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You are here: Home / Jan 6: Hearings / ‘Pulverized’ (Open Thread)

‘Pulverized’ (Open Thread)

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According to Rolling Stone, Trump’s lawyers are auditioning Mark Meadows for the role of fall guy for the coup plot:

“Mark is gonna get pulverized…and it’s really sad,” predicts one of Trump’s current legal advisers. “Based on talking to [Meadows in the past, it felt like] he doesn’t actually believe any of this [election-theft] stuff, or at least not most of it. He was obviously just trying to perform for Trump, and now he’s maybe screwed himself completely.”

So sad! [ actual size]

The person quoted seems to believe that if Trump really, really thought he won the election, he’s not liable for leading an insurrection to overturn the results. I’m not a lawyer, but Liz Cheney is, and as she noted yesterday, Trump “is a 76-year-old man. He is not an impressionable child.”

More from the Rolling Stone article:

But Trumpland’s concerted efforts to distance the former president and other protected persons from Meadows comes amid a broader search for someone to take the fall. Cheney’s list of patsies on Tuesday included Trumpist lawyer and “coup memo” author John Eastman — whom, as Rolling Stone reporting in June, Trump’s team has been eyeing — and Sydney Powell, another Trump lawyer. Cheney also named Rep. Scott Perry, who allegedly was part of the push to get the Justice Department to overturn the election.

Though it remains to be seen who will ultimately be saddled with the bulk of the blame and legal baggage, it is clear this collective — long known for petty backbiting and infighting before, during, and after the Trump administration — has no intention of all going down together.

If this account is true (and Rolling Stone says it’s based on conversations with eight sources), Trump and his crew understand how damning the committee’s revelations have been so far but believe they can “insulate” Trump from legal exposure if his henchmen go down. That’s not a completely delusional theory — Michael Cohen went to jail for the Stormy Daniels payoff while Individual 1 got off scot-free.

Let’s hope for a different outcome this time. Meanwhile, may the “Trumpland” snarling and under-bussing commence in earnest!

Open thread.

 

Reader Interactions

194Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    The person quoted seems to believe that if Trump really, really thought he won the election, he’s not liable for leading an insurrection to overturn the results.

    Only if you succeed.

  3. 3.

    Villago Delenda Est

    I guess the plans for Eastman being the fall guy have been forgotten, as the Jan 6 committee gets closer and closer to the Orange Throne.

  5. 5.

    ian

    @Baud: My vampire lore isn’t what it was in my teenage years, but I was under the impression ‘once you go vamp, you never go back.’

  6. 6.

    zhena gogolia

    I’m wondering why Raskin said the next meeting would be a reckoning for the country. That sounds pretty serious.

  7. 7.

    Skepticat

    I’ve been thinking about Michael Cohen lately. My great fear is that Dump indeed will see no consequences; his useful idiots might and should, but not alone.

  9. 9.

    Matt McIrvin

    I hope that if nothing else, we can convince some people on the margins that working toward the Führer will not help you in the long run.

  10. 10.

    citizen dave

    I know many salivate at TFG in prison, and I totally agree he should be given the gravity of this crime.  But I at least hope for an indictment and plea agreement,  including total muzzling of his bullshit on any media, including amy amplification by his family.  Junior spouts off, daddy goes to prison..  Been thinking a lot lately what a missed opportunity in our history that Dick Nixon was not indicted.  Doubt it would have gone to trial,  likely a plea and no prison time.

  13. 13.

    Jeffro

    @zhena gogolia: I have a feeling that at the end of next week’s hearing, that’s where the J6 committee will issue multiple recommendations, referrals, etc.

    1. “Individuals A, B, and C will be referred to DOJ for seditious conspiracy.”
    2. “Individuals D-M should be expelled from Congress.”
    3. “the former president will be referred to DOJ for essentially everything under the sun.”

     

    Whether DOJ and/or our national snooze media take the ball from there and run with it is anyone’s guess (mine would be yes and half-heartedly, respectively)

  14. 14.

    citizen dave

    My feed cut out yesterday during the clip about the call with Pence on jan 6.  Do we know what all TFG said to him?  Called him?

  15. 15.

    Elizabelle

    Cassidy Hutchinson’s testimony re Meadows was interesting.  He was just scrolling on his phone, all day long, in the runup and during the insurrection.  Was he passively watching?  Was he directing any actions?  It seems he was commiserating with Hannity and others who messaged him.

    Meadows should turn.  No idea what is up there.  He does not seem to be a bright man.

  18. 18.

    kindness

    Trump’s people are more fantasy orientated than any of the Dungeons & Dragons crew I used to know.

  19. 19.

    Betty Cracker

    @zhena gogolia: IIRC, Meadows’ “foundation” received a very large check from a Trump PAC, so that could explain his silence so far. The Trump crime spree taught me there are so many things that are legal that should not be, such as that thinly disguised bribe. It’s so much worse than I thought! Like the fact that a Trump-affiliated organization was paying for all the lawyers representing former White House officials who are being questioned by the committee. On what planet is that not a conflict of interest? But it’s apparently legal.

  20. 20.

    M31

    @Elizabelle: Meadows should turn. No idea what is up there. He does not seem to be a bright man.

    “The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.”

  21. 21.

    Elizabelle

    @zhena gogolia:   Didn’t Rudy, in filmed testimony aired yesterday, say he himself might have called someone with the Cipollone crew a “pussy”?   The ones who were appalled at the crazy asses meeting at the White House (Overstock-Butina guy, Dr Pepper, etc.)

    I thought I heard Rudy stating that he might have called someone a pussy. (For opposing the crazy asses, himself included.)

  22. 22.

    M31

    The truth is, these are all a bunch of fucking traitors, and need to spend a lot of time in jail.

  26. 26.

    scav

    But your Honor!  My client really really really thought the money in the bank was his!  It was just a bog-standard all-American run-of-the-mill masked and armed withdrawal!

