Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

This blog will pay for itself.

The jury literally has a bell they can ring to force Trump to show up on command. Greatest thing ever!

The frogs are rarely mistaken.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

ha ha ha! Nice try weird people.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

There’s always a light at the end of the frog.

Live so that if you miss a day of work people aren’t hoping you’re dead.

How any woman could possibly vote for this smug smarmy piece of misogynistic crap is beyond understanding.

Somebody needs to explain to DeSantis that nobody needs to do anything to make him look bad.

Be a traveling stable for those who can’t find room at the inn.

“Cheese and Kraken paired together for the appetizer trial.”

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

Jack be nimble, jack be quick, hurry up and indict this prick.

They are lying in pursuit of an agenda.

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War For Ukraine Day 177: A Very Brief Update

War For Ukraine Day 177: A Very Brief Update

by | 51 Comments

This post is in: , , , , , , ,

I wound up getting up far earlier than expected because I just woke up and couldn’t fall back asleep, so tonight’s update will be brief.

The video of President Zelenskyy’s address is below. The English transcript is after the jump (emphasis mine):

Ukrainians!

All Europeans!

For 177 days already, the report on the events in Ukraine is important for the entire continent.

Ukrainian diplomats, our partners, representatives of the UN and the IAEA are working out the specific details of the mission to be sent to the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. With this mission, the restoration of full security at the ZNPP and in Enerhodar can begin. And I am grateful to everyone who joined this work and initiative.

If Russian blackmail with radiation continues, this summer may go down in the history of various European countries as one of the most tragic of all time. Because not a single instruction at any nuclear power plant in the world envisages a procedure in case a terrorist state turns a nuclear power plant into a target.

Of course, today it is worth paying attention to another aspect of Russian blackmail in the field of energy. Gas supplies to Germany via the first Nord Stream are again being restricted and absurd statements are being made again that it is allegedly possible to compensate for something via Nord Stream 2. These “streams” are needed by Russia exclusively to supply problems to Europe, not to help someone there with gas. Now it is absolutely obvious.

The longer the terrorist state remains on the European and world energy market, the longer it will not be stable. And the sooner everyone in Europe prepares their energy systems to exist without any supply of energy carriers from Russia, the sooner they will be able to calmly go through any winter.

Today there was a very important visit to Ukraine by Eurocities representatives led by the mayor of Florence. This Association unites the mayors of more than 150 European cities, as well as representatives of dozens of other partner cities.

We will cooperate with them directly – Ukrainian cities and communities with European cities and communities.

The key issue is, of course, the rebuilding of our cities. The relevant memorandum was signed today. But not only this will be the subject of our important cooperation.

The modern development of any country is primarily the development of cities, the creation of new opportunities and institutions in cities, the exchange of experience between cities and urban institutions. And therefore, these are new jobs, greater social capital and higher level of security for people.

On the Ukrainian side, the subject of relations with the Association of European Cities will be our Congress of Local and Regional Authorities. I want to assure that every city of our state will benefit from this. We are interested in sustainable development throughout the territory of Ukraine – and it will be so. Without any exceptions.

And today I want to address separately the residents of all our cities of Ukraine, which are subjected to constant brutal shelling by Russia. Kharkiv, Mykolaiv, all the cities of Donbas, the Dnipropetrovsk region, the Zaporizhzhia region… All those who experience this constant horror of the destruction of life and the destruction of everything that gives life normality. We will not leave any of these strikes unanswered. We will establish the identity of every occupier who gives orders and executes these strikes at cities. And we will bring them all to justice in one way or another. No murderer will hide.

And we will certainly restore everything that the terrorists try to leave in ruins. The word “ruins” will never be a word about Ukraine, will never be a word about our cities. Russia will definitely not succeed in this.

Eternal glory to all who bring our victory closer!

Eternal glory to all who fight for our beautiful, strong Ukraine, for our people!

Glory to Ukraine!

Here is former NAVDEVGRU Squadron Leader Chuck Pfarrer’s assessment, including geospatial analysis, of the situation at the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant:

And here is his updated assessment and map for today regarding the battle for Kherson:

Here is the Ukrainian MOD’s operational update for today:

The operational update regarding the russian invasion on 06.00, on August 19, 2022

Glory to Ukraine! The one hundred seventy seventh (177) day of the heroic resistance of the Ukrainian people to a russian military invasion continues.

