Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

Presidents are not kings, and Plaintiff is not President.

John Fetterman: Too Manly for Pennsylvania.  Paid for by the Oz for Senator campaign.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

I really should read my own blog.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

Today’s GOP: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

“Squeaker” McCarthy

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

A last alliance of elves and men. also pet photos.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

We still have time to mess this up!

The GOP couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

You are here: Home / Politics / Violent Insurrection at the Capitol / Midday news dump open thread

Midday news dump open thread

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A few things that caught my eye in the past few hours.

First, the Polish government has found a way to transfer its fleet of Mig-29s to Ukraine without directly doing so:

The jets will fly to Rammstein Air Force Base in Germany where they will become US property for the US government to do with them as they wish. I would imagine that the paint techs will be quite busy in the near future. At the same time, the Poles are asking for used US F-16s to backfill the unit that is currently flying MIG-29s.

Update:.

Now onto our domestic anti-democratic extremists news:

The first January 6 trial came to a rapid verdict this afternoon:

Guilty on all counts.

And earlier this morning, Proud Boy leader Tarrio was arrested on a super-seding indictment of conspiracy to obstruct the vote count:

Open thread.

Reader Interactions

98Comments

  1. 1.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    First, the Polish government has found a way to transfer its fleet of Mig-29s to Ukraine without directly doing so:

    Listening to MSNBC and it sounds like Warsaw announced this without giving the US a chance to prepare a response….

  2. 2.

    Old School

    Intriguing passage of his communications with an “individual whose identity is known to the grand jury.”

    Here’s hoping the rest of us get to know the identity as well.

  3. 3.

    artem1s

    I would imagine that the paint techs will be quite busy in the near future.

    I hope they decide to get creative a la WWII bombers and fighter crews did.
    Nose Art

  4. 4.

    Betty Cracker

    One article I read on Refitt’s conviction says he faces “decades” in jail. Hope they throw the book at him. Even if he refrains from future attempts to overthrow the government, the man’s a grisly domestic violence incident just waiting to happen.

  5. 5.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: OTOH, it’s possible that this was all engineered by US/NATO to give Poland a big PR win.  One thing that our side (both UA and US/NATO) have been excellent at in this war is public messaging — the way that Biden lets Europeans take the lead over and over, always being second-in-line, following Europeans’ lead, when we know from prior reporting that the Europeans were undecided and it was US firmness that pushed them forward.  I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that this happened here.

    OTOH, if Poland really did surprise the US by jumping forward, that would be its own special brand of “Ooooh, shiny!” — and signal that Poland has ratcheted forward a couple of notches in its commitment to UA.

  6. 6.

    Keith P.

    So what do we (the US) do with the MIGs? Is there some reason why we can’t give Ukraine F-16s but can give them MIGs?

  10. 10.

    Calouste

    @Keith P.: Ukraine has Migs but not F-16s, so that would require a lot of training before they can fly F16s effectively during a war. Poland has both.

  11. 11.

    David Anderson

    @Keith P.: Training and logistics.  Ukraine has pilots that are up to date on Mig-29s and they have the support system in place to fly them repeatedly and keep them operational as the UrAF already flies a bunch of Migs.

    F-16s (or any other Western designed fighter)  would be brand new to the force and they have a learning curve for both the pilots and the maintenance techs before the jets would be combat effective.  Getting that learning experience while being shot at is contra-indicated and a good way to get people whose training takes years killed very quickly for no gain.

  12. 12.

    lowtechcyclist

    @artem1s:

    I hope they decide to get creative a la WWII bombers and fighter crews did.
    Nose Art

    The father of a former student of mine wrote this book about (mostly WWII) nose art.

    Easily the most risqué book to be sold in the King University bookstore.  (It’s a conservative Christian college.)

  14. 14.

    trollhattan

    @Keith P.:

    Barring export complications (congressional approval) the Ukraine AF is not trained on US planes and that process would take longer than this war will last (famous last words). MIGs will be immediately useful to them so long as the particular package delivered to Poland are close enough to what Ukraine has been using (avionics, instrumentation, weapons systems, etc.).

