Move along, citizens, nothing to see here, according to John Eastman:
I can categorically confirm that at no time did I discuss with Mrs. Thomas or Justice Thomas any matters pending or likely to come before the Court. We have never engaged in such discussions, would not engage in such discussions, and did not do so in December 2020 or anytime else.
What’s that — you say you’re not necessarily prepared to take the word of a scheming, traitorous shit-weasel who tried to orchestrate a coup to keep a deranged, embarrassing clown in the Oval Office after the citizens of this nation voted to toss his loser orange ass out? Yeah, me neither.
In fact, since Eastman included Clarence Thomas in his categorical denial — when no one alleged a direct conversation between the two — I’m revising upward my calculation of the odds that both Thomases were actively involved in the plot.
Open thread.
Leto
Fuck them all, with rusty implements. All of it is coming out. All of it.
Baud
Say it under oath.
James E Powell
“He denied it. That settles it for us.” – Chuck Todd & everyone at FTFNYT.
Steeplejack
Well, at least the son of a bitch had to deny it, as the L.B.J. anecdote goes.
Steeplejack
I just tuned in to MSNBC after a gap in my monitoring of the hearing. Did I hear correctly that it came out that Eastman asked someone (Rudy?) about getting a pardon?
germy shoemangler
“Fifth”
“Fifth”
“Fifth”
(Eastman testifying)
zhena gogolia
@Steeplejack: Yes, he asked for a pardon. I can’t remember who, maybe Rudy.
pat
Hmm. Did not “discuss”. Email maybe?
PAM Dirac
If I recall Jacobs’ testimony from today, when he got Eastman to admit that if it went to the Supreme Court, his theory would lose 9-0, Eastman then said that it would never get to the Supreme Court because they would just punt on a “political question”. I guess Eastman will try to claim that the coup plotting was perfectly fine to discuss with the corrupt couple because he was confident that the court would never have to rule.
JPL
Eastman did not speak about a matter currently in front of the court in December 2020. cool
JPL
All those that have testified under oath before the committee will still get in front of cameras and talk about irregularities in the election. They count on the fact that most journalists don’t follow up.
piratedan
@pat: discuss… no, plan… yes
the pollyanna from hell
@Steeplejack: I was offered the chance to edit your remark at #4. I am flattered, of course, but I just don’t think it would be right.
Scout211
@Steeplejack:
In an email to Giuliani (which was highlighted in the hearing) he asked to be put on the list for possible pardons.
Leto
Is his/their mouth moving? Lying. Simple as that. It’s as natural as breathing. Fuck’em.
germy shoemangler
Eastman’s hat is too big for his head
bbleh
How can you even BREATHE a WORD of criticism of someone who has SUCH a pillar up his rectitude?!
Steeplejack
Rep. Elaine Luria (D-VA) is lionizing Pence a bit on MSNBC—talking about him on the loading dock at the Capitol on 1/6, leaning on the car waiting to whisk him away (not even a chair to sit on!), but he was working his phone and refused to “give up the ship.” Puh-leeze.
Steeplejack
@the pollyanna from hell:
It’s a known but minor bug. It appears that you can edit it, if you try, but any changes don’t go through.
Wag
To hell with Eastman and the whole lot of them. I’m very disappointed that Eastman was a visiting scholar at my University‘s school of law. Thank God I’m not a lawyer.
JPL
@Steeplejack: Today’s hearings showed how close we were to having the government overthrown, so I understand her feelings. She certainly knows more than I do.
Pence is finished politically, so he might as well write a book. Instead, he’ll praise trump thinking he has a future.
Baud
@Steeplejack:
She’s in a tough reelection. I can see her trying to look nice for the 5 decent Republicans in her district.
germy shoemangler
Tony G
@Baud: Exactly. Make that asshole put himself at risk of being prosecuted for perjury by saying it under oath. Instead, when he was under oath, he took the fifth about 100 times. To me someone like Eastman is an order of magnitude worse than those Proud Boys goons. He could have just had a comfortable life as a well compensated lawyer. Instead he tries to destroy U.S. democracy.
bbleh
@Steeplejack: Fine. Per earlier comments somewhere, one consistent theme of these hearings has been to drive wedges into the Trump coalition. First it was the rioters were duped, and the subsequent donors were duped even worse, and all by Trump and the bad people around him. “You’re not bad; THEY’RE bad, and they lied to you.” And now it’s that Pence was the hero and Trump and his minions were trying to force him to do the wrong thing. “Godly law-abiding Mike Pence isn’t bad; Trump and Eastman are bad.”
You’re not going to convince a third of the country they’re wrong by holding some hearings. Rather, you need to convince them that they were misled by bad people, and it’s all THOSE guys’ fault. And that … may get enough traction to be useful.
pat
Say what you will about Pence but it is pretty clear that he single-handedly saved our democracy that day . He was the only person who could have continued to open the electoral ballots, without him going back to that room and continuing the session, who knows what would have happened next.
Ken
In addition to the “suspiciously specific denial” trope which Betty noted, this also has the makings of the trope where someone says something, and immediately evidence is produced that it’s completely false.
So if the writers of our timeline remain lazy, by tomorrow we’ll be seeing text messages, or maybe hearing phone conversations, where Eastman and Justice Thomas discuss strategy for getting five votes to declare insurrection constitutional.
pat
and there were some really believable threats against Pence. Imagine if he had been murdered.
