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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / There oughta be a law…

There oughta be a law…

by Betty Cracker|  April 12, 202212:34 pm| 231 Comments

This post is in: Domestic Politics, Foreign Affairs, Open Threads, Politics

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On this here blog, we’ve briefly touched on the NYT Mag story about the Saudi sovereign wealth fund’s $2 billion investment in Jared Kushner’s fledgling private equity group. The investment is ridiculous on its face since Kushner has catastrophically mismanaged every valuable thing that ever dropped into his pale, soft hands, including a newspaper, a real estate firm and the U.S. pandemic response.

As the NYTM piece details, the advisory panel for the Saudi sovereign wealth fund raised all kinds of objections to the deal, finding after due diligence that the operation of Kushner’s outfit was “unsatisfactory in all aspects.” But the final decision was Mohammed bin Salman’s, and he approved the deal faster than a Saudi hit squad could kill and dismember a journalist.

As NYTM notes, “Ethics experts say that such a deal creates the appearance of potential payback for Mr. Kushner’s actions in the White House — or of a bid for future favor if Mr. Trump seeks and wins another presidential term in 2024.” Ya think? Josh Marshall nails it here:

This is possibly the largest and most brazen instance of public corruption I’ve seen in twenty five years covering American politics as a journalist…

Trump’s son-in-law, callow and hungry, had taken over administration Middle East policy, in the expectations of the big money pay offs the Saudis especially but not only them could provide to the Trump-Kushner family. And here we are with what is certainly just one example of the pay off. We knew it was coming but the sheer scale of it, the sheer openness of it, is bracing to see.

But it’s not just the big money payoff to the tune of over $2 billion. The relationship continues. There’s little question that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, now totally controlled by MBS, continues to work on behalf of the Trump/Kushner family and against the Biden administration.

I think that last point is spot on and perhaps should be amplified by the administration itself and/or Democrats more broadly. The Biden admin recently asked the Saudis to increase production to ease fuel prices, and they blathered about the war in Yemen and basically told us to go pound sand.

We’ve morally compromised ourselves as a nation by propping up that corrupt band of medieval fanatics for decades to act as a hedge against oil shocks, and this is the thanks we get? Fuck that noise.

I’m not a lawyer, but I assume Kushner isn’t breaking any laws by cashing in on his former White House gig and working with a foreign regime that has every incentive to undermine the present administration while working toward the restoration of its predecessor. That should be illegal.

If I were a White House advisor, I’d think about calling on Congress to pass legislation to that effect and look into ways to communicate the situation to the American people, who are pissed off about high gas prices and not big fans of the Saudi regime — or the greedy Trumps.

Whatever “messaging” problems the Dems may or may not have, it’s pretty clear that inflation and high fuel prices are killing us right now. Some political analysts say the party will struggle in the midterms because Trump won’t be on the ballot and people will vote based on how they feel about the country’s situation during the Biden presidency.

Well, this massive corrupt deal might be a way to put Trump back on the ballot and point out that the Saudi monarchy and other greedy, corrupt shitheads are benefiting from the high fuel prices that are breaking American budgets. The sovereign wealth fund advisors warned MBS that the relationship with Kushner could create “public relations risks.” I’m all for making that prediction come true.

Open thread.

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Reader Interactions

231Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 12:39 pm

    Even if the Dems did everything you want, I doubt it would move the needle much.

  2. 2.

    Nicole

    April 12, 2022 at 12:41 pm

    I wish I could think that something like this would have consequences, but I really feel like Fox News has so thoroughly poisoned the American electorate, that its viewers really don’t care about corruption when it’s their side doing it.

    And I have no doubt that the indictment of New York’s lieutenant governor over what I think amounts to about $50,000, is going to be getting far more coverage than Jared Kushner’s $2 billion.

  3. 3.

    Joe Falco

    April 12, 2022 at 12:46 pm

    @Nicole:

    its viewers really don’t care about corruption when it’s their side doing it.

    “Undermining US foreign policy and domestic prosperity for profit? That’s just good business sense!”

  4. 4.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 12:47 pm

    @Baud: I’m afraid I agree, even if it’s utterly baffling to me that it’s not easier to turn a pair of preening fail-sons like MBS and Jared Kushner into villains for the bulk of the American electorate. To say nothing of the fucking Saudi royal family, fercrissake.

    UN rights chief decries mass execution of 81 people in Saudi Arabia
    Among those put to death on 12 March, Ms. Bachelet said she understood that 41 were Muslims from the Shiite minority who had taken part in anti-government protests in 2011-12, calling for greater political participation.

    Barely a month ago. Barely cause a blip in our national discourse.

  5. 5.

    Villago Delenda Est

    April 12, 2022 at 12:49 pm

    Ethics? From a Kushner and a Trump in-law? Surely you jest!

  6. 6.

    Betty Cracker

    April 12, 2022 at 12:52 pm

    Here’s a thought: maybe nothingburgers like Biden’s son’s dumbass laptop and Hillary’s emails get more firmly hooked in the public mind than infinitely more substantial and consequential scandals committed by Republicans because Dems don’t think it matters to talk about this shit. I am not claiming my theory is true. I’m just putting it forward as a possibility.

  7. 7.

    Martin

    April 12, 2022 at 12:52 pm

    Looks more like payment for classified materials to me. Funny how nobody thinks of that when you do it in public.

  8. 8.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 12:53 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: one of the tidbits from Mary Trump’s book was that at the trump-Kushner wedding, Papa K made a toast that basically said that at first he wasn’t sure if the bride was good enough for his princeling, but he was impressed by her apparent dedication in her conversion. Must’ve galled the son of old Fred KKK trump on several levels.

  9. 9.

    Brachiator

    April 12, 2022 at 12:54 pm

    As the NYTM piece details, the advisory panel for the Saudi sovereign wealth fund raised all kinds of objections to the deal, finding after due diligence that the operation of Kushner’s outfit was “unsatisfactory in all aspects.” But the final decision was Mohammed bin Salman’s, and he approved the deal faster than a Saudi hit squad could kill and dismember a journalist.

    Wait a minute. We’re not talking about Hunter Biden here? A relative of a big time political figure who is making deals where he has no expertise?

    What’s in Young Jared’s laptop?

  10. 10.

    Alison Rose ???

    April 12, 2022 at 12:55 pm

    “That should be illegal.” – 99.9% of anything anyone named Trump or connected to someone named Trump does

    Since it’s an OT, I have one nice thing to share and one probably dumb question.

    Nice thing – This organization providing rescue and medical care to animals in Ukraine, both in shelters and otherwise:

    What started as one has now grown to a Six vehicle fleet plus a mobile veterinary clinic which we take around shelters across Ukraine providing free onsite medical care for the animals in need.

    We have already put these vehicles to incredible use, from extracting the 120 remaining animals of Borodyanka in Big Red to providing care at multiple shelters across Ukraine and providing on the ground life saving surgeries to those animals most desperately in need.

    We would like to thank EVERYONE of you who has donate and the following organisations for there contributions of/too the vehicles

    War Paws
    Forgotten Felines of Sonoma County
    Rescuing European Animals in Need -REAN
    Kattjouren

    Kattjouren have also supplied us with the mobile veterinary unit for inside of Ukraine to allow us to deliver on the ground life saving treatment which is awesome!

    Having more vehicles means more personnel which in turn means more vital supplies we can deliver, more animals we can extract and more lives we can save.

    As hopefully most/all of you are aware we are not a charity (yet) which is something I have been 100% transparent about from the start unfortunately we didn’t have time to set this up when the war started. So we could if sat and done nothing for 18 months or get out here and save lives. We are however applying for charity status and will provide teams for future wars, natural disasters, anti poaching and a whole lot more. We LOVE animals if every kind want to do all we can to protect them and make the world a far safer place for every living being we possibly can.

    As you can see from the vehicles and our new logo the breaking the chains animal relief teams will be

    S.T.A.R teams (Specialist Tactical Animal Relief)

    Our teams and team members are dedicated 100% to the preservation of animal life and will operate anywhere to ensure their safety and safe extractions.

    The vehicle logos are in place to allow us continuity when passing through checkpoints, we are been recognised and getting through a lot quicker because of them allowing us more time on the ground to save more lives.

    I know people will ask and yes if people want we can do t-shirts and hoodies etc with all proceeds going to the animals we help.

    Currently or fuel bill is around £1000 a day, we have multiple vehicles in for repairs each week due to the mileage we cover daily and the state of the roads we are moving on.

    As always we appreciate your support, what we are building and doing is simply due to all of you so thank you.

    Forgotten Felines is here in my county, which makes me proud. If you want to donate to the above group, they have a JustGiving page set up.

    And then my maybe dumb unrelated question: I have a MacBook and I also have a few random CDs which I’d like to get into iTunes, so I need some kind of external CD player with a USB port where I can pop the CD in, plug it into my laptop, and rip the songs. But when I try to understand tech specs, my brain says “please don’t do this to us”. Would something like this item do what I need?

  11. 11.

    MisterForkbeard

    April 12, 2022 at 12:57 pm

    @Alison Rose ???: Forgotten Felines does good work – I’m really glad to see someone else from Sonoma that knows them. :)

  12. 12.

    PJ

    April 12, 2022 at 12:59 pm

    @Alison Rose ???: Yes.  If your MacBook only has USB-C inputs, you may also need a USB-A to USB-C cable or converter dongle.

  13. 13.

    MisterForkbeard

    April 12, 2022 at 1:00 pm

    @Alison Rose ???: Regarding your mac/dvd drive, any external drive with a USB-C connection will probably work (Or even a USB-A connection, so long as you buy an additional A->C converter or cable). I’m not an apple person at all, but I can confirm that this one does work: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071ZYK9VP

    Can’t tell you how the ripping process works now in iTunes, but it used to be very simple and I’m sure there are easy guides available on the interwebs.

  14. 14.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 1:00 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    because Dems don’t think it matters to talk about this shit.

    If we’re going to talk about it, then we need to do it the way the Republicans would do it — by constantly talking about Jared Kushner.  But that never happens.

    What happens is that we start talking about it, then move on to what the Dems need to do.  Once you’ve done that, you’re no longer talking about Jared Kushner.  You’re talking about whether and how Dems have failed us if the public doesn’t respond as positively as we’d like them to.

    Even if we did it the right way, we still have a hill to climb getting over media bias.  But I am not confident in our ability to do it the right way.

  15. 15.

    MisterForkbeard

    April 12, 2022 at 1:03 pm

    @Baud: I think you have a key insight here. The Republican noise machine doesn’t actually ever have any discussions on what to do. It’s just that Democrats are wrong, evil and hate you. That’s it, and there’s never anything more to it than that. That allows them to really catapult the propaganda without having attackable positions of their own.

    We can’t really do that partially because we have actual plans, but because we really aren’t just anti-Republican. We don’t just point out their terribleness, we also talk about what we can do to improve. And in the current media environment that’s a negative.

  16. 16.

    JML

    April 12, 2022 at 1:04 pm

    Part of the problem is GOP-appointed judges keep invalidating public corruption laws by pretending that quid pro quo arrangements are political questions to be adjudicated at the ballot box. (Unless they involve Hillary Clinton.)

  17. 17.

    The Golux

    April 12, 2022 at 1:09 pm

    @Alison Rose ???: 

    Would something like this item do what I need?

    That will be fine. It’s plug-and-play (plug-and-rip?). I have a similar one, and have used it both for ripping CDs and playing DVDs.

