Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“But what about the lurkers?”

The words do not have to be perfect.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!

Giving up is unforgivable.

Since we are repeating ourselves, let me just say fuck that.

Everybody saw this coming.

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

I really should read my own blog.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

The current Supreme Court is a dangerous, rogue court.

Text STOP to opt out of updates on war plans.

Never give a known liar the benefit of the doubt.

Disappointing to see gov. newsom with his finger to the wind.

With all due respect and assumptions of good faith, please fuck off into the sun.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

When we show up, we win.

You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.

White supremacy is terrorism.

They punch you in the face and then start crying because their fist hurts.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Open Thread: Will He or Won’t He? Lay Down Your Markers – He Did! He Released the Kracken Warrant!

Open Thread: Will He or Won’t He? Lay Down Your Markers – He Did! He Released the Kracken Warrant!

by | 253 Comments

This post is in: 

So, what do you think?  We should know by 3pm.

Door #1 – Trump/attorneys will fight the release

Door #2 – Trump/attorneys will not fight the release.

Door #3 – no legal response at all – “la la la I can’t hear you!” because Trump refuses to take the advice of attorneys and attorneys won’t do what Trump wants.

Optional nuance:

Door #4 – legal response is that they will fight the release but Trump will say that he wanted to allow the release but the attorneys wouldn’t let him do that.

Door #5 – build your own response.

Here’s your chance to lay down your markers.

Open thread.

Oh, and this is my crazy dahlia.  No blooms last year, this is my first bloom this year.  The day after it opened, we got a big storm and the wind snapped it off, so I am getting to enjoy it inside.  (I almost never cut my flowers and bring them in.)

Open Thread: Will He or Won't He? Lay Down Your Markers 1

Oh, and in case you can’t tell how huge this is, I added a one liter water bottle for reference.

Open Thread: Will He or Won't He? Lay Down Your Markers

That poor water bottle now has a security complex.

Reader Interactions

253Comments

  1. 1.

    Betsy

    Door 4.

    Incredible dahlia!

    ETA:  I thought Orangemandias released stuff already to the WSJ.  Not the same stuff?

  2. 2.

    Mowgli

    9. Trump is last seen boarding a private jet bound for Russia

     

     

    (maybe just my fantasy?)

  4. 4.

    CaseyL

    My guess is Door 4: Trump’s lawyers will oppose unsealing, and he’ll say “I wanted to, but…”

    That’s a gorgeous dahlia.  Dahlias (and giant sunflowers) always strike me as alien lifeforms.

    Dahlias, because they’re just too-perfect illustrations of Mandelbrot sets.  Also, they’re huge.

    Sunflowers, because there’s something spooky to me about a flower that can get 12 feet tall and looks like it’s staring at you. I should note – I mean this as a good spooky.  I’m not scared of them; I’m fascinated.

  6. 6.

    different-church-lady

    I want to trade whatever’s behind door #3 for whatever might be in the box of Rice-o-Roni.

  9. 9.

    jonas

    I think #4 is likely — he may have gotten a bit out over his skis with his tweet (“truthweets”? whatever the hell you call his posts on his stupid social media site) saying he wanted the warrant released immediately. I’m sure after that he was swarmed by lawyers and advisers who may have persuaded him that that was not going to be a good look because it would of course reveal just how much, if not the particular kind, of illegal shit he had spirited out of the WH. Remember how he was “forced” to take the 5th the other day after spending years saying that only crooks and guilty people did that? I imagine a similar walk-back in this case.

  12. 12.

    White & Gold Purgatorian

    Thanks for adding the second dahlia pic, because I looked at the first one and said “why did she put that flower in a shot glass?” What a flower!

    I am no good at doors, but Trump will do his best to knock over the game board and stomp on the pieces. Maybe door 4 with an added whine of “mean old DOJ is trying to make me give up my rights which I would totally do if anyone else was asking, but this is a trap and a witch-hunt and my real friends know it is wrong to do anything the USAG wants me to do.”

  13. 13.

    Ken

    I saw a “steps in every Trump scandal” post, and we’re already more than halfway through (having hit the “Obama did it too” stage).  I’m going to go out on limb a bit, and say that by 3 PM Trump will hit the last stage, and be saying “Yes, I took secret documents, and it’s the best thing I ever did, nobody ever did it better”.

  14. 14.

    Princess Leia

    Door #4, but as soon as his attorneys object to the release the release, the DOJ withdraws the request.

  15. 15.

    jonas

    @WaterGirl: “Although I very much wanted to, the outrageous lies in this totally fake ‘warrant’ or whatever they call it were so stupendous and horrifying that I simply can’t let the American people see it. It would be too painful for them…”

  17. 17.

    Falling Diphthong

    3. The la la la la I can’t hear you.

     

    Trump is now accusing Obama of having classified documents about nukes, so I deduce that he currently believes that’s what he had. I imagine he learned this from watching TV. I would love to believe it’s the cover up for something even worse, but don’t for a moment believe he has the discipline to stick to a cover story for a complete sentence.

  18. 18.

    jonas

    @Ken: “The removal of the documents was perfect. Completely perfect. Officials from the National Archives said, sir, we have never seen a more perfect, legal relocation of classified material.”

  19. 19.

    Scout211

    Beautiful dahlia!

    Door #4 is my top vote.

    Second is #2 with a protracted 14 day period of haggling over redactions and wording.

    Since we are picking guesses here, can we all add our guesses about who the confidential informant was who knew which documents were classified and where they were located?

    My guess is Patsy Baloney.

    Any other guesses?

  23. 23.

    Fester Addams

    Apparently going with ” no biggie, all U.S. presidents cart off crates of top secret code-word and nuclear weapons-related shit.”

