Chief Justice John Roberts’ statement on the leaked SCOTUS opinion, via CNN:
“This was a singular and egregious breach of that trust that is an affront to the Court and the community of public servants who work here. I have directed the Marshal of the Court to launch an investigation into the source of the leak,” Roberts said in a statement Tuesday.
“To the extent this betrayal of the confidences of the Court was intended to undermine the integrity of our operations, it will not succeed,” Roberts said. “The work of the Court will not be affected in any way…
He’s right that the court’s integrity won’t be undermined — the Roberts court doesn’t have any fucking integrity. I know Roberts allegedly sided with the liberals on this decision, but fuck that harrumphing fraud. The best thing Roberts could do for the court’s precious “integrity” would be to drop dead during a Democratic administration so a president who actually won the popular vote could offset one of the three frauds Trump appointed.
Open thread.
zhena gogolia
“the integrity of our operations” hahahaha
Elizabelle
It is an illegitimate Supreme Court. Always, since Merrick Garland’s seat was stolen.
I hope mortality claims several of the longest-serving GOP judges first. Alito and Thomas: no loss, whatsoever.
I would like to see us improve our numbers in the House and Senate, and change the structure of the Supreme Court. No more life terms. 18 to 20 years is plenty. Replaced on a rolling basis. No more demographic or electoral bingo.
Expand the justices to 13, minimum, since they are overworked.
Eventually: get rid of the fucking Electoral College. Thank Dieu France does not have one.
brendancalling
@Elizabelle: I will dance the hula down Broadway when Thomas and Alito die, and then I will have to find their headstones so I can defecate on them.
For real: gonna be a huge celebration in my house when those two fucks kick the bucket.
Old School
This is an outrage! The Justices’ opinion are not supposed to be known to the public until we are about to get out of town!
Alison Rose ???
Pretty sure RBG’s ghost is trying desperately to kick Roberts in the junk right about now. As well as all the fuckers who are going to sign onto Alito’s bullshit. But I’m sure Justice Sotomayor will do it for her metaphorically in her dissent.
Joe from Lowell
I think Roberts is the Supreme Court version of the elderly Democratic senators and former senators who use the phrase “the world’s greatest deliberative body” unironically.
That is to say, a mark who is easily exploited by the cynics who surround him.
Kay
Oh, no. The truth is getting its pants on!
By the end of the day the “unprecedented!” claim will be “except for the other two times they leaked to try to sway a wobbly Right wing justice” :)
So bad on so many levels to so many institutions. They’re just burning it to the ground.
JPL
I dreamt that Clarence and Ginni were forced off the court. It might be time for one dream to come true.
The Moar You Know
They had this planned to come out right after the June elections. Where’s the integrity? They had this done in February.
Elizabelle
@brendancalling:
Remember how the Scalia family refused to divulge, for some time after his passing, where the late great Antonin was interred?
It’s in suburban Fairfax County. Now easy to find. Albeit, I assume there may be cameras near the gravesite. For, uh, security.
(I still love how George Mason U was thinking of renaming its law school the Antonin Scalia School of Law until someone considered sounding out the acronym.)
Redshift
How terrible to violate the trust of “justices” who blatantly lied in their confirmation hearings!
Elizabelle
@JPL: Clarence and Ginni. May they be featured, to their extreme detriment, in the January 6 hearings, to commence in June. (Someone said June 9th??)
Must see viewing.
PST
I am prepared to be surprised by who leaked the draft opinion. The idea that one of the the liberal judges (or one of their clerks) leaked it in order to pump up outside opposition that might change a mind or two is hard to believe. Other motives are easier to imagine, such as getting this out early so there is more time for outrage to fade before the election, floating a trial balloon to see what the broad Federalist Society constituency thinks, inability to resist the temptation to share a triumph, hope of blunting outrage at the substance by stimulating outrage over the leak? There are lots of possibilities.
Redshift
@Elizabelle: From what I’ve heard, there are still GMU students who refer to it as ASSLaw.
Elizabelle
I do wonder if this will affect the Ohio primary. Go with the least crazy of the GOP mouthbreathers up for the Senate.
Martin
The rumor is that Roberts concurs with the decision, but not the opinion. He rules for Mississippi, but doesn’t agree with the full-throated expression against Roe and Casey.
I don’t think he leaked it, FWIW. But I don’t know what he thinks he’s investigating. No law was broken here.
JPL
Kyle Griffin
@kylegriffin1
·
15m
Breaking. Vice President Harris: “The rights of all Americans are at risk. If the right to privacy is weakened, every person could face a future in which the government can potentially interfere in the personal decisions you make about your life. This is the time to fight.”
LAO
AITA? — I don’t care who leaked the opinion. I truly, deeply do not care. I sort of, maybe, understand why legal twitter and Republicans are losing their minds over the leak but I could give a rats ass.
JPL
@Martin: Amy makes the case that there was fear that one conservative justice might side with Roberts and preserve Roe, but agree with MS Amy Kapczynski (@akapczynski) / Twitter
VOR
@Elizabelle: Trump’s grave is going to need some serious landscaping to handle the drainage.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Being the cynical sort, I think that Alito draft is him letting his freak flag fly before the weasel words were put in and it was being circulated outside the court as wingnut porn to keep the Religious Right from bailing, some small c conservative who has nothing to do with court who it got passed to realized how utter insane these justices are was who leaked it. And now they are are pissed off they got caught accidently telling the truth.
Elizabelle
@VOR: But may he not be in that grave until his ass has been parked in prison for a decade or two.
Gonna have to take the Princess Diana route. Grave on a private island on an estate. [In this a-hole’s case: golf course.] Inaccessible — but here’s a museum nearby you can pay to see! Fore!
kindness
I expect Republicans to make the leak the story but for God’s sake, why does the MSM keep licking Republican’s huevos by repeating that as if that is the important story?
randal m sexton
@VOR: The Trump Mausoleum or Tomb or whatever should just be installed into a sewage treatment plant.
PST
I read the damn opinion start to finish. It is very skillfully put together. The fact is, there are far more people who regard Roe as essential, indispensable, wise, and humane than there are who think that it was well reasoned, and Alito focuses on the weaknesses. One chilling aspect of the opinion is how often Alito repeats that this should not be viewed as affecting other rights.
I can just see the smirk on Alito’s face. The reasoning of the opinion applies to all these other rights as well. We will soon see how quickly the court can erase the “but abortion is different” distinction that he is trying to sell.
debbie
@Elizabelle:
This CNN article on their live updates page interviewed a few voters in Cincinnati, and they all mentioned Roe v Wade as a primary factor. The page also has a good article about Tim Ryan (though I was sad to be reminded about Jim Trafficant).