  18. 18.

    scav

    April 12, 2022 at 1:09 pm

    If were going to work up a brazen effrontery theme of populist politicians to whom laws, ethics, morality, gravity, or virility don’t apply, a wee mention of Bolsonaro’s over 30,000 Viagra pills for military consumption is merited for merely geographic equity. imbrochável!

  19. 19.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 1:12 pm

    Betty’s asking whether a political party can work to direct focus on corruption in the other party.

    I mean, of course they can. When did the standard get so incredibly low where we’re like “no, that would be impossible”. We’ve seen Democrats do it successfully in the last 20 years! We witnessed it!

    Will it be guaranteed a 100% success that can be validated independently? Well, I don’t know but if they can’t do this then that’s a new level of “can’t”.

  20. 20.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 1:15 pm

    @Kay:

    It’s not really about “can” but “should.” Everyone has their own ideas about what will work with voters.  No one really knows.

  21. 21.

    MisterDancer

    April 12, 2022 at 1:15 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: The Republican noise machine doesn’t actually ever have any discussions on what to do. It’s just that Democrats are wrong, evil and hate you.

    Moreover, they scapegoat groups in promoting that — and one of the biggest targets of GOP-driven hate has been Arabic people, as well as people aligned, in Western eyes, to them, like the Turkish and Iranians.

    Indeed: I’m working on an essay for here around how post-9/11 Islamophobia really opened the gates of Hate we see, today. Seeing Academics like Benard Lewis and Richard Dawkins promote hating Arabic folx, really made it easy to get people like Greene into the positions of hate-generated power shes in, today.

    This makes Betty’s approach for targeting the Saudis really risky. Part of why the post-9/11 Islamophobic attacks worked so damn well, was that the Oil Crisis had already been a place where American culture had turned against the Saudis, and turned them/the culture they were part of into caricatures in a lot of media of that era. A lot of that era’s islamophobia was recalled and fed directly into the post-9/11 version.

    And I suspect a lot of the current crop of White Supremacist assholes, learned some ugly lessons from how quickly mainstream culture in America just “accepted” that “Islamic” hate, and then just applied it to other areas.

    Threading that needle is critical, and just slamming the Saudis will not pull it off, I fear. It’ll just piss off the Saudis, not budge the haters, and isolate the many people here who have roots in that region/religion, even if they are here to escape the more repressive elements therein.

    That’s a lose/lose/lose, in my book.

  22. 22.

    Betty Cracker

    April 12, 2022 at 1:18 pm

    @Baud: In case it wasn’t clear, I’m not talking about what we Dems here on this blog talk about or even the larger world of non-elected Dems on social media. If that’s your context, I agree it wouldn’t amount to a fart in a whirlwind. I also agree that would absolutely devolve into tedious arguments about how various Dems factions have failed Dem constituencies, whether because AOC made an ill-advised tweet two years ago or that time a moderate rep collected a donation from Big Pharma.

    Let’s also stipulate the obvious: Dems do not and never will have a massive propaganda machine that creates a feedback loop like Fox News, et al., does for Republicans.

    What we have to work with are elected Democrats and other prominent figures who support the party and whatever messaging they can get past MSM gatekeepers or convey via social media. It doesn’t equal the Wingnut Wurlitzer, but I don’t think we’re completely helpless to affect the narrative, ever. YMMV.

  23. 23.

    Brachiator

    April 12, 2022 at 1:19 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    Here’s a thought: maybe nothingburgers like Biden’s son’s dumbass laptop and Hillary’s emails get more firmly hooked in the public mind than infinitely more substantial and consequential scandals committed by Republicans because Dems don’t think it matters to talk about this shit. I am not claiming my theory is true. I’m just putting it forward as a possibility.

    You might be right, but mainly I think it is just the hypocrisy.

    When the dopes embrace an authoritarian populist, they forgive everything he does.

    I have actually heard people say, “Of course Trump cheats on his taxes. He is a smart businessman!”

    He does what they wish they could do and he gets away with it.

    Grift, conflicts of interest, shady deals? Just makes them love him more.

  24. 24.

    Villago Delenda Est

    April 12, 2022 at 1:20 pm

    @JML: Or Hunter Biden, the most corrupt spawn of any politician, ever.

  25. 25.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    April 12, 2022 at 1:21 pm

    @MisterForkbeard:The Republican noise machine doesn’t actually ever have any discussions on what to do. It’s just that Democrats are wrong, evil and hate you. That’s it, and there’s never anything more to it than that.

    I get the impression it’s the same way with their voters. One of the reason Trump is fading was he gave voice to their hate for Hillary but Biden is hard to hate on.

  26. 26.

    Leto

    April 12, 2022 at 1:22 pm

    @MisterDancer:

    Moreover, they scapegoat groups in promoting that — and one of the biggest targets of GOP-driven hate has been Arabic people, as well as people aligned, in Western eyes, to them, like the Turkish and Iranians.

    The Ten Pillars of Fascism. This is stuff most of us know, but it’s still a handy thing to have to share. Simply, concise.

  27. 27.

    Betty Cracker

    April 12, 2022 at 1:24 pm

    @MisterDancer: The Saudi regime is rightly despised by most Muslims because it is corrupt and awful. Criticizing it for specific, fact-based reasons is absolutely fair game and not at all tantamount to fomenting hate against Arabs and/or Muslims in general.

  28. 28.

    The Moar You Know

    April 12, 2022 at 1:24 pm

    I don’t like the company that the Trump Crime Family keeps.  None of them are working for this nation’s best interests.

  29. 29.

    Ruckus

    April 12, 2022 at 1:24 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    They have ethics.

    Their ethos is that they deserve all the money they can con, steal, whatever, but never ever earn from anything positive. They aren’t different than a lot of humans, they just happen to be stupid enough to live in the spotlights, have the political acumen of burnt toast, actually be unable to create, find, understand anything positive for – well anything/anyone, and think their shit doesn’t stink.

    They are the spokesmen for the hoi polloi, the role models for those who think they are owed everything for providing nothing, the proof that life isn’t fair and that being a massive distraction of others screwing over everyone is a well paying gig.

  30. 30.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 1:26 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    AOC made an ill-advised tweet two years ago

    I still can’t believe she did that.

    What we have to work with are elected Democrats and other prominent figures who support the party and whatever messaging they can get past MSM gatekeepers or convey via social media. It doesn’t equal the Wingnut Wurlitzer, but I don’t think we’re completely helpless to affect the narrative, ever. YMMV.

    Your post talked about changing the narrative for the mid-terms, which is ambitious objective.  I’m just having trouble seeing this as the issue that will do that.

  31. 31.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 1:27 pm

    Deleted

  32. 32.

    Mart

    April 12, 2022 at 1:28 pm

    Jared also collected $1.3 billion from Qatar to save his ass on the “worst real estate deal ever”, the 666 building in Manhattan. This while he was the active Middle East peace dude for TFG. The media never talks about the historic jobs recovery years ahead of any projection, only the price rise that comes with it. Remember how since Reagan’s voodoo economics the plan has always been to dump money on the rich to recover. This time the money was dumped on us, and what a difference a little Keynesian economics makes. Can see “them” working to bury that, focused on inflation and corruption of funds; instead of lifting children out of poverty, being flush with jobs, etc. They don’t want us to have nice things.

  33. 33.

    The Moar You Know

    April 12, 2022 at 1:30 pm

    What happens is that we start talking about it, then move on to what the Dems need to do.  Once you’ve done that, you’re no longer talking about Jared Kushner.  You’re talking about whether and how Dems have failed us if the public doesn’t respond as positively as we’d like them to.

    @Baud: Damn.  You are usually on point but this is ferocious in its rightness.  This is everything wrong with Dem messaging in three sentences.

    Nobody would bother to ask what Republicans would do.  We joke about it.  “Tax cuts”.  That’s all.

    Dems need a similar position that we can stake out so that nobody will bother to ask us either.  Right now, the answer would take hours at a minimum.  And have many qualifications.  And be more than a little incoherent.  And depend on who you’re asking.

  34. 34.

    Alison Rose ???

    April 12, 2022 at 1:30 pm

    @PJ:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    @The Golux:

    Thanks, y’all!

  35. 35.

    Betty Cracker

    April 12, 2022 at 1:33 pm

    @Baud: You may be right that this particular issue wouldn’t change anything. The comment I was replying to seemed to imply that Dems can’t stay on message about any bad thing Republicans do because they’d start arguing about what Dems need to do about it, which would inevitably lead to how Dems are failing us. I think that’s a serviceable description of how comment threads and social media convos unfold, but I don’t necessarily see that reflected in media narratives that might reach uninformed and/or undecided voters.

  36. 36.

    Villago Delenda Est

    April 12, 2022 at 1:36 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Agreed.  Furthermore, the Wahhabi Imams who co-rule Saudi Arabia are every bit as despicable and backwards as our own vile fundigelicals.

  37. 37.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 1:38 pm

    OT

    Why is evil always so unified, while good people have to deal with Joe Machine?

    Legislature makes unusual move, says DeSantis will map Florida congressional districts

  38. 38.

    Kent

    April 12, 2022 at 1:39 pm

    @Alison Rose ???: That will likely work.  You’ll just need one of these to connect it if you don’t have a USB-A port

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KR45LJW/

  39. 39.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 1:39 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    I think that’s a serviceable description of how comment threads and social media convos unfold, but I don’t necessarily see that reflected in media narratives that might reach uninformed and/or undecided voters.

     
    Maybe. I got the impression that the media looks to Twitter for a lot of their narratives.

  40. 40.

    Josie

    April 12, 2022 at 1:39 pm

    One way to get reporters interested in the subject would be to lean on the information we have about MBS and Putin among others literally killing the free press. There is proof out there of this happening in authoritarian regimes, which should make our press a bit nervous, considering that TFG admires these people. Maybe our newly formed social media group could look at this.

  41. 41.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 12, 2022 at 1:40 pm

    @Baud:

    Everyone has their own ideas about what will work with voters.

    This.  Isn’t the most common thing said on this blog that Democrats should be hammering X issue 24/7?  And it’s always a different issue and different people pushing each issue.  Then they switch issues tomorrow.  When Democrats do speak vehemently it gets remembered for five minutes.

     

     

    @MisterDancer:

    I’m working on an essay for here around how post-9/11 Islamophobia really opened the gates of Hate we see, today.

    I have noticed this too, and said so a few times.  Conservatives got to openly and without code words call Islam evil and Muslims terrorists with minimal pushback.  They wanted more.  They had a taste of the real stuff and dog whistles were no longer enough.

  42. 42.

    Gravenstone

    April 12, 2022 at 1:40 pm

    I think my favorite aspect of the whole affair is learning that the advisory committee thought that giving funds to Kushner’s new money sink would cause the KSA public relations problems. When even the KSA sees Kushner et al. as too corrupt to deal with without causing PR issues…

  43. 43.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 1:40 pm

    @Mart: the Qataris also maintain a very expensive, and apparently empty, office suite at 555 California St in San Francisco. Trump’s 30% stake in that building is one of his most valuable individual assets

  44. 44.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 1:41 pm

    Trump paid some for Gulf Arab investments by walking away from tge JCPOA limiting Iran’s nuclear program. People often cite Netanyayus lobbying, and I think Senate Republicans bent Trump’s ear about ending “Obama’s deal.” But those two might not have been enough without Saudi Arabia’s help.

    Trump never delivered on the second half of the deal. When Iran proceeded to ramp up uranian production in tg3e face of the newsanctions, I think JCPOA opponents were hoping that Trump would bomb Iran’s nuclear sites. But they found out what they should have known, that Trump has no one’s back but his own.

