Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Dumb motherfuckers cannot understand a consequence that most 4 year olds have fully sorted out.

One way or another, he’s a liar.

One of our two political parties is a cult whose leader admires Vladimir Putin.

Trump’s cabinet: like a magic 8 ball that only gives wrong answers.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

Boeing: repeatedly making the case for high speed rail.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Today in our ongoing national embarrassment…

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

Lick the third rail, it tastes like chocolate!

Compromise? There is no middle ground between a firefighter and an arsonist.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Welcome to day five of every-bit-as-bad-as-you-thought-it-would-be.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

Rupert, come get your orange boy, you petrified old dinosaur turd.

Come on, man.

“But what about the lurkers?”

Dear Washington Post, you are the darkness now.

When we show up, we win.

Hi god, it’s us. Thanks a heap, you’re having a great week and it’s only Thursday!

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Thursday Morning Open Thread: Everything All At Once

Thursday Morning Open Thread: Everything All At Once

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131Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    >>I’m attending Harris County Democratic Party’s event, “DON’T LOOK AWAY: Hold the NRA and Republicans Accountable” – sign up now to join me
    _______________________

    That doesn’t sound feckless at all.

  2. 2.

    SiubhanDuinne

    // In the past few weeks, we’ve had three outrageous tragedies that have really shaken America to its core: a sidewalk defacement in Maine, a house protest in Maryland, and now a press conference interruption in Texas. We can’t go on like this. //

    I don’t know who J. Van Wyck is, but I like her style!

  6. 6.

    lowtechcyclist

    Fuck you, Gov. Abbott. If my son had been one of those kids, I’d have been too devastated to talk. But once I was able to function again, I’d want someone to have been angry on my behalf, the way Beto was.

  7. 7.

    WereBear

    I love the way the Harry Bosch writer clawed back his film options and did it himself and did it right.

    Good for him he started a second series. He must like it.

  8. 8.

    sdhays

    So…apparently the Uvalde police did pretty much nothing but prevent parents from trying to save their children while the shooter went on his murderous rampage. Except a couple of them ran in and saved their own children and then waited for Border Patrol (?) to show up.

    I really can’t process how fucked up this country is right now.

  9. 9.

    OzarkHillbilly

    “A network of ultra-Christian, anti-abortion and far-right organisations is building momentum in its quest to influence abortion policy in Europe as the US supreme court considers striking down Roe v Wade, the 1973 ruling that legalised the procedure in America.

    “Elements of the network originally came together under the name Agenda Europe, holding yearly summits across the continent between 2013 until at least 2018, by which time it had grown to comprise 300 participants, including politicians and Vatican diplomats.

    “The aim of the group was to “restore the natural order” by devising ways to gradually erode abortion rights, gay rights and policies on combating violence against women, as well as to reduce access to contraceptives.”

    Just in case you weren’t sure what their ultimate goal is.

  10. 10.

    Dangerman

    Shipping in formula on USAF jets? Clearly government interference; the free market will solve all problems. (/s)

  11. 11.

    Baud

    ‘@sdhays May 26, 2022 at 9:15 AM

    In the Parkland shooting, wasn’t there a security guard at the school who took a lot of flak for not doing more to protect the students?

  12. 12.

    Baud

    ‘@OzarkHillbilly May 26, 2022 at 9:16 AM

    Agenda Europe a/k/a The Dark Ages Part II Project

  13. 13.

    Skookum in Oly

    Fucker Snarlson warns of civil war? What, are they going to start shooting at us? Take over our city streets with their big scary smoking pickup trucks? Open another Chick-Fil-A? This is all they have, threats and fear. It’s always the same. I don’t think they’ve thought this through. I say bring it. WE have the numbers, WE have the cash, WE have the fury.

  14. 14.

    OzarkHillbilly

    ‘@Baud. A city cop on school duty.

    eta I should note that at the time I was against the vitriol being slung at the man, arguing that being brave in the face of gunfire isn’t the easiest thing to do. I also noted that yes, he failed at his job, that at the very least he should have entered the school and at least tried to ascertain what was happening and how many perps there were. He wasn’t up to the minimum his job required, which is just sad for all involved.

  15. 15.

    NotMax

    ‘@Dangerman

    Unfortunately the obvious name for the flight, Formula One, is already spoken for.

    //

  18. 18.

    sdhays

    ‘@OzarkHillbilly – I recall that. He was also 1 guy. But “everything’s bigger in Texass”. These fuckers rolled in, saved their own children, and apparently one of these jackasses yelled out “who needs help” and the child who answered him was subsequently shot by the murderer.

    The level of incompetence, mixed with cowardice and shear disinterest in the wellbeing of anyone not directly related to them just boggles the mind. And what I really am struggling with is how we can be shown time and time again how awful the police are, just total failures at their jobs, and yet we have to pretend like they deserve respect or don’t deserve to be “defunded”.

    There’s a massive nihilistic death cult that isn’t bothered by this, or will just say that the performance of these pieces of shit who didn’t protect school children aren’t at all related to the performance of the pieces of shit who go around killing people because they’re not the right race.

