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You are here: Home / Open Threads / ‘Stupidly, Perhaps…’ (Open Thread)

‘Stupidly, Perhaps…’ (Open Thread)

by Betty Cracker|  June 14, 202212:17 pm| 277 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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Remember the goon who carried a Confederate battle flag into the U.S. Capitol on January 6? He’s 52-year-old Kevin Seefried of Laurel, Delaware, and he brought his 22-year-old son Hunter on his insurrection adventure. Father and son are on trial this week.

Officer Eugene Goodman, the cop who heroically distracted the Seefrieds, a dead-eyed QAnon zombie, the painted fool in the horned headdress and others so members of Congress would have time to evacuate the chambers, testified in the Seefrieds’ trial yesterday. [WaPo]

U.S. Capitol Police Officer Eugene Goodman testified in court for the first time Monday about leading rioters away from fleeing senators during the Jan. 6, 2021, attack, describing how he ran up a staircase after a tense confrontation that began with a member of the mob who was carrying a Confederate battle flag.

Goodman, whose actions inside the building that day were captured on a video that went viral, said the man jabbed at him with the butt end of the flag and yelled: “I’m not leaving. Where are the members at? Where are they counting the votes?”

That man — 52-year-old Kevin Seefried — was quickly joined by a crowd that pursued Goodman up the stairs and away from a hallway that led to a Senate entrance used by Republicans, staffers and the ceremonial offices of Vice President Mike Pence.

The Seefrieds pleaded not guilty to charges that they intended to obstruct Congress, which is a felony. They aren’t contesting “misdemeanor trespassing or picketing and parading on restricted Capitol grounds” charges, according to the article.

The father’s defense attorney said, “While it was a mistake, a mistake Kevin Seefried has regretted ever since, he did not go in because Congress was meeting or counting the votes. He did not go in to stop anyone from certifying the election.”

The son’s attorney said his client didn’t follow politics and did not even realize votes were being counted that day. He offered a “boys will be boys” explanation: “Hunter acted ‘stupidly, perhaps — in terms of the excitement of a young man — but not corruptly with any intent to block the certification of the vote.'”

They acted stupidly and seditiously, and there’s no “perhaps” about it. Here’s hoping both Seefrieds are convicted and tossed into the pokey for the maximum sentence. Since it’s a bench trial, their fate is solely in the hands of Trump-appointed U.S. District Judge Trevor N. McFadden.

Open thread.

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Reader Interactions

277Comments

  1. 1.

    hells littlest angel

    June 14, 2022 at 8:22 am

    Robbing a bank? Honestly, I didn’t even know banks had money in them! I was just … over-exuberant.

  2. 2.

    Spanky

    June 14, 2022 at 8:22 am

    I think it’s a pretty bad sign for your case when your defense attorney falls back to the “well, he’s an idiot” defense. But IANAL.

  3. 3.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 8:22 am

    I’m not leaving. Where are the members at? Where are they counting the votes?”

    “I thought they were voting on renaming a post office. I was there to stop that, not overturn the election.”

  4. 4.

    Betty Cracker

    June 14, 2022 at 8:25 am

    McFadden will probably acquit them of the felony charge and give them a slap on the wrist for the misdemeanors. He’s the judge who has publicly criticized the DoJ for treating insurrectionists more harshly than BLM protesters.

  5. 5.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    June 14, 2022 at 8:28 am

    I read somewhere yesterday that McFadden was showing signs of sympathy. I hope that’s wrong. If Seefreid Sr did ask where the votes were being counted, that would seem to undercut his defense.

    I’ve found my attitude to the Confederate flag changing over the last decade. I used to see it as a regional symbol with a sort of nostalgic feel, which I’m now embarrassed about. Even aside from the way it signals racism, hostility, etc, it’s the flag of traitor losers. Now that’s embarrassing.

  6. 6.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 8:35 am

    “It’s a long tradition in my family to say ‘Where are they counting the votes?’ to mean ‘Where’s the rest rooms?’ Ask anyone.”

  7. 7.

    rikyrah

    June 14, 2022 at 8:36 am

    Good Morning Everyone

  8. 8.

    Ohio Mom

    June 14, 2022 at 8:36 am

    It is not a new observation but contrast these fools with the civil rights protestors of yore. The civil rights protestors knew they were breaking the law, the entire idea was to break the law peacefully to bring attention to how wrong the laws were. They expected to be arrested (and worse, physically attacked).

    These MAGA “tourists” knew they were trying to stop the vote from being counted but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did not grasp at all that they were breaking the law, let alone committing a felony.

    Not excusing them at all (hoping they serve real time) just underlining how ignorant and gullible they are. Yes, full of white entitlement too too but mostly thoughtless and dumb, dumb, dumb.

  9. 9.

    rikyrah

    June 14, 2022 at 8:36 am

    I thought that Blue Lives Mattered

  10. 10.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 8:37 am

    @rikyrah:

    Good morning.

  11. 11.

    geg6

    June 14, 2022 at 8:39 am

    @Spanky:

    IANAL too, but…it’s a bad sign.

  12. 12.

    dr. bloor

    June 14, 2022 at 8:41 am

    Since it’s a bench trial, their fate is solely in the hands of Trump-appointed U.S. District Judge Trevor N. McFadden

    So, everybody walks.

    ETA we could have done much worse than McFadden, but I’ll be surprised if he hangs the felony charge on them.

  13. 13.

    Raoul Paste

    June 14, 2022 at 8:43 am

    Oh for God sake. They just came from a “stop the steal” rally!

  14. 14.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 8:47 am

    Repeating and expanded upon from last night. FYI.

    Entire first season of For All Mankind is free for anyone to stream for at least a week, beginning yesterday. No subscription of any sort to Apple+ needed, nor is it necessary to be connected via an Apple device.

    However it requires using or creating an Apple ID (which can be obtained without providing credit card info) to do so. First episode here.

  15. 15.

    WereBear

    June 14, 2022 at 8:47 am

    @Raoul Paste: A heedless inconsideration of consequences is a hallmark of criminal mindset.

    Venn diagram of criminality, MAGA susceptibility, and your local RWNJ, is left to the mind of the reader.

  16. 16.

    artem1s

    June 14, 2022 at 8:49 am

    WTH was someone from Delaware carrying around a traitor’s flag? PLEASE start teaching some Critical Race Theory in our public schools. At least then the students will know who won the damn war and which side their state fought on.

  17. 17.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 14, 2022 at 8:51 am

    Pouring gasoline on a fire:

    New Ohio law allows teachers to carry guns in schools without a permit

    Ohio’s permitless gun carry law for “qualifying” adults went into effect on Monday – a measure that would lift restrictions on school teachers, custodians and bus drivers from carrying firearms at work.

    After Governor Mike DeWine announced he signed House Bill 99, which lowers the required training hours for armed personnel from 728 hours to 24 hours, DeWine said he still preferred law enforcement officers to carry the guns at schools.

    Signed into law after 19 children and two teachers were killed at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, the legislation no longer makes it a requirement for Ohioans aged 21 and older to complete eight hours of the handgun training course to carry and conceal a firearm. And it eliminates the requirement for gun carriers to tell police officers they have a concealed weapon on them, though they must say if they are asked.

    “My office worked with the general assembly to remove hundreds of hours of curriculum irrelevant to school safety and to ensure training requirements were specific to a school environment and contained significant scenario-based training,” DeWine said in a statement after the bill passed earlier this month.

    He thanked lawmakers “for passing this bill to protect Ohio children and teachers”.

    Stupid is as stupid does.

  18. 18.

    japa21

    June 14, 2022 at 8:51 am

    GOP should be happy. They have been calling for Hunter to go to trial. //

  19. 19.

    Ken

    June 14, 2022 at 8:53 am

    @hells littlest angel: More like “Robbing a bank? Is that was those other fellows were doing? I just happened to break down the doors with them because I wanted to open an account and get a free toaster.”

  20. 20.

    raven

    June 14, 2022 at 8:53 am

    @NotMax:  too bad it sucks

  21. 21.

    Betty Cracker

    June 14, 2022 at 8:53 am

    @NotMax: We recently watched seasons 1 and 2 of For All Mankind. Will probably wait for all the season 3 episodes to drop so I can binge on my own schedule

    @raven: My husband basically shares your opinion. I’m enjoying it though.

  22. 22.

    germy shoemangler

    June 14, 2022 at 8:54 am

    Keep an eye on this. It's a Trevor McFadden bench trial and he has made it quite clear he wants to treat Jan6ers leniently. I wouldn't be surprised if he found dad not guilty. https://t.co/TJzXucUmxW

    — emptywheel (@emptywheel) June 13, 2022

  23. 23.

    catclub

    June 14, 2022 at 8:56 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: It will be really bad the day that a teacher is the shooter.

  24. 24.

    Spanky

    June 14, 2022 at 8:57 am

    @artem1s: FTR, Delaware was a slave state until December 6, 1865.

  25. 25.

    catclub

    June 14, 2022 at 8:58 am

    @japa21: ​
     Not just Hunter, Hunter from Delaware.

  26. 26.

    catclub

    June 14, 2022 at 9:00 am

    @Spanky: ​
     However,

    During the Civil War, Delaware was a slave state that remained in the Union. (Delaware voters voted not to secede on January 3, 1861.) Delaware had been the first state to embrace the Union by ratifying the Constitution, and would be the last to leave it, according to Delaware’s governor at the time

  27. 27.

    Betty Cracker

    June 14, 2022 at 9:01 am

    A tough love story from The Daily Beast — mom kicks Patriot Front son out of her basement:

    Amsden said that after her son was released from jail, he told her he’d continue to stand with the group, so she delivered an ultimatum. “I told him, ‘Well, then you can’t live here. You can choose between Patriot Front and your family.’ And he’s like, ‘Well, I can’t quit Patriot Front.’ I’m like, ‘Well, then you’ve just chosen. So pack your stuff and get out of my house.’”

    I don’t know that he lived in her basement; just going with the prevailing stereotype. Good for her for kicking the lout out of the nest.

  28. 28.

    germy shoemangler

    June 14, 2022 at 9:02 am

    Four Republican candidates for New York governor faced off Monday in their first televised debate, trying to bruise each other – and Democrats – with two weeks to go until the state’s primary election.

    Some of the sharpest exchanges of the night came between U.S. Rep. Lee Zeldin and businessman Harry Wilson, who has said he didn’t vote for Donald Trump in 2020.

    Zeldin repeatedly assailed Wilson as a “Never Trumper” and a “Republican in name only.”

    The Republican field also includes former Westchester County Executive Rob Astorino, businessman Harry Wilson and Andrew Giuliani, the son of New York City’s former mayor.

    Giuliani, a former adviser to Trump, appeared in a separate television studio than the other candidates because he was barred from being on the same stage after refusing to submit proof he’s been vaccinated against COVID-19.

