I read this opinion on “losers’ logic” at TPM and immediately had to share it because I see similar reasoning all the fucking time all over the Dem-0-sphere for why this or that tactic won’t work, and too much of that can be self-defeating and demoralizing as hell:
I’m seeing a lot of commentators saying the bill that Democrats propose to codify Roe will rapidly be rejected by this Supreme Court. If it’s not accompanied by Court expansion there’s no point. While I appreciate that these remarks are proffered in good faith and quite possibly accurate as predictions, it’s still losers’ logic.
There are some technical questions about whether a more narrowly tailored or differently drafted law could be harder to strike down. There are other reforms besides expanding the Court that would end the corrupt majority’s stranglehold on public life. Some of them are quite possibly better. But these are tactical details for another conversation. The central issue is that you cannot self-deter. You can never be in a position where you say, “We’d do this thing but then the other side might do that other thing. So we’ll simply do nothing.”
It’s as simple as not negotiating against yourself. It goes beyond the specifics of any particular political question. Inaction drives demoralization; impotence is enervating for any political movement or party. You might as well make sad trombone your personal motto or party theme song.
Ten thousand amens to that. Yeah, it’s important to choose your battles wisely, but you also don’t want be a dithering General McClellan in a time that’s crying out for a decisive General Grant.
Open thread.
PS: Before someone shows up to Well Ackshully me, I am fully aware that McClellan was replaced with Burnside.
PPS: I find the prospect of defeat through inaction and indecision so terrifying because I witnessed it firsthand here in Florida. We had a state party that won within my memory. We had a larger-than-life Dem governor who gleefully curb-stomped Republican challengers (including Jeb!).
But the party lost its way after his death and fell into a pattern of self-defeating inaction and indecisiveness. Couldn’t quite figure out what it stood for. We haven’t won the governorship in this century. And look at the state now — politically, we’re basically Mississippi with a longer coastline
On The Road – Benw – New York Botanical Garden, April 2022
EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo)
So much this. 65% of us want Roe to stand. Fight like hell, lose, and make it crystal clear why we lost. That’s the only way change will happen.
Pete Mack
Never mind Grant. We need a Sherman.
Juju
Doing something, even if not ideal, is better than doing nothing at all.
Baud
Cynicism and contrarianism are free gifts to fascists.
That goes double for anyone who complains when this bill doesn’t pass because of the GOP + Manchin.
lowtechcyclist
Josh has been saying this in a number of different ways over the past week, and he’s absolutely right.
We’ve been having this very same discussion for years, only over filibuster repeal: it’s always “if we get rid of the filibuster, then the next time Republicans are in power, they’ll repeal everything we passed, and pass some more bad stuff of their own…”
Well, that’s the chance you take. But if you pass good stuff and the Republicans repeal it, then everybody knows who’s on which side. If you don’t pass anything at all, then it becomes muddled.
Those of us who pay attention to politics full-time may know what the score is, but we’re not typical. And it isn’t those far-lefty types with their “the Dems need to show me they deserve my vote” bullshit, but rather the people who only pay attention every now and then who need to be given a reason. There’s a lot more of those than there are of Jill Stein voters.
Also, there’s the chance that if you pass good stuff, the voters realize they like you better than the other guys, and they keep you in control. Could happen, you never know!
So yeah, codify Roe, and if the Bogus Scotus tosses it out, at least you’ve shown which side you’re on, and that you’ll fight. And once they toss it, you figure out what to do next, and fight that battle.
eclare
@lowtechcyclist: Absolutely this. Republicans have tried to repeal the ACA many times, including while Obama was president and would veto any repeal. Didn’t stop them, and it showed Republican voters they were fighting for them.
Democrats need to do the same.
Soprano2
I think the same thing happened in MO after Mel Carnahan’s death. Obama was competitive here in 2008; now, there are a supermajority of Republicans in both houses of the state lege. I firmly believe the 2010 election was the most important one of our lives, except we only knew that after it happened. It still resonates in our politics. We have a trigger law in MO that will make IUD’s and Plan B illegal as soon as Roe goes. I think most people in this state have no idea what’s coming.
Baud
I can’t wrap my head around this when it comes to the federal level. Nancy Pelosi’s House has passed several monumental bills that show what Dems stand for. Our problem is and always has been a few Dem filibuster holdouts in the Senate, along with our razor thin numbers there.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: And then the voters say Congress doesn’t do anything, so why bother.
(waves at Baud, welcome back)
John S.
@Betty
I grew up in Florida when Bob Graham and Lawton Chiles were dominant figures. Since then, we’ve had one asshole Republican after another pushing the state further and further to the right.
Next month, I am moving my family to Washington state after living here for 40 years. Politics wasn’t the primary factor, but it definitely influenced our decision.
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I shouldn’t be back yet. I tried to get out but you guys pulled me back in.
danielx
Birthday today and reborn yesterday – cardiac catheterization and placement of stent in right coronary artery which was 95% blocked. Feel like a new man, or reasonable approximation thereof.
Also one handed typing with left hand sux.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Balloon Juice is like the Mafia.
ETA: Good timing, you’ll enjoy tomorrow’s OTR.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: It’s not perfectly analogous, but I see rhymes sometimes. We had/have good Dems in FL too. But structural disadvantages (which do mirror the federal landscape to some extent), reliance on the same old consultants, moments of timidity when boldness was called for, etc., snowballed. Repubs leveraged their structural advantages to tilt the playing field to an impossible degree. I’m not saying the same will inevitably happen nationally; I’m saying we must not let it.
Baud
@danielx:
Happy birthday!
eclare
@danielx: Happy birthday and congrats on the successful surgery!
sab
@danielx: Catheters are amazing. Doctors boldly going where they couldn’t go before. I had a catheter procedure to fix an entirely different problem. Congenital heart defect I hadn’t known I had. But once fixed it has been amazing. I haven’t fainted in years. And I used to think occasional fainting was a normal part of life.
John S.
@Betty Cracker:
Florida turned into a game of “Who can be the biggest asshole but still squeak by with less than a 1% margin of victory by appealing to the rabid base”.
We went from Jeb! to Rick Scott to DeSantis in the span of 20 years, with only a brief interruption by Charlie Crist, who is now a Democrat.
It’s where Republicans perfected the concept of minority rule through rigging the game, working the refs and cheating. It all started with the Bushes.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
It’s always possible to do better. But I feel like our biggest problem is with our voting culture rather than messaging. Too divided into factions and too fickle to sustain a long hard fight. And I don’t know how to fix that.
UncleEbeneezer
@Baud: Marshall’s post (like so much of his work) is premised on the fact that if something hasn’t happened it must be due to some failure in Dem tactics or attitude. The reality is we have 48 votes to change the filibuster not the 50 that we need. That simple. But it’s always more fun and gets more clicks to write another Here’s What’s Wrong With Dems post.
sab
@John S.: I still think your biggest problem is letting those transplanted midwesterners vote. Make them prove they aren’t snowbirds. If they don’t spend summer in Florida then they shouldn’t be allowed to vote in Florida.
Baud
@UncleEbeneezer:
I really don’t follow pundits anymore. But in my experience, I agree there’s a pervasive and false inference that people make that if Dems aren’t immediately winning, it means they aren’t really fighting. And that inference is immensely damaging iMHO.
sab
I remember when I was a child in Volusia County. They had a big (for that time) grass/palmetto fire. Firetrucks roared in, then came screechimg to a halt at the town line. All the retirees on the other side yelled “why are you stopping?” Firemen yelled back “you voted down the bond issue. You voted to not have fire protection.”
gene108
@Pete Mack:
Sherman, though senior to Grant, agreed to be Grant’s subordinate because Sherman knew Grant had qualities he did not have.
Second, General Sherman was head of the Army, in the 1870’s, when the Plains Wars against Native Americans occurred. Sherman was never a liberal or progressive, in his outlook. He did what it took to win, whether against the Confederacy or Native Americans.
satby
@Baud: The problems are many, but one is that we need better citizens. People who pay attention to the news, people who make at least a minimum effort to keep informed, people who understand how our system of government works. The Republicans would have a much harder time succeeding if we had more engaged citizens.
sab
@gene108: Sherman was a fucking racist. Grant wasn’t.