  25. 25.

    UncleEbeneezer

    BREAKING: THREAD: the WSJ is reporting on the warrant and inventory of what was taken from MAL. Here is what they list: One set of docs marked TOP SECRET/SENSITIVE COMPARTMENTED INFORMATION (TS/SCI) Four sets of docs marked TOP SECRET Three sets of docs marked SECRET 1/

    Three sets of docs marked CONFIDENTIAL 20 boxes of other items including binders of photos, a handwritten note, info on the president of France, and the clemency order for Roger Stone 2/

    As for the warrant itself: “The search and seizure warrant, signed by U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart, shows that FBI agents sought to search “the 45 Office,” as well as “all storage rooms and all other rooms or areas within the premises… 3/

    “…used or available to be used by [the former president] and his staff and in which boxes or documents could be stored, including all structures or buildings on the estate.” 4/

    Keep in mind, this was likely obtained FOR the WSJ from trump allies or lawyers to get out ahead of the story. The WSJ does NOT provide a copy of the actual documents. We don’t know what wasn’t reported here. END/

  30. 30.

    Roger Moore

    I’m going to go with door 4, or at least that’s close enough. Trump will publicly talk about how much he wants the stuff released, but he was compelled to oppose the release for some BS reason: his lawyers told him not to, or he has to for security reasons, or something like that.
    A slight variant on this will be him disputing that the material they took matches what was in the warrant, so he can’t support the false narrative the warrant projects. The material they took was planted, or they broke into his private areas and took private documents that weren’t covered by the warrant, or something like that.

  31. 31.

    TaMara

    Lovely flower!

    Since it sounds like T**** gave it to WSJ, I’m not sure the judge, who seems to be one not to fuck with, will ask hard questions if they try to block it.

  33. 33.

    Kent

    Option 6:  He would love to release the documents but he can’t upon advice of his lawyers because he is still under audit by the IRS.

  34. 34.

    Elizabelle

    I hope the fucker gets indicted on something by August 24th.  That would be cool.  Can be NY State, Georgia, whatevs.

    I hope we see a lot of pushback against him, and against those he inspires.  Do not be afraid.  Hit them harder.

  35. 35.

    JPL

    @Betsy: OT  The other day you and Ozark were talking about movies for tots.   It gave me an idea and although I couldn’t stream The Sound of Music, I  was able to stream Chitty Chitty, Bang Bang.   It helped calm a grumpy three year old boy.

    thank you

  37. 37.

    Salty Sam

    There once was a man from Australia

    Who painted ‘is arse like a Dahlia

    The color was fine

    Likewise the design

    The aroma, Good GOD, was a failure!

  38. 38.

    jonas

    @UncleEbeneezer: info on the president of France

    I’d actually love to see what this was. Probably a kindergarden-level bullet-pointed list of things like “France is in Europe” and  “France Friend. Friend” and “Macron President too, just like you!”

  39. 39.

    Roger Moore

    @WaterGirl:

    Just shy of a quart – 33.4 ounces.

    That’s just over a quart (32 ounces) not just shy.  Remember what they used to say on Schoolhouse Rock: “a liter is a little more than a quart”.

  42. 42.

    bbleh

    Events seem to have overtaken speculation (dammit) but my vote was #2, because they knew perfectly well (1) they were gonna lose if they fought it and (2) they were gonna have to deal with everybody asking them why THEY didn’t release it, so best both legally and politically just to duck and deal with the incoming.

    I think a more interesting question is, what political defense will they adopt?  My bet is on “the president can declassify with the power of his mind, so no harm no foul” plus the continuing “political witch hunt!” (including Obama 33 million, Hillary emails, Hunter Biden laptop).

  43. 43.

    Roger Moore

    @jonas:

    Yeah, Trump is deliberately conflating the Obama Presidential Library and his own private stash of documents.  It’s a competent lie, since the difference is just subtle enough that people who don’t want to listen can tune it out.

  44. 44.

    trollhattan

    I’m with #1. Trump is a simpleton who fights everything he doesn’t like or want. It’s on-brand, plus he’ll count on the Next Big Thing to take this off the front page.

  45. 45.

    Brachiator

    Door #4 – legal response is that they will fight the release but Trump will say that he wanted to allow the release but the attorneys wouldn’t let him do that.

    This or some variant sounds like a coward like Trump.

    “One of my lawyers came up to me with tears in his eyes and said to me, ‘Sir, I know you want to fight these guys and beat them down. But you need to let us loyal and patriotic MAGA lawyers protect America, the flag and Ivanka by fighting for you.’ “

  46. 46.

    Sxjames

    It will be door #4.  And I really hope the DOJ pushes forward and does not drop the request for release ( or at least make the Trump lawyers give a reason why).

    Mmm… auto correct kept changing DOJ to DOH.  Simpsons live! 😊

  47. 47.

    cmorenc

    My guess is door #5: they allow release, but pull a Bill Barr-type move and issue an explainer why the list is a nothing-burger that exonerates Trump.

  49. 49.

    Roger Moore

    @bbleh:

    I think a more interesting question is, what political defense will they adopt?

    This is easy.  It will be the usual Gish gallop.  They’ll put forward every possible excuse- he declassified the documents, he had a right to keep them, Obama did worse, Squirrel!, etc.- to try to flood the zone and keep everyone focused on what they’re saying rather than what DOJ is saying.  Of course the media will be distracted, but the DOJ will keep plugging until the indictment is unsealed.

  52. 52.

    fancycwabs

    @UncleEbeneezer: “the mere mention of these documents by name will drive the speaker insane.”