    Giuliani said if elected, he will restore the jobs of public workers fired for not getting the vaccine. He pledged Monday to empower the police and called for a return of the “stop and frisk” policing tactic in New York City, which was scaled back by police after a judge found it had violated the civil rights of many law-abiding Black people.

    Giuliani praised Trump as a “great president” and pledged to do for New York what Trump did for the country.

    https://wnyt.com/politics/ny-gop-governor-candidates-debate-over-crime-economy/6499119/?cat=10114

  29. 29.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    June 14, 2022 at 9:03 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’m just horrified at the idea of arming teachers, ie saving shooters from having to bring a gun themselves. I’m trying to picture it. The teacher would HAVE to wear it all the time. You can’t leave it in a drawer or your purse with kids of any age around.

  30. 30.

    Betty Cracker

    June 14, 2022 at 9:06 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Yep. It’s an incandescently stupid idea.

  31. 31.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 9:07 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    Good on mom.

  32. 32.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 14, 2022 at 9:14 am

    @germy shoemangler: 43 YO graduate of Wheaton College (and UVa law school), and of course a member of the Federalist Society. Looks like he was one of trump’s earliest appointments

  33. 33.

    WaterGirl

    June 14, 2022 at 9:16 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s payback time.

  34. 34.

    Thor Heyerdahl

    June 14, 2022 at 9:22 am

    I checked the mail yesterday and there was a USPS envelope in my mailbox. The wool hat (toque in Canadianese) from the knitted goods auction for Ukraine is lovely and I look forward to many winters of enjoying wearing it.

    Thank you.

  35. 35.

    RobertB

    June 14, 2022 at 9:22 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: I guess that weaselly-ass DeWine has regressed to the mean.

  36. 36.

    E.

    June 14, 2022 at 9:23 am

    Wikipedia says he left the Episcopal Church when they decided to allow same-sex marriage. He also used religious liberty as the reason for prohibiting minors from getting vaccinated without their parents’ consent.

  37. 37.

    eversor

    June 14, 2022 at 9:24 am

    You see a lot of “what about BLM?” on socially conservative sites.

    There were really a couple classes of people here:

    In the first group you had the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, 3%r’s who knew damn well what they were doing and that it was highly illegal. They just thought they could pull it off and they were going to get some form of official support at it from Trump.

    In the second you had the “what about BLM” types who were convinced that you don’t get arrested for “protests”. This group is still convinced that nobody got arrested for the looting, arson, and other idiocy at those protests. The thing is people did, but those were all state level arrests and didn’t really make national news. This was screwing with the feds which is incredibly dumb. But your average Fox news viewer doesn’t know this. Furthermore a lot of these people have never been to a protest and so are not familiar with ketteling (this is when the cops funnel people into a place) followed up by mass arrests or what happens. You don’t see that on TV. But here in DC everyone knows about it.

    In the third group you had the holy warriors who actually thought this was gods will. Keep in mind that Jan 6 was riddled with crosses, prayer groups, Christian battle flags. Also that Christian leaders did the ground work for it with the Jericho March. This was as much a Christian riot as it was a white riot, Republican riot, or Trump riot.

    In the fourth you just have genuine idiots who were there for the rally and then got sucked into the whole mess.

    There’s different levels of intent and actual malice here. Which is why you have on the one extreme people in military kit, below them people who prepped with the Jericho March there to do gods will, below them idiots who though there actually are no consequences for this, and below them the genuine idiots who were there and got sucked in.

    Of course now they are all claiming to be idiots and being an idiot doesn’t excuse it.

  38. 38.

    H.E.Wolf

    June 14, 2022 at 9:29 am

    “The excitement of a young man” is proffered as exculpatory.

    I know what I think of that line of argument. And my language on the subject would make a Glasgow football fan sound mealy-mouthed.

  39. 39.

    rikyrah

    June 14, 2022 at 9:30 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

     

    After Governor Mike DeWine announced he signed House Bill 99, which lowers the required training hours for armed personnel from 728 hours to 24 hours,

     

    RIDICULOUS

  40. 40.

    Steve in the ATL

    June 14, 2022 at 9:30 am

    @germy shoemangler:

     

    Giuliani praised Trump as a “great president” and pledged THREATENED to do for New York what Trump did for the country.

  41. 41.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 9:32 am

    Lookee there. A lying attorney. They didn’t intend to obstruct Congress, my ass.

  42. 42.

    Steve in the ATL

    June 14, 2022 at 9:33 am

    @Betty Cracker:

     

    incandescently stupid

    Did you get this from my performance review from last year?

  43. 43.

    lowtechcyclist

    June 14, 2022 at 9:34 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: And even if the teacher wore it nonstop, it wouldn’t be that hard for a student to grab it in an unguarded moment, and start shooting.

    I’ll be eager to know who they’ll want to give guns to as the solution to the problem when that finally happens.

  44. 44.

    Betty Cracker

    June 14, 2022 at 9:34 am

    Huh. CNN says the January 6th committee postponed tomorrow’s hearing without explanation.

  45. 45.

    Steve in the ATL

    June 14, 2022 at 9:34 am

    @debbie: 

    A lying attorney

    The preferred phrasing in the profession is “zealously representing his client”

  46. 46.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 9:34 am

    ‘@Betty Cracker

    Have been curious about it since it was first announced, but not enough to justify in my mind giving Apple free access to identifying or contact info.Same reason never explored signing on for Apple+ (whether free trial or paid). Neither desire nor need the entirety of the Appleverse which is inseparable from it.

  47. 47.

    lowtechcyclist

    June 14, 2022 at 9:35 am

    @H.E.Wolf: “The excitement of a young man” is proffered as exculpatory.

    “Excitable boy,” they all said.

  48. 48.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 9:35 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    DeWine’s really stirred the hornet’s nest here, so to speak. All to appease the RWNJ faction of the party.

  49. 49.

    Betty

    June 14, 2022 at 9:37 am

    @Betty Cracker: Wouldn’t he have to find Officer Goodman’s testimony to not be credible? I can see the son walking maybe. Who knows.

  50. 50.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    June 14, 2022 at 9:37 am

    @Betty Cracker:

     

    BREAKING: Jan. 6 committee abruptly postpones Wednesday hearing."There's no big deal," panel member Rep. Lofgren tells @Morning_Joe. "Putting together the video exhibits is an exhausting exercise for our very small video staff … it's just too much to put it all together." pic.twitter.com/fdtTo2bmqD— MSNBC (@MSNBC) June 14, 2022

  51. 51.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 9:38 am

    @germy shoemangler:

    I cannot imagine anyone even slightly Trumpish getting far in a New York governor’s race.

  52. 52.

    Tony Jay

    June 14, 2022 at 9:38 am

    It’s super nice of those Patriot Front dark-LARPers to give everyone a concise spoiler of where the far-Right wingnutosphere will be going ideologically over the next decade. In their eyes they’re not traitors, and they don’t have any responsibility to treat people outside of their specific in-group with the respect due to fellow countrynmen, because they’re not fellow countrymen.

    Rather, they’re sovereign citizens of a white majority settler state called ‘America’, a state their ancestors established by force and bequeathed to them on the understanding that they would maintain racial supremacy, while the ‘United States of America’ are just a (failed) attempt to administer the conquered territories according to democratic principles, an attempt that has been undermined by the dilution of their rights and privileges and perverted by the extension of the franchise to groups who should have remained subservient.

    When people say “If it comes down to democracy or power, they’ll choose power“, these numpties are happy to explain the mythology that ‘justifies’ such a choice and makes their actions ‘patriotic’. Give it some time (not that long) and I suspect some version of this Blood and Soil nonsense will be an open part of the GOP platform.

    And soon after, it’ll be Tory boilerplate, only with more vowels.

  53. 53.

    Betty

    June 14, 2022 at 9:39 am

    @rikyrah: More than ridiculous, it is dangerous. What a country!

  54. 54.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 9:41 am

    @Tony Jay:

    I’m having problems picturing all of them in that truck, “packed like sardines” as has been said. Rubbing up against each other? Gross, like the NYC subway at rush hour. No wonder that’s the preferred method of travel for incels.

  55. 55.

    Betty

    June 14, 2022 at 9:41 am

    @Tony Jay: Excellent summary.

  56. 56.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 14, 2022 at 9:42 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: @Betty Cracker:

    These gun fetishists all think they are John Wick when they are really corner boys from The Wire, with the same predictable results.

  57. 57.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 9:43 am

    ‘@Dorothy A. Winsor

    Second postponement due to labor.

    //

  58. 58.

    WaterGirl

    June 14, 2022 at 9:43 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: That doesn’t pass the smell test from a group that has so far pulled off what they have.

  59. 59.

    Betty Cracker

    June 14, 2022 at 9:44 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Well, I can believe that. It must have been quite a scramble for them after Stepien backed out of live testimony. The video team deserves a ton of credit for putting together taped excerpts. I don’t know that live testimony would have been any better than that.

  60. 60.

    Barry

    June 14, 2022 at 9:47 am

    @lowtechcyclist: “I’ll be eager to know who they’ll want to give guns to as the solution to the problem when that finally happens.”

    Fill the schools with police.

  61. 61.

    BC in Illinois

    June 14, 2022 at 9:49 am

    A bit of OT news, and an observation.

    From a Guardian reporter

    JUST IN: Jan. 6 committee says hearing on June 15 at 10a ET — Wednesday’s hearing — has been postponed. No explanation at the moment.

    The explanation given, attributed to Zoe Lofgren, is that the video people need more time.

    But the initial comments are overwhelmingly doom, “oh, no!”, pounding head on table, disappointment, etc. My, initial reaction — based on some experience of having worked on projects, worked on committees — is that things take longer than expected.

    And it one has the opinion that the committee is doing things well — which I do — then I can wait another day to see them at their best.

    ETA: Or, in other words, what Dorothy Windsor said at #50.

  62. 62.

    Subcommandante Yakbreath

    June 14, 2022 at 9:50 am

    It isn’t known as Slower Delaware among the cognoscenti for nothing…

  63. 63.

    UncleEbeneezer

    June 14, 2022 at 9:51 am

    @NotMax: It’s totally worth it, imo.  Best show on tv and the only one that we literally talk about and anticipate when waiting for new seasons/episodes.

    AppleTV is also a pretty good investment.  Between FAM, Severance, Ted Lasso and Dickinson, they have some pretty great stuff.  At some point you will probably be able to just rent For All Mankind without AppleTV which would also work, because if you like it, you’ll probably want to binge it.

  64. 64.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 9:53 am

    ‘@WaterGirl

    Rule of thumb for video editing is to allow 10 hours in the booth for every one hour of finished output. As there’s hundreds of hours of video to be reviewed (and re-viewed), excerpts chosen from and thence agreed upon privately by the committee to be exhibited, and only a finite amount of equipment and technicians to accomplish the task, doesn’t necessarily smell funny.