ETA Yes I know he ( Grant) owned a slave. The slave was a wedding present from his in-laws, and Grant freed him and then kept him on as a wage earning employee.
satby
@UncleEbeneezer: Marshall’s point is that you put it to a vote and put the legislators on record, even when it won’t pass. Then the nays have to defend those votes. The Republicans wasted millions holding useless votes to overturn the ACA because they wanted a record that they personally voted against it for their rabid base.
Betty Cracker
@UncleEbeneezer: That’s not what he’s saying at all, and that’s not a fair characterization of Marshall’s attitude toward the party in general. I’m not going to reprint the entire post here, but he’s talking about ways to get and keep political power, not just over the course of a single election but long term.
gene108
@lowtechcyclist:
THIS ?????
I dare Republicans to try and repeal good legislation Democrats pass. They tried to repeal the ACA, in 2018, and it cost them the House.
Republican policies suck. They know this. If they run their policies to the fullest, it could bite them in the ass, like Gov. Brownback in Kansas failed policies that helped elect Democrats to state office.
Starfish
@danielx: I am glad that your surgery went well. I hope you have good pain management and heal quickly.
Baud
@satby:
That would be nice. But at a minimum, I wish we had citizens that could at least tell the difference in the general tenor of the two parties and make a choice as to which one better reflects their values. What we tend to see, at least at the margins where elections are won and lost, are a number of citizens who look for and find imperfections that turn into excuses for not making a decision, an attitude fostered by a sophisticated and well funded propaganda system.
satby
@danielx: Belated Happy Birthday and congratulations on your successful surgery. That’s a nice present to get.
gene108
@sab:
Whether or not Grant should be dinged for marrying into a slave holding family, as President he did more for protecting African American’s civil rights than his successors until Truman integrated the military.
Baud
@gene108:
Also, Louisiana has a Dem governor for this reason.
Starfish
@Baud: Is it that voters are fickle, or is it that unexpected outcomes lead to more voter disenfranchisement efforts?
The way that some states restrict absentee ballots and mail-in ballots is something! Voting by mail would solve all the “Oh no, we ‘accidentally’ sent you an insufficient number of half broken voting machines.”
gene108
@danielx:
Happy Birthday!!! ????? ??????
Glad the surgery went well. It’s a relief, when a health issue gets fixed.
sab
@gene108: You think my comment was criticizing Grant? I need to improve my communication skills.
satby
@Baud: No disagreement from me. I’ve long maintained that the propaganda in this country has been poisonous.
But in the end, the people consuming it know on some level that a lot of it is garbage. They make a choice, even when it alienates family and friends.
Brachiator
@danielx:
Great news. Here’s wishing you the best as you recover.
Baud
@Starfish:
Any voter disenfranchisement is bad, but I don’t think it has a greater effect on election outcomes than voters’ attitudes towards the importance of the election process.
SFAW
@Baud:
Not sure why I thought this, but I thought you were taller.
SFAW
@satby:
In a rational country, with a functional Press, that’s true. In America, not so much.
To be clear, I agree that things have to be put to a vote, even the ones we know we’re going to lose. I’m just skeptical that any Rethug will be made to defend his/her vote.
Elizabelle
Mississippi with a longer coastline is right. And an evil governor, literally evil.
I agree. Democrats should fight for good policies, and explain them, too. Briefly as possible
I so hope the political environment will change, to our benefit, with the twin blows of the fall of Roe v. Wade AND the January 6th hearings. Both will really get (sporadic) voters’ attention, and the attention of younger and newer voters. Also think we can collect some votes from independents and (former) Republicans.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Incidentally, there is a now a rumor that Kavanaugh is going to cave and vote to uphold Roe. Relive it when I see it, but it figures it would be the worthless drunk who does. Kavanaugh probably is terrified they will toss him from the country club.
Kay
@gene108:
Why are we even talking about it? They knew the decision would drop in June or July. It’s May. Why are they scrambling to respond? We’ll now have a three month discussion on how they should respond, risks/benefits, base fracturing and milling around, rudderless, attempting to protest because they don’t know what else to do, and then getting immediately scolded for protesting.
Plan it and roll it out the day the decision drops. It’s ready to go so if it leaks a month early they’re ready to go. “We’ll vote on THIS legislation and immediately enact THESE executive actions”.
The indecision and poor planning drives the base fractures. It’s the vacuum in which they occur. Close the gap.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
That’s because Dem voters demand an impossibility; 1/2 Jesus 1/2 War Criminal General Sherman.
SFAW
@Baud:
I disagree to some extent. Florida was lost in 2000 in no small part due to Jebbie and his honey (i.e., Harris) disenfranchising tens of thousands of ex-cons (if memory serves) and persons with names who sound like the ex-cons’. Interestingly — I’m sure it was just a coincidence — most of those ex-cons were Black.
And, in general, in many states it doesn’t take cutting the voter rolls of any given Dem-leaning group by 30 percent to swing the results to the Partei of Fascists.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Here is an actual General Sherman quote, the kind of shit those childish mems leave out.
“But my dear sirs when Peace does come, you may call on me for any thing-Then I will share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter.”
The people Sherman is addressing is the Confederates.
Starfish
@Baud: Some of the voter attitudes towards the process are due to the level of disenfranchisement.
If you are in an area that is run by the stupidest politicians, you don’t vote because all politicians are stupid and crooked. That leads to the self-fulfilling prophecy of only the people who want the stupid and crooked politicians vote.
To hear all of you tell it, everyone has been voting correctly since they were able to.
My parent, an immigrant, actively discouraged me from voting. She did not have her citizenship or the right to vote and was concerned that I would be called to jury duty and wanted me to focus on my studies instead.
Acting that people are just not voting because they don’t feel like it takes for granted that the population of Balloon Juice tends to be predominantly older folks in stable housing who do not have to re-register to vote all the time.
Elizabelle
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: re your language: in the event Kavanaugh does vote to uphold: why couldn’t we give him credit for peeking out from the petri dish, and seeing the shitshow that would result from overturning Roe? Among other items, confirming the illegitimacy of the Supreme Court, the career pinnacle he sought for years?
Why call him a drunk and other derogatory terms, if — as you posit — he votes our way? To me, that would be a GOOD thing.
SFAW
@Betty Cracker:
By the way, I can never remember — is it OK to like Josh Marshall? I know LGM is considered blogona non grata here, as is Kos, but I can never remember if we’re supposed to hate (or at least look down on) Josh/TPM.
[Absolutely not saying it’s you, Betty; it’s just that too often (for my taste) certain blogs are trashed by some of the commenters here.]
Dorothy A. Winsor
@danielx: Yay for you! The stent is a miracle of modern medicine.
TerryTime
@Elizabelle: the rumor is upholding a 15 week ban, not the complete ban. It still eviscerates Roe.
Geminid
Ahhh, Grant!
Chris T.
@sab:
Patent ovale foramen?
(Spouse has a-fib and I think they’re going to need to do ablation at some point. But this doesn’t result in fainting, usually.)
Starfish
@SFAW: I started reading LGM because the commentors here liked it so much.
Kay
The Biden Administration scolding the protestors was a real kick in the gut to me. They couldn’t resist hitting their own supporters? Just take a gratuitious shot at them? It didn’t change a thing of course, other than demoralizing the people who vote for them. Republicans went ahead with the pre planned narrative anyway, exactly as if there had been no response. I guess we’re going to smother any grass roots energy in the crib and engage in three months of dithering on how to respond to an event that every single one of them knew would occur.
Couldn’t disagree more with the idea that our voters are the problem. The best thing about Democrats are their voters and activists. They are the one and only reason I am still around. I feel a much greater connection and solidarity with some 20 year standing on the sidewalk outside the gates with a sign wondering where her rights went than anyone inside the gates. I’m with her.
Elizabelle
@SFAW: And never forget the Palm Beach butterfly ballot, designed by a Democratic Supervisor of Elections, Theresa LePore. Thousands of intended Gore votes went to Pat Buchanan.
Without the butterfly ballot, neither Bush could have gotten close enough to steal.
A lot of people forget that crucial fact, and it interferes with the dramatic MSM narrative.
From a Stanford U paper on the subject:
Starfish
@Kay: Passing extra-security for the justices out of the Senate when much lower officials are experiencing greater threats was something.