    That may be why the Gulf Arabs started patching up things with Israel. They had real common interests, and could not rely on the fickle Trump.

  45. 45.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 1:42 pm

    @Baud:

    Then I would think one would ask “what’s the risk of trying?”

    Part of the reason Republicans attack Democrats (Hunter Biden, Hillary Clinton (still, incredibly) is there’s very little downside risk and some possible upside. It’s not a hugely high stakes decision. The potential upside is they brand the whole D party as corrupt. If they don’t get that they thrill their base. And they lose nothing.

  46. 46.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 1:43 pm

    @Baud:

    Then I would think one would ask “what’s the risk of trying?”

    Part of the reason Republicans attack Democrats (Hunter Biden, Hillary Clinton (still, incredibly) is there’s very little downside risk and some possible upside. It’s not a hugely high stakes decision. The potential upside is they brand the whole D party as corrupt. If they don’t get that they thrill their base. And they lose nothing.

  47. 47.

    Villago Delenda Est

    April 12, 2022 at 1:48 pm

    @Mart: Also, paying attention to the recommendations of an obscure Scotsman writing in 1776 about economics.  Prosperity flows from the bottom to the top, not the other way around.

  48. 48.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 1:50 pm

    If they attack Jared Kushner as corrupt:

    1. nothing happens
    2. something good might happen

    That’s an easy decision. Republicans always go with #2. Anyone would.

  49. 49.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 1:53 pm

    @Kay:

    Then I would think one would ask “what’s the risk of trying?”

    Part of the reason Republicans attack Democrats (Hunter Biden, Hillary Clinton (still, incredibly) is there’s very little downside risk and some possible upside. It’s not a hugely high stakes decision.

     

    Dems suffer from opportunity costs that the GOP doesn’t face because their voters do not care about anything except beating up on Dems. Our voters care about everything under the sun, so choosing poorly does real damage.

    Also too, there’s a theory that focusing on Hunter Biden cost Trump the election. If so, it’s not costless to the GOP either.

  50. 50.

    MisterDancer

    April 12, 2022 at 1:57 pm

    @Betty Cracker: The Saudi regime is rightly despised by most Muslims because it is corrupt and awful. Criticizing it for specific, fact-based reasons is absolutely fair game and not at all tantamount to fomenting hate against Arabs and/or Muslims in general.

    Let me be 100% clear. I never said we cannot criticise the Saudi regime. I said it needed to be done with care. And I strove to explain, based on a theory I’m working on around the rise of White Supremacy, why — including, at the end, an example of it done badly. I don’t think “just the facts” is enough, here.

    I’ve been involved with aspects of these cultures since my teen years — including some asshole-ish acts on my part. When I say “please be cautious about this,” it’s because I’ve not only seen people I know throw even good-faith questions back in my face, but also seen and read too many people who are actually Islamic, or coming from that cultural background (for lack of a better term), point out how often these discussions turn sour, turn against them.

    Example: Post 9/11, President Bush took some pains to do a “Not All Muslims” bit on more than one occasion. That did…not a lot, in the long run, to change the minds of people exposed to waves of Islamophobic content. It didn’t take the anti-Islam books off the shelf, it didn’t stop “Islam is hate” people from coming on TV, etc.

    So when I say “our Gov’t needs to be cautious around this discussion,” it’s from a long memory of good-faith efforts that turned into bad experiences, frankly. It’s not a NO, and if anyone can thread that needle, it’s Biden. Yet it is a needle, and I think it’s critical to call it out as such.

    As far as the regime itself: Do I need to run up the fact that, as a Man who Belly Dances, the Saudi regime would be putting my Big Black Ass up against the wall well before many, here? How they’ve decimated so much of their arts in ways that make my heart ache to think about it? That I’ve known of their perversity and corruption for decades? To talk about my pal who actually converted to Wahhabism, and the toxicity of our relationship since?

    I promise you, I know the Saudis are horrific as a regime, both personally and politically. I would greatly enjoy having our Government bring them to task, and to call out the Saudi and other, similar regimes in the region. There is so much power and joy and wisdom in these cultures, aspects we rarely get to see, aspects I’ve only ever gotten glimpses of.

    I’m not writing this to be difficult, Betty. I’m writing this because I can’t help but care about this region, and the people connected to it. and yes, in my estimation, there’s a major risk in just calling out the Saudi regime, without ensuring people fully understand the oppressions going on, and how ordinary people feel about it. People here don’t see the Saudi state in the same light they see, say, Iran, esp. after the Arab Spring.

    You have no idea how much I wish that wasn’t the case.

  51. 51.

    Soprano2

    April 12, 2022 at 1:59 pm

    @Brachiator: Yep, part of what they absolutely love about TFG is the things he gets away with. They live vicariously through him about the things they wish they could get away with – cheating on their taxes, cheating on their wives, saying absolutely vile stuff and being cheered on for it.

  52. 52.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 2:01 pm

    I’m frustrated by the double standard too, but if people are going to propose a strategy that looks to GOP tactics for inspiration, they have to explain (1) what is the mirror image of right-wing media and (2) what is the mirror image of the GOP’s deplorable, cultish base.  Because those two things (along with a deferential mainstream media) are the legs that prop up the Republican stool.

  53. 53.

    ian

    April 12, 2022 at 2:01 pm

    @Baud:

    there’s a theory that focusing on Hunter Biden cost Trump the election

    Pandemic response.  Almost every other country (and many states) saw their leadership approval ratings bounce.  If the orange jerkwad had even tried, my guess is he could have won.  My (entirely based on gut instinct) opinion is that anyone who knew who Hunter Biden was already knew enough about politics to have made their decision.   Undecided voters would care about things that are far more relevant to them.

  54. 54.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 2:04 pm

    @Baud: Did you take a look at the BJ social media initiative?
    BTW I think Ds are doing everything that True Progressives accuse them of not doing.

  55. 55.

    tam1MI

    April 12, 2022 at 2:05 pm

    @The Moar You Know: Dems need a similar position that we can stake out so that nobody will bother to ask us either.

    The proper position to stake out is, “Prosecute them.” Unfortunately, the position that most often gets staked out is, “Blame Democrats”.

  56. 56.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 2:05 pm

    @Baud: Shitposting on Twitter is the strategy judging from many “progressive accounts including the Squad and BS adjacent, senators like EW and Markey.

  57. 57.

    MisterDancer

    April 12, 2022 at 2:06 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: I have noticed this too, and said so a few times. Conservatives got to openly and without code words call Islam evil and Muslims terrorists with minimal pushback. They wanted more.

    Yep, and I’ll make a note to credit you saying this as well (and remind me if I post it and don’t mention you!)

  58. 58.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 12, 2022 at 2:07 pm

    @Kay: ​

    nothing happens

    And a limited opportunity to get messaging before the media is lost. Meanwhile, Democratic voters here on this blog are whining that elected Democrats are not messaging against some other thing they hate. Also the elected Democrats who will speak out on the issue mostly won’t be heard or remembered. Yes, there is a cost, an opportunity cost. A big opportunity cost. I doubt Jared Kushner’s corruption is going to seem like a central enough issue to voters that it will be a message the party works to make one of their major issues. Or maybe they will and they haven’t yet. If they do, it won’t be because there was no cost to doing so.

  59. 59.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 2:08 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: I’m sure Dems are doing a lot that I don’t see.  People wouldn’t be having these conversations if the Dems were  as high as they morally should be in the current polling.

  60. 60.

    satby

    April 12, 2022 at 2:09 pm

    @Betty Cracker: maybe nothingburgers like Biden’s son’s dumbass laptop and Hillary’s emails get more firmly hooked in the public mind than infinitely more substantial and consequential scandals committed by Republicans because Dems don’t think it matters to talk about this shit.

    Eric Boehlert’s last column talked about how the press is rooting against Biden by burying factual good news and highlighting any possible negative spin they can. I think the Democrats can talk about Republican corruption often and loudly, but without a neutral media digging up and reporting the corruption in our system most voters will discount it as just partisan sparring. Our shitty press is taking down democracy. As Biden reportedly said, Murdoch is the most dangerous man in America.

  61. 61.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 2:11 pm

    @Baud:

    It’s only in the last 5 years has aggressive politicking been characterized as “GOP tactics”. Bill Clinton was a fucking ruthless competitor and so was Obama. I must be the only person who watched Obama’s campaign absolutely hammer Mitt Romney in 2012. People like to say Obama was “hope and change” – yeah, that, and absolutely brutal attacks on his opponents.

    What I saw in 2012 was a populist Obama campaign that depicted Mitt Romney as an aloof, clueless rich person from the moment he got the nomination. He never recovered. There wasn’t a single month he was ahead.

    Democrats know how to do this. They’ve just forgotten. Depicting the other side as “corrupt” is no more a “GOP tactic” than depicting Mitt Romney as “elitist” was. It’s permitted.

  62. 62.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 12, 2022 at 2:13 pm

    @satby:

    the press is rooting against Biden by burying factual good news and highlighting any possible negative spin they can.

    The press is terrible at persuading Americans what to think about any issue, but they are great at defining what issues are being discussed.  Information the national press pretends doesn’t exist mostly will not exist even to the politically engaged.

  63. 63.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 2:13 pm

    @ian: That was a close election. Not close as in disputable, but close as in: both candidates needed to run focused, efficient campaigns to win. Joe Biden did.

    Trump’s team thought they had a home run in the laptop story, but it turned out to be a pop foul ball that was an easy out. There was an opportunity cost here, of messaging bandwidth that might have been put to better use in the critical last weeks of the campaign. Instead they floundered around trying to get a call from the umpires.

  64. 64.

    syphonblue

    April 12, 2022 at 2:14 pm

    I think the reason Democrats are going to struggle this year is because every media outlet has giant 128-point bold font headlines, uncritically saying “INFLATION AT HIGHEST POINT IN 40 YEARS” on page 1/the front page, and over on page 85/73 clicks further in in -7 point font is “Corporations rake in biggest profits in 40 years” and never once put 2 and 2 together

  65. 65.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 2:16 pm

    @Kay: No one is arguing against aggressive politicking.  We’re arguing over whether, and to what extent, talking about Jared Kushner (who isn’t on any ballot in November) is something the Dems should make hay about.  We debating what to focus on, not how to hammer the GOP on that issue.

  66. 66.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 2:17 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Yeah, all of this seems like elaborate, overthought justifications for not doing something.

    It doesn’t require all this analysis. Attacking your opponent as corrupt when they are corrupt should not take 6 months of meetings and data analysis with crosstabs. It’s rhetoric. Talking. And it needs to be TIMELY. It can’t go to committee. You just stand up and say it at the time the corruption is uncovered. Saying it 6 months later won’t matter.

  67. 67.

    CaseyL

    April 12, 2022 at 2:18 pm

    The Trump Crime Family sold away security secrets, and is still decent-odds bid to take power again in 2024.  The US is simply a failing nation, because half its voting population is dumber than dirt and meaner than a snake.*

    The media gets a lot of blame – but in the end, people chose to be the way they are.  So it’s on the voters, too many of whom don’t care about this shit.

    I don’t see that changing any time soon.

    * No offense to snakes intended; they’re wonderful creatures, and probably not mean at all.  Just can’t think of a better metaphorical critter, other than humans.

  68. 68.

