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You are here: Home / Civil Rights / Miranda Weakened

Miranda Weakened

by John Cole|  June 23, 20222:39 pm| 250 Comments

This post is in: Civil Rights, Criminal Justice, Open Threads, Shitty Cops

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If a police officer fails to give a suspect his Miranda warnings, and the gov't uses the suspect's un-Mirandized statements against him in court, can the suspect sue the officer for violating his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination? In a 6-3 ruling, SCOTUS says no.

— SCOTUSblog (@SCOTUSblog) June 23, 2022

This is as good a time as any to remind each and everyone of you to NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE EVER. You literally have nothing to gain and everything to lose. It’s right there in the fucking Miranda warning- “Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.”

It doesn’t say “Anything you say can be used to prove your innocence.”

It doesn’t say “Innocent people never go to jail when they talk to cops”

It doesn’t say “You can prove to these guys you are innocent if you just keep talking and telling the truth.”

DO NOT TALK TO THE COPS EVER.

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Reader Interactions

250Comments

  1. 1.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 10:41 am

    Expand the Supreme Court. This one is fucking illegitimate

    Make the case.  And do it.

  2. 2.

    raven

    June 23, 2022 at 10:41 am

    That’s ok, now you can pack damn near everywhere! “Bear Arms” mean carrying outside the home.

  3. 3.

    JPL

    June 23, 2022 at 10:41 am

    That and striking down a century old law New York law that prohibits concealed carry unless you can show you need it.

  4. 4.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 10:43 am

    RE Bruen:  time for a day without a customer.  Or a shopper.

    Do you feel safer out in public now?  I do not.

  5. 5.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 10:44 am

    @raven:

    The lack of guns really hurt the 1/6 insurrectionists’ ability to carry out their plans.

  6. 6.

    Kofuu

    June 23, 2022 at 10:46 am

    A video from 10 years ago.  More true now…

    It’s a lecture by a law professor.  Sounds boring?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

  7. 7.

    Edmund Dantes

    June 23, 2022 at 10:46 am

    You actually do have to talk.

    “am I free to go?”

    and “I want a lawyer present”.

    otherwise silence can and has been used against people in scotus cases.

    “he never asked for a lawyer”

    ”he never asked to leave”

  8. 8.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 23, 2022 at 10:46 am

    Huh. You mean judges or whatever the hell inside baseball matter? Who knew?

  9. 9.

    Betty Cracker

    June 23, 2022 at 10:47 am

    The Supreme Court STRIKES DOWN a New York gun-control law that required people to show "proper cause" to get a license to carry a concealed handgun outside the home. The vote is 6-3. https://t.co/jA2Gl7lTiG

    — SCOTUSblog (@SCOTUSblog) June 23, 2022

  10. 10.

    debbie

    June 23, 2022 at 10:48 am

    Not sure how long I can continue following SCOTUSblog’s live feed. Too depressing.

  11. 11.

    debbie

    June 23, 2022 at 10:50 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    The governor has already announced NY isn’t powerless to respond to this ruling.

  12. 12.

    Benw

    June 23, 2022 at 10:50 am

    Supreme Court decides:

    Places guns are allowed: EVERYWHERE

    Places guns are not allowed: Supreme Court buildings

  13. 13.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 23, 2022 at 10:51 am

    @debbie:

    The governor has already announced NY isn’t powerless to respond to this ruling.

    Good for her. I like what I see of Hochul

  14. 14.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 10:53 am

    Not a moment of peace for these 12th century judges. They can’t remain cloistered in their homes and courthouses forever…

  15. 15.

    JPL

    June 23, 2022 at 10:57 am

    @debbie: I had to shut it down.   Is it fair to call it an activist court since they struck down a century old law?

  16. 16.

    Leto

    June 23, 2022 at 10:58 am

    Looking at the four rulings that came out today, so far, and three out of the four are shit. Protecting cops, enabling more guns everywhere, and enabling further minority rule. The ruling about the firing squad might buy the prisoner more time, idk. It’s fucking barbaric too.

    @Elizabelle: agreed.

  17. 17.

    JPL

    June 23, 2022 at 10:59 am

    FDA just outlawed JUUL e-cigs, so I’m sure the Supreme Court will quickly overturn that.   Some addictive drugs shouldn’t be regulated.    Can’t wait to see how they twist that.

  18. 18.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 10:59 am

    I am so angry about these rulings.

    I would suspect the majority of Americans are, too.

    Maybe we can use this in the midterms.

    And:  expand the Court.  We are not safe with these 18th century reactionaries on the Court in the 21st century.

  19. 19.

    debbie

    June 23, 2022 at 11:00 am

    @JPL:

    I’d call it a nutty court since it will be relying on some 17th century Puritan-type to rule on Roe v. Wade.

  20. 20.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    June 23, 2022 at 11:01 am

    @JPL:

    As I understand it, the first prong of analysis of any current legal challenge is what the conservative supermajority thinks of the law being challenged. After that, the analysis shifts to whether they can say that it wasn’t historically done that way during the period of the Norman Conquest up to the Articles of Confederation….

  21. 21.

    debbie

    June 23, 2022 at 11:02 am

    @Leto:

    enabling further minority rule

    Got any more info on this?

  22. 22.

    JPL

    June 23, 2022 at 11:03 am

    Tomorrow will the supremes weaken the EPA laws or call the EPA unconstitutional.

  23. 23.

    Amir Khalid

    June 23, 2022 at 11:04 am

    My sympathy about the ill-considered judgements coming from your Supreme Court today.

  24. 24.

    JPL

    June 23, 2022 at 11:05 am

    Stolen from some comment on the news: the Supreme Court six want to force babies to be born so they can babe used for target practice.

    From Thomas Levenson’s twitter feed

  25. 25.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 11:06 am

    I hope voting for Bernie Sanders in the primaries and then calling the primaries rigged when he lost fair and square was worth it for the left wing populists.

  26. 26.

    ian

    June 23, 2022 at 11:07 am

    @Baud: Hard to tell with your snark meter, it flies under the radar, but Marcy Wheeler has documented numerous cases of the 1/6 people with guns.

  27. 27.

    Geminid

    June 23, 2022 at 11:08 am

    @JPL: It’s a radical decision. In hisHeller opinion, Alito balanced an individual right to bear arms with the power of government for reasonable regulation of firearms, including their sale and use. Alito, who was no squish, specifically included longstanding regulations like the New York statute.

    The immediate effect of this law is to make New York a “shall issue” state when it comes to concealed carry permits. Virginia has been that way since Republicans modified the standard for concealed carry fifteen years ago, although requirements for training still remain. But the broader effect of this decision is that just about any restriction on gun rights will now be challenged, perhaps successfully.

  28. 28.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:08 am

    @Amir Khalid:  Dred Scott for the internet age.

    Deplorables.  On the Supreme Court.  A 6-3 majority.

  29. 29.

    Mai Naem mobile

    June 23, 2022 at 11:09 am

    Why is it that these mofos always apply the garbage laws from rural flyover shit red states to densely populated blue states but never the other way around. These piggy judges really think we will always live in some banana republic. So depressing.

  30. 30.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:09 am

    I am so glad for the J6 hearings today.  Because otherwise, it’s a day to stay off the news sites.

  31. 31.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 11:10 am

    @Elizabelle: BJ has “experts” who will tell you that the only thing you can do is flee the country.

  32. 32.

    Ivan X

    June 23, 2022 at 11:10 am

    Ha, I learned that (seriously) years ago from all the Law & Order I watched. And those are the good cops.

  33. 33.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 23, 2022 at 11:11 am

    What the esteemed Mr. Cole just said.  Especially if you’ve got more melanin than he or me.

  34. 34.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 23, 2022 at 11:12 am

    @Ivan X: Totally fictional cops.

  35. 35.

    azlib

    June 23, 2022 at 11:12 am

    @debbie:

    The Supreme Court has no police force. Enforcing this ruling against a hostile and economically powerful state will be interesting to watch.

  36. 36.

    Hungry Joe

    June 23, 2022 at 11:12 am

    @Kofuu: YES! That’s an incredibly helpful (and hugely entertaining)  video. I recommend it all the time.

    It’s fascinating, the way he shows how saying something innocuous to a police officer, when you’re perfectly innocent, can get you into serious trouble. Our great weakness: We all want to tell our story. Cops’ great advantages: They can lie to you. They have time. And they can twist seemingly harmless statements into damning evidence.

