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You are here: Home / Immigration / The ‘Caravan’ Dilemma

The ‘Caravan’ Dilemma

by Betty Cracker|  April 15, 202212:02 pm| 122 Comments

This post is in: Immigration, Open Threads, Politics

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Here’s an excerpt from a WaPo article on growing worries within the Democratic caucus that Republicans will successfully use anti-immigration demagoguery to pick off vulnerable congresspeople in November:

President Biden is facing a growing mutiny from Democratic candidates — including five vulnerable senators — who are questioning his administration’s decision to lift a pandemic health order that has drastically curtailed migrants’ ability to seek asylum at the southern border.

The internal dissension is an early acknowledgment from many Democrats that worries about border security and immigration could become a major obstacle for them in this year’s midterm elections. Polls show the topic to be a leading concern for voters, and one on which Biden has received low marks. Now, candidates are openly warning that the Biden administration’s decision to stop using the public health order, known as Title 42, could lead to chaotic conditions at the border and refocus public attention on an issue that has challenged president after president…

Leon Fresco, an immigration attorney and former aide to Senate Majority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.), said Democrats are in desperate need of a “reframing” of the border issue. “Because this debate, the way it’s currently structured, is very bad for Democrats,” he said. “Either we have Title 42 and no chaos, or Title 42 and chaos. That’s just not a good look for anybody right now.”

There’s much more at the source, including nuanced quotes from Democrats who support and oppose lifting the order and Republicans who are salivating at the prospect of running on the issue. This is one of those situations where it sucks to be the only party that actually gives a rat’s ass about governing the country because you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

I’m not sure how you “reframe” such an issue, as Mr. Fresco suggests above. Administration officials quoted in the article implicitly reject Fresco’s dilemma by saying it’s possible to lift the order without chaos ensuing. Even assuming that’s correct, Republicans will portray the border situation as chaotic no matter what — they’ve been doing so since noon on January 20, 2021, even as the Trump policies remained in place.

I have no idea what to do except uphold the law, including the rules around the right to claim asylum, which seems to be what the administration is doing. But as we’ve seen, the rule of law concept is extinct as far as Republicans are concerned, from the most obscure county sheriff to the super-majority members of the United States Supreme Court.

Open thread.

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Reader Interactions

122Comments

  1. 1.

    scav

    April 15, 2022 at 12:07 pm

    Oh yes, by all means, let the aim of all government actions and laws be the automatic frenzied chasing of the latest advisor’s theories about what will bring hypothesized voters to the polls.

  2. 2.

    Yarrow

    April 15, 2022 at 12:08 pm

    Wasn’t Vice President Harris taking on the immigration issue? Seems like this is a good way to kneecap her as well.

    The US can just do what the UK yesterday signed an agreement to do – send all the asylum-seekers to Rwanda. Can’t see any problems with that plan.

  3. 3.

    O. Felix Culpa

    April 15, 2022 at 12:12 pm

    The border issue has already been thoroughly weaponized by the GQP. They’ll inevitably cycle through their list of SCARY THINGS no matter what the Biden administration and Dems do. The GQP goal is to keep their audience fired up and voting. Therefore our biggest task will be keeping our voters motivated and able to vote. The latter of course made deliberately hard by the fascists.

  4. 4.

    lee

    April 15, 2022 at 12:13 pm

    Maybe frame it like ‘While rolling back the onerous and unconstitutional pandemic policies we have to end Title 42’  /s

     

    or somesuch.

  5. 5.

    cain

    April 15, 2022 at 12:14 pm

    You know pretty much GOP will make hay about anything – including even abortion. Much as I hate to say it, you’ll have to trust the American voter to figure things out.

    What I do know is that this country thrives on illegal immigration – our farms and orchards are filled with them. What the GOP wants is still allow illegal immigrants (which is why they don’t punish people who hire illegal immigrants) but be able to exploit these people and then if they get caught throw them away and get more.

    Unions should just start inviting these folks and unionize with them – that will fuck employers shit up and piss off the GOP.

  6. 6.

    206inKY

    April 15, 2022 at 12:20 pm

    Such insanity that opposition to immigration is a top worry instead of figuring out how to deal with an aging population that desperately needs tax dollars and labor from young people to pay for medicare and social security.

    I think it’s time to hammer on the economic benefits of immigration. Other countries are desperately trying to increase birth rates while the US is squandering the jackpot situation of high immigration demand from people who can contribute immediately instead of requiring 18-21 years of education.

  7. 7.

    Kent

    April 15, 2022 at 12:21 pm

    Have we learned nothing yet?

    Republicans are going to weaponize anything and everything regardless of what Democrats actually do.  Weaponizing actual bullshit is their stock in trade.  How much sound and fury has been expended weaponizing Critical Race Theory when it never actually was a thing?  Or mask mandates?  Or Trans kids going to the bathroom.  Or ANTIFA/BLM.

    Democrats need to know how to create their own narratives and talking points.  They did that in 2018 with a laser focus on heath care.  Which worked.  I don’t have the answers.  But I do know there will be endless bullshit flying this fall no mater what the Biden Administration does.  So they should do all the good they can while they have the time.  And just push back furiously.  Call out their bullshit and refuse the framing.

  8. 8.

    Albatrossity

    April 15, 2022 at 12:23 pm

    Do the right thing. That’s always good advice.

    And understand that the GOP is always going to lie about whatever you do.

  9. 9.

    Sure Lurkalot

    April 15, 2022 at 12:23 pm

    Constantly being faced with the choice between decency and political expediency is freaking exhausting.

    Maybe in a few years the problem of the nonwhite hordes will go away because no one will want to come to this dystopian hellhole akin to the 1850’s.

  10. 10.

    Johnny Gentle (famous crooner)

    April 15, 2022 at 12:24 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa: Our voters are rarely motivated to vote once we win the presidency. Republicans spend all day every day hopped up on fear and grievance, fed to them in an endless stream. They view every election as an actual, existential life-or-death struggle. On the other hand, too many of our voters treat politics as though everything’s fine once we capture the White House. We’re just not as motivated, and I don’t buy that it’s all because of obstacles to voting.

  11. 11.

