids (they no longer exist due to hydro projects, but everyone knows where they were.) So you can say “za porohamy” (za porohamy) to mean “past the rapids” but turning it into a proper name using correct declensions turns it into запоріжжя – the letter “ж” is a consonant most often transliterated as “zh,” which doesn’t have a direct analogue in English, but it’s doubled there, so odd as it may look, I think the city should be spelled with the “zhzh” pair
ETA: Oh, and Zaporozhets, in addition to being an old crappy car, referred to someone from that area, typically a Cossack.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: Tankies are pro-Russian westerners, European or American. They supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956.
Steeplejack
@SamIAm:
It’s missiles, not missles.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: That had always been my understanding of good soldier, but wondered if that was wrong.
So two different concepts were being discussed.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: thank you! the google was not that clear.
Villago Delenda Est
@WaterGirl:
Spanky covered it. Back when I was preparing to fight the Soviets in the Fulda Gap, we didn’t have fire and forget weapons, we had wire guided weapons that required the operator to sit there, exposed, while the missile flew toward the target. The TOW (Tube-launched, Optically-tracked, Wire-guided) is the Cold War example of this. Things have gotten much better now with fire and forget systems.
WaterGirl
@Steeplejack: Really great information, though!
WaterGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: So it’s like the “set it and forget it” chicken rotisseries they used to hawk on TV.
Except for the war as opposed to yummy smelling chicken, of course.
Villago Delenda Est
@Spanky: Toss in communications, and it’s C3. “Move, Shoot, Communicate”: the three basics of the battlefield. The Russians are having problems with all three due to shitty logistical preparation.
Villago Delenda Est
@WaterGirl: Prezactly. Makes taking out tanks much more survivable. Of course, if you’re LTC Kilgore, you love the smell of napalm, so a burning tank is a close parallel.
WaterGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: Much safer now!
Steeplejack
@Gin & Tonic:
The articles seem to indicate that “Zelenskyy” is more overtly “Ukrainian,” which is why he now prefers it. Isn’t that in line with “Kyiv,” “Kharkiv,” etc.?
PJ
@WaterGirl: The title of the novel, The Good Soldier Švejk, is meant ironically. We often say that someone who follows orders well, but without thinking of a larger picture or moral component, is a “good soldier”, but is Švejk, who is plausibly following orders exactly, but who doesn’t want to be killed and doesn’t want to kill anyone, a “good” soldier?
Spanky
@Villago Delenda Est: TOWs! That’s the term I couldn’t remember.
Somewhere, there’s a picture of an intact Israeli tank during the ’73 war with half a dozen wires draped over it. Misses, all.
WaterGirl
Did anyone listen to the 7-minute audio linked up top?
Bill Browder seems to think that if we seriously targeted 50-100 of the top oligarchs is the best way to beat Putin – that we could cripple Putin in pretty short order.
Wapiti
@WaterGirl: The Javelin apparently has a missile/tube that weighs 33 pounds and a CLU (command launch unit??) that weighs 15 pounds. So after firing one round, the operator/team can take the CLU off of the expended missile tube and put it on another missile tube. I’ve no idea how long this takes; but minutes not hours.
The teams are going to be limited by how many 33 pound reloads they can carry, in addition to all of their other gear.
WaterGirl
@Wapiti: That’s super helpful, thanks.
Villago Delenda Est
@PJ: Epitomized by an NCO screaming that the soldier did EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS TOLD TO DO! Soldiers who show some initiative are much prized by leadership.
Kelly
Another Ukrainian secret weapon
https://twitter.com/Seb1day/status/1499777413550649350
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: Yes, a MLRS can be reloaded. The BM-21 Grad is an infamous Russian example. It’s an impressive sight to see them fired quickly (in various videos).
Someone here made the point that they require a lot of support trucks for carrying and loading the missiles in the tubes. And since Russia apparently didn’t plan for actually having a war that lasted more than a couple of days, they apparently don’t actually have the trucks and equipment and spare missiles to reload them.
So, their actual effectiveness may be severely limited once they are fired once. (Once they are fired, Ukraine will know exactly where they are (if they don’t already) and try to destroy them.)
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
SamIAm
@Steeplejack:
Arrgghhh!
Kirk Spencer
@WaterGirl:
Don’t see this answered, (eta oops, missed that set of answers) so:LAW is an oversized bottle rocket.
NLAW is self-guided after tracking lockon. (translation, you look at your target through the eyesight until you get a signal, then fire. Stingers do this too.)
NLAW also has a range advantage (a whole football field/soccer field of range now), a better warhead, and a couple of nifty tricks like “overfly attack” (It doesn’t have to hit the armor facing you. Instead it goes over the vehicle and shoots down at the top. More chance of missing, not as much force, but the armor is so much thinner on top it’s a big win.)
Geminid
Let’s not forget the OODA Loop!
Gin & Tonic
@Steeplejack: Probably, although it seems a little weird. Kyiv is more correct, IMO, but Kharkiv has always been Kharkiv.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kirk Spencer: I actually fired a LAW at ROTC summer camp. It was a blast. Almost as much of a rush as firing a .50 cal. Even though firing a 105mm Howitzer is much more destructive, you don’t have the same tactile experience as a .50 cal.
Villago Delenda Est
@Another Scott: In WWII the rocket systems were called “Stalin Organs”, often mounted on a Studebaker chassis.
A couple of days ago Omnes mentioned that he was cringing at how sloppy Russian artillery execution was, as only a US Army redleg (Artillery man) can do. He thinks the Ukrainians have plenty of counterbattery fire opportunities, which can’t do much good for Russian morale.