    Ask if you’re under arrest. Ask if you’re free to go. Tell them that you do not consent to a search. Inform them that you want an attorney. Inform them that you need to use the restroom. That’s it. Say NOTHING ELSE. Concentrate on pressing your lips together, if you have to.

    First, watch the video.

  37. 37.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:13 am

    @schrodingers_cat:  I am already planning on that, very honestly.  In a few years.  I’ve had it.  Better to watch this shit from abroad.

  38. 38.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 11:13 am

    @Mai Naem mobile: Agreed. It’s really time to split the country and line the blue border with nukes.

  39. 39.

    Geminid

    June 23, 2022 at 11:14 am

    @ian: There were certainly guns illegally carried by some of the insurrectionists. But it was a far different situation from the invasion of the Michigan Capitol the year before, where many of the invaders openly carried firearms including assault-type rifles.

  40. 40.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:14 am

    @azlib:  That occurs to me.  They’ve made the law.  Now let them enforce it.

  41. 41.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 11:15 am

    @Mai Naem mobile: Garbage Court.. Time for limiting their jurisdiction

  42. 42.

    JPL

    June 23, 2022 at 11:15 am

    @Geminid: We need to hold the Senate and expand the court before that happens.

  43. 43.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 11:15 am

    @Geminid:

    I thought Heller was Scalia.

  44. 44.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 11:16 am

    @Elizabelle: I don’t have that option. My decision to stay was made when I became a citizen 5 years ago.

  45. 45.

    Tony Jay

    June 23, 2022 at 11:17 am

    Looks like the radical Right are in a hurry to wreak as much havoc on the US as they can manage. I wonder what they see in the future that might diminish their ability to do damage?

  46. 46.

    Leto

    June 23, 2022 at 11:18 am

    @debbie: Supreme Court says GOP lawmakers can intervene to defend North Carolina voter ID law

    Steve Vladeck, CNN Supreme Court analyst and professor at the University of Texas School of Law, said the decision marked the second time this year that “the Justices have stretched existing procedural rules to allow Republican state officials to participate in litigation in which Democratic state officials had already been involved.”

    Earlier this term, the Supreme Court said that Kentucky’s Republican attorney general could intervene to defend an abortion law.

    Vladeck added: “These decisions will have especially significant ramifications for states with divided governments, in which it’s now that much more likely that there will be multiple parties purporting to speak on the state’s behalf.”

    If a Republican doesn’t like what a Dem is doing, even though they’re the duly elected official in that position? Well they can just bring their own suit in tandem! It’s just enabling further minority control.

  47. 47.

    Geminid

    June 23, 2022 at 11:18 am

    @Baud: Thank you for the correction! It was Scalia who wrote the Heller opinion, not Alito.

  48. 48.

    TheTruffle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:19 am

    @debbie: Good. How long before governors decide to ignore this stuff.

    And when does a backlash against these Neanderthals begin? This is ridiculous.

  49. 49.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 11:19 am

    White people would rather burn this country down than share it with the ones they consider the other. Voting Republican at any level says that’s what you want. The biggest demographic in this country has voted R since civil rights legislation passed.

  50. 50.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 11:20 am

    Three interesting things about the SCOTUS gun case (which I just read):

    First, and most important: the decision in the case is actually the opinion (concurrence) by Kavenaugh joined by Roberts. In it, they make clear that the case only invalidates 6 state’s laws that have wide open discretion to grant or not grant a carry license. They call these “may” laws as opposed to “shall” laws which 43 states have which set up very clear rules (without individual actor discretion) about when you will get a carry permit. For the record, this is how I thought the case would go, and it did.

    Second, Barrett says that when judging the constitutionality of a law, one cannot consider the world around or post the 14th amendment. In other words, we can only consider the thinking of white slave owning men. Thanks for sharing.

    Third, Alito is a motherfucking shitstain idiot hate troll who just had to point out in his dogdamned opinion that the NY gun laws did not stop the Buffalo shooting. Motherfuck him and John Wayne.

  51. 51.

    TheTruffle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:20 am

    @Elizabelle: I feel the same way. I think that the campaign ads should write themselves.

    @Leto: So a Dem could do the same per this logic? Am I right?

  52. 52.

    Leto

    June 23, 2022 at 11:21 am

    @Geminid:

    perhaps successfully.

    It’s not a perhaps, it’s a guarantee. Doesn’t matter how insane and idiotic it is, how much danger it puts the rest of us in, how harmful to society it will be (because remember, the majority said they don’t consider how the law will play out in real time, or the future effects) for society… nope, none of that. Just… it’s not even noon. FFS.

  53. 53.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:22 am

    @schrodingers_cat:   Actually you do have that option, as you know. As a US citizen, you are free to travel, and relocate abroad. Your choice.

  54. 54.

    HinTN

    June 23, 2022 at 11:23 am

    “John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it.”

    Probably apochraphal but…

  55. 55.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 11:23 am

    Yet another day where folks who didn’t take 2016 seriously have created a huge negative impact on millions of people— Jay Weixelbaum (@JayWeixelbaum) June 23, 2022

  56. 56.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 11:25 am

    @Elizabelle: Legally speaking yes. If I can’t fit in here or the country of my birth there is little chance I would else where. Besides I don’t want to. I have moved 7 times in my life so far. I am done moving

  57. 57.

    Leto

    June 23, 2022 at 11:25 am

    @TheTruffle: you would think that, right? But that’s not the current reality that we live in.

  58. 58.

    Josie

    June 23, 2022 at 11:25 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I agree. LBJ knew it and said it would happen. It happened. Racism is the basis for everything they have done since then. I don’t know how you get rid of something so ingrained.

  59. 59.

    debbie

    June 23, 2022 at 11:26 am

    @Leto:

    Jesus. Thanks.

  60. 60.

    Geminid

    June 23, 2022 at 11:27 am

    @Leto: We’ll see. As a commenter noted above, the concurrence attempts to limit the ruling’s scope. But the majority has stepped onto a very slippery slope.

  61. 61.

    debbie

    June 23, 2022 at 11:28 am

    @Immanentize:

    But then they wouldn’t let Breyer bring up all the gun violence!

  62. 62.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 23, 2022 at 11:28 am

    @Elizabelle: As a citizen, I am also free to stay here and tell the fascists to fuck off because it’s my country and they can’t have it that easily.

  63. 63.

    O. Felix Culpa

    June 23, 2022 at 11:30 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I’m nobody’s idea of an “expert,” but I am preparing for that option if necessary. I don’t intend to follow the example of the German Jews who had ample warning, but waited until it was too late. Their various reasons for delay were logical and fatal. I understand that not everyone can or wants to opt for Plan B, but I wouldn’t discourage people from planning for it, just in case.

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Yes, of course you are free to do that. I have done and continue to do the same. I also reserve the right to avoid being rounded up if the fascists take control, which–heaven forfend–is not a non-zero possibility.

  64. 64.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 11:30 am

    We can all stop paying taxes for this crap. And hound every GOP rep and judge outside of their home or workplace.

  65. 65.

    The Moar You Know

    June 23, 2022 at 11:30 am

    Looks like the radical Right are in a hurry to wreak as much havoc on the US as they can manage. I wonder what they see in the future that might diminish their ability to do damage?

    @Tony Jay: they are freaked out at the notion of a “demographic time bomb” (an idea that originated with the left, and has been exploited by Fox et al to terrorize their older viewers) that says white voters will soon be a minority.

    Never mind that the earliest date on that happening is 2040, and that American Hispanics are flipping to the GOP in ever-increasing numbers with each election.

    They have plenty of time.

  66. 66.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 11:31 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yes agreed. I made that choice when I decide to become a citizen. I considered and pondered all the pros and cons of moving to Canada after the Orange One was elected. I even figured out what I would take, how I would pack my car etc. I applied the day before he took the oath of office.

    It will be 5 years this 4th since I took the oath.

  67. 67.

    BC in Illinois

    June 23, 2022 at 11:31 am

    A public service announcement from the “National Lawyers Guild, Detroit & MI.”

    Short, practical advice on what to do when questioned by police.

    [ “Short” = four words ]

  68. 68.

    HinTN

    June 23, 2022 at 11:32 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: A fucking men!

    Also, @Immanentize:, simmer down young man. We don’t need you to blow a gasket. We need you working! Yes, I agree

    Alito is a motherfucking shitstain idiot hate troll

  69. 69.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 11:33 am

    The SCOTUS gun decision just gave Republican senators reasons not to vote for the very small but important progress included in the proposed gun bill in Congress.

  70. 70.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:33 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:   Excellent.  I agree.  We are all doing that.