    O. Felix Culpa

    April 15, 2022 at 12:29 pm

    @Johnny Gentle (famous crooner): I wonder if that lackadaisical attitude has changed since TFG was installed. I’m seeing high levels of Dem engagement in my neck of the woods, coming up to this off-year election. No idea if that translates to high engagement across the country, though.

  12. 12.

    Kent

    April 15, 2022 at 12:30 pm

    @Johnny Gentle (famous crooner): I agree.

    And it isn’t just complacency.  It is also cynicism.   “Biden hasn’t done X like he promised so why should I care anymore?”

    I see it all the time in lefty types who should fucking know better.  “We don’t have free college education yet like Biden promised.  And so fuck all of them, I’m not voting anymore.”  That sort of thing.

  13. 13.

    ian

    April 15, 2022 at 12:32 pm

    One framing suggestion is to stop referring to the boarder as “chaos”.  This vague term doesn’t provide any insight as to what conditions are like on the border and plays directly into republican framing regarding ‘walls’ and ‘militarize the border’.

    https://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/2021-migration-us-mexico-border

    If that trend has held and the got-away numbers cited for 2021 are accurate, there were about 540,000 successful unlawful entries in FY 2021

    That is less than 1 for every 600 American citizens, and that is simply number of entries, which may or may not reflect total number of people doing it. (some people may cross multiple times)

  14. 14.

    MisterForkbeard

    April 15, 2022 at 12:35 pm

    @ian: Yeah, but if this happens for <checks notes> 600 years the entire country will be overrun! We have to stop it now!

  15. 15.

    O. Felix Culpa

    April 15, 2022 at 12:36 pm

    @Kent: Sigh. I am reminded of TBogg’s epic Happy Gumdrop Fairy-Tale Land rant.

  16. 16.

    ian

    April 15, 2022 at 12:38 pm

    @ian: boarder<— look at the spelling comprehension with this guy… Border.

  17. 17.

    Benw

    April 15, 2022 at 12:39 pm

    My peach and apple saplings that I put in last spring and which the deer eviscerated have made leaves and buds! They may have survived!!

  18. 18.

    bluegirlfromwyo

    April 15, 2022 at 12:39 pm

    @Johnny Gentle (famous crooner): Second. My normie Dem voting friends moved on to other topics as soon as Biden was inaugurated. I had to drag the VA ones kicking and screaming to vote in 2021. GOP acquaintances? Still frothing at the mouth.

  19. 19.

    laura

    April 15, 2022 at 12:39 pm

    Oh FFS! I’m fuzzy on the details, but wasn’t there a bipartisan immigration bill passed by the Senate and Payl Ryan sat his boney ass on it before it got to the House floor? Why not dust that off and call bullshit and reintroduce it? Is there anyone willing to just act like the Democrats own the moral high ground on freaking Good Friday and claim asylum AND immigration as acts of faith?

  20. 20.

    different-church-lady

    April 15, 2022 at 12:42 pm

    1) People in this country are racist.
    2) The GOP will try to leverage that at every opportunity.
    3) Democratic pandering to racists will not make those people vote for democrats.
    4) Engaging in pandering will lead to more entrenched racism without gaining any votes.

    And just like everyone else, I have no idea what can be done about it.

  21. 21.

    Sure Lurkalot

    April 15, 2022 at 12:42 pm

    @Benw:  The little saplings that could! Hope they reach their full potential!

  22. 22.

    different-church-lady

    April 15, 2022 at 12:43 pm

    @Kent: ​
     

    “We don’t have free college education yet like Biden promised.

    It’s the “Where’s mine?” of the left.

  23. 23.

    eclare

    April 15, 2022 at 12:44 pm

    @Benw:   Happy news!

  24. 24.

    debbie

    April 15, 2022 at 12:45 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa: 

    We should counter with a condemnation of GOP ineptitude, using Abbott’s Folly as just one example.

  25. 25.

    Sure Lurkalot

    April 15, 2022 at 12:47 pm

    @different-church-lady: All excellent points and you saved the best for last. Pandering to racists creates more racists as well as more moral panic about immigration. Just stop.

  26. 26.

    Baud

    April 15, 2022 at 12:50 pm

    @ian:

    One framing suggestion is to stop referring to the boarder as “chaos”.

     

    Next thing you’ll be saying we shouldn’t refer the the Afghanistan Pullout as Botched. Where does it end?

  27. 27.

    danielx

    April 15, 2022 at 12:51 pm

    Note: saw a guy walking his dog in my neighborhood yesterday wearing a LET’S GO DARWIN t-shirt. I have decided he is my new role model.

  28. 28.

    eclare

    April 15, 2022 at 12:57 pm

    @danielx:   Excellent message!

  29. 29.

    louc

    April 15, 2022 at 1:04 pm

    @206inKY: The GAO did a study 7-8 years ago that estimated undocumented workers contributed about $4 billion in revenue to social security. Jose Antonio Vargas made a big deal out of that when he was on the circuit for Dreamers. Speaking of Dreamers, why hasn’t that been taken up at least?

  30. 30.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 1:05 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    It’s the “Where’s mine?” of the left.

    My niece is 24 years old.  She has an $85,000 school loan she owes.

    It causes a lot of stress in her life.  I don’t see her as having a “where’s mine” attitude.  She was told her whole life by teachers that she’d never amount to anything without a college degree.  She saw classmates who skipped college and now they’re working as cashiers.

    There’s something wrong about a 24 year old being buried under that much debt.

  31. 31.

    lowtechcyclist

    April 15, 2022 at 1:08 pm

    What @Kent said.  The Rethugs will weaponize real stuff, trivial stuff, and imaginary stuff.

    Dems need to run on the things we want to talk about, not what the GQPers do.  Have a short and snappy version like Clinton’s “Medicare, Medicaid, education and the environment.”  Support Ukraine, voting rights, and reining in global warming; oppose dictatorships abroad and those who’d undermine democracy here at home.

    Point out the triviality of the things the Rethugs want the debate to be about, from CRT to Disney to M&Ms, say they want to fight these imaginary battles while serious problems that Dems want to fix go unaddressed.

    And in the real battles they want to fight, they’re bullies: they want to take the vote away from Blacks and Hispanics, they want to take the right to choose away from women, and they want to take the right to exist away from LBGTQ folks.  And we stand against that, period, end of fucking story.