JoyceH
It’s not military, but something I got curious about and looked into. That strange sigil that shows up in a repeating pattern as a backdrop when Zelenskyy makes video statements. Turns out that’s the ‘tryzub’, the central mark on the Ukrainian coat of arms. Originally the coat of arms of Volodymyr The Great (980 AD), first Grand Prince of Kyiv, some debate on what it’s supposed to be – top contenders are a trident or a stylized falcon. So now you know – and can casually name-check the tryzub in conversations. Impress your friends!
Steeplejack
@Gin & Tonic:
I remember “Kharkov” from World War II history and (translated) Russian literature.
Villago Delenda Est
@Gin & Tonic: Kharkiv used to be Kharkov, at least in the West (to include Germany during WWII).
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: That does help, thanks.
So does only russia have the MLRS systems?
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: No, they’re old technology and just about every country that wants them has had them. Wikipedia has a list.
Thanks for putting this together.
Cheers,
Scott.
SamIAm
@Steeplejack:
Hey, I’m only on my first gallon of coffee. I think it’s highly unfair to expect basic proof reading at this point.
Villago Delenda Est
@WaterGirl: The US has an MLRS system, it’s mounted on a tracked vehicle and can send “ripples” of up to 12 rockets down range in one firing. It has two pods containing six rockets each, and a variety of munition types can be used.
debbie
@Villago Delenda Est:
No chance that lousy targeting wasn’t intentional? Seems it would be an effortless way to terrorize civilians.
Villago Delenda Est
@SamIAm: Spell check bogarting on you?
Kirk Spencer
Military staff positions are function based and there’s a tendency to refer to the function in action by the position.
Nato uses a letter-number system. The letter tells you the level of staff, the number tells you the function.
J is for joint (army-air force for example). Ground oriented forces (army and marine) use G for general staff (staff that answers to a general) and S for field staff (staff that answers to a colonel or lieutenant colonel — aka field grade officers). It’s been a while so I don’t recall the rest such as navy and multi-national.
1 is for personnel. 2 is for intelligence (information, not brilliance). 3 is for operations. 4 is logistics. General and higher staff will also have 5-9: 5 is plans, 6 is signals, 7 is military education, 8 is finance, and 9 is civil affairs. If a field command has to operate independently 5, 6, and 9 fall under operations, while 7 and 8 go under personnel.
So “it’s a 2 shop job” is it’s an intelligence function. eta J2/G2/S2 etc.
Villago Delenda Est
@debbie: The rocket systems are pretty much a terror weapon by definition. The optimal use is to rain rockets on disorganized, demoralized infantry to make them even more disorganized and demoralized. So, yeah, raining them on civilians is par for the course.
Steeplejack
@SamIAm:
Wasn’t trying to get on you too much, but . . . once or twice is a typo, but repeatedly is ?.
At least you didn’t hit ordinance for ordnance. And I’m praying that nobody brings up Nickelback/Nickleback in this thread.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kirk Spencer: Succinct and accurate. I was an S1 at one point, I also was an assistant S3, and as the Signals officer worked for either the S3 or the unit XO. I also worked in the J6 in Honduras as one of the assistants to the primary. I was also a G1 Plans officer.
Kirk Spencer
@Steeplejack:
So you did it for us? ;)
Ruckus
@Villago Delenda Est:
I didn’t find this to be true for sailors… I have stories. I was an E5 and senior rank in the department. Of course at the time the leader was an O-1 fresh out of he actually knows how to put on the uniform school.
UncleEbeneezer
After years of curiosity just stumbled on a place serving Pliny the Younger IPA. Meh…tasty but definitely WAY overhyped. Of the elite IPAs, Alchemist’s Heady Topper is better. But honestly I can think of dozens of IPAs that are better, imo.
Kirk Spencer
@Villago Delenda Est: I’m about to rabbit hole, but when were you in Honduras? Camp Blackjack?
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: So do you think our side is using them in Ukraine? And by our side, I mean Ukraine
Never mind, answered at #122!
Villago Delenda Est
@Kirk Spencer: JTF-B, Palmerola, 1985. Six months of TDY, one of the best times I ever had. I could get satellite time on demand for portable satellite radios, unlike waiting forever like we did back at Ft. Lewis. Our unofficial unit song was “Lawyers, Guns and Money.” The CO loved that song.
Kirk Spencer
@Villago Delenda Est: We just missed each other in time. I had a few months there in 87-88 as part of the pathfinder detachment.
Roger Moore
@The Dangerman:
The navy did a weird thing with their missile codes. The Polaris was the A series: A1, A2, A3. Poseidon was the B series, but for some reason started (and ended) with B3. The first version of the Trident was C4 because that naturally comes after B3. The Trident II was practically a new missile, so it was made D5 instead of C5.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kirk Spencer:
In that time frame I was in Korea.
Steeplejack
@Kirk Spencer:
Preëmptive strike.
Raven
WETSU
we eat this shit up
not an acronym but Field Expediency is germane
Villago Delenda Est
@Raven: Similar to “my fun meter is pegged!”
Kirk Spencer
Watergirl,
Unpacking a couple of militarisms in
@Villago Delenda Est‘s post:
JTF is Joint Task Force (see Joint in my earlier post), B is just a designation.
TDY is temporary duty.
Raven
@Villago Delenda Est: ding
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
Except when people are talking about the WWII battle, which seems to be described as the Battle of Kharkov.
Raven
Here’s an obscure one”KATUSA” . Korean Augmentation to the United States Army. Korean troops filling slots in under strength US Units.
SamIAm
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yeah, looks like my phone decided to add that spelling to the internal dictionary.
WaterGirl
@Kirk Spencer: TDY I actually know because several lifetimes ago I worked for an IT group whose primary client was the Army Corp of Engineeers.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kirk Spencer: When I went home on leave, I’d have to ask my parents to be patient with my military jargon. Fortunately, my dad was in the Coast Guard in WWII, and my mom worked for some defense contractor outfit on Long Island, so they knew a lot of the basic lingo like TDY that I tend to throw around carelessly, you know how it is.