  65. 65.

    raven

    June 14, 2022 at 9:54 am

    @Betty Cracker:  Wernher von Braun... please.

  66. 66.

    lowtechcyclist

    June 14, 2022 at 9:55 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I’ve found my attitude to the Confederate flag changing over the last decade. I used to see it as a regional symbol with a sort of nostalgic feel, which I’m now embarrassed about. Even aside from the way it signals racism, hostility, etc, it’s the flag of traitor losers. Now that’s embarrassing.

    My attitude changed back in the early days of the Internet when it finally became possible to find the founding documents of the Confederate states without having to dig through the depths of a research library somewhere.

    I guess they all must have taken their cue from Jefferson’s intro to the Declaration of Independence, where he said “a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

    So all eleven seceding states produced documents where they told the world why they were attempting to quit the Union.  And every last one of them mentions the perpetuation of slavery either as the primary reason, or the sole reason, for their secession. (Mostly the latter.)

    Before that time, people could get away with arguing that it was really about states’ rights, or that slavery was on the decline anyway and the Confederate states just wanted the time to let it happen gradually, because how the hell were you going to prove them wrong?  Unless you had a book handy that quoted extensively from the primary sources, you were out of luck.

    But now the primary sources were online and irrefutable: the Confederacy was about keeping persons of African descent in bondage and servitude forever, full stop.  No flag representing such a movement could be regarded as representing any sort of glorious ‘lost cause’ because that cause was as shameful and abhorrent as any cause could possibly be.

  67. 67.

    O. Felix Culpa

    June 14, 2022 at 9:56 am

    @NotMax:

    Agreed. Plus the staff had to scramble like crazy yesterday after Stepien’s last-minute cancellation, and they must be exhausted. Kudos to them for pulling it off. Both the first and second hearings were impressive and ran beautifully without a hitch, which almost unheard of.

  68. 68.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 9:56 am

    @Tony Jay:

    Give it some time (not that long) and I suspect some version of this Blood and Soil nonsense will be an open part of the GOP platform.

    It’s already happened. This SPLC poll shows that 7 in 10 Republicans think to some extent that critical replacement theory is a fact. (Apologies if I’m not reading it correctly).

    That’s what I find so frightening: just how far these bullshit theories have wormed their way into Americans’ rotted hearts.

  69. 69.

    zhena gogolia

    June 14, 2022 at 9:56 am

    @NotMax: They’ve been doing a superb job technically so far, so I’m willing to wait if they need more time.

    I think Stepien’s absence was a plus, as we got his deposition, which might have been more forthright than his testimony in the hearing. He thought he was going to get away with his lawyer’s statement, but they didn’t let that happen.

  70. 70.

    lowtechcyclist

    June 14, 2022 at 9:56 am

    @raven: He’s buried in the same cemetery where my father is buried.  I need to find a time to visit when nobody’s around so I can piss on von Braun’s grave.

  71. 71.

    Ol_Froth

    June 14, 2022 at 9:57 am

    A guy from Delaware carrying the Confederate battle flag? I guess he is ignorant that Delaware, although a slave state, remained loyal to the Union?

  72. 72.

    raven

    June 14, 2022 at 9:58 am

    Hive mind, starting yesterday I am getting tons on spam/phishing in my gmail. It used to al least go to promotions but this is out of control!

  73. 73.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 9:59 am

    ‘@UncleEbeneezer

    Yeah, perfectly willing to exercise patience that way. Expecting it might show up one season at a time on a library streaming service such as Kanopy or Hoopla first when moving beyond Apple.

  74. 74.

    raven

    June 14, 2022 at 9:59 am

    @lowtechcyclist: That was just what I thought was the silliest of a really silly show. Secret hippies and lesbians, OH MY!

  75. 75.

    O. Felix Culpa

    June 14, 2022 at 9:59 am

    @zhena gogolia:

    He thought he was going to get away with his lawyer’s statement, but they didn’t let that happen.

    I wondered about that. Apparently the committee thought Stepien’s own words would have more impact than a weasel-worded legal statement (apologies to the lawyers among us), and they were probably most assuredly right.

  76. 76.

    UncleEbeneezer

    June 14, 2022 at 10:00 am

    After a year away from the courts Serena is coming back to play Wimbledon!!!

    At 40 years old she will be attempting to win her 24th Grand Slam to finally tie Margaret Court.  Given her age and time away and the very deep field of talent in the WTA, it’s gonna be pretty tough, but Wimbledon has always been very well suited for her game and it will be great just to see her playing once more.

    On the men’s side, Rafael Nadal who just won his 14th French Open and 22nd Grand Slam (making him the all-time leader for Mens players) has had a radio-ablation treatment on his foot, is now practicing on grass and appears that he will also play Wimbledon.  Exciting day for tennis news.

  77. 77.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    June 14, 2022 at 10:01 am

    @lowtechcyclist: 

    My attitude changed back in the early days of the Internet when it finally became possible to find the founding documents of the Confederate states without having to dig through the depths of a research library somewhere.

    Same.

  78. 78.

    Roger Moore

    June 14, 2022 at 10:03 am

    @H.E.Wolf:

    “The excitement of a young man” is proffered as exculpatory.

    This is distilled essence of privilege.

  79. 79.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 14, 2022 at 10:03 am

    @Ohio Mom:

    These MAGA “tourists” knew they were trying to stop the vote from being counted but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did not grasp at all that they were breaking the law, let alone committing a felony.

    They were likely expecting to receive mass pardons from Trump if anything happened. Which is assuming too much about Trump’s sense of loyalty (even assuming that he could pardon them, which is at least plausible since the crimes were being committed in DC).

  80. 80.

    BC in Illinois

    June 14, 2022 at 10:04 am

    My favorite tweet of the morning:

    “I spoke with former President Trump about his wirefraud activities. He acknowledged it was wrong and promised not to swindle another Quarter of a Billion Dollars again.”
    – Susan Collins

  81. 81.

    BC in Illinois

    June 14, 2022 at 10:05 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    They were likely expecting to receive mass pardons from Trump if anything happened.

    They expected to win.

  82. 82.

    Tony Jay

    June 14, 2022 at 10:05 am

    @debbie: 

    What happens on the U-haul funbus stays on the U-haul funbus. Leader’s orders.

  83. 83.

    Anyway

    June 14, 2022 at 10:07 am

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    Go Serena! Would love to see her tie Margaret Court’s record. Don’t see her pulling it off, though …

  84. 84.

    danielx

    June 14, 2022 at 10:09 am

    Excitable boy, they all said…

  85. 85.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 14, 2022 at 10:10 am

    Heartland Signal
    @HeartlandSignal

    Here’s DeWine’s opponent, former Dayton Mayor Nan Whaley (D):

    “Teachers need 180 hours to renew their teaching license … but only up to 24 hours of training to carry a gun … That is insane.”

    “[Mike DeWine] doesn’t give a shit about whether you or your family are safe.”

  86. 86.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 14, 2022 at 10:11 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I’ve found my attitude to the Confederate flag changing over the last decade. I used to see it as a regional symbol with a sort of nostalgic feel, which I’m now embarrassed about.

    Conservatives and moderates often insist that liberals and Democrats have moved way to the extreme left in the past decade or so, and it seems strange to us. What the hell? It’s the Republicans who went insane, we haven’t.

    But they’re actually correct, when it comes to cultural issues, and it’s stuff like this. American liberals used to grin and tolerate a lot of ugly behavior like Confederate flag displays that we now find intolerable. Think about the amount of casual homophobia we put up with in the 1980s, or casual transphobia as recently as the 2010s. It was just, shrug and say “what are you gonna do?” if we weren’t actively participating.

    I think we do miss that sometimes. This is actually the kind of thing that cheeses them off.

  87. 87.

    Anyway

    June 14, 2022 at 10:12 am

    @Tony Jay:

    RWNJs don’t like “nation of immigrants” and prefer “nation of settlers”. Wouldn’t be surprised if this phrasing made it into Red state textbooks.

  88. 88.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 10:14 am

    They’re going to cut Social Security and Medicare for younger people:

    Lindsey’s pledge: If Republicans regain control of the Senate following the midterms, the current Senate Budget ranking member is laying the groundwork: “Entitlement reform is a must for us to not become Greece.” He said he’s open to tweaking the income cap and eligibility age for programs — and wants to bring in a bipartisan group to study the problems.

  89. 89.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:15 am

    I don’t think technical difficulties is the most likely reason for the postponement of hearings. Perhaps that is rightly part of it. But the smart people on the Committee are probably thinking:

    1 Monday was a good, maybe even a great, day. The grift info. is getting full play in the media.

    2. The Eastman stuff is not quite baked. They are still hoping for an additional big bunch of emails from that fuckwit and a federal court just shook a bunch of them loose.

    3. I suspect there is some panic setting in on the Republican side. The “see no, hear no, speak no truth” strategy preferred by Fox crashed in flames, then blew up, then rolled over and died. I suspect marginally knowledgeable but minimally involved House members (not to say their staff) are starting to make casual outreach to Cheney and Kinsinger without telling McCarthy. Hell, the wanna be Pelosi might himself have some meetings.

    4. The goal in my mind was a counterterrorism strategy to decapitate the head of MAGA and disrupt the communities that follow the leader/s. Besides the fundraising grift, the 60k to Guilfoyle was a particularly deadly stiletto to a lot of the side grifters.

    5. Letting the “pardon, pardon, who wants a pardon?” info sit for a while longer also works wonders on fence sitting pant crappers in the House. See Charlie Pierce’s piece on Mike Lee in Esquire today.

    So, let the cooks, of whom there are thankfully NOT too many (thank you McCarthy) finish the cake that we will eat.

  90. 90.

    Roger Moore

    June 14, 2022 at 10:16 am

    @Matt McIrvin: 

    They were likely expecting to receive mass pardons from Trump if anything happened. Which is assuming too much about Trump’s sense of loyalty (even assuming that he could pardon them, which is at least plausible since the crimes were being committed in DC).

    I don’t think this is quite correct. They weren’t expecting pardons because they never expected to be prosecuted. They were working from the assumption they would be successful, and they knew damn well the Trump DOJ would never investigate the legality of the coup that kept him in power.

  91. 91.

    zhena gogolia

    June 14, 2022 at 10:16 am

    @raven: Mine looks fine. I hardly ever check it, but you prompted me to.

  92. 92.

    Raoul Paste

    June 14, 2022 at 10:16 am

    DeWine reducing the gun training hours from 728 to 24 hours suggests an old Simpsons scene..

    Chief Wiggum is reviewing some  potential recruits, and comes across an especially agitated one who demands to know “When do we get the frikken gun?!?!”

    WIGGUM:  Hey I’m not giving you a gun until you tell me your name

  93. 93.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 10:18 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Our Nan is plain spoken. 

  94. 94.

    zhena gogolia

    June 14, 2022 at 10:18 am

    @Immanentize: Good analysis!