  32. 32.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 15, 2022 at 1:08 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa: I think about that more and more in recent months

  33. 33.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 1:11 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:  Point out the triviality of the things the Rethugs want the debate to be about, from CRT to Disney to M&Ms

    And let’s not trivialize things that are important to potential young voters, like crippling student loan debt.

  34. 34.

    artem1s

    April 15, 2022 at 1:14 pm

    Biden has already demonstrated he’s not willing to kick the can down the road just because it might be politically expedient or the easy thing to do. Many D-Reps and Senators lost their seats because they decided passing ACA was more important than beating off a challenge from some Teahaddists who was willing to lie about Obamacare to get elected.
    IMO I thought ending Afghanistan was going to hurt Joe more than it did. But a couple of news cycles later, it’s a non-issue (as far as the mid-terms go).
    Maybe it’s time for the Dems to stop acting like they are afraid of even talking about immigration reform issues. Once they start ignoring the hair-on-fire responses from the GOP and respond with intelligent discourse and invite in parties who are rarely heard from, it may help in states where they aren’t reaching Hispanic voters. It may not work for every one of this crop of candidates, but it will help with future candidates if they start talking about it now rather than kicking the can down the road again.
    BTW, LGBTQ rights was a third rail issue that no candidate could safely talk about in public until just recently. It takes a long time to get the conversation going and to create a safe space where candidates can talk about these GOP hot button, dollar generating issues. They won’t go away just because you ignore them, but it will get easier if, any only if, the subject gets normalized and de-weaponized.

  35. 35.

    Baud

    April 15, 2022 at 1:14 pm

    @germy:

    The question is whether her vote is conditional or not.  If we’re really serious about what we say about the threat of fascism, we don’t have the discretion to give anyone a moral pass to not vote.

  36. 36.

    different-church-lady

    April 15, 2022 at 1:15 pm

    @germy:  My comment is definitely not about your niece, and I do not mean to belittle the problem of what basically amounts to a kind of social extortion. I’m saying that there’s a very simple-minded idea on the left that Biden has a magic wand that he refuses to waive, and they’re pissed off because it’s the thing that impacts them the most. He doesn’t have a magic wand for racism or healthcare either. But some on the left act like erasing college debt fixes everything. It doesn’t — it doesn’t even fix how utterly warped the cost of higher education has become. And it sure as hell doesn’t fix the threat of fascism.​

  37. 37.

    Another Scott

    April 15, 2022 at 1:16 pm

    @Albatrossity:  +1

    We need to do what’s right while we have the power to do so. Pointing to accomplishments and how it helps actual people while also laying a foundation for a better future is how we win.

    We can’t think, no matter what the political “experts” say, that there’s some magic sauce for Democrats, some powerful incantation (“Say this!” “Don’t say that!”) that will counteract the 24/7/365 rage machine on the right. There isn’t. Every election and every race is different. We have to do the work to reach our voters where they are and make it possible for them to turn out.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  38. 38.

    Baud

    April 15, 2022 at 1:20 pm

    @danielx:

    Note: saw a guy walking his dog in my neighborhood yesterday wearing a LET’S GO DARWIN t-shirt.

     

    Would have been funnier if the dog were wearing the shirt.

  39. 39.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 1:23 pm

    [Biden] has repeatedly called on Congress to cancel $10,000 of student loans and says he doesn’t believe that he has the authority to cancel student loans unilaterally for all student loan borrowers. That said, Biden said he will sign any bill on student loan forgiveness that Congress passes.

    It’s a start.  And more than any Republican would do

  40. 40.

    sdhays

    April 15, 2022 at 1:25 pm

    As so many others have said, the GQP will scream about THE BORDER!!1! regardless of what Biden does or what is actually happening at the border, so who the fuck cares? Also, there is a fuckton of shit happening this year: Ukraine, Roe v. Wade, more and more details on the failed insurrection last year, etc. Oh, and COVID is still with us.

    I’m sure that the GQP will do whatever it can to make THE BORDER!!1! the main issue in November, but, fuck, it’s unlikely to actually be the main topic people want to talk about.

  41. 41.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 1:26 pm

    @sdhays:

    JD Vance blames “illegals streaming over the border” for his mother’s pill and alcohol addiction.

  42. 42.

    Baud

    April 15, 2022 at 1:26 pm

    @germy:

    I bet his mother blames JD Vance.

  43. 43.

    PJ

    April 15, 2022 at 1:27 pm

    @germy: And the Left will never give Biden any credit for it.  Their student loans are all his fault.

  44. 44.

    Another Scott

    April 15, 2022 at 1:27 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: Yup.  And they’ve been this way for decades.

    It used to be Flag Burning and a Balanced Budget Amendment.  And Unisex Bathrooms.  And on and on.

    None of this stuff is new.  We successfully fought it in the past, we can do so again.  But we need to do it without amplifying it.

    “I’m sorry that the GOP has become a fascist cult, but I’m not here to talk about the latest crazy hairball that they’ve coughed up.  Politics is how we address problems that affect all of us – the economy, community health and safety, transportation, education, self-government, and  more.  It’s important.  It’s serious, and it affects all of us.  Here’s what I will work on if I am favored with your vote…”

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  45. 45.

    O. Felix Culpa

    April 15, 2022 at 1:29 pm

    @germy: My elder son was repeatedly screwed by GQP economics. He graduated in 2007, landed a professional starter job, and guess what happened in 2008. He worked 4 part-time jobs for a couple years (no benefits or days off, of course) and then went to law school to reboot. His debt is through the roof, but he knows where the fault lies and he understands the consequences of not voting, so he ALWAYS votes, Dem of course. He was brought up right. ;)

  46. 46.

    taumaturgo

    April 15, 2022 at 1:30 pm

    “I’m not sure how you “reframe” such an issue, as Mr. Fresco suggests above.”

    Is a simple code language to tack further to the right to appease the fearful conservative democrats. That should work wonders for Biden’s tanking poll numbers and the deteriorated Democrat’s brand.

  47. 47.

    sdhays

    April 15, 2022 at 1:30 pm

    @germy: I expect he blames them for his hernia too.

  48. 48.