There are no changes on the Volyn, Polissya and Siversky directions. The enemy shelled the village of Pavlivka, Sumy oblast, with artillery.

In the Kharkiv direction, the enemy fired tanks, barrel and jet artillery in the areas of Kharkiv, Chuhuiv, Zolochiv, Protopopivka, Sosnivka, Korobochkyne, Shestakove, Milova, Duvanka, Husarivka and Prudyanka settlements.

Strikes from planes and helicopters near Yavirske, Stary Saltiv, Lebyazhe and Zalyman.

In the Slovyansk direction, he carried out fire damage from artillery of various types in the areas near Dibrivny, Dovhenky, Virnopilla, Sulyhivka, Chepil, Mazanivka, and Bohorodychne.

The enemy tried to conduct assault operations in the directions Barabashivka – Karnaukhivka, Sulyhivka – Dibrivne, Sulyhivka – Nova Dmytrivka.

In the Kramatorsk direction, shelling was recorded near Siversk, Rozdolivka, Hryhorivka, Sydorove, and Pryshyb.

In the Bakhmut direction, the impact of fire from tanks, barrel and jet artillery was noted in the areas of the settlements of Bakhmut, Soledar, Berestove, Vesele, Zaitseve, Yakovlivka, Kodema, Spirne, Ivano-Daryivka, Bilohorivka and Zalizne. The occupiers struck with attack aircraft in the Soledar area.

The enemy waged offensive battles in the direction of Spirne – Vyimka, Strapivka – Soledar, Volodymyrivka – Soledar, Klynove – Bakhmut, Vershyna – Kodema. The enemy’s units did not succeed in the indicated areas and retreated.

Battles continue in the direction Pokrovske – Bakhmutske.

In the Avdiyivka direction, artillery shelling was recorded near Avdiyivka, Maryinka, Krasnohorivka, Pisky, Opytne, Pervomaiske, Nevelske, Novobakhmutivka, and Netaylove. The enemy launched airstrikes near Maryinka, Novomykhailivka, and Pavlivka.

Conducts assault operations in the direction of Lozove – Pervomaiske, hostilities continue.

In the Novopavlivskyi direction, the areas of Pavlivka, Volodymyrivka, Velyka Novosilka, Vuhledar, Novomykhailivka, Prechistivka and Zolota Nyva settlements were affected by fire.

In the Zaporizhzhia direction, the enemy used tanks and artillery near Shevchenko, Charivne, Preobrazhenka, Zaliznychne, Hulyaipole, Novosilka, Stepove, Vremivka, and Dorozhnyaky.

In the South Buh direction, the enemy continued shelling our positions from tanks, barrel and rocket artillery along the battle line. He carried out an airstrike in the area of ​​Mykolaivske settlement.

In the Black Sea and Sea of ​​Azov, there are three Kalibr sea-based cruise missile carriers on combat duty.

We believe in the Armed Forces! Together we will win! Glory to Ukraine!

We believe in the Armed Forces of Ukraine! Together we will win!

Glory to Ukraine!

Here is the British Ministry of Defense’s assessment for today:

They did not post an updated map today.

NBC is reporting that pro-Ukrainian saboteurs – read that as Ukrainian partisans – are responsible for the recent attacks on Russian military targets in Russian occupied Crimea:

DNIPRO, Ukraine — Pro-Ukrainian saboteurs were involved in the recent spate of explosions at Russian military sites in Crimea, a Ukrainian government official told NBC News.

The series of blasts hit military depots and airbases in the annexed peninsula over the past week, hinting at a growing ability by Ukraine’s military or its backers to strike deep behind enemy lines, a development that could shift the dynamics of the war.

Kyiv has stopped short of publicly claiming responsibility for the explosions.The government official spoke on the condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to disclose information about the Crimea strikes to journalists.

Experts have speculated that guerrilla fighters, known colloquially as “partisans,” may have played a role, given the nature of the blasts.

