So reader Grum Grumby was kind enough to send this to me. It sure seems like a big deal. Is it as big a deal as it seems?
I seem to recall some BJ peeps think Seth Abramson is credible and reliable and a few folks seem to think he can be breathless and can occasionally get out over his skis.
Seth Abramson: New Revelations Indicate Ginni Thomas Was a Key Author of Trump’s January 6 Coup Plot
THREAD/ BREAKING NEWS: With a federal judge now finding that Trump likely committed federal felonies related to January 6, America is now on a collision course with a constitutional crisis. This isn’t hype—it’s legal fact. As an attorney, I explain in this thread. Please RETWEET. pic.twitter.com/4bSl0TcZtL
— Seth Abramson (@SethAbramson) March 28, 2022
Steeplejack was kind enough to run this through the thread reader app for me:
Seth Abramson thinks we are now on a collisions course with a constitutional crisis. I think we have been on that collision path for quite some time.
What do you guys think? Does this new information, or this new ruling, change the situation significantly?
Open thread.
Interesting Article on Why DOJ Indictments Seem to be Moving So Slowly
CaseyL
I think Abramson has “gotten out over his skis” often enough that I don’t pay attention to him anymore. His heart is in the right place, but his grasp of factual data is, shall we say, loosey-goosey.
Joey Maloney
We’ve been in a Constitutional crisis since December of 2000. It’s been a slow-motion coup, lately picking up speed.
WaterGirl
@Joey Maloney: I can’t really disagree with that, but I would add that the fight against the coup has been picking up speed, and I think we’re going to see a lot more from the Jan 6 committee.
Surly Duff
Yeah, no. The last 47 tweets in Abramson’s thread are pointless because of #3:
Eastman’s attorneys say he intends to comply. In other words, there won’t be an appeal.
germy
I had to quit Abramson a long time ago. I often agree with his opinions, but whatever he predicts rarely happens. He’s like a wordier Palmer Report.
Dopey-o
Seth hasn’t connected the last dot: Ginni AND Clarence Thomas were authors of the plot. I’m sure Clarence was too smart to leave any fingerprints, but an examination of Ginni’s further texts and emails are going to strongly suggest input from Clarence Thomas.
If you were engaged in saving America from destruction, wouldn’t you want advice from your ‘best friend’?
germy
@Surly Duff:
There’s a seven hour gap in phone records. I don’t know if it can be considered cooperating when they hand over incomplete material.
lashonharangue
Here is a very different view of Ginni Thomas. Not sure if the link will work. Basic point – she is not a mastermind, but rather someone with crazy views who is indulged because of who she is married to.
WaterGirl
@lashonharangue: Counterpoint: It’s possible for her to dim and stupid and still dangerous because of the position her husband holds.
WaterGirl
@germy: Every single person who had anything to do with keeping or having access to those records needs to be hauled before the Jan 6 committee for questioning.
Scout211
I read the whole thread reader version and I am underwhelmed and a bit confused. I don’t know Abramson’s work, but this reads to me like: They are all corrupt but none of them will face any consequences. The End. ☹️
Butch
I don’t know what to think of Seth but I do know after reading the thread that I’m done with the Internet for the day. I can take only so much bad stuff.
Barbara
@germy: Right, the yield from trying to decode Abramson’s “truths” is rarely worth the investment in time and imagination.
JoyceH
Something I keep reminding myself – when you’re in the middle of a whirlwind, it looks exactly the same whether everything is spinning out of control, or everything is spinning back into control.
schrodingers_cat
Seth Abramson blocked me on Twitter a long time ago because I questioned one of his dubious conclusions. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt.
Sure Lurkalot
Seth Abramson AND The Bulwark? And this weekend, Michael Steele hosting MSNBC.
My issues with this timeline are not improving.
raven
@lashonharangue: That article could be about Brian Kemp!
germy
@schrodingers_cat:
I tend to be suspicious of “PLEASE RETWEET” journalists.
