Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republicans cannot even be trusted with their own money.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

So many bastards, so little time.

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.

It looks like winning debates is a black job!

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

Shut up, hissy kitty!

This isn’t Democrats spending madly. This is government catching up.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

After dobbs, women are no longer free.

Dear Washington Post, you are the darkness now.

This country desperately needs a functioning fourth estate.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

… gradually, and then suddenly.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

Of course you can have champagne before noon. That’s why orange juice was invented.

Well, whatever it is, it’s better than being a Republican.

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

We won’t go back.

You are here: Home / Absent Friends / In Memory of Ivana Trump

In Memory of Ivana Trump

by | 113 Comments

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ETA:  BTW–is it big footing when one applies the large extremity to oneself?

I feel that nil nisi bonum is more of a guideline than a code, but Ivana Trump was a private citizen, and not someone whose passing occasions any joy, or any other emotion, really, bar the self-pity-tinged melancholy at the reminder that the reaper comes for us all.  So I’m just going to note the fact of her passing and wish her family and friends consolation for their loss.

 

But she was someone with a connection to our recent and wretched history, so there’s interest in, not really her legacy, but rather what we don’t and will never know about her insight to the man to whom she was once married.  That made me recall that she already revealed the big one, that her former husband was a raping thug, long, long ago.

The part of the book that caused the most controversy concerns Trump’s divorce from his first wife, Ivana. Hurt obtained a copy of her sworn divorce deposition, from 1990, in which she stated that, the previous year, her husband had raped her in a fit of rage. In Hurt’s account, Trump was furious that a “scalp reduction” operation he’d undergone to eliminate a bald spot had been unexpectedly painful. Ivana had recommended the plastic surgeon. In retaliation, Hurt wrote, Trump yanked out a handful of his wife’s hair, and then forced himself on her sexually. Afterward, according to the book, she spent the night locked in a bedroom, crying; in the morning, Trump asked her, “with menacing casualness, ‘Does it hurt?’ ” Trump has denied both the rape allegation and the suggestion that he had a scalp-reduction procedure. Hurt said that the incident, which is detailed in Ivana’s deposition, was confirmed by two of her friends.

Donald Trump, you may be sure, will not get the benefit (from me, at least)  of “speak no ill…,” before or after he shanks his last drive.

Image: Guercino, Et in arcadia ego, c. 1618

Reader Interactions

113Comments

  4. 4.

    Elizabelle

    Weren’t Trump and his 3 oldest children due to testify in NY State tomorrow? Wonder if they will use Ivana’s death to postpone that. Not an issue with The Donald, but she is the children’s mother.

  5. 5.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Freemark:

    ???

    Ivana just died at age 73. Ivanka, their daughter, doesn’t look particularly alive, but is still animate.

  6. 6.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Elizabelle:

    It is as the mother of Ivanka, DJTJ, and Eric that I most despise her. Yes, TFG was and is an awful parent, but it was Ivana who had almost all the raising of them, both before and after the divorce. I give her a lot of the blame for how they turned out. That said, I’m sure the kids, and their dad too, will milk her death any way they can to manipulate both the legal system and public opinion.

  7. 7.

    Alison Rose

    @Elizabelle: I’m sure they will try to use it as an excuse, even though, God forgive me, I doubt any of them feel an iota of filial affection for her. No one in that family has the capacity for actual love.

  13. 13.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @JPL:

    That’s really vile. As always with anything even slightly TFG-adjacent, I am shocked and horrified but not in the least surprised. In fact, I’d be surprised if he didn’t try to monetise her death.

    ETA: Just saw the fundraising tweet itself. Ugh.

  14. 14.

    Suzanne

    Eh. She supported him for president, even knowing (intimately!) who he is.  Bye felicia.

  18. 18.

    trollhattan

    @Suzanne: Had she said things in 2016 to confirm his horrid ways she might have saved the nation. She did not.

    Heck, dead lady, just endorse Hillary and then go into hiding. But noooo.

  20. 20.

    Roger Moore

    @JPL:

    trump is fundraising off of his first wife’s death. not a lie.