  95. 95.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 10:19 am

    @Immanentize:

    “Inebriated Rudy Guiliani” wouldn’t qualify as #6?

  96. 96.

    Mike in NC

    June 14, 2022 at 10:19 am

    What we see around here are some “Trump 2024” flags and bumper stickers that also incorporate the Confederate battle flag. These scum are not at all subtle. Your daily reminder that a third of the people in this country would be happy to live in a fascist apartheid police state run by a drooling imbecile.

  97. 97.

    O. Felix Culpa

    June 14, 2022 at 10:20 am

    @Immanentize: 

    Cake is so much better than broth, don’t you think? I’m looking forward to a most tasty confection when the hearings resume.

  98. 98.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:20 am

    @raven: i checked my promos. Pretty normal. I suspect maybe something from the book of faces got you?

  99. 99.

    eversor

    June 14, 2022 at 10:21 am

    @Tony Jay:

    This has been around for a while but it took the internet to get them all involved.  But it’s complex.  But the mythology of America goes like this.

    God wanted Christians to create a New Israel.   So it was Gods will that Christians settled the US and because it was Gods will he gifted those Christians with the gun to take the land from the Native Americans, who were Satanic and worshiped the devil.   As such all of the barbarity in the slaughtering of the Native Americans and chattel slavery was sanctioned by God and there is nothing to apologize for.  In fact that should be glad it happened because the survivors were given Christianity, and thus saved and allowed to live in Gods country.   Our constitution is also divinely inspired, which is why nothing can change, EVER.

    The right to bear arms comes directly from god.   Because that is how this land was taken for God and his chosen people to build a godly nation and prepare for his kingdom on earth.   Furthermore the other purpose of the right to bear arms is to overthrow the government if this country ever ceases to represent Christian values (there is an explicit emphasis on sex and gender here).

    This shit is bog standard and the mild version of it you hear on conservative blogs and in Churches.   There is much more radical stuff out there.   This is what we are up against.   The issue of guns now is that the inherent threat of them prevents their enemies from fighting back in the cold civil war for fear it will go hot, and to win in the hot civil war.   And we are in a civil war and it is a religious and ethnic civil war.   Yes, jailing Trump will make it go hot.   But regardless these people are going to keep coming out of the Churches and the fever swamps and trying till they get it.

    At some point, we have to accept that we are going to let them have their theocracy or just go through the violence.

  100. 100.

    WaterGirl

    June 14, 2022 at 10:22 am

    @BC in Illinois:

    No professional tells the client – ONE DAY BEFORE A BIG PUBLIC THING – that they need more time and can’t get it done.

    The idea that they would do such a thing on a project of this import?  Hard to believe.

    This looks awkward at best, and the story doesn’t really hold water.

    I am more inclined to believe that they have decided to change something up in that hearing and that’s why they need more time.

    Adam Schiff, for one, changed course mid-stream multiple times during the impeachment trial, so I don’t think this is out of the question.

  101. 101.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 14, 2022 at 10:22 am

    Holy shit. I crapped my pants just watching this:

    LADbible @ladbible
    This is as close a shave as you’re ever going to get

    I can’t f’n believe that kid is not only still alive, but mobile. Run? You dawgdamned right!

  102. 102.

    Tony Jay

    June 14, 2022 at 10:23 am

    @debbie:

    Oh sure, the underpinnings and prejudices are well established, but I’m talking about being even more open about the endgame than American Tangster.

    For example, how long before a GOP candidate stands in front of a star-spangled podium and opens their bid with “This is a white man’s country…”?

    To, of course, rapturous applause.

  103. 103.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:23 am

    @O. Felix Culpa: To prove cake is better than broth:

    Is there such a thing as a broth flavored cake? Not that I know of! But there is (rice) cake soup (Korean)

  104. 104.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 10:25 am

    ‘@O. Felix Culpa

    At one point way back when was working a a major NYC ad agency I was assigned (read: “Dump it on the low man on the totem pole”) to put together a teaser reel to be shown to potential sponsors showcasing clips from the pilot episode of each new upcoming program for the fall season on the (then three) networks, Said presentation reel to run no longer than 45 minutes, preferably 30.

    Took days and days just to initially sit and watch each pilot from beginning to end and mark the timestamp of any scene(s) I deemed under consideration, then the better part of a full day’s rental of a professional editing service to perch along side him and instruct the engineer about what to place and where.

    The hardware and software involved has since changed and improved in capability but an hour still remains locked in at 60 minutes.

  105. 105.

    raven

    June 14, 2022 at 10:25 am

    @Immanentize: I’m thinking it happened when I ordered a set of . . . venetian blinds for my truck!

  106. 106.

    O. Felix Culpa

    June 14, 2022 at 10:26 am

    @Immanentize:

    Your logic is impeccable, counselor. The ruling is in favor of cake and the case is hereby closed.

  107. 107.

    Kathleen

    June 14, 2022 at 10:28 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:  Cincinnati School Board voted to ban arming teachers.

  108. 108.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:28 am

    @debbie: That’s just fodder for the nightime comics — and DOJ investigators. He took the clash seriously I guess:

    Now he get a rude and a reckless
    Seen lookin’ cool an’ speckless
    Drinkin’ brew for breakfast.
    Rudy can’t fail!

  109. 109.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:29 am

    @raven: ok, those are cool as hell! Worth some add on spam.

  110. 110.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 10:29 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: 

    How the hell did that happen?

  111. 111.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 10:30 am

    @Kay:

    How young?

  112. 112.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 14, 2022 at 10:31 am

    @Tony Jay: They also don’t understand that without democracy they don’t have any reliable access to power. The people they’re trying to enable don’t have any sense of loyalty or honor and will surely turn on them too.

  113. 113.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 14, 2022 at 10:31 am

    @Kathleen: The rural districts are where it will be allowed.

  114. 114.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 14, 2022 at 10:33 am

    @Baud: It’s a dumpster truck of a type where the pick up bar stands high above the dumpster when loaded on the truck. That bar caught the overhanging tree. I had to watch it 3 or 4 times before I figured it out.

  115. 115.

    O. Felix Culpa

    June 14, 2022 at 10:33 am

    Apropos of nothing, we happened to see Biden’s motorcade drive through I-25 in Albquerque on Saturday. They closed off the highway entirely to allow many many many black SUVs, cop cars, and police motorcycles through. Lots of flashing lights. Biden was here to view the forest fire devastation and promise federal funds for the damages, only fitting since the US Forest Service caused the damn fires, the biggest in NM history. Not coincidentally, our Democratic governor is up for reelection this year, so it was also a nice photo op and show of support for her.

  116. 116.

    raven

    June 14, 2022 at 10:34 am

    @Immanentize: Unfortunately I ordered them and then looked at their youtube page with tons of “you can’t run with your windows down because they are too flimsy”!! The back window on my Chev is huge and the sun bounces off my chrome toolbox so I thought this might be a good idea!

  117. 117.

    eversor

    June 14, 2022 at 10:34 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    The are talking about religion and sex, all they care about.

    Liberals are less Christian than before this is not acceptable to them.  Liberals are OK with gay marriage, women as top earners, stay at home dads.   This is not OK with them.  The only thing they care about is Christianity and traditional Christian values around sex and gender.   They do not care about anything else.

    So yes, they are correct.   We did move left, the country moved left.  And to them, that means they get to collude with foreign powers and overthrow the government and install a Franco.   Because the only thing that matters is Christianity.

    You have to view everything they are saying through a religious aspect.

  118. 118.

    Kathleen

    June 14, 2022 at 10:35 am

    @debbie: What pisses me off is between the gun leniency, genital inspection and GQP’s massive bird flip to Ohio Constitution I can’t mock Texas and Florida anymore.

  119. 119.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 10:35 am

    ‘@Immanentize

    Did someone mention soup cake?

    ;)

  120. 120.

    raven

    June 14, 2022 at 10:36 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: That ain’t no van!!

  121. 121.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:36 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: why did you share that? Sheesh.

    It’s the mirror in the second angle.
    Eff-You-See-Kay!!!
    Almost took his head off!

  122. 122.

    eversor

    June 14, 2022 at 10:37 am

    @Kay:

    Nobody I know thinks we are going to get social security or medicare.  Both IRL and online.  That’s been the case for years now.   And nobody thinks the Democrats won’t try to Obama style grand bargain it away because of the deficit.

  123. 123.

    EarthWindFire

    June 14, 2022 at 10:38 am

    @eversor: 

    Our constitution is also divinely inspired, which is why nothing can change, EVER.

    How do they explain amendments?

  124. 124.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 10:38 am

    @eversor: Cool. Then no worries then.

  125. 125.

    JPL

    June 14, 2022 at 10:39 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:  OMG

  126. 126.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:39 am

    @NotMax: of course you would rebut my water tight (well add one can of water) argument with —
    Facts!  But I think the judge already ruled.

    Meanwhile, it doesn’t look so bad. Kinda like a carrot cake but with Campbell’s.

  127. 127.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 10:39 am

    ‘@debbie

    “Inebriated Rudy Giuliani” should rate … a fifth.

    //

  128. 128.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:41 am

    @EarthWindFire: prophets may appear…

    (Ok, they spell it “profits”)

  129. 129.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 10:41 am

    @Baud: 

    I don’t know but they always propose raising the eligibility age for a far-from-retirement group to avoid political fall out. They’ll grandfather in most voters and screw everyone 30 and younger or something.

  130. 130.

    Kathleen

    June 14, 2022 at 10:41 am

    @Immanentize: Hey! Your well grounded “opinions” are harshing my doomscroll mellow! //s

  131. 131.

    JPL

    June 14, 2022 at 10:41 am

    @Immanentize: Thanks for the analysis.

    I’m just pleased that I don’t have to keep clicking between the MSNBC feed and Scotusblog.   Supreme Court opinions will be released starting at ten tomorrow.

  132. 132.

    Roger Moore

    June 14, 2022 at 10:44 am

    @Baud: 

    How the hell did that happen?

    It looks to me like something on the back of the truck got caught on the tree in the background and caused the truck to pull to the side.

  133. 133.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:45 am

    @Baud: Whenever some talks that particular shit I see the mark of Cain. It is the most defeatist, stupid, uninformed, agitprop wet bowel expulsion around.

    It seems to be savvy gold, but with the slightest scratch proves to be the turd, unpolished.

  134. 134.

    Kathleen

    June 14, 2022 at 10:45 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: Exurbs and suburbs also

  135. 135.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 10:45 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    @Roger Moore:

    Trees are so evil.

  136. 136.

    Sure Lurkalot

    June 14, 2022 at 10:46 am

    I’m not a Bulwark fan but this take on Stepien’s opinion of himself is spot on:

    https://www.thebulwark.com/no-bill-stepien-you-werent-on-team-normal-you-were-on-team-coup/#

  137. 137.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:46 am

    @JPL: That could be another reason for delay? A little heads up that the NY gun case is set to come down? All hands on deck?