Villago Delenda Est
@Raven: Koreans LOVED to be KATUSAs because the living conditions were vastly superior with US troops than with the ROK Army. I was in Yongsan, as you know from a previous post, and our KATUSAs were close to home…too close by their parents’ reckoning.
Roger Moore
@UncleEbeneezer:
I’ve had Younger a few times, and it’s never justified the hype in my mind. I enjoy the Younger event at my local pub, but that’s as much because it’s an excuse to hang out at the pub starting at opening time until they finally tap the keg 4 hours later. I think I prefer Elder, anyway.
Kelly
The guy that started the “Russia equipped their army with shitty tires” discussion has a brief thread and comments chime in on the state of Ukrainian roads. TLDR Ukraine’s roads are dissolving under heavy traffic and battle damage. Russia hasn’t much road repair supplies or equipment available.
https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1500157619301978115
Raven
@Villago Delenda Est: Hell yes they did. Even though they had their own NCO in our unit, and he was mean as a snake, it was way better duty. Ever see “Silmido”? It’s a story about the South Korean unit that trained to go North after the Blue House Raid. We were out sweeping trying to intercept the Raiders headed back after the shootout. Good thing we didn’t find any.
Marc
Sadly, I’m one of those people who are fascinated (and horrified) by the lengths humans will go to to kill each other. Some relevant acronyms that I don’t think have cropped up, yet:
This all relates back to the concept of “locking-on” to a target aircraft to launch a radar guided SAM. If that aircraft happens to equipped with the proper ECM gear, it can detect it and immediately launch a high-speed ARM that will home-in on the targeting radar signal (traditionally ground-based, but these days it could be an AEWC aircraft). With the targeting radar disabled (or turned off) traditional radar-guided SAMs can’t be launched. SEAD is an essential part of US and NATO doctrine, ECM/ARM equipped fighters will always precede any larger air strikes. I would assume the same for Russian forces. Hence, the emphasis on supplying shoulder fired and truck mounted passive infra-red homing missiles. No targeting radar (warning can come from elsewhere, say NATO AEWC aircraft), no ARM target.
Ryan
Don’t forget Ghost of Kyiv.
Sebastian
Armored Vehicles:
MTB Main Battle Tank. Tracked (not wheeled) heavily armored vehicle with turret and high caliber gun. Russian models start with a T- and a number roughly indicating the year the design started. T-72, T-80, T-90 are the most current models.
APC Armored Personnel Carrier. Usually wheeled (6 or more wheels) armored vehicle for carrying infantry in a combat area. They usually have some sort of medium sized armament such as medium to heavy machine guns and grenade launchers. The Russian APCs begin with MTB-
APCs come in many variations and functions such as field medic units, radio, electronic warfare, or others.
Gin & Tonic
@Kelly: Outside of a few major highways in and around the larger cities, Ukrainian roads are terrible. You really have no idea. They’ll manage cars and light trucks going slowly, but really are best suited for horses in many cases.
Sebastian
Planes:
The two largest Russian manufacturers are Mikoyan and Sukhoi, and models can be identified as MiG- and Su-
MiGs are usually fighters whereas Sukhois are generally fighter-bombers for close air support, the Su-30 being the exception.
Russian military helicopters are identified by Mil Mi-(number) and include transport helicopters as well as gunships (heavy helicopters with wings for weapon platforms)
Another Scott
An American diplomatic plane is just taking off from Rzeszow, Poland. I don’t know if it’s MVP Harris’s plane or something else. Heading SW at the moment.
https://www.flightradar24.com/SAM497/2b0995f9
Cheers,
Scott.
CROAKER
BMP stands for boevaya mashina pehoty (боевая машина пехоты, literally “infantry combat vehicle”)
WaterGirl
What is a SAM belt?
Kirk Spencer
@Sebastian: Add the AFV/IFV. Armored fighting vehicle/Infantry fighting vehicle. It’s an APC that has a “light” gun, and instead of just being a battlefield taxi like the M113 it’s meant to act like a light tank in support of the infantry on the ground.
M113 is the tracked APC that the US army used from the 1960s through, well, I think there are still a handful in the reserves.
Sebastian
Sebastian
@CROAKER:
Yes, thank you, my bad. I destroyed so many of those playing “Gunship” I should really know better.
Villago Delenda Est
@WaterGirl: It’s the physical space in which surface to air missiles are deployed, usually in a circle around high value targets like headquarters and critical supply depots, to protect them from air attack.
Uncle Cosmo
From my days working for a defense contractor, frequently tasked with writing proposals and reports, I recall that best form for using acronyms was to write out a term in full at first use, with the acronym immediately following in parentheses. After that the acronym could be used with wreckless ;^D abandon within the document.
Another technique was to attach a Table of Acronyms (or Abbreviations) as a preface or appendix to the document; again, best practice was to footnote the existence of such a TOA ;^D at the first appearance of an acronym.
I have in the past gotten a mite annoyed at Jackals who sprinkle their posts with acronyms borrowed (or worse, self-created) and can’t be bothered to define them, expecting their readers to figure them out on their own. IMHO (see what I did there?) that is lazy, arrogant and/or downright offensive. YMMV (;^D)
marcopolo
@WaterGirl: I think this would refer to lining up a whole lot of SAM batteries/units (i.e. they are a belt) around whatever you were trying to protect from missile/aircraft attacks.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kirk Spencer: M113s have been replaced by M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicles in front line units. Also you have new fangled wheeled vehicles like the Stryker serving the same general purpose, as a lower weight alternative to the M2.
Gin & Tonic
Here are some classy photos for you ex-mil types.
Gin & Tonic
@Uncle Cosmo: Any sentient being on the internet knows what IMHO is. To bring it back to this context, I remember the first time I saw an internet post of some sort from a Ukrainian that said something, something, ІМХО.