The official declined to say whether the Ukrainian military or special forces were also involved in the attacks. But he added, “Only thanks to the people who oppose Putin in the occupied territories and in Russia today, resistance is possible.”

More at the link!

ITV News reporter Emma Burrows reported by Twitter thread on a not for attribution briefing by a western intelligence official regarding recent events in Ukraine:

  • NEW: Western intelligence official: ‘What we are seeing now is (Russia’s) Black Sea Fleet taking a very defensive position, trying to avoid getting in the line of fire. This is a proud fleet with a long history. The credibility of that entity has been diminished.’
  • NEW: Western intelligence official on recent explosions in Russia/Crimea/Russian-occupied territory ‘I think we can assume attacks by Ukrainians behind enemy lines.’ Targets such as Belgorod (in Russia) ‘are legitimate targets which don’t risk Russian territorial integrity.’
  • NEW: Western intelligence official: ‘I don’t see [explosions/attacks behind Russian lines] diminishing. I think we’ve seen an uptick of those events.’ Western intelligence official puts attacks by Ukraine down to a ‘combination of incredibly brave people and new capabilities.’
  • NEW: Western intelligence official suggests Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant is being used by Russia & Ukraine in a battle for the ‘information environment.’ Says infrastructure there is built to ‘cope with a civilian airliner flying into it…direct fire is not our concern.’
  • NEW: Western intelligence official says ‘The issue we are concerned about [at Zaporizhzhia power plant] is the water cooling of nuclear reactors. If the grid power supply is disrupted, it pushes them to back up generators. If they fail…we are in a more serious situation.’
  • NEW: Western intelligence official says right now ‘there are diesel generators & a workforce [at Zaporizhzhia] to mitigate risk.’ Says ZPP provides 20% of Ukraine’s electricity. ‘This is hybrid warfare…If this were connected to Crimean grid it would be a sign of Russification’
  • NEW: Western intelligence official says Russians are starting to ‘run out of ammunition.’ ‘We have a large range of evidence to suggest munitions are being depleted…inc munitions coming out of deep storage.’
  • NEW: Western official says falling Russian munition stocks ‘ultimately will start to impair Russia’s ability to launch offensives.’ Says Russia has merged BTGS & is having a ‘terrible time trying to reconstitute its forces…this is not a good way to improve combat effectiveness’
  • NEW: Western intelligence official says war in Ukraine is now in ‘different stage.’ Conflict is not at the ‘high point’ when there was constant shelling in Donbas. This is ‘partly because both sides have become more conscious that this is a marathon, not a sprint.’
  • NEW: Western intelligence official says will be important to see if a vote on incorporating Russian-occupied Kherson region of Ukraine will be held on 11th Sept at same time as Russian regional elections. ‘Even if it is absorbed into Russia, the Ukrainians will still attack them’
  • NEW: Looking further ahead, a western intelligence official told reporters, ‘resupplying & rebuilding forces is going to be an essential part of what takes place over winter’ in Ukraine. Key also to see if Ukraine continues to achieve a ‘kinetic effect’ behind Russian lines.’
  • NEW: a western intelligence official said Ukrainian attacks behind Russian lines are having ‘a significant psychological effect on the Russian leadership.’ They also said, at the moment, the war in Ukraine is at a ‘moment of near operational standstill.’
  • The western intelligence official said that attacks like these by Ukraine represent an ‘astute economy of effort’ & show Ukrainian special forces have ‘ability to operate from behind Russian lines,’ as well as ‘projecting from a distance.’
  • The western official said Russian attacks on Ukraine are continuing: Kharkiv is now suffering ‘one of its most painful periods of the war.’ While Ukraine may not yet be able to retake ground, this assessment indicates that the west believes things are going badly for Russia.

I know that the second part of that WaPo series was published today. The bottom line is that Russian intelligence appeared to be high on its own supply regarding Ukraine and Ukrainians. I’ll deal with it tomorrow.

That’s enough for tonight.

Your daily Patron!

There is something weird with the embed code for the official Patron TikTok posted today. I tried the code for yesterday’s and it embeds without any problem. So if you want to see today’s official Patron TikTok video, click here!

Open thread!