  19. 19.

    sdhays

    Oh, and they let him walk in there and then lied about how he was covered in body armor as an excuse for how he made it inside past the cracker jack Uvalde PD elite farce.

  20. 20.

    OzarkHillbilly

    ‘@eclare: Not that I recall, but my memory being what it is…

    @sdhays: Blue Lives Matter. More.

  21. 21.

    Elizabelle

    The weasels screaming for “harden the schools so we can keep all of our guns, even the assault ones”: real world data says the issue is to keep the gun out of the school in the first place. “Trained” officers are failing to stop a school shooter armed with assault weapons. At least twice, with multiple deaths. An officer may stop some shootings, but not all of them, and not the really bad ones.

    Enough. We have our empirical evidence.

  23. 23.

    debbie

    I hope those officers are held accountable for their (lack of) action.

    I listened to interviews with TX legislators on BBC and NPR. One wants schools and other places hardened, leaving lunatics to run wild with their many guns. Another wants retired vets patrolling the halls. And some “security expert” talked about establishing what he calls “rat doors,” some magical way of locking a shooter into a confined space until apprehended by authorities.

    Anything but gun control!

  24. 24.

    JPL

    ‘@Elizabelle It’s insulting Schools should not be targets. Maybe they want to fortify daycares next. What about playgrounds?
    It’s lucky that I don’t have a swear jar.

  27. 27.

    Bobby Thomson

    I posted this on the Beto thread below but reposting up here so maybe someone will read it.

    I haven’t donated to a candidate since 2020 but I threw a bunch of scratch around yesterday. If you really want to make symbolic contributions, the following are good choices:
    Beto (Gov-TX): obvious reasons
    Cheri Beasley (Sen-NC): running against a literal gun shop owner
    Val Demings (Sen-FL): gun control is one of her signature issues; running against NRA tool Marco Rubio
    Mark Kelly (Sen-AZ): spouse of Gabby Giffords, also one of the three most endangered incumbent Democratic Senators
    Democratic Party of Wisconsin (Sen/Gov: WI): We won’t know who is running against doofus Ron Johnson until August; Tony Evers is also up for re-election in a key swing state
    Gretchen Whitmer (Gov-MI): up for re-election in a key swing state; was the target of an attempted kidnapping/murder by white supremacist terrorists
    Stacey Abrams (Gov-GA): the key to expanding Democratic success in the South and nationwide

    Katie Hobbs is also running for Governor of Arizona, another important swing state.

    If you’re more interested in playing defense and securing gains, in addition to the incumbents above (Kelly, Evers, Whitmer), Raphael Warnock (Sen-GA) and Catherine Cortez Masto (Sen-NV) could also use help, and it probably wouldn’t hurt to contribute to Steve Sisolak (Gov-NV, incumbent).

    My PA peeps: in addition to supporting the state legislative committees, the three Democratic districts most at risk of swinging Republican are PA-07 (Susan Wild; Lehigh & Northampton counties); PA-08 (Matt Cartwright; (Pike, Wayne, & Lackawanna counties); and PA-17 (Open but Chris Deluzio is the Democratic nominee; NW of Pittsburgh).

  28. 28.

    WaterGirl

    ‘@WereBear

    What a great way to promote Bosch and Bosch: Legacy. From the way you guys were talking I thought it might be for real. That had to be fun to make.

  29. 29.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    ‘@ shdays “Uvalde police did nothing”

    I will point this out again, even the screwed up LAPD shot it out with the those bankrobbers rather then let the two of them go on a murder rampage. What level of useless trash does a police force have to be to not even meet the LAPD’s low standards?

  30. 30.

    Steeplejack

    Ha-ha, foolish libtards! My RWNJ brother brings the truth on Facebook:

    “A horrific event. What will follow is another vilification of firearms, centrists, Republicans, and many more. Guns have always been around in the USA, even semi-automatics. I think the enormous increase in ‘active shooters’ is caused by the extreme polarity, anxiety, and fear that the media has created and thrives on to make money. This affects borderline personalities and nudges them to violence.

    “Gun legislation is a specious, knee-jerk, feel-good reaction that will be as ineffective as always.”

    Accompanied, of course, by a picture similar to this one:
    https://www.pennlago.com/wp-content/uploads/Nothing.png

    And backed up with the incisive commentary of one of his Facebook pals: “Exactly correct! Now lets send Kamala and Sleepy Joe to Chicago so they collect all the illegal guns.”

    Hur-hur-hur. Game, set and checkmate, libtards!

  31. 31.

    debbie

    ‘@JPL: The guy was talking about every doorway being turned into two doors so that a shooter could be locked in between them. These people hurt my head.

  32. 32.

    WereBear

    ‘@ Watergirl: The increasing autonomy of writers in this area is a very exciting development. It will help make up for the crushing grip of a company like Disney, who gets less creative the more they run out of things to buy and ruin.