    So he’s apparently to release the warrants himself, but only to pro-Trump propaganda outlets, with unredacted names attached?

    I’m not sure that your ordinary FBI field agent is quite as easy to intimidate as, say Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz.

  54. 54.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Roger Moore:

    Yeah, Trump the Soviet shitpile mobster conman is deliberately conflating the Obama Presidential Library and his own private stash of documents state secrets that the orange shitstain stole. It’s a competent lie, since the difference is just subtle enough that people who don’t want to listen can tune it out.

    Fixed.

    Hillary Clinton really should tweet, “Well done!  You stupid, stupid sacks of shit!”

  59. 59.

    Scout211

    Link
    Among the items taken from Trump’s resort was a document about pardoning Roger Stone, a staunch Trump ally who was convicted in 2019 of lying to Congress during its probe of Russian interference in the 2016 election. (Trump pardoned Stone before leaving office, shielding Stone from a three-year prison term.)

    It’s unclear how the Stone-related document seized during the search is tied to the broader criminal probe into Trump’s potential mishandling of classified materials.

    During the search, FBI agents also recovered a document about the “President of France,” according to the WSJ report, which didn’t provide other details about the document.

  63. 63.

    MazeDancer

    He released it. Doxxing the agents with Breitbart. WSJ redacted agent Names. But Trump wants them dead, apparently.

    Fox is reporting the 11 folders stuff.

  67. 67.

    Scout211

    more from CNN


    CNN)    The FBI recovered 11 sets of classified documents from its search of Mar-a-Lago earlier this week, including some materials marked as “top secret/SCI,” The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.

    The newspaper reported that FBI agents removed about 20 boxes from former President Donald Trump’s resort and residence in Palm Beach, Florida — including binders, sets of classified government materials, photographs and at least one handwritten note.
    Federal agents reportedly seized one set of “top secret/SCI” documents, the highest level of classification. Agents took four sets of “top secret” documents, three sets of “secret” documents and three sets of “confidential” documents, the lowest level of classification, the Journal reported.

  70. 70.

    JaySinWA

    I’m a bit late to the party. I suspect they will let the clock run out (#3) and then complain even after handing it over to Rupert Murdoch. BTW can we adopt Rupert as our Soros class super villain?

  73. 73.

    Leto

    @mrmoshpotato: acceptable!

     

    @mrmoshpotato: she’s all the Oracles, rolled into one. As with so many things, she was just so clear eyed and leagues ahead of everyone else as to the clear and present danger that we were/are facing. I’ll just add my name to the list of people who will be forever angry about it.

  74. 74.

    MazeDancer

    Hugo Lowell tweets

    via Breitbart:

    Trump under investigation per search warrant for:
    18 USC 2071 — Concealment, removal or mutilation
    18 USC 793 — Gathering, transmitting or losing defence information
    18 USC 1519 — Destruction, alteration or falsification of records in Federal investigations

  77. 77.

    Leto

    @Omnes Omnibus: that should be in conjunction with violations of the Presidential Records Act, but whatever gets him 1) behind bars and/or 2) permanently disqualified from office, will work.

  79. 79.

    Captain C

    Option #5:  He starts rambling about how Obama’s (non-existent) son-in-law peddled the docs to Mohammed Bone Saw and Putin, and didn’t even give him, TFG, the bestest preznit and businessman ever, a proper cut.

  80. 80.

    MazeDancer

    DoJ didn’t need to charge espionage to get warrant.

    I’m still routing for the Rosenberg treatment with its addition later.

  82. 82.

    MazeDancer

    More Hugo Lowell:

    Two new restricted/sealed entries have just been added to the sealed Trump Ma-a-Lago search warrant docket — and it’s unclear what this could be — as we wait for AG Garland to deliver remarks at main Justice

  83. 83.

    Fake Irishman

    Democrats passed the rule governing debate for the Inflation Reduction Act in the House 219-208.  Pelosi has the votes. (We knew she did, but now we really know she does)

    moving into the third and final hour of debate. If there’s a front pager around, might be nice to get a thread up on the final vote, so we’re not only talking about TFG at the moment of the biggest climate bill in US history passing (paid for by a minimum corporate tax, better tax enforcement  and letting Medicare  negotiate the price of drugs, all of which are incredible achievements in their own rights)

  86. 86.

    Ken

    WSJ, Fox, and Breitbart? I wonder if we’re seeing three different people leaking the documents, without coordinating their actions.  I’ll guess Don Jr. for Fox, Ivana for WSJ, and Eric for Breitbart.

  88. 88.

    UncleEbeneezer

    BREAKING: Donald is under federal criminal investigation for:

    2071: 3 years max and can’t hold office
    793: (espionage act): 10 years max
    1519: obstruction: 20 years max

  90. 90.

    JaySinWA

    @JPL: Whoa, are we getting ahead of ourselves?

    I thought that warrants specified crimes, places and material, not naming suspects unless they were to be arrested. Could the target be someone like Jared? or more likely an assortment of the T gangstas? T is definitely a criminal, but this is kind of out of his league as a mastermind. Aiding and abetting sure, but I think there were others involved in the plotting (or plodding).

  91. 91.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Roger Moore:

    That whole “Obama did it too!1” thing raises the question of why didn’t Trump’s DOJ do anything about it IF (and that’s a big if) Obama really did it. It’s BS of course, but I think they should be called out on this

  92. 92.

    Bupalos

    It’s impossible to understand totalitarian/authoritarians like Putin or Trump without getting out of this box where it has to be ONE of the options or explanations or reasons or conspiracy theories. These guys do/say as many things as they can think up. The more contradictory the better. You seed the ground with so many potential versions of the truth that the truth becomes impossible and meaningless.