Cameron
Stop both-sidesing it, Ms. Cracker – tell us what you really feel!
different-church-lady
@VOR: Bury him in a septic tank. Problem solved.
Spanky
@kindness: At this point, on this blog, that question is either rhetorical or snark.
Ryan
The content of the leak is what is egregious.
Elizabelle
@debbie: Excellent article. Thank you.
I think it’s ironic: the conservatives on the Supreme Court were full speed ahead on this one, which must have been decided shortly before Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, no?
May they all go down to defeat. They misread the room.
different-church-lady
@PST: In screen writing, that’s called “suspiciously specific denial”.
debbie
@Elizabelle:
I think it was decided before they took their oaths, which is why I think they need to face actual consequences for their bald-faced lies about protecting precedent. Shading the truth is one thing, but they out and out lied!
Geminid
I was working a tedious job this morning so I had Hew Hewitt on the radio to brighten my day. Hewitt thought the leak was a terrible assault on our institutions. A guest agreed and worried that the import of striking down Roe might overshadow the more consequential scandal of the leak.
Then Hewitt has an interesting exchange with political journalist Byron York. Hewitt’s a bouyant guy, and he was chortling about how the leaker hurt his cause by getting this opinion out so far before the midterms. York reminded him that people will be reenergized when the opinion is delivered end of June. But, Hewitt said, when people read Alito’s opinion they’ll be blown away by the strength of his jurisprudence! York responded that he did not think voters are going to be thinking about the finer points of constitutional law this November.
Jeffro
@Redshift: You’d be correct. ;)
TerryTime
@Elizabelle: Longer than that. I am still mad about Anita Hill and Bush v Gore gave us Roberts and Alito.
RaflW
I find Politico to be a trashfire of insider absurdities on a good day. But this is absolutely not normal in a functioning democracy:
Elizabelle
All the pearl clutching over a (not unprecedented) leak: it’s reminding me of when we learned of
Trumphole’s jocular call to the new widow of an Army soldier killed in Niger (Mrs. Myeshia Johnson, widow of Sgt. La David Johnson).How a conservative woman I know was all incensed about Representative Frederica Wilson divulging what was said in a private condolence call from the POTUS. You will recall that John Kelly called Wilson “an empty barrel” during the imbroglio. (Good times.)
Way to sidestep the actual substance of the call. They have a limited playbook, don’t they?
Focus on the leak. Not on the inhumanity revealed.
waspuppet
No one thinks the Roberts court has any integrity. There are Americans who know it has no integrity, and Republicans who know it doesn’t have any integrity but they like the decisions it cranks out so they don’t care.
Jeffro
@Geminid:
No wonder he said all this on the radio…all his grinning and winking would give the game away if he said it on TV
PPCLI
@Martin: Roberts is by far the most politically crafty of the Justices — he has shrewdly and apparently correctly calculated that just whittling away abortion rights to nothing while preserving the fig leaf of a Roe precedent is a way to get the effect of overruling while avoiding political consequences for the Republican party.
And indeed, there is remarkably little celebrating among anti-abortion Republicans — they are all howling about process and “norms” (LOL) but nobody is taking the time to celebrate and dunk the ball. They know that electorally this is a loser.
debbie
@Geminid:
Alito and “jurisprudence” in the same sentence? ? ? ? ? ?
Eunicecycle
@Elizabelle: I’m not sure who that would be! I voted for Tim Ryan, if course.
Kay
@JPL:
That’s a good argument. Barrett knows it too- she prebutted it at hearing. Agency, autonomy, privacy, that whole set.
I can’t be the only person feels suffocated by these people and their intrusion. Back off.
RaflW
@Joe from Lowell: I’d say Roberts is deeply relieved that he can be the lone ‘moderate’ conservative vote on cases he wants desperately to pass, but with his fingerprints elsewhere.
He gets to be the 6th vote on statist corporatism, oligarchy, limits on voting and fee speech, but oh, lookee, he’s kind of a social moderate in a narrow band of votes. Whoopeee.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Geminid: Begs the question – if the ruling is so solid as Hewitt claims, then why all the outrage about getting it out there?
Geminid
@debbie: Hewitt’s essentially a salesman.
But I found out something interesting this morning. Hewitt told a guest that he wasn’t going to say anything bad about Tim Ryan, that they had been friends since high school.
RaflW
@Martin: re: The leak investigation, if it was a liberal clerk, Robert’s will figure out how to electrocute their legal career. If it turns out to be a conservative clerk, his office will quietly indicate that “an internal Human Resources issue” “was resolved”.
TonyG
John Roberts is the “acceptable” face that covers for and enables the drooling right-wing cretins that form the majority of the Supreme Court. In a way, he’s even worse than the justices that he enables.
hueyplong
@Geminid: Are you willing to bet any of your own money that Hewitt keeps that pledge?
trollhattan
OT the deep love of Ted Cruz is international.
Kay
@RaflW:
The violence on this has always come from the Right. 42 bombings.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Elizabelle: This also reminds me of the Republican outrage over the leak of the abuse going on at Abu Ghraib prison during the Iraq War.
Dangerman
@PST: To a non lawyer, that sounds like Bush v. Gore.
Kay
No one will be surprised if this turns out to be true. Once you have a justice and his spouse plotting an overthrow, everything is on the table.
I can’t imagine being a conservative now and thinking “we would NEVER do that”. Hmmm. You sure about that? I think I’d stay quiet.
Villago Delenda Est
As long as any member of the Federalist Society or Opus Dei sits on the Supreme Court, it has no integrity.
Ocotillo
I hope those who think this will help at the polls are correct. I am uncertain about that, I keep thinking of how 53% of white women voted for TFG.
I think the leak came from the right side of the court, that is why the right wing talking points are screaming about the leak, it is meant to distract from the consequences of the decision.
neabinorb
I suppose we will still retain the unenumerated 9th amendment right to choose – Charmin or Cottonelle, Walmart or Meijer, Toyota or Subaru, etc. It feels like we’re being reduced from citizens to subjects of the federal and state governments.
Princess Leia
@JPL:
I think this is the right framing. We need to talk about privacy rights that are not being discussed on the left that also will be at risk.
RaflW
@Kay: Yeah, some RW tool was saying overnight that it wasn’t the right that went nuts 49 years ago.
But of course the violence has ramped up over time. George Tiller was murdered 13 years ago.
