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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Pour One Out For Liz

Pour One Out For Liz

by @heymistermix.com|  July 25, 20228:57 am| 139 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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Big Liz Cheney story this weekend from the AP:

And while her allies may be optimistic about her long-term future, Cheney would certainly like to avoid a blowout loss next month in her home state.

It won’t be easy.

Facing consistent and credible death threats, she has been forced to abandon traditional retail campaigning, trading public rallies and town halls for private events where her presence is often revealed to the public only after their conclusion, if at all.

She has essentially been excommunicated by the Wyoming Republican Party, which voted last year to censure Cheney before deciding to stop recognizing her as a Republican altogether. Local GOP offices offer yard signs for Hageman and many other Republicans on the ballot but not Cheney.

Left with few options, she has turned to Democrats for help. Her campaign website now features a link to a form allowing voters to change their party affiliation to Republican to participate in the Republican primary.

Just a reminder that Liz was never that popular or politically successful in her “home state” because she lacks the attribute that every Wyoming politician needs to succeed: she’s not a native. She was born in Madison, WI, attended Colorado College for undergrad (not U Dub) and only spent a short part of her childhood in Casper when Dick was in Congress. She graduated from MacLean, VA high school, and got her JD from the University of Chicago. Those are not the credentials of a successful Wyoming politician. (And before you throw John Barasso back at me, note that the guy grew up and was educated in the East, but he put in ~20 years of practice in Casper before becoming a Senator, and Barasshole first got the seat by appointment when Craig Thomas died. Cheney never lived in the state for an extended period of time.)

I’ve detailed the fail parade that was her first campaign for Senate, here, here and here. It’s notable that supposed local political powerhouse Liz didn’t even try to challenge dumb-as-shit Cynthia Lummis when Lummox ran for Senate in 2020. That’s because, like her dad, she used the state as a launching pad for what would have been a DC-centric insider career, if Trump hadn’t come along.

So, while I do appreciate Liz’ work on the 1/6 committee, her primary difficulties aren’t a big surprise. I’m also uber-skeptical that Wyoming Democrats willing to switch parties (a small percentage of a small number) will make a difference.

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Reader Interactions

139Comments

  1. 1.

    FledtheUS

    July 25, 2022 at 9:06 am

    I non-ironically refer to Liz as “spawn of satan” and keep reminding myself she is still a Republican. She is doing good on the committee, but not because she believes in anything other than Liz.

  2. 2.

    artem1s

    July 25, 2022 at 9:06 am

    Hey, if she wants to disavow her party platform and spend the rest of her life carpetbagging from state to state challenging DINOs and RINOs that the Dems want to light a fire under or get out of office, I’d be all for that. Be a perpetual third party threat on behalf of the democracy and Constitution she claims she wants to protect. Great way for her to actually atone for her sins and the sins of her father.
    No way should the Dems ever let her win a seat that would put the Speaker’s seat in reach of her or the GOP though.

  3. 3.

    OzarkHillbilly

    July 25, 2022 at 9:08 am

    Pour One Out For Liz

    As good a reason as any other to start drinking at… 8:08 in the morning.

  4. 4.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    July 25, 2022 at 9:09 am

    Her work in the hearings may be having a negative effect on her in WY, despite positive effect elsewhere. Yesterday, I was shocked when my group of secret Ds was drinking on the patio, and one couple said they might vote for Cheney. Someone said if she ran for what office with what party, and they said just anything. At which point, I said no. The woman said but– and I interrupted and said no again, adding if you need someone to shoot someone in the face for you, Liz is your girl. Otherwise, no. At that point, the woman stopped talking about it. I suppose I was rude. I can’t always tell

  5. 5.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    July 25, 2022 at 9:21 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Someone said if she ran for what office with what party, and they said just anything.

    a good question, and the fact that it flew over the temporary Cheney’s fans heads says a lot. Are they gonna move to Wyoming? Or if LC carpet-bags (home) to Virginia? I appreciate her work on the committee, her ability to hate the right people (this time), but she’s a hard-right social conservative Neo-con who is probably quite happy with the current Supreme Court

    I wonder if Bloomberg is fantasizing about bankrolling some “unity ticket”, and who they think could balance out Dick Jr in the second spot.

  6. 6.

    Ken

    July 25, 2022 at 9:26 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I wonder if Bloomberg is fantasizing about bankrolling some “unity ticket”, and who they think could balance out Dick Jr in the second spot.

    Paul Ryan has been tanning and resting for years, hoping someone would ask that question.

  7. 7.

    Danielx

    July 25, 2022 at 9:28 am

    Speaking of blowouts, anybody heard from Cole?

  8. 8.

    bbleh

    July 25, 2022 at 9:31 am

    Root for injuries!

  9. 9.

    bbleh

    July 25, 2022 at 9:31 am

    @Ken: I heard he’s down to a 2:50 marathon!

  10. 10.

    TS

    July 25, 2022 at 9:32 am

    Does TFG still have such a hold on republicans that they are going to install their mini dictator as ruler of the United States of America. It would seem after spending all of the 20th century fighting to preserve democracy around the world, they would give it up for someone who will have millions go visit his grave for the obvious reason.

  11. 11.

    JML

    July 25, 2022 at 9:33 am

    @Ken: That’s hardly the “unity” ticket someone like Bloomberg and his ilk in the “can’t we just get along” group that wants things to go back to the 80’s and frequently means pushing down people of color, trying to pretend that trans folk don’t exist again (they don’t mind the gays so much so long as they’re not getting too uppity). That’s just an old school 90’s GOP ticket.

    No unity BS. The GOP is flailing and could potentially have a massive rift. When your opponent is drowning, throw them an anchor. They must be utterly broken, then maybe, maybe we can have a sane second party again.

  12. 12.

    Cameron

    July 25, 2022 at 9:38 am

    @Danielx: It’s still a bit early in the day for Fecal Update, don’t you think?

  13. 13.

    SFAW

    July 25, 2022 at 9:40 am

    @JML: ​
     

    They must be utterly broken, then maybe, maybe we can have a sane second party again.

    That’s much less likely than the Democrat Party being declared a Terrist Group, and hunted down accordingly, if/when the Rs take over.

  14. 14.