    But, at some point, you just want to be somewhere that has a clearer eyed view of what can happen when you let the fascists in.

  71. 71.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 11:35 am

    @HinTN: I wonder what gasket I would be blowing if my son had died and I was loosed from all constraints by grief and solitude.

    But that didn’t happen — yay!

  72. 72.

    trollhattan

    June 23, 2022 at 11:35 am

    @Benw: Also, too, no uncomfortable signage in front of justice’s houses.

  73. 73.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:36 am

    @schrodingers_cat:   We are very fortunate to have you as a new citizen.  And active in your local politics.  Yay you.  Yay us.

    That said, it’s cool to be an expat, too.

    FWIW, I think in the long run, “our” side will prevail.  But life is short.

  74. 74.

    jimmy higggins

    June 23, 2022 at 11:36 am

    John, this delightful 1:10 Public Service Announcement makes your point very clearly!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWEpW6KOZDs

  75. 75.

    raven

    June 23, 2022 at 11:36 am

    @Josie: fuck LBJ

  76. 76.

    PaulWartenberg

    June 23, 2022 at 11:36 am

    My parents gave me two Talks:

    the first Talk when I was 13 was about sex and girls (aka “get a girl pregnant and you are out of the house.”)

    the second Talk when I was 16 and just gotten my driver’s license, was if I was out late at night with friends, and something stupid happens, and the cops take me, my parents told me “Paul, remember that we love you no matter what, so if you end up in jail first thing you need to do is call us and we will come get you, and the second thing you need to do is KEEP YOUR DAMN MOUTH SHUT.”

    Cops are now going to grab anybody off the street they think is guilty, throw them into an interrogation room, bully the shit out of them until they confess to shit they did not do, and send more innocent people to jail all in the name of expediency and closing cases so they don’t have to do any heavy lifting and, you know, actually solve fucking cases.

    I swear to God, everyone needs to rewatch The Wire again and watch how cops trick the shit out of clueless gang bangers. You think you’re smarter than a street kid? Fuck you, the cops will trick even college professors into confessing to shit they didn’t do.

  77. 77.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    June 23, 2022 at 11:37 am

    @The Moar You Know: 

    and that American Hispanics are flipping to the GOP in ever-increasing numbers with each election.

    Isn’t this a tad overstated?

    They have plenty of time.

    Not if they keep doing crazy, unpopular shit that wrecks everything. People will eventually become fed up

  78. 78.

    O. Felix Culpa

    June 23, 2022 at 11:37 am

    @Immanentize:

    I join you in that hosanna!

  79. 79.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 11:37 am

    @Elizabelle: If you are white you are an expat otherwise you are just an unwanted not pale enough immigrant other. I could go back to India of course. But the reasons I left haven’t changed if anything India has regressed under the current proto-fascist regime.

    Besides I don’t want to. I am an American. This is my country. And I have decided to fight for it in whatever way I can.

  80. 80.

    MisterForkbeard

    June 23, 2022 at 11:37 am

    @Immanentize: Motherfuck them all.

    SUPER WEIRD how these scotus cases just magically perfectly meet whatever political desires Republicans currently have, go against democrats, and overturn precedent.

    I hate to suggest it, but I really do this the conservative judges are going to inspire someone to go after them. They can only push ridiculously partisan and unpopular solutions for so long and crow about it before someone snaps. And this time, they won’t have second thoughts and call 911 on themselves.

  81. 81.

    PaulWartenberg

    June 23, 2022 at 11:38 am

    @Immanentize: I thought they just voted for it.

  82. 82.

    trollhattan

    June 23, 2022 at 11:38 am

    Compare and contrast versus the previous administration’s FDA.

    June 23, 2022 at 10:36 am EDT By Taegan Goddard

    The FDA ordered Juul “to stop selling e-cigarettes on the U.S. market, a profoundly damaging blow to a once-popular company whose brand was blamed for the teenage vaping crisis,” the New York Times reports.

  83. 83.

    TheTruffle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:39 am

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): It looks like people are already getting fed up. See the gun debate in Texas

    @schrodingers_cat: Do you regret your decision? Be honest.

  84. 84.

    topclimber

    June 23, 2022 at 11:39 am

    IANAL but the report quoted above says a defendant cannot sue a police officer who divulges info provided without pre-Miranda warning. What does it do as far as whether the evidence itself is tainted, and so should not be used against the defendant?

    If that hasn’t changed, then the negative impact would seem to be much less.

  85. 85.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 11:41 am

    @Immanentize:

    I think we’ve already cleared the filibuster. The GOP is irrelevant.

  86. 86.

    West of the Rockies

    June 23, 2022 at 11:41 am

    So I can open-carry as I parade back and forth in front of Kavanaugh’s house* yelling about my various issues?

    No?…  that’s… curious.

     

    *A thing I would never actually do or think about doing.   Duh.

  87. 87.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 11:41 am

    @TheTruffle:

    Do you regret your decision? Be honest.

    No. There is no place I’d rather be.

    This is my karmabhoomi.

  88. 88.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 11:42 am

    @topclimber:

    That’s still in place for now. I can see the GOP 6 ditching Miranda at some point, however.

  89. 89.

    UncleEbeneezer

    June 23, 2022 at 11:42 am

    @Mai Naem mobile: (Red) States Rights!!!

  90. 90.

    Josie

    June 23, 2022 at 11:42 am

    @raven: ​ Of course. I forgot that part.​
     ETA: How are you feeling?

  91. 91.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    June 23, 2022 at 11:43 am

    @MisterForkbeard:

    That’s already begun to happen

  92. 92.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 23, 2022 at 11:44 am

    @topclimber: A right that, if violated, does not result in a cause of action against the violator is less of a right than one that does.  And something is either a right or it isn’t.  This is a step toward overruling Miranda – the right has never like Miranda.

  93. 93.

    Leto

    June 23, 2022 at 11:45 am

    @topclimber: So let’s see: 1) they’re already going to use the tainted evidence to send your ass to jail for… decades. That shit is already happening now. 2) SC also previously ruled last month that “evidence of innocence” is not enough. 3) who has the money, or who’s case is sexy enough, to afford the attorney/attorneys for a long appeal case? 4) what’s the remedy for a cop who breaks the rules?

    I mean, it’s just one more layer of accountability/remedy stripped away. Cop breaks the law, but the cop is again protected. That’s the negative impact.

  94. 94.

    Tony Jay

    June 23, 2022 at 11:46 am

    @The Moar You Know:

    Well there’s that, but there’s also the possibility of incriminating evidence coming out of the Jan 6 hearings that will change the calculus around the Midterms and the solidity of the SC majority.

    Crisis points can go either way, can’t they?

  95. 95.

    TheTruffle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:46 am

    @schrodingers_cat: I’m glad people like you have faith. I’m on the same page as Leonard Pitts here.

    https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/guest-commentary/os-op-leonard-pitts-unity-myth-20210222-kr6qk5oxz5dejjybv6267o6ape-story.html

  96. 96.

    Leto

    June 23, 2022 at 11:47 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: again, another one of those fringe right ideas that’s becoming more of a reality.

  97. 97.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 23, 2022 at 11:48 am

    @Tony Jay: Doomers gotta doom.

  98. 98.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 11:49 am

    @TheTruffle: It is neither faith nor hope that motivate me. This is what I decided in Jan 2017. I am following through with my decision. It is the right thing to do

    I take the long view. We as a country have been here before. Democracy and the rule of law is not a given. We have to fight for it. It is our turn to do so now.

  99. 99.

    lowtechcyclist

    June 23, 2022 at 11:49 am

    @MisterForkbeard:

    SUPER WEIRD how these scotus cases just magically perfectly meet whatever political desires Republicans currently have, go against democrats, and overturn precedent.

    Yeah, their decisions at this point are the equivalent of running through the streets yelling “Rule Of 5, Rule of 5” as they overturn our system.  There’s no rhyme or reason to what they’re doing besides “this is what we want to do, so we’ll do it.”

  100. 100.

    TheTruffle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:51 am

    @Leto: Well, as mentioned upthread, New York is an economically powerful state with a Dem governor and there is precedent for this. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

  101. 101.

    TheTruffle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:53 am

    @schrodingers_cat: What is your main motivator? Also…where are you from originally?

  102. 102.

    oatler

    June 23, 2022 at 11:54 am

    The “Dragnet 1968” plot element has been weakened. Think of all the cop shows from that era when officers agonized over killing a “civilian” (no paid vacations as a reward for murder).