  27. 27.

    zhena gogolia

    @Elizabelle: yes he said he called Cipollone and crew pussies, “excuse the expression” — but tfg also called Pence that, per Ivanka’s chief of staff.

  28. 28.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @zhena gogolia: that tiny little pants-peeing drunk, still trying to sound like a tough guy, as if saying a swear is finally gonna get him up on that balcony

    “Mark is gonna get pulverized…and it’s really sad,”

    Couldn’t happen to a schmuckier schmuck. I mean, I guess it could. It’s almost comical that they never see the line of broken, abandoned people he leaves in his wake. My only regret is I can’t see a bus The Beast would feel the need to throw Lindsey under. Not that he wouldn’t, I just don’t see it

    ETA: per Ivanka’s chief of staff.

    and I’ll ask again, because this rankles me, why does a staffer have a “chief of staff”? I guess it might be a thing, people like Dan Pfeiffer and Alyssa Mastromonaco– two Obama staffers whose memoirs I listened to– certainly had staffers and ran offices, but… chief of staff? I doubt it. A petty thing, I admit, if Herself wanted to have her own little court like Napoleon’s sisters, but, again, it rankles.

  29. 29.

    Betty Cracker

    The next January 6th hearing will be July 21 in prime time. The next day, I’m going to a weekend family reunion thing with many wingnut attendees. Will be wild!

  30. 30.

    SFAW

    @Baud: ​

    Meadows should turn. It’s the only way.

    I don’t disagree (philosophically), but given Meadows’s rep for lying as easily as he breathes, I wonder whether that would work. Unless they have ironclad backup data/info, I would not be amazed/surprised were he to perjure himself (but not get caught).

  33. 33.

    piratedan

    @Jeffro: I’ve wondered if Nancy is going to give the GOP folks named in Coup Club a chance to resign or if they will dare her to introduce a motion to have it brought to a vote…

     

    either way, if they go “quietly”, then we rid ourselves of the likes of Greene, Gohmert, Biggs, Gosar and Jordan et al from any future political career.  If McCarthy and the Trumpies choose to “defend” them, then you have a very public vote.

     

    win or lose…. Anyone that chooses to support the seditionists now has provided 24/7 campaign fodder for their opponents.

    Maybe I’m too much of a politics geek, but I still retain some minimal faith that most people will support a democracy versus a dictatorship, especially one that gives more rights to guns than it does women.

  35. 35.

    gvg

    We the country, the law abiding need almost all of them to serve time. They almost all actually broke laws. On the one hand, it is a fact that many criminals can’t be convicted without some one criminal turning and testifying, but on the other hand, it really is not enough to scare future traitors of the whole crew doesn’t go to jail, especially the former President and all the rich important guys.

    Right after some crooked Congressmen go to prison and can’t gum up the works, we need to pass some laws about money and pacs with multiple police agencies authorized to enforce so they can’t be hamstrung by say one President or Governor appointing one AG.  It needs to include Judges (and Supreme court Justices) accepting money from non public sources……I know the 6 may overturn this, but we can make that stink and make things worse for them, especially if we catch them taking money and display it to the public before they get the case in front of themselves.

     

    Well that is 2 parts. The jail for the traitors is actually easier. Reforming the money is slipperier and harder. I think they are both needed, not the same problem but reinforcing bad things together.

  36. 36.

    Elizabelle

    @Betty Cracker:   Unless we get another last minute emergency hearing, like Cassidy Hutchinson’s.  To head off witness tampering.  Events move swiftly.

    These hearings are must see TV for me.  Organize your life to catch them TV (OK, C-Span online).

  37. 37.

    Martin

    Cheney’s closing shot about Trump trying to manipulate witnesses wasn’t a call for the DOJ to charge him with witness tampering. It was about informing the DOJ that this seditious conspiracy is still ongoing to this day and only the DOJ and a judge can put an end to it. It’s not a call to hold Trump accountable, it’s a call for someone to make him stop.

  44. 44.

    azlib

    @M31: The truth is, these are all a bunch of fucking traitors, and need to spend a lot of time in jail.

     
    I wonder if St Elba is still open?

  48. 48.

    MazeDancer

    Offered immunity, versus 15 to 20, Meadows will definitely flip.

    But he such a lying liar, DoJ may not offer.

  50. 50.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Betty Cracker:

    I’m a bit surprised that the J6 committee (AFAIK) hasn’t followed money trails. It’s not cheap to get transportation, accommodations, and meals for thousands and thousands of people — let alone all the weaponry and other gear.

    WHO PAID FOR THIS?

  53. 53.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Martin:

    It was about informing the DOJ that this seditious conspiracy is still ongoing to this day and only the DOJ and a judge can put an end to it.

    IANAL. A judge could issue some kind of order barring trump from contacting witnesses?

  54. 54.

    Elizabelle

    RE the “Pulverized” comment:  these are Trump’s lawyers, keep in mind.  Who knows their quality?

  55. 55.

    Paul in KY

    @citizen dave: Sometimes I daydream about TFG being offed in various ways (all legal, etc.) and then I think I may need him to whack DeSatanis.

  59. 59.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @azlib: Elba wasn’t much of a prison.  Too close to Europe.  Saint Helena, OTOH, was ideal.  One of C.S. Forester‘s Hornblower stories featured an attempt by members of the Old Guard to sail to St. Helena to free Napoleon.

    On edit: Shoulda scrolled down.  Now we’re cookin’!

  63. 63.

    Martin

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: If he’s indicted, the judge can slap all kinds of restrictions on him. I think Cheney’s point is that the DOJ and the courts need to go from passively observing Trumps criming to actively observing it.

  64. 64.

    gene108

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I hope that if nothing else, we can convince some people on the margins that working toward the Führer will not help you in the long run.