    Betty Cracker

    April 12, 2022 at 2:22 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: It’s not just about Jared Kushner’s corruption — it’s about the direct links between Trump/Kushner corruption in 2016-2020 and high gas prices in 2022. It’s about how acts of public corruption at the highest levels of government built a relationship between domestic and foreign fat cats that is having an ongoing effect on domestic politics. Maybe people wouldn’t care about that, but I don’t think we know that. Seems like a pretty big fucking problem to me.

  69. 69.

    satby

    April 12, 2022 at 2:25 pm

    @satby: And somehow in fixing a typo I lost the link to Boehlert’s last blog post. It’s well worth the read, and at the time it was first published I hoped he would do a series calling out the bad faith of the media.

  70. 70.

    Sure Lurkalot

    April 12, 2022 at 2:27 pm

    @MisterDancer: I appreciate your perspective. I was in graduate school during the Iran hostage crisis and the married student housing complex I lived in had a number of Iranian students and families as tenants. They were threatened and hunkered down, even in good old liberal Boulder.

    Still, I feel it’s worth noting that Bush’s “not all Muslims” speeches after 9/11 could be construed as other than magnanimity…the story of the Bush family’s ties to the House of Saud are pretty credible.

  71. 71.

    satby

    April 12, 2022 at 2:29 pm

    @Kay: Someone is saying it all the fucking time. Politicians, media watchdogs, average schmucks like me. Arrayed against a party that has abandoned truth and democracy in pursuit of power, and a complicit media helping them, it’s difficult to get traction. But claiming no one is calling out the corruption and other bad acts is not correct.

  72. 72.

    Sure Lurkalot

    April 12, 2022 at 2:37 pm

    @Baud: I’m not looking for the Dems to make the Jared story last until the midterms but I do think they could hammer on it and other such tidbits for a few days and then move on to the next, and so on. There’s no fucking shortage of material. These things add up.

  73. 73.

    MisterDancer

    April 12, 2022 at 2:40 pm

    @Sure Lurkalot: I feel it’s worth noting that Bush’s “not all Muslims” speeches after 9/11 could be construed as other than magnanimity

    Oh, that is more than fair as an assessment. It’s just one thing that really stuck with me, around how the American Goverment has openly addressed this issue.

  74. 74.

    Martin

    April 12, 2022 at 2:44 pm

    @Sure Lurkalot: Yeah, Bush seemed much more open to expanding the GOP tent than most GOPers were.

    That said, the investigations into every muslim student and faculty member after 9/11 put me on a first name basis with a hell of a lot of FBI agents.

  75. 75.

    Benw

    April 12, 2022 at 2:44 pm

    @Kay: Romney’s campaign died about 30 seconds after “Please proceed, Governor.” You could watch it happening on Romney’s face. That was so sweet.

  76. 76.

    Alison Rose ???

    April 12, 2022 at 2:46 pm

    @Kent: Yeah, I poked around the site then asked their customer service to tell me which one I should get, LOL

  77. 77.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 12, 2022 at 2:46 pm

    @Kay:

    Yeah, all of this seems like elaborate, overthought justifications for not doing something.

    Reality and good decision making are complicated.  If you want a unified campaign loud enough to be heard over the noise?  That’s not a casual decision.

  78. 78.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 2:47 pm

    As far as I can tell, Elizabeth Warren hasn’t tweeted about Jared, and she’s usually on top of corruption issues.

  79. 79.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 2:48 pm

    @Sure Lurkalot: Yeah, a $2 billion dollar loan is real money and hopefully some Democratic Senators will hammer the Trump family on this, and try to drag other Republicans into it. The loan might not even be illegal but it still smells. Make Kushner and Trump explain, and when they don’t (or even if they do) holler the evergreen “What are they trying to HIDE!?”

  80. 80.

    patroclus

    April 12, 2022 at 2:51 pm

    @Baud: You make a good point about Kushner, with which I agree, but you didn’t focus on the much more compelling issue of what the Democrats should do.  I mean, have they failed us by not doing the right thing or have they failed us by not messaging correctly?  How will this affect whether and how much the Dems are in disarray?  By focusing so much on Kushner, you seem to be missing the key question of what Dems should do.

  81. 81.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 2:52 pm

    They;ve been running on this for 2 years:

    Republican politicians routinely claim that cities run by Democrats have been experiencing crime waves caused by failed governance, but a new study shows murder rates are actually higher in states and cities controlled by Republicans.
    “We’re seeing murders in our cities, all Democrat-run,” former President Donald Trump asserted at a March 26 rally in Georgia. “People are afraid to go out.”
    Last December, Rep. Dan Crenshaw, R-Texas, told Fox News viewers, “America’s most beautiful cities are indeed being ruined by liberal policies: There’s a direct line between death and decay and liberal policies.”

    The study found that murder rates in the 25 states Trump carried in 2020 are 40% higher overall than in the states Biden won. (The report used 2020 data because 2021 data is not yet fully available.) The five states with the highest per capita murder rate — Mississippi, Louisiana, Kentucky, Alabama and Missouri — all lean Republican and voted for Trump

    I thought it at the time. I know there are huge crime problems in GOP run areas.

    But Democrats have to say it. And they have to say it immediately, when the attack starts. These stastitics are compiled by the federal government. They’re available to anyone. They don’t even have to hire anyone to compile them. This isn’t “news”, it’s a depiction of reality. But what’s the perceived reality? That “Democrat-run” cities and states are crime ridden and GOP cities and states are crime-free.

    Did you know DeSantis’ Miami has both a higher violent crime rate and a higher property crime rate than NYC? It does.

  82. 82.

    Brachiator

    April 12, 2022 at 2:53 pm

    @Baud:

    I’m frustrated by the double standard too, but if people are going to propose a strategy that looks to GOP tactics for inspiration, they have to explain (1) what is the mirror image of right-wing media and (2) what is the mirror image of the GOP’s deplorable, cultish base. Because those two things (along with a deferential mainstream media) are the legs that prop up the Republican stool.

    At some point, I cannot be inspired by GOP tactics. It presumes that people are stupid and want their angers and resentments satisfied.

    If the Democrats had a propaganda channel, I would never watch it.

    I am not holier than anyone else. And I understand that politics can be rough and tumble.

    But maybe in some ways we have to be smarter than Republicans. Maybe this is an added burden.

  83. 83.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 2:54 pm

    @satby: it was a little more than a year ago that the do-nothing Democrats impeached trump, for the second time. They got a record number of Senators from the impeached president’s party to vote to convict and remove, and disqualify for office in the future. That sounds like “trying” to me. The country collectively shrugged and moved on. And they haven’t changed that much since.

    Mitch Fucking McConnell and Lindsey Fucking Graham, two of the most ruthless and cynical partisans of my lifetime, thought trump was a spent political force. Not for the first time (Access Hollywood, firing Comey, Helsinki), they underestimated the apathy of the American people. Not for the first time, I imagine they were thrilled to be wrong.

    The underlying (unspoken, probably unrecognized) conceit of Do-Somethingism is that lying dormant, really just resting its eyes, in the breast of the (white) American yeomanry is a profound commitment to civic virtue and Constitutional principle, just waiting for those damn Democrats to speak the magic words that will awaken that idealism. The  don’t know what those words are, but Democrats should figure it out, and if they can’t, it must mean they didn’t even try.

  84. 84.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 12, 2022 at 2:54 pm

    @Kay:

    Democrats have to say it. And they have to say it immediately, when the attack starts.

    That’s going to be pretty hard, since this has been Republican gospel for fifty years.

  85. 85.

    Betty Cracker

    April 12, 2022 at 2:58 pm

    @Baud: Haven’t seen a peep out of Warren or any other elected Dem, though to be fair, I haven’t gone looking. The only high profile-ish person I’ve seen in my timeline speak up on the issue is Dan Goldman:

    I don’t want to hear another word about Hunter Biden.

    But I would like to hear about congressional investigations related to this investment. https://t.co/PXWx5ruH0z

    — Daniel Goldman (@danielsgoldman) April 11, 2022

  86. 86.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 3:00 pm

    @Betty Cracker: I checked Warren because she’s usually strong on this sort of issue and I thought it would be interesting to see how she framed it, to the extent Dems are going to get into it. I went back through her tweets a few weeks, but I didn’t see anything.

  87. 87.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:00 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Oh, again. Of course. They can’t.

    I’m telling you that if I were the governor of one of these blue states and the governor of Florida with it’s HUGE crime problem came at me with “Democrat run places are crime ridden” I would respond . 

    I suppose I could poll on it, or do an elaborate cost/benefit analysis but I don’t think I need that. They’re lying. Respond.

  88. 88.

    Soprano2

    April 12, 2022 at 3:03 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: The press is terrible at persuading Americans what to think about any issue, but they are great at defining what issues are being discussed.

    And then acting as if they have zero agency as to what is covered. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard them say some variation of “we have to cover this” as if they are being made to do it by forces beyond their control. Sure, someone forced the NY Times to constantly hammer on Hillary’s e-mails. *rolleyes* They were made to jump from one TFG scandal to the next without dwelling on any of them for more than a day or two by some implacable outside actor. They never make an actual decision in these matters, at least according to them. Their denial of agency is breathtaking once you start paying attention to it. And then there’s the narrative. Notice how they cannot talk about us leaving Afghanistan without saying some version of “botched evacuation” even though that part lasted ONE DAY! The narrative of the “botched evacuation” has been set, and they cannot deviate from it even one inch. Again, as if they have no agency to look into it for themselves to report what really happened.  That one guy tried to hang on the wheel of the plane, so Biden “botched” it.

  89. 89.

    Ryan

    April 12, 2022 at 3:03 pm

    Note to autocrats.  Target failsons.

  90. 90.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 3:05 pm

    @Soprano2: Agree completely, especially on the Afghanistan point.

  91. 91.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 12, 2022 at 3:05 pm

    @Kay:

    I would respond .

    First, they’ve been hearing this shit for fifty years.  No, it’s not a priority.  Second, if they have decided to make the argument that Republican states are worse, which doesn’t sound like a messaging winner, why would you have heard they said it?  The news is not exactly plastered with every political argument Democratic governors make.  Even the internet doesn’t cover 95% of it.  Or more.

    EDIT – I have completely lost my patience with “I have not personally heard enough Democrats saying X that I would like them to say, therefor Democrats are committing terrible messaging malpractice” arguments.  It’s a combination of the worst of green lanternism, backseat quarterbacking, and blaming the victim.

  92. 92.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:06 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    There’s a huge group of Democratic voters who weren’t ALIVE 50 years ago. They don’t know any of this. The electorate isn’t static and composed of political scientists. It’s a moving target.

    You have to tell each successive group of Democratic voters what the Democratic Party is, or the Republican Party will tell them what the Democratic Party is. Those are your choices. There’s no “not telling” option.

  93. 93.

    Brachiator

    April 12, 2022 at 3:07 pm

    @Kay:

    Last December, Rep. Dan Crenshaw, R-Texas, told Fox News viewers, “America’s most beautiful cities are indeed being ruined by liberal policies: There’s a direct line between death and decay and liberal policies.”

    There was some GOP politician who claimed that there were Muslim no-go zones in Denmark or somewhere. When he became ambassador, the Danish press challenged him on it, made him back down.

    The GOP lies all the time. The media gives them a pass.

    They like to think that Republican white Christians in red states are living in paradise.

    These fools need to be called out on their lies.

  94. 94.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 3:07 pm

    @Soprano2: and on the other side of the coin: Has Biden gotten any credit from people who cited “forever war” as one of the reasons they didn’t want to vote for him? Or why they couldn’t bring themselves to vote for That Woman?

  95. 95.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 3:10 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I haven’t seen anything a single word of praise.