    Betty Cracker

    July 25, 2022 at 9:40 am

    Cheney’s political views are appalling (except on marriage equality — she came around on that), and I’d vote for any elected Democrat over Cheney, even someone terrible like Rep. Cuellar. But I give Cheney full credit for opposing the Trump coup. It would have been easy to go along with the rest of the cowards and retain her leadership position in the caucus, but she didn’t. That took courage and integrity. Period.

  15. 15.

    Danielx

    July 25, 2022 at 9:40 am

    @Cameron:

    This is Balloon Juice, never too early for critical news.

  16. 16.

    coin operated

    July 25, 2022 at 9:41 am

    @Cameron:

    It’s still a bit early in the day for Fecal Update, don’t you think?

    If you’ve spent any time in the nursing field, you’d know that anytime is a good time for a fecal update….

  17. 17.

    Immanentize

    July 25, 2022 at 9:41 am

    Hmmm, that’s interesting, I am certain that I had the first comment on this thread commenting on the Monday morning big footing. But it oddly disappeared!

  18. 18.

    Ken

    July 25, 2022 at 9:42 am

    @Cameron: It’s always too early in the day for that.

  19. 19.

    OzarkHillbilly

    July 25, 2022 at 9:46 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I suppose I was rude. I can’t always tell

    What you were, was blunt. Some people take that as rude but that is on them if they do.

  20. 20.

    Jerzy Russian

    July 25, 2022 at 9:52 am

    @JML:

     

    When your opponent is drowning, throw them an anchor.

    I think we should throw them an anvil. However, I concede that reasonable people can disagree on this point.

  21. 21.

    Matt McIrvin

    July 25, 2022 at 9:53 am

    @TS: Right now, most Republicans actually don’t seem to want Trump to be the nominee. Currently I think they’ll give it to DeSantis as “Trump, but smarter and more focused on sticking it to the libs”.

  22. 22.

    O. Felix Culpa

    July 25, 2022 at 9:54 am

    @Betty Cracker:  Yes.

  23. 23.

    The Moar You Know

    July 25, 2022 at 9:56 am

    Hey, credit where credit is due, but if I were so unfortunate as to be a Wyoming Democrat, I wouldn’t vote for her.  No fucking way.  Her dad tried to take over the country just as surely as Trump did, he was just far more polite about it.

  24. 24.

    JML

    July 25, 2022 at 9:59 am

    @Jerzy Russian: I’m not fussy about the traditionally heavy object to be thrown. Anvil. Anchor. Dump Truck. Space Shuttle.

  25. 25.

    VOR

    July 25, 2022 at 10:01 am

    @Betty Cracker: Cheney’s political views are appalling (except on marriage equality — she came around on that), and I’d vote for any elected Democrat over Cheney, even someone terrible like Rep. Cuellar. But I give Cheney full credit for opposing the Trump coup. It would have been easy to go along with the rest of the cowards and retain her leadership position in the caucus, but she didn’t. That took courage and integrity. Period.

    Liz Cheney’s sister Mary is in a same-sex marriage. In 2013 there was a rift between the two when Liz publicly came out against same-sex marriage during her Senate campaign. Liz later (2021) publicly stated she had changed her mind and voted for the 2022 Respect for Marriage act.

    Agree, she could have easily gone with the TFG camp but decided to put the country first. You could chalk it up to an attempt to position as a non-Trump conservative, but fact is she has been effective on the J6 committee public hearings.

  26. 26.

    dww44

    July 25, 2022 at 10:01 am

    @FledtheUS: I disagree.  She is a principled supporter of our representative democracy and is to be applauded for that, particularly because she is a lifelong Republican.  One doesn’t have to like her support of policies which are anathema to Democrats, but she is a person with whom we can cross the partisan divide and do what’s best for the country. At this present juncture that is what is important…. finding common ground with members of the GOP who are unafraid of standing up to the Big Lie.  There are all too few of them.

  27. 27.

    Jerzy Russian

    July 25, 2022 at 10:02 am

    @Betty Cracker:

     

    But I give Cheney full credit for opposing the Trump coup. It would have been easy to go along with the rest of the cowards and retain her leadership position in the caucus, but she didn’t. That took courage and integrity. Period.

    Yes agreed.

    The sad/scary thing is that she is by far the sanest GQP candidate for Wyoming’s Congressional seat. I never thought the day would come when I am rooting for the spawn of Richard B. “Penis” Cheney.

  28. 28.

    Matt McIrvin

    July 25, 2022 at 10:02 am

    @JML: The “unity ticket” *is* a 90s GOP ticket. The “meet in the middle” shtick always involves ignoring the compromises that Democrats already make and have made, and pretending that they are as extremist as Republicans.

  29. 29.

    zhena gogolia

    July 25, 2022 at 10:03 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Democrats are such idiots sometimes.

  30. 30.

    satby

    July 25, 2022 at 10:04 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: I am perpetually considered rude.

    And sometimes I even intend it.

  31. 31.

    Baud

    July 25, 2022 at 10:05 am

    @zhena gogolia:

    Bunch of insecure motherfuckers.  I hate it so much.

  32. 32.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    July 25, 2022 at 10:06 am

    @Jerzy Russian: Did you see that clip of the R primary debate in WY? It was Liz vs. a bunch of lunatics. The kind who claim Dr. Fauci is the most corrupt person in DC

  33. 33.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    July 25, 2022 at 10:07 am

    If I lived in Wyoming, I’d cross over and vote for Cheney. The Democrat there has no chance, and a Republican that believes in Democracy is better than whoever the Wyoming GOP will puke up to challenge her.  Outside of that, I would mostly be unwilling to vote for her. I said mostly, because there are political positions I would seriously consider her for, like any attorney general role. She has proven to me she is very adept at going after criminals.

  34. 34.

    CaseyL

    July 25, 2022 at 10:07 am

    @zhena gogolia: We like Shiny New Objects and make heroes of them just as much as the MSM, unfortunately.

  35. 35.

    Geminid

    July 25, 2022 at 10:08 am

    @Matt McIrvin: DeSantis also is not as lazy and narcissistic as trump.

  36. 36.

    OzarkHillbilly

    July 25, 2022 at 10:09 am

    @satby: “I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell.”

    – Harry S Truman

  37. 37.

    zhena gogolia

    July 25, 2022 at 10:10 am

    @CaseyL: And dump on our own.