  103. 103.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:55 am

    @Tony Jay:   That is my hope, Tony.  It is looking like a good bet, actually.

  104. 104.

    Percysowner

    June 23, 2022 at 11:55 am

    @Betty Cracker: The states can regulate what a woman does with her OWN body. The states can’t regulate dangerous instruments of murder. I knew there was a reason that in the leaked brief Alito talked about abortion not being mentioned in the Constitution. It was so they could make this decision.

  105. 105.

    JPL

    June 23, 2022 at 11:56 am

    The court is going to decide whether or not to hear a case involving the Louisiana State Court that overturned the states redistricting.    It will decide whether or not to allow states by themself draw lines without any other oversight.

    They are going to allow Jim Crow laws aren’t they

    they are supposed to rule by 5.   If they overthrow the opinion until the hear the case, the republicans can draw lines anyway they want.

  106. 106.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 11:56 am

    I hate the headlines about “gun owners’ rights” and “gun rights.”  What about the rest of us?

  107. 107.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 11:56 am

    @MisterForkbeard: They will have to live in the dystopia they create and can only hole up for so long…

  108. 108.

    Edmund Dantes

    June 23, 2022 at 11:57 am

    @BC in Illinois: again. This bad advice to just shut the fuck up. It’s important but scotus has rules you have to assert your rights or how is Johnny law expected to read your mind.

    Am I free to go?

     

    I want a lawyer (p.s. can’t be a question or ambiguous. Must be a declarative statement)

     

    otherwise. Shut the fuck up.

  109. 109.

    coin operated

    June 23, 2022 at 11:57 am

    @Edmund Dantes:

    You actually do have to talk.

    “am I free to go?”

    and “I want a lawyer present”.

    otherwise silence can and has been used against people in scotus cases.

    “he never asked for a lawyer”

    ”he never asked to leave”

    Just re-uping this comment.  We’ve all seen the video with the law professor say “Don’t talk to the cops” and the LEO detective saying “Everything he said is right”

    Yeah…10 years ago.  That law professor, in a more recent video promoting his new book, says his previous video is no longer completely valid.  What Dantes posted is the correct response.

    Slight edit for clarity…

  110. 110.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    June 23, 2022 at 11:57 am

    @Elizabelle: The majority of Americans won’t hear about these rulings

  111. 111.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 23, 2022 at 11:58 am

    @Hungry Joe: Press your lips together.  AND BLOW!

  112. 112.

    MisterForkbeard

    June 23, 2022 at 11:59 am

    @lowtechcyclist: Yep. The one consistent legal principle is that “Republicans can do what they want”.

    The legal reasonings are pretty laughable in each of these cases. They overturn decades of precedent and in some cases directly contradict the judges own past statements. But they’re gambling that:

    1) They have their seats and they get to decide what’s legal
    2) They’re not accountable to anybody so fuck you
    3) Because of 1 and 2, the legal world will shift to make their arguments valid and respectable

    They’re angry that #3 isn’t happening fast enough and we’re not grateful for their slavish devotion to the republican cult.

  113. 113.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 12:01 pm

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:  Actually, I think the majority will.  These rulings are far-reaching, and have immediate implications for safety.  Particularly for people of color.

    I think the word will get out.

  114. 114.

    Edmund Dantes

    June 23, 2022 at 12:02 pm

    @JPL: they allowed the poll tax in Florida where the government admitted they didn’t even know the fees the felons actually had to pay other than they were owed as requirement for getting back their voting rights.

  115. 115.

    MisterForkbeard

    June 23, 2022 at 12:02 pm

    @ksmiami: I don’t think that’s really true.

    Each of the judges are rich, conservative elites. The get a huge amount of extra privileges and protections by virtue of their positions. They’re rich enough to insulate themselves from the consequences of their own actions. There’s going to be a lot more gun violence, but a vanishingly small chance it affects them in any way. The family of the supreme court is going to get very different police protections and will absolutely have their miranda rights respected. If anyone in the family needs an abortion they can easily get one in a blue state, will always have the best medical care, etc.

    They’re setting up a horrible hellscape where everyone ELSE is oppressed and they’re pretty happy about that.

  116. 116.

    MisterForkbeard

    June 23, 2022 at 12:05 pm

    @Edmund Dantes: Right? “It’s totally okay to require that felons pay all their fees back, and also to simultaneously not tell them what they have to pay so they can’t pay the fees” is exactly equivalent to “felons don’t have voting rights even if the state says they do, if the republican administration doesn’t want them to vote”

  117. 117.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    June 23, 2022 at 12:06 pm

    @MisterForkbeard:

    That doesn’t mean they will never face any consequences

  118. 118.

    Cameron

    June 23, 2022 at 12:06 pm

    @TheTruffle: An even more depressing view from somewhat further to the left.  And don’t we all need more depression in our lives?

    https://scheerpost.com/2022/06/22/alienated-america-mass-shootings-up-1000/

  119. 119.

    Renie

    June 23, 2022 at 12:07 pm

    As a New Yorker this disgusts me.  Conservatives talk about states’ rights until there is a state law they don’t like and the Sup Ct strikes it down.   I would love to see NY Gov Hochul not follow their ruling.  To any legal beagles here, what can they do then?

  120. 120.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 12:07 pm

    @TheTruffle: I am originally from India but I have lived in the US longer than I have in India.

    My guiding principles are:

    Pursuit of truth and a strong sense of right and wrong, an open mind.

    I find people like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden who walk the walk and don’t just talk the talk inspiring.

  121. 121.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 12:09 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    That’s much more noble than my guiding principles.

  122. 122.

    O. Felix Culpa

    June 23, 2022 at 12:10 pm

    @Baud:

    Obligatory: Which are?

  123. 123.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:11 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: As a card carrying member of the .05%, I disagree with this take. And as shit gets worse and worse in this country, they will not be able to have protection 24/7. It’s the same rule with Covid, or terrorism; the defended need to be right/safe 100% of the time, while the errant virus or man with a gun only needs to get through once. Nothing is 100% impregnable. Ask Theodosus

  124. 124.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 12:11 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    TBH, now I’m a little embarrassed to reveal them.

  125. 125.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 12:12 pm

    @Baud:  I know when you write it out, it sounds corny. I was trying to be honest.

    Husband kitteh says that Tom Petty’s

    I won’t back down is my anthem.

  126. 126.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:12 pm

    @Renie: SC has no enforcement mechanism. She can immediately ignore it.

  127. 127.

    FelonyGovt

    June 23, 2022 at 12:13 pm

    @West of the Rockies: Hell, you can’t even write with chalk outside Susan Collins’s house.

  128. 128.

    rikyrah

    June 23, 2022 at 12:13 pm

    Weakened?

    How about gutted.

  129. 129.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 12:13 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I didn’t mean to come off as mocking you. I think you’re a fighter.

  130. 130.

    JPL

    June 23, 2022 at 12:13 pm

    @Edmund Dantes:  CBS News video on what the judges could decide if they hear the case.   link

    If they allow this, then red states wouldn’t even bother have the one or two democratic representatives.

  131. 131.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:14 pm

    @FelonyGovt: Next time they should use uranium…

  132. 132.

    Geminid

    June 23, 2022 at 12:14 pm

    @Renie: I’m no legal beagle, but it seems to me that Hochul can’t make a court convict someone for carrying a concealed weapon who qualifies under the new standard. I guess she and the state assembly can slow walk a new licensing scheme.

  133. 133.

    rikyrah

    June 23, 2022 at 12:15 pm

    DO NOT TALK TO THE COPS EVER.

     

    No habla engles

  134. 134.

    sab

    June 23, 2022 at 12:15 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Well put.

  135. 135.

    MisterForkbeard

    June 23, 2022 at 12:15 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Oh, that’s true.

    I’m sure they’ll face something minor. Maybe one of their friends gets shot. Or maybe one of their daughters needs to fly to another state or country to get an abortion. But for them, the consequences of their actions will be minor inconveniences.

    Conservatives have even been working hard to stop social consequences. Elite opinion now says you’re not allowed to express disapproval, not serve them at your restaurant, tell them what you think of them or protest them. That’s called “cancelling” and if these extremely powerful and unaccountable conservatives are the victims.

    So there’s going to be some minor inconvenience to them. And maybe someone will snap and do something violent. But largely: No, no consequences for them. And they know it.

  136. 136.

    frosty

    June 23, 2022 at 12:16 pm

    @ksmiami: Fuck off. Read up on the India Partition in 1947 before you spew any more of your bloodthirsty drivel. You are an ass.