    The Trump campaign will fundraise off his own death. I’m putting down a marker on this one.

  21. 21.

    Shakti

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Yes, I’d feel sorrier for her if her venal traitorous spawn weren’t busy milking the government for all the wealth possible. People who voluntarily married  or reproduced with DJT are not good people, even if they were victims of his.

  23. 23.

    Old Dan and Little Ann

    I’m not bothered or upset when a celebrity happens to die so this registers not.

  25. 25.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Afterward, according to the book, she spent the night locked in a bedroom, crying; in the morning, Trump asked her, “with menacing casualness, ‘Does it hurt?’ ”

    That’s the part of that story that makes it credible. He really is a monster.

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    but it was Ivana who had almost all the raising of them, both before and after the divorce. I give her a lot of the blame for how they turned out

    She put the stories about his emotional abuse of DJTJ–  among others, the time The Beast demanded custody to make a man out of him, she said, “take him”, and he was of course bluffing– in a recent book, presented as if they were cute and endearing.

    There are clips from that recent documentary that juxtapose him talking about what a good father he was, with the LACs trying to sound as if his neglect and indifference are amusing. If they weren’t so awful themselves, one could almost feel sorry for the

    ETA: Heh. “wrong trump” is trending on twitter

  26. 26.

    Shakti

    @Suzanne:  Because he was (is) a national nightmare we will all have to live with for decades to come (even after he’s gone thanks SCOTUS & McConnell), anyone who stood by him to protect their access to wealth versus stopping him from becoming leader of the free* world is horrible, and I don’t care.**

    *with conditions

    ** yes that includes Tiffany Trump, IDGAF

  28. 28.

    trollhattan

    Say WHAT now?

    The Secret Service erased text messages from January 5 and January 6, 2021, according to a letter given to the January 6 committee and reviewed by The Intercept. The letter was originally sent by the Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General to the House and Senate homeland security committees. Though the Secret Service maintains that the text messages were lost as a result of a “device-replacement program,” the letter says the erasure took place shortly after oversight officials requested the agency’s electronic communications.
    The Secret Service did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
    But, the Office of Inspector General letter suggests, key evidence in the form of the Secret Service’s electronic communications may never see the light of day. The Department of Homeland Security — the Secret Service’s parent agency — is subject to oversight from the DHS Office of Inspector General, which had requested records of electronic communications from the Secret Service between January 5 and January 6, 2021, before being informed that they had been erased. It is unclear from the letter whether all of the messages were deleted or just some. Department officials have also pushed back on the oversight office’s records request by arguing that the records must first undergo review by DHS attorneys, which has delayed the process and left unclear if the Secret Service records would ever be produced, according to the letter.
    Asked about the matter, a DHS Office of Inspector General spokesperson told The Intercept, “To preserve the integrity of our work and protect our independence, we do not discuss our ongoing reviews or our communications with Congress.”
    https://theintercept.com/2022/07/14/jan-6-texts-deleted-secret-service/

    “The dog ate them” would sound better. How is nobody’s ass in a sling over this?​
    ETA also @ #19

  31. 31.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @trollhattan: just saw that. That’s an agency in serious need of a house-cleaning. I think the goon who took a leave of absence to work for the trump White House–  Ornato?– is somehow still employed. He helped organize the infamous bible photo stunt

     

    @Shakti: I’ll say in Tiffany’s partial defense I find it bigly credible that she knows about as much about her father as the average news reader

  35. 35.

    Kent

    Ivanka spent her entire adult life profiting off of and living off of the Trump family’s ill-gotten gains.  Fuck her.

  38. 38.

    Ohio Mom

    At my first glance I thought the headline was IvanKa. I admit I am a little disapointed it wasn’t.

    Wonder what she died of, 73 is in tne younger side.

  39. 39.

    jonas

    @trollhattan:How is nobody’s ass in a sling over this?​

    Because law enforcement. Oh, and also Republicans. It was clear the SS were all Trump fanbois. Wouldn’t you be if you got taken to a 5-star resort every weekend and put up at taxpayer expense?

  41. 41.

    JoyceH

    Uh, guys?