    I was lying in bed this morning remembering that petulant asshole trying to film a 3-minute video, and I remembered that Biden’s approval ratings are worse than his, and I said to my husband, “There’s no hope for America.” I don’t usually like to be like that. Maybe it’s my slow hip recovery that’s got me down.

  38. 38.

    Matt McIrvin

    July 25, 2022 at 10:11 am

    @CaseyL: The Democrats I know who don’t want Biden to run again are behind either Harris or, if they don’t like Harris, Pete Buttigieg. They’re sort of casting about for a hero. I am deeply skeptical that either of those could win in the current environment but I’m also worried that the complainers are not thinking about the effects of their words and what kind of influence campaign they might be buying into.

  39. 39.

    zhena gogolia

    July 25, 2022 at 10:12 am

    @CaseyL: I will admit that I’ve been pleasantly surprised by L. Cheney. I don’t want to vote for her (although if I were a Democrat in WY I would), but she and Kinzinger are the type of Republicans we need. They seem like people who deserve to be in the US Congress, unlike every other Republican now serving, bar none.

  40. 40.

    zhena gogolia

    July 25, 2022 at 10:12 am

    @Matt McIrvin: Bingo.

    I sense a Russian hand behind a lot of this, as well as the whingeing about Garland.

  41. 41.

    jnfr

    July 25, 2022 at 10:13 am

    I don’t vote for Republicans, period. I sincerely believe that they want to see me and all people like me dead (feminists, queers, creative people, anyone who believes in and tries to create a people-powered, multicultural society). They will not allow us to live our lives freely, in peace. I won’t vote for my own destruction.

  42. 42.

    Nicole

    July 25, 2022 at 10:13 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Nah, you did the right thing.  Back in 2000, I expressed some positive feelings about John McCain during the primaries and an older, wiser woman shut me down pretty quick.  The media is so desperate to find a principled Republican they’ll spin anyone.  My friend was right, and so were you.

  43. 43.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    July 25, 2022 at 10:16 am

    @Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I read that Liz Cheney opposed legal representation for Guantanamo prisoners. I can’t find a source now, so I’m not sure that’s true.

  44. 44.

    Geminid

    July 25, 2022 at 10:18 am

    @Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I read that a lot of Wyoming Democrats and independents register as Republicans because that party’s primaries are the only game in town. Reregistering day-of-primary is allowed also.

    South Carolina does not register by party so primaries there are truly open. Tom Rice (SC-7) was another Impeacher, a seven term Rep. with a trump endorsed challenger. Rice did not even come close in last month’s primary there. I thought that did not bode well for Cheney.

    Impeacher Peter Meijer faces a trump endorsed challenger in his western Michigan district (maybe tomorrow?). That will provide another data point as to Republican tolerance of trump impeachers (four are retiring).

  45. 45.

    germy shoemangler

    July 25, 2022 at 10:19 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    The conservative group led by Liz Cheney is having to defend itself against criticism from fellow conservatives who say that an ad attacking Attorney General Eric Holder is unfair.

    The ad, launched by Keep America Safe, an advocacy group led by Cheney, criticizes Holder for not disclosing details about Justice Department lawyers who have previously defended alleged terrorists.

    The video, which surfaced last week, brands the lawyers as the “Al Qaeda 7” and ridicules the Justice Department as the “Department of Jihad.” The narrator questions, “Who are these government officials?…Whose values do they share?”

    Justice Department spokesman Matthew Miller has called it “offensive” that the patriotism of agency lawyers is questioned by Cheney’s group.

    But a growing chorus of former Bush administration officials, including former Attorney General Michael Mukasey, also say the video goes too far. Mukasey called the ad’s accusations “shoddy and dangerous.”

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/liz-cheney-group-defends-attack-holder-justice-department/story?id=10065623

  46. 46.

    Jerzy Russian

    July 25, 2022 at 10:20 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:   Yes, I saw that clip.  Everyone on that stage except Cheney was approaching the “wear your underwear on the outside” level.

  47. 47.

    Ohio Mom

    July 25, 2022 at 10:27 am

    I drove through Wyoming once, it was breathtakingly beautiful.

    Have no desire to ever go back and I’m glad as anything I don’t live there because I would be tempted to switch parties in the primary to reward Cheney and I couldn’t live with myself if I did.

    In one way, it would be a wash, Cheney would vote the same as any Republican on almost every issue. On the other hand, she has big ambitions and I don’t want any responsibility for her possibly attaining them.

  48. 48.

    Redshift

    July 25, 2022 at 10:28 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Or if LC carpet-bags (home) to Virginia?

    Hmm, in one hand, all of the current Republicans in Congress from Virginia are demonstrably worse than her. But in the other, she’s no more a native in those areas than in Wyoming, and the base there are Trump cult members, so it wouldn’t help anyway.

  49. 49.

    Scout211

    July 25, 2022 at 10:29 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    Cheney’s political views are appalling (except on marriage equality — she came around on that),

    Her original no vote was especially appalling since her sister is gay and both of her parents were pro marriage equality at the time.

    On the positive side, she voted with the Dems for codifying the right to birth control. Only 8 Republicans voted yea.  

    https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2022385

    Maybe she is trying to make herself into a moderate these days. Who knows. Who cares.  (Not me).

  50. 50.

    eclare

    July 25, 2022 at 10:33 am

    @Scout211:   Yes, I saw how she voted on birth control.  It’s disgusting that in 2022 we cheer Republicans who vote that women should have access to birth control, but here we are.

  51. 51.

    frosty

    July 25, 2022 at 10:38 am

    @Jerzy Russian: As a practical matter, anchors are generally easier than anvils to throw.

  52. 52.

    Jinchi

    July 25, 2022 at 10:38 am

    @Betty Cracker: But I give Cheney full credit for opposing the Trump coup. It would have been easy to go along with the rest of the cowards and retain her leadership position in the caucus, but she didn’t.

    I always assumed that the Republican party would react to Trump the way Cheney did in the end. Which is to say, vote overwhelmingly  for their shared agenda, but smack him down hard any time he edged towards his obvious authoritarian fantasies.

    Everyone knew Trump was a con man who would happily betray anyone up to and including his own family. He bankrupted or defrauded anyone who did business with him. Even before he took office, the guy was openly soliciting bribes from foreign nationals and would have been a willing puppet for Putin. If he’d won re-election he would have purged most of the sitting Republican members of Congress in hopes of replacing them with his own hand picked stooges. You don’t want someone like that controlling all the levers of power.