  33. 33.

    debbie

    ‘@ Steeplejack:

    Toss “prefrontal cortex” right back at him, and how 18-year-olds with prefrontal cortexes that won’t be fully developed until their mid-20s aren’t capable of sound judgment, weighing of consequences, and impulse control, and so shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near such dangerous weapons.

  34. 34.

    japa21

    Personally, I think there American Psychiatric Association needs to step in and recommend legislation that anyone who fails a mental capacity exam should be barred from owning any firearms and making the point that anyone who feels it is necessary to own a military grade weapon for their personal use, by definition, automatically fails the exam.

  35. 35.

    OzarkHillbilly

    ‘@Steeplejack: “Guns have always been around in the USA, even semi-automatics.”

    Your brother is a little rusty on his history.

  36. 36.

    Baud

    ‘@OzarkHillbilly May 26, 2022 at 10:09 AM

    You don’t remember the semi-automatics at Yorktown???

    I believe they were AR-1’s back then.

  37. 37.

    MisterDancer

    It’s a brutal and painful irony this is happening on the Anniversary of George Floyd’s murder.

    It’s a reminder that movements like Black Lives Matter, matter to more than us Black folx. That the issues that allow Police to put Black blood on the streets, are the same that allow them to let these kids get killed…

    …except, of course, their own kids. Those kids, they went in and saved.

    Law enforcement, and gun control, are systemic, interconnected issues. And solving them will take systemic, interconnected, coalitions of people, working together to support people like Beto in these fights, and getting up in the fight in enough numbers to move the media and politicians.

  38. 38.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    Steeplejack @ “Guns have always been around in the USA, even semi-automatics.”

    The Mars was the first semi auto and that in the late 1880s, in England. These twits don’t even know their own shit.

    Some dimwit was going on on twitter about “rap is the cause, because it glorifies gun voiance and portrays women as hookers”

    So I replied “Westerns were doing that since the 1870s”

    So he is “your being silly”

    So I replied “What do you think Clint Eastwood was mocking in Unforgiven with English Bob, the Chines murdering coward, his writer friend who turned English Bob into some American Paladin and all the female characters were literal whores?”

    The right is filled with Zombies.

  40. 40.

    lowtechcyclist

    These fuckers rolled in, saved their own children

    Link? I’ve heard this multiple times in blog/Twitter chatter, but not with any substantiation.

  43. 43.

    Dorothy A Winsor

    I don’t think it’s useful to argue with the loons on their terms. I’ve found the argument that makes them pause it that other countries, too, listen to rap, have mental illness, etc, but they don’t have mass shootings. The one difference is the ready availability of guns.

  44. 44.

    lowtechcyclist

    ‘@Baud: does that video show the cops rescuing their own kids? The title doesn’t say anything about that.

  45. 45.

    debbie

    ‘@ Baud:

    Jesus, that’s inhuman. I hope Benjamin Crump can find room in his schedule to deal with these monsters.

  46. 46.

    Elizabelle

    Andy Horowitz, satirist, The New Yorker:

    headline: Shaken Greg Abbott Describes Moment of Terror When Beto O’Rourke Talked to Him

    The Governor accused O’Rourke of hiding behind the First Amendment, “intended for use only in times of war.”

  47. 47.

    Baud

    ‘@lowtechcyclist

    Don’t think so. You’re right to be skeptical of claims absent evidence.

  48. 48.

    raven

    “American Pie” singer Don McLean said bye-bye to the upcoming National Rifle Association convention in Houston, saying it would be “disrespectful” to play after an elementary school shooting in Uvalde, Texas, left 19 children and two teachers dead.
    The 1970s folk-rock hitmaker on Wednesday canceled his appearance at the NRA’s Grand Ole Night of Freedom concert set for Saturday.

  49. 49.

    Soprano2

    I’m reading that the police sat outside that school for 40 minutes? What the fuck? Aren’t they supposed to be the “good guys with guns” who will protect us from “bad guys with guns”? Just fuck….

  50. 50.

    beth

    I can’t read his title but I thought Wayne LaPierre got caught using the NRA as his own personal piggy bank. Is he still running the organization?

  51. 51.

    Tazj

    This is my big problem with the police. If you know that you as an armed and trained officer are no match for a civilian with an AR-15 than why aren’t you in favor of more strict gun control laws including an assault weapons ban? I’m sure some are but most I see are very pro- Republican.
    After the murders in Buffalo the schools where my kids go sent out emails talking about an increased security measures and police presence, that’s hardly reassuring now if it ever was.

  52. 52.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    For future reference, what’s a good counter-argument to the “Chicago is proof gun control doesn’t work” that right-wingers love to bring up? I suppose other countries as examples but they don’t have the gun culture we do either

  53. 53.

    Betty Cracker

    ‘@ Steeplejack: I dumped my little-used Facebook account because of that company’s feckless and/or malicious participation in the 2016 Russian disinformation campaign. But a great side effect of no long being in the Borg is I miss stupid rants like that from my wingnut relatives. It enables our love/hate relationships to be more on the love side.

  55. 55.

    Tony Jay

    What the fuck was Don McLean doing appearing at a concert for the NRA in the first place? I had no idea the guy was Wingnut or Wingnut Adjacent.