    The New York City police are investigating whether Ms. Trump fell down the stairs at her home on Manhattan’s Upper East Side, just off Fifth Avenue near Central Park, according to two law enforcement officials with knowledge of the matter. One of the officials said there was no sign of forced entry at the home, and the death appeared to be accidental. A spokeswoman for the city’s chief medical examiner said the office would be investigating the death.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/14/nyregion/ivana-trump-dead.html

    She fell down the stairs?!

  42. 42.

    lurker

    umm…regarding bigfooting, this seems like a case of stubbing your toe on your own foot … thought I was the only person who could do that…

  43. 43.

    CaseyL

    I just saw that “Ruth Sent Us,” an activist pro-choice group, has been suspended from Twitter after publishing the addresses of the SCOTUS justices.

    My reaction? “Why do I only hear about this after it’s no longer available!!”

    I am totally in favor of those mealy-mouthed Federalist nation-wreckers never getting a moment’s peace ever again in their misbegotten lives.

  46. 46.

    lurker

    @jonas: so one wonders whether staying at trump spots was really all that impressive … for business i have stayed in just about every accommodation other than the absolute top of the line places … the name brand and the quality of the actual property vary for most of them, so I am not sure the SS guys were really getting anything that fancy, although I am sure it was all gold-tone.

    but if they were looking for a guy who validated authoritarian tendencies … yeah, they got that

  47. 47.

    lurker

    @JoyceH: on the one hand, this definitely happens … on the other hand, the family members have depositions scheduled and a death in the family sure is convenient.

    in most situtations, one would not give it a second thought, but this one… sad to think one cannot dismiss it.

  48. 48.

    Another Scott

    @trollhattan: I only clicked the link to the Tweet.  It raises a lot of questions that I do not trust the Intercept reporter to convey accurately.

    Archive.gov – Bulletin 2015-02:

    Bulletin 2015-02
    July 29, 2015

    TO: Heads of Federal Agencies

    SUBJECT: Guidance on Managing Electronic Messages

    EXPIRATION DATE: Expires when revoked or superseded

    1. What is the purpose of this Bulletin?

    This Bulletin provides records management guidance for electronic messages. Specifically, this Bulletin applies to text messaging, chat/instant messaging, messaging functionality in social media tools or applications, voice messaging, and similar forms of electronic messaging systems. There are a wide variety of systems and tools that create electronic messages. This Bulletin will help agencies develop strategies for managing their electronic messages.

    This Bulletin replaces the FAQ About Instant Messaging. This Bulletin does not contain guidance for email. For guidance on email and social media, see Question 11.

    2. What are electronic messages?

    The Federal Records Act was amended in November 2014 and added a new definition for electronic messages at 44 U.S.C. 2911. The law states, “The term ‘electronic messages’ means electronic mail and other electronic messaging systems that are used for purposes of communicating between individuals.”

    Electronic messaging systems allow users to send communications in real-time or for later viewing. They are used to send messages from one account to another account or from one account to many accounts. Many systems also support the use of attachments. They can reside on agency networks and devices, on personal devices, or be hosted by third party providers.

    The following table includes a non-exhaustive list of types of electronic messaging and examples.

    […]

    3. Can electronic messages be Federal records?

    Electronic messages created or received in the course of agency business are Federal records. Like all Federal records, these electronic messages must be scheduled for disposition. Some types of electronic messages, such as email messages, are more likely to contain substantive information and thus are likely to require retention for several years, or even permanently.

    At this time, current business practices make it more likely other types of electronic messages, such as chat and text messages, contain transitory information or information of value for a much shorter period of time. Regardless, agencies must capture and manage these records in compliance with Federal records management laws, regulations, and policies. As use of the electronic messaging systems changes over time, agencies will need to review and update these policies and procedures.

    […]

    As with just about anything to do with the US Government, there are definitions and rules and exceptions and policies. These rules are from 2015, so there shouldn’t be any confusion at the SS about how these messages should have been treated and the SS should have written and audited policies about them.

    There might not be anything nefarious here, e.g. if they are they are officially regarded as not being official “records”, and, on the other hand, there might be. It’s hard to know at the moment – especially from breathless hot-take reporting.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  54. 54.