I feel bad for him because a few years ago some deplorables learned he had a seizure disorder. The deplorables replied to his tweets with animated gifs designed to trigger a seizure.
Just more proof of how horrible these people are.
germy
@lashonharangue:
Clarence has the same crazy views, he’s just quieter.
Barbara
@germy: I think it’s Kurt Eichenwald who has the seizure disorder, not Seth Abramson.
Martin
@WaterGirl: Yeah. I think she’s an idiot, but a very privileged one. Regardless, we have testimony that she was involved in keeping the conspiracy together. Was Clarence involved? I’m not sure it matters. This isn’t a shoplifting charge, it’s a coup plot. If a member of USSC has their spouse join Al Qaeda, there’s no fucking way they could stay on the court. And that’s where we are.
I get the whole ‘a person is not their spouse’ argument. I enforced that at work for decades. But when it comes to the potential destruction of the institution from which all of those rules emanate, you can’t afford to take those risks. The institution needs to be preserved. The constitution is not a suicide pact.
Scout211
@germy:
Wasn’t that Kurt Eichenwald?
Or was it Abramson, too?
Martin
@Barbara: Kurt definitely does – well documented. I’ve never heard if Seth does as well, so I think germy mixed them up.
rumpole
@schrodingers_cat:
Followed by 5lbs of salt and a garlic aoli. It’s not worth paying attention to him.
Kay
“Constitutional crisis” doesn’t mean anything to me. I don’t know what you do with that. Does he want someone to resign? Which branch?
WaterGirl
@germy: I thought that was someone else. ??
Of course, I cannot rememberer the name of the other person.
edit: see Barbara at #20. That’s whose name I could not remember.
And yes, that was despicable and disgusting I believe he suffered some long-term consequences from that That makes me so angry.
Alison Rose ???
@germy: Yeah, that phrase often makes my eye twitch.
WaterGirl
@Martin:
I totally agree with every word you wrote.
Scout211
@WaterGirl:
See @Barbara:
@Scout211:
Kurt Eichenwald.
LongHairedWeirdo
Not to be snide, but: the Republicans think nothing of committing crime in broad daylight, and blatantly covering it up, making whatever sophistry will appeal to “the base” (and, you know, truth matters *far* less than playing to “the base”), and trying to stack the federal judiciary with cronies who will strike down any inconvenient restrictions.
We’ve been in a constitutional crises for a long time now… Republicans don’t think the law or the truth applies to them, just so long as crimes are hushed up and out of the headlines (and even those that make the headlines are ignored, if they can be shouted down). We talk openly about how the Republican congress will shut down the Jan 6 investigations, as if it was anything other than a reason to loathe the entire party.
Kay
It will just piss me off forever that the liberals on the court recuse when they have a conflict and the conservatives don’t.
Sorry, but that’s ridiculous. Either throw out the norm or apply it to both sides. This is the worst of both. We’re giving them an actual advantage for unethical behavior- a reward. No one accepts fucking “one side only” rules like this, and they shouldn’t. And for lawyers! The entire system runs on reciprocity.
Steeplejack
@Sure Lurkalot:
Wait until you hear who CBS just hired to do analysis!
(Spoiler: Answer here.)
WaterGirl
@Kay: I agree. If we don’t recuse when we otherwise would/should, then when the other side screams about it, we call attention to their judges.
Make a rule or let it go. I am tired of fighting with one hand behind our back.
WaterGirl
@Steeplejack: Oh my god.
Kay
“Will you recuse in the affirmative action case?”
Excuse me? I can’t even believe she got that question from these people. Was it even 24 hours later that Thomas’ huge glaring conflict was revealed?
No one should be asked to accept this. It’s too much.
Cacti
@Kay: I tend to share the view that it’s become both unreasonable and unworkable for Dems to try and win the good sportsmanship award while the Republicans become increasingly open and brazen about their own corruption.
There needs to be legal and criminal accountability for the bad actors, starting immediately.
If Merrick Garland can take time away from organizing his sock drawer, or whatever it is he’s doing these days.