    And if he is, then let me put it another way. “What’s the big deal, Don? It’s not like the music died.”

  57. 57.

    Dorothy A Winsor

    ‘@Goku
    I recently read a claim that Chicago gun death rates are lower than the rates in many red states. I can’t find that now and I don’t know if it’s true.

    Here’s a 2022 link that includes gun death rates by state
    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

    And here’s 2018 one about guns in Chicago
    https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/the-myths-and-truths-about-chicagos-guns-and-murder-rate/167390/

    Thank link shows that adjusted for population, Chicago’s gun death rate is lower than, frex, St Louis’s.

  58. 58.

    raven

    Tony Jay

    Well this clears it up! ” I started trying to write, not a roman à clef by any means, but just sprinkling around notions — and “American Pie,” “Prime Time,” “Headroom” are other examples — of trying to capture the insanity of America. One of the things about Donald Trump is he is a clear embodiment of that insanity. Whereas Nixon and LBJ were all hidden behind a press shield. So, they were crookeder by far than Donald Trump, but they were always presented as being “normal.” But the truth has come out — these people were not right in the head. The government tipped its hand when Kennedy was assassinated, and we realized that the president is not running the country. The president enacts the plan of other people who want certain things to happen. And he has certain parameters. And [LBJ and Nixon] weren’t running the country either; they were prosecuting these wars because they were told to. And it’s still the same today — with wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and all that stuff. I’m not a political person in the sense that I’m a believer in any politician — I don’t trust any of them. But I am a believer in America and very interested in America, and so I tried to capture that insanity.

  59. 59.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Chicago has no control over gun sales outside of the city limits. I’m sure the gunnuts would be OK if the CPD walled off the city and set up checkpoints at a limited # of access points.

  61. 61.

    OzarkHillbilly

    ‘@ Dorothy A Winsor
    May 26, 2022 at 11:00 AM

    And STL’s, while one of the worst in the country*, is no where near what it was back in the 70s/80s.

    * I think a year or 2 ago it was the highest in the country, don’t know about lately.

  62. 62.

    SiubhanDuinne

    ‘@JPL 9:48 am

    It’s utterly terrifying that this man could conceivably be our next U. S. Senator. Terrifying.

  63. 63.

    Barbara

    ‘@ Bobby — Thank you for the list. I am so deluged with requests for donations that I find it difficult to prioritize.

  64. 64.

    Captain C

    JPL May 26, 2022 at 9:48 AM “Herschel Walker has the solution. I’m not sure what it is though. Maybe you can inform me.”

    Serious question: is it possible that Herschel Walker, in addition to his mental health and domestic violence issues, has a serious case of CTE from his days as a running back who for a number of years regularly took the ball 20-40 times a game, and presumably averaged taking that many hard hits per game as well? I was a fan of his when he was on the New Jersey TFGs, sorry, Generals, and he was a magnificent running back but was given the ball so many damn times. I was really bummed to find out that he’s basically for years been both a garbage human being AND someone who probably needs some serious mental health treatment and isn’t going and getting it.

    ETA: Regarding getting hit often and hard, I remember an article at the time that talked about how he wore enormous shoulder pads so he could better crash into would-be tacklers.

  65. 65.

    ian

    ‘@Goku there is a whole black-market industry dedicated to transporting guns from places like Texas, Florida, and Georgia to NYC and Chicago. Guns are easily and cheaply acquired, serial markers filed off, then illegally transported to places with stricter gun control.

  66. 66.

    stinger

    ‘@Baud: In the Parkland shooting, wasn’t there a security guard at the school who took a lot of flak for not doing more to protect the students?
    @Elizabelle: “Trained” officers are failing to stop a school shooter armed with assault weapons.

    And yet there are people who think “arming the teachers” would be a great idea. Somehow teachers would be more effective at this than police or security guards.

    Said nutjobs never offer ideas on how to *pay* for the teachers’ guns/ammo, and marksmanship training, and mental health therapy after they’ve killed THEIR OWN STUDENTS.

  67. 67.

    The Moar You Know

    ‘@raven

    ““American Pie” singer Don McLean said bye-bye to the upcoming National Rifle Association convention in Houston, saying it would be “disrespectful” to play after an elementary school shooting in Uvalde, Texas, left 19 children and two teachers dead.”

    Dude’s a hardcore righty and gun fetishist. But he/his management don’t want him to become Penniless Ted Nugent, Part II. He’d still like to be able to play the nice venues and casinos, with no protestors.

  68. 68.

    Mike in NC

    Apparently the NRA gun-fest is still on for tomorrow in Houston. I think I read that Texas has had more mass shooting incidents than any other state. Looking forward to reading about how Ted Cruz will bow down and kiss the ring of the Fat Orange Clown who insulted his family.

  70. 70.

    scav

    Somehow a well-known song with the repeated words easily adapted to “The day the children died” might prompt a guy with his eye on the easy buck to keep his head down.