  138. 138.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 10:46 am

    @eversor:

    Nobody I know thinks we are going to get social security or medicare

    I understand this, and have heard it a lot from younger people, but I think it’s bad politics. You should take exactly the opposite tone- “we all fully expect to get it and will be outraged and punish politicians if it’s threatened”.

    They’re pricing in the political cost. If you already think you won’t get it the political cost isn’t high.

  139. 139.

    Kathleen

    June 14, 2022 at 10:47 am

    @Baud: I remember when a U S President said trees cause pollution.

  140. 140.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 10:48 am

    @Immanentize: 

    I don’t waste time worrying about people who don’t worry about themselves. Herman Cain Award recipients taught me that.

  141. 141.

    Quiltingfool

    June 14, 2022 at 10:48 am

    The “Cats and Sunflowers” donation quilt for Ukraine is getting close to completion, yay! Any quilt maker will tell you that sometimes the block making drags along and you feel like the quilt will NEVER get done, and then – everything comes together, and you get annoyed when you have to stop working because you have to fix dinner or fold clothes or some other nonsense (lol).

    I decided to put a dog block in the cat quilt – a very important dog, Patron.
    I think it turned out pretty good. I searched for a rat terrier drawing and found a free coloring page and used it to draft an appliqué pattern.
    https://twitter.com/FoolQuilt/status/1536537625485623298?s=20&t=1XWnJglbJkaqKh4uQ2gtlQ
    @Betty Cracker – yesterday you posted a photo of Pete, and my first thought was “Hey! I could make an appliqué block of Pete! Easy-Peasy!”

    Well, better get to work!

  142. 142.

    Tony Jay

    June 14, 2022 at 10:50 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    “Tonight on Fox & Friends – If they’re all the same, why do any of them deserve your vote? To break it down for us we’re joined by renowned international brain-smith Doctor Steve Palpatinos, author of the bestseller smash hit we’re all talking about ‘A Republic of Leisure – How to Pick the Best Leader and Free Yourself from the Democratic Rat-Race’. Good to see you, Doctor. First question, are elections a way of making us queue up like cattle in the slaughterhouse?”

  143. 143.

    eversor

    June 14, 2022 at 10:50 am

    @EarthWindFire:

    I dunno I hate read right wing religious blogs and I play enough online and tabletop games I run into them constantly.  It’s sort of not avoidable to run into them.

    You play enough online games you hear a lot about Jews as well.

  144. 144.

    zhena gogolia

    June 14, 2022 at 10:51 am

    When I was young I thought a lot of things were screwed up. But I don’t remember blaming the older generation for it en masse. I remember thinking, “Well, they had WWII to deal with, so this wasn’t really on their minds.” I thought it was up to me to try to make the changes I wanted. I tried. We don’t always succeed. If all the candidates I supported and voted for had won, we would be in a very different place today.

  145. 145.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 10:51 am

    @Kay:

    They’re pricing in the political cost. If you already think you won’t get it the political cost isn’t high.

    Which is why the billionaires spend so much money spreading cynicism among young people.

  146. 146.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:51 am

    @Baud: fair enough.

  147. 147.

    eversor

    June 14, 2022 at 10:52 am

    @Kay:

    Ultimately in the age group it’s pretty much “the Republicans are vile evil assholes, but they are honest about it and they fight for it” vs “the Democrats are going to screw you over, but lie that they won’t and then tell you they had no choice” both serve the rich.

    And as someone who voted first in 2000 and paid attention to politics since then.   I think that’s FAR too kind to either party.

  148. 148.

    zhena gogolia

    June 14, 2022 at 10:53 am

    @eversor: Oh, good for you. Here’s a cookie. Let me guess — white and male?

  149. 149.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:54 am

    @Sure Lurkalot: that was good. Thanks for pointing to it.

  150. 150.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 10:56 am

    @Kay:

    This crap again. It’s getting so tiring. It’s not an entitlement, IT’S OUR FUCKING MONEY– unless (and I haven’t heard it) they’re planning to stop taking SS taxes out of paychecks?

  151. 151.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 10:57 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I saw it yesterday, but couldn’t watch it more than once. A miracle, frankly.

  152. 152.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 10:57 am

    @eversor: So, you are at least 40 years old, and you are still trying to justify your vote for Nader?

  153. 153.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 10:57 am

    @Baud:

    “Are you insane? You’ve already promised me this! Not a day older than 67 for full benefits – a key part of my plan and one I am absolutely relying on”.

    They can’t just be moping around about this.

  154. 154.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    June 14, 2022 at 10:58 am

    @eversor: 

    I completely disagree with that assessment of the parties, but you are right about the religious right. They do think those crazy things.

  155. 155.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 10:59 am

    @Kay:

    Between ending Roe and SS/Medicare, aren’t the Republicans signing away any chance of an electoral win?

  156. 156.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 11:00 am

    @debbie:

    It will never end. Conservatives have been salivating over gutting Social Security since the day it passed.

    They cannot allow a big pot of money to sit, unplundered.

  157. 157.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 11:00 am

    @Kay: The real answer is to lower the full retirement age to 62. Get the olds, especially those who are hurting, out of the workforce and open space for the youngs. That is my platform in Immville.

  158. 158.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 11:01 am

    @zhena gogolia:

    The older generation wasn’t selfish and self-centered either.

  159. 159.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 11:02 am

    @debbie: You never met my Mother’s sister.

  160. 160.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 11:02 am

    @Kay:

    They can’t just be moping around about this.

    Why not?  It’s their choice. If they believe it’s a lost cause, why should they work to fight it?

  161. 161.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 11:06 am

    @debbie:

    Seriously? How long have you been watching this? :)

    They’ll say “it won’t affect anyone born prior to 1990” and 80% of the country will be “whew! I don’t have to care about that, then!”

    That’s how raising the full benefits from 65 to 67 worked politically- they made sure to push it far out into the future.

  162. 162.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 14, 2022 at 11:06 am

    @Roger Moore:

    They weren’t expecting pardons because they never expected to be prosecuted. They were working from the assumption they would be successful

    If so, that’s an unrealistic expectation of even what being successful would entail. Keeping Trump in power doesn’t mean a cop doesn’t arrest you for breaking into the Capitol–unless you can trust Trump to call them off, and you can’t trust Trump to do anything on your behalf, because he’s a narcissistic shit for whom loyalty only goes one way. I’d expect him to sacrifice the footsoldiers and let people call them crazy lone wolves.

  163. 163.

    JPL

    June 14, 2022 at 11:06 am

    @Immanentize: Just in time for the 4th of July festivities.

  164. 164.

    artem1s

    June 14, 2022 at 11:08 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: 

    And it eliminates the requirement for gun carriers to tell police officers they have a concealed weapon on them, though they must say if they are asked.

    nothing bad could ever happen now, right? I hate DeWine with the heat of 10,000 super novas.

  165. 165.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 11:08 am

    gotta run, but leaving you a sweet little song.
    “The great society, unfortunately, is down….”

    Run, Run, Run

  166. 166.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 11:10 am

    @Kay:

    To be honest, I was focusing on the fact they said nothing about the tens of thousands I’d already paid in. Nothing about them refunding it to me. My bad.

    I don’t know, I think some well-worded, often-repeated talking points would work to counter the GOP’s position. It’s not like young people find them anything but slimeballs (Roe).

  167. 167.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 11:11 am

    @Immanentize:

    67 seems to me to be the reasonable limit, especially for any kind of physical work. This idea they seem to have that everyone is just getting healthier every generation and living longer really isn’t true. That’s pretty much stalled. There’s a huge group of jobs where even 67 is unrealistic.

  168. 168.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 11:11 am

    @JPL: All the cases will be handed down, I suspect, by Friday July 1. It is gonna be a HOT summer.

  169. 169.

    SiubhanDuinne

    June 14, 2022 at 11:12 am

    @Quiltingfool:

    I saw (and commented on) your “Patron” block in Adam’s Ukraine thread last night. Beautiful work, and I can’t wait to see photos of the finished quilt! Thank you for lending your talent to such an important cause.

  170. 170.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 11:12 am

    @artem1s:

    I’ve heard reminders to carriers that they should expect the police to ask them whether they’re carrying before they ask anything else. Duh.

  171. 171.

    piratedan

    June 14, 2022 at 11:13 am

    @Immanentize: I’ll offer another posibility, considering the nature of the current political environment we live in…. it’s possible that lives have been threatened.  Committee members or staffers alike… these folks are trawling thru some very corrupt waters and bringing to light many items that have been glossed over by the media (some would say deliberately so) and with so many of their co-workers being involved in aiding and abetting, perhaps some credible threats have been made. Having this become a focal point just when they were getting ready to beat up Dems about the economy is not something that those on the right want to see.

     

    Not saying that this IS what happened, but would any of you be shocked if it has?

  172. 172.

    Sure Lurkalot

    June 14, 2022 at 11:14 am

    @eversor: 30 years ago my investment advisors did not consider Social Security in my retirement savings scheme because they assumed it wouldn’t be there or would be a meaningless amount. That continued until about 10 years ago or so.

    The Republicans may bank on this dream of theirs but it’s been a dream for a long long time.

  173. 173.

    CaseyL

    June 14, 2022 at 11:14 am

    @eversor:

    Young people have thought there would be no SocSec for them since forever. I remember thinking the same thing when I was college – in the 1970s! But SocSec is, in fact, still around.

    Obama’s proffered “grand bargain” was a negotiating feint: he knew there would never be one, because it would require the GOP bargaining in good faith, and he knew they weren’t.

  174. 174.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 11:15 am

    @Immanentize:

    I’m trying to prepare myself mentally for Roe, and failing. It is just hugely profound for me. I really, really value agency. It makes me feel suffocated, like they’re closing in on me, personally. “You thought you were a full adult person? Well, we’ll be CHECKING that notion!”

  175. 175.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 14, 2022 at 11:15 am

    @Kay: With my cohort (older GenXers, born in the late 60s) there was a kind of crabs-in-bucket thing going on. We were told over and over that Social Security would be gone by the time we got old, and as I remember it, a lot of that was spread by people hawking retirement-savings instruments. But it also functioned as political propaganda against Social Security, because why are we paying into it if we’re never going to see a dime from it? I actually expected there to be more support for killing Social Security among my generation than there is.

  176. 176.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 11:15 am

    @Kay: That is my point — work is still breaking bodies, and add despair, drugs and alcohol and it looks pretty grim for many mid-60s folks. Can you and I agree to a return to 65?

    After all the stuff in my life, even I am resetting my plans from retirement at 70 to 67. In a few years age 62, with all of its penalties, will look like a good time to quit.

  177. 177.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 11:17 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: So now all crazy kid on the school bus has to do to get a loaded handgun is kosh the bus driver while his/her attention is elsewhere and voila…a free weapon!  Yay!