    Poland getting F-16s helps them get out from under having to use former Soviet airplanes which, as a long-term strategy seems like a smart move.

  15. 15.

    FlyingToaster

    @Keith P.: Ukrainian pilots are trained on MIGs (those being what they had from ye olde Warsaw Pact that was).

    Poland has been training pilots on F16 via NATO for several years.

    Basically, they’ve just announced a trade-in deal.  I’m sure there are some former East German MIG mechanics and ground crews who’d love a short-term contract in Wiesbaden to get these things stripped of all things Polish; added to the US fleet; then put up for “sale” (or lend/lease) to, say, plucky Jewish kids from Kryvi Rih…

  16. 16.

    lowtechcyclist

    Poland ready to place all its MIG-29 jets at the disposal of the U.S.

    Awesome sauce.

  17. 17.

    trollhattan

    @Betty Cracker:

    Speaking of pending sentences, I read that Elizabeth Holmes could get twenty years! Proof that rich people do not tolerate being fleeced.

  18. 18.

    Mai Naem mobile

    Lock him up! Lock him up!

    Amazing on how much Hillary Clinton was right on. What a loss for this country that she didn’t become president.

  19. 19.

    Chetan Murthy

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Awesome sauce.

    Today we started to get reporting on UA army losses.  The reporting turned from solely reporting on RU losses, and ….. while certainly not calamitous, it seemed like things were turning grimmer.  I think, preparing people for encirclement, urban warfare, dramatically grimmer news.

    It was nice to get this bit of positive news.  I sure hope for more of the same.

  20. 20.

    raven

    The leader of the Russian Orthodox Church said gay pride parades were part of the reason for the war in Ukraine.
    Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, a long-time ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, said on Sunday that the conflict in Donbas is about “a fundamental rejection of the so-called values that are offered today by those who claim world power.”
    The “test” of which side you are on, said Kirill, is whether your country is willing to hold gay pride parades.
    “In order to enter the club of those countries, it is necessary to hold a gay pride parade. Not to make a political statement, ‘we are with you,’ not to sign any agreements, but to hold a gay parade. And we know how people resist these demands and how this resistance is suppressed by force,” Kirill said during a sermon in Moscow.
    Kirill categorized the war as a struggle of “metaphysical significance,” for humanity to follow God’s laws.

  21. 21.

    Roger Moore

    @Keith P.:

    Is there some reason why we can’t give Ukraine F-16s but can give them MIGs?

    Their pilots already know how to fly MiG-29s, and their mechanics know how to fix them.  They don’t have time to learn the intricacies of a new model; they need something they can fight with from the day they receive it.

  22. 22.

    Mike S (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!)

    @Mai Naem mobile: She is an amazing person! I recently found myself thinking about famous people I’d like to meet and chat with and Hillary C. is at the top of the list by a mile.

  23. 23.

    Chetan Murthy

    Today, spurred by WG’s noting that Alex Vindman’s charity target, MOAS.EU was doing good work (medical work!) inside UA, I sent them some money.  It’s the least I can do, that’s for sure.

  25. 25.

    patroclus

    Zelenskyy channels Churchill and Shakespeare.  No more Starbucks or McDonalds in Russia.

  26. 26.

    Gravenstone

    @Keith P.: Their pilots likely aren’t trained on F-16s. So they would be of at best very limited utility. the MIGs are aircraft types they’re already familiar with so can use immediately.

  31. 31.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    The MiG thing sounds like one of those situations where the principle is sound, but the logistics are going to cause migraines. Does the US have enough spare F-16s to make up for what Poland’s giving up in MiGs? How will the Ukranians get the MiGs to their home territory? What about arming them – don’t Warsaw Pact warplanes need different armaments than NATO warplanes?

  33. 33.

    Mai Naem mobile

     

    @Mike S (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!): Historians are going to be writing a lot of books about Hillary. She may even have more attention paid to her by historians than her husband. She just covers so many parts of American history – womens rights, first ‘working professional’ first lady, Monica, first real female POTUS candidate, first foreign interference in an American election, TFG vs Clinton, Putin vs Clinton…you could go on and on.

  34. 34.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

     

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage:

    Honestly, I think the USAF  could haul A-37 frames out of mothballs, slap some dumb avionics inside and Ukrainian pilots would have a field day with them.