  71. 71.

    pacem appellant

    This comment isn’t intended to stir the pot, but I just want to say that I genuinely like the vacation cottage. The drapes are lovely and the view is great, to say nothing of the wonder company. If JA is the new home for BJ, I won’t mind it in the least.

  72. 72.

    debbie

    ‘@ Whoever linked to that CNN article: LaPierre needs to be the next victim of a “lone, depraved wolf.”

  73. 73.

    JoyceH

    It sounds like there is plenty to criticize about the police response at Uvalde, but when people ask why the gunman wasn’t shot before he entered the school – come on, before the gunman entered the school, he was just an upstanding citizen conducting the sacred ritual of performative jackassery by traipsing around with military weapons to trigger the libs. Perfectly legal in Texas, and we’ve been told if we find such behavior suspicious, that’s because we’re easily triggered snowflakes. Taking the AR for an airing is utterly normal and downright wholesome. Of course, if store cops want to start shooting every Second Amendment Patriot who needs an assault rifle to stand in line at Starbucks…. I don’t really have a problem with that.

  74. 74.

    WaterGirl

    There are 4 comments in the Trash:

    Scout211
    MisterDancer
    beth
    debbie

    All between 9:42 and 11:51 this morning.

    I can’t tell if we have a glitch or if all 4 of you hit the DELETE button that shows up if you click to edit your comment.

    Can you guys let me know?

  77. 77.

    Kay

    The two classrooms were adjoining, with an interior door between them. One of the child survivors described the gunman as shooting “the middle door”, so I’m wondering if police thought shooter was locked in an empty classroom not knowing about the interior door connecting the two rooms.

  78. 78.

    debbie

    ‘@ WG: LOL. I didn’t delete, but I was responding to Scout 211’s deleted comment. I don’t care to calm down, frankly.

    Sorry.

  79. 79.

    debbie

    P.S. There was one comment I deleted earlier this morning, but I think it was on the previous thread.

  80. 80.

    beth

    WG – I deleted it because I had a typo in my email. I answered your question about the delete but hadn’t seen my comment yet so I should have two comments in trash. Sorry for the confusion!

  82. 82.

    Kay

    UVALDE, Texas — A fourth grader who survived the mass shooting at witnessed inside that classroom.Robb Elementary has shared gut-wrenching details about what he
    “He shot the next person’s door. We have a door in the middle. He opened it. He came in and he crouched a little bit and he said, he said,
    ‘It’s time to die,'” the boy recalled.
    Authorities say the suspect barricaded himself inside a classroom and opened fire on the people inside, killing 19 children and two teachers before he was killed by law enforcement.

    “We have a door in the middle. He opened it”. So he got into the (occupied) classroom not through the door that opens on a hallway but thru the interior door.

  83. 83.

    debbie

    zhena gogolia May 26, 2022 at 11:00 AM:

    Thanks, that was funny. I was too tired to stay up past the monologue, but I figured they’d rerun it at least twice this summer.

  84. 84.

    WaterGirl

    Thanks for all the replies! With comments by 4 different people being deleted in a short timeframe, I wanted to make sure we didn’t have a problem.

    This tells me, though, that the DELETE option is popular. :-)

  85. 85.

    debbie

    ‘@ Kay: So he walked through one room filled with children to slaughter the room of children next door?

  87. 87.

    Kay

    debbie May 26, 2022 at 12:18 PM

    I don’t know but there were two adjoining rooms and all the children who were shot were in one of them and if the 4th grader is correct the gunman went from one room to another thu the middle door.
    I’m not defending the police- it would be idiotic to leave him in a locked empty room regardless even if they believed there was a (entire) wall
    between but they could have believed that.
    They’re definitely lying about something.

  88. 88.

    Baud

    ‘@WaterGirl

    Delete would be even more popular if I could delete other people’s comments.

  89. 89.

    Steeplejack

    ‘@Bettty Cracker:

    > “I miss stupid rants like that from my wingnut relatives.”

    I am a very light, reluctant user of Facebook. Turned on my RWNJ brother’s notifications because when I house- and dog-sat for him while he was on his motorcycle expeditions it was the easiest way to keep track of him. Never turned it off, so I still get his occasional nutty posts. As I joke with my other brother, the squire of Sighthound Hall, I also maintain the link because it’s likely to be the way that we find about Mom’s death (unexpected and years in the future ). RWNJ bro and Mom both live in Las Vegas.

  90. 90.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    ‘@Kay:

    “It’s time to die.”

    That’s sadism. He knew what he was doing. Fuck assholes like Abbot trying to blame this on “mental illness”

  91. 91.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    ‘@Baud

    Silly Baud, that’s what the Pie Filter is for ; )

    Although, I guess that’s missing atm

  92. 92.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    ‘@Kay:
    @debbie:

    Speaking generally, I hope people don’t focus exclusively on the local police’s performance instead of the fact that this guy was able to have this weapon in the first place

    I have a feeling that right wing gun nuts who are normally very pro-police would love for that to be the focus

  93. 93.

    Kay

    debbie May 26, 2022 at 12:26 PM
    @ Kay: So he walked through one room filled with children to slaughter the room of children next door?”

