Wise words from commenter Sally last night.
We shouldn’t have to organise. We shouldn’t have to donate untold billions to GOTV or the messaging. Registration and voting should be easy and universal. Alas we don’t live in that world, or that country. I have lived in countries where voting is so easy, and so inexpensive. As Zelenskyy says when you surrender ground, winning is back is much harder than holding it. The multiplier is, I believe, about 3:1, probably more in reality. We have lost a lot of ground because people didn’t vote. Now we have to combat gerrymandering, suppression on so many levels – closed, and moved voting stations, ID’s that are hard to access, limited machines, long lines, work day voting, etc.. R legislators that kneecap incoming D governors, judges, police bosses, school boards, on and on. All working against democracy because they can’t win unless they cheat. So that’s what they do.
Now we have an enormous uphill battle to claw back their massive gains. They put in the decades of cheating and lying to gain this ground, and now they have it, they are not going to relinquish it. We have decades of work ahead. I can’t go with the “we have to motivate people to vote”. We live in a complex, interconnected society where your well being depends on everything else. You want air and water that doesn’t contain toxins. You want schools to educate your kids or kids around you so you can live in a functional society (ie people who, at minimum, can read and write and work machines, save your life in a hospital), roads, safe food, air travel, defence, libraries, safety standards, on and on and on. Vote.
Voting is a hard fought for right. It was hard fought for because the powerful did not want to dilute their power. It is also an obligation. I am obligated to participate in the democracy in which I live. I am not a free loader. If you don’t vote, you are letting other people determine your life. If voting didn’t matter, didn’t change things, they wouldn’t be always trying to stop us. The motivation to vote is that you are obliged to help determine the management of the society in which you live. In a system such as the US, if you have to vote for the lesser of two evils, then that’s what you do. If you have to be bribed, against the overwhelming poisons of the other side, try living in a place where you can’t vote.
Voting emancipates us. Voting (not guns) frees us from tyranny. Voting should be easy, with universal adult franchise, and every citizen’s obligation.
Vote.
My mom used to say that it’s going to get worse before it gets better. If we don’t vote, we will surely lose the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing after that.
Voting is only a privilege if you fucking have privilege. For everyone else, it’s about survival.
So now we have a choice, in case it wasn’t already clear. Do we rise to the occasion and fight like hell? Like the people of Ukraine that we so admire? I surely hope so.
It’s time for us to get out of our comfort zones. And I’m not just talking about the women.
Sure Lurkalot
In my life, way back when civics classes were obligatory, passing tests on both the US and your state’s constitutions were required to graduate high school. For me, those classes did impart the responsibility of citizens to participate via voting. So, Sally’s message about how it’s an obligation to vote rings true to me.
debbie
Are we really sure any of us really have voting privilege anymore?
debbie
@Sure Lurkalot:
At my school, it was required to take and pass in eighth grade.
Baud
People are talking about how this is a direct result of the 2016 election, which is true of course. But it’s also a result of our inability to take the Senate when we took the House in 2018. Had we done so, Barrett would not have been confirmed.
CCL
WaterGirl – I noticed a comment in a previous thread – from Another Scott, maybe? – that talked about donating to state government races – Arizona and Maine, I think, and those two especially being close to flipping blue. Is anything in the works for a DougJ type thermometer to support those races?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@CCL: I don’t know about Maine, but Michigan and Arizona have some very close numbers in their state legislatures, and of course the executive positions– gov, AG, SoS– that are so important in elections. Michigan also has a referendum to add abortion rights to their state constitution.
Does anyone have an eye on the NE-1 race to replace Fortenberry (sp?). It seems like that’s really under the radar. I was clicking around yesterday but could find any polling. The vote is Tuesday. Nebraska, but a district that I believe Biden carried?
Omnes Omnibus
Let’s not refer to voting as a privilege. Voting is a right. It is right that we need to continue to fight for and it is a right that is too often denied, but let’s not be party to its diminishment by referring to it as a privilige.
Another Scott
@CCL: Yeah, it was me pointing to BobbyBigWheel.
That’s a thermometer for 4 in Michigan and 2 in Maine.
Another jackal pointed us to the Sister District Project which is concentrating on state legislatures in 7 states: WI, MI, PA, NC, GA, AZ and NV.
Lots of resources here for “giving smart”.
Cheers,
Scott.
VFX Lurker
California lets you register to vote when you renew your driver’s license. California has same-day voter registration. California allows 16 and 17 year-olds who will be old enough to vote in the next election to pre-register to vote. California mailed every voter a mail-in ballot and gives every voter an option to vote in-person if they prefer. California also counts every mail-in ballot postmarked by Election Day and received seven days later. We also count ballots for 30 days after each election.
We’re still counting ballots for our June 7th mid-term primary election, and the turnout has reached 32.7% as of today.
More Californians are registered to vote than ever before, and the total number of ballots cast by June 7th beats past primaries in 2012 and 2014. Still, I wish we had higher voter turnout here in California. Our primaries matter so much more these days because of the “top two” primaries we voted for in June 2010.
Omnes Omnibus
@VFX Lurker: WI has same day voter registration.
Early Riser
This organization assists independent abortion care providers and get rated 100 by Charity Navigator: https://abortioncarenetwork.org/
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: That was kind of my point, which apparently I didn’t make very clearly.
The arrogance of “I didn’t get everything I wanted so I am not going to vote this time around” can only be taken by people with privilege. Trans people can’t afford to do that. People of color can’t afford to do that. Women can’t afford to do that.
Voting is certainly not a privilege, or even just a right. As I tried to say, up top…
Anyone not of the protected classes, aka while male America with money can’t afford to take that position. It’s a matter of survival and the right to self-determination.
zhena gogolia
Thanks for front paging!
Anyone who’s spent time in countries where voting is meaningless has to respond to these words. It’s not meaningless here — YET.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: Voting is your right and your duty as a citizen in a democracy.
SpaceUnit
I’d like to offer thanks to those knowledgable commenters who have been suggesting strategies and pointing out the critical races where we can pitch in and hopefully make a difference.
That is far more helpful than taking turns lecturing one another about the importance of voting. Pretty sure every one here votes hard and often. Just saying.
different-church-lady
@Baud:
Hell, we could have even taken back the seat McConnell stole from Obama.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: I said this in a reply to Another Scott in the thread below:
If we could rekindle the idea the voting itself, that universal sufferage, is a revolutionary act, that could make a difference. For most of human history, the majority of people have no voice at all in the way they have been governed. We grabbed that right. That is revolutionary stuff.
zhena gogolia
Mrs. Betty Bowers hits the nail on the head:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE-bCLyO_6Y
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: It’s more that some people in the comments used the word privilege as well. That’s starts to enter pet peeve territory for me.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
I would like us to get out of the habit of treating voting as a commercial transaction. People aren’t necessarily going to immediately get a direct benefit just because they vote for Dems. It’s wrong to suggest otherwise.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Voting is a right. Not voting is a privilege.