    The party position wasn’t just cowardice, it was stupidity.​​​

  53. 53.

    Miss Bianca

    July 25, 2022 at 10:39 am

    Eh. If I lived in Wyoming as a Dem, I’d consider the switch to vote for her in the primary. However, I imagine that Wyoming Democrats are a tiny fraction of an already tiny population.

  54. 54.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    July 25, 2022 at 10:44 am

    @Nicole:

    Back in 2000, I expressed some positive feelings about John McCain during the primaries and an older, wiser woman shut me down pretty quick.

    I yield to no one in my belief that John McCain was a wildly, even dangerously overrated, war-mongering mediocrity, but like Liz, he knew how to hate, and if he hadn’t died when he did, the last few years might have been a bit different. (everybody sees the words “might have been”, right?)

  55. 55.

    Geminid

    July 25, 2022 at 10:52 am

    @Miss Bianca: Pew Rearch did some interesting polling of voter self-identification in Wyoming. I think that Republican was in the mid 40s percentage wise, Demorat were in the low 30s, and independents were mid 20s. Registration figures are much more lopsided.

  56. 56.

    Omnes Omnibus

    July 25, 2022 at 10:53 am

    It is possible to think that someone may be a believer in our system of government, a courageous person, and a vicious political in-fighter while also recognizing that most of her political views are horrific and therefore have no interest in ever voting for her.

  57. 57.

    Betty Cracker

    July 25, 2022 at 10:55 am

    @Jinchi: If not for Trump, maybe the GOP wouldn’t have clowns like Walker, Vance, Oz, etc., putting seats where Republicans should have a major advantage this fall in play. But on the other hand, if Republicans had turned on Trump after 1/6, he wouldn’t have just gone away. Maybe he still endorses those people, and maybe they still win their primaries? I don’t know. If retaining and amassing power is the goal (rather than preserving democracy, for example), maybe placating Tangerine Baal isn’t the dumbest play.

  58. 58.

    Skepticat

    July 25, 2022 at 10:57 am

    @Betty Cracker: This.

  59. 59.

    trollhattan

    July 25, 2022 at 10:58 am

    Do wonder, between Monday coffees 1 and 2, whether a Cheney leopard can change her spots? She now has had a frontrow seat to the Trump-Era Republican Party for six+ years and while obviously learning how insane and deeply corrupt they have become, has she also reconsidered some other of her automatic, parentally approved political positions?

    Is there a tax cut she would not cherish? Is there a war she would not support? Does Obamacare remain the worst stain on America since the Dodgers moved to LA?

    Call it a mild curiosity, not a hope she’ll become a Democrat. In the meantime, I’ll continue applauding every Trump minion she uses for batting practice while on the committee.

  60. 60.

    RaflW

    July 25, 2022 at 11:00 am

    @TS: “after spending all of the 20th century fighting to preserve democracy access to commercial markets & exploitable natural resources around the world” now it turns out the GOP are all still deeply invested in white guys finishing first

    Liz would like to be a white gal finishing first (ie: being Potus). But I don’t think she’s gonna make it. Losing WY, however, will be a blip on that possible trajectory. In fact it would open her calendar for a lot more campaigning.

  61. 61.

    Geminid

    July 25, 2022 at 11:01 am

    @Betty Cracker: Republicans think that control of the House and maybe the Senate are within their grasp, and they are desperate to achieve this. They would do a lot to appease trump, but he’s so fickle no one knows how. It’s kind of fun to watch.

  62. 62.

    kindness

    July 25, 2022 at 11:02 am

    @dww44: but she is a person with whom we can cross the partisan divide and do what’s best for the country.

    Liz vote with Trump 92% of her votes.  I wouldn’t call 8% crossing the aisle.

  63. 63.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    July 25, 2022 at 11:04 am

    @Geminid: Last week Ari Fleischer, in one of the more transparent attempts to manipulate trump through his own megalomania, suggested on twitter that it would be “smart” if trump announced his ’24 campaign on the anniversary of 1/6, so desperate are they to keep his profile as low as possible over the next few months

    Ari Fleischer @AriFleischer

    If Trump runs, the smart move is for him to declare on 1/6/23. The one-year anniversary of the riot at the Capitol will be about him anyway, so he might as well seize the day and make it his.
    Declaring prior to this November would be a big mistake.

  64. 64.

    Cameron

    July 25, 2022 at 11:09 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Maybe I’m screwing up basic math, but I thought 1/6/23 would be the two-year anniversary of the insurrection.

  65. 65.

    RaflW

    July 25, 2022 at 11:11 am

    @Ohio Mom: I spent a few nights in Jackson Hole to snowboard. What a strange place. Some laid back big mountain steep-n-dee- skiers + hundreds of dually diesel quad cab honker pickup trucks (a few of them are actually even ranchers!).

    I was there too late in the season for the good snow, so only stayed a couple nights then GTFO’d on east.

  66. 66.

    Brit in Chicago

    July 25, 2022 at 11:11 am

    @JML: That “potentially” in your second para is doing a lot of work. I fantasize about there being two GOP candidates for President in 2024 (and, ideally, for lots of other offices—Senate seats especially). But I’m not sure it’s likely. TFG is too lazy and disorganized to get on the ballot if he’s not the R nominee, and I’m now pretty sure he won’t be. Would Rep. Cheney want to be an independent party candidate if (say) DeS were the likely R nominee? I doubt it.

    Does that mean I should be rooting for TFG to be the R nominee? Maybe it does, but I don’t think it will happen, and I don’t think the eventual nominee will be someone much better for the country (though it might be a less awful human being).

  67. 67.

    jeffreyw

    July 25, 2022 at 11:12 am

    Liz has a bright career ahead in reenacting Civil War campaigns. She would make a dandy Sherman marching through Georgia.

  68. 68.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    July 25, 2022 at 11:12 am

    @Cameron: I’m thinking Ari got lots of noogies in the Bush White House that rattled his brains

  69. 69.

    eclare

    July 25, 2022 at 11:12 am

    @Cameron:   Math is not their strong suit.

  70. 70.