JPL
@pat: After all is said and done, and trump and his synchophants are in hand cuffs, I’d love to see Biden give Cheney, Thompson and Pence a medal of honor.
Pence’s future in politics is doubtful, because a third of the country won’t vote for him.
Villago Delenda Est
“I’m going to give you some free legal advice, John. Get a great effin’ criminal defense attorney. You’re going to need one.”
JWR
I enjoyed hearing Luttig say this. a “revolution within a constitutional crisis”: Powerful stuff there. Scary stuff, as well.
eclare
@Ken:
So true. Loudermilk changing his story multiple times over whether or not he gave a Capitol tour is the latest example.
Mike in NC
I had today’s hearing on in the background and they kept referring to ‘Doctor Eastman’, which is much more dignified than ‘Traitor Eastman’.
Leto
@Wag: a conservative was teaching at a university? I thought universities, and by extension all higher learning, absolutely shunned conservatives? That it was all “cancel culture” and “wokeness” and blah blah blah blah. They’re such shitbags. How does the sack of poop still have a job like that? Why wasn’t he immediately canned? The fact that all these fucks continue to find sugar daddies/mommas will always be irritating.
Steeplejack
@Baud:
Yeah, I’m aware. It just made my gorge rise a bit.
Ruckus
@Leto:
I don’t believe his mouth has to move for him to be lying.
Because when he says to himself in his tiny, shitty mind that he’s not lying, he is actually lying. He may not understand or believe he’s lying but he is.
I’m wondering how many people ask for presidential pardons normally, you know when they aren’t planning to overthrow the government. Because it seems like a hell of a lot of the people that stood around in the shit for brains whitehouse trying to hold on to an immense amount of bullshit that should have caused a notice on the door that entering was dangerous to one’s health and to the country they were trying to destroy.
Mallard Filmore
@Tony G:
I object to that phrasing getting used all over the place. It makes an unwarranted assumption that the country would roll on exactly the same except for voting. No, the change would not stop there. If the coup had worked it would destroy the politics, the economy, the culture, the country.
The USA would end up like Russia or China, where the law is whatever the local party head says it is, unless a higher up wants to say otherwise.
pat
@JPL:
I’d go along with that. See some more heads explode.. Maybe on both sides. hehe.
Tom Levenson
Hit dogs holler.
debbie
@JPL:
Agreed. I feel like normies were asleep at the wheel while all these machinations were set in motion.
Eunicecycle
@pat: and wasn’t it some interns that saved the box the EC ballots were in? What would have happened if the mob had gotten ahold of them and destroyed them. The states would have reissued them, I guess, but with the delay there would have more chances for shenanigans.
JWR
@germy shoemangler: And by “EQUAL TIME” you know he means a whole ‘nother hearing with all his buddies from the Eastman School of Government.
Steeplejack
@zhena gogolia:
I’m seeing Luttig on video for the first time now (catching up on MSNBC), and OMG your Bob and Ray STOA thing is spot on!
Baud
@Eunicecycle:
I believe I read there were duplicates somewhere.
pat
@Eunicecycle:
More candidates for a medal from Biden!!
Ruckus
@pat:
If it was up to me to be one of the votes to ever let Pence in public office ever again, I’d vote no in a heartbeat. Yes he did what he was supposed to do, count the ballots. And yes he may have been near being killed for that, but he’s still about as useless as it gets. He did his job when push came to shove, but he backed SFB for 4 yrs before that and he was crap as a politician on his own. I refuse to reward crap when there are actual good, reasonable people still standing.
Eunicecycle
@Baud: that’s a relief.
SpaceUnit
Before we go building that ivory statue of Mike Pence let’s remember that he consulted with Dan Fricking Quayle about how he might carry out Trump and Eastman’s plan and get away with it. He wanted to do it. He just realized that most of his co-conspirators were crazy and not very bright. He balked at the odds, not the principles. Screw him.
And now that I think about it, if you were to commission a statue of Pence alabaster would be a better choice.
pat
I believe he has very little chance to get actually elected again. He was not even popular in his state (can’t remember where) and had no chance of reelection when trump picked him, according to my recollections of previous comments.
In other words, I can’t see ANYONE from either party voting for him.
Here is someone on MSNBC saying Pence should actually TESTIFY. Maybe that would be necessary before he gets his medal. //
The Moar You Know
Well, he mentioned Clarence even though no one mentioned Clarence?
Lawyers have wet dreams about that kind of shit.
Bill Arnold
Does it count as “come before the court” if the SCOTUS decides that it is too political to get involved in? Because that was his stated bet, that SCOTUS would be unlikely to take up the case.
Uninterested in what Eastman says on his substack; no information value. If he wants to make statements under oath, fine, we’ll pay attention. In an alternative just world, he would already be in prison for sedition. IMO.
eclare
A friend just forwarded a tweet to me saying Judge Luttig recently suffered a stroke. He thought this hearing was so important he had to testify.
zhena gogolia
@pat: Yeah, credit where credit is due.
pat
@eclare: That would explain his response.
eta: and one has to be impressed by it, given the effort it took for his response.