    Peale

    April 15, 2022 at 1:30 pm

    Politically, there is no upside here. The GOP has been successful at converting asylum seekers into “the undocumented, illegal aliens”, even though they are actually documented. Heck, even over documented. There’s very little upside here in the short or long term, since the current immigration system for the poor does not create much positive feedback for not being draconian when it comes to deportations.

  49. 49.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 1:30 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    My niece was also brought up right.  She always votes for the Democrat.  It’d be nice if she got some relief.

  50. 50.

    JMS

    April 15, 2022 at 1:32 pm

    We’ve lost about 250k people 18-65 to Covid and there is a worker shortage and population growth has slowed to a crawl. A society in its right mind would be encouraging immigration on the merits.

  51. 51.

    Kent

    April 15, 2022 at 1:32 pm

    @germy:

    My niece is 24 years old.  She has an $85,000 school loan she owes.

    It causes a lot of stress in her life.  I don’t see her as having a “where’s mine” attitude.  She was told her whole life by teachers that she’d never amount to anything without a college degree.  She saw classmates who skipped college and now they’re working as cashiers.

    There’s something wrong about a 24 year old being buried under that much debt.

    How do you generate $84,000 of debt for an undergraduate education?  That is about triple the Federal borrowing limits

    In any event, my original comment was about free college, not existing loan forgiveness.

  52. 52.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 1:34 pm

    @Kent:

    Undergrad and masters.

  53. 53.

    Peale

    April 15, 2022 at 1:39 pm

    @JMS: You’re not going to win that argument, however. Since as long as the undocumented exist, they can be used as a wedge issue to block any reform. There’s also a 15 year wait to obtain LPL status from India through the “normal” process. 12 years for Mexico. It would be actually very helpful to address that backlog. But that isn’t going to happen as long as the “undocumented” have to be dealt with in any reform.  There’s enough LEGAL immigration in the pipeline to take care of the worker shortage that isn’t ever going to be accessed.

  54. 54.

    O. Felix Culpa

    April 15, 2022 at 1:40 pm

    @germy: I’d like relief for my son and others of his cohort who will never catch up too. But defeating fascism comes first. He understands that.

  55. 55.

    burnspbesq

    April 15, 2022 at 1:40 pm

    @ian:

    There is chaos on the Texas-Mexico border right now. It was deliberately caused by the asshat Republican Governor of Texas. Coming soon to a supermarket near you: empty produce shelves, because it’s all rotting in trucks that are backed up for miles due to redundant and probably illegal state inspections.

    The worst part: even people who should know better won’t hold Abbott accountable.

  56. 56.

    Betty Cracker

    April 15, 2022 at 1:40 pm

    @taumaturgo: As always, you’re mad at the wrong people.

  57. 57.

    lowtechcyclist

    April 15, 2022 at 1:40 pm

    @germy: And let’s not trivialize things that are important to potential young voters, like crippling student loan debt.

    Agreed.  Add cost of housing to that as well.

  58. 58.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 15, 2022 at 1:43 pm

    Birtherism made trump a Republican celebrity, immigration made him a Republican candidate. It’s the issue that took down “Young Gun” (he was a couple of years older than my then very-middle-aged ass), and drove John Boehner into retirement. I don’t know if it was fatal to Jeb!, but it sure as shit helped take him down

  59. 59.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 1:43 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Rents are insane.  And houses are being bought up by companies who do some quick fixes and then turn them into rentals.

  60. 60.

    lowtechcyclist

    April 15, 2022 at 1:49 pm

    @Another Scott: Yeah, I remember all that crap too.  Their idea is to fight on favorable terrain, of course, but also make it terrain that doesn’t risk the least bit of the fortunes and incomes of the rich, even if they lose a battle.

    It’s worked for them very well for a very long time.

  61. 61.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 1:51 pm

    Jen Psaki is asked if “Peter Doocy is a stupid son of a bitch or does he just play one on tv:”

    “He works for a network that provides people with questions that, nothing personal to any individual including Peter Doocy, but might make anyone sound like a stupid son of a bitch.” pic.twitter.com/2FYMPX12Rr

    — Eugene Daniels (@EugeneDaniels2) April 15, 2022

  62. 62.

    lowtechcyclist

    April 15, 2022 at 1:53 pm

    @germy: Basically, we’ve got a large and growing shortage of housing near where the jobs are, and the NIMBY types in each city are in a position to frustrate attempts to do anything about it.

    We need some sort of national housing policy, to build more housing in cities and the inner ‘burbs where there is or could easily be good mass transit.  But that’s a harder problem than someone like me can solve.

    ETA: People talk about affordable housing, but ISTM that the first step is simply to have enough housing.  It’s hard to have housing be affordable if there isn’t enough of it.  And if we had enough housing, the people buying them up as investment properties would have a harder time making much money that way.

  63. 63.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 1:55 pm

    Remember the mass shooting at the Brooklyn subway station?

    — Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) April 15, 2022

    for those confused by this, glenn is echoing the prevailing argument on the far right that the shooting got memory-holed when the media found out the shooter was Black. which is absurd, because i'm in new york and this shit has been on the news 24/7. racist contrarian brain rot! https://t.co/lOVwEQNhKd

    — known gaslighter (@AFABRocky) April 15, 2022

  64. 64.

    WhatsMyNym

    April 15, 2022 at 1:59 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Add cost of housing to that as well.

    Housing prices will go down again, it always does.
    I paid less than half of what my condo is worth now, only 6 years ago. Nobody was interested in buying then, even though the local economy was doing very well. Folks are a bunch of lemmings when it comes to money.

  65. 65.

    different-church-lady

    April 15, 2022 at 2:00 pm

    @germy: ​I remember that, along with the fact that Greenwald is nothing but a troll.​

  66. 66.

    lowtechcyclist

    April 15, 2022 at 2:01 pm

    @germy: I honestly don’t know how the national news people decide what is and isn’t a story, but I suspect that the absence of any fatalities made it a bit less of a story away from NYC once the shooter was found.

  67. 67.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 2:01 pm

    Let them eat cake

  68. 68.

    Benw

    April 15, 2022 at 2:02 pm

    @Sure Lurkalot: now I have to figure out how to protect them this year!