    Trump didn’t take any sensitive documents

    and

    Of course he took sensitive documents, they were his for the taking and it’s good for a president to take them

    and

    Obama took even more sensitive documents, and it’s bad to take them, so he is a much worse.

    and

    The FBI planted the sensitive documents to destroy Trump

    and 10 other mutually discordant things. It’s intentional and effective.

  94. 94.

    Ken

    @MazeDancer: Two new restricted/sealed entries have just been added to the sealed Trump Ma-a-Lago search warrant docket — and it’s unclear what this could be

    Based on my extensive knowledge of espionage practices, obtained from decades of watching Mission: Impossible episodes, I’m going to say they found additional classified documents on a microdot cleverly concealed as a wart on one of the Roger Stone photos.

  95. 95.

    ian

    @bbleh:

    “political witch hunt!” (including Obama 33 million, Hillary emails, Hunter Biden laptop).

    This is what I have heard from the RW people in my sphere of the world, so I assume it is the Fox News assigned talking points.

  96. 96.

    Leto

    @MazeDancer: people typically wait for the “other shoe to drop”, but I prefer my shoes to be firmly attached to the person, buried in concrete, as they’re being tossed off the pier. And to continue with that water analogy, I sincerely hope that Trumpov is the albatross around the GOP neck that they’ll never rid themselves of.

  97. 97.

    Fake Irishman

    Incidentally, you can easily assert Pelosi in the greatest Speaker since John McCormick in the mid 60s or Sam Rayburn before him. You could make an argument with a straight face that she’s been the most effective since Thomas Reed in the late 1890s. Pelosi-Reid and Pelosi-Schumer have been extraordinarily good cat-herders and negotiating teams regardless of whether their caucus has been in the majority or the minority.

  102. 102.

    Gary K

    Door #5 – build your own response.

    Merrick Garland peels away a rubber mask to reveal that he’s really TFG, or vice versa.

  110. 110.

    MazeDancer

    @Leto: Please may Trump be screwed now.

    But, Breitbart promoting the lie Trump declassified it all.

    Not so. He has to have gone through correct procedure. And nuke stuff cannot actually be declassified.

    But that’s the lie they have chosen.

  112. 112.

    NotMax

    @Dorothy A. Winsor

    Yeah, that’s their shiny new diversionary toy to toss out and test the waters.

    First and foremost, an election for which Individual 1 is not on any ballot.

    Second, what’s the magic number, then? 93 days? 171? 364?

  114. 114.

    CaseyL

    It’s official:

    Trump is under investigation for violating the Espionage Act.

    I mean, he’s under investigation for a few other crimes, but this is the big one.

  115. 115.

    jonas

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: They were babbling about how awful it was that the DOJ…did something within 90 days of an election.

    Yeah, it sure sucks when the FBI does something like that, doesn’t it? At least it wasn’t a week before the election, amirite?

    As an aside, I’ve often wondered what it’s like to live without a single iota of shame or self-awareness.

  116. 116.

    hueyplong

    It doesn’t matter what spin they come up with or how implausible it is.  It will be accepted by the cult.

    Few things are more reliably asserted.

  119. 119.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    Guys, I don’t mean to alarm anyone, but I think that we’re currently living in the Mirror Universe version of a Tom Clancy novel. Between the war, the pandemic, and the President run afoul of the Espionage Act, the only thing that keeps this from being straight-up Clancy is that the traitorous party and the patriotic party are flipped.

  120. 120.

    Mallard Filmore

    @Roger Moore: 

    Aah, 900mL rather than 1L.

    It’s like this in Asia. What should be a round number in local values turns into “What executive decided 0.9L is the right and proper number?” It must be because 0.9L is from a USA standard size. Like the USA is the tail wagging the dog.

  122. 122.

    Baud

    @Bruce K in ATH-GR:

    the only thing that keeps this from being straight-up Clancy is that the traitorous party and the patriotic party are flipped

    Of course. This is real life, not fiction.

  123. 123.

    Leto

    @MazeDancer: Oh I know. We were discussing that last night. Doxxing the FBI agents, trying anything to obscure what’s going on, buying Russian gaslighting by the metric ton… I can only hope that if the general public (aka the “normies”) are even paying the slightest attention, that this etches the GOP as the party of traitors forever in their minds. That the stank never washes off, no matter how many times they (and all their f’ing media enablers) try to rebrand themselves. Fuck’em, for all eternity.

  128. 128.

    Leto

    @Bruce K in ATH-GR: I wonder how many of us are waiting to wake up and discover it was all a dream, either Newhart style or Dallas… I would’ve preferred Newhart but we unfortunately have the Dallas writers =/

  129. 129.

    Immanentize

    @JaySinWA: The warrant was a SEARCH warrant, not an arrest warrant. A search warrant has 2 specific requirements: probable cause to believe criminal evidence exists and probable cause to believe that the evidence is where the affiant seeking the warrant claims it is.

    An arrest warrant only requires really one thing: probable cause that a specific person committed a specific crime.

    Now, my hope is that the warrant gives at least some clue as to what crime the search for evidence was based on. This will be the Twitter rage for a day or two.

  130. 130.

    bbleh

    @MazeDancer: @UncleEbeneezer: @JaySinWA:  yeah, I think those are just the statutes for the violation of which evidence is being sought, for which there is probable cause, but there’s no implication of whom they think might have committed those violations.

    That said, given that one of them involves “retention” of defense information, and it’s, y’know, his house …

  132. 132.