If they want to protect some officials, they need extra security for every official in charge of voting for each state as the “Big Lie” garbage rolls on.
Brachiator
Let me say at the jump that I agree that we should try to codify Roe, pack the Court and do whatever else can be done to protect reproductive rights.
But I disagree that talking frankly about the issues, including rants, fears and frustrations must be avoided because it will be demoralizing or self-defeating. I recognize that some specific people strongly react to certain lines of argument, but I certainly have not seen Democrats largely throw up their arms and surrender.
I DO see people volunteering, donating their time and money, coming up with innovative ways of bringing the fight and voting when the times come. Didn’t we win in 2020? Didn’t even third party strays and others join the cause and help present a unified front?
We are all doing what we can. And some who voice the greatest doubts may turn out to be among the strongest fighters.
Elizabelle
@TerryTime: We will see if the rumor is true or not. Lotta rumor-mongering.
I see your smartphone does the same thing, with inserting the 1. in a response.
SFAW
@Elizabelle:
Yeah, I remember.
Baud
@Kay:
Not talking about base voters. I’m talking about the marginal voters we need to win elections.
Starfish
@Brachiator: A number of people left when the Balloon Juice commenters were at their most fearful and angry.
SFAW
@Starfish:
Good. I should have clarified that LGM-hate is not universal here, but is frequent enough to be tiring/tiresome.
Kay
You all know this. You’ve all run a group of some kind, managed something, been in front of a group of people who were trying to do something.
What happens when you give them no direction at all and create yawning gaps of time where there’s no plan? Do they fracture or cohere?
Elizabelle
@SFAW: I think a lot of people don’t, though, and it bears remembering. Makes the Supreme Court decision all the worse.
Butter Emails!
I think our biggest problem is that despite its issues the national level Democratic Party is probably the least broken thing in this situation.
1. The electorate is uninformed where it isn’t misinformed regarding all things political which makes them ripe targets for what should be easily dismissable BS. They also apparently have their memories wiped clean of everything but BS every 6 months. Hence, Republicans and Democrats are equally a threat to Democracy and Republicans are far better on national security and the economy.
2. Structurally. We need to get a sizable majority of votes just to get a tie and that’s before gerrymandering.
3. The Media. Highly responsible for item one. Would literally both sides while Republicans executed them on live TV.
4. Our base. Atomized. Significant portions are undependable voters. Many expect instant gratification on their issues despite roadblocks and don’t give credit for trying, holding actions, signalling or incremental gains.
5. This is reinforced by Democrats needing to actively create and build something in most cases while Republicans need only destroy or obstruct which are easier.
6. It’s further reinforced by the Republican base being all about optics and performance now.
7. Our activists – actively tear down Democrats due their imperfections, their policies for their insufficiencies and their successes for their flaws. Compare to the Republican side that rabidly promotes any attempt or gain or lack of virtue signal.
8. Our donors. They have rich assholes willing to sink 10s or 100s of millions over decades to get to a desired end. We depend on fickle small donors as the wealthy who would align with us seem to in large extent avoid political giving.
Betty Cracker
@SFAW: I don’t always agree with Marshall’s commentary, but IMO, his site is consistently pretty good (except for the contributions of J. Judis). I have no idea why there’s so much hostility towards LGM, which I read occasionally and enjoy. I don’t look at DKos often enough to have an opinion on it.
Baud
@Starfish:
There are lots of reasons people don’t vote. A lot of people’s day-to-day isn’t perceptibly affected that much by politics. Hell, my life hasn’t been perceptibly affected that much by politics. There’s very little you can do to reach people who are not interested at all.
Baud
@Starfish:
Yesterday?
Kay
@Baud:
The only reason I’m still at it is ordinary Democrats. The 20 year old is why I do this. I want her to have the same rights I had. The motivation is NOT protecting leadership. It never has been. No one will ever be motivated by that. The motivation is solidarity with like minded people. That’s the glue. Leadership to me is valuable only and to the extent that they help her get where she wants to go. She’s the thing.
lowtechcyclist
Don’t know if someone mentioned this in an earlier thread, but Susan Collins found the following message scrawled in chalk on her sidewalk in Bangor:
And she called the police about it.
Nothing obscene, nothing threatening, just a message urging her to vote a certain way.
In chalk, on a sidewalk. It’ll wash out in the next rain, or she can just freakin’ hose it off if it bothers her.
“Defacement of public property.” Sidewalk chalk. Ain’t enough rolleyes.
Baud
@Kay:
I’m in it because I’m opposed to fascism.
Starfish
@Baud: The reason I am so focused on voting and disenfranchisement is because I live in a very permissive state, and I grew up in one that was the opposite.
The number of disenfranchising crimes that take away your right to vote forever in Mississippi includes timber larceny. I am not sure exactly how much timber larceny was going on that this became a forever disenfranchising crime.
A number of the efforts in the South were about trying to reduce the number of disenfranchising crimes, making it easier to get your right to vote back, etc. It is boring and effective stuff, but it is much more fun to yell at some 21 yo who thinks he is smart by saying “both sides are the same.”
Geminid
@Butter Emails!: I think in point (7) your criticism of “our activists” is only applicable to a small subset among Democratic activists. These particular people may claim they represent the activist base but that’s just their framing. And some of them are not actually Democrats anyway.
Elizabelle
@Butter Emails!: Good comment.
@Betty Cracker: re LGM: they can go doom and gloom like nowhere else. Which is demoralizing, and I am not sure the most hysterical of their predictions or observations ever get borne out by subsequent events.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@sab: I do wonder how many of them are voting in two states. With all the Republicans busted for fraud in 2020, i do think we are missing an opportunity to legislate better cooperation beween states to prevent that. I also would favor a free national id. It would make several things easier.
Starfish
@Baud: I was so sad when you were gone. You brought a levity that this place really needed, and I would have written sad songs about it every day if I had any musical talent at all.
Eunicecycle
@Elizabelle: I was hoping he (Kavanaugh) would see the light because he has young daughters. Would he want them to have to carry their rapist’s baby? Or die from an ectopic pregnancy?
DonnaK
@satby: I’m glad you said “Belated Happy Birthday.” “Happy Belated Birthday” drives me batty, as is it the greeting that is belated, not the birthday.
Baud
@Starfish:
Most Southern Democrats are black. They do the important work that’s boring and effective and doesn’t get a lot of attention.
@Starfish:
It’s not fun, but it is necessary. That 21 yo is basically lying in support of fascists. I have a rule: If it’s offensive if Chuck Todd says it, it’s offensive when someone on Twitter says it.
We always talk about Dems pushing back harder on right-wing messaging, then then we get weak in the knees when we are asked to push back on attacks that come from another direction. I believe we will always sound incoherent to voters unless we are willing to defend ourselves consistently.
Elizabelle
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I have been wondering about that one, myself.
Baud
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
@Elizabelle:
Me three.
debbie
Do the filibuster already, Chuck. If you don’t, Mitch will. Face reality.
Kay
I don’t accept lectures from people who should be in prison. Would be in prison if they hadn’t have been protected.
Starfish
@Baud: The 21 is not lying, he is just dumb and repeating something he heard. I think I was this way about Gore v. Bush. But I was too stupid to figure out how to vote for Nader so to my credit, I did not vote for Nader in that election because I could not figure out how to vote absentee.
debbie
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
When they’re caught, the MAGAts say they were testing the system. Because of course.
Geminid
@debbie: I don’t think Schumer has the votes to kill the filibuster.
Eunicecycle
@Elizabelle: and didn’t that same county have a weird design that probably caused Scott to be elected Senator? I think Nelson was listed at the bottom of the ballot, after a long paragraph of instructions. Then Scott was at the top, against all best practices for ballot design. I believe this was done by Democrats too! And there was an undercount for Senator there, meaning people skipped voting for Senator when they didn’t see Nelson’s name.ETA: It was Broward county. My bad.
Elizabelle
@Eunicecycle: Had not heard that that problem struck twice. Ouch.
Baud
@Starfish:
Didn’t we debate that with MSM coverage of Trump? The NYT and others said it wasn’t a “lie” if the speaker believed it to be true. We disagreed, I thought.
A lot of the Qanon and MAGA folks lie because they believe the propaganda they hear to be true.