  137. 137.

    wenchacha

    June 23, 2022 at 12:17 pm

    @Mai Naem mobile: This. This is really pissing me off this morning.

  138. 138.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:18 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: I think we need to blockade the Supreme Court with a million people. And shut off their power and water during August.

  139. 139.

    Cameron

    June 23, 2022 at 12:18 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: One of the really horrible things about this is that the original change restoring the vote was made by Florida residents themselves, and it wasn’t close (IIRC, something like 60% voted for it).  But the legislature didn’t like the result, so here we are.

  140. 140.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:20 pm

    @frosty: I have read about the partition. And this country will be unliveable if the Cons continue to dismantle it. Better for the Blue States to align with Canada and Mexico if things get as crazy as it looks.

  141. 141.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 12:20 pm

    @frosty: They are either a FBI plant to monitor to Balloon Juice by posting nonsensical bloodthirsty drivel or just an ass.

  142. 142.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 12:21 pm

    @Baud:

    There is oft a slip
    between cup and lip.

    Those chicks are not yet fully hatched. I hope you are right, but….

  143. 143.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:23 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Except what are your answers? – moar voting; when the GOP won’t recognize Democratic wins? When the SC eliminates the agencies entrusted with the health etc of Americans, when right wing goons are patrolling the streets shooting poc under the color of “law.”  When women get arrested for miscarriages?

    Non-violence only gets you so far and the unsung heroes of the Civil Rights movement protected the organizers etc with guns.

  144. 144.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    June 23, 2022 at 12:26 pm

    @MisterForkbeard:

    You seem very sure that they’ll face little consequence. I’m not. They’re placing targets on their backs, essentially

  145. 145.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    June 23, 2022 at 12:27 pm

    @Geminid:

    I guess she and the state assembly can slow walk a new licensing scheme.

    Or just flat out ignore the ruling and not pass any new licensing scheme at all

  146. 146.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 12:28 pm

    @sab: Thanks.

     

    @Baud: No offense taken. Thanks for calling me a fighter. Not everyone likes a fighter. The ideal Indian  woman is supposed to never speak up and follow her elders unquestioningly. I fit in here much better than I ever did back in India.

  147. 147.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:28 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): The SC doesn’t have any units to command…

  148. 148.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 12:29 pm

    @ksmiami:

    You realize we won the last vote, right?  Maybe we’ll lose the next few and the GOP will close off that route, and then things maybe get hairy.  But I’ve been hearing people on the internet talking about violence as a more effective means to success since there was an Internet.  Not only have they never proven their claims, the most immediate impact of such rhetoric is to discourage people from voting, thus helping to create the world we see today.

  149. 149.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 12:29 pm

    @frosty: Speaking of the Partition, I am really loving Ms. Marvel. Yes they are intimately connected.

  150. 150.

    Joy in FL

    June 23, 2022 at 12:29 pm

    @BC in Illinois: That is good advice for a lot of things, and I love the video. Thanks for posting its link.

  151. 151.

    Ruckus

    June 23, 2022 at 12:30 pm

    @Immanentize:

    I’ve sat here with my fingers on the keyboard for a long time, trying to write something.

    I want to write something, but I’m pretty much speechless other than a lot of swearing. We have 9 people, 6 of whom sit on what little brains they have and speak using the waste orifice. Now having lived a few decades I know that there are actually a lot of people who do this but we have a rather large segment of our population who have seemingly no idea how a human body is supposed to work or how human brains often don’t and I’d say primarily because their brains are totally dysfunctional. And they talk out their asses. I understand that we will have differences of opinion but this is a difference of reality, it’s like they don’t live in the same world as the rest of us, that reality is a waste of time and their limited ability to observe and total lack of the ability for rational thought is a good thing. I’d be stunned except I’ve lived for what seems some days a reasonably long time and have seen that a shitty portion of the human race have shitty values with many other members of same and are at a value way below the negative value they add to the universe because they are such shitty examples of humanity. I’d be ashamed to be human myself except that won’t change anything, it won’t make them any more human, any smarter, any better able to pull their heads out of each others asses. I guess my big question is, what made them stuff their heads up each others asses in the first place, how did they ever decide that was normal?

  152. 152.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:32 pm

    @Baud: If the Republicans put people in state election boards that won’t recognize Democratic votes/wins, then the only mechanism becomes extra-judicial means. Yes, we won the last election, but it came within a whisker of defeat. If elections in this country are as existential as they seem, we are already lost.

  153. 153.

    smedley the uncertain

    June 23, 2022 at 12:32 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: And your welcome.  My parents were immigrants.

  154. 154.

    Another Scott

    June 23, 2022 at 12:33 pm

    With the caveats that I haven’t read the decisions or much commentary on them…

    The SCOTUS 6 are doing exactly what we thought they would do.

    Local, State, and Federal laws need to be changed to rein in the police.  It’s long-past time to do so.

    The SCOTUS needs to be expanded, and/or reined in to limit Judicial Review.  The Framers never intended for a handful of unelected people with lifetime appointments to write the laws of the land (and that’s what they’re doing).  Fight for 15!

    Yes, we need to use these decisions, and all the others, to turn out our voters in November.

    Grr…,
    Scott.

  155. 155.

    frosty

    June 23, 2022 at 12:33 pm

    @ksmiami:  There are no blue states. There are no red states. There are cities and rural areas. What you propose means my neighbors will evict me at gunpoint. At best.

  156. 156.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 12:34 pm

    @ksmiami:

    Maybe we end up in a violent state because the GOP destroys democracy.  Jumping the gun in anticipation of that future, however, is a recipe for defeat.

  157. 157.

    Ruckus

    June 23, 2022 at 12:34 pm

    @BC in Illinois:

    Good advice.

    Well delivered, precise, to the point, legally sound advice.

    So actually, GREAT advice.

  158. 158.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:36 pm

    @Ruckus: You can’t sustain a democracy with this many people in a completely different plane of reality. And other than forcing them to actually read and watch non-rt wing bs, there’s no way to turn them. I say let global warming do its thing, but I don’t want innocent people and animals to be victims. I really do think a national divorce is best. The country is ungovernable.

  159. 159.

    MisterDancer

    June 23, 2022 at 12:36 pm

    @ksmiami: Better for the Blue States to align with Canada and Mexico if things get as crazy as it looks.

    Well, us Southern Negroes can go live with Da Massa again, hunh? Leave us to hoe the farms here, again, this time with climate change burning our dark skin off?

    I mean, what the hell do you think the Compromise of 1877 was? It was the North deciding that protecting Southern Blacks wasn’t worth the trouble, anymore.

    Just as you’re proposing here. Northerns are “powerless” to do anything about White Supremacy in the South, so let’s just ignore that whole assed region, it’s lawless and ungovernable…

    …you know, unlike us “civilized” Northerns , who just apply Redlining and other more subtle ways to keep Black folx in check.

    Treating the Northern US as some kind of racial utopia is BULLSHIT. “Better” is 100% relative, here!

    So stop it.

  160. 160.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:37 pm

    @Baud: Waiting until they line us up against a wall isn’t smart either…

  161. 161.

    Betty Cracker

    June 23, 2022 at 12:37 pm

    @frosty: Exactly right. I share your annoyance with these simplistic proposals. Even if the consensus for a national divorce existed (it doesn’t), there’s not a practical way to implement it without widespread and catastrophic violence. It may come to that! But that’s something we should try to prevent rather than encourage.

  162. 162.

    Joy in FL

    June 23, 2022 at 12:38 pm

    @Edmund Dantes: Thanks for this clarity.

    Years ago when I first heard about what people should say or not say to cops, I thought to myself: “I’ll never have to worry about that. I don’t do stuff that would get me in trouble….” In the past several years, I’ve become aware that I’m wise to have a clear, specific set of responses like the ones you give. And after saying those, I shut the fuck up.

  163. 163.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 12:39 pm

    @ksmiami:

    So then join a militia and go buy a ton of weapons to protect yourself.  They let you do that now.

  164. 164.

    Raoul Paste

    June 23, 2022 at 12:40 pm

    @Baud: Well said

  165. 165.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:41 pm

    @MisterDancer: I’m (well moving) from the South… but as I see it, as the Ukrainians are doing to Russia, we have to make the destruction of the US democracy painful to the GOP (and the companies that enable them) or they will continue. And that will require a new paradigm of thinking like punishing the Red States for their anti-democratic laws etc. Start moving military bases etc. And we need to offer help to those who are fighting in those states and or wanting to leave.