    Rumor has it that a trained pilot can be pretty good with one in about six hours.

  35. 35.

    PaulB

    Not sure if this was mentioned, but the website itch.io is running a special Bundle for Ukraine.  For a minimum donation of $10 with proceeds split between two charities, you get almost 1000 games.  About 600 video games, plus visual novels and tabletop rpgs.

    The bundle includes some real interesting games, like Celeste, A Short Hike, Superhot, Baba Is You, A Good Snowman Is Hard To Build, and more.

  37. 37.

    Ruckus

    @Bruce K in ATH-GR:

    Poland also uses F16 fighters now and have inventory. I’ve seen it written that they were trying to get rid of their Migs already, having replaced them with likely enough F16. While they may have liked to sell the Migs, giving them to Ukraine is likely to be well received in Poland. They likely just had to find a way to do this “reasonably.”

  39. 39.

    Baud

    The jets will fly to Rammstein Air Force Base in Germany where they will become US property for the US government to do with them as they wish.

    One thing we won’t do with them: Paint Chinese flags on them and bomb Russia.

  44. 44.

    JoyceH

    Couple things –

    No Fly Zones. The people who are clamoring for this didn’t grow up worrying about the actual genuine possibility of the extinction of the human species, and it shows. But someone said something recently that I think would be a more cogent argument for the people who just don’t believe global thermonuclear war is even possible. That is that if the US or ‘the West’ decided to declare a No Fly Zone over Ukraine or parts of Ukraine today, that NFZ would go into effect in maybe, MAYBE, 6 to 8 weeks. You can’t just declare it, you have to DO it, and that takes time. You need bases for the aircraft that are enforcing the zone, you need anti-aircraft ground weaponry and airplanes, and first you need legal agreements with the nations you’re basing your units out of. When Ukraine wants an NFZ, they want it NOW, and with the best will in the world, and even in a world without the existence of nukes, they can’t possibly get it now.

    And just the other day it dawned on me that we have a very limited and slanted viewpoint of what is actually going on. There are actually two professional national militaries in Ukraine right now, doing battle with one another, and we see nothing of that and hear very little. The Ukrainians we see are either pitiful refugees or scrappy irregulars, farmers stealing tanks with a twinkle in their eye, grandmas working at the makeshift molotov cocktail factory. Saw a mention that the Ukrainians had retaken an airport at some city, and it dawned on me, oh yeah, right, that would have been the UA Army that did that. Saw a mention of the sinking of a Russian ship by the UA Navy,and oh, yeah, they have ports, they must have a navy. Not sure where I’m going with this, just the caution that despite the round the clock obsessive coverage of the ‘war’, we actually have very little insight into what is really going on. (Maybe later when the books about it are written, there will be maps, like those maps of Civil War battles.)

  45. 45.

    Betty Cracker

    @Mai Naem mobile:

    She [HRC] may even have more attention paid to her by historians than her husband.

    She really should — she’s the more historically consequential of the two by a mile, IMO.

  46. 46.

    HumboldtBlue

    @Betty Cracker:

    It’s pretty telling that seemingly every Maga dipshit who attended that riot had a background of domestic abuse of some form or fashion.

  48. 48.

    Ruckus

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    It’s more than just flying them. I’ve flown a plane. Once. For a rather short time – and as second seat. Can it be done? Sure, I’m still here 30 yrs later. But flying a fighter and being able to do so in combat, with it’s specific traits and issues takes more than just knowing the basic controls, one has to know it’s flying strengths and weaknesses, all the controls, screens, dials, etc and that takes training.

  50. 50.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Spanky: I’ve never served in the military.  So I’d appreciate pilots chiming in.

    I’ve read that A-10s can’t really safely fly in zones where our side doesn’t have air superiority — they’re too easy to shoot down by fighters and A-A SAMs.  That would seem to imply that even if we could xfer A-10s, they might not stay up long.  Dunno.

  51. 51.

    HumboldtBlue

    @Miss Bianca:

    Same with me, I typed out three versions of a response and deleted them all. Just reading what these bigots say breaks my brain.