    MazeDancer

    Harry Littmann tweets:

    18 USC 793 —Gathering, transmitting or losing defence information. AKA ESPIONAGE. THAT’S SAME CHARGE AS FOR SNOWDEN

  134. 134.

    Leto

    @JaySinWA: I think this ties back into the speculation that it might have been Meadows due to the fact that team Traitor was told to stop communicating with him. It’s also possible that I might be misremembering that as the g’d firehose of information has been open at 100% for almost the past week now.

  135. 135.

    Suzanne

    @HumboldtBlue: There is no fucking bottom. It’s honestly worse than I ever imagined.

    Imagine being dumb enough to vote for that piece of shit. You’d have to be so dumb that the humans can’t let you off-leash.

  137. 137.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @MazeDancer: That link takes me to a tweet that doesn’t mention Garland speaking.

    “NEW via Breitbart: Trump under investigation per search warrant for: 18 USC 2071 — Concealment, removal or mutilation 18 USC 793 — Gathering, transmitting or losing defence information 18 USC 1519 — Destruction, alteration or falsification of records in Federal investigations”

    Just curious because I haven’t anything about announcements from Garland since yesterday.

  140. 140.

    MazeDancer

    @bbleh: Politico (!), lawyer Harry Littman, and emptywheel all tweeting that Trump is being charged under Espionage.

    They are not saying that on MSNBC. But Politico!

  142. 142.

    Immanentize

    @bbleh: Also — Declassification of things nuclear (products, not necessarily military plans but some of them too!) has to be approved by a special committee in the Department of Energy (which is our State guarantor under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty).

  144. 144.

    geg6

    @bbleh:

    My understanding is that the president cannot de-classify nuclear info.  It must be done by the Dept. of Energy, I think.

  146. 146.

    New Deal democrat

    Door #5:
    It seems all the news outlets are interpreting Trump’s statement to mean he agrees with the DoJ releasing the search warrant and list of documents seized – documents he already has.

    That’s not actually what he said. Here’s the actual text:

    “ Not only will I not oppose the release of documents related to the … raid … , I am going a step further by ENCOURAGING the immediate release of those documents….

    “Release the documents now!“
     
    He is now insisting on the release of all “documents related” to the search. That almost certainly means at very least the affidavit used to demonstrate probable cause, and it could be read – and he will read it that way, as it’s to his advantage – as meaning the release of the DoJ’s entire case file concerning the investigation leading up to the search.

    This is like a suspect under interrogation at police headquarters asking police, “What’ve you got?” so that the suspect can tailor their response and defenses to accommodate the evidence the police have.

    Trump wants the same thing, and since the DoJ isn’t going to do that, it gives him a continuing grievance about how “unfairly” he’s being treated.

    So I suspect Trump will take the position that he is in favor of releasing the documents the DoJ wants to release, BUT ONLY on the condition that the probable cause affidavit and other supporting documents from the DoJ’s case file are released. He will frame it as “no selective release,” and his toadies will go right along with that framing.

  149. 149.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @Mallard Filmore: This reminds me of when we were on our Tanzanian safari and our soft sided duffel (so it could be squished into storage on a small plane) could weigh no more than 33 pounds.  I thought 33 pounds was an oddly precise number (why not 30 or 35 pounds?), and then when we got over there I realized that of course, the weight limit is actually 15 Kilos, translated for Americans, since almost nobody except the US uses pounds anymore.

  151. 151.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @zhena gogolia: Because it’s not just that they’re dumb. It’s that they’re filled with hatred, and he told them they were right to be so. All these sacks of trash care about is sticking it to anyone they don’t like, which generally means anyone who isn’t white, cis, straight, Christian, US-born, etc. He stuck it to those “others” constantly, and that made his groupies happy. Enough that they conveniently ignore how often his policies also hurt them.

  153. 153.

    Mike S (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!)

    @Roger Moore:  Also as I understand it, Obama got the documents FROM the National Archives with a promise to have them scanned and made available to the public.

  154. 154.

    Leto

    @bbleh: this is what Cheryl was discussing in her twitter thread yesterday. Nuclear material originates at classified, but like other material can be declassified given the proper review. What would that review look like? Glad you asked!

    Part 3. Declassification and Downgrading

    Here’s your general starting guide. A big caveat to why nuclear material isn’t generally declassified?

    Sec. 3.3. Automatic Declassification.

    (b) An agency head may exempt from automatic declassification under paragraph (a) of this section specific information, the release of which could be expected to:

    (2) reveal information that would assist in the development or use of weapons of mass destruction;

  155. 155.

    MazeDancer

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    Sorry, didn’t know that was what you wanted. And I got it from searching Twitter, as it showed up in the list just after the warrant tweet.

    But, further apologies, it was not from the same time frame. Yesterday.

  156. 156.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Speaking of dahlias, Trader Joe’s in SoCal currently have a bunch of them so just a heads up to everyone here (not sure if they have them elsewhere).  My wife adores dahlias and the TJ’s window is usually fairly short each year, so get them now!!!

  157. 157.

    Immanentize

    This is what I was waiting for:

    NEW via Breitbart: Trump under investigation per search warrant for:

    18 USC 2071 — Concealment, removal or mutilation

    18 USC 793 — Gathering, transmitting or losing defence information

    18 USC 1519 — Destruction, alteration or falsification of records in Federal investigation

    Hugo Lowell (@hugolowell) August 12, 2022

  159. 159.

    JaySinWA

    Someone was wondering about how they justified taking the Sharpie altered hurricane map. Politico claims it contains the right to seize.

    Any evidence of the knowing alteration, destruction, or concealment of any government and/or Presidential Records,

    There was a lot of chatter at the time that his markup of the map was an alteration of a government document.