  166. 166.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 12:43 pm

    @Baud: I’d rather have us keep the national government/military as  – guns are weak sauce compared to the US tanks and drones.

  167. 167.

    Paul in KY

    June 23, 2022 at 12:43 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Am glad you are here too. You make our nation a more diverse place, and God knows we need more diversity!!

  168. 168.

    Raven

    June 23, 2022 at 12:44 pm

    @Josie: Provisionally better. The nerve block had two intentions 1) diagnostic to see how much of a problem the femoral nerve is, 2) therapeutic to see if cortisone would help. It seems that my pain has subsided when I walk and stand but the weakness remains. That is all good because we’re looking at some spinal issues that are causing the weakness and maybe they can be addressed. Thanks for axing!

  169. 169.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 12:45 pm

    @ksmiami:

    Well, there’s only one way to keep those things.  Direct your anger to those who tell our potential voters that both parties are the same and that voting is useless.

  170. 170.

    PaulWartenberg

    June 23, 2022 at 12:45 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    logical reason to expand the Supreme Court, got one. There are currently 11 judicial districts for the federal court system, but only 9 justices to oversee them. As a result, we should increase the number of justices to 11, adding two more during Biden’s tenure. That will only make it 6 conservative – 5 liberal justices, but with any luck Clarence Thomas will get arrested for involvement in the Jan. 6th insurrection and we can fill that seat with Barack Obama, and flip it 6 lib – 5 con. /grin

  171. 171.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 12:47 pm

    There is a pie filter for dealing with the Yosemite Sams among us, folks.

  172. 172.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 12:47 pm

    @PaulWartenberg:   13 sounds like a lucky number to me.

  173. 173.

    Ruckus

    June 23, 2022 at 12:48 pm

    @Geminid:

    They didn’t step onto that slope, they jumped, with great joy and stupidity, and it will change the face of this country in only negative ways. They are slipping and sliding down that slop, laughing and enjoying the ride because they refuse to look down at the bottom, the result of them being stupid gits, the result of that jumping, the result of them thinking this is the 12th century rather than the 21st, the result of them going through life with their heads up each other’s asses. And liking it.

  174. 174.

    Almost Retired

    June 23, 2022 at 12:49 pm

    Another sensible California gun law struck down by Trump appointees.   States rights for me but not for thee.

  175. 175.

    Paul in KY

    June 23, 2022 at 12:50 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: I wonder about that myself sometimes…

  176. 176.

    MisterDancer

    June 23, 2022 at 12:52 pm

    @ksmiami: And we need to offer help to those who are fighting in those states and or wanting to leave.

    And until you got called on the carpet, you didn’t mention a word of this. You’ve been so busy calling for attacks that you forgot real people live in these areas, and they read these words, too!

    We (and by “we” I mean all of us, from the Government to each citizen who gives a damn) START with supporting people in these areas. We ensure, to the best of our abilities, that no on gets left behind. We make that support open, and forefront, in our work.

    If you wanna do different, like you have been advocating up until this comment, that’s on you. But the fact that you’re getting all this pushback might be a hint that you’re on a ledge that you might wanna climb the hell back off of.

  177. 177.

    debbie

    June 23, 2022 at 12:52 pm

    Thread:

    We now have a Supreme Court that is moving every aspect of our society in a radical direction, blowing up any reasonable reading of the Constitution to fit its radical ideological and partisan views. It spits on the actions of legislatures and preempts the other branches. 1— Norman Ornstein (@NormOrnstein) June 23, 2022

  178. 178.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 12:52 pm

    @Ruckus: I think there are many answers to those last questions, but the most animating one seems to me to be a sense not of self worth, but of self value? I know these are almost the same concept but worth requires a complete 360 evaluation of good qualities and bad. Whereas self-valuing people only rely on their internal voices to put a sticker price on themselves. Which is always way higher than what an open market would bear.

    The care-less on the Court only think of their value which includes their importance and an odd confidence that they are galaxy brains. And, their value must not be questioned! They are the hope diamond, not some cubic zirconium knock off! Unique, better than, well you and everyone else. So, every questioning of their value (as they see it) is a grievous insult which allows them to do whatever they perceive to be the slight seven times greater. They are pre-Hammurabic in their need and willingness to redress slights.

    And too many self-valued are in power right now. It makes me, as one of truly mixed worth, feel rather violent myself —  which is all to be expected, I guess

  179. 179.

    MisterDancer

    June 23, 2022 at 12:53 pm

    @Elizabelle: There is a pie filter for dealing with the Yosemite Sams among us, folks.

    I ain’t writing just for him. He’s not the first to say this crap, and I want my opinion on the record, today.

  180. 180.

    Edmund Dantes

    June 23, 2022 at 12:54 pm

    @JPL: oh I already know. I’ve been talking about Reynolds v Sims being in the chopping block for a while when people only talked about the “big” cases from scotus. And how Reynolds needed to be talked in same breath as Roe, Brown, etc.

  181. 181.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 12:57 pm

    @Almost Retired:

    States rights for me but not for thee.

    Prezactly.

    And a gun’s rights, uber alles.

  182. 182.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 12:57 pm

    @Edmund Dantes:

    Yeah, I wonder if they’ll go that far.  Over the long term, getting rid of Reynolds would also make it easier to isolate conservatives if political winds change.  Roberts probably thinks in those terms, but the other 5 may have a shorter time horizon.

  183. 183.

    hueyplong

    June 23, 2022 at 12:57 pm

    @Immanentize: “Motherfuck him and John Wayne.”

    Simple and plain.

  184. 184.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 12:57 pm

    @MisterDancer:   Yes.  And you said it well.

  185. 185.

    FelonyGovt

    June 23, 2022 at 12:58 pm

    Seems to me that one of the first things I learned about in law school was stare decisis. This SCOTUS is shitting on venerable precedents just because, well, they can, and because they don’t fit with their fanatical, tight-assed, bigoted world views. It’s horrifying. How can anyone possibly have any confidence in the law?

  186. 186.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 12:58 pm

    @FelonyGovt:

    Fewer and fewer people do.

  187. 187.

    Edmund Dantes

    June 23, 2022 at 12:59 pm

    @Ruckus: it’s bad advice. You have to assert your right to attorney and to leave. Otherwise cops are allowed to believe you acquiesced.

    so it’s great advice if you want to sit there and be interrogated for 12, 24 hours etc  but it’s horrible advice otherwise.

    it’s scotus precedent.

    as the example from the case, the defendant said “maybe I need a lawyer” and cops ignored that as asserting right to attorney. And scotus signed off.

    so its

     

    am I feee to go

    I want a lawyer

    and

    shut the fuck up otherwise.

  188. 188.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 12:59 pm

    @debbie:   That is an excellent thread by Norm Ornstein.  He’s in the “clear and present danger” mode, too.  Has been, for years now.

    Can anyone put up a thread reader of the Ornstein thread?  It’s marvelous.  I iz not on twitter.

  189. 189.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 1:01 pm

    @hueyplong: Thank you for your understanding.

  190. 190.

    Layer8Problem

    June 23, 2022 at 1:02 pm

    @Elizabelle:  Our work doesn’t end and I have grandkids.

  191. 191.

    Geminid

    June 23, 2022 at 1:02 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I think that in this circumstance a federal court could order the licencing agency to issue a permit to someone who meets the other requirements. Maybe by an order of mandimnus with a side of furious fritatas. Perhaps a legal beagle will howl a more precise answer.

    But anyway we’ll know soon enough how Hochul and company are going to deal with this ruling.

  192. 192.

    James E Powell

    June 23, 2022 at 1:03 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    That is the central truth of American politics. The political press works very hard all the time to make sure no one ever says it.

  193. 193.

    Edmund Dantes

    June 23, 2022 at 1:04 pm

    @Baud: the dancing with the “state legislatures” doctrine leads me to believe Alito, Thomas, Kavanaugh, Gorsuch (and I’m not sure on Barret but probably is) are already playing footsie with gutting Reynolds if it gets them what they want for minority rule.

    Roberts wants it too but would like to pull a gut the law but leave the shell of course.

  194. 194.

    Josie

    June 23, 2022 at 1:04 pm

    @Raven: You’re welcome. Glad to know that you are getting some good news at long last. I understand how frustrating long term debility can be, especially for a person who is used to being very active.

  195. 195.

    Rob

    June 23, 2022 at 1:05 pm

    What a wonderful country I live in

  196. 196.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 1:05 pm

    The one gun control the GOP supports is felon disenfranchisement because the justice system works against minorities and the GOP doesn’t want them to have guns.  It’ll be interesting to see what legal hoops the GOP 6 on the court go through to keep those laws in place.