  178. 178.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 11:17 am

    @CaseyL:

    Obama’s proffered “grand bargain” was a negotiating feint: he knew there would never be one, because it would require the GOP bargaining in good faith, and he knew they weren’t.

    Regardless of what thinks of the “Grand Bargain,” the only thing he proposed to the GOP on board was changing the CPI rate for cost-of-living increases (while at the same time, making SS more progressive at the lower end).  Nothing he put forward would have radically changed SS

    ETA: And the fact that “people” are still bringing it up just goes to show the power of  anti-Dem propaganda.

  179. 179.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 11:18 am

    @Kay: It is such a reversal of progress. I can’t think of any such move ever in this country. It is horrific. And the Court simply will not stop at Roe.

  180. 180.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 14, 2022 at 11:19 am

    @Sure Lurkalot:

    30 years ago my investment advisors did not consider Social Security in my retirement savings scheme because they assumed it wouldn’t be there or would be a meaningless amount.

    I always got the impression this was done as an element of the sales pitch for investment advisors and retirement-savings instruments. Of course, Social Security is a modest enough benefit that you want to supplement it massively if you can. But it sounds much more dramatic to tell people it won’t exist and they won’t get a dime.

  181. 181.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 14, 2022 at 11:19 am

    @Kay: 67 seems to me to be the reasonable limit, especially for any kind of physical work.

    I had to stop at 55 and I haven’t had a pain free day in 20 years.

  182. 182.

    germy shoemangler

    June 14, 2022 at 11:20 am

    The next hearing will take place on Thursday instead. Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif., a member of the panel, told reporters Tuesday that the postponement was due to “technical issues” stemming from “overwhelming” demand on staff to produce videos.

    It’s pretty amazing they’ve been able to sort through hundreds of hours of video testimony, bodycam footage, texts and social media stuff, and do it so seamlessly. But I thought this is why they hired the retired ABC News topdog. His expertise in video was supposed to keep things running.

    I’m looking forward to the next hearing. I think they’ve been doing an excellent job so far. And I liked Garland’s comment, that the DOJ is watching.

  183. 183.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 11:20 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    It just seems to me that they want you to think that. They’re softening you up to take it from you. Because you’re not going to be any “healthier” than the current crop of 67 year old people – there’s no reason to think that. So it’s just an arbitrary raise in “the retirement age” that is tied to nothing related to capacity to keep working.

    They got 67. They should stop there. It’s old enough.

  184. 184.

    WereBear

    June 14, 2022 at 11:21 am

    @Immanentize: Personally, I’ve experienced absolute avalanches. Spam filters don’t work. Promotional juggling. Means. My bank sends me 10 emails a day and I have to look at all of them to make sure they’re not telling me something vital. Some. Lockdown triggered explosion has definitely taken place

     

    I am on my third program to attempt to manage it all so I can actually see emails I need to read.

  185. 185.

    artem1s

    June 14, 2022 at 11:22 am

    @lowtechcyclist:

    And even if the teacher wore it nonstop, it wouldn’t be that hard for a student to grab it in an unguarded moment, and start shooting.

    you are giving too much credit to the type of idiot who would decide it’s a good idea to conceal carry in a school. it’s far more likely we’re going to see a teacher (you know the guy who they hire to coach sportsball and still has to ‘teach’ a ‘history’ class) or parent just lose it and start shooting students. DeWine just essentially legalized going postal in schools and other places of work. no one has to declare they are carrying now. just walk in and get revenge on whomever is chapping your ass that day.

    I can hope this will cost him the governors race, but it’s not likely to hurt him much at all.

    Only ‘good’ news is it might mean turn out amongst Dems would be enough to get Ryan a win.

  186. 186.

    Immanentize

    June 14, 2022 at 11:23 am

    @piratedan: I don’t doubt that they have been getting piles of threats all along. Especially Thompson and Cheney (great demographics for threat makers). But for them to change schedule because of a threat alone, it would have to have been a BFD very specific threat that is already been put into action. The way to test your theory will be if there is super security (like no spectators) at the next session.

  187. 187.

    trollhattan

    June 14, 2022 at 11:24 am

    Lucky for that 22 year old “kid” he wasn’t toting a bag of Skittles.

  188. 188.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 11:25 am

    @Tony Jay: Sorta medieval, isn’t it?

  189. 189.

    germy shoemangler

    June 14, 2022 at 11:25 am

    @Immanentize:

    I noticed at the end of the second hearing, Thompson made a point of saying Capitol police would be escorting everyone out.  I don’t remember hearing him say that at the end of the first hearing.

  190. 190.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 11:26 am

    @debbie: Their khaki clad crotches rubbing against each other as they sway back and forth in the hot dark interior….

  191. 191.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 11:27 am

    @Immanentize:

    I just think it’s naive and silly to think it won’t effect women’s progress more generally. Of course it will. It’s a redefinition of their autonomy. You don’t move back 50 years on such a profound concept and stay the same in all other areas. Conservative cultural ideas about women come along with their laws, because that’s what the laws are based on.

    There’s a kind of desperation to diminish how profound it is, too. The NYTimes had this ridiculous “analysis” that there would be only an “18%” reduction in abortions as if there could be this huge incursion into women’s agency and sense of autonomy with only a mechanical counting process as the the measure . They’re comforting themselves. They’re speaking to each other: “it will be okay“.

  192. 192.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 11:27 am

    @Paul in KY:

    “Your AR is rubbing against my leg.”

    “That’s not my AR.”

  193. 193.

    piratedan

    June 14, 2022 at 11:28 am

    @Immanentize: I personally hope that my thought/concern is simply untrue/bs; but I don’t believe that the media play that these hearings are getting is something that those that manipulate the narrative in the shadows have anticipated.

    The fact that Fox News is now carrying them Live is not something I expected to see….

  194. 194.

    pluky

    June 14, 2022 at 11:29 am

    @Spanky:

    might work with a jury. before a judge, not so much.

  195. 195.

    Ohio Mom

    June 14, 2022 at 11:29 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: I have my own quirky take on Ohio’s new law permitting under-trained teachers to bring guns into their classrooms.

    We all know Republicans hate the idea of “government schools.” They don’t see public schools as essential to a healthy democracy, they see privatizing schools as a way to break up teachers’ unions (unions being a core constituency of the Democratic Party) and provide their friends with fabulous opportunities for graft (Ohio has already lost gazillions to charter and virtual school schemes).

    Now their established methods of pushing families out of public schools have plateaued in effectiveness. They are hoping that arming teachers gooses the flight to private schools and the demand for tuition vouchers.

    As I said, just my tin hat thought. Would love to hear Kay’s reaction, she is much more knowledgeable about Ohio politics and school issues than I am.

  196. 196.

    Served

    June 14, 2022 at 11:31 am

    The Libs of TikTok Twitter account tweeted about a Drag Queen Storytime in the Bay Area, which was then stormed by right wing extremists. They’re all-in on terrorizing LGBT (especially Trans people), and it’s getting worse.

    Teen Vogue: Do you want to share what happened in your own words?

    KC: I was sitting with the two librarians, singing a welcome song, when eight to ten Proud Boys marched in with their cameras outstretched. They took seats in the second row behind children and parents. One man had an AK-47 shirt that said “kill your local pedophile” on it. We stopped the song and the Proud Boys yelled “who brought the tranny” and started hurling insults, calling me a pedophile and a groomer. The librarian asked them politely to leave, and security came in. I realized that I wasn’t helping the situation by still being present so I was taken to a safe room and the sheriff was called. They continued to terrorize the librarians and flashed white power hand gestures.

  197. 197.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 11:31 am

    @Paul in KY:

    Combined with the thrill of the violence to come…

  198. 198.

    Craig

    June 14, 2022 at 11:32 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: so if you want to shoot up a school in Ohio you get a job as a bus driver them walk into a school with your totally cool 9mm pistols and a few high capacity mags and go at it? This seems like a bad stunt law.

  199. 199.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 14, 2022 at 11:35 am

    @eversor: And nobody thinks the Democrats won’t try to Obama style grand bargain it away because of the deficit.

    Your young friends are that concerned about the calculations of annual COLA increases based on CPI vs chained CPI? They’re into the weeds, aren’t they?

  200. 200.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 11:35 am

    ‘@CaseyL

    Yup yup. Repeated like a broken record. Witnessed people expressing the exact same thing during the 60s. And the 70s. And the 80s. And so on and so on.

    In fact, the mantra itself is old enough to qualify for Social Security.

  201. 201.

    zhena gogolia

    June 14, 2022 at 11:36 am

    @piratedan: I don’t see any reason why they would be lying to us about the reason for the postponement.

  202. 202.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 11:37 am

    @lowtechcyclist: My father’s fellow Company back at end of WW II captured him down in South Germany/Austria.

  203. 203.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 11:38 am

    @UncleEbeneezer: I just hope she’s really in shape.  She will need to be to get that plate.

  204. 204.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 11:39 am

    @Ohio Mom:

    The thing about the “arming teachers” plan was it was kind of a flop. Teachers (sensibly) don’t want to be armed nor do they want to take responsibility for facing down an AR-15 with their personal hand gun. I mean, as we found out, police won’t even go into that situation.

    It pisses me off because it’s idiotic pandering and an excuse for conservatives to say they are “doing something”. I don’t think it will have much effect at all, real world.

    DeWine should be ashamed. He is such a coward. He believes in NONE of this bullshit. You’re not a moderate for 50 years in government and then just start believing all this nonsense. He’s just a weak, pathetic person with no core values. A sell out.

  205. 205.

    Kent

    June 14, 2022 at 11:40 am

    @Ohio Mom:

    Teacher here. First off, the majority of teachers at all levels are women and are unlikely to ever carry firearms on their person. So we are talking about purses, backpacks, etc.  Which are all unsecured unless the districts spring for gun safes in every classroom.  What will stop a kid from stealing the handgun out of a teacher’s purse?  Don’t think the kid’s won’t know which teachers are carrying firearms.

    Second, there isn’t a single day that goes by when I don’t get emails or announcements over the intercom about lost car keys, lost cell phones, etc. that teachers and students leave laying around in bathrooms, break rooms, cars, etc. So we are pretty much guaranteed that there will be firearms going missing on a daily basis in Ohio schools. Then what? You lock down the school until that missing Glock is found?

    Third, if training and licensing requirements are necessary for staff to bring firearms into schools, why not for everyone in all circumstances? What is the difference between me bringing a firearm into a school and into a grocery store? Why does one require training and licensing and not the other?

    Obviously it is all performative bullshit.

  206. 206.

    Ruckus

    June 14, 2022 at 11:41 am

    @Spanky: 
    Hey “He’s an idiot!” in this case is speaking the truth. Of course it’s not a good defense but in this case but the defense has to go with the situation as dealt. And let’s face it, the defendant is a mature idiot. But as he’s “genuinely” sorry, that means he knows what he did was wrong and therefore, while he’s an idiot, he knows he’s an idiot and therefore is not actually a mental idiot, he just acts like one in real life.