  96. 96.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:11 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Another “not a priority”. Okey doke. Basic public safety is now off the priority list.

    What’s on the priority list? Just Obamacare subsidies?

    I don’t care if they don’t do it. But I sure as hell would. If you’re not going to defend your own work what will you defend?

  97. 97.

    zhena gogolia

    April 12, 2022 at 3:11 pm

    @Baud: And isn’t it interesting how little anyone cares about what’s happening in Afghanistan right now? They don’t give a shit about the country. It was just a cudgel to hit Biden with.

  98. 98.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 3:11 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: You and me both.

  99. 99.

    Calouste

    April 12, 2022 at 3:12 pm

    @Josie: A lot of media people are lazy legacy hires. They see a situation where their job basically consists of verbatim repeating what the Ministry of Information tells them as something to strive for, not as something to avoid. Wouldn’t want to be doing any actual work, people might mistake you for a commoner.

  100. 100.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 3:14 pm

    @zhena gogolia: I’m not the least bit surprised.  Lots of crocodile tears for Afghan women at the time, but that’s old news I guess.  I’m just waiting for all those concerned journalists to start caring about how the women of Texas are being treated.

  101. 101.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:15 pm

    @Brachiator:

    It’s just been amazing to watch. I’m thinking “Memphis? Excuse me?”

    Texas cities are peaceful crime free havens? Since fucking when? This is nonsense. And the “investment” in calling it nonsense is words. It’s not like they have to put 20 million dollars into it and completely forego all the other words. It’s words. They have a lot of those. They can have health care words and “Miami is a fucking basket case” words. Same price.

  102. 102.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 12, 2022 at 3:16 pm

    @Kay:

    I don’t care if they don’t do it.

    Apparently you care passionately that Democrats make a fuss loud enough to be heard over the noise about every side issue that catches your attention, because you’re here pitching a fit about it again.  Kushner being corrupt and Republicans repeating for the fifty millionth time (Remember Trump going on about it?  I do.) that they believe Democratic-run cities are pits of violent brown people crime are not nearly as high priority as, say, defending and explaining the ACA, which Obama went on tour to do and nobody knew about it.

  103. 103.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 3:16 pm

    I don’t know about House and Senate people, but whenever I see Biden, he’s always pretty strong about selling his accomplishments.

  104. 104.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 3:17 pm

     I have completely lost my patience with “I have not personally heard enough Democrats saying X that I would like them to say, therefor Democrats are committing terrible messaging malpractice” arguments.  It’s a combination of the worst of green lanternism, backseat quarterbacking, and blaming the victim.

    An apt description of @Kay’s commentary by @Frankensteinbeck:

  105. 105.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 3:18 pm

    @Kay: I think the problem is most cities have Democratic mayors so it’s harder to attack each other.  Rural crime rates are worse than urban ones, but no one cares about rural areas and certainly no one wants to blame the GOP for it.

  106. 106.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 3:18 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: Nope nothing is good enough.

  107. 107.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 3:18 pm

    @Kay:

    Ohio has more crime than New York. Every day, there’s another shooting or few. The latest thing around here is stealing catalytic converters. A nonprofit that delivers meals to elderly and housebound has had their vans’ relieved of the catalytic converters six times in the last few months.

  108. 108.

    Old School

    April 12, 2022 at 3:21 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    First, they’ve been hearing this shit for fifty years.

    Then it might be a good time to try to change the narrative.

  109. 109.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 3:22 pm

    @debbie: What is Tim Ryan talking about as he campaigns?  He would have a better idea of what Ohio voters care about than I do.

  110. 110.

    satby

    April 12, 2022 at 3:22 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:  not even a circular firing squad, half of them turn the gun right toward their own chest before firing.

  111. 111.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:23 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

     and blaming the victim.

    Obama never thought he was a victim. He thought he was in a competition and he wanted to win. All the winning Democrats have that in common. They also (sit down for this part) sometimes used “tactics”. They were super mean. But that was before we designated all politicking as exclusively the province of the Republican Party and beneath us.
    Don’t try anything. Nothing matters. After all, with “the media” and all the other barriers it’s not even worth trying. It won’t work!

  112. 112.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 12, 2022 at 3:24 pm

    @Old School:

    Then it might be a good time to try to change the narrative.

    Good luck, since the narrative is based on the rock solid conviction by every racist that brown people are scary criminals.  It’s definitely worth responding to occasionally, but it’s not worth freaking out that we haven’t yet heard about someone responding to it this time it came up.

  113. 113.

    mrmoshpotato

    April 12, 2022 at 3:24 pm

    @MisterForkbeard:

    I think you have a key insight here. The Republican noise machine doesn’t actually ever have any discussions on what to do. It’s just that Democrats are wrong, evil and hate you. 

    That’s FOX “News”‘s programming notes for everything.

  114. 114.

    Ruckus

    April 12, 2022 at 3:25 pm

    @Mart:

    They don’t want us to have nice things.

    The cheap crap they buy looks like what it’s really worth when seen aside things that people who actually have to watch what and how they spend purchase. So anyone that can spend reasonably wisely is going to make their crap purchases look exactly like what they are – cheap crap. Bought by cheap crap.

  115. 115.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 3:26 pm

    @Kay: You are  quoting me quoting @Frankensteibeck completely out of context. Congratulations that is very Republican of you

    Don’t try anything. Nothing matters. After all, with “the media” and all the other barriers it’s not even worth trying. It won’t work!

    WTF is this gibberish? How do you conclude this based on anything I have said. You have stopped making any sense. 

  116. 116.

    Gravenstone

    April 12, 2022 at 3:27 pm

    @zhena gogolia: The crocodile tears lamenting the Taliban abuse of women of “others” will resume just in time to use them as a cudgel against Democrats next fall ahead of the election.

  117. 117.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 3:28 pm

    @Kay: funny to me to see you advocating Obama as a political model

    a couple of months ago I made the (I thought) modest suggestion that Barack Obama and Joe Biden might be better models for national Democrats than Bernie Sanders and AOC(!). A commenter using the nym “Kay” said I was just like Tom Cotton and the 1776 Project. Was that you?

    I have wondered more than once in the last few months if there weren’t more than one commenter using that nym

  118. 118.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:30 pm

    @debbie:

    Sure it does. But that isn’t the narrative, is it? No one attacks DeWine on Ohio crime although they could because Ohio, too, has a crime problem.  So maybe, just maybe, it isn’t just a matter of people perusing facts and making rational decisions. Maybe they are influenced by what they hear. All of advertising and marketing depends on this so if it isn’t true we have millions of people working in industries that have no practical effect.

    Again- I don’t even think you have to ask. Should Democrats attack Republicans on the crime rate in GOP-led states and cities as a response to two years of GOP attacks in D-led states and cities? Of course they should. It’s not even a decision. They’re already attacking you. Rebutting them won’t make the attacks more effective. They’ll either do nothing or be an effective rebuttal.

  119. 119.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 3:32 pm

    Obama also talked a lot about how he didn’t believe in red states and blue states, and how there were good folks on the other side, the kind of standard political rhetoric that polls, and election results, show that Dems and Dem-leaning voters like to hear, and that drives a lot of the on-line left, including people here at stodgy and pragmatic (though less of both than it used to be) Balloon Juice, crazy.

  120. 120.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:33 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I have no idea what you’re talking about.

  121. 121.

    germy

    April 12, 2022 at 3:38 pm

    I see Gilbert Gottfried has bitten the big one.

  122. 122.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:39 pm

    It doesn’t matter. They’ll do what they do. But in my estimation as an observer they are less aggressive and less effective than they used to be. I date it to 2016.

    I like Biden. I think he does a good job. But he’s the President and he has a more than full plate and he’s the President of the whole country not the Democrats.

    The Party is supposed to handle politicking, and if they really “can’t” because of insurmountable structural disadvangtages then there’s not much point in having a political operation. This is the job.

  123. 123.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 3:40 pm

    @germy: Oh, too bad.  RIP.

  124. 124.

    Betty Cracker

    April 12, 2022 at 3:41 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: FWIW, “it won’t work” is a pretty fair summary of lots of comments in this thread. And that’s fine — we’re sharing opinions, and that’s an opinion. But it really does feel like learned helplessness sometimes.

  125. 125.

    Sure Lurkalot

    April 12, 2022 at 3:42 pm

    @Geminid: The $2B is not a loan, it’s an investment in a private equity firm.

    Or maybe it is a loan in essence and the repayment terms are future favorable treatment if dog forbid the horrid family gets back in power.

    Maybe in memory of Jamal Khashoggi the media and the Dems could spend time on the Kushner story. The Trump administration participated in the Saudis coverup of the murder.  The whole thing stinks to high heaven as past and future payment.

    Meanwhile, there a federal investigation into Hunter Biden.

  126. 126.

    satby

    April 12, 2022 at 3:42 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: Republicans as a majority in Congress changed the laws in 1996 to eliminate federal funding of gun violence /gun control as a public safety issue, because the factual findings supported gun control. Republicans have been lying about crime and policies probably longer than that. I’m from “Chicago”, which is a lovely, reasonably safe city that became a code word for “urban hellhole run by Democrats” sometime in the 60s (concurrent with civil rights passage and unrest). In spite of the fact that Chicago, per capita, has less murders and crime compared to many a red state city, so this has bugged me for decades. Crime statistics are ignored if they don’t tell the story that white folks of a Republican bent want to hear: That large multicultural cities run by Democrats are generally safe, generally nice places to live, and offer more opportunities. Which is why do many rural areas lose their kids to them.

    Ok, this made me laugh:

    Apparently you care passionately that Democrats make a fuss loud enough to be heard over the noise about every side issue that catches your attention, because you’re here pitching a fit about it again.

  127. 127.

    UncleEbeneezer

    April 12, 2022 at 3:43 pm

    @Baud: There’s also no winning for Dem messaging.  Our side is a coalition of people and groups that passionately care about numerous issues and the policies that can address them.  If Dems somehow picked one topic, say Republican corruption and unified to hammer it endlessly, people on our side would immediately complain that they didn’t choose the right issue and use it as further evidence that Dems Suck.  It’s not a hypothetical.  Just look at any time when Dems are somewhat unified on messaging whether it was Voting Rights, BBB, The Insurrection, etc., the immediate response from our side is always “but what about ___?  So you don’t care about that?”  If Dems avoid specifics and make the sorts of generalizations as the GOP does, we will immediately object and ask for details and policies and more than just platitudes.  Our voters, orgs and advocates would never allow Dems to have a simple, unified message.  NEVER!  Even something as simple as: “Republicans Are The Problem” which is a simple but completely accurate statement on EVERY issue is immediately rejected because it’s too vague and we need a reason to vote “FOR Democrats” etc.  Even aside from our side not having a FoxNoise machine, there are still incredible differences and constraints on messaging just based on our voters.

    We’ve seen Critical Race Theory!, Afghanistan, Transgender Athletes, Inflation etc., amplified in damn-near unison from the Right over the past year and you know what I never, ever saw?  I never once saw Republicans complaining that the GOP was focussing on the wrong thing and why aren’t they instead focussed on X? and threatening not to vote for them because of it and saying “see? this is why we lost the Senate.”  And the cold hard truth is that broad messages that would appeal to the swing voters we need to win in 2022/4, would be too vague,  cringe-y, Centrist etc. in the eyes of passionate activists on our side.

    The fact that we have a Murc’s Law on our side but there is nothing even remotely equivalent for the GOP (because GOP voters don’t reflexively blame their own for every failure) illustrates the incredible difference in our situations and constraints on our messaging strategies.