  197. 197.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    June 23, 2022 at 1:09 pm

    @Baud:

    We live in “interesting times” for sure. Ugh

  198. 198.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 1:09 pm

    @Baud: This will also be the effect of including more juvenile records in background checks. Juvenile court is even more racially tilted than adult convictions. Fewer black people will be allowed to have guns, but probably no fewer whites.

  199. 199.

    E.

    June 23, 2022 at 1:09 pm

    People keep saying we are headed for civil war but I do not understand how you have a war if only one side is armed. I’m too frail and non-violent to fight in one certainly.

  200. 200.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    June 23, 2022 at 1:10 pm

    @Raven:

    Glad to see some good news for you finally on that front

  201. 201.

    E.

    June 23, 2022 at 1:12 pm

    @FelonyGovt: Maybe we can trick them into overruling Marbury v Madison and removing all their authority.

  202. 202.

    James E Powell

    June 23, 2022 at 1:13 pm

    @ksmiami:

    If the Republicans put people in state election boards that won’t recognize Democratic votes/wins, then the only mechanism becomes extra-judicial means.

    Attendez, Enjolras, we aren’t ready for the barricades just yet. First task is to win the elections. As many as we can by as much as we can. That’s not totally within our control, but it is something we know how to do & have the means of doing.

  203. 203.

    Ruckus

    June 23, 2022 at 1:14 pm

    @ksmiami:

    “You can’t sustain a democracy with this many people in a completely different plane of reality.”

    Absolutely true.

    So how do you change the minds of people that believe they want to go back to a completely different time because they think they are going to be treated better, when they actually weren’t? The difference was they had someone to treat worse, rather than they got treated better. And how do you go back in time, a very fast reverse gear? Will that be out any day now, from their great and thoughtful minds?

    The world moves forward but humans often don’t. We have the same war over and over and over and… because people try to hold on to what they know, what they believe, even if all the evidence is that they are wrong. We are at a pivot point in history. There are billions of people living now and taking up space, using up resources, and still hurting others because they won’t change, when change is the only way they can stay alive. We have to change the story, change the process, change the rules and that goes against short term history, which is what most people think is real because that’s all they see. They like the world they know or at least think they know. A world of religion, of hearty souls, of conserving the old ways, but our world is no longer that world, there are too many of us, there have been too many wars, too much refusal to learn anything new, too much hate for hate’s sake, too much refusal to see the actual world around them. Russia is a prime example of that, vlad thinks that one man can decide that he owns other humans, owns all the land, is the ruler king, that he is that man. That way only causes the death and destruction that it has always caused but now it is far, far more destructive because there are more of us and because we have invented better weapons. We have to find a better way than to allow the vlad’s of the world (here we call them the republican party) to decide that everyone they don’t like or agree with must die or at least suffer – because.

  204. 204.

    Josie

    June 23, 2022 at 1:15 pm

    @MisterDancer: Thank you.

  205. 205.

    JPL

    June 23, 2022 at 1:19 pm

    @Immanentize: Justice officials searched Jeffrey Clarks’ home.

    That’s good news right!

  206. 206.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 1:19 pm

    @Ruckus:Maybe a push to global democracy – less nationalism and more pressure to be aligned with humanistic goals. Unfortunately, from my eye, the future by design will be less populated. How we get there is the scary part.

  207. 207.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 1:20 pm

    @Immanentize:

    Real Americans would much rather be killed by a white guy with a gun than a black guy with a gun.

     

    @JPL:

  208. 208.

    Betty

    June 23, 2022 at 1:25 pm

    @Benw: In front of Supreme Court houses. The guy accused of attempted murder walked by, his unloaded gun in a suitcase, and he turned himself in.

  209. 209.

    TheTruffle

    June 23, 2022 at 1:25 pm

    @Ruckus: I’ve tried to educate people and change their minds. They would post some silliness from Breitbart or wherever and I’d politely include a link saying it wasn’t true. Politifact, for example.

    Someone posted that Bill Gates and Anthony Fauci were college roommates. I posted a link explaining that wasn’t true. These things go in one ear and out the other.

    So I can understand why some people are running out of patience.

    I keep hearing these loonies are a minority. I have yet to see proof of it.

  210. 210.

    Raven

    June 23, 2022 at 1:25 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): yea, I realized the question may have been about Covid!

  211. 211.

    Citizen Alan

    June 23, 2022 at 1:27 pm

    @ksmiami:

    1.  We are approaching the demographic point at which it will be virtually mpossible  For a Democrat to win the White House or for democrats to control the senate. We are a decade or 2 at most from being completely shut out of the legitimate political process. I don’t know what we can do after we reach that point other than violence.. Which by the way I don’t think will succeed because the nazis have all the guns.  If it weren’t for wellbutrin, Klonopin, and occasionally marijuana, I would probably have already taken a dirt nap.
  212. 212.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 1:27 pm

    @TheTruffle:

    What kind of proof are you looking for?

  213. 213.

    Calouste

    June 23, 2022 at 1:29 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Or follow the Mexico scheme:

    You can apply for a license, and the state will issue one, but you have to apply in person at an office that is only open between 8:17 and 8:42 on even numbered Mondays in months that have a Friday the 13th. And you have to bring three forms of identification, because New York doesn’t want to hand out guns to “illegal immigrants” like the GOP does.

    (We all know that the GOP doesn’t do consistency, but the whole ‘all “illegal immigrants” (i.e. brown people) are criminals’, but let’s oppose all checks to prevent these “criminals” to get their hands on guns, is a pretty glaring one even by their standards).

  214. 214.

    ian

    June 23, 2022 at 1:29 pm

    @ksmiami:

     only mechanism becomes extra-judicial means

    the only mechanism you see.  There exist others, should you use your imagination to think of them rather than bloodthirsty civil war fantasies.

  215. 215.

    A Good Woman

    June 23, 2022 at 1:30 pm

    @Immanentize:

    On that 2nd point, Barrett and the 14th amendment. Are you inferring that she considers that amendment as somehow illicit. My vocabulary left me when I read that comment. If she totally discounts that amendment doesn’t that pull the rug out of norms that rely on it?

  216. 216.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 1:31 pm

    @JPL: very good news he is a bad man.

    When you say Justice Officials, I read “FBI”

  217. 217.

    Elizabelle

    June 23, 2022 at 1:32 pm

    Me likey:  from the NY Times, breaking news, WRT J6 hearings:

    Federal investigators descended on the home of Jeffrey Clark, a former Justice Department official, on Wednesday in connection with the department’s sprawling inquiry into efforts to overturn the 2020 election, according to people familiar with the matter.
    It remained unclear exactly what the investigators may have been looking for, but Mr. Clark was central to President Donald J. Trump’s unsuccessful effort in late 2020 to strong-arm the nation’s top prosecutors into supporting his claims of election fraud.
    The law enforcement action at Mr. Clark’s home in suburban Virginia came just one day before the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol was poised to hold a hearing examining Mr. Trump’s efforts to pressure the Justice Department after his election defeat.

    The hearing was expected to explore Mr. Clark’s role in helping Mr. Trump bend the department to his will and ultimately help in a bid to persuade officials in several key swing states to change the outcome of their election results.

  218. 218.

    The Thin Black Duke

    June 23, 2022 at 1:32 pm

    @Baud: If it comes to that, it’ll be easy to get guns. Masters of War don’t care who they sell to.

  219. 219.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 1:32 pm

    @Immanentize:

     

    @Elizabelle:

     

    New thread up.

  220. 220.

    Immanentize

    June 23, 2022 at 1:33 pm

    @A Good Woman: The 14th is not quite “invalid” but when discerning constitutional original intent, the civil war and it’s aftermath are irrelevant (she says quite plainly)

  221. 221.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 1:34 pm

    @Immanentize:

    If she were consistent, she would have to overturn a lot of pro corporate precedent from the post civil war era.

  222. 222.

    Jinchi

    June 23, 2022 at 1:39 pm

    @Betty Cracker: The Supreme Court STRIKES DOWN a New York gun-control law

    I’m getting ever more disgusted at the right wing, whose only reaction to mass slaughter has gone from “do nothing at all” to “make guns even easier for deranged people to carry”.

    Republicans really are a death cult.​​

  223. 223.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 23, 2022 at 1:40 pm

    @TheTruffle: The 2020 election.

  224. 224.