And I think we will likewise see a terrible rise in hate crimes against LGBT people as the whole god-awful “groomer” thing has bloomed.
We are in for tough times.
hueyplong
If a left-leaner like me was looking to leak, I wouldn’t use Politico.
Just saying.
FelonyGovt
I’m outraged and cranky but also very tired. I’m almost 25 years past childbearing age and my daughter is gay and not likely to ever need an abortion. I’m going back and forth between wanting to fight like hell, and feeling like this is a fight younger women will have to step up and engage in.
Damien
Can I just say that the fit being pitched by SCOTUS right now about the leak seems to indicate they have some kind of expectation of a right to…what’s the word?
jonas
Dems need to hammer home two essential points for the remainder of the year: First, as go abortion rights, there also go a whole slew of other personal privacy rights we take for granted. Despite Alito’s denials, saying Roe and Casey were wrongly decided absolutely does also undermine the reasoning behind everything else from Loving to Griswold. How in the world can you say there is no “right” to an abortion enshrined in the Constitution so therefore it doesn’t exist, but then say “oh, sure, but the right to marry someone of another race is still somehow in there, though”? Two, people have to understand that Republicans are going to be pedal-to-the-metal to pass a federal abortion ban as soon as they have Congress and the Presidency again. No Republican pol should be given a moment’s peace by their constituency or the media until they answer whether or not they’d support a national abortion ban.
Unfortunately, I have little hope in either the ability of Democrats or the left to coordinate any kind of message, much less get the media to pay attention, or in low information voters to realize how serious things are.
EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo)
@PST: Of course Alito’s smirking. He’s getting away with another Big Lie. Bush v Gore had similar language, on the grounds that the circumstances were rare. Since then, it’s been cited in 100s of cases, we’ve had another president* selected by the electoral college, and an attempted coup over nonexistent voter fraud. Alito knows stare decisis will apply to this case too and loves it.
Omnes Omnibus
I’ll say again here what I said below. Vent and rage for a little while. Then lace up your damned boots for a long fight. There are more of us than there are of them and we are on the side of humanity and Justice. Let’s beat them.
NutmegAgain
This is the only community right now that feels safe and sane enough to read about this–really. 35 years or more ago, I did clinic defense and ran phone trees (no internet, no cell phones-imagine!) in a Northeast liberal state where the problem was getting into a clinic in one piece, getting past the religious woman-hating nut jobs outside. … and then they shot a young woman who was volunteering …
I’m lucky that my whole reproductive life was during the short period of guaranteed access to full health care for women. Yes, I had a very necessary abortion. I had a 2d term termination for medical reasons, which is a truly horrible experiences. For me (us, at the time) that was a very wanted pregnancy. All of which is to say, let’s always remember the complexity of the stories behind the need. It’s so important.
ian
@Geminid:
Not to kink shame, but you are one sick puppy.
RaflW
@Damien: they have some kind of expectation of a right to…what’s the word?
Hegemony?
VeniceRiley
Piracy, I think?
matt
This leak is going into the inevitable Stabbed in the Back Legend anti choice people will be making as the massive popular resistance to their oppression intensifies and they get knocked back on their heels and defeated
If only people could never be told about the law, that would be the best way to get popular acceptance.
germy
Cacti
Any institutional integrity of SCOTUS died when it issued the majority ruling in Bush v. Gore.
We’ve been pretending otherwise for too long now.
trollhattan
@ian: I’ll admit “Hew Hewitt” sounds pretty fun in the active verb form. “Let me hew Hewitt!” “No, I want to!”
debbie
@Geminid:
Doubt that will last very long.
brendancalling
@Elizabelle: I want that address as well as the address of the nearest White Castle or Krystal. No specific reason…
trollhattan
@germy: Truth. She said it all in just a minute. Bring the hammer, Senator, we need you more than ever.
matt
@RaflW: Operation Rescue goes into the memory hole.
germy
trollhattan
@RaflW: “Door #1 is to a white shoe law firm partner track. Door #2 is to a cement shoe law firm, Lake Michigan track.”
Omnes Omnibus
Also, what Magi_Jay says.
brendancalling
@FelonyGovt: We all gotta help. I’m organizing friends all over the country to open their guest rooms and offer rides to anyone who needs help getting to a free state for an abortion.
I have two wonderful nieces I love too much to abandon to the orcs.
lowtechcyclist
@RaflW:
I concur entirely. His real agenda is all about preserving the power of corporations and rich people, and of course gutting the Voting Rights Act is a big plus for that. Meanwhile, his votes on a handful of social issues let ‘savvy’ journalists portray him as a moderate, so it’s all good from his perspective.
trollhattan
Tell me something I don’t already know, Joe.
Fucker.
Cacti
Murkowski and Collins who are shocked, just shocked, that Federalist Society religious extremists would rule that way once they got to SCOTUS, can get fucked.
You arseholes knew exactly what you were voting for.
Geminid
@hueyplong: Why should I bet my money on Hewitt keeping his pledge? I did not say or imply that he would.
I only mentioned it because that was when he said that he and Tim Ryan had gone to high school together and Hewitt still considers Ryan a friend. Now, I’ve heard Hewitt lie before but he doesn’t lie all the time.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
TFG’s nominees were under oath when they declared Roe to be settled law and precedent, right?
debbie
@germy:
I was in tears listening to her, until that guy chimed in and I wanted to rip his throat out. ?
The Up and Up
I checked out a book that’s timely about the current affairs of the day, Elie Mystal’s recent, Allow Me to Retort. The read is wait listed/on hold in five of the six library systems where I have a card. The sixth, easy to pick up if you want to drive to the branch of the city that has a copy, where most rich and whites don’t want to go. The affluent neighborhood had it checked out. The decrepit, shuttered, and/or perpetually under renovation main branch had a copy available if you wanted to jump through hoops and go during certain hours. I went to the former, east side location.
My father will read anything put in front of him provided you give a backstory behind it. “Ok so lawyer, writes for a magazine … sounds good I guess.” Two chapters in thus far. He says he wants to go pantsless at venues that have the sign “No shoes, No shirt, No service” now. “But there’s nothing about pants?”
germy
@debbie:
What was the deal with him? I couldn’t make out what he was saying
PPCLI
@germy: Murkowski continued: ” That is, I no longer have confidence that the majority on the court understands that we Republicans are all on the same side. Gorsuch, Barrett and Kavanaugh all assured me that they would simply completely eviscerate Roe in a way that gave me wiggle room” with women voters, not overrule it outright and make me face hard questions.”