Reader Interactions

51Comments

  1. 1.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    this assessment indicates that the west believes things are going badly for russia

    Yes please thank you.

    Even though by now it’s well established, I continue to be so impressed with the fight Ukraine has put up and the resistance of all kinds they’ve displayed. What they’ve been able to do and keep doing against an enemy that is ostensibly stronger…it’s going to be quite a story for history to tell.

    I love that photo of Patron in the grass. Reminds me of my cat getting ready to pounce on a toy.

    Thank you as always, Adam.

  3. 3.

    Subsole

    I may be a horrible person, but after what they did to us in 2016, there is something deeply, deeply satisfying in America freeing itself from the Afghanistan quagmire just in time to watch the Russian wolf slowly drown in Ukrainian quicksand…

  4. 4.

    WaterGirl

    @Subsole:

    There is something deeply, deeplysatisfying in America freeing itself from the Afghanistan quagmire just in time to watch the Russian wolf slowly drown in Ukrainian quicksand.

    If only that could be short enough for a rotating tag.

  5. 5.

    NutmegAgain

    @MagdaInBlack: At my sister’s house, you had to be careful to push the chairs all the way under the table. Sammy (Jack Russell Terriorist) would take a flying leap from chair, grab a sandwich from the table, and be gone in a flash…

  6. 6.

    eversor

    @Subsole:

    It’s fine, nothing wrong in taking pleasure from this.  We had stupid leaders who got us into a stupid situation and then vain leaders who didn’t want to take the hit of getting us out of it.

    The horrors on those who are/were innocent are still horrors.   But watching Putin fumble his murderous ass into making Ukraine a true nation blooded in combat with a national hero and father (make no mistake about that they have a real father now) while his Army gets proven to be a joke, his spies good for nothing but sushi poisoning, and his mercs get blown to pieces should be satisfying.  Especially after he fucked with us and installed Trump and what TFG tried to do to Ukraine.  This is karmic justice on an epic scale.

    I’d say enjoy the smiles, have a beer, pop the popcorn.  Just save the champagne and cheers for when the Ukrainians are doing it in the streets and let’s all hold our breath for what this means for the Russian “Federation”.   We may all be watching that shit show disintegrate yet again and who knows what that looks like.

  8. 8.

    Betty

    I wonder if one of the reasons the partisans can be so effective is partly because Russia had demanded Ukrainians give up their language and speak Russian. It makes it easier for them to operate in Russian territory.

  9. 9.

    Gin & Tonic

    @eversor:

    into making Ukraine a true nation

    It’s late and I’ve had a long day, so I’m going to be charitable and assume you are just ignorant.

  10. 10.

    Kelly

    Open Source Intelligence guy Rob Lee https://twitter.com/RALee85 has a lot of pics of Russian air defenses firing at who knows what. Kinda hoping they’re so nervous they’re wasting ammo on on low value target or just shooting blindly. Sending otherwise harmless cheap drones with a big radar signature to draw fire seems like the sort of devious tactic Ukraine is good at.

  11. 11.

    kalakal

    I’ve been wondering just how long Russian artillery ammunition could last. They’ve been burning through the stuff at an incredible for months, using it as a substitute for ground forces, their industries a joke, if they run low their armies toast.

  13. 13.

    eversor

    @Gin & Tonic:

    They’ve had a complex history and lived under Russia for too long.  Their past several hundred years have been a wreck.  Many nations true forms and borders that are not violated anymore didn’t start after until vicious combat.   Zelensky will be the father of a Ukraine that emerges which is out of the shadows of it’s tormentors and takes a new look at the world as a true equal.  They’ve had the shit end of the stick for a while.

    They wouldn’t be the first European nation that got attacked and by luck had a leader who changed everything and is considered the new father of it.  These things happen.  Not isolated to Europe either.  Ask the Turks!

  16. 16.

    eversor

    @Medicine Man:

    They aren’t a punch line.  But it’s beastly bully who finally bit off more than they can actually chew.  Some of us have family from there and seeing Putin get served his own shit is at least karmic.

  18. 18.