Princess
Lots of trolls out there telling people voting is stupid and the Dems are the worst, and the usual idiots are out there amplifying them on Twitter.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Agreed.
Gin & Tonic
This can be a generations-long battle. I’ve mentioned before that it was four generations between my grandfather being sent to the Gulag and my nephew ( and his cohort) enjoying the political freedom that russians are now attempting to take away from them.
Im afraid that 21st Century Americans don’t have the willpower for that kind of time horizon.
ETA should have said white Americans.
zhena gogolia
@Baud: As I’ve said before here, at about age 10 I noticed that Republicans in power weren’t doing anything for people, and that you needed to keep voting for Democrats, because even if some particular Democrat wasn’t everything you desired, in general life got better when Democrats were in charge. So it’s not about any single candidate, but about keeping that good trend going. If the presidential candidates I voted for who lost (McGovern, Carter II, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry, and H. Clinton) had won, we would be in a VASTLY DIFFERENT UNIVERSE RIGHT NOW. That’s leaving out all the down-ticket races.
Omnes Omnibus
You have said this before. I disagree.
The Thin Black Duke
I’m fucking pissed.
I just unfollowed a woman my Beloved and I know on FB.
She put up a post where someone made the the obscene analogy of comparing the shooter who killed all those school kids to Republicans and the Uvalde cops who stood by and did nothing to Democrats.
I should mention that she hated Hillary but thinks of herself as a Democrat.
This is the bullshit some idiots on “our” side are amplifying.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Correct. More importantly, perhaps, a strong Democratic Party forces the GOP to be more moderate. A world in which Democrats are held responsible for GOP actions doesn’t.
Baud
@The Thin Black Duke:
I’m glad you stood up to her in that way.
Starfish
@The Thin Black Duke: I saw that meme too. I think it is frustration.
Today, I saw one of our US Reps at the PRIDE parade. He is a military veteran in one of the more competitive districts, and a military veteran is running against him. He participated in the first impeachment of Trump, and they are trying their best, but there really is not much that they can do right now.
It is so frustrating because rights are just going to be blown away left and right by this court.
HumboldtBlue
@The Thin Black Duke:
That’s been a very popular tweet over the past two days as well. Today’s most popular wrong thing are two young women remonstrating at a rally that Dems have had the ability to codify Roe numerous times and failed to do so.
lowtechcyclist
@Another Scott: Thanks! That was exactly the sort of thing I was asking about, a day or two ago.
The Thin Black Duke
@Baud: I didn’t know what else to do. Other than writing “bullshit” before I left, I didn’t want to get into an useless argument with someone who already made up her mind
It’s depressing. So many people buy into the Green Lantern bullshit, that there’s some magic word Biden can say which will magically fix everything overnight.
So many people buy into the performative politics bullshit.
I’m sorry, but for some reason this gutted me.
Feathers
What I am finding deeply annoying is all the people shitting on the “We need to vote” messaging with a reply of “But I did vote and Roe got overturned!”
To which I say, No shit, Sherlock. You voted, but did enough people vote our way? Obviously not.
Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.)
I’m going to steal this whole post and put it up everywhere I can–with attribution, of course.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think it’s Chuck Todd himself who lets out a loud chuckle, and even Mrs Greenspan has an “are you fucking kidding me?” look on her face
Yutsano
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Any word on how many martinis she had had before going on set?
Splitting Image
@HumboldtBlue:
There is nothing the Democrats have done, could have done, or might do to codify Roe that the Republicans will not regard as a provisional right that exists only until they have the power to take it away.
SpaceUnit
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
And yet they’ll have her on again.
schrodingers_cat
Populist left love their slogans
M4A,
Defund the Police
Now it is codify Roe.
different-church-lady
@schrodingers_cat: I was told Occupy changed everything.
zhena gogolia
@The Thin Black Duke: that is very upsetting
Betty Cracker
I agree with this for the most part, though I’m still not sure about this line:
Eolirin in the morning thread provided some context to help me understand what that means (or his interpretation of it, anyway), i.e., politics as a form of consumerism is a big part of why we’re in this mess, and we need to instill a sense of civic obligation and responsibility. I definitely agree with that.
But whiny-ass people on Twitter aside, do we really want to say it’s not important to motivate people to vote? I can’t agree with that.
Maybe a belt-and-suspenders approach would work, i.e., impressing the “civic duty” concept on people in whatever ways we can (civics classes in school, etc.) and offering something that might smack of a crass transaction too, e.g., we need to elect X number of Democratic senators in November to accomplish Y. Be specific about the transaction.
HumboldtBlue
@Splitting Image:
Which means every right we currently enjoy.
schrodingers_cat
@different-church-lady: Slogans get headlines that is all. Voting consistently gets the change you want.
Feathers
@schrodingers_cat: Umm. The Voting Rights Act was codified AF. That meant nothing to this court.
So much of this poutrage is about “Why this is all my Mom’s fault.”
The Thin Black Duke
Marginalized people understand that to move forward in this society there’s always going to be an extra step to take, one more thing to do, the goal posts are going to be moved, and knowing there’s more losses than wins. It’s a forever game that people with privilege don’t want to play.
different-church-lady
@Betty Cracker: sure it’s important to provide motivation — in fact, motivation is not the right word: it’s important to provide inspiration as well. Whether democrats do that well, or enough, is up for reasonable debate.
But thing I was arguing about last night had more to do with the idea that a transactional view of voting was an excuse for unnamed young people to tune out and abandon voting. I’m not even sure those aren’t mythical creatures or straw people we’re arguing over. And I’m willing to be a huge number of those who don’t vote won’t vote no matter what anyone says — not when cynicism is the coin of their realm.
And there is no one-size-motivates-all solution, no matter how many on-line experts scream about it. Like I said last night, everyone thinks there’s “one weird trick” that’s gonna solve this. There isn’t.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: We shouldn’t have to motivate people to vote. In the real world though, we must. We need to find a way to do this that is not, as Baud says, entirely transactional. I proposed one idea above, but I know that’s not the magic bullet because there is no one magic bullet. That doesn’t mean that we don’t need to solve this problem.
different-church-lady
@schrodingers_cat:
But what if all you really want is headlines?
Yutsano
OT: remember all those “mystery explosions” in Russia? What if I told you there may have been a cause*?
*I have no evidence that this team is responsible for the random infrastructure fails within Russia. It would be nice to pull Adam from the near-death allergy attack for confirmation.
schrodingers_cat
@The Thin Black Duke: Pointing out the sheer selfishness of the privileged leftie brigade is a surefire way of losing friends and making enemies on this forum.
schrodingers_cat
@different-church-lady: Yes I think that’s all they want. To be in the news, to be on camera. So they can protect their ideological purity and and whine endlessly about Democrats. While spouting platitudes about the revolution.
Baud
@The Thin Black Duke:
It’s because you realize the MAGA right aren’t the only ones influenced by destructive propaganda.