  207. 207.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 11:42 am

    ‘@Ohio Mom

    Might want to rephrase that, little Billy.

    Let’s just say some folks could take “My teacher wears a strap-on!” differently than you meant it.

    //

  208. 208.

    Tony G

    June 14, 2022 at 11:45 am

    @Ohio Mom:  Yeah, these guys are as dumb as rocks. But — I think that they have a visceral understanding that people like them — dumb white guys — do not have to face consequences for what they do. I hope that most of them will learn otherwise.

  209. 209.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 11:45 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: That kid just used up his lifetime’s supply of luck.  Glad he’s OK.

  210. 210.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 14, 2022 at 11:46 am

    The Seefrieds are really from Yanny, Delaware

  211. 211.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 14, 2022 at 11:46 am

    privatizing Social Security was Dumbya’s first overreach in 2005, when he had political capital and intended to spend it

    trump won the nomination in 2016 in no small part because he loudly rejected the GOP line on Social Security and Medicare. Boss Hogg-abee complained at the time that trump was stealing his schtick.

    OTOH, fear of The Black President got a lot of older white people to start voting for the safety-net-slashers starting in 2010

  212. 212.

    Ohio Mom

    June 14, 2022 at 11:46 am

    @eversor: When I was a youngster, I thought the same thing. Thinking there won’t be Social Security and Medicare when you’re old is just about a developmental stage of young adulthood.

  213. 213.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 11:47 am

    @Ohio Mom:

    That there have been so many shootings and conservatives are all still pretending they don’t get the physics of this- the reality of one of these weapons and the barrage of bullets – 9, 11, 21 dead in 35 seconds – how do they see this working? She takes him out with the handgun as he’s shooting up the class? So she goes from “teaching” to “responding in an instant to assault rifle fire” in what, 3 to 5 seconds? No one could do this. It’s ludicrous.

  214. 214.

    lowtechcyclist

    June 14, 2022 at 11:47 am

    @Immanentize: When you said

    starting to make casual outreach to Cheney and Kinsinger

    I read the latter as ‘Kissinger’ at first, and was wondering what the hell our Iraq and Vietnam war criminals had to do with this., but was curious to find out.

    Then I realized you’d probably just typo’d Kinzinger, and of course meant Liz, not Dick, Cheney.

  215. 215.

    Just One More Canuck

    June 14, 2022 at 11:48 am

    @Spanky: “Your Honor, Ah’s Stoopid”

  216. 216.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 11:52 am

    @Kay: 100% true.  Any young person’s attitude about Social Security should be “I better damn well get mine & woe be anyone who thwarts me from that!!!”

  217. 217.

    The Moar You Know

    June 14, 2022 at 11:53 am

    For example, how long before a GOP candidate stands in front of a star-spangled podium and opens their bid with “This is a white man’s country…”?

    @Tony Jay: 1868.

    Not a joke.  That was the first time it was used by legit presidential candidates, and the only surprise to me is that it wasn’t much earlier.

  218. 218.

    Baud

    June 14, 2022 at 11:53 am

    @Paul in KY:

    I’m not sure young people say “thwarts.”

  219. 219.

    Ruckus

    June 14, 2022 at 11:53 am

    @germy shoemangler:

    So, the utter stupidity of dad was passed down the evil spawn.

    I always like it when they provide the proof of who and what they aspire to be in life.

  220. 220.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 11:53 am

    @Immanentize: Good one!!! Fuck Ralph Nader!

  221. 221.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 11:56 am

    @Kay: 

    Ask them how a handgun can take out an AR-15.

  222. 222.

    Ruckus

    June 14, 2022 at 11:57 am

    @debbie:

    Only stop taking the money out of the paychecks of the wealthy. The rest of the citizens will have to pay more and receive less. Isn’t that the rethuglican way?

  223. 223.

    Edmund Dantes

    June 14, 2022 at 11:59 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: fucking bullshit excuse if that’s the  true one. They’ve had months and months to put this together. That was the reason why we had to wait for the hearings. Hire more fucking people.

    im hoping it’s something actual of import and not “we couldn’t get ready in time”.

  224. 224.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 12:00 pm

    @Baud: Oh man, the gay fanfic that can be written!

    I asked him innocently what kind of gun lube he used and he turned around with a sly smile…

  225. 225.

    Citizen Alan

    June 14, 2022 at 12:00 pm

    @Served:

    Why shouldn’t they be all in on terrorizing LGBT’s?  The 50 year campaign of domestic terrorism against abortion providers that the media has largely ignored is about to pay off with with a ban on abortion. Domestic terrorism works if the perpetrators are white conservatives.

  226. 226.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 14, 2022 at 12:01 pm

    Rudy W. Giuliani @RudyGiuliani
    I am disgusted and outraged at the out right lie by Jason Miller and Bill Steppien. I was upset that they were not prepared for the massive cheating (as well as other lawyers around the President) I REFUSED all alcohol that evening. My favorite drink..Diet Pepsi

    He’s well known around Manhattan for having three bloody diet Pepsis with breakfast, and ordering a Diet Pepsi with one large ice cube at fancy cigar bars

    The hostess led us through a hallway to the dining room. As Giuliani walked down the carpeted ramp, he fell over to his right and hit the wall. He kept on walking as if it hadn’t happened. “My God, it’s Rudy Giuliani,” I heard someone say. He nodded and waved at people he knew seated across the restaurant. He stopped to shake hands with an older man and his wife.

    “I’d like some sparkling water. And I know you have wonderful Bloody Marys,” Giuliani told the waiter. “Yes, sir,” the waiter said, “and I know you love them.” Giuliani laughed. “You’re a good man!,” he said.

  227. 227.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 12:02 pm

    ‘@Debbie

    :”Never seen Indiana Jones? Assault rifle, scimitar. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.”

    //

  228. 228.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 12:06 pm

    @Baud: It was more an attitude than actual copy for a verbal threat.  :-)

    Agree that ‘thwart’ is sorta old-school.

  229. 229.

    Jay

    June 14, 2022 at 12:08 pm

    @Baud: 
    Depends if they are wooden boat fans or not.

  230. 230.

    The Lodger

    June 14, 2022 at 12:10 pm

    @artem1s: Laurel is about 50 miles south of the Mason-Dixon line. In Delaware, that matters. It was a border state in the Civil War. Delaware didn’t secede, but hell, neither did Kentucky.

  231. 231.

    brantl

    June 14, 2022 at 12:11 pm

    @Ohio Mom: I think you’re underappreciating the white entitlement.

  232. 232.

    Ohio Mom

    June 14, 2022 at 12:18 pm

    @Kay: I know there are too many shootings to keep up with but our side should memorize the numbers involved in the Dayton shooting and repeat them endlessly:

    “On August 4, 2019, 24-year-old Connor Betts shot and killed nine people, including his brother, and wounded 17 others near the entrance of the Ned Peppers Bar in the Oregon District of Dayton, Ohio. Betts was fatally shot by responding police officers 32 seconds after the first shots were fired.” (Wikipedia)

    Highly trained “good guys” reacted almost instantly, reacted as fast as humanly possible, reacted miraculously quickly and still — nine deaths (plus the shooter), 17 injured, not to mention that no one has ever tallied up the ongoing psychological trauma that resulted.

    The cops were scanning the street, with no thought except to look for trouble and they were wearing their guns in a way that makes them as accessible as can be.

    The best circumstances possible and the result is 9 innocent people dying and 17 innocent people with injuries.

  233. 233.

    NotMax

    June 14, 2022 at 12:20 pm

    ‘@The Lodger

    Presume you’re talking about Maryland?

    The Mason-Dixon Line was mapped to conveniently skirt entirely around Delaware.

  234. 234.

    Jojo

    June 14, 2022 at 12:20 pm

    @EarthWindFire: Dave Neiwert wrote that, among members of the so-called “Patriot” proto-fascist movement, amendments other than the first ten are considered  illegal. They especially hate the 14th Amendment. They call the main body of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights amendments the “Organic” Constitution. I suspect much of the right wing adheres to this concept either formally or in a sort of vague, half-understood way.

  235. 235.

    Geminid

    June 14, 2022 at 12:23 pm

    @The Lodger: Delaware maintained segregated schools well into the 1960s. It did not even have a high school for Black children until 1950.

  236. 236.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 12:25 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Right. And the current best practice is to lock students and teachers in their room. So how does this work? Teacher armed with handgun. Check. Then what?
    It doesn’t work at all. They’re just saying it to protect guns.

  237. 237.

    Ohio Mom

    June 14, 2022 at 12:26 pm

    @brantl: If you have any brains, you appreciate that you have white entitlement. They don’t have the self-awareness to grasp that. I am talking about the followers here. Their leadership are just cynical manipulators.

  238. 238.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 14, 2022 at 12:26 pm

    @Kay: There’s this idea that in a post-industrial white-collar world, it makes sense for people to keep working longer. And certainly my work doesn’t physically destroy me like hard agricultural or factory work would. But I really do wonder how much longer I can keep doing it–with age I gain valuable experience and I can stay current by making an effort, but at the same time, I can tell my brain and my endurance aren’t what they were at 30.

    The traditional path is to move up into management, but aside from whether everyone is temperamentally suited to be a manager, that’s a bit cruel as a general prescription since there just aren’t as many spaces further up the tree.

  239. 239.

    Ohio Mom

    June 14, 2022 at 12:27 pm

    Lunchtime calls. Catch you all later.

  240. 240.

    Eunicecycle

    June 14, 2022 at 12:27 pm

    @Kay: also the teacher would be the first target, since she MIGHT be carrying.

  241. 241.

    JustRuss

    June 14, 2022 at 12:29 pm

    Childhood friend of mine got arrested for Jan. 6.  Looks like he’s pleading out to Parading, Demonstrating, or Picketing in a Capitol Building.  “Parading”….riiiiight.

  242. 242.

    trnc

    June 14, 2022 at 12:29 pm

    @catclub: It will be really bad the day that a teacher is the shooter.

    Or a kid who got the gun away from the teacher.

  243. 243.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 14, 2022 at 12:30 pm

    @The Moar You Know: I remember when I was hanging out at Obsidian Wings, one of the regular conservative commenters sometimes brought up the idea that the current ethnic makeup of the United States was the result of a trick pulled on its white population by liberal elites without its consent. He really did not regard anyone who immigrated to the US post-1965 as legitimate.

    This is basically the Orban fanboy/Steve King thesis, and I think it’s deep in the brains of the American right.

  244. 244.

    stinger

    June 14, 2022 at 12:31 pm

    @Kay: Not only this, but the shootings take place in the shooter’s own school, meaning that chances are good that he is a current or former student of the teacher in question. I taught school, and each year my students quickly became “my kids”. I can’t imagine being expected to shoot one of my kids, no matter the threat they might pose. I suppose you might do it to save your current class, but how traumatizing.