    Jesse

    June 23, 2022 at 1:43 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: as someone who lives abroad — strictly for fanily reasons — I can’t get on board with the “leave the US” train. The grass is NOT greener. There’s nonsense in Europe deep & wide which you’d never tolerate as an American. (Unless you adopt double standards. Like, “sure, their concept of separation of church & state is clearly bad. But hey, good beer!”)

  225. 225.

    Jinchi

    June 23, 2022 at 1:45 pm

    @Calouste: ​
     

    You can apply for a license, and the state will issue one, but you have to apply in person at an office that is only open between 8:17 and 8:42 on even numbered Mondays

    Sounds like the Republicans preferred policy on voting, so I’m sure they’ll be fine with it.

  226. 226.

    Jinchi

    June 23, 2022 at 1:49 pm

    @Jesse: I can’t get on board with the “leave the US” train. The grass is NOT greener.

    Agreed. There’s no where to run to. We have to solve these problems where we live.

  227. 227.

    randy khan

    June 23, 2022 at 1:49 pm

    It’s remarkable how many white people don’t understand this.  I had a conversation with someone within the last week where he asked me, more or less, what was wrong with the statement that it’s not a problem for police to search your phone or social media, or whatever if you haven’t done anything wrong.

  228. 228.

    Baud

    June 23, 2022 at 1:51 pm

    @Jinchi:

    There’s no alternative to carrying the one ring to Mt. Doom to destroy it.

  229. 229.

    Martin

    June 23, 2022 at 1:56 pm

    Take the lesson from the Uvalde PD: even the cops won’t talk to the cops.

  230. 230.

    dave319

    June 23, 2022 at 1:59 pm

    @Elizabelle: Listening, Uncle Joe? If you got a plan for dealing with all this shit, now would be a real good time to let us have a look at it.

  231. 231.

    Ruckus

    June 23, 2022 at 2:05 pm

    @ksmiami:

    I’m going to call bullshit on you. We outnumber them, we out think them. This is the time to change. Why do you think conservatives want to keep guns? The answer is it’s the only possible way they might stay in any level of power. Their ideals are old and shitty. They do not reflect the majority of the country. Look at the red states and compare them to the blue states. The bluest state, CA, has the largest population, has a GDP bigger than most nations, better schools than most, and life is better. The other blue states are in far better shape than the red states as well. The old way, the conservative way, is bullshit and it doesn’t work in a modern world. The world changes, always. Conservatives with money do not want change. At least they say they don’t but take away all their conveniences of modern life and they would scream holly hell. They want all the stuff but they also want power to keep others from getting that stuff so that they are better. They don’t measure progress using freedom or liberty, to them freedom is about money. If you have some you are free. If you don’t you are a schlub. Equality is not a word in their world, or at least if it is it’s a swear word. They don’t want equality of any kind because that makes them like everyone else and they have to be better in some way. If everyone has the same level of freedom and it isn’t measured in some bullshit way, how do they get ahead? The simple answer is they don’t. And they can’t stand that. Their problem is that if the world was actually liberal, they’d be like everyone else, nothing special at all. President Obama showed that their concept of being better is bullshit. Racism is bullshit. We all know it, conservatives enjoy it. Wealth does not make you a better person, in fact it seems it makes you far worse. And equality under the law makes them the same as everyone else, nothing special, nothing better, makes them just like everyone else. Conservatives fucking hate equality because it makes them no better than the next person. And they enjoy being worse.

  232. 232.

    JPL

    June 23, 2022 at 2:10 pm

    @Immanentize: Does she think that women should have to right to vote?

  233. 233.

    zhena gogolia

    June 23, 2022 at 2:12 pm

    @MisterDancer: thank you

  234. 234.

    Ruckus

    June 23, 2022 at 2:17 pm

    @Immanentize:

    It does make one want to be violent. But that is a human reaction that the modern world is at least attempting to change. Conservatives don’t actually want that change because if you take that away, they’ve got nothing, zip, nada, crapola, shit, thin air. The leading conservatives are chickenshits but they have an army of armed idiots ready to spring into action at a president’s request, to protect their stupidity. We have a far better way to move forward, it’s called equality. But conservatives are not going to give up the only thing they’ve got, bullshit, easily. Their way is the old way, the gen pop doing the fighting and the upper crust stealing everything they can carry. (you did see the recordings of who carried what out of the WH when they left didn’t you?)

  235. 235.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 23, 2022 at 2:21 pm

    @Jesse: Indeed. As if a country without any flaw exists, As if moving to another country is easy.

  236. 236.

    Ruckus

    June 23, 2022 at 2:23 pm

    @Edmund Dantes:

    OK, I skipped a step or two, or the word otherwise.

    I’ll do better.

    1. Am I free to go?
    2. I want a lawyer.
    3. Shut the fuck up otherwise.

    I will add the heat and burn those three short sentences into my feeble old addled brain.

  237. 237.

    Cameron

    June 23, 2022 at 2:28 pm

    @Ruckus: Just remember – #1 and 2 you say to the police, not #3.

  238. 238.

    Ruckus

    June 23, 2022 at 2:30 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    The only country with out human flaws is one without humans.

    I’ve never seen one of those and I’d bet living there would be rather difficult. Even Antartica has people living there.

  239. 239.

    Ruckus

    June 23, 2022 at 2:31 pm

    @Cameron:

    Hey, I admitted I can be dense, but I’m not that dense. I think.

  240. 240.

    different-church-lady

    June 23, 2022 at 2:32 pm

    @trollhattan: Whenever I think of e-cigarettes, I am reminded of my belief that no matter how bad things get, somewhere someone is working diligently on a way to make them even worse.

  241. 241.

    Ruckus

    June 23, 2022 at 2:33 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    There is always someone trying to make a buck in the worst way possible. Always.

  242. 242.

    Ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 2:56 pm

    @Ruckus: the entire Conservative platform is hollow and hopeless- and that is why we need to alter the paradigm- work with businesses and countries that align with enlightened liberal values. Change the terms of the fight.

  243. 243.

    Edmund Dantes

    June 23, 2022 at 3:13 pm

    @Martin: they have it explicitly written in their union contracts how all investigations of an officer is supposed to go, lawyers present, time limits, cooling off periods, etc.

  244. 244.

    Paul in KY

    June 23, 2022 at 3:14 pm

    @Baud: That was the only way. If only Elrond had pushed Isildur in when he was admiring it, so much suffering would have been avoided…

  245. 245.

    Edmund Dantes

    June 23, 2022 at 3:19 pm

    @Cameron: I mean you can say the third, but there will be consequences.

    hell just saying the first two will often piss cops off. They hate running into people that know their rights. Watch enough first amendment audits (some whackos for sure) and you’ll see cops hate anything that challenges them.

    another thing to recognize is all the talk and banter cops due. It’s all psychological manipulation. You see the same stuff with salesmen etc.

    gwt people comfortable (hey we’re just having a conversation, just being polite) get people saying “yes” (get you used to answering them so you’ll answer more) etc.

    There’s a lot of science behind what the cops are doing. Just like with the informercial people.

  246. 246.

    ksmiami

    June 23, 2022 at 3:59 pm

    test

  247. 247.

    MisterForkbeard

    June 23, 2022 at 4:52 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I did clarify that if they keep it up, someone might take a shot at them.

    But consequences anywhere near what they force everyone else to go through? No.

  248. 248.

    Lepercorn

    June 23, 2022 at 6:22 pm

    @Kofuu: Yeah he’s a a law professor at Reagent University. That’s Pat Robertsons university. And even he says don’t ever talk to the police.

  249. 249.

    TheTruffle

    June 23, 2022 at 10:45 pm

    @Baud: Well, voting patterns for one. Media responses for another. I always wondered why Senate races for Dems didn’t go better. Maybe it was that “defund the police” bullshit.

    I do remember reading a Republican flipped a Dem district in an election recently with low turnout—but a Dem flipped a GOP seat earlier.

    I know bellyaching about national divorce is dumb, but I think we are headed there anyway. When a state’s GOP puts secession in their platform, then you know unity’s out the window.

  250. 250.

    TheTruffle

    June 23, 2022 at 10:46 pm

    @Baud: Well, voting patterns for one. Media responses for another. I always wondered why Senate races for Dems didn’t go better. Maybe it was that “defund the police” bullshit.

    I do remember reading a Republican flipped a Dem district in an election recently with low turnout—but a Dem flipped a GOP seat earlier.

    I know bellyaching about national divorce is dumb, but I think we are headed there anyway. When a state’s GOP puts secession in their platform, then you know unity’s out the window.

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