Dangerman
Did they think it through? What did they think would happen if Trump was selected again?
Maybe they did think this through, they knew it wouldn’t succeed, but they would be able to fleece the rubes for all they could get.
ETA: …and why was THIS TIME so important that they were willing to risk life and limb for Trump? Eastman and Pillow Dude don’t have Secret Service protection.
The Thin Black Duke
@Mallard Filmore: Well said. It wouldn’t be “What’s the matter with Kansas?” anymore. The entire U.S.A. would be Kansas.
@Mallard Filmore:
zhena gogolia
@eclare: Oh, then I salute him.
Elizabelle
@eclare:
My guess! Aphasia from a stroke. I salute Judge Luttig. That is courage.
debbie
@pat:
Maybe now people will get off his back.
Lapassionara
@eclare: that explains his slow speech. He was a rock star in conservative circles. For him to be so public with his analysis and judgment is a BFD.
Elizabelle
@Lapassionara: yes it is. Props to Judge Luttig. History will treat him kindly.
bjacques
@Steeplejack: obligatory: fuck LBJ
And I say this as someone who gave 10-1/2 of his career to the LBJ Space Center.
heckuva denial there.
Albatrossity
Eastman – “…any matters pending or likely to come before the Court.”
Lawyerly weaseling. Or weasely lawyering. Take your pick. Not necessarily a lie, but also not the whole truth, I suspect.
Ocotillo
This all very amazing and our national MSM will say something about it…….after a handful of stories about INFLATION! Didya know prices are going up?
AWOL
Why the fuck is Robert Ray on Melber’s show? This guy is a freak.
Martin
@Steeplejack:
Reminder that accepting a pardon requires an admission of guilt. A pardon doesn’t mean ‘this person can’t be prosecuted’. That’s what ‘immunity’ is. A pardon means, ‘this person committed the crime, and there is no further punishment needed’.
The president can’t give immunity, so the pardon is the ‘get out of jail free’ card that the President can offer, but it comes with a really important string that’s especially important if the pardon isn’t granted.
Renie
@Steeplejack: Everyone praising Pence is annoying. He should be testifying under oath in public and reveal everything he knows. The fact the Proud Boys were going to kill him should push him to do this.
Doug R
@Ruckus:
Pence managed to mishandle TWO deadly epidemics.
Baud
@AWOL:
You have answered your own question.
debbie
@Martin:
You think Eastman was making that distinction?
Scout211
@eclare: Do you have a link with that information?
I am searching everywhere and I am finding no references to an illness or stroke and no press releases about his health.
Ruckus
@Doug R:
Yep. He is just a less shitty person than the shit head he worked under for 4 yrs. What a great way to end a shitty career. Make it shittier.
That of course is the motto of the rethuglican party, “Do the very least for anyone else and steal everything not tied down.”
Ken
@Lapassionara: On the other hand, the stroke allows those same conservative circles to claim that he’s only saying these things because of diminished capacity. Although they’ll probably call it “brain damage”.
wenchacha
@Mallard Filmore: Balkanization
lowtechcyclist
@PAM Dirac:
Yeah, we’ve all memory-holed the Supreme Court deciding the 2000 election.
Raven
@zhena gogolia: It doesn’t matter to all the smart ass motherfuckers here who want a goddam performance. Fuck y’all punks.
JWR
Has this been mentioned here, because if it was, I totally missed it (From NBC):
Time for another deprogramming! But I guess it’s like recovering alcoholics, of which I am one. Once recovering, always recovering, and being so close to seats of power must really tickle the cult-able brain.
JPL
@Raven:&that’nbsp;@Raven: Fortunately most mentioned how slow it was but didn’t openly mock him. Thanks for your opinion though
Raven
@zhena gogolia:
Raven
@JPL: that’s not what I read here.
apocalipstick
@Steeplejack:
I honestly wonder if Pence was afraid he would be ‘disappeared’ if he got in the car.
JaySinWA
@Scout211: I see a lot of tweets now stating Luttig had a stroke as fact without any back up. I saw early speculation today to that effect. There is no evidence of this that I can see online. I suspect the original “maybe he had a stroke” has morphed into he did have a stroke like a game of telephone.
Skepticat
Before realizing he simply couldn’t, Pence tried very hard to find a way to do what Chump wanted. From Woodward/Costa’s Peril: “Pence sought advice from Dan Quayle, the only living Republican vice president who had been in the position of certifying an election where his ticket was the losing one. And it was Quayle — the same man who has been something of a national punchline for a decade — who talked Pence off the ledge and into doing the right thing.”
That said, he eventually did the right thing, but he doesn’t deserve to be lionized for it. Cheney and Kinzinger, however, have put their political careers in jeopardy to do their duty and the best for our country.
The whole committee and the hearings have been amazingly disciplined and incredibly well organized. No showboating, no grandstanding, but a parade of damning facts.
germy shoemangler
@apocalipstick:
I got the impression he wasn’t afraid of physical harm. What he feared was that it wouldn’t look right to see the VP “fleeing” the capitol. And he knew that if they drove him away, the vote certification wouldn’t happen, and Eastman’s delaying tactic would work.
pat
@apocalipstick:
He certainly knew that he would not be coming back that day or night to finish the electoral vote count. What would have been done with him is a huge question.