  128. 128.

    Ruckus

    April 12, 2022 at 3:45 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Dems want to play nice. They want the discussions, the concept of give and take, of earning your position by being correct and human.

    Rethuglicans want to win so they can screw you over without penalty.

    Dems are trying to govern a diverse, large country.

    Rethuglicans are trying to steal everything not tied down and most of what is.

    It’s not a different approach to government, it’s the difference between governing and theft. What dems are doing is attempting to take away the only rational that rethuglicans have – theft of everything. We aren’t playing the same game or by the same rules. And it’s been this way since the basic concepts of money were advanced, that there is value in a commonly agreed upon entity that we call monetary value.

  129. 129.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 3:47 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Fair enough, but I didn’t say that.

  130. 130.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:48 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    If it were even “it won’t work and think of the risk!” or “it won’t work and think of the additional investment in your losing strategy!” But it isn’t. It’s just “won’t/can’t work”.

    I’ve been working with ordinary Democratic Party volunteers for years. They’re much less risk averse than their leaders. It just gets really disheartening sometimes. My experience last week was watching local pro-choice advocates stand up for the imprisoned woman in their county, where they live and work, while reading Nancy Pelosi critique pro-choice advocates. It pisses me off. They shouldn’t be taking all the risk.

  131. 131.

    Jinchi

    April 12, 2022 at 3:51 pm

    $2 billion is suspiciously identical to the money Trump bragged about “turning down” from Middle East magnate Sajwani in January 2017 (days before his inauguration).

    He hastened to add that it would be “perfectly legal’ for him to accept it since the president isnt bound by  conflict-of-interest. laws.

    I always thought that was his way of setting a minimum bid price for  bribes from international entities.

    Seems like the Saudi prince considered it entirely reasonable.

  132. 132.

    germy

    April 12, 2022 at 3:52 pm

    @Kay:

    I share your frustration but the usual group of reactionary centrists will explode in outrage every time if you try to express it.

  133. 133.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 12, 2022 at 3:53 pm

    @Ruckus:

    I agree.  Republican voters have entirely different basic values than Democratic voters.  It’s a tough environment to figure out messaging in, where ‘attack the latest thing heard on the news’ is sometimes wise, sometimes unwise, sometimes not possible, and often not worth the effort.  It’s not at all a simple, obvious process.

  134. 134.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:54 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    I know what’s going to happen with abortion rights. There will be grass roots and local actions like we saw last week. Just once I would like to see national Democrats leading that, helping to put it together, publicly standing up for them. They cannot put this whole thing on their voters. They have to assume some risk.

    They can’t ask their supporters to do what they won’t do. I’m nervous about canvassing now. I never used to be but I am now. I live here and I know how rabid Trump supporters are and I know they’re all armed. So I tell people that. I say “this is riskier for you than it was before”. If it gets to the point where I won’t do it I won’t ask them to.

  135. 135.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 3:54 pm

    @germy:

    the usual group of reactionary centrists

    Are you referring to people here, or media figures?

  136. 136.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 3:58 pm

    @germy:

    It’s fine. What bothers me is what I see as a decline. As getting worse at it. I sometimes think it’s covid – they’re rusty!-  and other times I think Trump threw Democratic electeds in some profound way that they haven’t recovered from. But I do date it from 2016. Not in a “Hillary’s fault” kind of way. She’s fucking brutal and always has been. She’s not the problem.

  137. 137.

    Kent

    April 12, 2022 at 4:02 pm

    I haven’t followed this whole thread.  But it strikes me that the enormous difference between Hunter Biden and the Kushners BESIDES the enormous difference in the amount of money is that the Kushners were both top White House staffers through the entire Trump Presidency and also top Trump Campaign staffers as well.

    Hunter Biden was never remotely connected to either the Biden Vice Presidency, or Biden Presidency.  And he was never on any of Biden’s campaign staffs.  So, unlike the Kushners, he was always just a private citizen and not bound by any conflict of interest standards.  As White House employees the Kushners have actual conflict of interest standard to follow which they are flagrantly violating.

    That is an enormous difference right there.

  138. 138.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    April 12, 2022 at 4:03 pm

    @Sure Lurkalot:Or maybe it is a loan in essence and the repayment terms are future favorable treatment if dog forbid the horrid family gets back in power.

    Orange Mango likely won’t, but $2B in campaign donations would sure buy a lot of influcance for Ivanka  and that human hagfish that is Jared (I don’t even think BoJo can cover himself with slime and then tie himself in knots like Jared can)

  139. 139.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 4:04 pm

    @germy: Who are you talking about? Pundits? They are worthless and always have been. They may madden some people but moderate Democratics are too well grounded to pay them any mind.

    Ninety five per cent of these moderate “Centrist” versus liberal “Progressive” wars are being fought not by elected Democrats but by advocates for either side, plus a contingent of amoral polemicists who just want to stir up trouble.

  140. 140.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 4:05 pm

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    Just look at any time when Dems are somewhat unified on messaging whether it was Voting Rights, BBB, The Insurrection, etc., the immediate response from our side is always “but what about ___?  So you don’t care about that?”

    Yup. Also the anything-less-than-everything-is-nothing ethos that is pretty widespread these days, from Ukraine to Garland to student loans to health care to….

  141. 141.

    Martin

    April 12, 2022 at 4:13 pm

    Remember, Mnuchin and Jared were both in Saudi Arabia in the closing weeks of the Trump admin. They were clearly there with their hand out, and we have to wonder what these individuals, with top security clearances, offered MBS in exchange for their billions.

    Robert Hanssen got 15 life sentences and a room at ADX Florence for receiving $1.4M in exchange for US secrets.

  142. 142.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 4:16 pm

    Here’s ol Hopey Changey, using GOP tactics again:

    President Obama’s campaign is out with a tough new ad, “Steel,” attacking former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney’s record on job creation.
    The two-minute ad focuses on GS Technologies, a steel mill in Kansas City, Mo., that was bought by Romney’s private equity firm Bain Capital and went bankrupt soon after.
    The ad paints Romney as out of touch with the needs of the local workers and concerned only with Bain’s own profits.
    “We view Mitt Romney as a job destroyer,” says one former mill worker in the ad. Another calls Bain “a vampire. They came in and sucked the life out of us.”

    I think it worked.

  143. 143.

    E.

    April 12, 2022 at 4:19 pm

    The Trump family’s actions are basically a Gish gallop of criminality, and as anyone who has had to defend against that strategy in a debate knows, it’s almost an impossible position. But you can revert to offense. Pick a lie, one of the bigger ones, work it into your own narrative, and spend the rest of the debate driving it home as a stand-in for all the other issues. I don’t know if this is the issue to do it with but I think it’s a pretty good contender. Two weeks of  dems refusing to talk about much else would do a lot of damage. Isn’t that all Kay is suggesting? I’m not getting all the hating on her suggestion.

  144. 144.

    Fair Economist

    April 12, 2022 at 4:19 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Also, paying attention to the recommendations of an obscure Scotsman writing in 1776 about economics. Prosperity flows from the bottom to the top, not the other way around.

    Just sticking up for Adam Smith here: he was FAR more reasonable than current Republicans, who grossly misconstrue his recommendations. Amongst other things, he was anti-corruption and anti-monopoly.

  145. 145.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 4:22 pm

    @Martin:

    I love the idea that Trump and his relatives are zealously guarding national security information.

    Please. He sits at that country club running his mouth. The bridesmaids know our “national security secrets”.

  146. 146.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 4:23 pm

    @E.:

    I’m not getting all the hating on her suggestion.

    We’re apparently a group of reactionary centrists.

    Also, too, it’s Betty Cracker’s suggestion in the OP, and FWIW, I don’t hate anything. I just don’t think any midterm voters will care about Jared Kushner over a year after he left his governmental “employment.”  (I can’t speak for others).

  147. 147.

    Mike S (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!)

    April 12, 2022 at 4:24 pm

    @The Moar You Know: Well nver convince the magats, but we need enough noise and finger-pointing at rethuglican corruption for it to stick in the minds of a few percent of the normies who don’t obsess over politics. And we can do some of that if we all pull together on social media etc. We need to work the MSM refs on twitter like the GQP does. Join Momsense and WaterGirl on the action zoom meetings this week.

  148. 148.

    UncleEbeneezer

    April 12, 2022 at 4:24 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Their side eagerly embraces “Better A Russian than a Democrat” tee shirts.  Our side rejects and endlessly complains about “Vote Blue, No Matter Who.”  You cannot overstate the differences between the two parties and the attitudes of their supporters.

  149. 149.

    E.

    April 12, 2022 at 4:27 pm

    @Baud: Sure okay, and I agree you are right about Kushner not being on the ballot and so this discounts his value as a target, but the target is not Kushner. The target is the kind of sleazy, corrupt, and potentially very dangerous to national security actions that happen when you elect demagogues. I don’t think it would hard to tar Trump with Kushner. I get frustrated when I see how obvious it is our opponents have read Gramsci so much more carefully than we have.

  150. 150.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 4:27 pm

    @E.:

    They have a good offense. On corruption. On crime rates. On abortion. The crime rates thing is just sitting there. Pick it up.

  151. 151.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 4:28 pm

    @Baud:

    What Republicans are doing is branding the Democratic Party. It’s not designed for a cycle.

  152. 152.

    Betty Cracker

    April 12, 2022 at 4:30 pm

    @E.: I don’t know if this is THE issue either, but a couple of things recommend it, including the tie to current gas prices and the outrageousness of a former White House official/nepotism hire not only cashing in on his government gig but colluding with an awful, repressive regime to undermine the present administration to this day. I mean, it’s a current issue. The news of Kushner’s payout is topical, as is the Saudis’ stiff-arming Biden. This isn’t backward looking, IMO.

  153. 153.

    Brachiator

    April 12, 2022 at 4:30 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Obama also talked a lot about how he didn’t believe in red states and blue states, and how there were good folks on the other side, the kind of standard political rhetoric that polls, and election results, show that Dems and Dem-leaning voters like to hear, and that drives a lot of the on-line left, including people here at stodgy and pragmatic (though less of both than it used to be) Balloon Juice, crazy.

    And of course Obama had to use this type of rhetoric, or believed that he had to use it, in order to counter the absurd racist idea that Obama was a scary Black Revolutionary who hated Republicans, and hence also hated America.

    This makes it all the more ironic that standard GOP rhetoric is that Democrats are scary leftist revolutionaries who hate America, and also hate the sweet patriotic god-fearing Republicans who are America’s only hope.

  154. 154.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 4:31 pm

    @Kay: And we are branding the GOP.  Which is why the nation is stuck at 50/50.  Seems to me the best way to continue branding the GOP is through the 1/6 commission.  I mean, I don’t mind and will support any Dem that wants to slam Kushner, but I have difficulty seeing it as anything but a footnote in the narrative.

  155. 155.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 4:34 pm

    @Baud: I’m all for trying, what I object to is the “Democrats don’t ever try!” narrative, which (among other things) memory-holes two impeachments, to say nothing of the Clinton campaign. If partisan Democrats are so committed to the idea that Democrats don’t try, how do we keep pointing out to Normies what they’ve actually done

    I think it’s understandable. The title of this post “There oughta be a law”. There oughta be consequences. There oughta be outrage! I agree, there oughta be all of those things. But as the ineffectual reactionary centrist Nancy Pelosi often says, using what she says is a quote from Lincoln but that I haven’t been able to find, something like “With public opinion, anything is possible. Without it, nothing is possible.” Like I said way way up thread: I can’t conceive that it even takes any effort to make Jared Kushner a villain, and a laughingstock at the same time. He asked teh Russian fucking embassy to ensure secret communications with their administration, for fuck’s sake. I don’t know why it doesn’t sink in, but I don’t blame Democrats for it.