To be fair, the only reason “both parties are the same” is not a complete lie is because there do share certain things in common, like, for example, neither party wants to nationalize all U.S. corporations. But for all practical contexts, the statement is a lie, and one IMHO that has done immense damage to the country.
debbie
I’m a little unhappy with Tim Ryan’s latest ad. In it, he blames his own party for shipping jobs overseas. From the transcript:
Huh?
Baud
@debbie:
Trying to get lefty voters to come out?
Eunicecycle
@lowtechcyclist: good God, what an overreaction. And taking up police time over that.
Elizabelle
@Baud: In my experience, the “both sides are the same” comes a lot from the far left, which is perpetually disappointed, and has the ears and eyes of the young, until they wise up.
Otherwise: Media, which won’t call out outright lying and norm-breaking by GOP.
And the GOP, which is delighted to claim support for Democratic policies. And then: bait and switch. Suckers.
Starfish
@Baud: QAnon and MAGA folks are more committed to their brain worms than younger folks. When I was making calls for the Democrats, we had a list that included some independents (who has probably voted for Democrats in the past.) Some young man was trying to troll me by telling me he was not a Democrat and asking me why he was on the list. I asked him, “You are not voting for Trump, are you?” and he agreed that he was not.
Kropacetic
@debbie: Our trade deals should have had more protections for our workers and probably not have been negotiated with nations that still allow worker conditions we decided were abhorrent a century ago. Maybe not the best way to express that, but…
debbie
@Kropacetic:
Accurate or not, I just don’t like the perception that creates.
ETA: It was the businesses who sent the jobs overseas, not the Democrats.
zhena gogolia
@Butter Emails!: Excellent comment.
lowtechcyclist
Nancy Unsmash:
NO, dammit! We don’t need a strong Republican Party, we HAVE one, and that’s the problem!
This party isn’t going to be saved, rescued, or improve on its own. It can only be defeated.
Starfish
Does everyone remember the other day when the discussion about reproductive rights happened, and some folks came down on the side of the TERFs?
There is a funny ophthalmologist on Twitter, and he did that same fight for unionization in the medical field.
Geminid
@Baud: Maybe going after white working class voters. Ohio seems to be one state where Democrats need to win a bigger share of this demographic than Biden carried in 2020. Also, there still are some winnable Independents and they like hearing stuff like this.
Ryan seems generally to be a strong Democrat so I don’t think his base will hold this particular statement against him come November.
Baud
@Starfish:
Absolutely. But the propagandists only need to peel off a fraction of the younger folks to be successful in their goal of hurting Democrats.
I think we just need to be clear about what our position is and what we going to try to achieve and accept the fact that some people simply will refuse to join us in our fight. I don’t believe that being reticent out of sympathy to people who have been misled works to our advantage. YMMV.
Kropacetic
Our elected officials made the rules that allowed, even created incentives for companies to do that. Democrats weren’t alone in this at all, they just happened to be at the forefront when it passed.
This is why I don’t understand a lot of the desire for bipartisanship, most of our worst policies have been bipartisan. Only Ds seem to notice the problems, yet only the Ds ever seem to pay a price. Probably because the D voters notice the problems too.
Eunicecycle
@Kay: ugh he was our bishop in the Youngstown diocese before he went to RI. He’s a piece of work. He accused our Catholic Charities in our county of promoting abortion, a bald faced lie. He cut off a great deal of funding which weakened them so badly. I am pro-choice btw but this angered me so much because they do a lot of good. He also preached the only sermon I’ve ever heard that I almost got up and left. I could rant on but never mind!
debbie
@lowtechcyclist:
I don’t disagree with her. Remember when she mentioned Ronald Reagan and was surprised that the Republicans had zero reaction?
Baud
@Geminid:
I don’t hold campaign strategy against any Democratic candidate, especially one running in a red state. A Dem would have to be pretty awful in policy or character for me to root against them winning.
lowtechcyclist
@UncleEbeneezer:
He knows that. He’s specifically said that he’s talking about what the Dems should say they will do next year if they hold the House and pick up N Senators, for whatever N is necessary to get to 50 for a filibuster carve-out.
He’s not saying we should have done X, Y, or Z in this Congress, because he’s as aware of Manchin and Sinema as we are.
He’s saying the Dems should make a clear and specific commitment about what they’ll do if they get enough Senators to overcome Manchin, Sinema, and anyone else hiding behind them. And then follow through on it if they get those Senators and hold the House.
Soprano2
@Betty Cracker: I can tell you what happened in Missouri – the voters passed term limits. Lots of Democrats in more rural areas were term limited out and replaced with Republicans. The Republicans got it on the ballot and convinced people to vote for it. It makes me crazy, because they’re not needed – it’s the only job where people think it’s a good idea to fire people when they get some experience! Somehow they think the new people will be better, but what happens is lobbyists and bureaucrats end up having way more influence than they should.
eclare
@Baud: Just win, baby
eclare
@Soprano2: I always like to say that we have term limits, they’re called elections.
Soprano2
@Kay: I agree, it’s inexcusable that they didn’t have a plan ready to go. They knew the least worst outcome was still really, really bad. Why are they dithering now?
Brachiator
@SFAW:
Funny thing is, I have never really read LGM, so I have never had any reason to hate it. I have just never had that much time to check into many other opinion sites.
Not a huge follower of Twitter feeds either. I guess I am selectively old fashioned when it comes to media.
Soprano2
@eclare: That’s what I say too!!!!
Kay
@Eunicecycle:
Someone should tell these people they can’t save their own rotten souls by sacrificing women.
No matter how many women he puts at risk or in prison he’ll still have to answer for those 1,000 children he harmed in Pittsburgh. I’m not his get into Heaven card. I suggest he sacrifice something himself to atone- isn’t that how it works?
VOR
And nobody knows about them. When Mitch was running the Senate, the House passed all sorts of good bills and the Gravedigger of Democracy simply never scheduled them for a vote. They died on his desk and nobody knew about it, because the Democrats didn’t make a stink about it. The Media won’t do it for us.
The ACA is a good example. How many times did the Republicans try to repeal it? 50? And almost every effort was doomed, but they kept trying. Their base knew what they stood for and that they would fight for it, no matter how stupid it was. Of course, they had the advantage of being fundamentally uninterested in actual legislation.
Soprano2
I agree, it was an own goal. Those people are engaging in their constitutionally protected right to protest in a peaceful manner, on the public right-of-way. That’s what the administration should have said. That they panicked so quickly (good grief, Susan Collins called the police because someone wrote a pro-choice message in chalk on the sidewalk!!) tells you they know how unpopular this really is. I’ve seen a lot of reminders on Twitter that the Supreme Court said it was OK for the Westboro Baptist “church” to do their horrible protests at funerals, and that abortion clinics had no right to be protected from vicious, dangerous protesters. It’s interesting how quickly everyone swivels when “important” people feel the threat.
Ksmiami
@lowtechcyclist: and we won’t let them out of their homes. Write your Senators and demand they pull back the added security they passed… if privacy isn’t good enough for 160 million ppl, it’s not good enough for the atrocious 6.
Soprano2
@Elizabelle: You do not want to get me started on the complete shitshow that was the election in Florida in 2000. Yes, that butterfly ballot fucked us over but good. Among other things in that state….
Kay
@Soprano2:
If they don’t want the base to fracture they are going to have to tell them where they’re going.
I genuinely don’t get it. No plan at all? Just…none? Okay then, you’re getting whatever formless mess the base comes up with because you offered them no alternative. But don’t blame them when they go off in fifty different directions. It would be the same with a group of 20 people or a group of 20 million. The vaccuum at the top creates the gap for the fracture.
They have a unifying base issue and a base that is desperate to be led. The problem is at the top.
Picture the alternative. The opinion drops or leaks and Biden and House and Senate leadership announce the plan. Not “float” the plan or “debate” the plan. That’s all done prior. Declare it. Base still milling around grumbling or do they now have something or someone to follow?
SFAW
@Betty Cracker:
Your sentiments and mine are pretty much the same about all of those things.
Brachiator
@Starfish:
Yeah, and I am sorry about that. There are some folks whose opinions I greatly respect who have left or who don’t post as much.