    Suzanne

    July 25, 2022 at 11:12 am

    Did everyone see JD Vance’s comments about people should stay in bad or even violent marriages?!

    Does everyone believe me now that the GOP is trying to reverse everything that makes American women free humans? It is about restoring us to subservient breeder status for white men on behalf of the state.

  71. 71.

    trollhattan

    July 25, 2022 at 11:15 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Wow, such insight. Thanks for nothing Ari, now crawl back into the box of history whence you came.

  72. 72.

    Elizabelle

    July 25, 2022 at 11:17 am

    Liz Cheney is a fighter, and is out front fighting the bad guys with her work on the J6 Committee.

    I think that is what people are admiring and responding to.  They want a fighter, and she is in a forum that lets her shine.

    Also think the MSM dumps on or — more often — ignores Biden and his accomplishments constantly.  People may not pick up on that. He is actually NOT that unpopular, and he is doing a hard job very well, even gracefully.

    And do not forget all the dirtbag press who couldn’t complain enough about the Afghanistan withdrawal.

    Liz Cheney shines because none of that is happening to her, except in the fever swamps, and most Americans don’t see that crap.  They do see headlines and cable and network news blurbs.

  73. 73.

    trollhattan

    July 25, 2022 at 11:20 am

    @RaflW: You probably noticed Jackson Hole is extremely expensive and a favorite destination of a handful of really rich people unlike, well, the rest of the state. I’m sure it does odd things to the local economy, because SOMEBODY has to clean those McMountain McMansions and serve up $18 bespoke martinis.

    Driving north to Grand Teton NP is a must-do no matter who you are–one of the most breathtaking places I’ve ever seen, plus mooses!

  74. 74.

    Elizabelle

    July 25, 2022 at 11:21 am

    @trollhattan:   I think Ms. Cheney has the ability to grow and change.  It would be mingy to not give her credit for that, if we see evidence it is happening.  For all we know, the rot she is seeing is even worse than she (and maybe even we) feared, and she is reevaluating.

    Who knows what the GOP congresscritters are saying to themselves behind the scenes?  What they say in public and private are frequently quite different.

    ETA:  And Grand Teton is on my two-year bucket list.  Cannot wait to see it.

  75. 75.

    NoraLenderbee

    July 25, 2022 at 11:23 am

    Her campaign website now features a link to a form allowing voters to change their party affiliation to Republican

    Maybe she should change her own party affiliation if she wants Dem votes. Sheesh.

  76. 76.

    Immanentize

    July 25, 2022 at 11:24 am

    Does anyone remember Phil Gramm? The unstoppable GOP candidate circa 1998….

  77. 77.

    Lyrebird

    July 25, 2022 at 11:25 am

    @Betty Cracker: It would have been easy to go along with the rest of the cowards and retain her leadership position in the caucus, but she didn’t. That took courage and integrity.

    Ditto to all of what Betty said.

    There’s a Yiddish saying I often forget, that if everybody pulled in the same direction, the world would tip over (here’s an illustrated version)

    I’m so glad BJ is here, where I agree with so much.  But I am also aware that the world is full of people different from me.  When Rep. Cheney stands up for democracy in the US of A, I respect that.

  78. 78.

    zhena gogolia

    July 25, 2022 at 11:25 am

    @Immanentize:  . . . Gramm . . .

  79. 79.

    Immanentize

    July 25, 2022 at 11:28 am

    @zhena gogolia: what are you talking about? 🙂

  80. 80.

    Baud

    July 25, 2022 at 11:30 am

    @Lyrebird:

    Respect, yes.

    Vote for over any Dem, no.

  81. 81.

    Jerzy Russian

    July 25, 2022 at 11:35 am

    @trollhattan:

     

    Driving north to Grand Teton NP is a must-do no matter who you are–one of the most breathtaking places I’ve ever seen, plus mooses!

    I thing the plural of “moose” is “meese”.

    Yes, that part of Wyoming is amazing. I need to get back there one of these days.

  82. 82.

    ian

    July 25, 2022 at 11:36 am

    @The Moar You Know:

    I am a Wyo Dem, and I did vote for her.  Her opponent is way worse- just as awful as Cheney on a host of issues.  With Cheney we get a) respect for elections, b) voted for recent gun safety measure, c) voted for marriage equality.  Watch the clips of the Wyo Republican debate if you want to see how god-awful Hageman really is.  I’ve heard a few interviews of her on local NPR, and she if full into the big lie and the need to overturn democratic victories.

    You choose the best option when you vote.   The best option is not always palatable.

  83. 83.

    trollhattan

    July 25, 2022 at 11:40 am

    @Jerzy Russian: Meese!

    https://www.heritage.org/impact/edwin-meese-iii-receives-presidential-medal-freedom

  84. 84.

    RaflW

    July 25, 2022 at 11:42 am

    @trollhattan: Western ski towns are quite the contrast. I visited a friend of my dad’s who lived in the original town of Crested Butte. He was one of the founders of High Country News, and a somewhat rare flaming lib among my pop’s circle of mostly corporatists-conservative buddies.

    The C.B. friend did alright for himself, but the split between townies and rich ski people there was notable. Aspen is just absurd (I got a screaming priceline deal to stay in a suite at the off-mountain resort where the summer Aspen Ideas Festival is HQ’d, it was like I could feel the ooogy eddies of David Brooks energy in the dining room – eww). The number of $5-20 million dollar private jets parked at Aspen Airport was just gross. The snowboarding at Snowmass was fantastic, however. The view of Maroon Bells from the top of Ajax was also worth the price of admission.

  85. 85.

    RaflW

    July 25, 2022 at 11:51 am

    @Miss Bianca: The 2020 election turned out 73,491 Biden votes. Were a few of those disaffected R’s who opposed TFG? Maybe. But, yes, a rather lonely place to be a Dem. Teton County — home of Jackson — would be the one semi-oasis (67-30 Biden/dump split).

  86. 86.

    catclub

    July 25, 2022 at 11:54 am

    @trollhattan: ​
      As to having a front row seat to Trumps corruption, she is a slow learner. One could even imagine the usual compassion of Republicans that only occurs to them if they are actually endangered – like by a mob incited by Trump. If a mob takes over the Michigan state house she has no problems with it.