    Almost Retired

    @JoyceH:  More’s the pity.  Had she survived the trip down the stairs, she could have gotten a lucrative Life Alert sponsorship.

  55. 55.

    Mike in NC

    Pretty safe to assume Ivanka will be forging her mother’s autograph tomorrow, which will be available for purchase from Mar-A-Lardass. The grifting never slows down, much less ends.

  58. 58.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Richard M. Nixon @dick_nixon 1h

    Mrs. Trump’s father was adjacent to Czech state security. Interestingly enough she was allowed to move freely in and out of Czechoslovakia after a sham marriage to gain Austrian citizenship, and living with a defector in Canada.

  61. 61.

    JPL

    @Tom Levenson: I wish Fetterman would send some love to Warnock.   There is no way that his race should be close.  Warnock needs to do some mocking.

  62. 62.

    JPL

    @JPL: Warnock could even run an ad stating that Herschel only moved here, because we provide our citizens with heat in the winter, and air conditioning in the summer.

  63. 63.

    HeleninEire

    The biggest thing for me about that divorce was how it made me realize how full of shit the media is. I’m kinda embarrassed that I was 30…but. Ivana and Donald were huge media celebrities in NYC.  Liz Smith (remember her, kids?) She was a huge gossip columnist at the NY Daily News. One would think (when one is dumb) that they have nothing to do with the columnists who are writing about them.

    LOL. I was dumb. BIG picture in the NY Post of Liz Smith when Marla made her “best sex I’ve ever had” declaration trying to get Ivana past the paparazzi.

    My bad….

  65. 65.

    Almost Retired

    @HeleninEire:  I miss the days when Trump was mostly a New York phenomena (if that’s the word).  I didn’t really get a lot of the jokes about him in Spy magazine.  At one point, about 30 years ago, he was bloviating about building a 100 story building at the Ambassador Hotel site (where RFK was assassinated) – which at the time was a fairly shitty neighborhood – but he eventually went away.  And then…the fucking Apprentice.  May Mark Burnett burn in hell for all eternity.

  68. 68.

    HeleninEire

    @Baud: I was. But we got good news about Mary today. They switched up her meds last time I was here. Nothing. They switched them again yesterday and it looks like she may be back to her own gorgeous self. I am not gonna celebrate for at least a week but these new meds be the answer.

  72. 72.

    Roger Moore

    @Another Scott:

    At least according to the reporting, the records were deleted after the committee requested them, which is absolutely not allowed.  Once the records have been requested, they are evidence and cannot be destroyed no matter what your retention policy.  Destruction of evidence is a very serious matter, and if the reporting is correct the people involved need to be prosecuted.

  74. 74.

    Sure Lurkalot

    OT

    What a wonderful world it will be without OB-GYNs. After a few multi-year jail sentences, who would not seek another specialty?

    The American Board of Obstetrics and Gynecology will hold a virtual certification exam in the fall in part due to concerns for prospective OB-GYNs’ safety following the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn Roe v. Wade.

    About a thousand future OB-GYNs would have had to travel to Texas in the fall to take their board certification exam, which advocates worried could increase their risk of being prosecuted under the state’s strict anti-abortion law.

    Indiana’s AG has sent a letter to the governor, suggesting he will criminally prosecute the doctor who helped get the 10yr old rape victim an abortion on grounds of failing to report a termination of pregnancy report. Story from @AliceOllstein

  76. 76.

    Dangerman

    @Almost Retired:

    I don’t think TFG’s base watched The Apprentice. Required thinking (not their strong suit).

    No, Trump gave them permission to wave their freak flags loud and proud; no more living under rocks for them.

  78. 78.

    David ☘The Establishment☘ Koch

    Ivana pushed down a staircase has a certain Gloria Swanson and Richard Widmark film noir quality.

  80. 80.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @HeleninEire: That is great news. My good friend’s daughter is dissociative and bipolar and often a change of meds, sometimes even going back to one used before, has often been helpful.

  81. 81.