    Any competent person already knows this, but mediocre and incompetent people get a once in a lifetime shot to head a department like the EPA, be a Cabinet Secretary, etc., even if it’s just in acting position.

  70. 70.

    Betty Cracker

    @FredW: From CNBC on 8/21/2018:

    Michael Cohen, the former personal lawyer and fixer for President Donald Trump, pleaded guilty on Tuesday to eight counts related to tax fraud, excessive campaign contributions, making false statements to a financial institution, and unlawful corporate contributions at a court hearing in New York on Tuesday.

    Two of the counts that Cohen pleaded guilty to appear to relate to Trump directly.

    Cohen admitted on Tuesday to making payments to two women at the direction of an unidentified candidate for political office who appears to be the president. Those payments, Cohen said, were made to influence the outcome of the election.

    Cohen definitely did some shady shit for his own benefit, but he was also punished via fines and jail time for crimes committed on Trump’s behalf. Trump wasn’t charged while in office, and the statute of limitations ran out last year without him being charged at all. He got off scot-free.

  71. 71.

    lgerard

    I wonder what is happening with Meadows voter fraud case.
    That better not get swept under the rug considering some of the very long sentences given to a few other select people

  72. 72.

    Paul in KY

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Mine generally includes hanging or beheading or the ancient Elvish manner of pushing you off a very high cliff.  No firing squad, as he doesn’t deserve that.

  73. 73.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

     

    Liz Cheney is, and as she noted yesterday, Trump “is a 76-year-old man. He is not an impressionable child.”

    “Ah, but he was 74 then and therefore was not the same person he is today and cannot be held guilty for his actions!”

    Trump’s lawyers, probably

  76. 76.

    Steeplejack

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    [. . .] why does a staffer have a “chief of staff”?

    Srsly. Nobody was calling Cassidy Hutchinson Meadows’s “chief of staff.” She was an aide. But Princess Ivanka has to have a chief to staff to indicate that she’s management. Not one of the background spear-carriers.

  78. 78.

    gene108

    Meadows initially turned over a bunch of info to the J6 Committee, like the texts Hannity and Laura Ingraham sent him. I can’t remember why he decided to stop cooperating.

    My guess is Meadows was a Congressman. He may still want a career in politics.

    This may be the reason so many higher ranking Republicans, like those in Congress, who were at the insurrection planning meetings, sought pardons, etc. are refusing to cooperate. They hope they can ride this out and stay in Republican politics.

  79. 79.

    The Moar You Know

    None of these people are stupid, save for the failsons, and even they are less stupid than advertised.

    Liz Cheney at least has Trump’s number.  She’s already anticipated the most likely defense – that Trump is an idiot.  The committee needs to make sure that it’s made clear he knew everything that was going on and signed off on it all.  I’m confident that they can and will.

  80. 80.

    Citizen_X

    “Mark is gonna get pulverized…and it’s really sad,” predicts one of Trump’s current legal advisers.

    Shut the fuck up, smug traitor.

    Herschmann was the last smart lawyer for TFG, and he treated all you guys and your cockamamie treason schemes with the withering contempt you so richly deserve. You guys think you’re so smart, targeting Meadows? None of you have any sense of ethics or intelligence beyond raw animal survival instinct, which is why you’re all frantically backstabbing each other as fast as you can.

    Not that I have the slightest sympathy for Meadows. Squeeze them all till they squawk.

  82. 82.

    UncleEbeneezer

    I have a tough time imagining how Meadows goes down without Trump also being charged with something.  There’s already so much evidence of wrongdoing by Trump that is tied to Meadows and I can only imagine even more coming out if Meadows is prosecuted.  But maybe I’m being optimistic.

  83. 83.

    Roger Moore

    @SFAW:

    I don’t disagree (philosophically), but given Meadows’s rep for lying as easily as he breathes, I wonder whether that would work.

    Nobody should be allowed to cut a deal just with testimony; they need to bring documentary evidence.

  84. 84.

    patrick II

    A couple of legal questions from a non-lawyer.

    Why are not Trump and his fellow plotters being called treasonous?

    If people die during the execution of a criminal plot, aren’t the plotters guilty of murder?

  85. 85.

    Roger Moore

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    People talk about setting a bad precedent by jailing them. What kind of precedent are we setting if we don’t?

    They set the bad precedent by doing stuff that deserves prison time; we’re just cleaning up the mess by prosecuting them for it.

  87. 87.

    JaneE

    if Trump really, really thought he won the election, he’s not liable for leading an insurrection to overturn the results

    And that was from the “law and order” party.

    Too bad nobody told Al Gore that.

    If Democrats had figured out to commit voter fraud on that massive a scale – Biden’s popular victory was multiple millions of voters – and leave not a single shred of evidence in the process – 60 lawsuits in multiple states found no real evidence – then the Democrats would never lose another election.  So why do the Republicans have so many people in congress?  Whatever it is only works a the presidential level?

    All the “fall guys” worked hard to get to the places where they could be fall guys, and they deserve every second of jail time that they get – if any.  None of their actions should be allowed to shield Trump from prosecution.

    If and only if they could show that Trump knew absolutely nothing about anything after election night would it be reasonable to say he should not be prosecuted criminally.  And if they could show that, it would just reinforce the fact that the GOP places the good of the country last in its priorities.

    If we are to be a country that respects the law, we need to stop letting some people be above it.

  88. 88.

    jonas

    Isn’t Meadows also under investigation for voter fraud in NC? IIRC he registered to vote in more than one district using a phony address or something.

    Only the best people!

  89. 89.

    Scout211

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: why does a staffer have a “chief of staff”?

    Not a staffer.  Ivanka was the First Lady.  The Second Lady  (Mother Pence) and the Third Lady (what’s-her-name Trump) also had chiefs of staff. It’s in the White House bible . . . or something . . .

  91. 91.

    The Moar You Know

    Why are not Trump and his fellow plotters being called treasonous?