Central Planning
In this whole attorney-client thing, isn’t the client the President of the United States? What law prevents Abramson from releasing the records if Biden says release them?
If I was an attorney (I’m not) for a company, wouldn’t work I do for them be protected regardless of who the CEO is? If a new CEO were in place, they could make a decision to release attorney-client information that a previous CEO wanted hidden.
Miss Bianca
@Surly Duff: Whole lotta weaselin’ going on in that there statement
ETA: That said, I tend to agree that Seth A is doom-mongering here based on evidence that may not be quite as air-tight as he seems to think it is. And that apparently, he has a history of doing so. I guess I personally am going to take any of his breathless reportage with a healthy grain or 100 of salt.
OGLiberal
@germy: It wasn’t really a gap. They were just busy packing up the place and making it nice and clean for Joe and Jilly that they simply had no time to make or take calls. Trump was actually doing the windows during that so called “gap”.
Redshift
Just off the first tweet:
No, it’s not “legal fact” (unless “likely” is part of that “legal fact,” which sounds less than fact-like.)
The judge found that, by the standards of a civil case, there is sufficient evidence to believe a crime may have been committed. Therefore, the communications Eastman wants to be excluded under attorney-client privilege can’t be, because of the crime/fraud exception — if the work you’re doing as an attorney is part of a crime, it’s not privileged.
It’s not a “legal fact” that TFG committed felonies until he’s charged and convicted. Evidence that a court has evaluated and judged to indicate the whole thing was a crime is useful, but it doesn’t make that or anything else open-and-shut. It indicates it should be investigated as a crime, not that one has been proven.
(IANAL, I just listen to Preet Bharara, so I could have some of the details wrong.)
Kent
@Joey Maloney: Exactly. The entire Trump presidency was one constitutional crisis after another. That he got impeached twice for in fact.
The notion that the crisis only starts once he starts being held accountable is a ridiculous canard. Accountability isn’t the crisis. It is the resolution of the crisis.
john (not mccain)
Neither Ginni nor Clarence will face the slightest consequence other than maybe some antifa being less than sycophantic while serving dinner.
The only conservative who might face a repercussion at the moment is Cawthorn. Has he been questioned as to why he’s protecting the identities of the coke fiends who want to share a screw with him? MAYBE that’d get him in trouble.
But actually trying to destroy the country is just politics as usual.
UncleEbeneezer
@Miss Bianca: Yeah I swore off Seth a long time ago. He sometimes writes some interesting and educational (at least to me) stuff but he really tries to constantly get everyone roused (either in panic or celebration of something about to happen).
MisterDancer
@CaseyL: Agreed. I followed him for a few months at some point when Trump was elected, due to seeing tons of retweets. I don’t recall exactly when I just unfollowed/muted, yet I recall the feeling that his opinions felt more like punditry — with the requisite lack of follow-up and corrections — than anything I wanted to align my own opinions to.
That’s not to say he’s wrong here. Just that he was “off” enough, in the past, for me to not feel confident in reading him going forward.
Kent
Eight of the nine current justices went to either Harvard or Yale. Are they all going to recuse?
Redshift
@Central Planning:
(I think you mean Eastman, not Abramson.) I don’t recall for sure, but I suspect Eastman is claiming to have done work for TFG personally, not in his official capacity. Just like if you’re a CEO, your company can’t just release work your personal lawyer does for you on non-company matters.
Geoduck
@OGLiberal: The Shiatgibbon and Co. would never ever claim they were being nice to Democrats. “There’s a gap? Screw you, that’s why.”
VOR
It reads like a lot of possibles, not facts. Yes, it is possible there will be communications from Eastman to Ginni Thomas in the cache of messages requested by the J6 committee. Eastman and lawyers could appeal all the way to SCOTUS. Judge Thomas could be placed in the position of voting on whether to release Eastman’s communications, which might contain incriminating evidence against his own wife. Yes, most people would agree that’s a conflict of interest which compels recusal. Yes, there is nothing forcing Judge Thomas to recuse. Yes, Congress could impeach based on this refusal to recuse.