    Mike in NC

    She gave him the stupid nickname “The Donald”, which could be printed in newspapers and magazines. “The Asshole”, on the other hand…

  87. 87.

    Ohio Mom

    @HeleninEire: IIRC, meds were at the root of the crisis Mary had a few years ago. Glad to hear it’s in the process of being sorted out. I’ll cross fingers and toes for Mary.

    Ohio Son takes a couple of psychotropic meds for anxiety, tics and OCD and it was torture over several years getting the mix right. Ultimately it’s all guesswork in the part of the doctor, you just have to hope they are good at guessing. And then you have to hope your loved one’s internal chemistry doesn’t change in a way that forces you to start all over again.

    ETA: I know you know all that, HeleninErie, that’s for people who don’t.

  88. 88.

    HumboldtBlue

    I saw Trump humiliate Ivana. I listened to him put her down in front of others, once to the point of tears. I listened to him complaining about her, to the extent of cursing her out. In my opinion, of course, he raped her. I watched Ivana fall apart in her office. I liked her.

  89. 89.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Almost Retired:
    At one point, about 30 years ago, he was bloviating about building a 100 story building at the Ambassador Hotel site.

    My city too:

    Back in 2006, Donald Trump — the New York developer then best known for his yellow pompadour and starring role on The Apprentice — had just seen his $1 billion bid to redevelop Union Station shot down (his team’s six-paragraph proposal was considered “non-responsive” to the application requirements), but he didn’t give up on the Mile High City. Instead, Trump came back with a plan to construct the tallest building in town, one filled with a luxury hotel and condos, right at the corner of 18th Avenue and Sherman Street.

    That second project failed to launch too. My spouse worked for the firm that was going to do the architecture. Besides the boss and a few real estate sycos, no one wanted near Trump.

  90. 90.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Almost Retired: I was in Chicago a couple months ago and picked up a glossy real estate magazine to look at the fancy places, one of them was listed as 400 N Wabash with spectacular river views! and I thought, Wabash and the river, isn’t that…. It was. No mention of the big sign on the front of the building in the listing. From what I understand, that whole building has been a big loser for The Beast. The apartments sell for less per square foot than others in that neighborhood, and the retail spaces are/were mostly unoccupied (I guess it’s been a while since I read that). Not sure about the hotel.

  94. 94.

    Almost Retired

    @Sure Lurkalot: I didn’t know Trump plagued Denver as well.  He came back to Los Angeles some years later, and developed Trump National Golf Club near me.  It involved lots of pointless litigation, the bullying of suburban city council members, and threats to neighbors, but it eventually got built.

    He had to finance the development of a massive park with beautiful hiking trails surrounding the golf course (and no separation fences).  Without a fence, some people (ahem….cough….) occasionally take their dogs up there for a walk and let them pee on the fairways.

    I think on an early Apprentice cycle, the winner got to choose between working on this LA project and the Trump Tower in Chicago, referenced by Jim, Foolish Literalist above.  Or maybe that was two separate seasons.   Anyway, fuck Mark Burnett.  It’s worth saying again.

  95. 95.

    LeftCoastYankee

    No evidence of foul play, but there was “Erak wa heer,” scrawled on the marble floor in crayon.

  96. 96.

    Another Scott

    @Roger Moore: Yes, it might be intentional destruction of evidence.  Yes, it might be very serious.  But we really don’t know yet.

    I’m reminded of the “22 million e-mails” that were supposedly intentionally destroyed in the W administration.  They were eventually found in various backups.

    To be clear – many things can simultaneously be true. I don’t know what, if anything, to think yet about these deletions. I do know, though, that The Secret Service did not do any deletions. A person did. That person either did so following the SS Official Records policies or broke those policies. The Committee should interview that person about their Official Records policies, etc., and figure out whether there was an oversight (“I never heard anything about any subpoena and was just following the standard timeline/policy…”) or if there was something nefarious.

    And the Committee should get any needed backups/alternatives (via subpoenas if necessary).

    tl;dr – Initial reports are often wrong in important ways.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  98. 98.