  52. 52.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Baud: I hate to be a pedant [ed. I don’t think he does] but the phrase they used isn’t really “go fuck yourself” but more like “go sit on a dick.” Which, I suppose, is kind of similar.

  53. 53.

    Baud

    Speaking of

    Hillary Clinton doesn’t know how the crisis in Ukraine will end. But the person she believes is most shocked that there hasn’t been a swift military victory is Russian President Vladimir Putin himself.
    “It’s so heartbreaking to me that Putin is acting out his own insecurities, his own resentments and grievances against the people of Ukraine — waging a war against a smaller state that is totally unprovoked,” said the former secretary of state. “It really tells us everything we need to know about Putin.”

    Clinton made the remarks during an interview with Know Your Value founder and “Morning Joe” co-host Mika Brzezinski at Forbes’ 30/50 summit on Tuesday morning in Abu Dhabi. Shortly before the conversation, Clinton received Forbes’ International Women’s Day Lifetime Achievement Award.
    “I don’t know how it ends, but I think the person who is most surprised that it is still going on is probably Vladimir Putin,” added Clinton. “The level of defense and determination that the Ukrainian people are showing – starting with their president, President Zelenskyy, going all the way down to the grandmothers and young women taking up arms… It’s tragic, but inspiring. I hope the world will stay with Ukraine while they try to protect their homeland.”

  56. 56.

    trollhattan

    Hey Michigan, this guy.

    March 8, 2022 at 3:42 pm EST By Taegan Goddard

    Robert Regan (R), who is favored to win a seat in the Michigan House, said he tells his daughters to “just lie back and enjoy it” if they are raped, the Washington Post reports.

    Said Regan: “I tell my daughters, ‘Well, if rape is inevitable, you should just lie back and enjoy it.’”

    One of Regan’s daughters urged voters not to elect him to office two years ago.

    Happy Women’s History Month

  57. 57.

    Hoodie

    @Ruckus: The US has a lot of F-16s in both AF and Air National Guard units, so there shouldn’t be finding planes to give to Poland.   Wikipedia says the Polish MIGs had their avionics updated to be compatible with their F-16 fleet, which  might be a learning curve for the Ukrainian pilots, but at least they know how to fly the airplane.

  58. 58.

    lee

    I’m curious about the different capabilities of the Mig-29 versus the F-16. Anyone have any insight?

    @JoyceH: UA has a very very small Navy. What they do have are  Neptune missiles.

     

    @Chetan Murthy: Not a pilot but a grunt. For A-10s to be effective they must fly in a non-contested air space. If we could magic UA a squadron immediately, they would not fair well.

  60. 60.

    Chetan Murthy

    A thread on those Polish MiGs.  Wacky AF.

    The backstory of how this all went down in Warsaw is both hilarious and terrifying, FYI.
    — Michael Weiss ????? (@michaeldweiss) March 8, 2022

  63. 63.

    Kay

    @trollhattan:

    “But I always just drop a line in the water and send them a card,” Regan said about his four children. He emphasized that he doesn’t “hold any animosity” toward his daughter following her tweets.

    So none of them talk to him.

  64. 64.

    catclub

    @trollhattan: Proof that rich people do not tolerate being fleeced.

     

    I think it can be done, and they will like it, if you tell them this saves them on taxes. people are not sane in this regard.

  67. 67.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Ruckus:

    I’ve flown a plane. Once.

    I jumped out of a plane. Once. (Hadn’t realised it before, but that skydiving event was exactly 3-1/2 years ago tomorrow!)

  70. 70.

    Chetan Murthy

    @catclub: AFAIK, there’s only one Victoria Nuland, and she’s Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs.  But I’m a lowly citizen, don’t keep track of all appointees.

  71. 71.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @trollhattan:

    Said Regan: “I tell my daughters, ‘Well, if rape is inevitable, you should just lie back and enjoy it.’”

    Jesus F. Christ. That line was old and offensive 60+ years ago when I was in college (it used to be a “Confucius says” attribution.”

  72. 72.

    Gin & Tonic

    @catclub: There is only one, she’s Victoria. Not sure what she goes by among friends – my son had dinner with her (in a group) and I’m pretty sure addressed her as “Ambassador.”