  69. 69.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 15, 2022 at 2:03 pm

    @WhatsMyNym: Zillow says house is worth a cartoonish amount of money. If somebody knocked on my door and offered me that amount, as is, I’d sign and find something smaller in a cheaper place. If they offered me 80% and said I could leave behind anything I didn’t want, I’d be sorely tempted. (But then I really hate moving.)

    All of which to say: The “correction” is going to be ugly.

  70. 70.

    Betty Cracker

    April 15, 2022 at 2:04 pm

    @burnspbesq:

    Texas AG Ken Paxton says the quiet part loudly: “The governor has figured out we can stop trade along the border, slow it down, and it will create pressure on Mexico and some of their governors to work out a deal to help us with border security.”

    Just blatantly unconstitutional. pic.twitter.com/KWsbEs6sws

    — Eric Kleefeld (@EricKleefeld) April 15, 2022

    Two questions for you and/or any other lawyer who cares to weigh in:

    1) Do you agree this is unconstitutional? Sounds like it to me, but I’m not an expert.

    2) Will Paxton ever stand trial on the felony fraud charges, or did he already wriggle out of that somehow?

  71. 71.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 15, 2022 at 2:05 pm

    People never expect gas prices to go back up, and too many, even those who were adults in 08-09, never expect housing or stock prices to go down

  72. 72.

    James E Powell

    April 15, 2022 at 2:05 pm

    @cain:

    You know pretty much GOP will make hay about anything – including even abortion. Much as I hate to say it, you’ll have to trust the American voter to figure things out.

    American voters aren’t very good at that. Democrats need to lead them, make the argument. It’s not going to work with Republican voters, we have to ignore them. But we need to explain our position to our voters and to those who are not bigots.

  73. 73.

    The Truffle

    April 15, 2022 at 2:07 pm

    @burnspbesq: Beto can at the very least make a campaign ad out of this.

  74. 74.

    Peale

    April 15, 2022 at 2:10 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Its been 3 years of “investigating” a god damned fraud without charges. So my guess its been dropped.

  75. 75.

    taumaturgo

    April 15, 2022 at 2:10 pm

    @Betty Cracker: “As always, you’re mad at the wrong people.”

    Please do tell me, if I’m mad at the wrong people, who in your estimation should I be mad at for Biden’s tanking poll numbers and the democrat’s crappy brand? I believe an impartial observer would be upset at the people in charge of the organization for its failings, yet you may have a better idea.

  76. 76.

    lowtechcyclist

    April 15, 2022 at 2:10 pm

    @WhatsMyNym: Housing prices will go down again, it always does.

    Relative to the last peak, maybe.  The only places they seem to go back down to where they were, are places that are regarded as out of commuting range from where the jobs are.

  77. 77.

    EZSmirkzz

    April 15, 2022 at 2:15 pm

    Del Rio, TX

    It is being reported that police pulled over a 2 ton box truck outside of Del Rio, Texas after observing erratic driving by the truck driver. Apparently the truck was observed speeding up to 75 mph and over the course of twenty minutes slowing to 50-55 mph when the driver would pull over to the shoulder and bang on the box of the truck with a stick or ax handle, thereupon jumping into the truck and repeating the procedure three more times before being pulled over by law enforcement officers from 2 different jurisdictions looking for pilgrims and contraband.

    The driver explained to officers that while in Del Rio all he could find was the 1 ton box truck, yet he had to transport 2 tons of parakeets to San Antonio and so he had to pull over once in a while and beat on the  box, telling officers if he didn’t keep half of the parakeets flying the truck wasn’t going to make it.

  78. 78.

    Baud

    April 15, 2022 at 2:16 pm

    @taumaturgo:

    You can choose to be mad at Biden for the current poll numbers.  You just can’t pretend anyone else could do any better.

  79. 79.

    WhatsMyNym

    April 15, 2022 at 2:16 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:   Which metro area are you talking about?

  80. 80.

    James E Powell

    April 15, 2022 at 2:17 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    Agree with all four of your points and I’m not sure exactly what to do either. But something has to be done to lessen the impact.

    Though I am just another clown talking about playing shortstop while I’m sitting on a couch, I would suggest Part A would be to ridicule & disparage the Republicans routine racist demagoguery on this issue. Part B would be to explain the Democratic program in broad strokes.

    As much complaining as we hear on cable shows, this is still a country that people believe is a great place to live. We should be proud of that. The claim that people moving here from elsewhere will harm us is not just a lie, it’s been a lie for more than 200 years.

    The border is something that has to be managed, not demagogued. Democrats have developed proposals to modernize and reform immigration & border control. The Republicans have opposed every effort and have offered nothing. They want problems at the border because they believe it’s a great campaign issue. They make matters worse. Abbott is just the most recent example. I’d feature him in the TV ads.

  81. 81.

    gvg

    April 15, 2022 at 2:17 pm

    First I don’t believe most voters put immigration at the top of their concerns. That strikes me as unlikely enough to make me think something is wrong with the polling. Inflation and gas prices yes……immigration and the border BS.

    Some part of republican voters always think it’s important, so it will always poll, but not that high right now.

    Some specific areas might see it as more important. It’s just not the biggest national issue though. Which might be why it never really gets solved.

    It might be a wise strategy to have some good responses about how the fear is ginned up by specific organizations. I personally would like to say, the only problems are caused by republican budget cuts that have downsized the immigration service so much that they can’t process the legitimate immigration in a timely manner. People can’t even get their spouses citizenship which should be mostly routine. There just isn’t that much reason to worry about it. And dreamers should get citizenship now. This country was built on immigration. We don’t need to fear it.

  82. 82.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 2:19 pm

    Wall Street Journal asks the important question:

    Floored pic.twitter.com/M4ghcAuXIs

    — melissa “cancel student debt” byrne (@mcbyrne) April 14, 2022

  83. 83.

    Eunicecycle

    April 15, 2022 at 2:21 pm

    @Albatrossity: perfect. I guess I think that because it’s what I was thinking!

  84. 84.

    James E Powell

    April 15, 2022 at 2:24 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    One remark in a Republican debate suggesting compassion toward immigrants completely tanked Perry’s campaign.