    In the year of our Pasta Monster 2022, people are still willing to say, out loud, in front of other people, knowing their words are being recorded by journalists, that they voted for trump because they saw him be a good businessman on the apprentice. (yes, the NYT did yet another Cletus safari)

  156. 156.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 4:37 pm

    @Brachiator:

    And of course Obama had to use this type of rhetoric, or believed that he had to use it, in order to counter the absurd racist idea that Obama was a scary Black Revolutionary who hated Republicans, and hence also hated America.

    Scranton Joe used it, too. All through his successful primary and general campaigns, and just the other day.

  157. 157.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    April 12, 2022 at 4:37 pm

    I don’t have a dog in this fight between different viewpoints on this issue.

    But one thing which strikes me that this conversation brings into sharp relief is that a major structural difference between the Right and Left in American politics is that our side seems to be constitutionally incapable of echoing something that somebody else has said without any qualifications.

    One thing you will never, ever read on a progressive forum is

    ” I agree absolutely, 100% ”

    with no tangents, no complications, no distractions. No side issues, nothing to muddy the message. No attempts at improving on the message or tweaking it to make it better or to tailor it to a different audience, none of that. Just 100% pure unadulterated repetition.

    This is why every attempt at progressive messaging turns into an exercise in political Renga poetry.

    Which is fun & all. It is intellectually challenging & engaging. But it does not always work so well at shooting dead the Wolf that is at our door hungering for another bite of human flesh.

  158. 158.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 4:39 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Agreed.

  159. 159.

    Soprano2

    April 12, 2022 at 4:39 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Nope, none. It’s just on to the next thing to criticize him for. “We got out of Afghanistan, but it wasn’t absolutely perfect, so it was wrong” is the kind of thing you hear from those people.

    I continue to believe Democrat’s basic problem is that we don’t have a media system like Republicans do to push our message out. Fox News and right wing talk radio do a lot to push their message into people’s consciousness. Even apolitical people I know have heard the things they say.

  160. 160.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    April 12, 2022 at 4:40 pm

    @tam1MI: I agree that prosecute them via Congressional investigation IS the answer. Its what the GOP would do. Loudly, in front of ALL the media, they should be investigating just what Jared did for that big pay out.

  161. 161.

    Soprano2

    April 12, 2022 at 4:41 pm

    @zhena gogolia: I knew it would mostly drop out of the news once the showy evacuation was over. I do hear periodic stories on NPR, but that’s about the only place I hear about it.

  162. 162.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 4:41 pm

    @Kay: That ad would make a good template for ads against Gibbons in Ohio, or Timken if she somehow got the nomination for Senate. Gibbons even looks like a fat cat.

  163. 163.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 4:44 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    (yes, the NYT did yet another Cletus safari)

    Haven’t they ever interviewed Biden voters?  I vaguely recall they did so once.

  164. 164.

    Soprano2

    April 12, 2022 at 4:44 pm

    @debbie: We just had a huge bust here of a catalytic converter theft ring. It was a huge news story. Strangely enough, the people who live in my mid-sized Midwest city seem to believe it’s a crime-ridden hellhole (translation: there are more of “those people” here than there were 10 years ago, and too many homeless people wandering around), but those aren’t the kind of things they talk about. It’s all about people’s houses and cars being broken into, and cars being stolen and stuff like that. When the local paper ran a news story about how crime dropped 7% since last year, the almost uniform response was “it’s because no one reports crime anymore because no one does anything about it”. This is a conservative, Republican dominated city with a city manager, so they don’t blame Republicans; instead, they blame “liberals” and too many people from other places coming here. It’s never about local people, just like they think all the homeless people come from somewhere else in spite of evidence that most of them are homegrown. Nothing bad is caused by people who are from here, it’s all the fault of those liberals coming here from other places! *rolleyes* It’s nuts.

  165. 165.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 4:45 pm

    @Baud:

    Haven’t they ever interviewed Biden voters?  I vaguely recall they did so once.

    I don’t remember that piece, but I’d bet twenty bucks it was with “Disappointed” Biden voters

  166. 166.

    zhena gogolia

    April 12, 2022 at 4:50 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Well said. I agree 100%!

  167. 167.

    Betty Cracker

    April 12, 2022 at 4:52 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: For the record, the title of this post refers to my sincere belief that an act of public corruption such as that perpetrated by Kushner should be illegal. That’s it.

  168. 168.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 4:56 pm

    @Betty Cracker: I agree! I wasn’t being snarky. I am constantly baffled that people aren’t up in arms about trump’s massive, blatant corruption, about white collar crime in general

    Every once in a while when I read about Rick Scott, a voice in the back of my head says, “This mother fucker won three statewide elections in Florida after running the biggest Medicare fraud in history”. I don’t get it. I don’t get people.

  169. 169.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 4:57 pm

    @Geminid:

    I watched one of the debates and Gibbons has all the fat cat job creator boasting, but I don’t think he’s comfortable as a candidate. It was like he was dropped at a debate when he thought he was going to the golf course- more watching the debate than IN it, you know? I was surprised. I don’t think he wants to be a senator. Hasn’t given it much thought but probably not :)

    I don’t know why they just don’t stay in the private sector. Everyone kisses their ass, they make a ton of money and they don’t have to subject themselves to Josh Mandel. Do they not LIKE the private sector?

  170. 170.

    Wetzel

    April 12, 2022 at 4:58 pm

    People think how do we break through. Social media not only places the subject in an epistemic trap, it is a Skinner Box conditioning, under the eye of the kushners kashogies their contractors are constantly at work. The Hunter Biden brouhaha this past month was the lead up. See? What about Hunter Biden?

  171. 171.

    Brachiator

    April 12, 2022 at 4:59 pm

    @germy:

    I see Gilbert Gottfried has bitten the big one.

    Quirky comedian. RIP.

  172. 172.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 4:59 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

     I don’t get it. I don’t get people.

     

    I think I’ll steal that for the next Baud! 20XX! slogan.

  173. 173.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 5:01 pm

    @Geminid:

    And the SENATE. It’s not even an action, executive position job. It’s the most “government” job ever. Rule bound, archaic, bizarre and clubbish, slow as fucking molasses.

  174. 174.

    Matt McIrvin

    April 12, 2022 at 5:01 pm

    @germy: Oh, man.

    Gilbert Gottfried was one of those guys who seems to the unsuspecting observer like a guy with one stupid joke, but who impresses other comedians with the weird boundary-pushing stuff he’s doing under the irritating character voice. You notice they’ve all got a story about him.

  175. 175.

    trollhattan

    April 12, 2022 at 5:02 pm

    Hunter Biden laptop

    Joseph Haydn wig drop

    Johnny Lydon tour stop

    Jared Kushner name drop?

    Hunter Biden laptop!

  176. 176.

    trollhattan

    April 12, 2022 at 5:05 pm

    @germy:

    Really? Damn! Gilbert Gottfried is on-topic, due to his being the real true voice of Kushner.

  177. 177.

    O. Felix Culpa

    April 12, 2022 at 5:07 pm

    @Kay:

    But that was before we designated all politicking as exclusively the province of the Republican Party and beneath us.
    Don’t try anything. Nothing matters.

    Who is this “we” you are speaking of? I get messages non-stop from my Democratic representatives–local, state, and federal– not to mention from the White House and other national Democratic outlets. Biden’s folks are doing a massive amount of messaging on every available platform. As satby and others have pointed out, the biggest roadblock remain our failed press, who blithely ignore Dem messaging to support their predetermined narratives.

    Shorter: It is rank bullshit to suggest the Dems aren’t trying.

  178. 178.

    Old School

    April 12, 2022 at 5:08 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Gilbert Gottfried was one of those guys who seems to the unsuspecting observer like a guy with one stupid joke, but who impresses other comedians with the weird boundary-pushing stuff he’s doing under the irritating character voice. You notice they’ve all got a story about him.

    Agreed.  I saw him perform once and he bombed.  Completely bombed.  Then he started this weird stream of consciousness rambling of non-sequiturs and while I can’t say he won the crowd over, there were a dozen or so of us doubled over in laughter.

    The second half of that show may be the hardest I’ve ever laughed in my life.  It was made even funnier by the confused looks by the people around me.

    RIP, Gilbert.

  179. 179.

    JML

    April 12, 2022 at 5:11 pm

    I’d 100% make Jared & Ivanka the face of the GOP. Especially Jared, whom no one likes: he comes off as a weaselly little failson, the kind of scummy literally bastard that everyone who has ever worked in a big organization (usually corporate) has met and hates, because they’re either the boss’ kid, or got their job some other way besides merit. He’s super easy to demonize, and has the added benefit of actually being a demon to deserve it.

    He’s used his position and connections to enrich himself and his family beyond any even semi-reasonable means, fucked up any number of important projects for the government, and is basically a soulless twat. He’s fair game: go out and crush him as being the reason we have inflation, that manufacturing jobs are leaving, and that your dog bit you yesterday. Fuck it, let’s roll out the Blame Jared 2022 campaign and see how shitstain likes it.

  180. 180.

    O. Felix Culpa

    April 12, 2022 at 5:20 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    I’m so old, I remember when the press complained they didn’t know what Hillary’s platform was, even though her campaign published gazillion position papers and provided handy little summaries on her website. This was the same press after all that covered an empty podium for nearly an hour waiting for Trump, while Hillary was giving a significant speech at the very same time. Please, tell me more about how it’s all the Dems fault.

  181. 181.

    lollipopguild

    April 12, 2022 at 5:22 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa: It is ALWAYS someone else’s fault. I had in-laws who always blamed somebody else when they screwed up.

  182. 182.

    O. Felix Culpa

    April 12, 2022 at 5:25 pm

    @lollipopguild: I’m not sure I’m following. Can you expand a little?

  183. 183.

    NotMax

    April 12, 2022 at 5:27 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa

    giving a significant speech

    “Unpossible. She’s a she.”
    – The MSM
    //

  184. 184.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 5:27 pm

    @Baud:

    ChinaChinaChinaChinaChina.

  185. 185.

    O. Felix Culpa

    April 12, 2022 at 5:29 pm

    @NotMax:

    Yes, her lack of essential body parts was definitely a factor.

  186. 186.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 5:29 pm

    @Kay:

    Check out DeWine’s ad if you get a chance. It’s a hoot. We’re led by a pint-sized superhero!

  187. 187.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 5:29 pm

    Whatever the elected Democrats are doing, they are doing it wrong

    —–cosigned the Republicans, the leftier-than-thou supposed allies and the MSM.

  188. 188.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 5:30 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Although these messaging issues get thrashed out just about every day here, for some reason they never seem to get resolved. I don’t have much more to contribute on the general topic, so I’ll throw in something from Rachel Bitecofer:

    Our party still uses polls to find out what voters say they care about and then tells candidates to run on that.

    Republicans force voters to get fired up about wedge issues that help them, and hurt us.

    See the assymetry there?

    *  *  *

    If you ever wondered why voters like D policy positions but don’t like D’s this is why. It’s a cardinal sin.

    Bitecofer made a minor reputation as a political scientist, but has now become a political engineer. She and two other women have set up an ad shop under the name StrikePac.