JaySinWA
@JaySinWA: Here is Luttig from a May 25th interview. His speech was slow and halting then as well, not quite as slow as today. He seemed to have some trouble breathing while talking.
He may have been trying to compensate for his tendency to use “ah” as a fill word, and may also be fighting a stutter.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/interview/j-michael-luttig
Given the inevitable criticism of his speaking, this was probably a very difficult decision for him to agree to be questioned live.
Skepticat
@eclare: I wondered whether that was the reason for his delays and delivery. He’s yet another person who brings great honor and bravery to these proceedings.
Burnspbesq
@Leto:
Tenure is a wonderful thing. Until it isn’t. Also, I lived in the town where Chapman is located for 28 years; if called to do so, I could and would testify that Eastman is exactly the kind of “scholar” that Chapman’s rich Republican donors want. I did have one friend on the Chapman Law faculty who was highly respected in the profession—but he taught tax, so he was allowed to be apolitical.
Bill Arnold
@apocalipstick:
Pence trusted his own secret service detail. He did not trust the rest of the Secret Service, probably because he knew that some were Trump cultists. He did not get into that car because it might have been driven by a Trump cultist. OK, one reason, but he was afraid he’d be driven away for “safe-keeping” (and possible gun accident) and that Grassley would preside (?) over the declaration of D.J. Trump as Dictator for Life, or sending it to back to the legislatures of selected states, with unrest in the streets resulting in violence and martial law. By my reading of statements, at least. An interview with Pence under oath might be interesting.
They do not understand how close they came to triggering a low-grade civil war and maybe an eventual break-up of the US. (Politicians and judges, including Republicans, are soft targets for people with sniper(/elk) rifles firing from 500-1000 meters. RW Death squads would have soon appeared. Etc. Even non-violent methods can break a government (in fact, they are more likely to succeed). Breathtaking misreading of America, by those with minds pickled in a closed cesspool of RW “information”.)
Another Scott
@Leto: Yup.
dsqureddigest (from 2004):
tl;dr – Never trust anything said by a known liar. Eastman is a known liar.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kay
@Dangerman:
They thought the resulting riots and unrest would be quelled by police or military in a matter of weeks and they would remain in power and go on with their business get on with their “work”. They were confident a majority of GOP electeds would go along. If there were pockets of resistance after any mass demonstrations were quelled they would imprison those citizens.
This was the working assumption of all of these people including Ginni Thomas. It had to be. The idea that they had “no clue” what would happen after the coup is just nonsense. Of course they thought about it. They decided to put down any resisters by force. That’s the only logical step after “coup” and they all knew it.
lowtechcyclist
@SpaceUnit:
I disagree. The only thing he had to do to quite possibly make it work was a very passive thing that nobody could have blamed him for: all he had to do was do what his Secret Service agent said, and get in the car.
Whatever the odds of its working or not working from there, the odds of his getting blamed by either side were close to zero. So I’d say he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, he was a worse-than-worthless schmuck in the rest of his political career. But some people have that one moment that outweighs practically everything else. Not gonna build him a statue, but not gonna piss on his grave either.
Kay
The new norm would be Republican Presidents, forever, because the GOP VP would decide every election. They all knew what “came after”. There was no blank space there in the minds of these planners.
They won’t say it in testimony in this hearing because it’s unthinkable (and implied) but of course there was an “after”. Trump, Kushner, all the far Right lawyers, they considered and probably discussed “the after”.
Bill Arnold
@Kay:
This was stupid. Trump’s personal mortal half-life would have been measured in months. I know Adam has said that in his opinion the US would have just let Trump seize power without effective resistance. He was wrong. IMO. Civil war would have been the result, low-grade and soft/non-violent initially but not staying that way, and with hard core dissent in the US armed forces, in state national guards, and inside much of the Federal Government. These Republicans are stupid selfish arrogant psychopaths.
Kay
Ginni Thomas believes she has the right and authority to DISCARD the votes of 81 million people.
The delusional arrogance of these conservatives is just off the charts. None of them should be allowed anywhere near government. They’re authoritarians, every single one of them. What exactly are they teaching in these Right wing homes and schools that they produce so many people like her?
Sister Golden Bear
@apocalipstick: Possibly. And/or as stated he didn’t want to public to see the VP fleeing the Capitol. And/or he was worried he’d be stashed in a secure location — against his will — just long enough for the other Trumpers to overthrow the election. Which I suspect was a likelier scenario than offing Pence.
(Not because Trump wouldn’t be glad to be rid of that turbulent VP, but it would be messy given that at least some Secret Service agents were loyal to Pence. Harder to cover-up a shoot out among members of Pence’s protective team.)
Remember Grassley’s odd comment prior to Jan. 6 that he expected to run the certification since Pence wouldn’t be there. Which I’m sure didn’t go unnoticed by Pence and his people.
Though if Pence were smart, all three scenarios, and probably more, would be of concern.
The Golux
@JWR:
The term “deprogramming” always makes me thing of a high school classmate who narrowly escaped being abducted for “deprogramming” back in 1973. I learned of his ordeal by reading about it in Time Magazine.
J R in WV
@Steeplejack:
Evidently Judge Luttig suffered a stroke not long ago, which has affected his speech to a minor degree — but he thought this was important enough to appear in person, and take his time, and speak as well as he possibly could.