    Subsole

     

     

    @eversor: Yeah, that breakup is going to be…not satisfying at all. We can only hope it ends quickly. A great wave of Russian refugees is probably not going to do wonders for Hungary, Poland or the various ‘stans.

     

    Vlad’s gonna be the 21st century Julius Evola, isn’t he? Strange little man who helped unleash a vast, blood-dimmed reactionary wave to hold back the tide of Modernity – and ended up sinking the boats he was trying to save.

  19. 19.

    Medicine Man

    @eversor: ​
     
    I know they’re not a joke, but treating them like one on socials bothers them. Also, force-feeding tankies shit on Twitter is one of my guilty pleasures. I’m saying that I find all the copes bitter knowing the real costs.

    For what it’s worth, I too enjoy watching the people they call “khokols” humiliate the servile bastards.

  20. 20.

    Subsole

    @Medicine Man: Not so much a punchline. Watching the bully get his pubic symphesis rearranged is satisfying; it is not amusing. It is satisfying because the pain makes it less likely the bully will hurt others. But satisfaction is a long way from laughter.

     

    @eversor: Seconded. This man has unleashed so much awfulness into the world. Enabled so much destruction. I might actually crack open a bottle when he dies – him, Trump, Murdoch and Thiel.

  21. 21.

    Subsole

     

    Zelensky is going to be akin to the Pilsudski of Ukraine (though I fervently hope his later career follows a very different, more enlightened, trajectory).

  23. 23.

    Andrya

    @Subsole:   Two of my sources, linguist John McWhorter and historian Anne Applebaum, both speak russian and both say they cannot understand Ukrainian.  Applebaum says that to the extent that she can decipher Ukrainian, she depends on the fact that she also speaks Polish.  (McWhorter acknowledges that his russian is weak, but he mostly gets russian, but not Ukrainian.)

  25. 25.

    Carlo Graziani

    @Betty: I believe the reason for SOF’s effectiveness in Crimea is actually an interesting political dilemma facing Putin.

    Crimea is not an armed camp. It is nothing like, say the environs of Kherson, or Melitopol, or Donetsk. In places like those, the SOF would have to operate with far more circumspection, and would accomplish much less. These are in the war zone. All vehicle traffic is military, and must be authorized with appropriate paperwork, which is checked at many roadblock checkpoints. All SOF movements would be risky, and necessarily off major roads, or off road altogether.

    Crimea is a different story altogether. Up to mid-August, the Russians were still persuaded that it was such a safe rear area that tourists were still sunning themselves there. And it is important to the regime that Crimea should be regarded by Russians as their own vacation playground. The Kerch Straits bridge was an enormous prestige investment to this end. The normality of Russian Crimea is a central organizing principle of Putin’s world view.

    So having the”Special Military Operation” not only graduate into a full-scale “War”, but also bleed into Crimea, and scare off the tourists, driving away the TV dreams of military triumphs that the’ve been ingesting is a calamity for Putin. He needs this to stop, and he’s doubtless shrieking at the military to make it stop.

    Here’s where it gets interesting: the military could stop the SOF in principle, but only at the cost of turning most of Crimea into the same kind of utterly military police-controlled zone that the southern war theater is already. They would set up checkpoints everywhere, patrol everywhere, break into people’s homes, stop, bring in and question thousands of people, probably, almost all with no knowledge of SOF doings. And that would totally destroy the normality of Russian holiday life in Crimea. Putin would never tolerate this for a femtosecond — he’d probably get the dry heaves just contemplating such a plan.

    But if he forbids the military from locking down Crimea, then the military is stuck with half-measures appropriate to a domestic terrorist threat in a civil society like, say, the Red Brigades in Italy in the 1970s, instead of a military insurrection with secure communication lines to support from a bordering combatant power. SOF would continue to play merry hell with their ammo dumps and other facilities. And Putin’s shrieks would get louder and shriller. Which would likely really piss off the military.

    It’s beautiful.

  26. 26.

    Cathie from Canada

    What did everyone think of the Washington Post series articles (gift articles attached) ?