HumboldtBlue
Here’s a Rhode Island state candidate that could use some support.
Baud
@Feathers:
I went to a protest once. Nothing vhan8, so all protests are bunk.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I have been on this anti-populist (from the left) soapbox for a long time now. Its not a message that has gone down well on this forum.
dnfree
@The Thin Black Duke: I think this kind of thing hits hard when it’s someone you care about.
The Thin Black Duke
@schrodingers_cat: I think the BJ jackals here recognize the difference between the people in the trenches who put the work in as opposed to the poseurs who think slapping a bumper sticker on their car and posting it on FB is a revolutionary act. Thankfully, Bernie is going to be gone soon and Nina Turner won’t pick up traction because she’s a scary black lady who pisses people off.
Starfish
YES, you really do have to motivate your voters. Your candidates have to meet the moment. “Here is a tuna sandwich. VOTE for it” is not a big motivator. Part of what defeated Hillary Clinton was the misogyny of the press, but part of it was the sense of inevitability.
Joe Biden is going to run again. He was great as the eulogizer in chief for a deadly pandemic, but we need a fighter right now. That is not Joe. “Well, he is all we are giving you” from the national Democratic Party will show how unserious they are about the seriousness of the moment. We need several good options here who have different messages that resonate in different ways. I know that historically EVERYONE GETS A SECOND TERM, but the place we are at is dangerous.
As I mentioned earlier. For my primary ballot, there were very few actual choices, and the choices that existed did not seem meaningful.
The Democratic Party is right now burning all their donor lists by sending emails to everyone saying:
A BAD NEWS EVENT HAPPENED TODAY.
HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO DONATE TO CANDIDATE X?
$5, $15, $25, etc.
We are going to grow numb to those emails. They are impersonal. They are untargeted. We need to be doing better and not making excuses for not doing the various jobs correctly.
The Truffle
Would it really be decades?
J R in WV
Voting is neither a right, nor a privilege! It is an obligation to the nation and the people.
When some people do not vote through laziness or stupidity, it means the decision isn’t truly democratic. I love the Australian requirement that all qualified adults must vote. They have great turnout. Now that voting can be by mail, there is no excuse to miss an election.
raven
What kind of world is it where slapping a sorry ass motherfucker upside the head is an “attack”! Sheeeettt.
Rudy Giuliani was attacked by a worker at a ShopRite on Staten Island on Sunday while campaigning for his son, leaving the 78-year-old former New York City mayor shaken, witnesses and law-enforcement sources said.
“I was stunned,” eyewitness Rita Rugova-Johnson told The Post after the attack at the supermarket on Veterans Road.
“I was shoulder-to-shoulder with Rudy inside ShopRite,” Rugova-Johnson said. “We’re talking, and all of a sudden an employee came out of nowhere and open-handedly slapped him in the back and said, ‘Hey, what’s up scumbag?’
Baud
@raven:
Jesus. Was chalk involved?
Geminid
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’m not sure about Fortenberry’s district. There is a Nebraska district represented by Republican Dan Bacon that I believe Joe Biden won. Like Maine, Nebraska awards single electoral votes according to the result in individual districts (the statewide winner gets the other two). Biden got one electoral vote out of Nebraska, so he must have won either Fortenberry’s district or Bacon’s, and I think it was Bacon’s.
Maine also awards electoral votes by district, and it’s 2nd CD split the other way. Trump carried the district and it’s electoral vote, but Democrat Jared Golden won reelection.
The results in these congressional districts might have determined the election’s outcome had Joe Biden not eked out close wins in Georgia, Nevada, and Arizona. On the other hand he came up short in North Carolina by only 70,000 votes out of over 5 million votes cast, I think.
The trend in the last four states mentioned is towards the Democrats. If we can hold onto the first three and add North Carolina, Republicans are sunk in nationwide elections even if they can hang on to Florida and Texas. Republicans know this and that’s why they lean so heavily into voter suppression and election theft.
The Thin Black Duke
@dnfree: Unfortunately, disassociating ourselves from these type of people is going to be a choice we have to make. If these deluded assclowns are contributing to the problem, they got to be cut loose. When there’s only so much gas in the tank, it’s counter-productive to go on a road that leads to a dead end. I won’t waste energy on Trump voters or Jill Stein voters or fill-the-blank voters anymore. And yeah, she used to be a friend. Not now.
Mike in NC
Pence is really waiting for the court to rule that being LGBT means you go to jail.
raven
@The Thin Black Duke: I’ve had that policy for quite a while.
Raoul Paste
I don’t get this at all. First you say it was a sense of inevitability that helped defeat Hillary. Then you seem to promote a sense of hopelessness and democratic incompetence that sounds awfully discouraging.
One doesn’t have the hammer the Purity Left. I believe I read here that in 2016 Trump had 63 million votes Hillary had 66 million votes, with 8 million votes for other progressives. You don’t have to say “it’s your fault“, but presenting those numbers is fair
i’m really tempted to add “think of what might have been“, but I would stifle myself
edit. Responding to starfish
raven
LA PD is fuckin some people up.
The Thin Black Duke
@raven: I feel you, brother. Saves a helluva lot of time, doesn’t it?
Steeplejack
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I can’t believe Peggy Noonan is only 71. Her affect reads at about 85 and doddering.
Ksmiami
@Feathers: Abort this Court… we need fighters who can hone a message and motivate people
Redshift
When I got involved in politics in the Dean campaign and afterwards, I adopted the classic Superman slogan said my reason for doing it was “to fight the never-ending battle for truth, Justice, and the American Way.” The thing that took me a long time to realize was that “never-ending” was such a big part of it. I used to hope we’d win (because obviously a majority supports us) and I could relax. I don’t expect that any more.
Ksmiami
@Steeplejack: she’s an alcoholic- it ages you
raven
@The Thin Black Duke: I cutoff my half-brother and his fascist wife when Alan West lost! I don’t even know how long ago that was!
Spanky
@Starfish:
And on and on and on. I for one am already numb to DNC begging. Gimme more Actblue thermometers.
Baud
@Spanky:
Mine go into spam. All fundraising emails from any organization, political or not, are spam.
It’s really not an excuse for walking away.
zhena gogolia
@raven: where’s the video?
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Same here.
raven
@zhena gogolia: I don’t know if this works
https://twitter.com/nocontextcarmel/status/1541137238897065985?s=20&t=alnJW9ahuxRF0_G82GYCVg
I will say this, if you WANT to get your ass whipped the LAPD is a good place to start.
zhena gogolia
@Redshift: good point
JPL
@raven: ha the employee will be fired, and Rudy will insist they should be arrested. He slapped him on the back.. geez
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: I get so many spam emails I don’t care if they’re from candidates, or Really Good Mortgage dot com or you may have already a home depot gift certificate, but whoever came up with spam-texting must be flayed alive as an example to others
Starfish
@Spanky: My husband gets way more than I do, and I am annoyed by it.