    I don’t know if any candidates have hired Bitecofer and her colleagues yet, but she does say what kind of candidate she hopes to work for:

     We want candidates who are like, “you’re damn right I’m a Democrat and this is why.”

    *  *  *

    What do I like in candidates?

    Candidates who are aggressive brand ambassadors. Candidates who don’t just want to run, they insist on winning. Left or center, what matters most is moxie & capability of going hard against Republicans.

  189. 189.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 5:30 pm

    @debbie:

    I don’t know if it’ll work, but I think that’s something voters are more likely to care about.

  190. 190.

    David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch

    April 12, 2022 at 5:31 pm

    OMG! Gilbert is dead!

    Variety @Variety
    ·
    1h
    Gilbert Gottfried, the comedian and “Aladdin” voice actor with an iconic voice, has died after battling a long illness, his family announced Tuesday. He was 67.

    I knew there was something wrong with him, he was on Stephen Colbert a few months ago and he was great, but he had trouble walking – Stephen had to take his had to help him across the stage.

    He had the best podcast, but in recent shows his usual hyper energy was absent.

    and he had two little beautiful children – damn.

    RIP – His greatest commercial (video)

  191. 191.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 5:34 pm

    @Baud:

    Not a footnote; an example of the GOP’s venality.

  192. 192.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 5:36 pm

    @debbie: I just don’t see it.  But maybe someone will try it and prove me wrong.

  193. 193.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 5:36 pm

    @Soprano2:

    Agreed. It’s the same here.

  194. 194.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 5:36 pm

    @Geminid: Bitcofer is a grifting hack. She is popular because she says what do-somethingers want to hear. And drops f bombs. Its not just the right that loves performance artists.

  195. 195.

    Ruckus

    April 12, 2022 at 5:37 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Go look at his Wiki page. He’s done a ton of work, not all of it the kind of comedy he’s known for. He didn’t do big roles but the amount and variety of work he did is pretty impressive.

  196. 196.

    O. Felix Culpa

    April 12, 2022 at 5:38 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: I’ve heard differing opinions about her. On what do you base your assessment? (real question)

  197. 197.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 5:39 pm

    @Baud:

    Agreed, but it’s not the only issue he should be pushing. I was listening more than watching when the ad first played, and for a moment, he sounded like TFG.

  198. 198.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 5:40 pm

    @debbie: That’s probably good for Ohio, no?

    It’s interesting that you think he should broaden his message, since I think usually people want candidates to focus more.

  199. 199.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 12, 2022 at 5:40 pm

    @JML:

    I’d 100% make Jared & Ivanka the face of the GOP.

    I’d love to, but with him not currently holding an office, I don’t think it’s possible.  Money corruption doesn’t seem to be a big deal with much of the electorate, so it’s hard to shove him front and center.  If he became the face of the GOP, though?  He’s so dumb and smug and looks like a loser.  He doesn’t have the type of assholery that the GOP base loves.  He’s an obnoxious incompetent dipshit to everyone else.  Tarring the GOP with him would be great, if I thought it could be done.​

  200. 200.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 5:41 pm

    @David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch:

    He talked about his heart condition many years ago on the Howard Stern Show.

  201. 201.

    Matt

    April 12, 2022 at 5:41 pm

    I’d think about calling on Congress to pass legislation to that effect

    Great, I’m sure Jared’s gotten bored with violating all the _existing_ laws and needs some novelty.

    What’s the point of passing laws if we aren’t going to enforce them?

  202. 202.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 5:42 pm

    @debbie: I didn’t see the China ad, but I thought this might be effective.

    Tim Ryan @TimRyan Apr 9

    My grandfather was a steelworker for 40 years. He made a good living and had time for things he loved: gardening, volunteering at his church, and spending time with us. Too many workers today don’t have that. We need to rebuild the middle class & give folks some breathing room.

    When Conor Lamb won his first special election, twitter and MSNBC were all “Oooh, he hates Nancy Pelosi”, and they covered his victory speech live hoping for Dem on Dem violence. He talked instead about how he was a Democrat because his grandpa told him how FDR was for working people

  203. 203.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 5:43 pm

    @Baud:

    A candidate can and should focus on more than one issue. Looking at the GOP races, their sole focus is mimicking you know who. Gibbons ends one ad leaning over a boardroom table, looking in the camera, and saying “Let’s fire them!” Seem familiar???

  204. 204.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 5:45 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    You could do something more general, like making them the face of the GOP, along with other sterling examples.

  205. 205.

    Ruckus

    April 12, 2022 at 5:46 pm

    @trollhattan:

    Damn that was good.

    Jarad is like wearing white sweat socks with a tux and the pant legs are 3 inches short. Or someone walking into a concert at Carnegie Hall with a blaring boom box on their shoulder. Or a case of crabs.(not the food kind)

  206. 206.

    Wetzel

    April 12, 2022 at 5:46 pm

    @trollhattan:

    Blew out my flip-flop

    Stepped on a pop-top

    Hunter Biden’s lap-top

  207. 207.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 5:46 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: For various reasons lot of people feel a need to cut Rachel Bitecofer down to size. You may have a prejudice against Bitecofer because of something she wrote about Bernie Sanders three years ago.

    But if others are wondering about her, Bitecofer has a good, representative article in the February 2020 issue of The New Republic about the upcoming election, titled “Hate is on the Ballot.” She gives a good explication of the concept of “Negative Partisanship.” Bitecofer did not invent the concept but it informs her work.

  208. 208.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 5:47 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    It is effective. But I also remember Ryan’s Pelosi-bashing phase.

  209. 209.

    Baud

    April 12, 2022 at 5:47 pm

    @debbie:

    I don’t have a clue what the most effective approach is.  As long as Tim Ryan does not become a fascist, he’s good with me.

  210. 210.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 5:48 pm

    @debbie:

    But I also remember Ryan’s Pelosi-bashing phase.

    Me too. To his credit, I think he very publicly ate crow after that.

  211. 211.

    Kay

    April 12, 2022 at 5:53 pm

    @debbie:

    He has a really clear, cohesive theme – it’s quality of life. So not just a job, but a family and friends and enough to have a life outside of work. I think it will be effective.

    He aso has another advantage that you can’t fake or create. He likes people and likes talking to them. He’s an extrovert- he picks up energy from other people. You either are or aren’t.

  212. 212.

    David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch

    April 12, 2022 at 5:57 pm

    @debbie: ​
      Oh – so he had myotonic dystrophy type II which triggers recurring heart arrhythmia.

    This explains so much; his frailty

  213. 213.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 6:02 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ryan, Moulton, Rice and their colleagues all ended up voting for Pelosi in the caucus election and then in the Speaker election* that began the new Congress in January 2019. Pelosi got over their attempted mutiny, and so can other Democrats.

    *Anyone who needs cheering up should  look up Hakeem Jeffries’ nomination speech on YouTube. It’s outstanding. By the end, Jeffries has Pelosi grinning.

  214. 214.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 6:21 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa: Her own words. Check out her Twitter timeline, it is full of grandiose promises. In short, she will tell you how to win if you pay her.

    @Geminid: I had no idea that she wrote about the Vt senator.

  215. 215.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 6:25 pm

    @Kay: Hopey-Changey, wow I am speechless.

  216. 216.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 6:27 pm

    @Geminid: Oh I’m over it, but I never forget

  217. 217.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 6:28 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: I recall you mentioning it but that was in a thread long ago

    I think Democratic candidates are capable of deciding if Ms. Bitecofer can deliver value. She is hustling, but then she is an upstart among established campaign consultants who I think demand a lot more money than she does. You would want to make a living if you were in her shoes

    But that was a good steer you gave the commenter. Bitecofer has a lively and informative twitter feed (complete with stories of her dog Hammie and her beloved Oregon Ducks football team. It wouldn’t take long for the commenter to make up her mind about Bitecofer. The New Republic article I mention at #207 is a ten minute read and is also a good introduction.

  218. 218.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 6:28 pm

    @Kay:

    I know Ryan’s much more than a political cartoon. They’re only running that one ad around here, and I would have expected more than that by now. I wonder if the campaign’s saving them for the election since he has so little primary competition now.

  219. 219.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 6:33 pm

    @Geminid: You are confusing me with someone else.

  220. 220.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 12, 2022 at 6:37 pm

    @debbie: I can never remember what amounts are noteworthy, and I know it varies from state to state according to size and cost of media markets, but…

    The Hill @thehill 8
    Tim Ryan raises $4.1 million for Senate race in first quarter

    here’s some context I found looking for that number

    arrel Rowland @darreldrowland 9h
    Ohio Dem Tim Ryan’s Senate campaign says it raised $4.1 million in the first quarter of 2022 – most ever for a U.S. Senate candidate in Ohio at this point in the cycle, per campaign

  221. 221.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 6:40 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Maybe, but I think not.

  222. 222.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 6:43 pm

    @Geminid: Show me then, because  I don’t remember.

    Griftocofer wants Ds to copy the R playbook and counter fear with fear.  A tweet from yesterday.

    Please note: when I talk about counter offense, this is what I mean. Shift the debate to our terms, then hammer the shit out of them. You don’t think suburban moms will find shit like this terrifying?! We gotta go fear vs fear to survive the midterm effect.

  223. 223.

    debbie

    April 12, 2022 at 6:44 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    That’s great news, but I can’t believe GOP candidates aren’t raking in more than that.

  224. 224.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 6:51 pm

    @debbie: The Republican candidates might be raking in- or lending their campaigns- more, but right now they are spending the money to tear each other down. They are doing Tim Ryan’s negative advertising for free.

  225. 225.

    Geminid

    April 12, 2022 at 6:53 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Sounds like a good tactic to me.

  226. 226.

    schrodingers_cat

    April 12, 2022 at 6:56 pm

    @Geminid: Not to me. If I loved fearmongering I would be a Republican not a Democrat. She is assuming that what works R voters will work for the Ds. I need to see proof other than her bravado that it will.

  227. 227.

    Another Scott

    April 12, 2022 at 6:57 pm

    @Baud: Good points.

    It can be done, though.  E.g.

     

    Kushner is sucking up the blood money the Saudis are draining out of us at the gas tanks in exchange for helping the Kingdom get away with sawing up a Washington Post journalist and devastating Yemen.https://t.co/Q8ZkgpZYj4

    — LOLGOP (@LOLGOP) April 12, 2022

    A little complex, but it shows how everything really is connected.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  228. 228.

    J R in WV

    April 12, 2022 at 7:02 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: ​
     

    [ After 9-11 ] Conservatives got to openly and without code words call Islam evil and Muslims terrorists with minimal pushback.

    I worked with quite a few Muslims from all over the world when I still worked in IT. They were without exception religious, calm, peaceful, hard-working and admirable.

    I also worked with some Christian holy-rollers who were lazy, shiftless, full of hate, agitated and despicable. Look at who comes out on top of those two groups…!!!

  229. 229.

    Mike in Pasadena

    April 12, 2022 at 7:31 pm

    @MisterDancer: If the focus of criticisms is kept on Jared taking money instead of the Saudis giving him money, would your concerns still be relevant? Not sure here, but I understand your point.

  230. 230.

    BruceFromOhio

    April 12, 2022 at 8:18 pm

    But the final decision was Mohammed bin Salman’s, and he approved the deal faster than a Saudi hit squad could kill and dismember a journalist.

    That this has relevance in modern discourse is … fuck, I can’t even.

  231. 231.

    sab

    April 12, 2022 at 10:46 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: He very publicly and repeatedly ate crow on every network that had him on. Basically said that he was wrong and that he was in awe of her effectiveness as Speaker.

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