    If people die during the execution of a criminal plot, aren’t the plotters guilty of murder?

    @patrick II: the Constitution’s definition of treason is a bit different than the dictionary definition and actually requires war against America (which this wasn’t) or selling America out to another country (not within the scope of the January 6 investigations, but we all know that in fact Trump did this with respect to Russia).  What Trump did was insurrection, not treason.

    As far as your second question, absolutely yes, but for practical purposes it only matters if you’re poor and/or black.  Still, it could be charged.

  92. 92.

    Geminid

    @Citizen_X: Trump’s people may especially resent Meadows because he dished out a lot of material to the J6 Commitee before his belated decision to clam up. A lot of the emails the Commitee has released came from Meadows.

    Meadows had a safe House seat that he threw away when he took the Chief of Staff job. My theory is that Meadows planned on Trump winning reelection, and then endorsing Meadows for the retiring Richard Burr’s Senate seat. Now, instead of being on the campaign trail, Meadows is in the shit.

  93. 93.

    Roger Moore

    @azlib:

    I wonder if St Elba is still open?

    Nit: You either mean Elba or (more likely) St. Helena.  Elba is a small island off the coast of Italy of which Napoleon was made nominal sovereign after he was forced to abdicate in 1814.  He later escaped from Elba and reestablished himself as French Emperor for the 100 days.  After he was overthrown and forced to abdicate again, he was exiled to St. Helena, a small island in the middle of the South Atlantic where he spent the remainder of his life as a prisoner of the British government.

  94. 94.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @patrick II: Treason requires an official time of war, is my understanding.  That’s why OK/PB’s are being charged with Seditious Conspiracy.  Charging Trump with SC, however, would be tough based on what we know so far.  It’s a possibility if more comes out but the standards are pretty high and difficult to meet, especially when DOJ policy is only to bring indictments if they are confident they can get a conviction.  They are very smart and careful that way, which is why they have a 95% conviction record.

  96. 96.

    Anonymous At Work

    The mystifying thing for me has always been how hard so many of Trump’s cronies believe that *they* alone will be the ones that Trump supports after he’s done with them.  Trump’s never supported anyone for any longer than necessary to keep his ass afloat.  Manafort and Stone and Flynn got pardons to keep them out of jail to keep their mouths shut for another day.  If Eric Trump gets caught embezzling, Trump will be “Eric who? I don’t know the man.”

    And you don’t make someone else the fall guy who can flip, with documentation, who hasn’t volunteered.  I can’t see Meadows volunteering to take all the blame for the situation, nor can I see anyone believing it.

    It’s hard to tell where the evil ends and the stupidity and incompetence begin.

  98. 98.

    narya

    @Baud: I think there were a few tiers of it. Some of them–like the one guy yesterday–basically emptied their bank accounts and went. Some were better off than that guy and could afford it instead of a Carnival cruise. Some grifted funds from supporters. The ones at the top had access to even more griftfunds. Plenty of spaces for skimming, of course, and plenty of deeper pockets here and there, attached to folks who thought they’d get a payoff (not necessarily a quid pro quo, but close enough) if the whole thing was successful.

  99. 99.

    Geminid

    @jonas: Meadows and his wife registered to vote using the address of a North Carolina residence that they rented for a short period of time. Mrs. Meadows voted in that locality but Mr. Meadows did not. I haven’t looked this story up in a while but I think that North Carolina authorities were investigating her.

  100. 100.

    Roger Moore

    @gene108:

    I can’t remember why he decided to stop cooperating.

    There was never a coherent story.  I don’t think he ever truly cooperated.  He turned over a bunch of material to the committee, but it was highly selective: texts with some people but not others and the like.  My theory is he was trying to use the committee to hurt the people he gave material for, but balked when it would have involved providing the same kind of material on people he wanted to protect.

  101. 101.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    Has there been any official word if the Watergate DOJ memo is still in effect for Trump re: J6?

  102. 102.

    jonas

    @The Moar You Know: ​
      I think this is absolutely right. They’re anticipating the ultimate white-collar criminal defense: “my client was too stupid/ignorant to realize what was going on in his own operation, so wasn’t responsible.” I think they’re making it perfectly clear that virtually *everyone* in Trump’s circle — save for certifiable nutbars like Powell and that Overstock.com guy — knew the election was over and that he lost. There was *no way* he was being shielded from the truth. And he still decided to orchestrate (and lead — but the SS thwarted that) an armed attack on the Capitol.

  103. 103.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Baud:

    I s’pose, but it seems unlikely, at least for all of them.

    Oh well. If the committee thinks it’s important to follow the money, they will. If not, not. I trust them.

  105. 105.

    UncleEbeneezer

    THREAD: Under DC law, manslaughter occurs when a person recklessly causes an unintentional death. Under the federal Assimilative Crimes Act, state (or DC) law can be charged federally when it occurs on federal property.

    For manslaughter, it’s not necessary to show that the defendant intended the deaths to occur. That’s what makes it different from murder.

    As president, Trump has a duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. His failure to call up the national guard or even to call off the mob could be described as “causing” the 5 unintentional deaths as the Capitol.

    To prove Trump acted recklessly, prosecutors would need to show he was aware of a risk and chose to ignore it. Here, he knew the crowd was armed and angry. And he could see on TV that they were engaging in violence. Death of an officer or member of the mob was a very real risk.

    Of course, he himself was the one who set this risk in motion by summoning the mob and then lighting the fuse with his Ellipse speech urging them to march to the Capitol, but that conduct raises some sticky 1st Amendment concerns. His inaction in stopping the violence does not.

    Cipollone said they would have blood on their hands if they didn’t act to call off the mob. And yet Trump watched the violence for 3 hours

    I think a strong case can be made that Trump committed 5 counts of manslaughter on Jan 6 by recklessly causing the unintended deaths of others.