But here is where it breaks down. I do not see any possibility of Republicans voting to impeach one of their SCOTUS judges while a Democrat President could replace them. No freaking way, no matter what he did.
Yes, this indicates the possibility of the system breaking down. But this has been coming for a long time. We have one political party who cares about nothing but power while we have a government which relies on people of honor respecting norms. It’s a slow-motion apocalypse.
Kay
@Kent:
I think it’s legit- she’s on some kind of special committee- it’s just infuriating that it only works one way.
Didn’t Kagan recuse from the ACA cases?
TonyG
@germy: Hmm. I’m not a telecommunications guy, although I did have a “career” in IT for 40 years. I’m close to 100% sure that any professional phone system records into a database metadata about phone calls — i.e., who called who and the start and end times of the calls. If that is the case (and I think it is) then Trump communicated with his henchmen during those hours using a burner phone. Perhaps he was inspired by that famous telecom documentary “Breaking Bad” from a few years ago.
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
That wasn’t Seth Abramson, it was Kurt Eichenwald. He used to write for Newsweek; don’t know what he’s doing now.
ETA: I see several others got there first.
schrodingers_cat
@rumpole: Seth is an overly excitable dolt I was being polite.
Barbara
@Kay: No, she didn’t. The whole court heard the ACA cases.
Ruckus
@Martin:
I get the whole ‘a person is not their spouse’ argument. I enforced that at work for decades. But when it comes to the potential destruction of the institution from which all of those rules emanate, you can’t afford to take those risks. The institution needs to be preserved. The constitution is not a suicide pact.
Agreed.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Seth runs his mouth a lot. I’ve never rolled with his judgment.
Gravenstone
It’s been known for ages that he used his own, unsecured (and increasingly aged) personal cell for all manner of calls.
Leto
@Steeplejack: my former shitstain rep. I don’t watch national CBS news (my local station is pretty good), and this just cements that’s right correct decision. I mean, there was a lot of cement previously, this is just some more cement added to the existing foundation.
Also this is a top pic on Imgur right now, and I’m seeing it gain more traction among the commenters: Both Sides Are Not The Same.
kindness
Ginni is a lawyer and she certainly is Q friendly enough to believe Eastman’s memo on how to carry out a coup. But is she smart enough to have written it? I don’t know but doubt she wrote it. Ginni only tried to get it carried out imho.
Kay
@Barbara:
Thanks.
zhena gogolia
@Steeplejack: Oh for fuck’s sake
Anonymous At Work
A few thoughts:
Leto
@Gravenstone: that was something Adam highlighted oh so many years ago. There was a good bit of reporting on it, then as with every other Trumpov scandal we moved to the next one.
Barbara
@Martin: Nothing annoys me more than pleas about how unfair it is to penalize spouses professionally when their respective jobs cannot be reconciled in a way that preserves the function of an official institution. I am all for reaching accommodations of professional positions whenever it is possible to do so, but where it’s not, one of the spouses has to stand down. The official can resign or the non-official spouse can decline to get involved in certain types of activities. That isn’t “unfair” because fundamentally, the position doesn’t exist for the person, the person exists for the position — and in this case the appearance of bias and conflict of interest on the part of a justice that is closely associated with naked political ambition on the part of his wife, is delegitimizing the Court. And the fact that no one will or can do anything about it makes the Court appear even less legitimate.
jimmiraybob
Last year I was told that MSNBC was every bit as biased, and thus bad, as Fox News. I replied that there are now more olde tyme conservatives (never Trumpers) flooding MSNBC than there are “liberals” holding down the fort. She seemed unaware.
One thing about that and the writing at the Bullwark, I seldom have to quote the demon-infused, far-left, liberal, intellectual-elite, communist-socialist, deep state for commentary about saving American liberal Democracy.
Comes in handy for those having to interact with the “I just couldn’t vote for a Democrat” crowd. I also urge the crowd to write in “Abe Lincoln” or “Teddy Roosevelt” if they absolutely positively have to vote for a Republican.