    Liz Cheney, one of two Republicans on the January 6 committee, does not regret her vote against Donald Trump’s first impeachment

  87. 87.

    lee

    July 25, 2022 at 11:55 am

    I’ve seen this on ‘the internet’ that Wyoming would be the ‘easiest’ state to flip to blue via population migration.

    It would take about 150k Democratic voters moving to WY to flip it blue. Still not really feasible, but I’ve always found it interesting.

  88. 88.

    O. Felix Culpa

    July 25, 2022 at 11:57 am

    @satby:

    LOL.

  89. 89.

    Ruckus

    July 25, 2022 at 11:59 am

    @Suzanne:

    The rethuglican party is about money, who has it, who gets it, who keeps it. They want an extremely regressive party and platform because that gives them the control of money. What I’m saying is that they want to maintain the old monied class and be the old monied class. They think that they can convince enough people to be subservient to them to get paid to do the uber wealthy’s bidding. It’s worked out OK for them up till not long ago. But it is pretty obvious that to be a current rethuglican office holder in many places, one has to be rather regressive. But the more regressive they go, the more obvious what and who motivate them, the more they lose overall support. That won’t stop them – till it does. This is not newish territory for them, they have done this style before, just not so obvious as their trumping. Does anyone think that deathSantass would be a better president than SFB? Or that there are more than a very small handful of national rethuglican politicians that would not like the regressive rethuglican crap we are seeing, from the SC on down? The rethuglican party is attempting to sell their irresponsible 16th century politics as reverting to a better nation. They have been behind the curve for most of my decades here but they used to be better at hiding it. What we are seeing on their side is desperation/doubling down. And it is getting more obvious as the days go on. Sure they will have support, they have fans, ie: SFB is still getting morons to support him. I’m praying that this destroys their party, but I’m thinking there will always be people who see that being better is the worst thing in the world.

  90. 90.

    WaterGirl

    July 25, 2022 at 12:02 pm

    @Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: If the Der has no chance, they Cheney will win anyway.  Why give a Republican your vote?

  91. 91.

    Hoodie

    July 25, 2022 at 12:05 pm

    The fact that Cheney’s only hope for retaining the WY seat was to keep supporting Trump is more reason for giving her credit for supporting impeachment and her work on the 1/6 commission.  Sounds like she really doesn’t have a constituency anywhere in particular except on the Sunday talk shows.   That said, the GOP is known for quickly rewriting history, so it would not be surprising to see her career resurrected after someone (DeSantis?) dethrones Trump and they memory hole Orange Julius.

  92. 92.

    CaseyL

    July 25, 2022 at 12:07 pm

    O/T: David Warner, British actor who mostly played villains, and played them quite memorably in movies like Time Bandits and Tron, has died of cancer at age 80.

    I remember him also for two non-villain roles:  the slowly-going-crazy husband in Morgan (not his first movie, but the first one I ever saw him in) and Angie Dickinson’s ex-husband in Wild Palms (a futuristic mini-series aired back in the 90s, where Dickinson played a skin-crawlingly evil fascist, and Warner her artist ex who joined the Underground).

    RIP, David.  You elevated everything you appeared in, and your villains had a terrific sly sense of humor.

  93. 93.

    Redshift

    July 25, 2022 at 12:07 pm

    @Suzanne:

    Does everyone believe me now that the GOP is trying to reverse everything that makes American women free humans? It is about restoring us to subservient breeder status for white men on behalf of the state.

    Oh, absolutely. It’s been clear forever that’s the goal of the antiabortion movement, not “saving the babeeez.”

    The whole of conservatism is that there is a proper hierarchy, where everyone knows their place and stays in it. Anything that contributes to changing that is evil and wrong and must be crushed.

  94. 94.

    Miss Bianca

    July 25, 2022 at 12:08 pm

    @ian:

    You choose the best option when you vote.   The best option is not always palatable.

    QFT

  95. 95.

    Brachiator

    July 25, 2022 at 12:09 pm

    Liz didn’t even try to challenge dumb-as-shit Cynthia Lummis when Lummox ran for Senate in 2020. That’s because, like her dad, she used the state as a launching pad for what would have been a DC-centric insider career, if Trump hadn’t come along.

    So how vile is the person who might replace her?

  96. 96.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    July 25, 2022 at 12:09 pm

    Update from Cole via twitter

    Achievement Unlocked ColonoscopyWorst part of the procedure was making small talk with all the highly caffeinated nurses— John Cole (@Johngcole) July 25, 2022

  97. 97.

    Ohio Mom

    July 25, 2022 at 12:09 pm

    @Danielx: Cole announced on his Twitter he’s all done, “Worst part of the procedure was making small talk with all the highly caffeinated nurses.”

  98. 98.

    Miss Bianca

    July 25, 2022 at 12:10 pm

    @RaflW: Who was your dad’s friend, I wonder? I knew Ed and Betsy Marston pretty well when I lived in Paonia.

    Also lived in Crested Butte for a year when I was working in Gunnison. Pretty, pretty place, but it was a costly mistake for the most part.

    ETA: And it would be even costlier now than it was ten years ago when I moved out of CB.

  99. 99.

    O. Felix Culpa

    July 25, 2022 at 12:11 pm

    @CaseyL:

    RIP David Warner. I first became aware of him in Time Bandits, in which he played a deeply satisfying Satan.

  100. 100.

    FledtheUS

    July 25, 2022 at 12:12 pm

    @dww44: I understand your point, but she is not a friend. I don’t trust her and I don’t actually trust that she believes in democracy. I believe she wants the party her daddy ran back. I think she wants her own power for her own use.  I also believe she thinks the only way that the name Cheney will ever have any power is if she gets rid of Trump. But that doesn’t mean she believes in democracy.

    She is doing fine work on the committee. But just because the scorpion offered to carry the frog across the river didn’t mean they both made it to the other side alive.

  101. 101.

    FledtheUS

    July 25, 2022 at 12:13 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: You said it better than I was managing to.

  102. 102.

    brantl

    July 25, 2022 at 12:14 pm

    @Betty Cracker: They stole her franchise. Period.

  103. 103.

    Brachiator

    July 25, 2022 at 12:18 pm

    @CaseyL:

    O/T: David Warner, British actor who mostly played villains, and played them quite memorably in movies like Time Bandits and Tron, has died of cancer at age 80.