What kills me is that some of these issues are very important ones, but some of it is just dumb stuff.
Like the All on the Line stuff to fight gerrymandering was seriously important.
This candidate in a state that I don’t live in? Not so much.
Why are people trying to get people to donate for abortion funds through Act Blue? Don’t they have local abortion funds? Don’t they have other ways to give directly rather than have the money sitting with Act Blue? If it is urgent, get the money to the place where it needs to go ASAP.
BlueGuitarist
@Another Scott:
@CCL:
Additional resources for down-ballot contributions:
Everydistrict, focusing this year on Arizona, Michigan, and Pennsylvania: https://everydistrict.us/
Democratic Legislative Campaign Committee DLCC: https://dlcc.org/
I’ve been working on identifying overlapping competitive districts: swing state house districts that overlap swing state senate districts and swing US House districts in states with swing US Senate/Governor elections, places where each additional voter can cast multiple votes in different elections to replace Republicans. Hoping this will be of interest.
zhena gogolia
@raven: I meant of Rudy
different-church-lady
@Baud: @Spanky: This relentless DNC begging is a real problem and they should knock it right the ‘eff off. But if that’s you only view of the party then it’s a much bigger problem. (And [a] the DNC ought to think about that and [b] Bernie’s people do the exact same thing.)
raven
@zhena gogolia: Nothin so far but this!
Giuliani refused medical attention.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@raven:
So, back-slapping politics and some old-fashion New Yawk frankness? Rita and Rudi both need to toughen up a little.
Starfish
@J R in WV: All rights have duties that are associated with them. This comes out of philosophy.
Basically, if we have a right to vote, then the people who control the voting have to allow us to do so.
If we have a duty to vote, then someone has to respect the outcome of the vote maybe?
I am not sure how it all quite works. Maybe someone who is good with philosophy can explain.
Omnes Omnibus
Bingo. I’ll also add that the voters who have decided that emigrating is the thing they need to do need to go on the list as well. It may be the right decision for that person and their family and, if so, I wish them well, but they have made their decision and aren’t a persuadable. Not worth the time and effort.
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: he slapped him in the back, not the face?
Starfish
@Omnes Omnibus: Some ex-pats can vote. Their process to vote may be more difficult.
If someone needs to go sit in Germany or Canada to feel safe, I am not going to judge them for it.
raven
@zhena gogolia:
open-handedly slapped him in the back and said, ‘Hey, what’s up scumbag?’
The Thin Black Duke
@Omnes Omnibus: Think of it as channeling your inner Marie Kondo.
BlueGuitarist
@Geminid:
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Geminid is right: Biden carried NE-2 R incumbent Bacon. Fortenberry is NE-1. Biden 41%, Dems running against Fortenberry 39% last couple of elections when better funded than previously.
Patty Pansing Brooks, a state senator, running for NE-1
https://pattyforcongress.com/
says she is “angry because my daughter no longer has the same rights that I had” and that her election Tuesday “is the first day in the country where we can fight back at the ballot box. VOTE!”
Omnes Omnibus
@Starfish: I am not judging. I am saying that when I am looking at people on whom to spend time and effort, they are low on the list.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Thin Black Duke: I AM NOT THROWING AWAY MY BOOKS!!!!! Oh, that wasn’t what you meant.
JPL
@raven: So brave.
CCL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
@Another Scott:
Apologies for the late response. Thanks for repeating the links. I really want to be much smarter about where I send my contributions.
zhena gogolia
@raven: good for them
Mnemosyne
@Starfish:
If you’re not motivated to vote for Joe Biden to keep Trump from having a second swing at creating the dictatorship of his dreams, then there’s absolutely nothing on this Earth that would motivate you.
Sorry, but I’ll use my valuable time talking to people who actually give a shit about the world.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
he called the cops
I think two years after Rudi dies they’re gonna find Andrew in a motel room where he’s been hiding from his creditors, under the name Hanover, after some grifters convince him to invest the last of his inheritance in a string of go-kart tracks, having earlier lost half of it to let’s say Snooki, or one of the real housewives, or whatever, after the collapse of a three-month, pre-nup-less marriage
zhena gogolia
@Mnemosyne: seconded
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: @zhena gogolia: Thirded.
Mnemosyne
@zhena gogolia:
Them: “There’s absolutely nothing you can do to change my mind.”
Me: “Okay, good talk.”
Them: “Wait, where are you going? Come back!”
I just don’t have the patience to argue with people whose minds are made up anymore. I will use my valuable time and energy talking to people who can be persuaded.
Starfish
@Mnemosyne: I am interested in a more competitive primary than I am in voting in someone who is going to be over 80 years old at his next election. It’s too important to put all the eggs in the basket of Joe Biden not dying during a primary or general election. I mean, it is likely that he will be alive, but I would like to have some other options here just in case. I don’t want it to be a dirty and dragged out primary, but I do want some real candidates in there.
The Thin Black Duke
@Mnemosyne: Sigh. (metaphorically smoking a cigarette) I missed you.
zhena gogolia
I guess Cacti got a substitute for today
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@schrodingers_cat: I know we’re supposed to pretend the very recent past is irrelevant, but I wish the people who complain about Joe Biden not inspiring them could think back two years to when the candidates who inspired them flamed out in the primaries when confronted with actual Democratic voters who aren’t extremely on-line and disappointed with tuna sandwiches. Or something.
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia:
I don’t think that’s fair. I think everyone so far is arguing in good faith. Many are wrong, but no one is trolling.
The Thin Black Duke
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think too many clueless voters succumb to what I call The Aaron Sorkin Syndrome, as in the Kennedyesque character gives an incredible speech and miraculous things happen overnight. People forget that while MLK was an amazing orator, the brother knew how to organize the troops on the ground. Faith without works is dead.
Baud
BTW, for people complaining that they already voted, it might be good to remind them that the reason the GOP didn’t enacted a nationwide abortion ban this weekend is because they voted.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ve been getting troll vibes
Geminid
@Raoul Paste: I’m not sure that there were 8 million “progressive” voters who voted 3rd party in 2016. It’s true that 1.47 people voted for Green Party candidate Jill Stein (that was up from the Green Party’s 470,00 votes in 2012).
In 2012, a little under 1.28 million people voted for Libertarian Gary Johnson, but 4.6 million voted for him in in 2016. Those extra 3+ million were not neccesarily “progressives.” I suspect they were probably all over the map ideologically, and misogyny was probably their biggest unifying characteristic. I think a lot of them may also have thought that Clinton had the election in the bag and believed they had a “free” protest vote.
In 2020 the Green and Libertarian parties reverted to totals closer to their 2012 performance. I would expect their vote share to continue accordingly, except- there are wealthy conservatives who would love to fund a spoiler ticket in 2024, and the “von Mises Caucus” that now controls the Libertarian Party are probably as money hungry and power hungry as anyone. I think they can be bought.