I admire him for his courage to do so well under very trying circumstances. Could not have been easy to go into that hearing after recovery from a stroke!
Baud
@Bill Arnold:
Being an internet denizen, I would have blamed Democrats.
Kay
@Bill Arnold:
I lean more toward Adam, sadly. I think there is a powerful, nearly unbreakable belief among “elites” that the PERCEPTION that things are normal is more important then anything. Any sustained dissent would have come fron the public and the public can be put down fairly easily.
I actually don’t think it would be military-led though. I think they’re better than police. I think it would be police assisted by federal prosecutors.
You’re watching this right now. They know Clarence and Ginni Thomas are corrupt. They know Thomas shouldn’t be hearing any of these cases or even on that court. It is more important to them that they have the appearance of a credible court than it is to have a credible court. They think the risk is saying “hey- he’s corrupt!”
Bill Arnold
@Sister Golden Bear:
Here’s the Grassley thing, Jan 5 2021:
(Have read that they walked it back somehow.; haven’t looked.)
Sister Golden Bear
@Kay: One reason protestors on our side stayed the hell away from DC that day were the widespread warnings among activists that Trump wanted to have an incident that he could use to declare martial law. So I have no doubt that was part of the plan.
Another Scott
@Bill Arnold:
(IIRC) Pence’s guy Greg Jacob said he explicitly told Eastman things like that – that there would be violence in the streets if he got his way. Eastman replied, roughly, “there’s been violence in the country’s history in the past in defense of the American system, so no big deal…”
TFG’s guys wanted to keep power for themselves and were going to keep pushing and pushing and pushing people to give it to them, no matter the rules or the laws or the consequences. Because they figured that they would not be the ones suffering any consequences. It’s all upside for them. It doesn’t matter if they would have taken up arms if Al Gore had tried to do in 2001 what they themselves tried to do in 2021…
They knew exactly what they were doing, even if all their arguments were stupid and insane and unAmerican, and they knew it. The outcome is what mattered to them, not the means.
Grr…,
Scott.
oatler
@Bill Arnold:
“a low-grade civil war”. I wish it would cool down to that, since it seems to me we’ve been fighting the hot one since 2016 if not earlier.
Baud
Does anyone know if the made this statement after Ginni agreed to talk to the committee?
BlueGuitarist
@Kay:
They planned out their violent mopping up operation in detail:
https://www.thebulwark.com/notes-on-an-authoritarian-conspiracy-inside-the-claremont-institutes-79-days-to-inauguration-report/
J R in WV
@Scout211:
HIPPA keeps personal health data private. This guy is a private individual, holding no public office now. Why would you expect to learn details about his private health issues in the internet?
Who exactly would issue a press release about YOUR health?
Kay
@Sister Golden Bear:
I don’t know about “martial law”. I don’t think he would need it. We’re rule followers, right, stable government, so we always turn to the rule “what would he do to make this quasi legal?”
It’s a coup. He doesn’t do anything to make it quasi legal. They were OUTSIDE the law. The existing laws and norms would no longer apply. He doesn’t declare martial law because martial law doesn’t matter. He just seized the Presidency. Martial law is a detail.
The Thin Black Duke
If the coup happened, I don’t think POC would have marched meekly into the “camps”.
Kay
@BlueGuitarist:
I love the kind of trailing off people do. “Well, POST coup….that’s a problem they didn’t consider!”
Of course they considered it. They knew it would be violent too– Eastman admitted it. He welcomed the violence. Portrayed it as patriotism. They wanted us to take up arms against each other.
Bill Arnold
@Kay:
The public elsewhere has toppled governments, including (in fact usually) through non-violent means, when sufficiently pushed. The methods are quite usable even in the US; organization in the face of active efforts to disrupt organization would be interesting but not intractable. And guns are the wild card in the US. (Russian generals are being killed by snipers in Ukraine.)
SpaceUnit
@lowtechcyclist:
I stand by my words. He didn’t get into the car because he feared for his own skin. He felt safer with his own security detail.
If he “switched sides” at the last moment it was because he realized Trump wanted him dead.
Scout211
@J R in WV:
You make a good point. Yet most public figures do release that kind of information, especially when they are in the public like this. I would think that with this kind of public exposure he would want that information released. Look at all the speculation that is starting right now all over social media about his health.
But yes, if he wanted to keep it private, that is his right of course.
Kay
@BlueGuitarist:
They’re right about this. Literally the worst police force subdivisions in the country. Little fiefdoms run by authoritarians with no accountablity and no professionalism. The sheriffs would line up to to quell the citizen- dissidents.
Soprano2
@lowtechcyclist: No, we haven’t. You’ll never hear me say George W was elected in 2000 – he was appointed by the Supreme Court. I will never forget that injustice to the American people.
pat
@SpaceUnit:
I don’t believe he “switched sides.” He was never going to go along with the trump/eastman plot.
Kay
@Bill Arnold:
As a practical matter I think the size and geographic distances in the US make this not a good comparison. Too- recall we would have say 20-30 million Trumpsters who would volunteer to attack their fellow citizens. The SCALE of the US is different.
Ghost of Joe Liebling’s Dog
@lowtechcyclist:
OK, then – maybe if he does a Great McGinty and flees the country, that’d be enough.