These are tough times and probably about to get tougher. And there are a lot of folks with tremendous insights who should be encouraged to speak up. Obviously you don’t want deep hostility or deliberate insults, but we should be able to accept some fear and even anger when it is part of open and honest discussion.
Well, that’s my half cents worth.
Ksmiami
@Kay: I am getting sick of this deer in the headlights shit. The GOP is fucking insane and evil and our so called party leaders need to fight them.
Ksmiami
@Kay: agree with you a million times- what the fuck is Biden afraid of?
tom
@danielx: happy birthday and congrats on no more blockage.
I am the owner of two stents and am extremely grateful for them.
Soprano2
@Baud: I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard from “normies” “They’re all the same, why should I vote anyway? They’re all corrupt, and none of them care about the people.” I think lots of people have always felt this way. When you’ve always had the right to vote, you take it for granted and think it’s not that important because other people will take care of that for you.
Kay
@Soprano2:
Exra points for the timing. Scolding young women and telling them to sit down. Beautiful.
It would be one thing is they had some coherent, unified PREPARED response of their own to channel that energy, but they also won’t do that. No plan, and you also can’t come up with your own because yours makes us uncomfortable and 24 hours of slight discomfort is unbearable.
They wouldn’t have been at the houses if someone in the Democratic Party apparatus had gotten off their ass and given them a different rally point. Organized something. No one did, so they did it themselves. If you’re not going to channel and direct and organize anything then expect chaos. That’s how it works.
sdhays
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: You don’t mean to say there has been another leak in the sacred deliberations of our nation’s most esteemed judicial body?!?1! Horrors!
I need to get some pearls to clutch.
NotMax
@danielx
Happy birthday to you.
Soprano2
This is not emphasized nearly enough. This was happening all through the 1980’s, before NAFTA was even passed. In fact, NAFTA was a reaction to this phenomenon, to try to get some kind of agreement and help for the workers whose jobs were lost. All of that was lost in the opposition to the bill, though, and now it’s become an article of faith for a lot of people that our job losses overseas started when NAFTA allowed companies to ship them there. The government hasn’t sent one job overseas!!!
Kay
@Ksmiami:
They think the base will come out in the midterms regardless, which is the mistake they have made every midterm with a D President for the last 20 years.
They can’t stop making this mistake. They seriously compare 2022 to 2018. Except Trump was President in 2018 and there was enormous anti-Trump energy, which they benefitted from but never seemed to figure out that it didn’t come from them.
I thought “well, they have a base issue now and all they have to do is channel it- it can’t hurt and it might help and it will shore up younger voters long term- a good investment”. Lemons, lemonaide. Nope. They’re going with deficit reduction as the message. Do they know how dispiriting this is to their strong supporters? How could they not know? I vote for these people and volunteer and serve in their organizations and I wanted to tell Joe Biden to sit down and shut up. If you can’t help say nothing. Just resist the urge to apologize. Stop being ashamed of them. They’re not shameful. They deserve better.
lowtechcyclist
@Elizabelle:
And that was just one of many. The effect of the butterfly ballot was a hot topic at the 2001 Joint Statistical Meetings. (I’m not being facetious.)
EthylEster
Re: gleeful curb-stomping
Uh, no thanks. Do not want.
Bill
@Baud: is that why dems haven’t codified roe for 50 years or why Obama said it would be the first thing he would sign after taking office but somehow never got around to it ?
Ksmiami
@Kay: we are going to have to go all in on voicing our displeasure with the leadership- I’m so fucking sick of these wimps. I swear sometimes I think most of the problems with the Democratic Party come from the fact that only a few of them played team contact sports jfc
Eunicecycle
@Soprano2: my dad worked for a company that was sending jobs to Haiti in the early 80s. He had to make many trips down there to set it up, etc. He justified it by saying it helped the economy down there, but I said what about the jobs you’re taking from Columbus? He didn’t really have an answer but I was just a smart-assed kid. ETA: I think the whole thing was shut down when Baby Doc was overthrown. Oh well.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Whoa whoa whoa — deficit reduction? For real? OMFG. No.
Immanentize
@Bill: did you know that prior Congresses “codified” the end of the Miranda holding regarding the right to remain silent in police custody?
And if you are scratching your (whatever) about how this is an excellent response to your comment to Baud, scratch harder.
Baud
@Bill:
Dems haven’t codified Roe because there were other more pressing legislative priorities in the grand total of 8 years they controlled the government over the last 50 years before now.
I don’t recall Obama talking about codifying Roe as the first thing he would do.
Immanentize
@Bill: did you know that prior Congresses “codified” the end of the Miranda holding regarding the right to remain silent in police custody?
And if you are scratching your (whatever) about how this is an excellent response to your comment to Baud, scratch harder.
Immanentize
@Baud: I agree. Also codifying a Constitutional right (or trying to undo a constitutional right) by federal legislation really isn’t a thing.
Also, looking back on Obama’s presidency, how long did he have a supermajority in the Senate? Four months?
lowtechcyclist
All of a sudden I want to get really, really drunk.
Baud
@Immanentize:
It’s ridiculous. If we know one thing about Democrats, it’s that, aside from a few stragglers, they support abortion rights. Unfortunately, the stragglers are the deciding votes right now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: also, one of “Obama’s” sixty votes* was Mark Pryor, who believes Bishop Usher correctly calculated the age of the planet. Also Ben Nelson, who insisted that Bart Stupak’s language on abortion be included in any Senate version of the ACA.
* they didn’t actually belong to Obama because the Congress is a co-equal branch of government oh fuck it it never sinks in
oldgold
The consequences of the damn butterfly ballot are tragic.
But for it:
Court would be 5/4 or better. ( No Roberts or Alito. Also, our great victory of curb stomping Harriet Miers, was it a victory?)
911 may not have occurred and, if it did, the response would not have been the disastrous war with Iraq.
The surplus would not have been squandered in an ill considered tax cut for the wealthy. The bubble would not have monstrously swollen. The economic pain of 2008-2009 would have been avoided or muted.
Climate change would have been meaningfully addressed.
And, on and on.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yes, that’s the other thing. The Dems have never been more pro-choice than they are now. In the past, they always had a small but significant antichoice contingent.
lowtechcyclist
We’re still talking about Roe, right?
Alito & Co. are saying that there’s no Constitutional right to an abortion. Codifying Roe doesn’t turn it back into a Constitutional right, it ‘just’ makes it the law everywhere in the U.S.
MisterDancer
*sigh* Yeah, I saw the quote from Obama on this. And…this is exhausting.
I’m tried of these frankly bad-faith “debates” that “suddenly” want to know why politicians didn’t do X. The reason I don’t say the GOP, but rather the Conservative Movement, around this topic is that if it was up to Reagan, or even Falwell? They, and people like them like “Chief Justice” Roberts, would have rode the anti-Roe bandwagon until the end of time. It was the fact that the Movement, overall, kept ratching up rhetoric, creating True Believers, and then putting those people into positions of power in the movement, that created the spiral we’re in now around Reproductive Rights and Justice.
Those folx created the Federalist society that wormed it’s way into a position to pack anti-choice “judges” into these roles. Where’s the Progressive version of them? Where’s the people consistently demanding Reproductive Justice, outside a small-yet-wise group of activists who are overburden, underfunded, and ignored, even now, by people like Bill in many cases?
The Progressive movement in 2008 was hot for Health Care — not Roe-as-legislative law. Obama may have said it, and that was dumb, but at no point did he have 60 votes for Pro-Choice legislation. Nor would the then Blue Dogs have allowed the filibuster to be stripped for this topic. It was, sadly, one of many campaign promises that just never were “realistic” — something that’s been done for forever!
There was no pressure for this at the time! It was the right thing, sure — yet Obama would have been slaughtered for even trying, just as he hid his early support for Gay Marriage in the campaign. There wasn’t enough of us pushing for it then, and that, yes, is partly a failure of political leadership…
…but, as I laid out above, not having a system of empowered and funded activism to push these forward does not help.
lowtechcyclist
The Republicans killed that nomination. Our people made it bipartisan, but Bush pulled the nomination because the already-dominant right wing of the party didn’t think she’d be sufficiently doctrinaire.
kindness
I can’t speak for other states. Out here in Red California, Democrats win if poor people show up to vote. I’m sorry to say that happens about once every 10 years it seems. We have a decent Democratic Congressman now but usually we have a caveman Republican.