    No, I think one of the rooms was empty so all the children were on the other side of the interior door from the gunman. Gunman locked in empty room that adjoins room with children and teachers. It could actually be worse. Police could have driven him into the empty room, which is what I think happened because they said that immediately after the event. They changed their story from them “barricading” him in the room to him barricading himself in the room. By “barricade” they mean “someone locked the door”.

  94. 94.

    CaseyL

    Students walking out and not coming back until Congress passes gun control legislation is a good idea. Not the teachers: they’d just be fired.

    It would be need to be coordinated, nationwide, and not stop.

  96. 96.

    zhena gogolia

    I joined the Brady Campaign as soon as it was formed. How many decades ago was that? I thought Sandy Hook would change something. I thought Parkland and the kids would change something. I was wrong. In today’s NYT, a reader writes in something like, Joe Biden said all the right things, but why won’t he just tell us what we can do? VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS, IDIOT, THAT’S WHAT YOU CAN DO

  97. 97.

    Tazj

    ‘@CaseyL Some high schools had walk outs today. David Hogg announced there would be a nationwide walk out June 11th.

  98. 98.

    debbie

    ‘@ Kay: Thanks. I’m having issues picturing the layout.

    @ Goku: Baloney. The police are our final line of defense. They should be scrutinized very, very closely.

    The guy had the gun because it was permitted by the state laws. Period.

  99. 99.

    CaseyL

    Tazj – Good! But they need to do more than one-day strike. Hard to do, since the school year is ending soon, and/or has already ended in some places.

  100. 100.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    ‘@debbie

    “Baloney. The police are our final line of defense. They should be scrutinized very, very closely.

    The guy had the gun because it was permitted by the state laws. Period.”

    I don’t necessarily disagree with any of that. I said above that I hope that the police aren’t exclusively focused on; that it becomes the story instead of the wider picture that there’s too many dangerous guns in too many hands that shouldn’t have them, leading to horrific tragedies like this

    And I’m not saying that’s currently happening either, just that it could

  101. 101.

    MisterDancer

    ‘@Goku: We need to tie them together, and STOP SWEATING WHAT RIGHT-WINGERS’LL SAY.

    Nothing we do will evade their propaganda mills. So we might as well be direct, and honest, and use this to build coalitions.

    I promise you, as someone who’s worked for LEOs? The last thing gun nuts want, is actual Police Reform. And that’s why, in the face of this tragedy, it’s even more critical to connect the loose gun laws to how police abuse their powers, and argue for systemic reforms that actually reduce the risk of guns from both LEOs _and_ private citizens.

    And that takes actually making the argument, and fighting for it.

  102. 102.

    Suzanne

    So I do not do school architecture, but the firms that I worked for do a lot of K-12, including a lot in Texas. I do medical facilities, which also have employee safety, active shooter (and ransomware) concerns, so we do a lot of secure-environment training together. I actually do a lot of behavioral health, which has some of the most (maybe the most) security problems in the healthcare space, apart from some very specialized laboratories. So I may have some light to shed here.

    The “man trap” idea is really not the worst thing ever. We build them in behavioral facilities all the time (technically called “sallyports”), but they don’t prevent armed ingress without a magnetometer. They prevent egress/elopement. The locked-exit idea is also a good one, and is very standard, but the issue is that these doors need to function as emergency exits with panic hardware on the interior. They can be made to alarm when opened. If staff ever open a door and prop it for whatever reason, it’s no help at all. “Hardened” exterior walls or corridor walls are good but incredibly expensive. Bullet-resistant construction is expensive.

    A previous thought I saw suggested by someone was for curving corridors, so that gunfire couldn’t go all the way down a corridor, or various cross-corridor doors. The big reason they don’t do that is two-fold. The first reason is that curved construction is more difficult and expensive. Not just the walls or the structure, but for all of the ducts, electrical conduit, etc. Any time we do a curving corridor, we add a pretty big cost premium. But the biggest reason is functional: curving corridors, and cross-corridor doors, block visual surveillance of children by adults. And schools (and hospitals) need to be constantly visually monitoring.

  103. 103.

    Kay

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) May 26, 2022 at 12:38 PM

    I think police response across the board in the US is influenced by the proliferation of guns. They’re afraid and fear makes people do stupid things. The two things are connected. The more guns there are the more their response becomes excessive, irrational and counterproductive. It’s a cycle. There are 15,000 people in that town and they have a SWAT. They spend 40% of their municipal budget on police- excluding schools, which are probably the biggest expenditure.
    More guns = more police – it’s an arms race.

  104. 104.

    MisterDancer

    ‘@Kay that’s another very good point. We know the “War on Drugs” drove horrific levels of militarization of LEOs, and that level of fear has not been reduced.

    That said — this is exactly the kind of situation a SWAT team is designed to manage. That it appears they did not should be a critical point, among others, we have a clear moral calling to question and push on.

    If SWAT can’t do their job, why the fuck are we paying for ’em? What’s the actual goal of all these guns, and how many are enough to keep people safe?