Gin & Tonic
@Another Scott: Isn’t Blinken in Poland today?
Villago Delenda Est
This might be helpful in figuring out what the hell people are saying on the radio, which usually translates to real life a lot. For example, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is the polite (and proper, no profanities allowed!) on a military radio for the iconic WTF? As in “Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?”
WaterGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: @marcopolo: thank you!
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: I believe the VP is also in Poland and one other country (but I have forgotten which one). Maybe she and Sec Blinken are traveling together? That would make sense.
Villago Delenda Est
@Gin & Tonic: Improvisation is always welcome, although having adequate security in the form of armed soldiers is probably a better thing. They’ve got convoys running that are just begging to be ambushed.
UncleEbeneezer
@Roger Moore: Yeah, I think Elder is better too, though it’s been a couple years since I had it.
WaterGirl
I really appreciate all the info and clarification that people supplied in this thread. Thanks so much!
I will check back later for any stray additions.
Another Scott
@Gin & Tonic: Bingo. Blinken on travel March 3 – 8.
Harris will be in Europe next week.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Uncle Cosmo
Also known as (AKA) “Katyusha,” after a well-loved song of the day in which “little Katie” thinks of her honey off soldiering. (I suggested calling them “Ptui!n’s Organs” but the associated visual is probably too horrible to contemplate…)
A couple of days back I opined that if NATO could pass along real-time targeting info for massed artillery/MLRS systems, the Ukrainians ought to throw in a dozen Turkish drones and blast the shit of one of those groupings. My guess is that the artillerymen, sitting way back & protected by infantry, laugh off the UA special forces’ threat to “slit their throats,” but none of them will be laughing after concentrated drone strikes wipe out one of their units – the word will spread quickly amongst the survivors.
Lyrebird
@Origuy:
C soviet
CC socialist
P republic
So the former Soviat republics used to all have CCP after their names. I don’t want to provide examples since it’s a painful association in most cases. But yeah it’s weird to see that used for a whole different country.
pardon typos
debbie
@Gin & Tonic:
Nice trick with the elevator.
CROAKER
@Sebastian: No – don’t take it that way “” adding context to MBMP –
I have stayed away from modern and mostly play tabletop miniatures rather than PC.
APCs are a motive hit nightmare in Battletech. It is easy to see why in real life they are death trap.
CROAKER
Good ones – Countermeasures and Jerrycans
Gin & Tonic
@Uncle Cosmo: I am suspecting that Ukrainian anti-aircraft batteries are getting real-time information from US AWACS over Poland. They have reportedly been very successful, and Russians don’t seem to be doing that much from the air.
Calouste
@Uncle Cosmo: I saw a video a day or two ago of what was allegedly a Ukrainian drone hitting a Russian rocket launcher. It was a pretty big blast.
Kelly
@Gin & Tonic: So Russian logistics problems are going to get worse.
My Dad built several thousand miles of gravel logging road and got me summer jobs on the road crews when I was in college. Maintaining a gravel road for heavy vehicles is very straightforward if you have crushed rock and a piece of equipment with suitable blade. Appears the Russians have neither.
Geminid
@Calouste: I saw that video or one like it. I think the vehicle hit was a rocket launcher, and the exploding ordinance made for an extra large explosion. Other Bayraktar(sp?) video show smaller explosions. I think I read that the missiles weigh ~35 lbs. including the warhead.
Another Scott
The Ukrainians are serious about taking advantage of all of their strengths.
(via oryx…)
Cheers,
Scott.
Sebastian
@Geminid:
The Bayraktars have various types of rockets, depending on the generation. However, the Ukrainians have another, a homebuilt, drone. It has a wingspan of only 10ft or even less, is electric and thus silent and super cheap. It carries a 3 or 6 lbs (I forgot if it was kilos or pounds) and is perfect to blow up ammo or fuel trucks.
Sebastian
This is the second tweet I have seen claiming Turkish SF are in or on their way to Ukraine. This can’t be true, can it? Turkey is a NATO country.
Kent
Here is a famous quote by Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord of the German General Staff (and opponent of Hitler):
Calouste
@Sebastian: I wonder if there are already instruction videos on how to convert an average $99 drone into a flying Molotov cocktail launcher.
prostratedragon
Wikipedia has a list of acronyms that has about everything here, even SOL. Won’t help you with nonacronyms like “stinger” of course.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._government_and_military_acronyms
catclub
@Sebastian:
On which side? Turkey is not the staunchest NATO member.
Martin
@Gin & Tonic: AWACS = Airborne Warning & Control System
They’re essentially modified commercial aircraft with a big spinning UFO looking thing on the roof (the radar). They’ll sometimes be referenced as E-3 or E-3A, which is the aircraft designation (make and model, essentially) or sometimes by their codenames since there are relatively few of them.
These can be flown either by the US or by NATO. They can view a battlefield from hundreds of miles away, so they’re currently loitering around Poland down to Romania. They specialize in seeing the battlefield and communicating that information in real-time to ground units and command groups. They can mid-air refuel and are deployed to provide continuous vision of the battlefield.
Based on how effective Ukraine is being, this system seems to be working VERY well.
Martin
@catclub: Turkey has been providing Ukraine with their drones. Also some other weapons. They’re solid. They’ve been making regular deliveries.
eachother
In my trade I had to know the descriptions, sizes, trade names, nicknames, and code applications for too many parts to count.
I had the honor to know a retired Navy guy at the supply house that knew by heart every one of those descriptions and their invoice numbers.
Martin
@Geminid: Yeah, that’s part of the design of anti-armor munitions. You don’t need to fully destroy the tank, just get the rounds inside the tank to go off, because that contained explosion will take care of the rest. Same for almost any offensive weapon, fuel truck, ammunition resupply vehicle, etc.