     

    The warrant has the FBI seize “Any evidence of the knowing alteration, destruction, or concealment of any government and/or Presidential Records, or of any documents with classification markings”— Betsy Woodruff Swan (@woodruffbets) August 12, 2022

  160. 160.

    Leto

    @Immanentize: exactly. There’s a huge process involved in this. Nuclear material (talking about the information, not the physical) connects so many different agencies that a shit ton of coordination over some of the smallest stuff has to be done. It’s not just… *wave tiny hands around* and poof! Declassified! We have an absolute metric shit ton of rules around all of this. BUT as we know, because we’re witnessing it firsthand, nobody in Trumpov world pays attention to the rules. Much to our continuing national detriment.

  163. 163.

    Leto

    @HumboldtBlue:
    That should be easy to verify.

    Sec. 3.7. Declassification Database.

    (a) The Director of the Information Security Oversight Office, in conjunction with those agencies that originate classified information, shall coordinate the linkage and effective utilization of existing agency databases of records that have been declassified and publicly released.

    (b) Agency heads shall fully cooperate with the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office in these efforts.

  164. 164.

    Ken

    @HumboldtBlue: I really must try that next spring with my tax returns. “They’re paid, even though neither the IRS nor my bank has any record of the payment.”

    Or maybe my vehicle license. “Officer, I renewed it, even though there’s no 2022 sticker on the plates.”

  166. 166.

    Anonymous At Work

    Gah! You blink by checking in with work and miss many fireworks.  I have caught up a ton but two requests.

    1. New thread with the concrete goods
    2. Does the warrant need the number of counts for each charge or just the charge in question?
  167. 167.

    Rick Taylor

    @Suzanne:

    John Cole suggested we had reached peak wingnut during the Bush administration. It seemed reasonable to me at the time. John quickly realized he was wrong, and that wingnut was an inexhaustible resource.

  168. 168.

    jonas

    @Mike S (Now with a Democratic Congressperson!): As Daniel Dale explains, NARA is still the custodian of the documents. The Obama Library Foundation was going to pay to have them digitized for future study, but the pandemic slowed down that process. They’re still all in the custody of NARA, which, like they were supposed to, went through the full archive at the end of the administration and sequestered all the classified stuff first.

    NARA is trying to get out ahead of this “Obama stole 30 million documents” meme, but it’s going to take more work.

  170. 170.

    Immanentize

    @JaySinWA: Exactly. AS FAR AS WE KNOW there are no charges yet related to this Trump problem. Of course, I have had plenty of experiences with sealed indictments!

    (Actually, in this case, I don’t expect any such to exist — at least not for Trump.)

  172. 172.

    Suzanne

    @Alison Rose 💙🌻💛:

    It’s that they’re filled with hatred, and he told them they were right to be so. 

    To be extra-clear…. They are filled with jealousy, and that turns to hatred.
    Think of the Trumpy people you know. (Not people who held their noses and voted for him. The diehard MAGAts.) Their lives suck. They know it, and they are deeply resentful about it. And they think they deserved than what they have, and they seek to tear down and delegitimize anyone doing better….minorities, women, “elitists”.

  173. 173.

    HumboldtBlue

    @Leto:

    Trump has no clue what he’s doing other than tossing out more bullshit to obfuscate and to feed his deluded followers so that Fox and the other wingnut wurlitzer outlets will amplify his bullshit.

  174. 174.

    Elizabelle

    For the Oh Jesus file.  From FTF NY Times:  David “Bobo” Brooks column:  Did the FBI Just Re-Elect Trump?

    No, I did not click on it, even for the reader comments.  Not gonna get played like that.

    Bobo and Maggs.  She being the court dwarf. And he is sounding. … kind of desperate.  From the headline.  Dog knows what’s in his column.

    Except:  I think its presence is really good for us. We are winning.  Because:  Bobo.

  175. 175.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @Suzanne: It’s not “dumb”.

    It’s hatred of the Other. And that’s why no matter what Trump does, the loyalty of his tribe is intact.

    Trump hates the same people they do, and for them, that’s more than enough.

  177. 177.

    jonas

    @MazeDancer: If he had actually, officially, declassified them, there would have been, you know, a record of that having taken place, you’d think. Driving off with them doesn’t do it.

    As the evergreen quote goes: “These weren’t very bright people and things got out of hand…”

  178. 178.

    UncleEbeneezer

    DOJ to Federal Judge: “Counsel for former President Trump—M. Evan Corcoran, Esq., and James Trusty, Esq.—have informed the government that the former President does not object to the government’s Motion to Unseal Limited Warrant Materials (Docket Entry 18).”

  182. 182.

    HumboldtBlue

    @Baud: ​ 

    Well, The National Archives must, someone tried to shoot up an FBI office yesterday. The faster they squash this bullshit the better and the harder it will be for it to crystallize in the right-wing fever swamp.

  184. 184.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Please take a moment and remember the name Heather Heyer today. It’s been five years since we lost her to white nationalist violence in Charlottesville. We will never forget her bravery to be there that day standing up for her community and basic human rights.

  185. 185.

    jonas

    @Elizabelle:David “Bobo” Brooks column:  Did the FBI Just Re-Elect Trump?

    Oh FFS. Almost as good as that ABC story on the jobs report the other day that just assumed it was going to suck and all they needed to do was fill in the figures. And I didn’t read the article of course, but what can the argument for this idea possibly be: that being under investigation for major crimes will energize his base *and* make millions who voted for Biden feel sorry for him and angry at the FBI for exposing a massive natsec breach? Sure, it’ll outrage his base, but also make everyone else (i.e. the majority) more committed than ever to see him disappear from public life forever, preferably by going to prison.