    1.”Road to war: U.S. struggled to convince allies, and Zelensky, of risk of invasion”  https://wapo.st/3JZI5oF  (and a description of how the Post researched this series. https://wapo.st/3QMK6a2)
    2. “Russian spies misread Ukraine and misled the Kremlin as war loomed”  https://wapo.st/3wf1sVo
    A third article in the series – how Kyiv was saved – is still to come.
    Also, the first article included Zelenskyy’s explanation of his decision not to undertake evacuations prior to the Russian invasion – here is a follow-up article on this:  “Zelensky faces outpouring of criticism over failure to warn of war” https://wapo.st/3wCXndR

  27. 27.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @Cathie from Canada: As to that last one, I can’t claim any expertise in these areas, but I find it repugnant that anyone could say Zelenskyy bears responsibility for russian atrocities. It’s not like putin sent him texts explaining the barbarism his minions were going to engage in. And I think it’s in quite bad faith for people to take his comments about worries over what a pre-invasion panic would have done to the economy and twist it into “he cares more about money than people.”

    It’s not my place to tell Ukrainians how to process everything, but I find it disturbing and reminiscent of russian disinfo. We know they have this supposed plan to instigate a smear campaign against Zelenskyy, and it feels to me like a lot of people are falling right into the trap.

  28. 28.

    Spadizzly

    @Subsole:  Hope you don’t mind me asking, are you able to distinguish them just by sound?

    @Andrya:  There are podcasts on Ukrainian public radio where the conversation takes place in both languages, where one person speaks Ukrainian, and the other, russian, with no apparent gaps in understanding and the conversation is seamless.  https://hromadske.radio/en

  29. 29.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @Alison Rose 💙🌻💛: Also, I find it baffling that people are acting like “the West was warning Ukraine but Ze didn’t fully believe them” is some kind of brand new unearthed secret. The warnings from the West were not made in code, any dipshit with access to any kind of media could’ve been aware of them. Zelenskyy wasn’t hiding in an attic for months before the invasion–he did a fucking press conference with Western media in January where he, yes, downplayed the risks and told people there was no need to panic. That happened! On TV! On Earth! Why is this article acting like this is  shocking new developments that no one had any awareness of before?

    And what in the entire fuck do these people who are now complaining think he should’ve said to them in February? “Holy fuck, you guys, putin’s coming, get out while you still can”? How would that have made him look as a leader? Exactly the version that putin wanted people to believe he was. As he said in the previous interview, if his admin had been running around tearing their hair out and telling everyone war was coming and they should run away, then russia’s plot to overthrow Kyiv in three days might just have come to fruition.

    And what about everything Ze has done since Feb 24? Staying in the country, speaking directly to the people every day, visiting the front lines, visiting wounded soldiers and bereaved families, spending an ungodly amount of hours on the phone securing support and weapons and money from all around Europe and the globe, getting Ukraine the fucking EU candidacy with crazy speed…all of that means nothing to people because he made the decision that avoiding a nationwide freakout was the right move?

    I’m just…I don’t like this. He’s been praised and looked up to and admired and lauded for months, and rightly so, and then days after news reports about russia’s scheme to discredit him and smear him and sow discord in his country against him come to light, we get this shit. That is too convenient for me.

    And now I’ll shut up, sorry.

  30. 30.

    Spadizzly

    @Alison Rose 💙🌻💛: putin made his intentions abundantly clear in his revanchist, ahistorical, hateful screed from July of last year, and it’s goddamn offensive for Westerners to suggest that Ukraine was caught unprepared, in this, the 8th year of war.

    IMO you have nothing to apologize for.

  31. 31.

    Andrya

    @Spadizzly:   A very large proportion of Ukrainians grow up familiar with both languages.  That doesn’t necessarily mean speaking the other language- growing up in California, I understand some Spanish due to childhood/teen exposure, but I do not speak Spanish.  This would be much more the case in Ukraine.  This is not the same  as the languages being mutually intelligible.

    Also, the distinction between “mutually intelligible” and “not mutually intelligible” is not hard-and-fast.  I’ve mentioned before my Scottish grandfather, born in the Scottish Hebrides in 1888- as a young man he spoke a Highland Scots variety of English that most Americans would find it impossible to understand.   He learned standard English in the British army in WW1.  Because of my grandfather, I understand (but cannot speak) Highland Scots English- but I have a lot of trouble understanding Australian English speakers.