James E Powell
@guachi:
This is, without question, my favorite military acronym of this era and a contender for all time favorite.
Because it sounds like something SNL did a skit about way back in the day. I think they were called Peenie Pads.
Sister Golden Bear
@Another Scott:
Can’t find it at the moment, but there was an interesting Twitter thread from someone who had commanded a US MLRS unit.
One downside is that rockets (along with artillery shells) are big, bulky and harder to transport. The BLM-21 Grad fires 40 rockets per salvo, so that’s a lot of rockets that need to be resupplied. Especially relevant since the Russian army is an “artillery first” one, typically with >2x as many artillery/rocket units as the equivalent US Army brigade.
He also gave a better sense of how important logistics are. His unit had nine MRLS launchers, each with three solders per launcher. Who in turn required 270 additional soldiers and 57 vehicles to support them. (Command and control staff, mechanics, armorers, drivers, cooks, supply staff, etc. etc. Command and control vehicles, ammo supply trucks, regular supply trucks, fuel trucks, a “vehicle recovery” truck, lots of Humvees to move people around, etc. etc.)
Kelly
@Sister Golden Bear: Markos Moulitsas, yeah Daily Kos
Another Scott
@eachother: Given enough time, humans seem to be really good with alphanumerics. I remember going with a friend to a Ford dealership in the late 70s looking for a carburetor part for his 428 CobraJet Mustang. The parts counter guy called out to some other guy that he needed a (made up) 1F3J1708G and the other guy brought one up in less than a minute.
Expertise is an amazing thing.
Cheers,
Scott.
LongHairedWeirdo
@WaterGirl: I could be wrong, but I think “AT” just means “this weapon isn’t worthless against a tank.” For example, I heard of a “recoil-less rifle” with a 105 designation, meaning (I guessed, correctly) fired a 105mm rocket. Rocket, because it was unguided, and rifle, because it had a rifled barrel – it would fire straight, as expected from a rifle. Rockets don’t have recoil, because there’s no explosion affecting the main gun barrel, pushing a bullet out of it. So: a recoil-less rifle was a sort of point and shoot AT weapon. (Keeping in mind, blowing the tracks off a tank might be all you need to turn it into a “no longer moving” foxhole.)
If it’s guided, it’s a “missile” instead of a “rocket”. I think that drains (but hopefully doesn’t overextend) my military knowledge.
Kelly
Pretty sure I’ve seen video of cheap drones delivering grenades a few years ago. Don’t remember where.
Saw pictures from Ukraine of simple Molotov cocktail slingshot/crossbow looking inventions.
LongHairedWeirdo
@SamIAm: Don’t forget: there’s also the extended TLA, or ETLA, for four letter acronyms, and, of course, the HETLA, or Hyper Extended Three Letter Acronym, for when 5 letters are needed.
Like
B
I
N
G
O, and Bingo was his name-oh.
(I have no shame, and make no apologies.)
LongHairedWeirdo
@James E Powell: “Good for the last drop.”
I believe you’re correct. It is also weird to grow up with CFS, and watch in mounting horror, as some *very* strange commercial unfolds, until my older sister scornfully told me it was just a skit (a word I knew from cub scouts).
CROAKER
Okay PPC – Particle Projector Cannon
(or PPC) is an energy weapon, firing a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target with damage resulting from both thermal and kinetic energy.[4] Despite being an energy weapon, it does produce recoil. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of higher-caliber autocannons; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize nearly two tons of standard military-grade armor.[5] Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors.[6] The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat, the earlier prototype versions (produced between 2439 and 2460) even more so.
PPCs are equipped with a field inhibitor to prevent feedback that could damage the firing unit’s electronic systems.[7] This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range.
Heat issues but they do Tons of Damage.
Another Scott
@CROAKER: Heh.
Charged particle beams are impractical, especially on planets with significant magnetic fields. (From 1979)
;-)
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
CROAKER
@Another Scott: I hope you can sleep at night you crusher of little girls dreams….
Omnes Omnibus
Hey WG, see why I said it was a bit big for one dude?
stinger
The Good Soldier is also a novel by Ford Madox Ford, made into a BBC movie starring the great Jeremy Brett. John Ratzenberger (Cheers‘ Cliff Clavin) has a small role.
Kalakal
Parachute Jumps
HALO High Altitude (exiting plane) High Opening (of parachute)
HAHO High Altitude Low Opening
LALO Low Altitude Low Opening – really risky
Geminid
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ve had to participate in this thread sparingly. When I get too involved I start to get SAD.*
*Severe Acronym Disphoria.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Maaay-beeee. :-)
Seanly
All those memes about SEAD had me scratching my head. I looked it up, but will let our military folks discuss it. I figured it had something to do w/ air superiority so I wasn’t quite right…
Omnes Omnibus
@Kalakal: And the most common: Static Line. Jump at 1200-1500 ft (400-500m). A line hooked to the plane deploys your ‘chute (if all goes well, there are songs about the other result. Gory, gory, what a hell of a way to die).
Sebastian
@catclub:
Ukrainian side. Turkish, US, and Ukrainian Marines have conducted joint exercises a few years ago. There might be more recent exercises.
https://www.dvidshub.net/image/3594792/us-marines-ukrainian-marines-and-turkish-marines-conduct-amphibious-beach-assault-during-sea-breeze-17
dexwood
Way late, killing a minute before a bit of housekeeping for the 94 year old parents, but I do hope Raven’s FIDO has been included here. Be well tonight balloon juice.
Sebastian
@Sister Golden Bear:
*raises hand* I think it’s two separate articles. The MLRS Battery is on DailyKos. Someone was so kind to link to it but I don’t remember when. The resupply truck count is one of the Krugman articles Adam linked to yesterday or the day before.