So I won’t be surprised to if Peter Thiel and friends sponsor a Libertarian ticket designed to peel off Democrats. Tulsi Gabbard and Andrew Yang are good prospects. Or maybe Gabbard will run for the Greens and Yang for the Libertarians. I think they’ll have plenty of money backing them if they do.
Citizen Alan
@Starfish:
There has never been an election in US history where a sitting president was defeated in the primary.
There has also never been an election in US history where a sitting president facing a significant primary challenger hasn’t gone on to lose the general election.
Like or not (and barring death or incapacitation), Joe is our guy. And anyone purportedly on the Left who agitates towards replacing him on the ballot is not on our side.
The Thin Black Duke
@zhena gogolia: I know what you mean. Cacti didn’t used to be this way. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that all of a sudden a lot of media platforms are pushing the narratives that 1) Voting Is Useless, and 2) Democrats Are Trying To Guilt Trip Us Into Voting. There are no accidents. Cacti derailed two threads last night. That’s not an accident.
MomSense
@The Thin Black Duke:
I saw that one too- and it made me furious. A lot more that have me fuming and a very popular ob/gym told all her followers that voting doesn’t work. I actually messaged her to tell her why that was not only inaccurate but voter suppression at a time when our democracy and bodies are on the line.
I am soooo pissed right now.
Citizen Alan
@Mike in NC: TBH, I expect some Southern state to pass a law criminalizing gays within the next year so they can get a test case up to SCOTUS as soon as possible.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: I commented yesterday about Yascha Mounk’s book “The Age of Responsibility”, which looks at the evolution of this concept. He discusses how, pre-roughly-1970s-ish, the concept of responsibility was constructed around others, doing things for others and a larger society in the faith that things would be done for you if you needed it, without shame. And that shifted around that time to a concept of “personal responsibility”, in which the most responsible thing you could do was to make sure that you were not a burden on anyone. That there is a moral obligation to society to be self-sufficient, and that if someone is not self-sufficient, they are possibly irresponsible.
The idea that voting is a civic responsibility is a hard thing to establish for people who have been raised to think that they shouldn’t need anything from society, that it would be shameful to need.
Baud
@MomSense:
Maybe she’s a MAGA.
Mnemosyne
@Starfish:
I realize that you loved how things turned out in 2016 and you’re disappointed your guy lost in 2020 even though he tried to foment an actual fucking coup.
You’re not as slick as you think you are.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Or a red rose. It is increasingly difficult to tell them apart these days.
MomSense
@zhena gogolia:
Cacti is not a troll but Cacti has been on the receiving end of some of our dismissive white liberal analysis and I think it has soured feelings about us.
Also, too sometimes people need to express their fears and the things that scare them. We are thick skinned enough to handle it.
raven
@MomSense: Fuck him, he’s an asshole.
Nicole
@raven: I’m just stunned this happened on Staten Island. It’s the right wing borough the rest of the boroughs are embarrassed to admit is part of our fair city.
MomSense
@Baud:
Sadly, she is usually a good source of information but I’m ready to tell her to stick to her fucking lane.
Everybody is a goddamned pundit now.
Baud
@Suzanne:
I believe it is an open question whether modern liberal culture has the capacity to do what needs to be done to preserve itself. Only time will tell.
Baud
@MomSense:
We are a society that loves to tell others they are doing it wrong. We are much less motivated in finding out how to do it right.
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
Cacti thinks he’s the “voice of The Youth” even though he’s well past 40. I am not responsible for coddling his immaturity.
MomSense
@raven:
Aren’t we all sometimes?
JaySinWA
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/krystieyandoli/rhode-island-senate-punched-opponent
ETA Jennifer Rourke won’t have him to be punched around by anymore, at least not in the election.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mnemosyne: he is, unfortunately, not alone there
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
I guess I would ask the opposite question:
What don’t we have to do to get people to vote?
The list seems it would be shorter. We hear that it doesn’t matter, it’s a pre-gone conclusion, etc, etc. As I’ve stated CA makes it pretty damn easy to vote, they have election drop boxes if you want to use a paper ballot. Or you can mail in your paper ballot, the postage is paid for, it costs you the time to drop it off or put it in outgoing mail. There are numerous polling places in my city and I can vote at any CA voting station if I want to use a machine. Polling places are open for several days. Hell 50 yrs ago I was in the military and CA made voting easy for me. The state begs every one to vote. I lived in OH for 11 yrs, I’ve seen a state that didn’t want me to vote. I once stood in the rain for 4 hrs to vote because the rethuglican SoS had combined precincts and cut the number of machines in half in the liberal areas. Unfortunately that asshole didn’t get to see the steam rising off me after that, maybe that’s fortunate for me…. So I’ve seen, in person, the lengths some will take with my right to vote, to deny anyone who couldn’t stand in line for 4 hrs in almost freezing rain the right to vote. I have voted in every election for over 50 yrs, and I will do so to my dying day. I don’t always get the government I want but it isn’t going to be my fault.
Baud
@MomSense:
I’m always an angel.
MomSense
@Mnemosyne:
Didn’t ask you too. Just saying Cacti is a long time commenter here and going through some shit. We can scroll past if we need to.
Takes at least two to derail a thread.
Citizen Alan
@Geminid:
Here’s why I hate 3rd party movements and why I think their damage is vastly in excess of how many votes they receive. The “message” of the Green Party from Nader in 2000 to the present day is that there’s no difference between the Dems and the GOP. “Republicrats,” Nader called them. And that description is true … IF you’re a pampered cosplay Marxist who hates both parties because neither of them will abolish capitalism.
But here’s the thing. If you lean in the direction of the Greens but also accept the obvious reality that 3rd parties can’t win in a first-past-the-post system, are you still going to trudge all the way to the polls and stand in line on a Tuesday? Or are you going to shrug and say “eh, they’re all the same” and stay home.
For every idjit who voted for Stein, I am convinced there were at least 3 who chose not to vote at all because of her rhetoric. That is how the fucking Greens cost us the 2016 election.
And for what it’s worth, I voted for Nader in 2000 in Mississippi (where it didn’t matter in the slightest), and I consider it the greatest source of personal embarrassment in my entire life.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@The Thin Black Duke: they never seem to grasp that Sorkin also wrote the responses to those speeches (full disclosure: I have never seen The West Wing, but I did see the Michael Douglas-Annette Benning movie, American President? )
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
We’re all going through some shit right now. That’s not an excuse to try and drag other people down to make yourself feel better, particularly on the very day that Roe v Wade was vacated.
Omnes Omnibus
Evidence for this?
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: That explains the pantslessness.
Darkrose
@Mnemosyne: HI! You’re back! Missed you!
Mnemosyne
@Darkrose:
Hi! My librarian got a fab new job at a museum in town. He’s a certified archivist now, too. I hope things are going as swimmingly for you in the library world.
Suzanne
@Citizen Alan:
Can we put the blame back where it belongs: on Trump voters? On the Electoral College? On social conservatives and Libertarians? On Boomers who got cheap housing and cheap college and then cratered that for everyone who came after?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mnemosyne: for myself, I wish Expand the Court! were the political silver bullet Cacti seems convinced it is. I have extreme doubt.