Kay
@pat:
Agreed. I believe his story. He was afraid the Secret Service wouldn’t allow him back in to certify the vote.
It was actually important to me that they certify that day. I didn’t want the insurrectionists to win that round. I was hugely relieved when they reassembled. They can’t run away.
zhena gogolia
@Raven: Whatever. He said all the right things. I salute him.
Bill Arnold
@BlueGuitarist:
That The Bulwark piece is interesting, thank you. The people involved should be in prison.
Here’s a full link:
Notes on an Authoritarian Conspiracy: Inside the Claremont Institute’s “79 Days to Inauguration” Report – Claremont’s post-election war game provides a window into the group’s ambitions. (CHRISTIAN VANDERBROUK NOVEMBER 8, 2021)
Another Scott
@eclare: I didn’t have that impression about him at all, listening on the radio and then seeing it on YouTube. He struck me as just being incredibly careful about saying the exact words that he wanted to say.
Especially in his closing statement where he said, among other things, that (roughly) “Trump and his supporters and allies are a clear and present danger to American democracy. And more than that…” (Those words are powerful, but they probably make Popehat’s hair stand on end, as that was the language OWH used in his “fire in a crowded theater” decision (which he rejected a year later)…) He has to know that there are kooks out there who would like nothing better than to do harm to him and his loved ones. :-(
He was speaking clearly and carefully. His sentences were carefully constructed, as you would expect for a federal judge. I don’t know if he’s had medical issues, but I don’t think we should assume so.
He could also be a member of the STOA. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
SpaceUnit
@pat:
He wanted to go along with it. That’s what his consultation with Dan Quayle was about. It was Quayle that finally convinced him that it simply wasn’t a doable thing. It was Quayle that made Pence start thinking hard about the odds of pulling it off.
Maybe we ought to give Dan Quayle that medal.
BlueGuitarist
@Kay:
Bulwark article points out “barely concealed bloodlust runs through the report” of the war games of the “79 days” planned by Eastman’s group, a lot of attention to the sheriffs, law enforcement favoring the coup, and social media.
BlueGuitarist
@Bill Arnold:
Thanks for posting the full link
Kay
@zhena gogolia:
I thought he was fine too but people are really uncomfortable with long spaces between words, especially in court or in a forum like that so I get the complaints.
I didn’t understand why he kept hitting “historical precedent” as the justification they would use. I knew the plan was to keep it out of courts as a “political question” so it couldn’t be LEGAL precedent but maybe that’s why he kept telling us that in that cryptic, warning way? To make sure we knew the coup wouldn’t be a legal process but a political process?
Kay
@BlueGuitarist:
They weren’t planning a legal process. They were planning a political process. They would assert – whatever- some made up “historical precedent’ – and hope the Right wing authoritarian followers at all levels of government and the public would go along and insist it was legitimate.
Take it outside laws. It’s not in there. It’s another battle field entirely.
pat
@SpaceUnit: so how do you know that? I can understand Pence wanting to talk to other VPs and how they saw the upcoming session but I have seen nothing that would suggest that he really wanted to follow the trump plot until he talked to Quayle.
David ☘The Establishment☘ Koch
Surely, we can take the word of a man who pleaded the 5th amendment over 100 times to Congress
AnonPhenom
@PAM Dirac:
If I remember it correctly before Jacob got Eastman to agree to his “9 to nothing” position, Eastman was arguing a 7 to 2 outcome. I’m reading that as: yeah, he was in touch with one or both of the Thomases and Clarence had one other SCOTUS Time Lord who want to take us all back to thd 1800’s on board.
Kay
To me asking what these lawless people would do after the coup is like asking what the bank robbers do with the money after the heist. They don’t fill out the necessary forms for large depositsand then report it to the IRS. They look for some criminals to launder it.
They left the “legal” realm when they launched the coup. What came after would also be illegal, but it wouldn’t matter.
Kay
This may have been posted but it’s good work so I’m posting it.
One of the many, many ordinary victims of the CRT panic that cynical and awful (and mostly well paid) operatives ginned up.
Let’s see if any of the substack millionaires pick it up and allow their subscribers to read it. I doubt it.
vbreakwater
@Kay: It was in reference to the presidential election of 1800 where electors for Jefferson were in dispute.
JaySinWA
@J R in WV:
@Scout211: was and is correct in that there is no reporting that I can see either. HIPAA (not HIPPA) is not relevant to the point that Twitter is abuzz with people stating as fact that he had a stroke, with no supporting evidence. HIPAA does allow for the possibility that a stroke was kept private, but in no way supports the claims that it happened.
People are echoing the stroke claim here. Where did this come from? I think people speculated and then others reiterated speculation as fact.
More importantly it is not relevant to the content of his speech unless you want to claim impairment of is thinking.
SFBayAreaGal
@SpaceUnit: I agree and I am not a fan of him. Dan Quayle should get the medal.
BlueGuitarist
@Kay:
Yes. you are exactly right
(I meant that they thought the police unions would support the coup),
SpaceUnit
‘@pat:
It’s my understanding that Pence came to Quayle specifically to ask how to pull off the Trump / Eastman plot.