Medicine Man
The arrogance alone is staggering. Complaining about norms as they shred rights. Complaining about not being able to practice their radicalism under the cover of darkness. Complaining that voters may be informed of the coming judicial activism *before* an election, rather than after.
Get bent.
sab
@Damien: I think it is all projection, and that their side leaked it. This outrage about leaks is a smokescreen. Why would our side leak it? The final decision will be out long before November.
Mart
There aren’t three Trump Justices. Need to be spending way more time talking about the five Leonard Leo USSC justices, and the cult of the Federalist Society. Leo also has hand picked all the other recent “R” appointed federal judges. Fascist religious (Catholic) nutjobs who are actively working to destroy the administrative state. Several deemed not qualified by the ABA, including the creep who struck down the public transit mask mandate.
hueyplong
@Geminid: I’m not trying to extract a confession from you. Was just noting that Hewitt saying he won’t slime a Dem isn’t the same thing as it not actually happening and inviting you to agree.
Betty Cracker
@NutmegAgain:
So true — thanks for the reminder.
Women who have pregnancy complications will die because of the healthcare barriers these fanatics are setting up. Like that poor woman in Ireland whom the Catholic Church ensured was tortured to death instead of getting the healthcare she needed to save her life.
Cacti
The most harrowing part about the leaked draft is that Alito doesn’t hide the fact that he’s hoping to bench legislate away all social progress of the last 70 years.
His contempt for “the latter half of the 20th century” is there in black and white.
Redshift
@trollhattan:
This is entirely true, as long as you understand who he means by “we.”
But damn, I wish someone could make him answer “our only protection from what, Joe?”
debbie
@germy:
About wanting to dismember little babies. The usual wingnut bullshit.
eversor
@Bruce K in ATH-GR:
Repeat after me: “WE ARE IN A RELIGIOUS CIVIL WAR. LAWS DO NOT MATTER ANYMORE.”
That is the reality.
Gin & Tonic
Lviv, in western Ukraine, was just hit by a russian rocket/missile. Checked in with my best friend there, who said he heard it go over his house, but then tv stopped, so he’s not sure where exactly it hit. He’s trying to figure it out.
Alison Rose ???
@debbie: SAME
matt
@germy: this kayfabe bullshit is disgusting. how can people tolerate this nauseating fakery?
West of the Rockies
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well said. The gnashing of teeth and rending of garments has to happen, but then it’s time for proactive involvement.
Spanky
@Bruce K in ATH-GR: I don’t believe they are. It appears that it’s not a requirement. Hell, it’s not even a requirement that they appear before the JC.
Omnes Omnibus
@eversor: Bigotry has no place here. Taking advantage of people’s fear and anger to push your bigoted views is despicable. Have a nice day.
Alison Rose ???
@Gin & Tonic: Oh my lord. How absolutely terrifying.
VFX Lurker
I just put eversor in the pie filter. I need to focus on meaningful action like donating to Balloon-Juice fundraisers and writing Postcards to Voters, not performative BS.
Betty Cracker
@Gin & Tonic: Yikes! Glad he wasn’t hurt.
debbie
@Alison Rose ???:
I posted yesterday about not seeing any protesters when I drove by a nearby Planned Parenthood clinic yesterday. The office was open and cars were parked, but zero protesters. I’ve lived sort of near that office since 1995, and it was the first time there were no protesters. I can’t help but wonder whether that was a coincidence or not.
hueyplong
@Gin & Tonic: Man, that’s just shy of Poland. Was that the point?
Geminid
@hueyplong: Well, that I can agree to!
But I’m not going to predict either way. I’ll find out this fall how Hewitt treats the Ohio Senate race.
oldgold
So what if there was a leak? Why should the Supreme Court’s negotiations be in secret. As this decision proves, they are nothing but pols and worse in black robes. Their process deserves no special secrecy. In fact, it needs much more sunlight.
The majority claims they can’t find the right of privacy in the Constitution. That right seems much more apparent to me than the right they conferred upon themselves in Marbury v. Madison.
Matt McIrvin
@hueyplong: Before World War II, it was in Poland. Stanisław Lem, the Polish science-fiction writer, grew up there.
Ksmiami
@JPL: at first I read that to say that their house caught on fire… with them in it- pity… but one can hope
@Kay: I hope that none of these ppl can show their faces in public- may they be hunted and shamed until the end of their busybody cretinous lives
Alison Rose ???
@debbie: That is…interesting. TBH you’d think they would want to be there so they could dance around in the street celebrating. Fuckers.
Martin
@PST: Yes, just as Bush v Gore explicitly said to not use it as precedent, and then USSC used it as precedent in like 20 other cases.
Sorry, when a justices says precedent is bullshit in their opinion and then say that precedent should protect this from spilling to other areas in your footnotes, they can just fuck right off about all of it.
sparks
Although I think the purported outrage over the ‘leak’ of the draft opinion is a sideshow, it is pretty ironic that the Chief Justice is complaining about the privacy rights of the right wing Justices as they do their work to undermine the privacy rights of a woman to control her own body and life!
SiubhanDuinne
@Kay:
Those are sobering numbers. Pro-life, my ancient flabby white ass.
Martin
@Alison Rose ???: They didn’t want this. They say they want it, but they don’t want it. They know this energizes the left turnout. They also know that a lot of women who historically vote Republican won’t now because they secretly relied on abortion access. We know this. Now they’re going to worry that those women will secretly vote for Democrats. They don’t need many of them to switch to swing some districts.
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: Still thinking about you and yours and keeping you all in my thoughts.
Stay strong my neighbor to the south.
Ksmiami
@Cacti: burn it to the ground- put in something modern and less powerful
debbie
@debbie:
Thread:
Highlighting these from the thread:
Josie
@Martin: Right? The reason they say that is because they know that it’s legally indefensible. It’s a huge red flag.
VeniceRiley
@Gin & Tonic: They’re hitting TV towers all over the country en masse, I think.
eversor
It’s not bigotry to point out that we are in a religious holy war. Jan 6 was littered with Christian battle flags, prayers, crosses, and bible verse flags. This is very much a religious war. The support for Putin is religious. It cannot be ignored any longer.
Bupalos
@JPL: MUCH better attempt at values framing.
Cacti
In case there was any doubt where Alito’s heart is, he cites 17th century English Judge, Sir Matthew Hale’s views on abortion being “a great crime”.
During his time on the bench, Judge Sir Matthew also sentenced two women to die for practicing witchcraft.