Geminid
@Baud: I think that back when President Obama started out there was still a small cohort of “pro-life” Democratic voters. Twelve years later they are pretty much gone, as are “pro-life” Democratic Representatives (with the exception of Henry Cuellar in the TX 28th CD).
Baud
@MisterDancer:
Ok thanks. I don’t remember the quote at all.
Betty Cracker
@lowtechcyclist: I’m not a lawyer, but that’s my understanding of what the Dems are trying to do in Congress too, and most of them ARE lawyers. Marshall was praising that effort and making a larger point about why it’s important to get caught trying.
Baud
@Geminid:
I look forward to the day when AOC is the only Dem representative left in Congress because then our brand will be unmistakably clear.
PST
It worries me that Mitch McConnell has been talking about how Congress might pass a national abortion ban, but that he would never support modifying the filibuster to do so. I think that what he is really saying is that Democrats had better not modify the filibuster so as to pass a bill establishing Roe as the law of the land, since they can never be sure where that might lead after majorities shift. He’s saying that they could be setting a precedent for a national ban. (I do not have to be reminded that the Turtle is a lying sack of shit.) On the other hand, it might not be the worst thing in the world if Congress tried to establish a federal right to abortion and got shot down by the Supreme Court on the grounds that this is a subject beyond its right to legislate. It would then be difficult, if a later Congress were to establish a federal ban on abortion, for the Court to claim that a ban was within the federal power. Of course, these bastards may be up to the task of such hypocrisy.
RaflW
@Juju: “Doing something, even if not ideal, is better than doing nothing at all.”
Totally agree. One of my several complaints about Chuck Schumer is that he treats Senate time as something to conserve. As if there aren’t vast swathes of time wasted by that body.
Yeah, if you mark up, hear, debate and vote on a Roe bill you “won’t have time to do this other thing” IF you’re actually producing other work product the people want.
The general perception most weeks is that the Senate don’t do shit. GET TO IT, CHUCK. We want Susan Collins vote recorded. Of course we’d rather she vote yes, but her announcing a no is substantively different than her putting her concerned and troubled finder on the red button
@Baud: I know it’s de rigueur of me to bash Schumer, but I really do think he’s as much of a problem as SineManch. Chuck has a technicians insider view of Senate moves. We need a leader who understands how the semi-comatose but able to bother to vote average American perceives the Senate.
These voters don’t care that because SM will be nos, its not ‘effective’ to bring a bill up. “We fight for you” needs to be a central message. Not “we collapse in the pre-skirmish cloakroom.”
Geminid
@Geminid: Cuellar and Jessica Cisneros face off two weeks from today in a runoff for the TX 28th CD nomination.
Two Republican women will also compete in a runoff in that district. I’ve seen people claim that the 28th is safely Democratic but it’s not.
lowtechcyclist
@MisterDancer:
That IS a big deal. And it’s not the only area where they’ve got well-funded people pushing right-wing goals full-time and we’ve got…what?
The one I always think of is ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange Council, which drafts and pushes right-wing boilerplate legislation that Republican state legislators can fill in their state’s name in the blank, and next thing you know it’s a state law. If there’s anything on the left to counter that, I sure haven’t heard of it.
Immanentize
@Baud: But the stragglers, infuriatingly, are what give Democrats any power in Congress right now.
By the way, I agree with B. Cracker entirely about putting up legislation even if you cannot prevail. I read this insightful (for me) thing about the Russian invasion of Ukraine (and by all extension, all such invasions). A leader can save lives by capitulating quickly to an invasion. But by doing so, the country’s intrinsic mythos is destroyed. Even if you will lose, HOW you lose is as important to the underlying fight as the fact of the loss. Losing by resisting is always more preservative of a culture than giving up from the recognition that loss is inevitable. It is a hard calculus.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Do somethingers seem to be mostly ex-Republicans or ex-Naderites. Why won’t Democrat mommy save them from their own stupid decisions. Do something right now damn it
Did Biden get credit from one person about his Afghanistan decision from anyone who was yelling about forever wars.
They complain and their heroes are performance artists who tweet instead of legislate
If their first instinct is to blame the Democrats for the state we are in right now I don’t consider them serious people.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
“Fuck it, it never sinks in.”
True words ….
Maybe should be a rotating tagline.
lowtechcyclist
@RaflW:
One simple thing the Dems could do is to make Motions to Proceed exempt from the filibuster. That’s where you debate whether or not to advance a bill to the Senate floor for debate over the bill itself.
Debating whether or not to debate a bill would be the stupidest thing under the sun to begin with, if filibustering it – saying, at least in theory, that they shouldn’t end debate on whether to debate this bill – piles stupidity on top of stupidity.
If they really need to debate whether or not to advance a bill to the floor, give each side half an hour to make their arguments, then have an up-or-down vote. If Manchin’s against this, let him explain exactly how this helps the Senate be the august debating society that exists only in his head anymore.
Baud
@Immanentize:
Agree. Better to lose than to give up. But a lot of people don’t feel that way.
lowtechcyclist
@schrodingers_cat:
The most irritating thing is, often they’re proposing stuff that the Dems could actually DO, regardless of Manchin and Sinema.
Betty Cracker
@RaflW: I’m sure I read that Schumer was on board to bring this particular piece of legislation forward. Is that wrong?
Repatriated
@Ksmiami:
Bluntly: someone taking a shot at a USSC Justice.
Immanentize
@lowtechcyclist: No it wouldn’t make it a law everywhere in the US. If, as Alito’s draft posits, the 14th A. is a constitutional basis for fetal personhood, the Supreme Court can ban abortion everywhere. Also, if Alito’s less radical view wins the day, then there is no constitutional basis for Congress to violate the democratic/republican rights of STATES to ban abortion. See?
If the ERA had passed, maybe.
NobodySpecial
I just sit here and shake my head that everyone considers the elections over already. Tons of Republican supporters just died in the last two years for some reason, and they were losing their grip already on the electorate, to the point where Georgia flipped and Texas came THISCLOSE. Nothing improved demographically for them, and yet people are just giving up. WTAF?
Elizabelle
@Bill: Yours is a bad faith question, the very example of one but:
I think for both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama: their major priority was getting universal health care through. Obama also had to deal with the worst recession in decades, which destabilized banks and the auto industry. And two wars. (Thanks, Bush-Cheney.)
They wanted to spend their political capital on enacting major healthcare access and reform.
Obama accomplished that. Clinton (both Clintons) tried mightily in the 1990s, but were done in by “Harry and Louise” (remember them? The zero sum people.)
And — think of this — Democrats consider abortion a form of healthcare for women and girls (and all people who can become pregnant).
So: access to healthcare includes access to abortion (and contraception) services.
BUT, Bill: are you aware there is a whole political party devoted to outlawing abortion, and making healthcare and voting rights scarce?
You should get out more. You would not ask the questions a tool would ask.
Baud
@RaflW:
I’m not sure what your talking about. We just did this with voting rights and BBB. We also did this with the Jam 6 commission when the bipartisan commitee bill was blocked by the GOP. Where have we collapsed?
lowtechcyclist
@Immanentize:
Yeah, I see that this is exactly what Betty C. was talking about up top. It’ll get taken to the Supreme Court, which will rule against it, so we shouldn’t do it.
Fuck that shit with many fucks.
Immanentize
@oldgold: Harriet Meyers would have been a fine Justice. To the left of O’Connor, I think. And I knew her professionally in Texas. She was smart, not a crank, and perhaps lot like Janet Reno.
oldgold
The Senate was a bad idea from the get-go.
The reason we did not just adopt a parliamentary system is answered, in large measure, but not exclusively, by the what has warped our politics throughout our history – slavery and its aftermath.
Immanentize
@lowtechcyclist: Did you read my other comment? I agree it is worth proposing such a law and pushing it, but it is also good to understand it is not a strategy of success, it is one of being strong and loud when failing.
Elizabelle
@Immanentize: Yes. Harriet Meyers would have been fine. She is in the mold of Sandra Day O’Connor, maybe even more pragmatic.
It was the Pat Buchanans of the GOP who were screaming for her head. And got it.