  85. 85.

    germy

    April 15, 2022 at 2:25 pm

    shoutout to the ninth amendment, the one so good the right pretends it doesn't even exist

    — Jane (@JaneOst_) April 15, 2022

  86. 86.

    lowtechcyclist

    April 15, 2022 at 2:25 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: A couple of thoughts:

    1. I wouldn’t trust that Zestimate without checking with a local realtor who knows the market.
    2. Yeah, the housing market seems a bit crazy right now.  But the questions to ask are, why are housing prices going up right now, and will those same circumstances be here next year and the year after?

    The fundamentals of the housing market are that the number of people and families needing a place to live keeps going up, and the ability of builders to increase the housing supply close in to where the jobs are is very limited.  Unless someone figures out a way to grow supply to meet demand, prices will go up over time. It’s that simple.

  87. 87.

    Betty Cracker

    April 15, 2022 at 2:27 pm

    @taumaturgo: Try to focus. You quoted me and said this in the comment I replied to:

    “I’m not sure how you “reframe” such an issue, as Mr. Fresco suggests above.”

    Is a simple code language to tack further to the right to appease the fearful conservative democrats. That should work wonders for Biden’s tanking poll numbers and the deteriorated Democrat’s brand.

    Neither Mr. Fresco (an immigration lawyer) nor I advocated tacking “further to the right to appease the fearful conservative democrats,” hence my reply.

  88. 88.

    lowtechcyclist

    April 15, 2022 at 2:33 pm

    @WhatsMyNym: The metro areas where the economy has been consistently growing.  How does your metro area stack up now, thinking about major employers needing lots of skilled workers, relative to where it was in, say, 2005?

  89. 89.

    Geminid

    April 15, 2022 at 2:38 pm

    @Peale:

     

    @Betty Cracker: Paxton’s criminal charges are still current. The defense and prosecution are now fighting over venue. Paxton wants to be tried in his home county and won a recent court decision in his favor on this issue. The prosecution wants a different venue and are appealing.       From the Texas Tribune.

  90. 90.

    WhatsMyNym

    April 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Good resource – Housing market. Allows you to add a location to compare to the USA overall.

  91. 91.

    Brachiator

    April 15, 2022 at 2:40 pm

    @James E Powell:

    RE: You know pretty much GOP will make hay about anything – including even abortion. Much as I hate to say it, you’ll have to trust the American voter to figure things out.

    American voters aren’t very good at that.

    Well, these are the only voters we’ve got.

    Democrats need to lead them, make the argument.

    How about persuade them?

  92. 92.

    Neldob

    April 15, 2022 at 2:42 pm

    Hey, guess what Gov Abbott- grandstanding doesn’t help! Crazy peckerhead. Sheesh. (Please do something that helps.)

    Also I wonder what the new vice did down there. Didnt near much about it. Didnt really look.

  93. 93.

    WhatsMyNym

    April 15, 2022 at 2:46 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:   I was in Seattle on Queen Anne hill (north of downtown) in 2005, which was still full of old folks (so not hip and still cheaper).  Seattle market had been hit hard by the dot-com bust, housing was kept afloat by cheap money until housing bust. Newer condos dropped the most in the city center

    ETA:  Seattle was almost completely rebuilt, can’t even recognize most it.

  94. 94.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 15, 2022 at 2:50 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: I was mostly kidding. My house isn’t for sale, even if I do sometimes think about moving to a quieter, cheaper place, it doesn’t make sense right now.

    I’ve heard from a few sources I trust that the current market is a less a bubble than prices catching up to a market artificially (so to speak) deflated by the 08-09 crash. But it seems to me the first time I heard that was almost two years ago, and I can’t imagine there isn’t some froth in current prices.

  95. 95.

    Urza

    April 15, 2022 at 2:50 pm

    I’m late to the thread I know.  The rewording goes like this “We can’t fill all the open jobs right now, and immigrants would help alleviate these shortages.  Lines would get shorter.  And since immigrants work for less it would reduce the inflation you’re always whining about.”

    They would still complain because its about the brown skins coming in even if it does help them, but at least you could throw it in their face as to why immigration can be a good thing.

  96. 96.

    Villago Delenda Est

    April 15, 2022 at 2:53 pm

    Darn, no way to send Betty a Gary Larson take; a guy standing in front of two doors, one marked damned if you do, the other marked damned if you don’t, and Lucifer telling him he has to choose one of them.

  97. 97.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 15, 2022 at 2:55 pm

    one of the hardest Balloon Juice things to wrap my head around is that traumaturge might be sincere in his (I’d a bet a goodly sum) stupidity

  98. 98.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    April 15, 2022 at 3:00 pm

    @Kent:How much sound and fury has been expended weaponizing Critical Race Theory when it never actually was a thing?

    Their latest thing is make up shit about teaching pre-schoolers to be gay.

  99. 99.

    jl

    April 15, 2022 at 3:00 pm

    @Brachiator: I interpret your comment as strongly suggesting that the Democrats in office need to be more assertive in making their case the public. If that is what you meant, I strongly agree.

  100. 100.

    jl

    April 15, 2022 at 3:02 pm

    IMO, Democrats have fallen into some kind of bizarre stupor. Maybe they are trying to get their arguments noticed, but from what I see in the media, it isn’t getting much attention. They seem exhausted and unimaginative, almost sleepwalking through more than one crisis.

  101. 101.

    UncleEbeneezer

    April 15, 2022 at 3:07 pm

    @gvg: Anat Shenker-Osario has suggestions:

    Words that Work on Immigrant Rights

    The recommendations that follow draw upon previous research* into perception and persuasion on racial justice, immigrant rights and economic equity. The key for policy victories and voter engagement around immigrant rights is bringing the connections between racial divisions, anti-immigrant actions and wide-spread economic hardship to the fore. Our findings support tackling anti-immigrant rhetoric and policies as divide-and-conquer tactics that sow distrust, undermine belief in government, and cause hardship for everyone, of every color and place of origin:

    No matter where we come from, what our color or how we worship, most of us work hard for our families. (1)

    But today, certain politicians and their greedy lobbyists hurt everyone by handing kickbacks to the rich, defunding our schools, and threatening seniors with cuts to Medicare and Social Security. Then they turn around and point the finger for our hard times at new immigrants – even tearing families apart and abusing children. (2)

    We need to join together with people across racial differences to demand fair and safe immigration processes for all families, just like we won civil rights in our past. (3)

    By joining together, we can make this a place that honors all families, no exceptions. (4)

    Narrative Elements

    1. Discuss race overtly and as including everyone
    2. Name racial scapegoating as a weapon that harms all of us economically
    3. Emphasize unity and collective action
    4. Connect this unity to government for all
  102. 102.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 15, 2022 at 3:07 pm

    @jl: it’s because very few of the crises they/we are facing have political solutions (gas prices, inflation, Covid and Covid fatigue), and the ones that do require Democrats to modify the filibuster (and more), which they can’t do

  103. 103.