    I also remember him in Time After Time and The Omen. Somehow in my mind, he and Alan Rickman were somewhat similar types. Warner was a good actor and I liked him even when he played a baddie.

  104. 104.

    brantl

    July 25, 2022 at 12:18 pm

    @Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Only criminals who are in opposition to her, not the ones on her side, of which there are many.

  105. 105.

    Paul in KY

    July 25, 2022 at 12:19 pm

    @Jerzy Russian: Isn’t is moosii?

  106. 106.

    Hoodie

    July 25, 2022 at 12:20 pm

    @lee: There’s a reason only 600k people live in WY.   I was having beers with some new neighbors who used to work at UW in Laramie. They said there was a clear climate shift that occurred at the CO/WY state line, and that you had to be prepared for not being able to get back to Laramie if you took a trip down to Fort Collins for a taste of civilization.  I remember driving through blinding snow on Elk Mountain just west of there in the middle of July.   The wind never stops.

  107. 107.

    CaseyL

    July 25, 2022 at 12:23 pm

    @Brachiator: He played wonderful baddies!  I quite liked his Metatron in Karma. I think he and Rickman were very similar – not only in their looks, but in how they played villains: made them interesting, sly, and often more intelligent than the Good Guys.

    Warner, as Evil in Time Bandits:

    • Evil : God isn’t interested in technology. He cares nothing for the microchip or the silicon revolution. Look how he spends his time, forty-three species of parrots! Nipples for men!

      Robert : Slugs.

      Evil : Slugs! HE created slugs! They can’t hear. They can’t speak. They can’t operate machinery. Are we not in the hands of a lunatic?

    The way he said “Nipples for men,” just slayed me.

  108. 108.

    Old School

    July 25, 2022 at 12:25 pm

    OT: Joni Mitchell performed a set at the Newport Folk Festival yesterday.

  109. 109.

    Fair Economist

    July 25, 2022 at 12:26 pm

    In the current environment, Cheney is a huge advantage over any alternative Republican. We’ll benefit from actively supporting her.

    In the future if she becomes dangerous again we can oppose her then. Political alliances are not weddings. They don’t last for life.

  110. 110.

    O. Felix Culpa

    July 25, 2022 at 12:28 pm

    @Fair Economist:

    Political alliances are not weddings. They don’t last for life.

    Neither do a lot of marriages, for that matter.

  111. 111.

    Brachiator

    July 25, 2022 at 12:28 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    But on the other hand, if Republicans had turned on Trump after 1/6, he wouldn’t have just gone away.

    Had Trump been convicted and disqualified from holding office as a result of impeachment, some of his political power might have been blunted. The GOP stupidly let him get nominated years ago. He has infected the GOP ever since. Even if he does not run again and just plays king maker, his baleful influence is bad for the country and for democracy.

  112. 112.

    trollhattan

    July 25, 2022 at 12:41 pm

    @Old School: Wow, no idea that had happened.

  113. 113.

    Jinchi

    July 25, 2022 at 12:45 pm

    @catclub: . If a mob takes over the Michigan state house she has no problems with it

    I’ve been surprised that there is very little mention of the attacks and armed protests by rightwing mobs at statehouses across the country in the leadup to 1/6,  often with the open encouragement of Trump.

    At Michigan, in particular, they strolled into the statehouse, carrying guns and stood nose to nose facing the statehouse security. Trump’s reaction was to attack the governor and encourage the state to caputulate to the mob.

    So it’s not a surprise that those guys figured they could stroll into Congress and force Pence to name Trump the winner. Or that Trump thought he would be able to pull it off.

  114. 114.

    RaflW

    July 25, 2022 at 12:48 pm

    @Miss Bianca: Larry Mosher. I guess I could be wrong about him as a founder, but he was very much associated with High Country News in my mind – longtime reporter, at any rate.

    I’ve also spent some time in Paonia. A Minneapolis friend married a guy who grew up there, so I visited a couple times. My first taste of (highly addictive) Rainier cherries were all their fault!

  115. 115.

    The Thin Black Duke

    July 25, 2022 at 12:49 pm

    It’s best to think of Cheney as a temporary ally. If Cheney is the scorpion the Democrats are carrying across the river, we better be wearing body armor.

  116. 116.

    Geminid

    July 25, 2022 at 12:51 pm

    @Brachiator: McConnell may have put the brakes on conviction in the second impeachment because he figured that a good chunk of Republican voters never would have forgiven the party for it. The Georgia runoffs provided an example of how disaffected trumpists could make or break Republican candidates. McConnell may have figured that it was better to let trumpists drift away from their hero over time.

    I’m not sure Republicans, or at least the leaders made a mistake when Trump won the nomination in 2016. They tried to stop him, but they could not control their voters.

  117. 117.

    way2blue

    July 25, 2022 at 12:54 pm

    I would do it—I would switch to Republican to vote for Liz.  The conservative policies she supports bring me up short, but right now, in this moment, we need her in the House.  Full stop…

  118. 118.

    artem1s

    July 25, 2022 at 12:57 pm

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: ​
     

    Yesterday, I was shocked when my group of secret Ds was drinking on the patio, and one couple said they might vote for Cheney. Someone said if she ran for what office with what party, and they said just anything.

    I’m not at all shocked. This has been the plan all along. She will be the perfect GQP VP choice to get white women and NPR Republicans who are looking for a non-embarrassing candidate they can vote for even if they have to hold their nose because someone odious is at the top of the ticket. Exactly the role Pence played in 2016.

    Will not surprise me one bit when the MSM, trolls and rose twitter start calling for the Dems to replace Biden (or Harris) with Liz in 2024. Be afraid, be very, very afraid.

  119. 119.

    SFAW

    July 25, 2022 at 12:57 pm

    @CaseyL: ​
     
    There are now only three lights.
    May he RIP.

  120. 120.

    Jinchi

    July 25, 2022 at 1:03 pm

    @Brachiator: Right. Trumps power doesn’t come from his brilliant political skills.  It comes from the rightwing media echo chamber and the support if the Republican establishment. Immediately after 1/6, he’d lost support of all of them. He lost his direct line of communication, his coup had failed, staff had quit, others had refused orders. It looked like he would be impeached or removed from office before the week was out.

    If they had, he’d be done. A complete failure who’d lost them the presidency, the Senate and the House. Fox and the rest would have put out hit pieces on him until every good old boy thought he was a traitor to the cause.