Sure Lurkalot
@Steeplejack: Yeah, way to go CBS, hiring the shameless liar Mulvaney.
West of the Rockies
Lots of Seth doubters here (evidently with solid reason), but I will say that maybe his material is part of a rapidly-developing mosaic of corruption being revealed now.
Central Planning
@Redshift: Yes, Eastman. Thanks for the correction.
Does it matter who paid? If it was taxpayer dollars, would that change the calculation?
Barbara
@West of the Rockies: I have the same reaction to every significant Seth Abramson thread I have read as I do to many legal briefs arguing that such and such case proves XYZ, which is, “well, no, it doesn’t prove any such thing.” If he has A, D, and G, he thinks it should be obvious that B,C,E, and F are just a given when he’s just filling in the gaps in his own mind.
Martin
@Barbara: Exactly. This is the job, if you can’t do it within these very reasonable boundaries, then resign. FFS, we have a law that says that the President and Vice President cannot come from the same state. I don’t think ‘you can’t be a Supreme Court justice if your wife is trying to overthrow the government’ is a reach in any way.
marcopolo
Stopped paying attention to this guy several years ago cause (to me) his tweets were a lot of sizzle but very little meat.
Seems to me the big news today is the revelation from the National Archives that the is an 8 (yes I said 8) hour gap in Trump’s call logs on Jan 6. From 11:15am ish to about 7 pm ish there is no record of Trump taking or making calls when we know from other folks (McCarthy, Pence, Jordan, Mike Lee, and others) that he was def talking on the phone w/ numerous people. God, I hope something comes of this though I’ve been so disappointed so many times by thing that Trump might be held accountable for that I won’t hold my breath.
Martin
@Kent: They should. Would be a good illustration why we shouldn’t pull all of our justices from 2 schools.
WaterGirl
@Sure Lurkalot: Since corporations are now people, CBS should be embarrassed.
NotMax
OT.
raven (et al.), did you feel a disturbance in the Force?
Report: NFL+ Subscription Streaming Service Possibly in the Works
Buckeye
I’ll delurk to continue the Seth pile-on: he’s a grifter without any relevant subject area-expertise.
I’ll pay attention to those who actually have relevant education, experience and expertise. And who don’t fear monger or have tweet threads 350 tweets long and please ‘please retweet!’
Baud
@Steeplejack:
Vladimir Putin.
zhena gogolia
@marcopolo:
JL Cauvin has the transcript:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko62D5h_ffo
zhena gogolia
@Baud: Almost.
Betty Cracker
@Martin:
A-fucking-men to that.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Enemies, foreign and domestic.
Kay
@kindness:
I love the biographical detail that she was formerly in a cult. A different cult. “Lifespring” which the NYer described as “cult like”.
Does that happen?!
They go to all the trouble and anguish of getting deprogrammed and then 20 years later they’re in a different one? I thought it was one and done with cults.
Martin
@Baud: Honestly, I’d expect Putin to give a more neutral analysis.
Martin
@NotMax: $5/mo? Ha. Not a fucking chance in hell. Sunday Ticket was $75/mo.
raven
@NotMax: Nah, everything is going change.
eta. Actually this is good,
The NFL has not been shy about the importance streaming will be in their future media deals. The league wants to transition NFL Sunday Ticket away from DirecTV and make it “a streaming product” when their current deal concludes at the end of the upcoming season
raven
@Martin: For sure. I had redzone and liked it ok but there’s is no way they will only charge $5 a month. The bigger issue, for me anyway, is the Dawgs.
JanieM
Not that I expect logic or any virtues whatsoever from these people, so this is just a despairing rhetorical question, but why should Black people recuse themselves from an affirmative action case any more than white people? Both are affected by the outcome.
different-church-lady
I think the car is already in the ditch, and the only question that remains is can the wrecker get the thing back up and repaired before the gas tank explodes.
Captain C
@Baud: It’s essentially one of his American lackeys, so close enough.