    Jinchi

    April 15, 2022 at 3:09 pm

    I’m not sure how you “reframe” such an issue, as Mr. Fresco suggests above. Administration officials quoted in the article implicitly reject Fresco’s dilemma by saying it’s possible to lift the order without chaos ensuing.

    I get exasperated at these reactions from Democratic officials.  “Chaos” ensues when Republicans tell everyone to panic and Democrats play along with the framing. The caravans of 2018 vanished the day after the election. They didn’t have to be real for Fox news to hype them up.

    Title 42 was a BS rule and Biden was right to ditch it. These candidates have to grow a spine and give their voters a reason to come out on election day. Maybe Jen Psaki can give a messaging workshop in how to deal with nonsense. This is only a problem for them as long as they make it one.​

  104. 104.

    Baud

    April 15, 2022 at 3:11 pm

    @Jinchi: Not an official.  A former aid to Schumer.

  105. 105.

    Baud

    April 15, 2022 at 3:13 pm

    @jl:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

     

    Maybe I’m not watching closely enough, but Biden always seems upbeat.

  106. 106.

    Jackie

    April 15, 2022 at 3:13 pm

    I didn’t read the comments before posting, so it’s probably been mentioned, BUT why are the repugs using Covid as the excuse – while at the same time throwing conniption-fits about mask mandates, vaccinations, etc? If, as they claim such is no longer needed…

    I know, I know. They’re very talented of speaking from both sides of their mouths ??‍♀️??‍♀️??

  107. 107.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 15, 2022 at 3:20 pm

    @Jinchi:

    These candidates have to grow a spine and give their voters a reason to come out on election day.

    which candidates and what’s the evidence that in their states/districts, voters are just waiting for them to show “a spine” on this issue? You really think Raphael Warnock is some skeerdy-cat moderate, and there are hordes of untapped voters in Georgia whose top issue is liberalizing immigration? You think Catherine Cortez-Masto, who has won three tight statewide races (I believe the first Latina to hold statewide office in NV) really doesn’t understand her own electorate?

  108. 108.

    Old Man Shadow

    April 15, 2022 at 3:24 pm

    People need help. Help them.

    People need fed. Feed them.

    People need a hug. Hug them.

    People need clothes. Clothe them.

    People need healing. Get a doctor for them.

    “Take care of our own first!”

    Sure. We can take care of our own too.

    “We can’t help the world!”

    We can help the people in front of us begging for a new home and safety.

    “They’ll destroy our economy!”

    They’ll settle into our country, create new jobs and businesses, become a part of our national DNA.

    Whatever you do for the least of these…

    You fundie Christians want to serve Jesus? He’s a mother in a Mexican camp right now trying to escape gang violence, poverty, and hunger. He’s a child who was sent by his parents to escape gang life. He’s a woman afraid of being raped by cartels or corrupt cops.

    Ain’t no reason not to help these folks except you don’t want to or you think they deserve misery because of their ethnicity or color of their skin.

  109. 109.

    eclare

    April 15, 2022 at 3:25 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:   Saw where Warnock has now tested negative after having covid.  I hope he’s back at work or campaigning!

    I think the Senate is out…

  110. 110.

    trollhattan

    April 15, 2022 at 3:27 pm

    This guy was my top pick for Republican most likely to replace Inhofe, selected from the category Worse than Inhofe. Just shoot me.

    April 15, 2022 at 2:52 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard

    Former Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt (R) is running for U.S. Senate, Tulsa World reports.

    Also the former head of the Environmental Protection Agency appointed by Donald Trump, Pruitt has filed to campaign for the U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-OK).

    Compared to Pruitt, DeVos was a shining paragon of virtue.

  111. 111.

    eclare

    April 15, 2022 at 3:27 pm

    @Old Man Shadow:  Seems like I remember bracelets with WWJD written on them were really popular with the fundie crowd a few years ago.

    Fucking hypocrites.

  112. 112.

    Baud

    April 15, 2022 at 3:36 pm

    @eclare:

    My the idea behind asking the question is to do the opposite.

  113. 113.

    gene108

    April 15, 2022 at 3:37 pm

    @germy:

    My niece is 24 years old. She has an $85,000 school loan she owes.

    It causes a lot of stress in her life. I don’t see her as having a “where’s mine” attitude. She was told her whole life by teachers that she’d never amount to anything without a college degree. She saw classmates who skipped college and now they’re working as cashiers.

    One problem of the last 20 years is the loss of good jobs for the 70% of people, who do not go to college.

    Not everyone can go into trades, which can still pay well.

    Plus, we really need a handle on why college costs keep going up so much. Like healthcare inflation, out of control college costs is a drag on the economy and needs to be addressed.

  114. 114.

    kalakal

    April 15, 2022 at 3:37 pm

    @cain:

    What I do know is that this country thrives on illegal immigration – our farms and orchards are filled with them. What the GOP wants is still allow illegal immigrants (which is why they don’t punish people who hire illegal immigrants) but be able to exploit these people and then if they get caught throw them away and get more.

    Nails it. If the Dems were to announce that the GOP were right, illegal immigration is our biggest problem, and that they were going to combat it by prosecuting to the max all those evil, anti American traitors who are depriving real ‘Muricans of jobs by employing foreigners etc. etc. and other such GQP bullshit the GOP would be back tracking so fast you’d measure the velocity by red shift.

    The GQP are an evil bunch

  115. 115.