    Bottom line- language is fascinating but complicated.

  32. 32.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Alison Rose 💙🌻💛:

    And I think it’s in quite bad faith for people to take his comments about worries over what a pre-invasion panic would have done to the economy and twist it into “he cares more about money than people.”

    Two thoughts (and I agree completely with you):

    1. I read Ze’s words about $7B/mo, etc.  It was clear from context that he was saying: “if we’d warned people the invasion was real, they’d have fled, tax revenues would have gone thru the floor, we wouldn’t have been able to pay anybody, and the state would have collapsed.  Then Russia really would have conquered Kyiv in three days, FFS!”
    2. I’m reminded of Biden’s AFG withdrawal.  It was well-executed as any withdrawal could have been.  And as was pointed-out at the time, the govt kicked the airlift into high gear *before* the date that that “dissent telegram” claimed the govt would fall — like, a *month* before that date.  I mean, as with #1 above, if Biden had come out and said “the govt’s falling, you need to get out NOW”, that would in itself have caused the govt to fall, that much sooner!

    The problem, I think, is that the people who write these articles, are moral idiots.  They simply cannot understand that protecting people, actual living humans, can involve making distasteful decisions.  These journos think the only time you make a distasteful decision, is when you get paid big time for it.

    Moral idiots.

  34. 34.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Carlo Graziani:

    Police surveillance, expropriation, forced disappearances, humiliation, abuse, checkpoints, regular house searches, confiscation of goods – all happening while Russians were vacationing on the seaside in “peaceful” Crimea
    — Yan Matusevich (@ymatusik) August 19, 2022

  35. 35.

    Carlo Graziani

    @Gin & Tonic: This is undoubtedly true. But not to the extent of reproducing the lockdown that exists in, say, Melitopol and its suburbs.

    To be clear: to reproduce in Crimea the security that the Russian army has from SOF operations in the Southern theatre, it would have to basically extend that theatre, or at least the MP control existing there, to large parts of Crimea. Without wishing to minimize the gross abuses that you’re flagging, this would amount taking matters to a very different level.

  36. 36.

    Subsole

    @Spadizzly: Very late reply, and deepest apologies for that.

    I am utterly untrained in either language. The words I have heard sound different enough to be distinct, but similar enough to draw a line between. Names, places, that sort of thing.

    That may be the Russians modifying Ukrainian words and vice-versa. Kiev versus Keev, forex. Volodymyr vs Vladimir.

    I was asking because I am not sure how much is common-root, and how much is cross-pollination or loan-words.

     

    @Andrya: AND the situation is made clearer. Thanks.

    Speaking of the subtleties of language. It sounds a bit like Mandarin vs Cantonese. I have heard that dynamic described as “a duck and a goose talking. We know it’s Chinese, but have NO idea what you’re trying to say.”

  38. 38.

    Another Scott

    @Subsole: In grad school I went to see Repentance with a friend who knew some Russian.

    She didn’t understand the non-Russian dialog (turns out it was Georgian, not Ukrainian).

    Languages – even seemingly related ones – are complicated!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  39. 39.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Another Scott: Well, to be fair to your friend, russian and Georgian are *completely* unrelated.

    Russian, Ukrainian and Polish are all Slavic languages, so they do have common roots, and not really that long ago. However, Ukrainian is closer to Polish (and to Belarusian) than it is to russian. The reason a great many Ukrainian-born Ukrainians are comfortable in both is due to constant exposure – not just school (for those who attended prior to independence) but media of all forms. The language is largely unavoidable in Ukraine. Someone who learns Ukrainian outside of Ukraine (emigres of various generations and destinations) doesn’t have that exposure and is unlikely to understand much of spoken russian. Russians, as a rule, are not exposed to Ukrainian and will not understand it well – and many will refuse even to try.

    But even within Ukraine there are dialects of varying degrees of intelligibility, depending on region and (in the western part) on the neighboring country. I have a friend from Uzhhorod, very close to the Hungarian border who can, if he chooses to, speak a trans-Carpathian dialect that I can barely make out.