I wish there were something “a fighter” could do as President. I don’t see it. The answers seem to run to “Democrats have to tell people…” If you don’t get what’s going on, what’s been going on for six, or sixty years, it’s because you don’t want to. As I always say, the horses have been led to water, the importance of hydration has been explained ad nauseam, if they still refuse to drink, it’s on them. From there it tends to degenerate into silly fantasies of blackmailing Joe Manchin
Darkrose
@Mnemosyne: That’s awesome!
I got hired as the UCD Library Diversity Fellow right at the height of the pandemic. It’s been great, but it’s a two-year position ending next month. I’m doing academic library interviews at the moment, so hopefully something will pan out.
BlueGuitarist
@raven:
“oops upside your head, say oops upside your head
pay attention now”
The Gap Band 1979
MomSense
And this is why I stay away. I’ve been on the receiving end here many times as well. I think it’s silly that you are giving Cacti so much power. Jesus Christ this is a blog – you can scroll past or use the pie filter. We are talking to ourselves.
JaySinWA
@Citizen Alan: At some point there is going to need to be a viable third party to replace the rot in the R party, if we are lucky. On the path we are headed, one party rule will be the rule in most states and the country. It won’t be healthy, it may be deadly.
Our US system doesn’t manage the destruction of parties well, but we are most likely going to see it.
Mnemosyne
@Darkrose:
Nice! I know jobs can be a little more scarce up by you and that you’re hoping for something pretty specific. Fingers crossed!
Cameron
@JaySinWA: Sounds like a glimpse of self-awareness – from a Republican, no less.
Ruckus
@Suzanne:
As you very likely know that entire concept of self sufficiency is bullshit. We are animals, just like all the animals in the zoo or in the wild. We have advantages though. Better communications – at least possible better. Ability to store and teach the concepts of history and future. Most of us work (ed) in fields that require training, thought and effort. We have (at least many of us) healthcare. We can create better environments for ourselves (or make them worse – that never seems to be out of the question) Etc, etc. But what we don’t have is actual self sufficiency. We live in societies, some of which seem to only be trying to kill us. We work at odds all the time because some seem to think that we can have a better life by killing off random, or not so random groups/tribes or at least making life far more difficult for them. And we have politics, that fancy word for half of us have our heads located in a very tight, dark location that is normally considered the exit outlet. But actual self sufficiency has never been an available human trait since day one. Because we are somewhat social animals who all have similar needs and wildly varying abilities to answer those needs. From zero abilities to pretty damn good, none of them are good enough to allow self sufficiency in any society.
Starfish
@Mnemosyne: I did not vote for Bernie. The way that the current batch of centrists are going to get through this with laziness and condescension is a huge turn-off.
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
Here’s the thing: if Cacti was like, “Hey, jackals, I’m kind of having a hard time,” people would probably be more sympathetic. But apparently his coping mechanism is to lash out at other people, and I see no reason to be his punching bag. YMMV.
O. Felix Culpa
@MomSense:
Deleted.
Baud
@Ruckus:
It Takes A Village.
Geminid
@Citizen Alan: There was an putfot not far outside Leningrad that did an effective job of suppressing voters, whether they were Black men in Milwaukee, white women in Michigan, or white men in Pennsylvania.
The first part of the Muellar report and the related indictments told much of this story in detail. I wish this part had been released separately from the second. That part covered the trump campaign’s side of the matter, and since Muellar’s team could not close the circle of conspiracy (because they could not flip Roger Stone) the headlines were, “Muellar fails to prove collusion!”
I think the story of the proven Russian meddling would have been big news on a day when it wasn’t overshadowed by Trump’s part of the greater story.
JPL
Video of the assault on Rudy link
different-church-lady
@Suzanne: There’s plenty of blame to apportion. There is no single cause. The fact that there are other causes does not obviate any single other one of them. Everyone who undermined Hillary after the primary has a piece of this.
Betty Cracker
@Suzanne: Interesting. I was raised in the “personal responsibility” era, but somehow the “civic duty” thing stuck, probably because my mom believed that.
My zoomers seem more collective-minded but less attached to traditional vehicles for collective action, including political parties.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@JPL: Ho. Lee. Shit. I was feeling kind of bad, thinking it might actually have been a hard slap, something dangerous to a man that age. That…. doesn’t look like a hard slap.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I commented in the other thread, reminds me of the Maxine Waters assault on Tracey.
JPL
@JPL: Assault on Rudy poor guy
JPL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I love the aide giving him a gentle massage though. how horrifying
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Suzanne
@Ruckus: I know this. I offer this as consideration to help shed light on the question of why the youngs don’t always feel a sense of social obligation to vote. Literally their entire lifetimes, they’ve been raised in a society that has emphasized their need to be self-sufficient. The downside of this is that they’re self-concerned. It’s that whole concept of when a market economy became a market society, the only way to express your desires is with your market choices.
I will also note, and this is pure anecdata, the people I know who are the most about “earn my vote!” are not the stereotypical white entitled Berniebro types people complain about here. It’s a lot of people I know who are POC who are very active in social justice spaces. In talking with them, many of them feel that the Democratic Party is happy to consume their effort but then doesn’t answer their needs. When looking at their complaints, it is difficult to argue with them on that point. I may think that their analysis of the best course of action moving forward is incorrect, but I also think there’s an important lesson for the Democrats about delivering for your constituency. The GOP most assuredly does.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: just to repeat:
ETA:
Maybe she’s been with him since his breakfast bloodies, and though he might need a hand.
O. Felix Culpa
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That’s an assault? Good grief. It was barely a tap. Snowflakes
@Baud:
Yup.
Omnes Omnibus
@O. Felix Culpa:
Geminid
@Geminid: That’s “outfit not far outside Leningrad,” not “putfot.” In case anyone is confused.
Baud
@Suzanne:
If people are expecting deliverables, there’s nothing we can do. There’s simply no getting around falling a few votes short. If that means the GOP has to rule until there is a new Democratic generation that people will believe it, so be it. It’s harsh but it’s reality.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
This is correct, but I will still point and laugh.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Agreed.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Omnes Omnibus:
Adult me knows that’s true, and I’m generally against anything even moving in the general direction of violence, but… it’s Rudi! I can’t help it.
JaySinWA
@JPL: Having grown up with Saturday morning westerns with lots of fights, I was startled to learn what assault apparently consists of in legal terms.
“Ma he’s touching me” seems to qualify.
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
but whoever came up with spam-texting must be flayed alive as an example to others
You know, I’m not into torture but spam-texting is about 10000 miles beyond the pale and it’s possible that EVERYONE who does should be towed naked behind a NASCAR vehicle during a 500 mile race. I think that might stop it.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker:
Mine too.