Look, Mike Pence could have resigned out of “principle” at any point in that administration over any number of scandals. But he didn’t. He stuck around. I have little doubt that he would have stood by passively as these traitors killed off the constitution. He just got cold feet at the idea of being the trigger man in front of God and all the world.
tom
@J R in WV: HIPAA (not HIPPA) prevents health care providers from disclosing patient health information without permission from the patient, or unless there are specific agreements in place between health care providers and other organizations they may provide that information to, such as insurers.
It does not prevent people from talking about their health information, or prevent friends, relatives, acquaintances, etc from talking about other’s health status.
So Luttig’s family, spokesperson, or anyone else other than Luttig’s providers who knew about it could disclose it without violating HIPAA.
Danielx
@Kay:
All true, and that’s the worst part of all: that they didn’t care what the consequences might be. At some point the arguments go from ballots to bullets.
gwangung
@The Thin Black Duke: Yes, and that’s a feature to these asswipes. They’d LOVE to paint up a racial civil war.
(Even though I’d be there In the uprising).
David ☘The Establishment☘ Koch
@Wag:
You went to Trump University?
David ☘The Establishment☘ Koch
@pat:
Chancellor Kurt von Schleicher called, he says “take it from me, never ride the tiger”.
Betty
@eclare: Several people suggested something like that was responsible for his halting speech as he seemed at times to struggle to find the right word. It clearly meant a lot to him to be there.
pat
@SpaceUnit:
I find it a bit unlikely that Pence thought that Quayle could tell him “how to pull off the coup,” I hadn’t seen that, but I can see Pence asking “MYGOD what should I do now..??” Or simply looking for someone that was not implicated in what he would be doing, to give him a bit of support for what he knew he should be doing.
pat
wow MSNBC now: Why did Pence not say weeks before Jan 6 that he could not do what trump wanted to do…. Maybe the “hang mike pence” cries would have not occurred.
More going on now on msnbc.
eta: on the other hand, maybe he would have fallen out of a 6th story window before Jan. 6 if he had said what he planned to do..
Mallard Filmore
@Bill Arnold:
Kicked off by some GOP/GQP faction. Flush with power they would not be able to hold back with jailing of Democratic leadership, implementing White Jesus policies to turn the USA into a Christian Nation, anti-rainbow, anti mixed race, and anti all the rest.
We would go over the event horizon.
David ☘The Establishment☘ Koch
@Raven:
“It’s showtime, folks!” ~ All That Jazz
SpaceUnit
@pat:
It’s my understanding that the conversation was along the lines of “How do I do what they’re asking of me AND cover my own ass?”
In any event I refuse to sing the praises of Mike Pence as the man who saved America. He would have happily watched our democracy die so long as all the dirty work was being done by state legislatures and crooked election officials.
Your mileage might vary, as they say.
Wyatt Salamanca
@SpaceUnit:
Pence clearly wanted to do the wrong thing and only with great reluctance did the correct thing. He’s a pathetic, craven scumbag who did the absolute bare minimum on January 6th. If he had any real brains or guts, he would have invoked the 25th amendment after Trump incited his supporters to lynch him. Pence is more concerned with his own political viability in 2024 than with the lives of his own damn family. He can go fuck himself.
CaseyL
Pence spoke at a Federalist Society bash, and said what Trump wanted to do was wrong.
Federalist Society judge Luttig spoke before the J6 Committee to say the GOP is a “clear and present danger” to America.
Considering that the Federalist Society has been one of the main architects of the modern GOP, I wonder what the hell is going on there.
SpaceUnit
@Wyatt Salamanca:
Exactly. Thank you.
Jeffro
Can we just get 30 seconds of testimony (each) out of Dan Quayle and Jimmy Carter, as to why the Bush Sr and Carter administrations, never once, considered this BS to be an option?
(or Al Gore for 60 seconds, on why he presided over/certified his own “loss” in 2000?)
It might be quite illuminating for the country.
It might just help reinforce the fact that never in 240+ years have we had a president* as corrupt as trumpov.
Honus
@Raven: Elliot Williams @elliotcwilliams
“Everyone commenting on the slow pace at which Luttig is speaking ought to
spend more time around federal appeals court judges.
I’m still waiting on one guy to finish a sentence he started in a case I argued in 2006”
as someone with some experience in this area, I agree with Williams.
pat
@SpaceUnit: so he would have been happy to watch democracy die if he was not immediately responsible.
He could have got in the car and been transported wherever and let democracy die when the electoral count was stopped and the session devolved into chaos and the electoral votes were sent back to the states and yada yada yada…. Instead, he stayed in that underground garage for 4 hours and went back to DO HIS CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY. .
Wombat Probability Cloud
@SpaceUnit: “He balked at the odds, not the principles.” should be one of the rotating tag lines here.
Jeffro
They were. Combination of laziness, thoroughly inculcated “both sides”, and failure of imagination.
I wonder what the non-voting half of this country would think if Jan 6th had ended in mob-led executions on the Capitol steps. Because we were pretty close to that.
Viva BrisVegas
If Pence was only after some good advice from a Republican VP, why was Cheney left off his list? Cheney has far better qualifications than Quayle.
Maybe he knew that Cheney (scumbag that he otherwise is) would have told Pence to tell Trump to go fuck himself. Which of course was the thing that a gutless Pence least wanted to do.