    We know the answer is “not this many,” yet we have to make the case around this, and as you say, align it to why LEOs struggle to level-set engagements.

  105. 105.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    ‘@Kay:

    Why don’t LE groups try to exert more pressure on GOP pols who pass these lax gun laws? Why don’t the supposed “Law and Order” pro-police GOP pols listen to LEs on guns?

    You and @MisterDancer make good points about tying police corruption/violence/militarization w/ gun violence

  106. 106.

    raven

    Kay MisterDancer. Treat Williams (Prince of the City) is ibnan episode of the new David Simon “We Own This City” about the Baltimore police scandal. He frames a lot based on the War on Drugs.

  107. 107.

    Ohio Mom

    June 11 for a student walkout?
    All the public schools around here will be long closed for summer. Colleges are on summer session, which has a much reduced enrollment.

    I like the idea of walk-outs but the timing is all wrong for a lot of the country.

  108. 108.

    Kay

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) May 26, 2022 at 1:01 PM

    Because what’s the response to gun violence? More police, bigger budgets, “tactical units”, SWAT, helicopters. If we all have AR 15s police need to keep upping the “defense” so they retain the upper hand.
    Just in my time as a lawyer it’s changed. Police used to walk up to people and arrest them. Now they sit in the car, have the person walk toward them and drop to the ground. Only when the person is prone, spread eagled, do they approach to arrest, handcuff, etc. They’re afraid of getting shot.
    So what should the police budget be? It’s 40% of the total in that town and they just lost 21 people. Should it be 70%? Will that work?
    It’s the guns. The guns drive the whole accelerating cycle.

  109. 109.

    Jinchi

    ‘@zhena gogolia: “VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS, IDIOT, THAT’S WHAT YOU CAN DO”

    In an interview yesterday, Parkland survivor David Hogg, described asking the adults in the room to act to protect school kids. The Parkland survivors were told that they were almost 18, just get out and vote for people who’ll change the law. And then record numbers of young people came out in 2018 and 2020 to do just that.

    And here we are today. Listening to a woman like Kristin Sinema tell us that she’s very sorry, but it’s not her problem to solve.

    “Vote for Democrats” cannot be the only answer when someone asks what they can do. At best it can be the final answer. Our wretched gun laws are not the fault of Democratic voters not ‘trying’ hard enough.

  110. 110.

    zhena gogolia

    ‘@jinchi: If more people voted for Democrats the way Repubs vote because of abortion, Synema would not be a problem.
    What’s your solution? I haven’t heard anything that works. The Parkland march led to what exactly?
    And yes, our wretched gun laws are exactly the fault of voters not trying hard enough. Exactly.

  111. 111.

    zhena gogolia

    I guess the answer is to elect more Republicans! Great idea, Mr. Hogg!
    This is why I’ve stayed out of this discussion. Waste of time and energy.

  112. 112.

    MisterDancer

    ‘@Goku: LEOs are, more often than they should be, also deeply into gun culture. I know this from personal/anecdotal experience, and I’ve seen various studies that lean into this direction, over the years.

    This is _part_ of why I say gun nuts don’t want real police reform — and LEOs are more willing to get more “toys” than to figure out how to de-escalate situations. Even when you get police leadership who’ll advocate for gun control, my gut says many of the rank-and-file are fundamentally opposed.

    They are more invested in the power vested in them, than in doing what it takes to be safe. Esp. because, as we just saw, too many of their leadership won’t send them into truly dangerous situations, AND will protect their reps when they don’t.

    This is, again, part of why tying these issue together is powerful, because the LEO and gun fan cultures are closely tied together — and thus also closely bound to the GOP.

  113. 113.

    CaseyL

    jinchi – Sinema isn’t really a Dem: she was a Green (and the US Green Party is nothing but grifters and ratfuckers) who ran as a Dem because it was convenient – like Bernie Sanders, she wanted to use the existing infrastructure to fund and organize her run for office. But she is completely corrupt, was quickly bought by the GOP’s donors, and I’d be surprised if she wins another term.

    And, yes, because US politics are completely broken, the only thing most of us can do is keep voting for Democrats who do want a government that functions well for everyone. The GOP wants a white, patriarchal Christian nation that tyrannizes everyone. It is that stark.

  114. 114.

    MisterDancer

    ‘@raven: Thanks! That said…as a fan of THE WIRE, whew! I ain’t ready to put myself through another Simon emotional wringer, right now.

    All this is a little close to home, yanno?

    But yes, I’m aware of “We Own This City” and glad that folx like Jamie Hector are getting work. :)

  115. 115.

    cain

    ‘@Baud – you know that whole make the world medieval again is all going to start in Hungary – find themselves a fascist and then work their magic. They of course already have Poland. How fun, evangelicals working with catholics to make the world a shit place.

  116. 116.

    cain

    ‘@ The Moar You Know
    No way – Don McClean is a rightwinger? Damn, you’d think with all those lyrics he’d have gone in a different direction.

  117. 117.

    Suzanne

    ‘@MisterDancer
    “LEOs are, more often than they should be, also deeply into gun culture.”