    His power comes because McCarthy went and groveled before him and McConnell refused to move on impeachment. Republicans decided he was their guy even though he’d set the mob on them.  They reconfirmed him as the leader and Republican most likely to be President again.

    That’s the reason he has any sway today.

  121. 121.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    July 25, 2022 at 1:03 pm

    @WaterGirl: Again, this is hypothetical, because I live in MO not WY. However, the reason I would have voted for her is the same reason ian did. You choose the best option available, even if that option is bad.

  122. 122.

    SFAW

    July 25, 2022 at 1:04 pm

    @Brachiator: ​
     

    Had Trump been convicted and disqualified from holding office as a result of impeachment …

    Until the ICOTUS ruled that Article II, Section 4, does not really apply to Rethuglicans, that is. The Alito Court would find some obscure quasi-religious tract/screed stating that Madison and the rest were “crossing their fingers behind their backs” when they wrote that part, so they clearly didn’t mean it to apply to certain parties.

  123. 123.

    SFAW

    July 25, 2022 at 1:08 pm

    OT, but: over at LGM, Cheryl Rofer has written a post wherein she (more or less) points out that the FTFTFNYT is trying to outdo DougJ’s Pitchbot in their effort(s) to de-legitimize Kamala Harris as VP and possible future POTUS candidate.

  124. 124.

    Ksmiami

    July 25, 2022 at 1:11 pm

    @JML: broken, annihilated, destroyed, dusted. Put a goddamn stake in the GOP and cover the dirt with ash. The party is Confederate revanchist and an utter toxic menace.

  125. 125.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    July 25, 2022 at 1:13 pm

    @brantl:

    Only criminals who are in opposition to her, not the ones on her side, of which there are many.

    I’m not sure that is true. TFG was like catnip to the corrupt. She is cruel and pitiless, like so many in the GOP, but she is not corrupt. I’d rather her lack of empathy and desire to punish the ‘undeserving’ was being put in service of the public, by sticking it to actual criminals, instead just poor people.

  126. 126.

    Ksmiami

    July 25, 2022 at 1:14 pm

    @Jinchi: at which point, Those mobs scared the living shit out of the genteel citizens in Oakland County and helped push them to provide Biden’s vote margins in Michigan.

  127. 127.

    Kelly

    July 25, 2022 at 1:15 pm

    @frosty: Or as Mark Knopfler suggests in “Boom like that” if your enemy is drowning out a hose in his mouth.

  128. 128.

    Miss Bianca

    July 25, 2022 at 1:17 pm

    @RaflW: I’ve heard that name, but never met him, that I’m aware of.

    Loved Paonia so much, would love to end out my days there. There are times when I find myself wishing I’d never left.

  129. 129.

    Soprano2

    July 25, 2022 at 1:17 pm

    @Suzanne: Ugh, no I didn’t see it but I can imagine. Does he think even 10% of the population agrees with him? I guess he’s going after the men-who-beat-their-wives demographic.

  130. 130.

    Soprano2

    July 25, 2022 at 1:18 pm

    @Elizabelle: You mean how gas prices have been dropping a lot in the past 3 weeks and yet all the stories about gas prices are still about how high they are?

  131. 131.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    July 25, 2022 at 1:19 pm

    @Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I meant ‘deserving’ not ‘undeserving’.

  132. 132.

    Geminid

    July 25, 2022 at 1:20 pm

    @Jinchi: McConnell may have figured that once trump was out of office his hold on people would fade. I think it has.

  133. 133.

    catclub

    July 25, 2022 at 1:25 pm

    @Geminid: ​
     

    . I think it has.

    is this a reference to the recent NY Post and WSJ editorials (Murdoch papers) that Trump is unsuited for the presidency. Murdoch papers are very large worm.

  134. 134.

    Geminid

    July 25, 2022 at 1:44 pm

    @catclub: Not really. Elites have been over trump a while now. I’m thinking of polling that’s been showing a slow but steady decline in trump’s support among rank and file Republicans. Also, many of trump’s independent voters have been long gone I think.

    As for Fox and the WSJ, it could be that the Murdoch machine observes a drop in loyalty to trump such that they can safely start tearing him down. They’ve wanted to anyway but the time was not yet ripe.

  135. 135.

    J R in WV

    July 25, 2022 at 2:00 pm

    @frosty: ​
     

    As a practical matter, anchors are generally easier than anvils to throw.

    Maybe, if you’re talking about prissy little civilian anchors. On my USN ship the stern anchor had a chain so heavy one link would need a crane to pick it up off the deck. We almost lost that anchor one windy night, the chain was slipping out over the cog used to hoist the anchor normally…

    And Aircraft carriers probably have much heavier anchors than a 1944 sub tender. Maybe, anyway. “The (Enterprise’s) starboard anchor weighs 32 tons and was first built in 1957, several years before the “Big E” went into service.” The links of heavy anchor chain weigh 500 lbs each.

  136. 136.

    J R in WV

    July 25, 2022 at 2:05 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    And that just how stupid Ari Fleischer is — can’t count to two, or else doesn’t remember when the election and inauguration was…!!!

  137. 137.

    Ruckus

    July 25, 2022 at 2:17 pm

    @J R in WV:

    I served on a DDG, a boat just slightly smaller (450ft) than a carrier (1000ft).

    Example – when we refueled from a carrier, the top of our mast was about the height of the flight deck. We had a crew of 300, carrier crew, ship’s and flight was about 5000 men. Also when we refueled from that carrier we would be standing on the deck and the bubble deck on the lower starboard (right) side of the ship was still about 20 ft above us. A DDG could sail anywhere in the world, I crossed the Atlantic 6 times, spent 6 weeks in the Caribbean, (3 nights at Gitmo) and we looked like a piece of driftwood compared to a then modern carrier.

    My point is, your point is right. A carrier is a big ass ship. Really, really big ass ship. In every way.

  138. 138.

    Ohio Mom

    July 25, 2022 at 2:34 pm

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    @Ohio Mom:

    Our comments must have crossed in the ether.

    I’m always glad when anyone’s medical procedure is over. Here’s hoping no polyps were found.

  139. 139.

    TEL

    July 25, 2022 at 2:38 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Totally agree with this.

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