Elizabelle
@oldgold: Isn’t the Electoral College a remnant of slavery-adjacent legislation? We should do a thread on that some day.
I think if American voters knew a lot more about the history and origin of some of these “institutions”, it would be easier to get them to agree to change them. Don’t get taken in by the states’ rights argument, which is the cover story.
Immanentize
@lowtechcyclist: Did you read my other comment? I agree it is worth proposing such a law and pushing it, but it is also good to understand it is not a strategy of success, it is one of being strong and loud when failing.
schrodingers_cat
@NobodySpecial: Everybody == mostly white people/privileged people who have no experience with real adversity.
lowtechcyclist
@Baud:
How many times did the GOP try to kill the ACA?
This year, voting rights and the BBB are a vague memory.
lowtechcyclist
@Immanentize: I misunderstood you. My apologies.
lowtechcyclist
The CRT scare was definitely about making sure future voters won’t know much about this.
Baud
@lowtechcyclist:
Well, that’s the problem, right? We refuse to remember when Dems fight and then we claim that they don’t fight like the GOP.
Immanentize
@Elizabelle: It is, but it may be a bit less connected than some other parts of the Constitution because there were slavery-oppositional states in the Northeast that were small (Rhode Island, Vermont, New Hampshire) but were fundamentally rural that also like the Senate set up.
It is the combination of the Senate, the Electoral College, no direct voting for Senators, and 3/5 apportionment for slaves plus full apportionment for other folks in chattel adjacent places in society (women and children) with no vote that really put the racism into the founder’s product. Alito and all “originalists” celebrate that.
oldgold
@Immanentize:
Yes, she would have been a hell of lot better than Alito. Hell, an average Justice of the Peace would be. These academic, no real experience, ideologues have been an effin’ disaster.
Apparently at the HIGHLY overrated Ivy Law Schools, the 9th Amendment and its underpinnings have been excluded from Constitutional Law courses. Of course, after Bush v Gore, why they even teach Constitutional Law (balancing tests, my ass), other than as an historic artifact, is beyond me.
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize:
Hell, Ukrainians still talk about the Treaty of Pereyaslav (1654.) These things don’t go away.
RaflW
@lowtechcyclist: Sidewalk chalk! Is Collins going to come out against face painting and helium balloons next?
Immanentize
@Elizabelle: PS: the easiest way to fix the electoral college without constitutional amendment is to increase the number of house seats which would rebalance small and large state EC votes.
Ksmiami
@Repatriated: we’ll, that’s just part and parcel for a rowdy rebellious and armed electorate. Too bad. We commoners are at risk every time we go to school, or a grocery store…
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: it is a very human thing.
Noble loss is celebrated (even if not so noble, see: Confederates) while easy victories are forgotten. When is “Victory in Granada Day” again?
RaflW
@Kay: Dang. The dude’s most recent tweet is calling on Jews to covert.
I bet he’s really charming at interfaith events.
Immanentize
@oldgold: my number system has no 9 in it. What is this 9th Amd you speak of?
As for teaching Con Law, I have moved to a race/gender/class/history based analysis of Supreme Court decisions. It seems to me the best way to get my students to understand what an opinion meant when it was issued and why it has (or does not have) staying power as doctrine. It is amazing how few of my students are surprised by things like labor history (steel seizure case) or the “Switch in time that saved nine” (depression cases 1934 vs 37) or how many reconstruction era Justices were prior slave holders or even Rebel soldiers. Etc.
EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo)
@Elizabelle: IMO, that is a good thing but I believe it would be short lived. The Texas SB 8 case has not yet been argued. We need to be prepared for Roe’s death knell. GOP state legislatures’ reaction to this leaked opinion shows that they will push the envelope. This SCOTUS will too.
moops
Skip the Abortion protection bill. Go straight for court expansion. Nobody under the illusion that the court is non-partisan. Everyone knows it is a right wing court and that has to be remedied.
Eunicecycle
@RaflW: I can assure you Tobin is an asshole in the finest tradition of assholery. ETA: I understand there was a big party at the chancery after he left Youngstown.
Repatriated
@Ksmiami:
True, but irrelevant. Imagine the nomination process for replacing an assassinated Justice.
Now imagine media coverage of the nomination process….
Immanentize
@RaflW:
@Eunicecycle:
Whenever I see comments like “____ should _____”, I think of my favorite scene from Rumble Fish:
EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo)
@lowtechcyclist: What a snowflake. Jay-sus.
oldgold
@Immanentize: Yes, it is damn interesting history.
But, after wasting decades on Constitutional Law, I decided after Bush v. Gore to make better use of my time by chasing, gambling and drinking.
And, yes, many folks on the Right have reduced the 10 to 2.5. With only half the First counted, all of the Second and Tenth. Although recent signals indicate the Right’s love affair with the Tenth may be on the skids.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
There is no political party anywhere that blames their own voters.
In what world is this supposed to work? Every criticism of leadership is turned around and turned into a criticism of their own voters?
No other political party does this because it’s nuts. It’s absolutely unique to the Democratic Party. “Our VOTERS have let us DOWN again. They don’t handle ADVERSITY well”. What?
I didn’t ask a whole lot. I expected the 5000 or so people we’re paying in Congress to put together a PLAN for when the opinion dropped. They had a year. It was due in June. They needed it May, slighty ahead of deadline. They didn’t have it. House, Senate, executive branch. Votes lined up, plans ready to go.
They’re milling around the justices houses and fracturing because no one is in charge.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@schrodingers_cat:
Yup. For all the “get caught trying” and “Do Something!” rhetoric, Biden did Something the Very On-Line Left claimed he would never Do, and…. WHAT ABOUT MY STUDENT DEBT! ?
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
And the insistence here that this is driven by and springs from “do something Twitter”
The Governor of California wants to know where they are. The successful Democratic politician who increased his margin in a recall is begging them for a national, unified approach.
Baud
@Kay:
Balloon Juice commenters aren’t the Democratic Party. We’re just voters. And voters can blame other voters all they want. And even we aren’t blaming are voters. We’re challenging non-voters to step up to the challenge. You can disagree with that, but blaming the “party” for comments on this blog is the type of collective responsibility tactic that the media usually engages in.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
There will be some kind of resistance. That’s the base. The one and only question is if leadership can harness it and direct it. Maybe they can’t. Maybe that is not a set of skills they have. But if they can’t don’t blame voters and activists – they’re just making it up as they go along.
EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo)
@debbie: I don’t disagree with her either. I just recognize the likelihood it will happen mirrors the likelihood that I’ll show up on the cover of Vogue tomorrow.
Kay
@Baud:
You do blame them. You identified the problem as “voting culture”. Pray tell, Baud, where does this “culture” come from? Is it just inherent, their deficiencies? Poor character? Does it perhaps come from leadership who are seemingly incapable of planning 6 months ahead?
Democratic voters are not the problem. They came out in 2020. They did their job.
Baud
@Kay:
The majority of Dem voters are the best people in the world. But culture comes from the culture, top to bottom. And some parts of our culture is bad, just like a lot of GOP culture is truly awful.
Barack Obama could not have won election in 1870 or 1940, not because he would have run a poor campaign, but because the culture would not have allowed it. Culture matters. It’s not 100% about the top leaders.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay:
It simply astonishes me that you keep posting this.
artem1s
While I support the idea of codifying reproductive rights, this also has to be the tip of the spear. If we want to settle this once and for all we need the Equal Rights Act to be passed so we don’t have to go thru this every time the WH or SCOTUS changes hands. We almost had it and then got convinced Roe would protect us so we wouldn’t have to discuss sex and gender in public. ERA wasn’t going to be passed in the 80’s and 90’s because most of the country hadn’t wrapped their heads around gender issues. Before HIV/AIDs and DADT I had never heard a US public official acknowledge that homosexuals exist (yea C. Everett Coop), let alone in a positive light. Women in the military was still a outlandish concept.
I’ve never been keen on male Democrats lukewarm support of Roe and women’s rights. Until Obama, no President had ever acknowledged that lack of choice impacts economic opportunities. Too many candidates got by with the ‘I don’t personally support abortion but support choice’ as a default statement. They never had to step up and say one way or another whether they really believed in equal gender rights. Even Obama dodged the question while he was running for the WH.