  40. 40.

    kalakal

    @Another Scott: In the Yom Kippur war in 1973 the Egyptians used SA-2/3s ( I think) as anti tank missiles but that was a desperation move in the face of Israeli armored assaults. In WW2 the German 88mm was devastating against tanks, it was an originally an AA gun that troops had used in desperation against British armor. The British did the same with their 3.5″ AA guns.

    What the Russians are doing with the S300s is odd and seems to be a different kind of desperation. They’re not using them to desperately repel assaults like the examples above but as deliberate long range surface attack weapons. The Egyptian SAMs had a range of up to 30 miles but were never used this way.

    They must have gone through their stock of SSMs and are chucking poorly guided lumps of metal and HE at Ukranian civilians out of spite, not to any military purpose

  41. 41.

    Andrya

    @Another Scott:  This is probably way too late- I’m probably posting to a dead thread- but Georgian is not at all related to Russian, despite geographical proximity.  Ukrainian, Polish, Serbs-Croatian, Czech, Slovak, Slovenian, Bulgarian, and russian are Slavic languages within the Indo-European family- distantly related to Hindi, Farsi (modern Persian), Greek, English, Armenian, and Albanian (among many others).  Georgian is a Kartvelian language, a language family restricted (as far as I know) to the Caucasus.

  42. 42.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Gin & Tonic: When I worked in France, there was a joke among the Italian&Spanish postdocs, that they could speak French by dropping all the vowels.  And that their French colleagues could speak Italian by adding-back-in all the missing vowels.

    They’re two different languages, but with a common root.  They diverged a long time ago.  But they’re not completely dissimilar.  I wonder if that’s the case with Russian and Ukrainian.

  43. 43.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Chetan Murthy: I’ve heard it said that Ukrainian:russian::Spanish:Portuguese, but I have little Spanish and no Portuguese, so I can’t say. My own feeling is it might be more like Spanish:Italian.

  46. 46.

    Carlo Graziani

    @Chetan Murthy: A common cheap-laugh TV comedy trope in Italy is to have “Spanish” stage characters who basically speak Italian with “s” appended to most of the words, and occasional comedic cedillas inserted in strategic places. It’s quite funny for about 30 seconds, but extremely tedious when overdone.

    I can actually follow soccer (excuse me, “football”) commentary on Univision, and prefer it to the more inane ESPN commentary. It’s easier than following general Spanish dialog,  presumably because there’s a more restricted technical jargon at play.

  47. 47.

    Another Scott

    @Carlo Graziani: I was at a conference banquet in Greece at a table with a temporarily empty chair when someone came up to sneakily grab the chair to take it to another table.

    “Ocupado!!” someone yelled out.

    He dropped it and walked away.

    Close enough to a quasi-universal European explanation I guess.  :-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  49. 49.

    Spadizzly

    @Subsole:  My turn to apologize; I got called away all day.
    I’ve always found it humbling that what sound like, to my ear, a series of rapid-fire, seemingly random syllables, are intelligible to many millions of human beings, conveying complex thought and information.

    So, I was just curious how you experience those two languages, is all.

  50. 50.

    Spadizzly

    @Andrya:

    Bottom line- language is fascinating but complicated.

     

    Once, I was speaking with my counterpart at a Scottish lab to discuss some results (I’m a chemist by trade), and now that you mention it, I have to wonder if what the person on the other end was speaking was Highland Scots English.   It was challenging, and I’d miss a word here and there, but context was sufficient to supply meaning.  Separated by a common language.

  51. 51.

    Spadizzly

    @Another Scott: We saw Repentance at the 1987 Chicago Film Festival, where it won a couple of prizes.  Tengiz Abuladze, the director, was present at the screening in the Biograph Theater on Lincoln Avenue and was there for Q&A from the Anglophone audience.  Abuladze spoke only russian and Georgian, and since his interpreter never showed up, my wife and I filled in, impromptu, so we were there for a good 30 minutes or so  translating questions and answers.

    My wife and I were absolutely blown away that such a film could be made that pulled no punches in calling out stalinism and fascism.  The subject matter of the film was so controversial, that it was shelved for 2-3 years and released only as part of Glasnost.

Comments are closed.