Spawn the Elder has complained that the Dems seem focused on “old-people shit”, specifically mentioning health care and Social Security. Which he agrees are important, but are not the issues he cares about most (climate change, social justice issues).
The under-30s that I work with are all absolutely freaking out about college costs and cost of living. They are absolutely in dire financial straits if they don’t have rich parents.
O. Felix Culpa
@Baud: @Omnes Omnibus:
Agreed that touching Rudy was ill-advised (ewww, cooties!), but what Baud said.
JPL
@JaySinWA: If he hadn’t used the word scumbag, this would be a non-issue. Rudy would have been thrilled for someone asking how he is doing. One teeny tiny word changes the outcome for the employer.
Mnemosyne
@Suzanne:
I still think of the BLM activists who interrupted one of Hillary’s speeches in 2016 and she met with them personally afterwards to find out what they wanted from her.
They had nothing. No PowerPoint, no manifesto, not even a list of demands scribbled on the back of a napkin. They were so unaccustomed to the idea of working within a system that they had no idea what to even ask for.
That’s the problem with doing all of your activism outside of the system — when people inside the system want to help you, they can’t.
Geminid
@Baud: It was worse than in Traceys case. The back slap on Guiliani was a battery, although a minor one.
Tracey stuck his microphone in Waters’ way, right in front of her face. The video of that bulky guy crowding the smaller, slender Waters is infuriating.
Ruckus
@Baud:
I live in a city. Have seen villages, but I’m a city boy.
Baud
@JPL:
The party touched gets to determine whether the touching is welcome.
O. Felix Culpa
@Mnemosyne:
I had forgotten about that incident. Makes me sad: HRC actually went out of her way to meet with and listen to activists who had disrupted her speech. We could have had a mensch in the WH. Sigh.
At least we have one now and we need to do all we can to give him a bigger and better Senate majority. Plus keep the House and win as many governorships and state legislatures as possible. The immediate tasks in front of us are pretty clear.
Suzanne
@Baud:
I will say that I don’t think there’s really ever a good excuse not to vote. That’s a bare minimum. But if there’s no deliverables, I think there’s a good argument to be made that there’s no good reason to donate money or time, which are far scarcer.
But I will also note that we usually aren’t falling short in terms of votes. We’re fucked by the rural bias of the government, gerrymandering, DC not being a state, nine justices, etc. More people voted for HRC than Trump, don’t forget that. Its disheartening to have another round of blaming young people when this is the broken fucking government structure that is really to blame.
Ruckus
@Suzanne:
I think this is one problem with our society and especially the concept that self sufficiency is what we strive for. That college education will likely help both the person and society. Society less than the person but still it’s a help. But if we allow/demand over the top costs for something that is necessary for a reasonable society then the society has failed and is no longer reasonable. And our society has failed and is unreasonable because we seem to worship the almighty fucking dollar rather than any accomplishment. SFB is/was so adamant that he is far wealthier than he actually ever was is because so much of what we supposedly value in this county is the wealth of some over the lives of many. I don’t think that most of us actually do but some segments seem to value nothing else, and much of our national government seems to be based around that concept. Two of our democratic senators sure seem to be in that group.
Suzanne
@Mnemosyne: I agree with you. By no means am I arguing that their strategy is designed for maximum effectiveness.
Mnemosyne
@Suzanne:
FWIW, young people aren’t the problem. It’s nice when they do turn out because that usually means that they’ll end up making a lifelong habit of voting, but these voting patterns have been in place for decades.
It’s the people in their 30s and 40s who don’t bother to vote or keep up on current events who are shameful, IMO. And, no, I don’t count them as “young people,” and neither do the demographers who keep track of voting patterns. Most Millennials are full-grown adults in their 30s at this point.
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: just what did boomers do to make college expensive?
Betty Cracker
@Baud: Ha! GMTA:
Baud
@Suzanne:
I agree with all of that. The reality is, there will be some people we can’t persuade, some for more legitimate reasons than others. I just don’t want us to be apologetic about who we are or what we stand for.
schrodingers_cat
Teri Kanefield puts its succinctly
Suzanne
@Ruckus:
More than that: we should be fucking telling young people that getting a college education is a service to their country, and that we will pay for it with the thanks of a grateful nation.
Instead, we heap more and more debt on them to give tax cuts to rich people and then we wonder why they don’t feel a sense of civic pride or engagement.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Mnemosyne
@zhena gogolia:
They voted for Nixon and Reagan, unfortunately. Nixon got an outsized share of the 18-to-25 vote in 1972, and those voters stuck with the Republicans through Reagan, Bush 1, and Bush 2.
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia:
They cut funding to public universities to absolute ribbons. In the 60s and 70s, when Boomers were in school, most state universities were funded roughly 75% by public tax dollars and 25% by attendees and their families. Now, in most states, it’s about 10% from the state and 90% by the attendee/family.
O. Felix Culpa
@Suzanne:
I take your point, and I think it helps to use language precisely. So, not “we” heap more debt for tax cuts, but REPUBLICANS heap more debt to give tax cuts to rich people. “We” didn’t do that. I suspect that most of “us” opposed such measures.
I know you know that, but our messaging should be accurately targeted, even amongst ourselves. That in turn makes accurate messaging outwards more automatic.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Given the timeline, was it the Boomers or the prior generation? Boomers really hit their political power in the 90s and 2000s, I thought.
Baud
@Baud:
I mean, Reagan wasn’t a Boomer.
O. Felix Culpa
@Baud:
Sadly, the execrable Newt Gingrich was.
Suzanne
@Baud: Boomers really started turning it up in 1980. That became the “greed is good” era.
Suzanne
@Baud: Boomers voted for Reagan!
Here’s the 1980 electoral breakdown. Boomers fall into two of those age brackets, 22-29 and 30-44.
O. Felix Culpa
@Suzanne:
I was in the first bracket. Didn’t vote for that smarmy sonofabitch and apologize for the selfish pricks in my cohort who did. Never understood his appeal.
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus:
Reverse the order and it’s dead-on.
different-church-lady
@schrodingers_cat:
“But it’s my only line! [cries]”
Baud
@Suzanne:
Seems like older boomers and the next generation up were the main culprits.
Suzanne
@Baud: Sure. (The youngs weren’t great about voting then, either.) But you can look at electoral data for 1984 and 1988, the Boomers went for the GOP then, too.
They love their tax cuts! What just stings is that they got the benefit of a strong economy and strong public institutions in their formative years and then dismantled it for those who came later.
Suzanne
@O. Felix Culpa: That’s fair.
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: I’m a boomer and I have always supported democrats who are not the ones who did all these things
O. Felix Culpa
@Suzanne:
I never understood people who want to cut taxes for education after they and their children are done. It’s short-sighted and counter-productive. Even if we don’t care about the next generation (and I think we should), we need an educated workforce to keep things going–and the money flowing into Social Security–for us when we’re in our dotage.
Enlightened self-interest, if you will. The barest minimum of the social contract.