    Manslaughter should not displace the wider charges of attacking our democracy by engaging in a conspiracy to defraud the United States, obstruct an official proceeding or commit sedition, but should supplement those crimes to address the harms he caused with those deaths.

    DOJ, you up yet?

  106. 106.

    Baud

    @lgerard: I don’t know the full extent of it, but if he was registered to vote in multiple states, they have to figure out which state was the “correct” state, which requires some factual investigation.  That said, I’m sure NC is pursuing this at a leisurely pace.

  107. 107.

    Served

    The ongoing, and worsening, monkeypox outbreak is really disheartening to watch. This is mostly being discussed only in the LGBT community, mostly gay men, right now, unfortunately. The government response has been completely inadequate, especially considering the entire system just went through a crash course in testing and vaccine distribution.

    A few links:

    NYC’s monkeypox vaccine website crashes (again) during launch, leaving many without appointments

    US stumbles in monkeypox response

    Vaccine remains in short supply as US monkeypox cases grow

  108. 108.

    Roger Moore

    @patrick II:

    Why are not Trump and his fellow plotters being called treasonous?

    Treason has a highly specific legal definition (Article III, Section 3 of the US Constitution):

    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

    One would have to stretch the definition of “levying war against them” beyond the bounds of reason to make it fit Trump’s behavior.  He is guilty of violating his oath of office, seditious conspiracy, and I’m sure a bunch of other stuff, but not of treason.

  109. 109.

    Immanentize

    @The Moar You Know: I think Juliette Kayyem has the right take — that what the J6 committee (and Liz C. particularly) are doing is an orchestrated counter-insurgency campaign. They have been working to isolate the leader (Trump) and expose his closest lieutenants (Eastman, Rudy, Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Congress critters, etc.), Giving lots of room for informants, and also demonstrating there is a real paths to redemption (Hutchinson, Cipollone, and the Oath Keeper whose name I’m not gonna try to spell because I fear Zhena).

    I am viewing what they are doing on the Cmmt now through that light. Which is why Dep. AG Monaco was right in saying that Congress was doing what they do and the DOJ is doing what it does.

  110. 110.

    Anonymous At Work

    @Roger Moore: While it has some plausibility, that sort of selective material unravels, especially when texts, public records, or other avenues of data collection are involved.  Even end-to-end encryption systems aren’t infallible; being a white Republican male only protects you from the FBI counterterrorism people, not the NSA.

  111. 111.

    Elizabelle

    @Baud:   North Carolina has a very good Democratic governor, Roy Cooper, who was longtime state attorney general.  Leisurely, I don’t think so.

    The NC legislature is crazy pants, though.  Bathroom bill, etc etc etc.

  112. 112.

    taumaturgo

    @schrodingers_cat: ​

    We don’t need 100% we need a majority.

    Are you sure? If majority matter, we would have 6 liberal judges, not 6 christo fascist appointed SC Judges by the minority.​

  113. 113.

    Baud

    @Elizabelle: Is he responsible for investigations into voter fraud though?  Each state is different, and sometimes the governor doesn’t have a say.  Sometimes not even the AG. Is the current AG a Dem?

  114. 114.

    karen marie

    While CSPAN doesn’t make it easy – even on their youtube site – I’m watching all of the hearings to this point a second time.  I believe I managed to have missed some of them the first time around but even so, given how much material is covered overall – and what we know from later hearings – I’m finding it instructive to watch them all a second time.

    The most efficient way to pull up the actual hearing is to go to youtube and search for “January 6 committee first hearing,” “January 6 committee second hearing,” etc. – spelling out the numbers.  NPR and MSN, for example, have the hearings up as well but I don’t know (and don’t trust) that there is not some amount of useless talking-head material included in those.

  115. 115.

    Scout211

    The right wing media has been planting the seeds of doubt about the 10 year old pregnant victim who had to be transported to Indiana to get an abortion. Like the WSJ declaring “An Abortion Story Too Good to Confirm.”  It’s been really horrible, but that’s just what they do.

    Today in The Columbus Dispatch:

    A Columbus man has been charged with impregnating a 10-year-old Ohio girl, whose travel to Indiana to seek an abortion led to international attention  following the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn Roe v Wade and activation of Ohio’s abortion law.

    Gershon Fuentes, 27, whose last known address was an apartment on Columbus’ Northwest Side, was arrested Tuesday after police say he confessed to raping the child on at least two occasions. He’s since been charged with rape, a felony of the first degree in Ohio.

    Columbus police were made aware of the girl’s pregnancy through a referral by Franklin County Children Services that was made by her mother on June 22, Det. Jeffrey Huhn testified Wednesday morning at Fuentes’ arraignment. On June 30, the girl underwent a medical abortion in Indianapolis, Huhn said.

  116. 116.

    Roger Moore

    @Anonymous At Work:

    I never said I thought what Meadows was doing was guaranteed to work.  IMO it was pretty obvious and unlikely to work.  But I suspect he thought he was being really clever: covering his own ass by pretending to cooperate with the committee while simultaneously burning the people he wanted revenge on and protecting the ones he didn’t.  It might even have worked if he were someone peripheral to the investigation.

  117. 117.

    karen marie

    @Baud:  Does it even matter which is the “correct” state given he registered to vote – and voted – in multiple jurisdictions?

  118. 118.

    Barbara

    @Anonymous At Work: “I alone am worthy!”  Trump seems to have a canny ability to know just how to exploit people like this.  Totally — well mostly — OT, some people thought Charles Manson must have had a magnetic personality to get women to do the horrible things they did for him, but I read a biography of him that made the astute point that Manson used techniques that cultivated people, but especially women, who were pathologically insecure, and extremely suggestible for someone who soothed their feelings of inadequacy — techniques such as, when his already committed “girls” brought new girls home, he would do things like ask them immediately to give him a blow job.  Those who wouldn’t were not inducted into his family, and were sent away unless they had something useful, like a car or money, at least until it ran out.  What kind of person would comply with such a request?