Sure Lurkalot
@NutmegAgain: Thank you so much for sharing your story. I’ve shared a similar story many times here about my niece who had to have a late term abortion for medical reasons. It was devastating, but not as devastating as it would have been had the procedure not been available.
jonas
Most people, including a lot of Republicans, tell pollsters that they support some basic level of abortion rights. If we were governed by opinion polls, we’d be Sweden. The question is whether those people will change their voting habits based on that sentiment or if they’ll just shrug and vote with their tribe as usual. Like with gun control, clear majorities say one thing, but the politicians listen to people who vote and get out their checkbooks.
Josie
@eversor: It is bigotry because you are painting with way too broad a brush. There are many religious people who have stated unequivocally that women have a right to control their own bodies. You must be acquainted only with the conservative religious people. There are many others who are quite liberal.
RaflW
@germy: Lisa voted for Amy Conehead Barrett. The Senator from Alaska can get stuffed.
Ella in New Mexico
Fucking Ginny did it. While Clarence was passed out on Wild Turkey.
Likely because of rumors that Roberts, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have issues with an outright overturn of RvW and the fucking slippery slope that would create Constitutionally.
Omnes Omnibus
@eversor: Bull. Shit.
SiubhanDuinne
@trollhattan:
Fuck that fucking fucker. I am so fucking *DONE* with him.
Kathleen
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t consider her to be hyperbolic unlike myself but she is on fire today. I’ve followed her awhile and I’ve never seen her so upset.
Josie
@Omnes Omnibus: Your reply was much more concise and to the point than mine. :-)
Jim Appleton
@Kay: Beau of the Fifth Column has a video up just now reminding that historically 30-40% of abortions are for evangelicals and Catholics, some of whom are going to quietly vote in the direction of preserving the right they exercised.
Likely too little too late, and on a different end of the power spectrum than your example, similar need to stay quiet.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kathleen: She is very level headed.
oldgold
If Bush v. Gore was not bad enough, with this they should stop teaching Constitutional Law in the law schools. What is the point? Constitutional Law is simply what a majority of 9 says it is at any given point in time.
JPL
@Ella in New Mexico: In what room though? Understandably this is not a laughing matter, I just couldn’t resist. sorry
Someone with the keys to the front page, might want to post this
Home / Twitter
Immanentize
@Josie: isnt that just a way of saying the battle in this country is moving to it’s sectarian phase? It was bound to happen. When Rep. Green — a member of Congress! — starts publicly saying the Catholic Church is run by Satan, the new sectarian conflicts among Christian sects has begun in earnest.
And in such conflicts, other religions and their sects will undoubtedly be the first targets of all Xians who wish to draw such lines.
Kathleen
@Omnes Omnibus: And very measured and data driven in her commentary.
Bupalos
@Omnes Omnibus: Hear hear.
Also hope we can take a hint there and make sure that we start doing a little long term air-war work, fitting every particular battle (like reproductive rights) to a broader context of what kind of society we envision. Equality. Justice. Freedom.
One thing that feels sorely lacking in the reaction today is any recognition that this is encoding particular RELIGIOUS judgement into law and violates perhaps our oldest and most important founding principal. There should be a ton more attention brought to bear on the fundamentally sectarian nature of this decision.
JPL
@Immanentize: Don’t you teach Constitutional Law? good times.
Kay
@Jim Appleton:
As you can see, they’re super confident on the politics of this :)
debbie
Anyone for a little irony?
Ksmiami
Start targeting all the ppl behind the scenes – hound the Federalist Society Members- make Republicans’ lives miserable and if it comes down to them or us, let’s bring down the full weight of a pissed off majority onto these troglodytes-
Raven Onthill
He could resign. It would take real guts, but he would not go down in history alongside Roger Taney.
sukabi
Taking bets on if Alito or one of his aides leaked the doc….
A guy that justifies his “reasoning” by using a pro witch burning guy as his support is the kind of fanatic that wants everyone to know it was HIS decision….
RaflW
@Omnes Omnibus: She’s right about a lot. Including this: “Lawrence v Texas is next. If you claim to care, you vote in every election.”
At this point I more or less expect a judicial gish gallop. The goal will be a sort of shock and awe / overwhelm. The RW movement knows that they have only a few years till the huge preponderance of this nation is a tolerant polyglot. And they hate that with ever fiber of their privileged beings.
Alison Rose ???
@Martin:
But remember, those are by and large white women with the means and opportunity to get an abortion if they need one, whatever the laws in their state might be.
Redshift
@Josie: Religious wars have never meant all religious people are on one side against non-religious people, so it is not reasonable to insist that’s what the term means unless it is explained in detail.
We are absolutely in a situation where a faction of people are trying to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of us. It is not bigotry to say that, and it is not an attack on religious people in general.
Raven Onthill
@Betty Cracker: it nearly happened in blue-blue Washington State. “A Miscarrying Woman Nearly Died After a Catholic Hospital Sent Her Home Three Times.”
Kay
@sukabi:
It doesn’t make sense that it’s a liberal. It’s better for us in July.
Josie
@Immanentize: I’m not sure I understand your point. I was just saying that not all Christians think alike on political or personal beliefs, so Christianity should not be blamed for our problems. And I certainly don’t take anything Green says seriously. I don’t think she is a leader of any sort except among a small group of other idiots.
trollhattan
@Ella in New Mexico: I could see it, pawing through Clarence’s briefcase, then blaming it on The Usual Suspect. “That slut Anita Hill did it, and she still hasn’t apologized for what she did to Clarence.”
Immanentize
@Omnes Omnibus:
OO, I know what was said was a blunt brick, but I too see sectarian conflict on the way in this country. I worry about it.
When I was a law student, I interned in Atlanta for what was then the Southern Prisoners Defense Committee, which had been created by the SCLC to bail civil rights protesters out of southern jails. Anyhoo, I was talking with a Baptist acquaintance in Atlanta — I mentioned I was surprised that such a large fast growing city really didn’t have any real ethnic diversity (thinking little Italy or Chinatown in NY or Boston). His answer? “What do you mean? We have Methodists?” And he was not really joking.
Spanky
@debbie: It would not surprise me if it somehow came out that Ginni is now too much of a lightning rod for Clarence, and he’s wishing their relationship “moved to another phase”.
Josie
@Redshift: You are right. The commenter, however, was saying that all Christianity is responsible for what is happening and that is bigotry. I think you should be more specific in stating who is the enemy.
brendancalling
@eversor: I would tend to agree, but it’s a very specific kind of “Christian,” by which I mean “white evangelicals” and “Southern Baptists.” And it’s not bigotry to point out that, by and large, those two groups are made up primarily of authoritarians and bigots.