  245. 245.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 12:33 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    And only 40% of Americans have a college degree. We’re mostly non degreed workers. Why does Lindsay Graham think they can work past 67? Will they be “healthier” or “live longer” than the group ten years older than them? No- they may be worse off. So what’s the justification for this?

    It’s not even just non degreed. In my observation all health care work that involves patient care is somewhat or very physically demanding. Any job dealing with small children is physically demanding. They should be forced to do that until 70?

    67 is old enough. They got that rip off through. They should be happy with it.

  246. 246.

    Eunicecycle

    June 14, 2022 at 12:34 pm

    @Kay: our priest just told us last Sunday that they are going to start locking the church doors 10 minutes after mass starts, beginning in 2 weeks. I feel kind of upset by that but I can’t figure out why. I’m in Ohio, so I don’t know if it’s a general reaction after Uvalde or a reaction to the new law DeWine signed

  247. 247.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 12:35 pm

    @JustRuss:

    I love archaic law words. “Parading”. I would plead to that. It doesn’t even sound bad.

  248. 248.

    StringOnAStick

    June 14, 2022 at 12:35 pm

    @Immanentize:  Excellent assessment. I want to say how much I appreciate your insight on the hearings.

  249. 249.

    James E Powell

    June 14, 2022 at 12:35 pm

    @Betty Cracker: 

    McFadden will probably acquit them of the felony charge and give them a slap on the wrist for the misdemeanors. He’s the judge who has publicly criticized the DoJ for treating insurrectionists more harshly than BLM protesters.

    [Judge Georg] Neithardt said that the lenient sentences for Hitler and his co-defendants were justified by “the purely patriotic” and “noble” and “unselfish” motives of the defendants.

  250. 250.

    Kay

    June 14, 2022 at 12:39 pm

    @Eunicecycle:

    I think about it now where I didn’t before. Not in an obsessive way but when I’m in some kind of enclosed space with a large group I think about it. We have a lovely old “community center” – it’s an auditorium with a stage built in the 1930s- the public school uses it for concerts and assemblies and for some reason I always think about it there. We always sit in the balcony and I find myself scanning, just back and forth.

  251. 251.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 12:40 pm

    @Eunicecycle:

    Smart church. We’re all at the OK Corral now. Nice to think your doors can always be open to welcome everyone, but what kind of welcome can a pile of shot-up, dead people provide?

  252. 252.

    Sister Golden Bear

    June 14, 2022 at 12:46 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: Saw a tweet from a college professor that conservative dudes have always been the loudest voices in the room in the professor’s decades of teaching.

    What’s different — and what’s infuriating the conservatives — is not only other voices speaking up now, but in particular other voices are now pushing back on them.

  253. 253.

    ian

    June 14, 2022 at 12:47 pm

    @artem1s: 
    Not to pedant, but CRT doesn’t really cover that. CRT is more about legal structures and institutions over time. That (who won the civil war) is basic US history, and if they don’t learn that in school, they are probably going to a private school or homeschooling.

  254. 254.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 14, 2022 at 12:48 pm

    @Kay: Members of Congress seem to be fine with working well into their 90s even if they are barely conscious, so they may figure the rest of us are OK with it too.

  255. 255.

    Eunicecycle

    June 14, 2022 at 12:48 pm

    @debbie: I know you’re right, it just gives me an unsettled feeling. Like Kay said above, now we all have to be checking our surroundings and looking for the nearest exit, etc. I guess I don’t feel very “free”.

  256. 256.

    Kent

    June 14, 2022 at 12:49 pm

    @Kay: There is an additional unfairness to it all.

    Take me and my brother.

    He is a small construction contractor who does tile and stonework.  He’s been working more or less full time since age 18.  So by the age of 67 he will have been working and paying into social security for 49 years.

    Me, I took the scenic route, went to college, goofed around, joined the Peace Corps, came back, did some itinerant work, went to grad school, and didn’t really start my first real full-time career job paying full time into social security until about age 30.  So when I hit age 67 I will have worked full time for 37 years or 12 less than my brother.

    Expand that experience across society and you will find that on average when blue collar non-college educated workers reach the same retirement age as highly educated white collar workers they will, on average, have put in many more years of work and will have paid many more years into social security.

    But since social security only counts your top 35 years of earnings, all those extra years will have been for nothing and forcing them to work even longer to claim benefits?   Just plain inequitable.

  257. 257.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 14, 2022 at 12:55 pm

    @Jojo: In many cases, the language of the 14th Amendment was the mechanism used to justify incorporating the protections in the Bill of Rights to the states. So if that’s inoperative, the Bill of Rights gets severely weakened too–“Congress shall make no law…” literally means the states get to violate these rights all they want (unless their constitutions say otherwise); the Federal constitution only restricts the federal government.

    That’s including the only court decision asserting state incorporation of the 2nd Amendment, come to think of it…………

  258. 258.

    cain

    June 14, 2022 at 12:56 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Hopefully she kicks him out of health insurance too – he doesn’t get that. Sucks to be him. Dude living in the basement – but probably still complains about immigrants being lazy.

  259. 259.

    debbie

    June 14, 2022 at 1:02 pm

    @Eunicecycle:

    Oh, believe me, I’m with you. I saw a poll this morning that said about 70% of Republicans believe in critical race theory to some extent. I had no idea this was so pervasive. It’s like we’re racing just to catch up. They can’t be dismissed anymore, can they?

  260. 260.

    Tony Jay

    June 14, 2022 at 1:05 pm

    @The Moar You Know:

    That doesn’t surprise me in the least. I guess that gives us a preview of what the FTFNYT’s angle of justification is going to be when a modern GOP candidate drops the bomb.

    “Traditional Rhetoric Makes A Return For Republicans In The Heartland of Heritage”

  261. 261.

    Sister Golden Bear

    June 14, 2022 at 1:11 pm

    @artem1s: 

    At least then the students will know who won the damn war and which side their state fought on.

    I suspect they damn well know that, it’s just that they’re on Team Treason In Defense of Slavery.

  262. 262.

    Jojo

    June 14, 2022 at 1:36 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: Oh, I know. The “Organic” Constitution concept is a stupid idea embraced by stupid people, many of whom prattle on about “da Con-stuh-TOOOO-shun!!!” all the time when they clearly either haven’t read it or didn’t understand what they did read.

  263. 263.

    Martin

    June 14, 2022 at 1:40 pm

    Hey, can someone raise the point that when the crowd starts chanting for the Vice President to be hung, that maybe you’re no longer in a ‘boys will be boys’ situation and leave? I mean, that was going on for an hour before they entered the building.

    Also, everyone needs to shut the fuck up about ‘politicizing’ any referrals to DOJ. Jan 6 was as pure a political act as there can be in the US. It’s simply not possible to make anything around Jan 6 apolitical.  Stop trying. It cannot be helped that every referral will be of a Republican. They made that choice, not the committee.

  264. 264.

    Paul in KY

    June 14, 2022 at 1:49 pm

    @Ohio Mom: It is just too easy to murder people with a modern weapon that is expressly designed to kill people and to work very efficiently all the time.  Somehow, we have to get these semi automatic rifles with the large magazines out of commission.

    Maybe a bill that makes it very hard to purchase them from a certain date on & grandfathers in the ones already bought. You then have a buyback program that gives good money for them (because a well maintained one is worth $1000 or more) and crushes all guns returned in this manner.

  265. 265.

    Soprano2

    June 14, 2022 at 1:56 pm

    @Kay: A lot of people don’t know that they already raised the SS full eligibility age to 67! I’m 61, and I’m the first year that can’t collect full SS until age 67.

  266. 266.

    Soprano2

    June 14, 2022 at 1:59 pm

    @Kay: My husband said he used to hear this from his dad. My husband is 75! People have been saying it for decades, and it’s never happened.

  267. 267.

    Soprano2

    June 14, 2022 at 2:02 pm

    @Kay: I wish they could come and work with me, to see some of the guys I work with. When you’re doing hard physical labor, working until 60 is unrealistic.

  268. 268.

    Elizabelle

    June 14, 2022 at 2:46 pm

    @Immanentize:  I think you are right, and right with yesterday’s comment, about the J6 Committee taking down the structures that support Trumpism/fascism, what have you.

  269. 269.

    Captain C

    June 14, 2022 at 3:08 pm

    @BC in Illinois:

    “I spoke with former President Trump about his wirefraud activities. He acknowledged it was wrong and promised not to swindle another Quarter of a Billion Dollars again.”
    – Susan Collins

    “Also, pay no mind to the nice new deck on my vacation house, or the brand new pickups in the driveway there.”  – Susan Collins, probably

  270. 270.

    stinger

    June 14, 2022 at 3:31 pm

    @Soprano2:

    When you’re doing hard physical labor, working until 60 is unrealistic.

    And then they go back to school and learn how to code, and do that until they’re 67. Easy-peasey!

  271. 271.

    misterpuff

    June 14, 2022 at 3:43 pm

    @eversor: 

    People have been saying that since I started working 45 years ago and now I’m two months away from qualifying at 65 and eight months (except I will be working for at least 2 more years).

    I’ve never doubted “The Third Rail”.

  272. 272.

    CindyH

    June 14, 2022 at 3:45 pm

    @Kay:  same here –
    I watched “The Janes” last night and am looking to do something to help women when I retire.

  273. 273.

    prostratedragon

    June 14, 2022 at 4:29 pm

    @OzarkHillbilly:  He was trying to get a signal to the burner to contact his North Korean operator when …

  274. 274.

    J R in WV

    June 14, 2022 at 5:48 pm

    @eversor: ​
     

    And now you are a snowman cookie, destined to live in the pie safe for evermore!!

  275. 275.

    sab

    June 14, 2022 at 6:14 pm

    @Immanentize: My bosses aren’t having any luck replacing us olds. Problem is a whole generation got skipped on training. Also too in my field they liked hiring married women to save on health insurance (use husband’s policy). And now we are tired, and our husbands are retired, and we are taking care of our own ancient parents.

  276. 276.

    sab

    June 14, 2022 at 6:18 pm

    @artem1s: Especially since he ran as a reasonable conservative who wasn’t afraid to do sensible gun laws. Almost every police chief in the state is horrified.

    I sure as hell wouldn’t have wanted my weird seventh grade social studies teacher to be armed.1

  277. 277.

    eversor

    June 14, 2022 at 7:32 pm

    @Soprano2: 

    People said they’d never overturn Roe as well. And I don’t think anybody saw Trump or Jan 6 coming. They are going to go for all the marbles.

    This is America. We are going to a speed run of Germany prior to WW2 but do it dumber and with more disasterous results. And when we finally get good things decades later, it will be better than now but not as good as Germany.

    RIP THE BANDAID OFF!!!

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