    At any rate, like Manson, Trump seems to draw people to him who are willing to be used, for whatever reason, including their own aspirations to elected office or some other position.  People who aren’t like this are not part of Trump’s world, at least not for long.

  119. 119.

    Betty Cracker

    @SiubhanDuinne: We know “conservative” donors like one of the Publix heirs and also, IIRC, an outfit Ginni Thomas runs and others paid to bus rally-goers to DC. But I don’t recall anything about funding for the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, and that’s where the committee is trying to make a connection with the Trump folks.

    Every hearing has been really strong, IMO, including yesterday’s, but I think that’s the most tenuous connection so far — evidence linking Trump and his operation to the quasi-militia people. There may not be direct evidence.

  122. 122.

    FelonyGovt

    @Scout211: This is odious. The poor girl has been through enough already without her name being revealed, for heaven’s sake.

  124. 124.

    lgerard

    @Baud:

    That is not really the issue.  In NC residency requires that you actually inhabit the address, or if absent, intend to return to that address.  You can live elsewhere temporarily, but you must intend to return.

    He never spent a day there, and had no intention of returning.  the fraud is obvious.

    I don’t think he has ever even made a statement addressing this.

    I this just magically disappears I will be pissed as voting is one of my buttons

  125. 125.

    Betty Cracker

    @Scout211: Thank you — tweeted. You could tell the “just asking questions” people really thought they were onto something.

  127. 127.

    Baud

    @lgerard: I’m not going to argue facts, but I don’t know the details.  I don’t even know how long the investigation had been going on before the April story.  I too hope it doesn’t get swept under the rug.

  128. 128.

    Geminid

    @SiubhanDuinne: Somebody, maybe Marcy Wheeler, posted a communication from a militia member telling others to come to Washington for January 6 if they could, and that expenses would be paid for. I expect the Justice Department to run this story down. The J6 Commitee has put a lot of good information together but they are not staffed to have the reach that the Justice Department has.

  129. 129.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker:

    evidence linking Trump and his operation to the quasi-militia people. There may not be direct evidence.

    Trump does seem to have learned the mob boss strategy of separating oneself from operational actions.

  130. 130.

    dc

    Who cares what the idiot believed or didn’t believe (and speaking of Trump, believe, don’t believe, truth, lie, all are concepts that simply don’t apply)? Trying to overthrow the government is illegal.

  131. 131.

    Baud

    @dc: Correct.  The legal remedy for a fraudulent election is through the courts.  Even for those who think a violent response would be needed if the GOP steals the next election by refusing to certify or count electors, for example, no one thinks that would be a valid legal defense if prosecuted for it by the GOP DOJ (except to the extent the jury engages in nullification).

  133. 133.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @Citizen_X: Boy, Herschmann has provided some great quotes, too.  He’s my favorite witness so far, because of his blunt testimony and clear grasp of the criminal nature of the activities and discussions.  Told Eastman to “get yourself a great fucking criminal defense lawyer, you’re going to need one”.  (Quoted from memory, probably slightly inaccurate.).

  134. 134.

    James E Powell

    Republican senators & congresspersons who led & supported the insurrection — who continue to support Trump & the Big Lie — have not suffered any political consequences.

    This isn’t surprising since most of them represent states or districts where the voters overwhelmingly support Trump, the insurrection, and the end of democracy for the people they don’t like. But not all of them. Some of them are in swingable districts.

    I wonder if the hearings are having any impact on them.

  135. 135.

    SmallAxe

    Georgia on my mind, that’s always been the best case for getting TFG. He’s on frigging tape asking for 11,780 votes, that’s not thinking you were swindled that’s propagating it

  136. 136.

    Geminid

    @Baud: I think that Roger Stone was the link between Trump and the militias. He had Oathkeepers for his own security, and reportedly was initiated into the Proud Boys. Stone wouldn’t have to tell them explicitly that he was giving them Trump’s orders because they knew he spent time with and was trusted by Trump.

    Stone’s situation is different now than four years ago when he risked prison for stonewalling Muellar’s team. He can’t rely on a pardon this time, and he’s under financial pressure with the Justice Department suing him on a $1.5 million IRS claim.

    Stone’s a freak and still might not flip on Trump. Trump kind of winged this project, though, and he may have let other people in on the plot who can directly incriminate him in the militias’ actions.

  137. 137.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @Geminid: I’m starting to get the impression that Meadows isn’t all that bright.  Hiring Cassidy Hutchinson may have been the smartest thing he ever did, in terms of getting competent people to help run the WH

    But giving up a safe House seat to be COS to TFG?  Not bright at all.

  139. 139.

    sdhays

    @Betty Cracker: I’m afraid I don’t understand the reasoning behind the statute of limitations. Or, rather, I think I understand the reasoning and don’t find it particularly compelling. The first hit on Google says:

    One concern that gives rise to statutes of limitations is the simple fact that, after the passage of many years, relevant evidence may well have been lost. If so, it can unfairly hinder either the prosecution or the defense and lead to an unjust verdict.

    To me, that’s an evidence issue, not a reason to just say “bygones”. Plenty of evidence doesn’t degrade over time, and prosecutors decline to prosecute all the time because the evidence is shaky, even when it just happened.

    It is also believed that it is simply unjust to bring a claim against an alleged offender for an offense they committed in the distant past.

    I wonder how widespread this belief actually is. I can accept that perhaps society can decide it’s not worth adjudicating certain civil matters that happened a long time ago. But how is getting away with a crime for a long time, only to later be charged, “unjust”? The offender got to enjoy the fruits of their crime for a long time without consequences.

    Is that’s really all there is behind the concept of the statute of limitations? Perhaps it’s yet another thing ripe for reform.