Wyatt Salamanca
@CaseyL:
After Trump actively encouraged his supporters to kill Pence, why couldn’t this fucking asshole tell the Federalist Society that Trump was morally and mentally unfit to serve as President? Pence is a useless, worthless scumbag.
Dangerman
@Bill Arnold: Any nonviolent period if Trump had been selected via shenanigans would have lasted hours. It would have flashed very quickly. Think LA riots but scaled up. Way up. It took a while for things to get going; it takes a while to get from WTF to Fuck You.
Then Martial Law and the attempt to put it down; then it’s the ol’ you and what Army thing.
geg6
@The Thin Black Duke:
Yeah, I keep thinking all the doomsayers who think we’ll meekly March into the concentration camps and into the ovens haven’t really met me or a lot of my gun-toting (well, just owning, not toting) liberals. I’m not giving up without a fight and don’t know anyone in my circle who would. Except some embarrassed recent never Trumpers. They’d probably knuckle under real quick.
Honus
BTW, where’s Steve in the ATL when we need him? Luttig is W&L ‘76
Jeffro
@Kay:
I think all of this is an excellent line of questioning to put to all of the trumpov admin officials, GQP congressmen/senators, and others who tried to make this happen, should we ever happen to get them in front of the J6 committee (or, heaven forfend, if the snooze media would do its job)
Ask them: “what was supposed to come next, after this unprecedented coup and subsequent guaranteed protests? How did you see it all playing out?”
Scout211
@Honus:
And Katie Phang, legal reporter, MSNBC:
https://mobile.twitter.com/@KatiePhang/status/1537487705751359490
SpaceUnit
@pat:
Yes, he could have gotten in the car and been transported wherever. And that’s exactly why he didn’t go.
Beyond the agents in his own security detail he didn’t trust the Secret Service. A lot of them were Trump Cultists. And Trump had just publicly called for him to be hanged.
I’m not saying that Mike Pence didn’t do his duty. He did when he ran out of other options. Go ahead, give him that medal.
But if he walked past me I’d spit on the ground.
zhena gogolia
@Jeffro: They showed video of Al Gore today.
Wyatt Salamanca
@pat:
Because he’s a spineless, gutless, thumb-sucking fucking coward.
Kudos to Lawrence O’Donnell for making this excellent point.
Steve in the ATL
@Honus: ¡hola!
pat
@SpaceUnit:
What other options would he have had?
SpaceUnit
@pat:
Finally!
None.
Honus
@Steve in the ATL: hola bro! In addition to W&L Luttig was also UVA Law ‘81 so I probably fixed him breakfast a few times when I was cooking brunch at the Virginian.
Sister Golden Bear
@The Thin Black Duke: Nope, definitely not. Nor us SF Libs.
I just can’t see California’s state government meekly submitting to post-coup efforts to set up a Christo-fascist state shipping people off to camps.
And even if they did, there’d be still a hella lot of pissed-off citizenry who wouldn’t. And CA is big, both geographically and population-wise. Even if Trump called out the military, there’s no way they could occupy and hold the LA and SF Bay areas, even with coupist police force as well as militias on their side. (Combined component strength of the entire U.S. Army is about 1 million, and SF Bay Area population is almost 8 times that; the Greater LA area is >18 times that; and both spread out over several thousand square miles each.)
I don’t know what would’ve happened, but it we’d definitely would’ve gone beyond the event-horizon.
Bill
@AnonPhenom:
No doubt the other Time Lord would have been Alito who has turned out to be way more extremist than even the three Trump nominees. Interesting that the supposed runner-up to Alito was Luttig, who it appears would have been a somewhat better choice. Of course, Alito himself was the second choice to Bush’s first but unsuccessful attempt to fill the seat: Harriett Miers
justawriter
Ranks right up there with “I did not have sex with that woman” on the old truthometer.
ian
@CaseyL:
The most basic conservative principal of all- I got mine, F*** you.
Federalist society doesn’t need Trump, they got what they wanted. The want a better empty vessel to keep the judiciary philosopher kings and high priests appointed.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@CaseyL:
The Federalist Society finally realized that the tiger they’re riding is about to try to eat them, is my speculation.
sab
Did anyone see CNN’s post hearing commentary? Chris Wallace was a mansplaining clueless disgrace. He had nothing to add, and cut off everyone else. He announced before the hearings he thought they didn’t matter. Open minded not.
CNN had Wallace, Toobin, Audrie Cornish formerly from NPR and another guy I can’t remember (they didn’t bother to identify him much.)
Wallace with Cornish was appalling. Cut her off every chance he got, although his comments were vapid and hers were quite perceptive. At one point as he cut her off he actually put his paw on her shoulder. So condescending. I hope she has a huge paycheck to put her kids through college, because professionally her move to CNN from NPR was not a step up.
germy shoemangler
@sab:
I love how Wallace was seen as the “reasonable” one at Fox, but when you take him out of that environment it becomes obvious he’s a dick. Another nepotism hire without value other than his name.
sab
@germy shoemangler: Yes.
Glen Tomkins
Eastman believes that the doings of the joint session, and thus all the schemes he proposed, are political questions, not legitimately reviewable by any court, so this statement probably is quite sincere.