  186. 186.

    Leto

    @MazeDancer: got’em with the ole Al Capone maneuver!

    @HumboldtBlue: absolutely agree. It’d be nice for an enterprising reporter to call up the office and verify that though. It’d be verifying public information, so yeah.

  187. 187.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @Baud: Con artists understand that if a mark wants something bad enough, they’ll talk themselves into it, ignoring the voice inside their empty heads that’s telling them it’s bullshit.

  188. 188.

    Ken

    @JaySinWA: Who at MAL knew of existence of stored classified info & still holds, or did hold, security clearance?

    Oh, Jared…

    (That two billion from the Saudis is looking worse and worse.)

  190. 190.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    @Elizabelle: Oh, for Pete’s sake!

    BoBo, NPR, and all of the other nice, polite fascist coddling media denizens can take their pearls and go clutch them quietly in a dark corner and let the professionals do their thing.

    This is abuser-enabling logic at its worst. Heaven forbid these folks know anyone in a domestic abuse situation – think of the terrible advice they’d be giving out!

  191. 191.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Immanentize:

     

    Of course, I have had plenty of experiences with sealed indictments!

    And yet you still walk free, which isn’t encouraging for our dreams of seeing trump in prison!

  193. 193.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @Omnes Omnibus: I do wish Democratic voters had even a fraction of their message discipline, though. Blind as they are, they keep their eyes on the prize.

  195. 195.

    Ken

    @Leto: got’em with the ole Al Capone maneuver!

    They gave him tertiary syphilis? Hmm, it does explain a number of things….

  200. 200.

    jonas

    @Suzanne: Also, more than a few seem to struggle with mental health and addiction issues. Literally. The number of 1/6 defendants and other ultra-MAGA miscreants who eventually do something that gets them arrested or indicted claim mental instability, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc. just about 100% of the time.

  201. 201.

    bbleh

    @Anonymous At Work: It’s not an indictment or an arrest warrant, just a search warrant.  There needs to be probable cause to believe that there is evidence in a particular place that a crime under particular statutes has been committed, but it doesn’t necessarily name, much less formally charge, an individual.

  203. 203.

    Sean

    @Immanentize:

    Are you saying you don’t expect an indictment for trump? Just curious.

    (Actually, in this case, I don’t expect any such to exist — at least not for Trump.)

  204. 204.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @The Thin Black Duke:

    Donald Trump could jerk off into an American flag & his supporters would say that it demonstrates his unmatched passion for America. His supporters are pathetic trash whose patriotism & faith are rhetorical weapons only. They are as dumb, cruel & empty as their cult leader. — JL Cauvin, 2020

  206. 206.

    New Deal democrat

    @JaySinWA: The answer that is right under everyone’s noses is: Trump’s Secret Service detail.

    That detail would also have been present during Saudi Arabia’s golf tournament last week in Bedminster, NJ. Maybe one or more of the agents overheard conversations that led urgency to obtaining the documents that the Secret Service was aware were still at MAL?

  207. 207.

    Elizabelle

    @The Thin Black Duke:   Please couple “hatred” with “fear.

    Truth is, the radicals and other conservatives are far more fear-driven than we are.

    Our fears are rational.  Climate change.  Unfair elections.  School shootings and shootings all over the place.

    Because too many of these weasels cannot feel safe without packing heat.  And the Roberts Court has just given those people a green light to expand their encroachment on the rights of the rest of us.

  209. 209.

    Roger Moore

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    That whole “Obama did it too!1” thing raises the question of why didn’t Trump’s DOJ do anything about it IF (and that’s a big if) Obama really did it.

    Not necessarily.  The basic idea is that Obama doing it- and Trump’s DOJ not prosecuting him for it- proves that it’s legal and above board.  Again, though, the facts are wrong.  The documents from the Obama administration he’s talking about are A) not classified and B) at the presidential library being looked after by the National Archives, not in Obama’s personal possession under the control of his personal staff.

  210. 210.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @Omnes Omnibus: Hey, I second that emotion. Their single-minded focus always winds up goose-stepping into a dead end. It’s not substainable. Still, too many misguided folks on our side worry about changing the batteries in the smoke detector when the house is on fire.

  213. 213.

    Leto

    @Roger Moore: you mean Obama is following the law? GTFO of here!

    Part 4. Safeguarding

    Sec. 4.1. General Restrictions on Access.

    (e) Persons authorized to disseminate classified information outside the executive branch shall ensure the protection of the information in a manner equivalent to that provided within the executive branch.

    Also I’m sure that all that information in the future Obama Library went through the proper review, as his admin was very meticulous about that sort of thing*.

    *”that sort of thing” being following/respecting the rule of law.

  214. 214.

    Suzanne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    To be fair, that kind of blind hatred is pretty dumb. 

    Yes. Hatred comes from somewhere. If you are smart and successful and capable and functional, you’re not seething with hatred. The inverse is that, if you’re hateful, you’re probably pretty dumb.

  216. 216.

    Suzanne

    @Elizabelle:

    Because too many of these weasels cannot feel safe without packing heat. 

    Eh. For most of them, they cannot feel dominant without packing heat.

  217. 217.

    Scout211

    Fox News last night aired a fake photo of the Judge Magistrate.  These newspeople have no shame. :  link

    Fox News has drawn criticism for sharing a photoshopped image of a US magistrate judge, Bruce Reinhart, who signed the search warrant on the recent FBI search of Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago property, sitting on a private plane across from the convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell.
    Filling in for Fox News host Tucker Carlson on Wednesday, guest host Brian Kilmeade showed viewers a digitally altered photo of Reinhart holding a bottle of liquor and a pack of Oreo cookies while sitting across from Maxwell with his feet in her lap.