  75. 75.

    Frank Wilhoit

    @Mai Naem mobile: “…first foreign interference in an American election, …”

    Certainly the worst, but probably not first.  Reagan, Nixon, Henry Wallace, and really deep students of this corner of history could probably name a couple more.

  78. 78.

    Anonymous At Work

    @Professor Bigfoot: Who isn’t?  There are only three groups of people here:

    1. Never heard of Roger Stone
    2. Those thinking it’s Roger Stone
    3. Those praying it’s Roger Stone
  79. 79.

    matryoshka

    @Chetan Murthy: If you have ever seen an A-10 in action, they go so fast you don’t hear them until they are well out of shooting range. I think they are primarily anti-tank machines but will defer to the military experts here. They seem pretty nimble from the ground!

  83. 83.

    mrmoshpotato

    The first January 6 trial came to a rapid verdict this afternoon:…

    Guilty on ALL charges. Took less than four hours of deliberation. Huge statement by DC jury.

    Lock shit up!  Lock shit up!

  86. 86.

    Anonymous At Work

    @Professor Bigfoot: Not on here, but figure about 80% of the population only slightly follows the news.  Maybe saw 1-2 stories on him being pardoned among other pardons.

  87. 87.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: Alive and captured.  But I worry because I don’t trust the Russians, plus the Russians have to be furious about Russian Warship, Go Fuck Yourselves! being a rallying cry for the war.

    So I worry about them in particular as prisoners of war.

  89. 89.

    DCrefugee

    Couple of thoughts on the MiG-29s…

    Right now, it appears that neither side has an upper hand in Ukrainian airspace. It’s not at all clear which side has the best anti-aircraft or air-to-air capability, despite the Ghost of Kyiv meme.

    Even if The US agreed to this deal today, it’s going to take time for the additional MiGs to become effective. (Just getting them to Ukraine from a US military base may require disassembly and trucking them in, since launching any combat aircraft into Ukraine from a US base has legal implications.) It could be several days before Ukraine could launch combat missions with them.

    What will be the status of Ukraine’s bases by then?

  90. 90.

    Gin & Tonic

    I’ve read that Russia will not allow the sale of foreign currency for the next 6 months. So rubles are not convertible. Vladimir Vladimirovich wanted to restore the USSR, and here it is.

  92. 92.

    burnspbesq

    @trollhattan:

    Holmes could get 20 on each count, although cynics will say it’s unlikely that DOJ will ask to send a cute white girl with a kid up for 80 years, no matter how heinous her crimes.

  93. 93.

    Calouste

    @Gin & Tonic: The idea behind an offensive war is that you loot the conquered territories to enrich the homeland and keep morale there high. VVP can’t even get that right. He’s going to need a lot of propaganda to explain the sudden decline in the standard of living.

  94. 94.

    Ruckus

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    I’ve thought about sky diving.

    A buddy in the navy would go sky diving on his days off. He loved it.

    I just never really got the bug. I do have over half a million miles on motorcycles, including racing them and riding on 3 different continents so I doubt it’s the excitement part.

  95. 95.

    patrick II

    @Chetan Murthy:

    The A-10 “Warthog” is subsonic.  It was designed for close air support of combat troops.  As such, it has heavy armor surrounding the cockpit, and a humongous seven barrel 30mm gatling gun and 16,000 pounds of mixed ordinance.  It is (compared to fighter jets) slow and heavy.  Our combat troops love to see them, but they have no chance against MIGS.

  98. 98.

    Ruckus

    @barbequebob:

    A lot of men hold this type of idea. A lot. And a lot have for hundreds upon hundreds of years. And a lot will for likely hundreds of years into the future. No man (maybe a prisoner…) normally thinks like this, but women have to on an almost constant basis.

    And they never should have to.

    This is the kind of thing that conservatives do not understand, that humans have rights. Not just male humans but all humans, to the same degree. IOW those rights belong to all of us. Equally. Unequivocally. Someone like SFB thinks that his “¿superior?” monetary prowess and his whiteness lets him be above the law, and in the same way many conservatives think that they have rights, over others, that they just do not hold.

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