  140. 140.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Geminid:

    Thank you! I do know the committee’s doing a lot on limited resources (time, money, personnel) and I wasn’t complaining about them, just wondering why we — well, I, anyhow — hadn’t heard anything about funding for the mobs of people, with the exception of that long-ago rumour that Ginni Thomas paid for some buses.

    ETA: I don’t follow Marcy Wheeler. I should probably start paying attention to her.

  141. 141.

    Geminid

    @Betty Cracker: A neighbor, Charlottesville’s own Tim Heaphy, has led the effort as the J6 Commitee’s chief investigator. Heaphy was U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Virginia during the Obama administration.

    Well, Heaphy’s not exactly a neighbor but I’m claiming him anyway!

  142. 142.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Baud:

    TBH, what legitimacy would that system have, then, if the democratic process is corrupted?

  144. 144.

    karen marie

    As for the mystery witness contacted by Trump – I have a guess:  Bill Stepien.

    He was supposed to testify at the 2nd hearing (June 13) but bailed, claiming his wife had gone into labor.

  146. 146.

    docNC

    Mark Meadows going down…sad?  NO.  I can’t wait for him to get what’s coming to him.  What a total disgrace he has been for our state and all the others he’s simultaneously lived in.

    ‘

  148. 148.

    misterpuff

    @SiubhanDuinne: Right about the time of the first public hearing of the Committee (you know way back in the beginning of June), somebody broke down how the work was divided by the Comm. I think there were seven sub teams, each following a different aspect of the event (all the teams were identified by color).

    Team Green was the “Follow The Money” tea. Deep Throat (Mark Felt) was on the money with that one!

    So I expect we’ll hear something along those lines (at least in the report). Hoping that’s how Ginni gets dragged in.

  149. 149.

    Geminid

    @SiubhanDuinne: I hope you have a lot of time. Wheeler tweets like a machine gun when she gets going, and reports on various court cases relating to the Insurrection in granular detail. Search warrants and everything. She publishes longer pieces at her Empty Wheel website.

    Marcy Wheeler used to live in Michigan, but now she works out of Limerick, Ireland.

  150. 150.

    karen marie

    @Geminid:  I’m not going to look it up but I remember reading/hearing a direct quote from him saying something to the effect of “It’s legal to vote in a primary in two different jurisdictions.”

  153. 153.

    Roger Moore

    @A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan):

    But giving up a safe House seat to be COS to TFG? Not bright at all.

    I’m not so sure it was that dumb.  Being COS to the President is a very important position, and Trump came closer than any of us like to admit to holding onto the presidency by election or coup.  Had he succeeded, Meadows would have held onto his very important position and possibly managed to rise in Trump’s orbit.  In contrast, his House seat might have been a safe Republican seat, but there was no guarantee he could have held onto it personally.  He might just as easily have been replaced by a challenger further to his right.

  154. 154.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @sdhays: I think it has to do with how serious the law thinks the offense is.  I was charmed to find out there is no statute of limitations on murder.

  156. 156.

    E.

    @UncleEbeneezer: Forget manslaughter, what Trump did is felony murder. He knew his supporters were armed and he sent them to the protest telling them to fight. He knew what was happening and deaths were foreseeable.

  157. 157.

    PPCLI

    @SmallAxe: It’s not just the demanding votes that should get the TFG convicted, but even more the broad hints that he would have Raffensberger prosecuted if he didn’t play ball.

  160. 160.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @Roger Moore: Sigh.  You make good points.

    BTW, how do you draw a box around a quote from the post you are replying to?  Everyone else seems to know how to do this, but I don’t.

  164. 164.

    Gravenstone

    In this newly formed race to see who can throw whom under the bus most effectively, may they all lose. I want to see many, many charges filed, trials held, and people imprisoned for this shit.

  167. 167.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @zhena gogolia:

    This is a test.  It worked!

    Make the comment in “Text” mode. Put in the quote, then highlight it and hit “b-quote” at the top of the menu.

  168. 168.

    Roger Moore

    @karen marie:

    I’m not going to look it up but I remember reading/hearing a direct quote from him saying something to the effect of “It’s legal to vote in a primary in two different jurisdictions.”

    It might actually be legal because primaries aren’t all at the same time.  For example, you might live in a state with an early primary.  Shortly after voting in that primary, you could move to a state with a late primary.  Depending on the state, you might well be able to meet the residency requirement, register, and vote in the primary in the second state.  It obviously wouldn’t work in the general election, though!

  169. 169.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Looks like this works too :-).  THanks

    Highlight the quote and click on the quote symbol at the top of this box

    ETA: And apparently there’s more than one way

  172. 172.

    Scout211

    @A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan):

    The way I do it is in visual mode. Place the cursor at the beginning of the sentence or paragraph you want to quote, then click the “ icon in the menu at the top of the comment box and the text is now in a quote box.

    If you want to quote several paragraphs at one time inside the same quote box,  it works better to highlight all the areas that you want in the quote box and then click the ” icon.

    ETA for clarity

  173. 173.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @PPCLI: That was Rich Donoghue (former acting deputy attorney general): “You’re an environmental lawyer. How about you go back to your office & we’ll call you when there’s an oil spill.”

    I agree.  Fabulous (and accurate) diss.

    It’s been interesting that (some) lawyers had the clearest insight of anyone involved into what an illegal shitshow the coup plotting was.  Although I guess lawyers should be clear about what is illegal :-).  Then again, the craziest loons (Rudy, Sidney Powell etc.) are lawyers too.  I guess the truth is there were just lots of lawyers involved.  it would appear that the lawyers for the country (AG office, etc.) were the clearest about how terrible this was.

  174. 174.

    Karen

    I read somewhere that they won’t throw TFG into jail because they’re afraid to make him a martyr and that would trigger a Civil War. I hope that’s not true.

  175. 175.

    Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)

    @piratedan: This comment vanished earlier: Should we call them the Coup Club Clan? I think you’re onto something here.

  176. 176.

    karen marie

    @Roger Moore:  But that wasn’t what he was saying.  He specifically said that voting  in a primary in two different places in the same election cycle was not illegal because they’re – to his mind – different contests.  Which is insane, because you can’t vote in state elections for dog catcher in NJ and NC in the same election cycle even though they’re “different contests.”

    Somehow he thinks that because it was a primary, he gets a get-out-of-jail-free card.

  177. 177.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    Big part of the problem is that so many conservatives believe you should “fight” everything to the maximum degree, and there are lawyers who don’t feel constrained by the commands of Civil Rule 11 in going along with it.

    If bogus claimants and shoddy experts were sanctioned more often (and lawyers disciplined), we’d see less of this conduct.

  180. 180.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    Thanks to all who answered my block quote question!  And interesting to see, as with many computer editing tasks, there is more than one way to accomplish it.

  181. 181.

    Geminid

    @A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan): I think Donahue said this at a White House meeting where Trump was considering appointing Clark as Acting Attorney. Resignation threats may have deterred Trump, but the way other Justice Department officials trashed Clark probably had an effect. Trump respected strength, and here the strong men were ridiculing the hapless Clark for the mediocrity he was.

  182. 182.

    Geminid

    @Karen: I don’t think people are going to go to war for Trump. At least not now. The Presidency magnified the man in the eyes of his proponents and also his detractors. I think his hold on people since then has slowly but steadily declined. Like an unstable, toxic radioisotope, it has a half life.

    I suspect that the people prophesying civil war are themselves uncomfortable with the prospect of imprisoning Trump, and are projecting greater perils to justify their own personal fears

    But now I see you are talking about the motivations that some are attributing to AG Garland and his team. All I can say about this is that there are a lot of people spinning all kinds of motivations for Garland, Monaco et al. It’s possible that some may be true. But I don’t think anyone outside Garland’s inner circle could know this, because I don’t think they have been able to build their case yet. They have to flip more people.

    I am reminded of the Gaetz case. Everyone “knows” that Gaetz commited child sex trafficking offenses, and sometimes I see exasperated people asking, “why isn’t Gaetz in jail yet?”

  184. 184.

    Elizabelle

    @karen marie:   Bill Stepien as the mystery witness.

    Excellent guess.  Maybe the baby is in witness protection too.  No news on that front.

    ETA:  Is everyone going into moderation??

  185. 185.

    karensky

    I really want Scott Perry, state Senator, Pennsyltucky to be the fall guy in this scenario as I live in Pennsylvania!

  186. 186.

    Geminid

    @Geminid: I would add that the Justice Department has not been able to build their best case against trump yet, and aren’t going to pull the trigger until they do.

    And as for Gaetz, it’s one thing to “know” something and another to prove it. The judge sentencing Gaetz wingman Joel Greenberg has let prosecutors know he’s not going to keep postponing Greenberg’s sentencing indefinitely and gave August as a deadline. Now Greenberg is asking to be sentenced. He’s in the Orange County, Florida Jail, and it could be he just wants to start doing his time in federal prison. Prosecutors seem to have gathered more witnesses so we may actually see Gaetz indicted, but maybe not until after the election in November.

  187. 187.

    ian

    @jonas: Being registered to vote in 2 places isn’t a great look for a politician, but it happens all the time to everyday people who move (especially across state lines).  The crime would be voting under both registrations.  I have not seen/hear anyone say there exists proof Meadows did that.  There is an allegation that the NC home was a short term rental, but such allegations would require proof that he a) did not live there and b) did indeed vote there.  Whether or not NC has said proof is anyone’s guess.

  189. 189.

    Citizen Alan

    @Scout211:  The Wall Street Journal is a 1000 times worse than The New York Times. And I think The New York Times should be burned to the ground and the earth salted.

  190. 190.

    Geminid

    @Citizen Alan: At least the Wall Street Journal warns you who they’re for with their title. They’re like a rattlesnake, while the New York Times is more like a copperhead.

  191. 191.

    Ruckus

    @Barbara:

    I believe in many instances those involved think they might get some cut of the action. And often there doesn’t have to be any up front concept of this, I believe they see sort of what the person actually is but they might be successful in getting him to pay them well for almost nothing but a little support. (They will sell their souls to the devil for $1.25 and think they got a good deal. They may have, given what they are selling….) In SFB’s case, he sells a lot of racism for a small price and likely his supporters think it is the least they can do.

  192. 192.

    Bill Arnold

    @Citizen Alan:

    The Wall Street Journal is a 1000 times worse than The New York Times.

    It used to be (pre-Murdoch) that the WSJ news pages were reliable, even if voices from the belly of the beast. The editorial/opinion pages were always crazy, and currently if the editorial/opinion page makes a prediction, one should consider making a financial bet in the opposite direction.
    (Several decades ago I had a Marxist(?) friend who subscribed to the WSJ; he said this to me, and after reading it a bit I agreed.)

  193. 193.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Geminid: Criminal defense attorney notes:

    1.  Once an indictment is filed, the government cannot use that indictment to develop more discovery or trial prep.  That’s an illegal use of a grand jury.  So, since the defense can’t use their own grand jury, once an indictment is made, the prosecution can’t keep subpoenaing documents and people to testify. This is why the case needs to be airtight before there is an indictment.

    Think about that with regards to DOJ/Garland and charging Trump.  They only just recently got Eastmans phone, Clark’s phone, cooperation from OK/PB.  Still waiting on Meadows’ texts.  There is a lot of leads to keep digging into.

  194. 194.

    Adrian Lesher

    Say Trump really did and does delusionally believe he won the election. Say this negates the intent of his crime in fomenting an insurrection. Doesn’t this then, in this contex, make him a danger to himself and others and this subject to civil commitment?

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