There might of course be an amalgamation article or thread on Twitter already.
Sebastian
@Omnes Omnibus:
Omnes!
Can you comment on the sorry state of the Russian tehnika and what outcomes the lack of maintenance will cause?
How quickly can Ukraine fix up that gear and use it in combat?
Omnes Omnibus
@Sister Golden Bear: My battery of slow firing but deadly accurate 203 mm howitzers could exhaust our basic load* in less than a half hour if called upon to do so. Resupply is absolutely vital. Usually the idea was not to fire more than three volleys** any location and then move to avoid counter-battery fire***.
*Basic Load – the initial ammunition stock that you carry when starting out.
**Volley – send a shot down range, could one or more guns firing at once.
***Counter-battery fire – artillery fire designed to take out enemy artillery.
Do I need to define artillery? Serious question.
Omnes Omnibus
@Sebastian: I can say something when I get home and am not typing on my phone. Maybe in an hour or so….
Sebastian
Galeev has a great thread about the Russian economy.
raven
No Holly, Mrs Krzyzewski did not LIVE in the DMZ when Mike was “deployed”!
Another Scott
Excellent.
Cheers,
Scott.
debbie
@stinger:
Loved both the novel and the film!
Sebastian
@Omnes Omnibus:
Take your time.
I’d like to remind everyone that you were one of the first people to point out that something is fishy with the Russian hardware.
Together with all the other knowledgeable folks here and on Twitter, BJ was able to predict a much more realistic analysis of this conflict, whereas the MSM was still talking about the imminent fall of Kyiv up to yesterday. Some still haven’t realized what’s really happening.
Villago Delenda Est
AKA shoot and scoot.
debbie
@Another Scott:
I would bet that’s less fake than this:
debbie
@Villago Delenda Est:
Can you scoot with a howitzer?
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: Shoot, move, and communicate, baby!
Kalakal
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh yes, the original. Paratroopers have a much tougher time than civilian ones due to all the extra equipment they carry.
Omnes Omnibus
@debbie: Abso-fucking-lutely.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: Did you know ”
The Army Organization Act of 1950 consolidated Coast and Field Artillery to form the Artillery Arm, and the crossed field guns was redesignated as the Artillery branch insignia on 19 Dec 1950. This insignia was superseded on 2 January 1957 by a new insignia consisting of crossed field guns surmounted by a missile, all gold.
On 20 June 1968, Air Defense Artillery (ADA) was established as a basic branch of the Army and on 1 December 1968, the ADA branch was authorized to retain the former Artillery insignia, crossed field guns with missile.”
So we had the missile on our stuff and they changed it while I was in it. It was also the year that they changed from service numbers to Social Security numbers. I think they have gone back now.
Another Scott
(Insert joke about tactical pickles.)
Cheers,
Scott.
raven
@debbie: This is a home movie from my unit in Korea,67-68. At about 10 minutes you can see our 105’s firing in the cold ass winter snow!
debbie
@Another Scott:
Brilliant!
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: I have an older cousin who was an FA officer out of OCS who was in VN and had that brass on his collar for a while. He came to Benning and swore me in at my commissioning. Retired as an LTC.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: Nice! Did he “pin” your jump wings?
debbie
@raven:
That’s a big fucking gun.
raven
@debbie: They are small as howitzers go.
Villago Delenda Est
@debbie: Lindell: what an imbecile, what an ultra maroon!
debbie
@Villago Delenda Est:
Impossible to parody!
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes, please.
Raven
@WaterGirl: the king of battle
Raven
@Raven: Artillery has been dubbed the “King of Battle” for its destructive power. During the two world wars, the majority of American casualties were the result of enemy forces hurling explosive shells toward the U.S. lines.May 11, 2002
debbie
Raven
@Raven: Artillery has been dubbed the “King of Battle” for its destructive power. During the two world wars, the majority of American casualties were the result of enemy forces hurling explosive shells toward the U.S. lines.
Another Scott
@Gin & Tonic: This seems to illustrate what you’re telling us about the roads…
Yikes.
Cheers,
Scott.
Geminid
@Raven: I read that after the European campaign of the Second World War ended, General George Patton said that “everyone knew” that American artillery won that campaign. This was one area where the American Army had an advantage over the Germans.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: As I once intoned at a St. Barbara’s Day dinner, when the Divarty XO made a sneering reference to the Signal Corps, “you can talk about us, but you can’t talk without us.”
Villago Delenda Est
@Geminid: As I mentioned a few days ago, the US Army invented the most sophisticated indirect fire process on the planet, and continues to this day to be the model other armies’ artillery aspires to.
CROAKER
@raven: Wow … you were there during a pretty crazy time
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: Nope, he was a leg. I got my wings later anyway. My mom and dad pinned in my bars though.
Sebastian
@Villago Delenda Est:
I had no idea. Can you link?
PJ
What does the “Z” the Russians are putting on their vehicles mean? I have also seen on the twitters a video where scary looking Russian civilians are wearing black shirts (no joke) featuring it.
phein63
@LongHairedWeirdo: It’s recoilless because it is open on the rear end. Just like with a LAW, you need to check behind you and have the assistant gunner declare “Backblast area clear!” before you fire. I was in a weapons squad in an airborne infantry unit in Alaska, and we couldn’t have wire-guided munitions (TOWs [tube-launched, optically-tracked, wire-guided], Dragons) due to the climate, so we had a set of 90mm recoilless rifles in the armory. Thank god they never made us hump those things during ARTEPs (Army Training and Evaluation Program) exercises.
Sebastian
@PJ:
To which train they belong to. Russians ship everything by train.
Z, Z in a box, O, V, X, A
are for
Eastern Military District
Russian army stationed in Crimea
Russian army stationed in Belarus
Russian Naval Infantry
Kadyrov Chechnya
Alpha Ground Special Forces
respectively. I need to double check, I might have it wrong.