Plenty of sane Catholics, Episcopals, Presbyterians oppose this bullshit.
RaflW
@Bruce K in ATH-GR: Given that the only remedy is impeachment and conviction, their lies during confirmation will likely go thoroughly unchecked.
Cacti
@brendancalling: It’s not bigotry in the least to point out that the original fascist movement primarily consisted of right wing Roman Catholics.
Alison Rose ???
@eversor: Just because religion may the motivating factor on one side does not mean we are at war with that religion and all of its adherents. You are grossly oversimplifying things and I don’t know what your point is. Do you think these comments are going to convince anyone here who is a Christian to suddenly renounce their faith?
TerryTime
@Immanentize: Rep Greene’s panties were in a bunch because Catholic Charities met the buses Abbott sent from Texas. She’s angry they welcomed the migrants.
Omnes Omnibus
@Immanentize: This is not the only time that this commenter has shown up to promote religious bigotry.
On another note, I hope your travails are nearly over. Good thought for you and the Immp.
Immanentize
@JPL: Business is good.
jonas
I dunno. That same group of women is also really good at the “well, *my* abortion was an exception because x, y, or z, extenuating circumstances. All the others are just careless sluts trying to avoid responsibility…” excuse to continue voting Republican. If every woman who has had an abortion voted reliably pro-choice, we wouldn’t be here. The truth is that a lot of them don’t.
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize: Thanks, but you have plenty to worry about without adding me to the list.
Raven Onthill
@Alison Rose ???: they are going to try to take women’s right to vote away, make the 19th amendment as much of a dead letter as the 15th was throughout Jim Crow. It’s the only way this can stand.
Cacti
@Alison Rose ???: There has never been a religion to my knowledge that didn’t produce some population of fundamentalist adherents who wanted to use their “truth” as a cudgel to bludgeon everyone else into line.
To me, the “not all religion” argument is just another version of “No true Scotsman”.
Immanentize
@Omnes Omnibus: First, I did not know that about the poster which may reflect how out of the loop I have been.
Second, thank you. We are perhaps out of the darkest part of the woods, but many trees still surround us. Risk of death has been greatly diminished, but my risk of collapse from anxiety and exhaustion remains high. We are so glad to be back in the Boston area where my son’s original surgeon and Onc Doc are. That alone is a big psychic win.
WaterGirl
“Integrity,” he says, just before bursting into flames.
Joe from Lowell
@RaflW: Roberts was the lone Republican vote against repealing the ACA. When he was the median vote, he broke against the Republican majority on some major cases.
geg6
Integrity?!?!?!?!?!?! This mother fucker let that word out of his mother fucking shitty mouth?
They have no integrity. They have no morals. They have no fucking soldiers or police to make me listen to or obey a fucking word they have to say. If they want to test that, I think I’ll show them what the Second Amendment means to me.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: Then the issue is with the fundamentalist authoritarians whatever their belief system. FFS, it isn’t that complicated.
debbie
@Immanentize:
So happy to see things are heading in the right direction for both of you.
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: Misery does indeed seek (if not love) company. My ability to worry about you and yours is simply added onto my other worries, although not first.
Speaking of religion, and I am largely ignorant on this point outside of friends in both churches — how big a deal do you think the schism played in the Russian desire to attack/destroy Ukraine? I have read Kirill is a big player in the invasion.
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus: Branches of the same tree, counselor. That being magical beliefs.
JPL
@Immanentize: Water Girl has kindly kept us updated. LAO posted a little today, but several times last night. It is always nice to see voices of reason.
JPL
@Joe from Lowell: Speculation is that the draft was leaked to prevent Roberts from pulling one conservative to his more moderate position.
Soprano2
@Cacti: They appointed George W. president, you’ll never hear me say otherwise. Democracy completing the task was too messy for them to bear.
Immanentize
@JPL: I knew Water girl was gonna update, and I am grateful to her for that. I am sorry I missed LAO (and her beagle).
LAO
@Immanentize: I’m so sorry to hear about what you and Immp are going through. Sending you both every ounce of good will I can muster.
Cacti
@Soprano2: O’Connor had retirement plans, damn it. She couldn’t let the grubby voters get in the way of those.
Ksmiami
@Josie: actually; to some extent the fact that we give religious fairytales such high regard will ultimately destroy our country and it’s ability to progress. It’s one thing to allow ppl to “hobby” in religion but another to use it to set policy.
LAO
@Immanentize: lol. My timing is impeccable
geg6
@hueyplong:
Truth. Can’t think of a liberal who would.
Josie
@Ksmiami: I never intended my comments to support religious interference in governing. I am not religious and am not in favor of bringing Christianity or any other religion into politics. I simply don’t like broad statements that blame wide swaths of people for the evil that a minority supports. Too many times in this blog commenters make ridiculously broad statements that raise my hackles. I’ll give up now.
prostratedragon
@Cacti: Religion is not the only species of doctrine of which that is true.
Alison Rose ???
@Cacti: And there are shithead atheists too. Just because some people use religion as a weapon doesn’t mean religion itself is a problem to be done away with.
Omnes Omnibus
@Josie: I agree completely.
geg6
@trollhattan:
Fuck that mother fucker, too.
“We” = White males only
Feathers
@Immanentize: Green was talking to a group of right wing Catholics who agree with her on this. They truly believe that the Vatican has been taken over by the minions of Satan, with Pope Francis as the living proof. There has been a truly awful winding up of conservatism with Catholics and Protestants each discovering there is someone more hateful on the other side and therefore ratcheting up their own rhetoric and beliefs.
Of course, our side should be running ads on this, because a lot of Catholics realize that once the Protestants have won their holy war, they will promptly forget that the Catholics were ever allies and the flames of hate will start heading towards the newly anointed godless heathens.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@brendancalling: mine too. If I am out I will buy the bar a round of drinks. Can not happen soon enough to suit me.
eversor
@Josie:
This is no difference than broad brushing republicans, conservatives, men, whites, or what have you. So either we can say we have a conservative, white, male, repulican, CHRISTIAN problem or we cannot claim a problem with any group.