    A lot of cops and military become cops and military because they love playing with guns and aren’t otherwise employable.

  118. 118.

    debbie

    ‘@ zhena gogolia May 26, 2022 at 1:24 PM

    I heard David Hogg interviewed yesterday. He said he and his schoolmates worked with both Republican and Democratic state lawmakers to get red flag laws enacted in FL. In no way was he suggesting to work with Republicans. If you follow his Twitter feed, you would see he gets all kinds of grief from RWNJs.

  119. 119.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    ‘@Jinchi:

    I’m concerned this will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, people will conclude that voting doesn’t actually change anything etc, that inflation is exclusively the Dems’ fault, allowing the GOP to take over and control the federal government for several years to come, further entrenching themselves, decimating what’s left of the social safety net, or even worse as evidenced by the “Great Replacement” entering the Republican mainstream. I look at places like Hungary, Russia, and the Philippines, and shudder

  120. 120.

    cain

    ‘@Kay might appreciate this – my wife has with others successfully lead her union to a successful deal with the school district. A lot of focus on rewarding teachers who stay in their jobs despite teachers leaving, secondly give compensation to bi and many lingual teachers who are called upon to translate.
    18 months in the making, 12 hour days at least once a week – I never worked that hard even working for a mega corp with high compensation.

    Asking teachers to do even more while being paid a pittance – some of the ideas some of these right wingers talk about – former law enforcement etc, would all be paid more than the teachers they are protecting.

  121. 121.

    Jinchi

    ‘@zhena gogolia

    Any politician or activist who answers the question they way you suggest will simply alienate voters and drive down turnout. What do you say to the woman who responds that she’s been faithfully voting for Democrats for 20 years, or someone who lives in blood red Alabama, or the child who has no right to vote at all?

    Because when you respond to the question ‘what can we do’ with the contemptuous “VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS, IDIOT”, you’re telling them that they’re screwed and it’s their own fault.

    @zhena gogolia “The Parkland march led to what exactly?”

    Here’s Hoggs answer to that:

    “you know, after Parkland, we raised the age to 21 to buy an assault rifle in the state of Florida. And on top of that, we created an extremist protection order law and we met Republicans in the middle. And there are some things in the bill that we passed that I do not agree with. But ultimately, we met and we actually did something. And it was something that saved lives. Did it eradicate gun violence entirely? Definitely not. But it did have a reduction. In an American democracy and a representative democracy like we have in our country, we do things through compromise and advocate for them, even if it’s a reduction and not a total eradication. We need to take a comprehensive, bipartisan, public health-based approach to addressing this issue and take just one step – just one. That’s all I’m asking for.”

    https://www.npr.org/2022/05/25/1101141255/another-senseless-act-of-gun-violence-hits-an-elementary-school-in-texas

    Hogg is also working to get people elected who’ll pass stronger gun laws. But it’s the difference between asking ‘what can I do now’ and ‘what can I do for the long term?’

  122. 122.

    zhena gogolia

    ‘@jinchi: Yes, Joe Biden is responsible for all this. That’s what the letter writer implied.

  123. 123.

    debbie

    David Hogg and others started their work ahead of Biden’s election. Please don’t give them short shrift.

  124. 124.

    zhena gogolia

    ‘@debbie: I was talking originally about a letter writer to the NYT who was complaining that Joe Biden didn’t tell this person what to do. I suggested that this was a disingenuous complaint, since everyone knows what they need to do. It was jinchi who introduced Hogg and implied that he was saying that voting was futile.

  125. 125.

    Jinchi

    I never implied that Hogg said voting was futile. He was a child (17) at the time of the Parkland shooting, asking the people in power to get off their asses.

    They replied by telling him to get out and vote. That is not an acceptable answer to a victim of trauma. They want immediate action.

  126. 126.

    zhena gogolia

    ‘@jinchi: I’ve been wanting immediate action since 1981.
    Make that 1980, when my mother was murdered.

  127. 127.

    debbie

    ‘@ zhena gogolia:

    Okay, I lost the thread of that conversation. Sorry.

    I do know, as I’ve said, Hogg doesn’t belittle voting. He likely gets frustrated that voting doesn’t automatically fix things, like we all do. But he and his classmates’ lobbying is good lobbying and anything that counteracts the @#!$ lobbying efforts of the NRA is to be supported.

    Separately, apparently Jimmy Kimmel ran a 9-minute pre-monologue about the shooting which was censored by the TX affiliate. If anyone feels the need to see what he said, it’s on youtube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF_GofUF_y4

  129. 129.

    Feathers

    Republicans have gotten where they are by showing up reliably and in large numbers for every election since 1980 when Saint Ronnie won. They didn’t walk away from him in 1984 when abortion was still legal and the Civil Rights Act remained in full force.

    The short term thinking of the left hurts my brain.

    ETA: Every election, federal and local.

  131. 131.

    Bobby Thomson

    Why is anyone surprised Don McLean is right wing? His most famous song is a rant asking the Rolling Stones to get off his lawn.

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