    Ohio Mom

    April 15, 2022 at 3:38 pm

    @louc: Yes, undocumented workers who use Social Security numbers that belong to other people in order to hide the fact they are undocumented, do indeed contribute a lot of money to the retirement system.

    But I don’t know if we should crow about what is essentially stealing their money. Unless they are given a path to citizenship and take it, they are never going to collect any Social Security.

    But then again, stealing from brown people (Native Americans and enslaved Africans) is arguably the American Way.

  116. 116.

    Mike in NC

    April 15, 2022 at 3:40 pm

    Our former crappy GOP governor Pat McCrory has a new ad out attacking his would-be US Senate competitors. He claims to have been the most conservative governor in the history of North Carolina. A dubious claim, one might argue. But he’s also shown wearing a flannel vest, just like that putz Glen Youngkin did to get elected governor in Virginia. Pretty sad.

  117. 117.

    TheTruffle

    April 15, 2022 at 3:41 pm

    @Kent: The Democrats need to wheel out their own Contract with America. Preferably close to the midterm elections. That’s what the GOP did 28 years ago.

  118. 118.

    GoBlueInOak

    April 15, 2022 at 3:45 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: Correct.  Average American (and average BJ’er judging by the comments) doesn’t really grok that the current housing market is increasingly unaffordable not because of some “bubble” or other artificial reason but due to some very basic structural fundamentals that most local and state politicians who mostly answer to retiree Boomer homeowners and have their heads in the sand over wishing it would all just go away:

    1.  Millenials – largest demographic boom since the Baby Boomers and, IIRC, now the single largest demographic cohort.  Millenials are no longer “the kids these days” but middle aged adults with spouses & families who have hit their prime homebuying years.  This translates into a very large demand for homes, that probably has another 10 years to truly run its course.  (and then the smaller, but still large, Gen Z will start hitting its homebuying years…)  Generation prior to Millenials was the much smaller Gen Z, such that housing demand 20+ years ago was quite a bit lower.
    2. Supply – We have drastically undersupplied new housing unit production compared to population and job growth for years and years.  This even PREDATES the Great Recession.  New housing unit production per capita peaked in the 1970s, with some brief bursts here and there in the 80s-90s, and then again briefly  in the mid-2000s just before the Great Recession.   And since then its been REALLY anemic in terms of new housing unit starts, with a VERY VERY slow crawl off the 2008-2010 bottom.  Far too little supply meets increasing demand = prices go up.  Its not that complicated.
    3. NIMBYism and Local Land Use – Making #2 above increasingly impossible to solve is rampant NIMBYism and stringent local land use (zoning, etc) making it near impossible for homebuilders and apartment developers to build new housing units except at the narrow high margin luxury end of the market.  We’ve subjected the production of new housing units in the U.S. to such a Rube Goldberg bureaucratic morass that there’s been no way to effectively meet that rising demand in Issue #1 by solving for Issue #2.   Again, under-supply meets rising demand = prices go up.   That’s not a bubble, that’s just fundamentals

    My prediction is the inflation hawks at the Fed win their current fight, and hike rates so high so fast it creates a hard landing (AKA a recession) that otherwise would never have occurred (b/c economies that are growing, producing jobs, etc like ours do not just suddently crash on their own absent bad public policy decisions).  And with having engineered an un-needed recession on behalf of the Bankster class, politicians will just go on ignoring the fundmental problems in the housing market b/c prices will temporarily come down b/c everyone will be out of a job instead of having actually addressed those underlying structural issues.

  119. 119.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 15, 2022 at 4:34 pm

    @GoBlueInOak: “Boomers” and “Banksters”? Christ, Dwight, you’re going to be really annoying this cycle, aren’t you? should we start putting together a GoBlue Buzzword Bingo card for the mid-term cycle?

  120. 120.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    April 15, 2022 at 5:13 pm

    @gvg: For conservatives, abortion, taxes/government spending, immigration, crime, and the ‘threat’ of LGBT+ are the most important issues. They will cycle through each of those issues, howling as loudly as possible about them. Basically, all of them get portrayed as evidence that liberals are trying to destroy our culture. Even some of the screaming about abortion is related to the feeling that the culture is changing and they need more white people like them to stop it. They act like this is an existential threat because they think it is. They’ve steadily been losing ground in the culture wars, so now they are just ready to burn it all down.

  121. 121.

    Geminid

    April 15, 2022 at 7:14 pm

    @GoBlueInOak: I agree that many Democrats can underestimate the weight of housing prices on other people, especially younger Americans. I remember when a New Mexico jackal who has done a lot of organizing for the party among young New Mexicans described salient issues among that group.

    The jackal said affordable housing was a top concern. Once I thought about this, it made perfect sense to me. But I had not thought of this before because it was not a concern of mine.

  122. 122.

    EZSmirkzz

    April 15, 2022 at 7:51 pm

    FWIW in my misspent youth in the 1970s I read 2 books you may find with your efforts to read, The Nazi Hydra

    Not all fascists need exhibit all of the traits once again it should be emphasized that the all fascist will exhibit a totalitarian view coupled with extreme nationalism. We’ll look briefly at the above traits and how they relate to fascism using primarily Nazi Germany as an example.

    Those traits you may be familiar with,

    1. Totalitarian
    2. Extreme nationalism
    3. Top down revolution or movement
    4. Destructive divisionism such as racism and class warfare
    5. Extreme anti-communism, anti socialism and anti-liberal views
    6. Extreme exploitation
    7. Opportunistic ideology lacking in consistency as a means to grab power
    8. Unbridled Corporatism
    9. Reactionary
    10. The use of violence and terror to attain and maintain power
    11. Cult-like figurehead
    12. The expounding of mysticism or religious beliefs

    The Other book is Paul Johnson’s Modern Times.

    You might be interested in knowing that most Christians, do not ascribe to, nor exhibit the traits listed above. A fellow I knew once told me if you see a man without shoes, don’t ask him if needs a pair of shoes, just give him a pair of shoes.

    If non-Christians want to criticize Christians behavior towards their fellow man it would behoove you not to exhibit the same behavior towards them. We are not monolithic anymore than any other group. They too wouldn’t say shit if they had a mouthful of it either.

    On that note II will gladly give my stool to anyone climbing on or off of their high horse.

    Peace

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