Omnes Omnibus
@Sebastian: Okay, the short answer is I don’t know. The longer answer is why I don’t know. Most of the abandoned equipment will fall into a few categories. First, stuff that is just out of fuel or just needs commonly available parts like glow plugs and an oil change. Those could be checked for booby traps and potentially turned around quickly. Second, things that need specialized parts to fix but could be made to work with some kind of field expedient repair (McGyver stuff). Turnaround time could be fairly quick as well. Then there is stuff that nned parts that aren’t easily available and can’t jerry-rigged to work. It would depend how quickly the Ukrainians could get the parts or make them. Finally, there is the stuff that is broke dick. That is stuff that would take major rebuilds and might not be worth doing. Sometimes you can cannibalize the broke dick shit to get other things working. The big question for me is how much of the Russian equipment is in that final category and how much will be soon.
Villago Delenda Est
@Sebastian: It was a couple of days back on one of the Ukraine threads. Omnes, if he has the time, can give you some idea of what this all entails, he’s the artillery expert around here. I was a mere Signal officer in a Division Artillery (DIVARTY) headquarters. Although I know the basics…forward observer contacts fire direction center, fire direction center turns that into data the guns can use, guns set themselves up to deliver the rounds very, very close to exactly where the forward observer wants them to go.
Mind you, this sounds very easy, and the FA (Field Artillery) guys can make it look easy, but they’ve got many, many hours of training to get this to all work exactly as envisioned in the doctrine. The skills are perishable and must be constantly refreshed. The communication has to work perfectly (that’s where I came into the picture, in a very broad sense) for this to all happen.
Another Scott
@PJ: Relatedly, …
(from The Grand Budapest Hotel)
In addition to what Sebastian said above, my impression is that the hand-painted “Z” is put on all the Russian hardware so that their folks know not to attack it by mistake. Similar to the yellow tape used by many Ukrainian fighters.
Cheers,
Scott.
Sebastian
@Omnes Omnibus:
The reason I am asking is I think obvious: how quickly can a competent army with support of every truck mechanic shop within 100 miles (and manufacturers of mining or quarry equipment or agricultural vehicles) get these tanks and APCs into a reasonable combat ready condition.
All the Russian gear looks so neglected, it’s dirty inside, not from recent use but just grime from long storage. Doors or hatches slightly akimbo, paint chipped, etc
The Ukrainian gear looks just “cleaner”, better maintained, not sure if you know what I mean.
So I wonder, can the Ukrainians cart off all these vehicles 50 miles towards Poland, fix them, and then roll right South and East towards Odessa and Luhansk/ Donbas with two or three brand new Armored Divisions?
Or do you need parts that aren’t readily available and can’t be manufactured, not even if you had CAD/CAM machines?
Sebastian
@Another Scott:
That is indeed correct. Z means now “Recycling” lol
Because broken down and Z? Get a tractor and haul it away! (and presumably repair)
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl:
Most weapon system are direct fire systems. You see a target, you point the weapon at it, and shoot. Artillery is used for indirect fire. The people firing the guns (or rocket launchers) cannot see what they are shoot at. The target can often be miles away. This requires observers who can accurately locate and describe the target (forward observers), people who can take that info and determine the exact direction that the gun should be pointed, how high up the barrel of the gun should be raised, the amount of gunpowder needed to get it there. They also determine the type and number of shells to be fired to destroy the target (fire direction center). That info is then sent to the guns who fire the mission. If the first rounds are not perfectly on target. the observer gives corrections, the fire direction center recalculated, and the guns fire again. Needless to say, this has to be done very quickly and to as stunning degree of accuracy.
I could go on and on, but I hope this is enough for general purposes. Gun chiefs (the NCO in charge of a gun) love their guns more than their spouses and almost as much as their children. The nicest thing you can ever say to a gun chief is something good about their gun
Omnes Omnibus
@Sebastian: I know what you mean, but I just don’t know what state the captured stuff is in. Also, when it comes down to repairing diesel engines and shit, I just stood there in the could and the mud while the enlisted guys did all the work. I did stay out with them though, which was nice.
CROAKER
The Second Korean War: A Forgotten Conflict 1966 – 1969
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est:
Jesus F Christ, Sigo! Why the fuck can’t I get digital to Alpha 23? Yes, we checked the fucking wire three times.
Sebastian
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’d wager every armor maintenance crew from the former Warsaw Pact and now NATO countries is volunteering to help in Ukraine now. The entire region is united in finally sticking it to the Russians. The resentment runs very deep.
Sebastian
@Villago Delenda Est:
Why is the American artillery so much better than anyone else? Just better discipline and institutional memory like the British Navy?
Villago Delenda Est
@Sebastian:
This is harsh, but the vast majority of MSM minions get most of their ideas about military operations from fictional teevee and movies. Which means, at best, it’s superficial and leaves out the seriously boring, MEGO stuff like logistics that makes a successful military campaign possible, and where Russia is solidly in the fail box right now.
Timill
@Omnes Omnibus: You might be interested in Gavin Lyall’s “Honour” series of spy thrillers. Our Hero is a former artilleryman, and at one point has to defend a lady’s honour in a duel. Fought in a mountain range in Eastern Europe. Using mortars…
Villago Delenda Est
@Sebastian: Essentially, yes. As Omnes can tell you, this stuff is drummed into them from AIT (Advanced Individual Training) and OBC (Officer Basic Course) to when they’re actually in the field in working units. There has been a lot of IT advance over the years, but they still learn the manual basics of how to effectively deliver deadly indirect fire.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: Did you also check the frequency grease reservoirs?
Omnes Omnibus
@Sebastian: The system is good. The training is good. We learned to calculate firing data by hand before we got to use computers. We learned to call for fire with just binos and a map before we learned how to use targeting equipment. And then it is just drill, drill, drill and put as many practice round down range as the budget will allow.