Captain C
@Betty Cracker: You would think, but if, say, Beer’s wife, or Amy Covid’s husband flat out joined ISIS or Al Qaeda as their main English language spokesperson, at least 50% of elected Republicans and 80% of the party’s members would probably convert to something like Evangelicals For Wahhabi Islam (cf. Jews for Jesus) and demand some weird combination of Sharia and Fundie Xian law. Given that those percentages are likely the minimum for Republicans who are happy to commit treason before acknowledging the humanity (let alone legitimacy) of Democrats, I don’t think this is an unreasonable guess.
Captain C
@JanieM:
“Provided every Justice that went to a college with a similar program does likewise, I will too.”
Raven
@raven: It’s baseball (my least favorite) that is really fucked. If you don’t have cable you can’t get your local team. Bally’s bought Fox Sports and put the kibosh on streaming. I didn’t watch any Braves games until the playoffs when they went to a wider distribution.
JoyceH
@Kay:
Oh, fercryinoutloud! Lifespring was never a cult! They marketed themselves rather ferociously, but they were New Agey, self-helpy get-over-your-mental-blocks workshop deals. Those sorts of things were all over the place in the ’80s, part of the ‘human potential movement’. I took a couple of the courses back then, and found it quite helpful, though looking back it strikes me as rather First World Problems self-indulgence.
Sure Lurkalot
@WaterGirl: While nowhere near the egregiousness of CBS hiring Mulvaney, I don’t need to hear any words from Michael Steele, Steve Schmidt or Rick Wilson on MSNBC. They are more than a proximate cause of the mess we’re in and cannot be trusted. They do not seek a fair and equitable commonwealth.
Kay
@JoyceH:
Thomas described it that way:
She then joined “Cult Awareness Network” which sounds religious so maybe her objections were religious.
Geminid
@JoyceH: I knew a guy who was so inspired by Lifespring trainings that he put money he could not afford into a shaky real estate development project. The trainings made him feel like a superman! He lost his money, and when he had to stop buying more trainings he lost his new friends.
Paul once described a training: “I had never been in a room full of men, all crying!” Someone remarked the you could see that in any Denver bar on Superbowl Sunday night. (This was in the early 90’s).
Martin
@JoyceH: Lifespring was definitely classified as a cult. You just didn’t get far enough in it to see that.
Martin
@Sure Lurkalot: While they may have been a proximate cause (don’t disagree) they are also not acting as agents of the DNC willing to lie in order to elect democrats, as Fox News employees are willing to do for the RNC.
burnspbesq
Abramson has no credibility with me. Will wait (and not with bated breath) to see what others come up with.
Kay
The only thing that Manchin and Sinema ever cared about was protecting the Trump tax cuts. None of these deals met that requirement. They went into that negotiation with one goal – save the Trump tax cuts. They’re happy because they achieved the goal.
We all could have saved a lot of time if they had simply told the truth at the outset.
Kay
If Democrats are really desperate for a deal do a modest climate change bill with no tax increases.
The West Virginia weasel will vote for it in 30 seconds. It satisfies his one and only objective.
PJ
Deleted.
Another Scott
Popehat has had issues with him. I think that Adam has cautioned about him as well. (Corrections welcome.)
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Wow, PopeHat doesn’t mince words.
lowtechcyclist
@schrodingers_cat:
Agreed. The only way to find out how good your logic really is, is by seeing how it holds up to criticism. So someone who shuts out critics probably doesn’t have arguments that stand up.
lowtechcyclist
@Kay:
I’d love to be proven wrong, but as best as I can tell, Manchin’s as opposed to undercutting the market for fossil fuels, coal in particular, as he is to tax hikes on rich people. Maybe more so.
dww44
@Sure Lurkalot: I’m all In with Michael Steele hosting on MSNBC this weekend. He’s actually quite good and he deserves this gig, even if it’s temporary. He ‘s been reliably anti trump all along and doesn’t engage in hyperbole. Plus he has a well developed sense of humor.