And the one thing we will not touch there was the root cause of getting rid of Roe V Wade, the Jericho Rally and it’s spawn Jan 6. We cannot avoid that anymore. And anybody who is avoiding that is either head in the ground or aiding the other side.
eversor
@Alison Rose ???:
Then we are not at war with Republicans, Trumpers, Conservatives, or any of the other groups at all. But the fact is we are. And we are willing to mention anything of it in broad strokes but the religious part. And until that changes we are lost and voting and other nonsense is wasting time.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Feathers: you are not wrong, some Protestants and some Evangelicals don’t consider Catholics real Christians. We are atheists but my husband grew up Catholic in Tennessee. He used to tell me Catholics were number three on the Klans hit parade..
mrmoshpotato
Integrity? Integrity? BWHAHA HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Oh John, you jokester!
Amen.
Cacti
@Feathers: Yep.
To evangelicals, the RCC is great scarlet whore of Babylon. If they succeed in bringing the non-religious to heel, next up will be the Papists, Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Adventists, etc.
WeimarGerman
@Elizabelle: yes we need 13!
Nuke the filibuster and do it now. Then add statehood for DC and PR, overturn Citizens United, pass John Lewis Voting Rights Act, …
geg6
@Omnes Omnibus:
It really is religious civil war though. Are you telling me it’s not a bunch of religious nuts trying to impose their stupid fucking cult beliefs on the rest of us?
I have suffered from these religious nuts more than you can possibly imagine. I’m done with that. They are getting called out all day every day by me.
RaflW
Just saw Obama’s statement. As I started to read it, a dark thought occurs: This leak is yet another RW op. Here’s how it works:
Leak the maximalist draft. Days and weeks of freakout by a decent share of the public. Meanwhile the RW noise machine focuses on the leak, so that they don’t say much that is useful as campaign rhetoric in the fall by Dems.
The actual opinion drops in June, and functionally guts Roe but ‘leaves it standing’ in a tattered by nominal way. GOP, with a pliant press, says “See, y’all over-reacted like mad. Roe is still there. Kav and the others didn’t lie about ‘settled law’ and the boomerang is whipped at 110 mph with a gleeful horserace press in full cahoots.
janesays
@Joe from Lowell: I wouldn’t give him that much credit. I realize that he is more amenable to siding with the liberal justices than any of the other wingnuts on the court (the world’s lowest bar), but he’s still ideologically a wingnut on most things.
Even on this ruling, word is that he was perfectly open to upholding the Mississippi law that would largely gut Roe, while technically still keeping the 1973 ruling (barely) intact.
In the most optimistic possible outcome, this ruling was always going to be to Roe what Shelby County was for the VRA.
Cacti
@RaflW: I absolutely believe that the leak came from the right wing of the court.
The only question is, for what malign purpose?
RaflW
@Joe from Lowell: Yes, the ones that didn’t directly interfere with the larger project. The ACA, I think Roberts as a politician accepted, helps a preponderance of white people and middle and even upper class people, and probably staves off for a generation the scourge of actual socialized medicine or even universal coverage.
But his work, taken as a whole, has been to advance a very capitalist, anti-rights framework. I’m unimpressed by his few show votes that buck RW doctrine.
geg6
@Redshift:
Exactly.
The religious butthurt showing up in this thread would be fucking hilarious if women weren’t going to die as a sacrifice to a religious cult.
Omnes Omnibus
@eversor: Souls to the polls? Moral Mondays? When I showed up for refugee rallies during the trump admin, why were there so many religious people there? What about the people of faith here on this blog? The one’s who are showing up, donating, voting, etc.? Are we at war with them? Me? I am agnostic and my old army dog tags even said “No Religious Preference.” I just find bigotry unacceptable even when it is ostensibly on our side. Perhaps even more so in that case. Do better.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy:
geg6
@Josie:
The two largest factions of Christianity are the forces behind this decision: Catholics and evangelicals. That’s just the way it is. If you’re a Christian, then you have to accept that your fellow believers are scum.
Omnes Omnibus
@geg6: I have no problem with anyone calling out religious nuts. Are you at war with the practicing Christians who comment here?
geg6
@brendancalling:
You must not know many Catholics who are still believers.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@FelonyGovt: I know what you mean (I turned 70 this year – sigh). I had two abortions in the late 70s and early 80s (did you know you can get pregnant with an IUD in place? and have given substantial donations to Planned Parenthood over many years, but stopped several years ago, when I decided my dollars were better directed on fighting climate change and survival of the natural world (Defenders of Wildlife etc.), plus donating to the good political work BJ promotes. Losing Roe will be horrendous, but it has become a younger person’s fight for me, since I can’t donate to everything.
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize:
I think it is a very significant factor. Kirill is a thug and a warmonger, and this is just one more sphere in which Ukrainians said to russians “We don’t want to be associated with you,” so they have to be punished.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Cacti: Totally agree.
geg6
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m personally at war with ALL religions. I consider them all poisonous. Christianity most of all, but they are all a plague. I don’t respect any of them. At all.
Josie
@geg6: You are not even taking time to read what I wrote. I am not religious; I am agnostic. Your anger is keeping you from hearing what some of us are saying. I am simply not in favor of pigeonholing people.
Alison Rose ???
@geg6: Terrific, thanks for telling me that I’m a plague. That’s a super great thing to say to Jews.
What the fuck is wrong with some of you.
Raven Onthill
Senator Warren at the protests, angry and grieving.
Immanentize
@LAO: LAO!
Immanentize
@LAO: It’s like I my words were an incantation that brought you into being….
Barbara
@Redshift:
Indeed. The assertion of religious freedom has increasingly taken the shape of a right to project one’s religion onto other parties — abortion being Exhibit A. I recently read of a teacher in Florida who claimed she was a victim of religious discrimination when she was disciplined for refusing to call a trans student by their preferred name — that name reflecting the preferred gender, and her disagreement with anyone asserting a right to be treated as any gender other than the one they were born into. Which is to say, she was asserting the right to treat a student differently because that student did not conform their conduct to the teacher’s religious views.
Imagine if a male Muslim teacher took the position that he would only call on female students if they were “covered” because his religion forbids him to interact with uncovered females. The right would go wild, but they don’t see that this is exactly what they are affirmatively calling religious freedom when it comes to LGBTQ individuals — the right to penalize other people if they don’t conform their conduct in keeping with their religious views.
I stopped going to church altogether because I was tired of being counted among the “faithful” for whom the “Church” asserted the right to speak on behalf of. Uh, no thanks.
However, my husband’s Protestant church doesn’t engage in political activity of any kind and tries to be a fount of goodness to people both within and outside its doors.
Anyway, you can be extremely bothered by giving people the right to hurt others in the name of their religious expression and belief without hating people for being religious.