Fundamentally, tube artillery is same basic thing that was done in WWI. Put a good crew on a French 75 and they could be putting effective rounds done range (if such ammo still exists) in a very short time.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: Lol.
Roger Moore
@Sebastian:
Even if they could haul the equipment away and fix it, they would need competent troops to turn it over to. The first choice would probably to use the captured equipment to replace their own equipment that has been disabled. Behind that would be either cannibalizing the equipment for parts their troops need or giving the repaired equipment to lower readiness units that are short. Training new divisions from scratch takes months or even years, even if you have all the equipment ready.
Omnes Omnibus
@Timill:
I have read a number of Lyall’s Maxim novels and a few others, but I missed those. I will look. Thanks.
stinger
@debbie: I saw the film first, and watched it multiple times (it was shown repeatedly by my local PBS station), partly because the time jumps made it a challenge to follow the plot and partly because of the gorgeous dresses!
Lyrebird
This is meant as humor, and if it comes off wrong, kindly brush it off:
Harsh? You?
Not trying to annoy. You often demonstrate such skill in getting to a point, usually without mincing any words…
For real, what does MEGO stand for?
Lyrebird
@Another Scott:
ETA: I see @Sebastian: already covered the territory more thoroughly!
Though if anyone wants to read even more acronyms and nicknames for old types of tanks, I still recommend that thread with the tanks on a train westbound towards Ukraine, sorry I can’t find it.
Kalakal
@Lyrebird: MEGO – My Eyes Glaze Over – stuff people can’t be bothered to understand because it seems complicated or boring
Another Scott
Lend-Lease II?
Cheers,
Scott.
Lyrebird
@Another Scott: Wild. One of the R generals even predicted this might happen, according to this DKos article about Cassandras:
Lyrebird
@Kalakal: Many thanks! That one’s quite useful beyond the military, too!
Kalakal
@Another Scott: That’s a clever idea
Roger Moore
@Omnes Omnibus:
The equipment is very similar, but the US Army really revolutionized things in the years leading up to WWII by inventing the modern fire direction center. In WWI- and through WWII in many armies- the artillery fire plan had to be made in advance. If there was good communication, the front-line troops could call for planned fire. In the worst case, e.g. for attacking units in WWI, there was no way to coordinate with the artillery at all, so the artillery would just fire according to plan without having any idea what was happening on the ground. The US changed that by making it possible for the artillery to respond to what was happening in the battle in real time. The US artillery wasn’t necessarily more powerful than other armies’, but it was more effective because it was better coordinated.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: I am aware, but I needed to stop typing at some point. And my point was that the gun crew is doing fundamentally the same thing. FWIW I was a fire direction officer for 18 months.
PJ
@Sebastian: thanks, I get it now: “Z” for zapad (west).
Another Scott
@Lyrebird: I recall seeing a tweet with the train, but can’t find it either.
Oryx… has a few tweets with equipment with an O or a V.
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: That just looks like a truck to me.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: That box on the back is a several dozen rocket launcher tubes. (Click the image to embiggen.) It’s a Grad MLRS that we were discussing above.
Cheers,
Scott.
Villago Delenda Est
@Lyrebird: Rest assured, I giggled a bit as I read your posting. And Kalakal answered the MEGO question. You can appreciate all the more Jen Psaki’s patience in dealing with the morons of the WH press corpse when you understand the MEGO meme, which has the entire Village in thrall.
Sebastian
@Roger Moore:
Yes of course, it’s not like getting into a Corolla.
Veteran or elite troops will of course grab a better model than the one they have and from there on it’s hand me downs and chop for parts.
One thing to ponder though is the 66,000 Ukrainians that returned home this week. Ukraine has been at war for 8 years and has rotated through I believe 6 rounds of conscription. What I am trying to gauge is how many of them know how to drive a tank because judging from the TikTok vids there are a lot of folks who just climb onto a T-72 or T-80 and know exactly how to turn the thing on and take off. Now, driving a tank is not battling with a tank but it’s not nothing either.
Assuming for a moment among those coming home are a few hundred or thousand folks who were trained and would immediately begin brushing up skills, how many tanks can Ukraine reasonably put back in service?
I guess I am trying to determine is if this is a moronic train of thought because it takes four weeks to repair a tank or APC with shoddy tires, or not.
Villago Delenda Est
@Sebastian: Well, normally, like in the US Army, it doesn’t take four weeks to repair many things in a normal peacetime environment when we’re just talking new tires or tracks. If it did take longer, motor officers would be asking tough questions of their direct support people. However, the Russians are in a position where in the peacetime environment it might actually take three to four weeks to get replacement tires on a routine basis. In a battle zone, things get even more desperate.
LongHairedWeirdo
@Gin & Tonic: In point of fact, *not* everyone understands what “In My Humble Opinion”/IMHO means. Many newbies have inferred the “H” to be for “honest”.
It’s another one of those words a lot of people self-define from context, and get wrong.
For example, “enclosed is a contract for your perusal” means “once you indicate you’ve done that, you know *everything* about that contract”. Some people think “peruse” means “to give it a final skimming over, just to check for obvious mistakes”. Both definitions are *reasonable* to infer, but if you’ve “perused” and then signed a contract, it’s as binding as can be – you (or, more likely, your attorney) knows *exactly* what is in it, and has discussed every comma.
IMHO is like that. “IMHO, Trump is nutters,” means I’m acknowledging I’m offering just a humble, one person’s, opinion.
It’s a lot stronger than that, if “IMHO” is read as “my *honest* opinion”.
It’s a shame not enough people use “IMNSHO” – “In My Not So Humble Opinion” = a strong opinion, with minimal humility. That keeps IMHO’s meaning clear, and it’s an important thing.