    “This is the judge in charge of the … of the warrant and we’ll see if he’s going to release it next. He likes Oreos and whiskey,” Kilmeade said.

  218. 218.

    different-church-lady

    There’s a kind of flow chart for this:

    *He didn’t do it

    *He did it, but it’s not illegal

    *He did it, and it’s illegal, but it’s not all that bad

    *Okay, it’s really bad, but OTHER PEOPLE DID IT MORE! (This is the step we’re at.)

    *He did it, it’s illegal, it’s really bad, and HE’S GOING TO GET AWAY WITH IT AND THAT MAKES HIM MORE AWESOME THAN EVER!!1!

  220. 220.

    eversor

    Looks like Trump took SIGINT docs along with a NOC list while he made off with the nuclear stuff.  Which, good fucking lord.  Can we shoot him at the hot dog stand in the Pentagon and toss him in the Potamac yet?   When can we all start screaming treason?  Shooting him would be too good  you have to have served in uniform to get the firing squad hang his ass.  At this point hell with it draw and quarter his ass on national TV.

    It’s mind blowing.  At some point their has to be a price to pay for all this.  How did this even happen.

  221. 221.

    Roger Moore

    @Mallard Filmore:

    Actually, beverage sizes are one area where the US is actually switching to the metric system.  We haven’t switched completely, but it’s very common to see water and soft drinks in metric sizes, especially 1L and 2L bottles.  People even happily call them by those names rather than bothering to use the converted values.  Wine and liquor have completely converted.  I can’t remember the last time I saw either of those in a fifth rather than 750mL.

  224. 224.

    MisterForkbeard

    @eversor:

    Looks like Trump took SIGINT docs along with a NOC list while he made off with the nuclear stuff.

    Where is that coming from? I thought we didn’t have confirmation of any of the contents beyond the fact that it included Top Secret and Compartmentalized info.

  226. 226.

    NotMax

    @Scout211

    Photoshopping him in bed with a dead girl and a live boy beyond the skills of the Fox graphics department?

    “Hm. Needs a final touch. Can you paste in a crack pipe?”

    //

  229. 229.

    Mark von Wisco

    Beautiful flower. I planted several dahlias for the first time this year. Some of the plants have buds, but no blossoms yet!

  230. 230.

    jonas

    @p.a.:

      I’d be really surprised if the SS had anything to do with this. Most of the guys on Trump’s detail are probably fanbois and wouldn’t do something to ruin the sweet gig they have following their hero from gaudy country club to gaudy country club.

  231. 231.

    WaterGirl

    @UncleEbeneezer: I was pretty sure that would be what the lawyers wanted to do, but I wondered if Trump would balk at that.

    I imagine that means that Trump must understand that he is in some deep shit here.  I wasn’t sure that it was possible for him to understand that, so someone must have slapped him upside the head.  Virtually, of course.

  238. 238.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @HumboldtBlue: but there’s no golf course, basically a supper club with a pool, spa and a sort of hotel, as I understand it. Not even sure if the place still has beach access? the aerial shots make it look like there’s a road running between the building/s and the ocean

  240. 240.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Has Willard “Mitt” Romney who a decade ago was running for president on the theory that he was tougher than Barack Obama and could protect us from the Soviet Union said anything about the fact that Vladimir Putin’s favorite American had a stash stolen maximally classified secrets at his tacky south Florida supper club?

  241. 241.

    delphinium

    @Scout211: Kilmeade is already going with the ‘it was a joke’ defense. Despite the bad photoshop, am guessing there were many FOX viewers who thought it was real, so damage is done.

  243. 243.

    lgerard

    Have to love this description on the inventory list

    11A – Miscellaneous Top Secret Documents

  244. 244.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Has George W Bush finally decided to speak up and out about the man his historic incompetence helped get in the White House in the first place?

    Jebbie gonna keep his head down in the continued delusion that the country needs to go through another round of Bush Clan Oedipal Loop-de-Loop with Pee?

    What do they think they’re Daddy would do? Did Big Bad Bar really take all her hate with her to the grave?

  248. 248.

    germy shoemangler

    @livewyre:

    Yes, newsweek is no longer a reliable source.  I don’t know who owns it now but the good journalists either quit or got laid off from that place.

  249. 249.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    Wait wait wait wait wait.

    Is that confirmed anywhere? Trump was holding on to a NOC list?

    To be clear, are we talking about “Non-Official Cover” as in the intelligence operatives undercover abroad who don’t have any legal cover protecting them from being disappeared off the planet if they’re found out?

    As in the MacGuffin from the first Mission Impossible movie?

    And TFG had one of those lists at his goddamned golf club?

    Whiskey tango actual foxtrot?!?

  250. 250.

    MisterForkbeard

    @eversor: If so, yeah. Though newsweek has not exactly been on fire about this story – they flubbed a major detail earlier by stating that Garland had been kept in the dark about the raid.

  252. 252.

    Geoduck

    @NotMax: They didn’t do it themselves, they snagged it off the Internet somewhere, the creator’s name was still on it and everything. And when it came up on the screen, the guy reading the text paused, perhaps realizing just how bad it looked for Fox.

  253. 253.

    Burnspbesq

    @New Deal democrat:

    That almost certainly means at very least the affidavit used to demonstrate probable cause, and it could be read – and he will read it that way, as it’s to his advantage – as meaning the release of the DoJ’s entire case file concerning the investigation leading up to the search.

    There is no fucking way that’s happening. That’s all Rule 6(e) material.

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