RaflW
@geg6: If you can’t differentiate, that’s a shortcoming you’ll have to come to terms with. Not the least bit interested in helping ya with that sort of fundamentaist/absolutist write-off.
tldr: Pie filter.
Omnes Omnibus
Exactly.
geg6
@Alison Rose ???:
I don’t care what you believe. I care about what your religion, all religions, destroy and distort. If you want to follow that sort of thing, you go right ahead. No skin off my teeth. But I’ll be damned if I’m going to let religion get a pass on this when it’s the motivating force. They all suck.
geg6
@RaflW:
LOL.
Sorry, not sorry.
Omnes Omnibus
This is getting nasty. I am walking away.
lowtechcyclist
@Josie:
I’m one of those “many others who are quite liberal,” and I completely agree with eversor. Just because there are people who consider themselves Christians on both sides, doesn’t make it any less true.
That their ‘religion’ has basically become the usual collection of right-wing grievances under the banner of Christianity, doesn’t make it any less a religion in the general sense of the term. I regard their religion as fundamentally different one from my faith, even if they and I both call ourselves Christians, and I’m not offended by people calling them out for what they are; I’ve been doing so myself since the rise of the ‘religious right’ as a political force in the late 1970s. Does this mean I’m bigoted against myself? I’m rather perplexed by that notion.
The Thirty Years’ War was a religious war. Both sides called themselves Christians. Is it bigotry to say that the Thirty Years’ war was a religious war? Of course not, don’t be silly.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
Shorter John Roberts: “I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!”
LAO
@Immanentize: You’re extremely powerful — use your power wisely
eversor
@geg6:
Someone who doesn’t have their head in the sand!
lowtechcyclist
@geg6:
While I don’t share your sentiments, being a born-again Christian and all, I find them quite understandable.
What I don’t understand is why our friend Omnes doesn’t find this an even more egregious bit of bigotry than anything eversor said. (I don’t regard it as bigoted in the least, fwiw, just understandable given the world as it is and as it’s been.)
AM in NC
@FelonyGovt: I hear you. I’m about 8 years past child-bearing age and I have 2 sons. But my mom (who is dying of cancer) and I are planning on doing everything we can to fight this.
I won’t let younger women have fewer rights to their bodies than I had without fighting like hell. Hope you can muster some strength to join in, but I understand it can be hard after being beaten down for so long.
lowtechcyclist
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ever read Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address?
Omnes Omnibus
@lowtechcyclist: Hey, the person who prompted my involvement in this discussion said that we were in a fight with Christianity. Nothing was said to limit that. If you are cool with that, that’s your thing.
eversor
@lowtechcyclist:
cop outs are cheap, those who throw them won’t realize them, let them end their own values
eversor
@lowtechcyclist:
You aren’t and that’s that. Admitting what is what is
@lowtechcyclist:
eversor
@lowtechcyclist:
The answer is in the cross and a bible.
EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo)
@AM in NC: I’m in the throes of menopause as we speak. I feel the exact same way. Not a lot of girls in our family but no woman deserves this and what’s to come. I also hope I’m up for the fight.
Gvg
@Josie: it is a religious war. The fact that many Christians are pro choice doesn’t remove the fact that the motivation of most of the anti choice voters and leadership is their version of Christianity. Most religious wars I have studied are between factions of a religion, not different religions. The significance in this case is that we are dealing with fanatics. It is important to understand that.
i don’t know that it does any good to call it a religious war and I understand non fanatic Christian’s may not be comfortable acknowledging this, but it seems self evident to me that it is true, and a waste of time saying it isn’t.
The reason the founders put separation of church and state in the constitution was the wars between Catholic and various Protestants. Many of the first groups of colonists were fleeing things like the 30 years wars and other Christian against Christian wars. Those wars were much closer in time to them and they knew the real bloody history. The modern conservative is a historical fool, wanting to put religion back into schools and the like. If they got their wish, they would learn to regret it, but so would many innocents, so we have to save everyone.
Gvg
@geg6: Well, you are too far for me. I am an atheist, have been since I was very young, but I have known many religious people who were good and probably better for having religion. When I was a teenager, my father told me how many of his coworkers claimed to be very religious but total scum hypocrites. Adulterous mostly. He said that he viewed religion as a test, just like alcoholism or being born with a handicap. He said in his experience the results were about 50/50 on whether religion improved a person or made them worse. Perhaps he is cynical. I know he is religious, and it made him angry that others didn’t live their own words. I haven’t kept count, but I do know some really good religious people, both my parents and other random people I have known. I don’t forget that even now when some total bad examples have too much political power.
I am an atheist because I just never felt that there was anything supernatural to believe in. Not because of some reaction to religious people. I don’t tell other people what to feel about religion because I don’t want them telling me what to feel or believe.
karen marie
Hear fucking hear.
Alison Rose ???
@geg6: Pretty rich for YOU to whine about distorting things. Apparently it is impossible to get you to see that it is fucked up and bullshit to say that all of the hundreds of millions of people worldwide who have some kind of religion or belief system are all dangerous evil monsters who are the scum of the Earth and responsible for every bad thing. You want to live in that childish world of simplistic thinking, go right ahead, but don’t for one second think it makes you better than anyone else.
I don’t know why I came back to this thread but I’m not doing it again. I am not the fucking enemy because I believe in God. My belief has at times in my life been the only thing keeping me alive, so you can stuff it.
Ksmiami
Most sects of Judaism and Islam are pro-abortion btw – we are rn fighting dark forces of fundamentalist Christianity/Catholicism that threaten the foundation of our modern society… and while we may lose in the near term, the right cannot be allowed to win. Hmm yeah this is going to rip our nation apart
No One of Consequence
The brash nature of the discussion at this juncture, ill suits the assemblage. For your consideration: “Either we are All God’s Children, or None of Us are.”
For those of faith, or who know the humility of uncertainty, what is *your* certainty that one of the above statements *MUST* be true?
For those who lack faith, either from lack of extraordinary evidence to support extraordinary claims, or who are certain in their Metaphysical Conclusions: How certain are you that one of the above statements *MUST* be true?
Is it possible that our Human Understanding cannot yet sufficiently determine which?
Is it possible for you to be tolerant enough to live in a World where BOTH are true?
Compassion. Tolerance. Understanding.
The order isn’t as important as the existence, but it has been my sense that these three are related and often follow one another.
Peace,
-NOoC
NotoriousJRT
@FelonyGovt: if your gay daughter is married or wish to be in the future and / or live the life of a full citizen, you may want to fight. So it doesn’t impact you? That’s a lousy excuse to leave it to others, IMO.