Sally
I am so embarrassed. If I had thought my
rantcomment would be picked up, I would have spent time trying to make it literate, rather than the stream of consciousness that tumbled onto the page. I stand by my comment, though. I agree with Mnemosyne who said if you need any more reason to vote than keeping the fascist dictators out, woe is you. That is what I meant by vote, even if you think it is for the lesser of two evils. I know the Australian system and like it. Compulsory voting, Universal franchise – I don’t believe anyone should lose the right to vote, ever, for any reason. People can put a blank ballot in the box/mail, but you don’t not vote because you couldn’t be arsed. It is made easy, though, and that’s something we really need to work towards, ensuring the (universal) right to vote is matched with the access to vote. But only Dems try to make voting accessible.So vote!
I disagree with Suzanne at #186 that we haven’t really fallen short of votes. Dem’s vote reasonably well in Presidential elections, not so much in off years, state and local elections, even governors. And that is where much of the gerrymandering and suppression occurs. You lose state lege and/or governor and poof! no drop boxes, limited early voting, closed voting stations, ID’s, etc. And then people complain that the President can’t wave a wand and make it so. If people voted, in all these elections, no-one would have to donate all that time and money for elections, because Dems could change the system, like they have in CA.
Voting works!
I hate the concept that everything is transactional, but if we want to describe it that way, then the obligation (not privilege, not right) to vote is the cost of living in a free, democratic society where we can determine our futures and manage our own lives. Not voting has brought us to this point where the minority dictates our lives, on abortion – which is really health care – on guns in society, on voting, on taxes, on many things where the laws are becoming more and more out of step with the majority of Americans. And as I said, clawing it back is going to be so much harder than keeping it.
Vote harder!
The youngs voting is most important. They have the most to gain and to lose. For those of us who might croak sometime in the next twenty years, it’s so-so, but for youngs, they have eighty years of living in the society their votes will shape. I understand people here disagreeing with what I am saying, but I can’t get my head around people who think it’s a waste of time voting.
If you breathe – vote!
Darkrose
I’m 52, so I’m in old-people territory, but I want to note that health care is absolutely not “old-people shit”, especially not for those of us who are disabled and have been for most of our lives. I would not have been able to quit the job that was driving me to self-harm had I not been confident that I could get health coverage for all of my various physical and mental health issues. Health care is also extremely important for people of childbearing age–especially now. Health care for queer and trans people is absolutely a social justice issue. The idea that something this fundamental is dismissed as “old people shit” is concerning.
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia: That’s great, but the Boomer generational cohort has been pretty firmly in the GOP camp for a while.
@O. Felix Culpa: I agree with you on that, too. But it’s all part of that shift from feeling a sense of responsibility to others to feeling only responsible for yourself.
Mnemosyne
@Darkrose:
Seconded. Young people not realizing that they’re one car accident or burst appendix away from total financial ruin far more complete than any amount of student loans is very worrying. I’m assuming it’s because they were always on their parents’ insurance and don’t have to think about it until they’re 25 now.
Suzanne
@Darkrose: I don’t agree with Spawn the Elder on that issue, either, BTW. He’s trans and has bipolar disorder, and I have reminded him that his health care has been a significant expense (also borne almost exclusively by me and not my ex-husband, too, FWIW). Without the ACA, it would have been insurmountable, and I have told him that he owes his transition basically to the efforts of Barack Obama. I think he hears that a lot from his friends, many of whom have that young immortal outlook. He turned 18 this year. He has registered to vote.
It is true that the majority of health care dollars are spent on old people nearing end of life, though. So in that, he is not wrong.
Suzanne
@Mnemosyne: One thing that people are forgetting about the student loan problem, though, is that it has kids now. Mr. Suzanne, SuzEx (Spawn’s dad), and I all have student loan debt. None of us came from families who had college funds for us. So we have nothing saved for him, and the cycle will continue. And I know literally hundreds of people who are in this same boat. So it’s intergenerational wealth destruction.
livewyre
@MomSense: I feel like it’s important for me to follow up on this, especially considering my involvement there.
In one post I pointed out that it’s actions we should suspect, not identity. Meaning: it doesn’t matter who it is, how long they’ve been here, whether they were better before, as long as they’re abusing now. Abuse is abuse and can’t be tolerated from the “right person” or “right kind of person”. If they’re going through something that makes them lash out, then that needs to be addressed before they’re let loose to harm others.
Of course, there’s a whole thing about that situation that didn’t fit a pattern of venting or lashing out, which is why I brought up the possibility of it being a paid campaign of disruption. Those are all too common these days. The name could have been hijacked, or the one behind it could have been radicalized or disillusioned into accelerating oppression.
All that aside, the motivation isn’t important – what is, is that abuse occurred, and needs to be stopped whenever it does. None of us are disposable shields for the rest. We advance or fall together.
Another Scott
@Citizen Alan: You know they’re itching to revisit Lawrence v. Texas:
It was 6:3.
We know what’s coming. They’ve told us for years.
We have to vote the monsters out, and Fight for 15!! They will keep pushing, and sticking their noses in everyone’s panties and private business, until they are stopped. They think they are our rulers now and we have to show them that the are wrong.
Grr…,
Scott.
Another Scott
@Suzanne: Reagan wasn’t a boomer.
Just sayin’.
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@Geminid: I thought “putfot” was some French term, like maybe a location where remains of the underbused are taken.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Suzanne
@Another Scott: Boomers voted for Reagan. Have we not litigated the fact that the electorate is the issue to death in the last couple of days?! That cohort wanted Reagan’s policies and gave them to their kids good and hard.
Another Scott
@Suzanne: In the 1980 race, the issue of the day wasn’t cutting support for higher education. It was things like inflation and the economy. Carter said that Reagan was going to try to gut Social Security and Reagan said, oh no, and “There you go again” and so forth and everyone laughed. He was such a scamp.
:-/
Reagan and the GQP cut the government, but the states had a lot to do with cutting higher education (in large part because of federal cut-backs).
Blaming “boomers” is lazy, and makes as much sense as blaming short people or people with detached earlobes. I’m a boomer. I never voted for Reagan. Obama is a boomer.
Blame the people who did the policies after swearing up and down that they would never do any such thing, who swore that tax cuts would pay for themselves, who ran on a platform that was a pack of lies:
Why not blame all the “Reagan Democrats” who were sold a pack of lies about how they were going to protect American jobs – jobs that instead were decimated in the Rust Belt??
“Boomers” didn’t do those bad things in the 1980s and afterwards. Reagan and the GQP did after saying they would do the opposite.
Eyes on the prizes.
/soapbox
Cheers,
Scott.
Suzanne
@Another Scott: The Boomer cohort has voted to reduce higher education funding in nearly every state, for decades. I pointed out that the Boomers started but certainly did not finish voting in large numbers in 1980. Of course #notallboomers but seriously, are you so fragile that you need to hear that?!
They benefited — as a group — from a strong economy and strong education system in their formative years, and then dismantled it — as a group — for those who came after.