    David ☘The Establishment☘ Koch

    @zhena gogolia: She wasnt, but she’s the pinnacle in self-important, has-been performances, which is what the Ivana roll calls for.

  99. 99.

    Almost Retired

    @Almost Retired: Arrrgh, the edit button is my friend.  I meant Trump was forced to build hiking trails as part of the eventual deal to develop the property, not that he used the hiking trails to finance a golf course.  Which would be utterly nonsensical, but you were all to polite to point that out.

  102. 102.

    Roger Moore

    @WaterGirl:

    I don’t his first name, or maybe that’s his wife’s name.

    His name.  Mehmet is the Turkish form of Muhammad.  I assume calling him by his first name as much as possible is part of the plan, since it reminds people who don’t like them weird furriners that he is one.

  103. 103.

    Roger Moore

    @Another Scott:

    I agree that initial reporting can be incorrect, which is why I was careful to qualify my statement with a “if the reporting is correct”.  That said, it is the responsibility of the lawyers who get this kind of request to make sure the records are not destroyed.  Maybe the people who destroyed the records didn’t get the message, but in that case it’s the lawyers whose job it was to make sure the records were preserved who are in trouble.  Again, assuming the reporting is correct and the messages were destroyed after the committee requested them, something went wrong and the responsible parties should be in hot water.

    Probably more important, the record request was entirely foreseeable.  The attack on the capitol was serious enough the President was impeached over it, and there was immediate discussion of various investigations.  Anyone who knows anything about this kind of thing should have been preserving records from the time around January 6th in anticipation of all those investigators requesting them.  That makes me much more suspicious than I would ordinarily be.  That (according to the reporting) the records were destroyed shortly after they were requested is suspicious as hell.

  104. 104.

    J R in WV

    @Kent: ​

    Ivanka spent her entire adult life profiting off of and living off of the Trump family’s ill-gotten gains. Fuck her.

    You go ahead… too much like a plastic love doll for me !! Yuck! Can she even laugh? I doubt it.

  106. 106.

    docNC

    1. Who cares about a Czech “model”?
    2. Do we have to care when Melania bites it too?
    3. Models and hookers…some overlap
  109. 109.

    J R in WV

    If electronic messages or any other electronic data possessed by the Secret Service disappeared moments after being requested by an investigatory agency of the Federal Government, people should already be involved in interviews with federal prosecutors. Especially in these circumstances.

    Anyone involved with this situation who destroyed data or otherwise interfered with a government investigation of an attempt to overthrow the government should be incarcerated while that high crime is investigated. These people need to know that they will suffer for this illegal attempt to corrupt an election.

    I’ll stop now. Goofing on Ivanka was fun, this shit is NOT.

  110. 110.

    prostratedragon

    “A spokeswoman for the city’s chief medical examiner said the office would be investigating the death.”

    Aha. I had wondered what was meant by “found,” and thinking if she were my mother I’d want an investigation.

  111. 111.

    MomSense

    Ding dong the witch is dead.  Ivana destroyed the livelihood and life of a family who were dear friends of my family.  V took a job as the assistant General Manager of the Plaza shortly after she bought it.  He had an impressive resume at some of the best hotels in the world (my stepdad worked with him at another hotel in NYC). He was also an incredibly handsome man. She sexually harassed him mercilessly.  He went through disgusting, dehumanizing abuse.  He considered legal action but her attorneys basically told his attorney that they would destroy his reputation, make his life even more miserable and bankrupt him.  He and his wife had two elementary school age children and an infant.  They ended up moving to SC and he took a job in an unrelated field.  He was completely broken after what he went through.

    Ivana makes me wish there were a hell just so she could suffer for eternity.  She was a fucking disgrace.

    They all came and stayed with us in Maine for awhile.  We ended up adopting their dog because they couldn’t take him with their lives in such turmoil.  The story doesn’t end well.  I feel enraged just thinking about it again.

  112. 112.

    sab

    @MomSense: Can’t say it is nice to hear this, because it isn’t. But good to hear some justification of my visceral loathing of her. She couldn’t have chosen to marry him knowing what he was without beibg in many ways like him.

    And then there are the kids, who were raised by gim not ger.

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