So as long as we hang privacy, gender rights, and agency on Roe, it will always be under attack and half the population won’t care if one law is overturned because it ‘just’ abortion. And DINOs will be able to tell us we should throw women under the bus so we can maybe get one more WWC man to vote for a D.
The underlying assumption of right to privacy or gender equity isn’t explicitly stated in the Constitution. It’s time we change that. Reproductive rights are based on a case that was so painfully twisted out of shape that in reality it never applies to 99% of those who seek to terminate a pregnancy. So we have ‘good’ abortions and ‘bad’ abortions. Now the right has declared all are bad and if anyone says otherwise they are murdering babies. It was stupid to make Roe our hill to die on.
Imagine if the memo was leaked saying they intended to overturn the 14th amendment, or add language to the first amendment establishing a state religion? It’s a whole different ballpark when they go from interpreting the constitution (wrongly) to outright changing it.
It’s well past time we enacted the Equal Rights Amendment. This time the whole LGBTQ community and their friends and families will be behind it – not just a bunch of bra burning, hairy arm pitted screeching Betty Friedans. Make Opus Dei argue in front of everyone that LGBTQ and females aren’t human and don’t have souls and see how fast White women get a clue about the risks they are taking when they sit idly by on matters of reproductive choice.
This time we make it a consumer issue too. Does Disney, Amazon, and Walmart want to lose the buying power of women? Does Chase want the GOP to take away all our credit cards?
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It simply astonishes me that you attribute all problems in the Democratic Party to “do something Twitter” and faithless voters.
Notable and glaring is the absence of people with actual power.
Jinchi
All the more reason to put it to a vote. Let Manchin and Sinema make it explicit that they’re the obstacle and highlight what Democrats would. accomplish with a solid majority.
Putting legislation up for a vote, even at risk of losing, is proof that the party is really in the fight to win in the long term.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: I am not the party, I am just one voter, expressing my views about a vocal contingent of of people who are ostensibly on the Democratic side but always blame Democrats for everything and credit them for nothing.
They call themselves progressives and insist loudly that they are the base. But keep threatening to sit out the elections if their whims are not catered to. They are mostly white.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
if there’s a bad message for Young Voters (praised be their solipsistic impatience), I think it’s “You voted once. You did your part, my own precious darlings. You are perfectly justified in staying home now because Old Man Biden didn’t keep Bernie Dumbledore’s campaign promises”.
Republicans are where they are because of a fifty year, multi-generational commitment to voting in every election, from the proverbial dog-catcher to President. But a good “leadership” message is apparently, “You voted that one time. You’re done. Go to the sidelines and bitch in all your youthful righteousness”
schrodingers_cat
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: They voted once. What more do you want? //
Jim, Foolish Literalist
JR in WV
@Baud:
Yes, THIS !!!
Also, did you see that Chuck Todd’s daily show on MSNBC has been moved to a streaming service? Yay!! My butt has better news judgment than Chuck Todd!! My dogs are better conversationalists!
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Today’s Bad Democratic Voters: The Young
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
The entire point, the reason for existing, of a political parties political arm is to convince people to vote for them. You keep saying they’re all “white” too, which just isn’t true. The Democrat, A Democrat, needs huge support from AA voters. They cannot win elections with 70% approval in that group.
Do Something Twitter is not the problem. No one on Twitter is the problem.
Maybe it’s inflation. Maybe it’s gas prices. But it’s not Twitter.
Nate Combs
Stopping by for the US Grant talk…
IMO, the thing that made Grant more visionary than his compatriots was his down-in-the-dirt experience with logistics and “reality”, as a quartermaster in the Mexican American war, and his improbable passage across Panama afterwards. Knowing the heartbeat of an army, and how wagons, horses, and men traverse terrain, was something the standard “General” never cared to learn. Burnside ordered a pontoon bridge in the middle of muddy winter at Fredericksburg, and when it never showed up, charged anyway. Contrast that with Grant crossing the James River, fixing the crackerline at Chattanooga, and his masterful maneuvering at Vicksburg. Sherman himself said that what he saw Grant do at Vicksburg was one of the “greatest campaigns in history.” Where Grant failed was in his civic life, both pre-war and as President, where he was too trusting of those around him. Where Sherman excelled was in his capacity for brutality, especially when it was strategically directed by others.
What we need in todays Dem politicians is a mixture of both – politicians with community roots that know how to get stuff done, and aren’t stereotypical “insiders”. Also, the capacity for political brutality that will maul the GOP across the map
lowtechcyclist
@Baud:
Ah, so you’re saying once is enough for our elected representatives to try to pass the legislation we sent them there to try to pass. But once is not enough for voters to vote for them.
That’s a weird double standard. Voters should vote every time, not just once, and our politicians should try more than once to get vital legislation passed.
Dopey-o
OMG! Someone has taken the Dunning Krugger Vaccine!
taumaturgo
@Kay: One theme that runs along the poster is the idea that anything and everything is responsible for the current sad state of affairs of the party, anything and everything except the current corporate dominated leadership. Leaders passed their prime, some suspected of suffering from Alzheimer, antiquated ideas that are inadequate for today’s day and age. Until and unless the leadership is held responsible by the folks here for the string of political malpractice that in the particular case of Roe goes back 50 years, they will continue to fool everyone that the next vote is the vote when the change will happen. Fool me once…
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: Your specious arguments equate me with the Democratic party. You are also attributing to me things that I have never said or implied
Your favorites the leaders of the populist left in the Senate and the Congress, leaders with actual jobs who spend all their time preening on Twitter and TV are hurting Joe Biden just as much as Manchin and SInema are.
Besides we are in this position because the Old of the Green Mountain State did everything to poison the well against HRC and the Democratic party during both his runs for the nomination of the party he is too good to be a part of.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: historically they have been, yes. But my comment was more directed at those old enough to know better who encourage– really, almost fetishize in the last five years– the natural but still misguided political impatience of the youth either by dumbing down politics (“look out the window, Mitch”) or saying things like: “They did their job. They voted that one time”
Politics is hard work, the slow boring of hard boards, and incrementalism is how things happen in this very complicated system. Telling young voters (or those who wish they were telling themselves) anything else is just lying to them. I don’t see how those lies, however satisfying they may be in the moment to those who say them and those who hear them, are supposed to be good for anyone.
@Kay:
Sure as shit isn’t the solution, either. And the anti-Democratic left, of which Do-Somethingism is just one recent manifestation, has fucked things up badly for this country in the last twenty-odd years.
ed
@Baud: Chris Hedges over at mintpress says he did: “The airy promises politicians make, including the announcement by candidate Barack Obama that the first thing he would do in office was sign the Freedom of Choice Act, which during his eight years as president he never got around to doing, are worthless. The scheduled vote next week in the Senate on a bill asserting that abortions are legal in the United States, which is expected to be blocked by the Republican’s use of the filibuster, a Senate procedural rule that requires 60 votes to advance most legislation in the 100-member chamber, is another empty gesture.”
Paul W.
@Butter Emails!: It is very late in this thread, but to me this is the ACTUAL set of problems we need to overcome rather than “leadership”.
Yes, it’s annoying that there is no “plan” it is demoralizing to see leadership dunk on protestors… but honestly who the FUCK cares? Surely not the protestors.
Also it isn’t like the Republicans had a “plan” beyond: 1) GET POWER 2) FYIGM
Generally speaking the Republican electorate will let an infinite amount of personal and long term financial stability slip through their fingers if they get their anti-abortion hate juice every night. Otherwise, they don’t get in each other’s way and to the extent they do they are ignored because they will either not vote at all or still vote GOP. That is a much easier operational space, but I personally feel like WITH OR WITHOUT LEADERSHIP Democrats and everyday people who hear about this news are outraged and can be organized… we just need to do it.
Geminid
@Nate Combs: Ulysses Grant was a capable plowman and teamster by age 12. The oldest son and apple of his father’s eye, Grant was allowed to hire himself and Jesse Grant’s wagon out and pay another boy to take his place at his father’s tannery. Grant was also a skilled horseback rider, considered the best in his class at West Point.
By the time Grant served as logistics head for the 4th Infantry Regiment in Mexico he knew tranport inside and out. He also knew how to delegate authority, and when battles were impending Grant would leave the wagons in charge of his sergeants and fight at the front.