Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The jury literally has a bell they can ring to force Trump to show up on command. Greatest thing ever!

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

If you are still in the gop, you are either an extremist yourself, or in bed with those who are.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

I’m sure you banged some questionable people yourself. We’re allowed to grow past that.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

At some point, the ability to learn is a factor of character, not IQ.

Innocent people don’t delay justice.

Speaker Mike Johnson is a vile traitor to the House and the Constitution.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Republicans got rid of McCarthy. Democrats chose not to save him.

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

The choice is between normal and crazy.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

My right to basic bodily autonomy is not on the table. that’s the new deal.

When you’re in more danger from the IDF than from Russian shelling, that’s really bad.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

Joe Biden can go out like FDR, not by dying in office, but by crushing the fascists.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

These days, even the boring Republicans are nuts.

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Saturday Night Foreign Affairs Open Thread: *Intersectional* Fauxtrage!

Saturday Night Foreign Affairs Open Thread: *Intersectional* Fauxtrage!

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So the 36-year-old female Prime Minister of Finland had a private booze-up with friends on her own time/dime, and this has been ginned into a scandal!!!, for reasons. Some of those reasons, pretty obvious! Per CNN:

Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin has acknowledged partying “in a boisterous way” after the release of private videos – but said she is angry that the footage, which prompted criticism from political opponents, was leaked to the media.

Videos showed Marin, Finland’s 36-year-old leader, dancing with friends in a private setting.

“These videos are private and filmed in a private space. I resent that these became known to the public,” Marin told reporters in Kuopio, Finland.

“I spent a night with my friends. We just partied, also in a boisterous way. I danced and sang,” she said…

Best English-language Finn-based explanation I’ve seen:

2. A known neo-nazi and the Finnish equivalent of 4chan anonymous message board began to speculate that the participants in the video were on drugs. Their evidence: they thought someone on the video talked about “flour gang”, which these trolls interpreted to mean drugs.

3. It is worth noting that police officers, crime reporters with 20+ years of experience, and researchers who have actually studied Finnish drug culture all say that the word for “flour” (jauho) isn’t used to refer to drugs. Also, the audio quality is very poor.

4. The trolls from the anonymous message board – a hotbed of misogynism and far right trolling – began to drum up the “controversy.” A known pro-Putin conspiracy theorist picked up the neo-nazi tweets and amplified them.

5. Large segments of Finnish media jumped on the bandwagon. So far, their key pieces of evidence are
a) a journalist insinuating that lack of bottles in the short video means that the participants must be on drugs
b) an anonymous “acoustics expert”

6. Note that this conveniently anonymous expert says that someone in the audio is talking about “flour”, which the police, crime journalists and actual researchers say isn’t used to refer to drugs in Finnish drug culture.

7. Extra irony points accrue from the fact that many people who now criticize Marin steadfastly defended a conservative member of parliament who just some weeks ago was accused by nine separate individuals to have been grooming underage girls and plying them with alcohol.

8. In short, this is probably the dumbest scandal I’ve seen, and I’ve seen some pretty fucking dumb ones.

Part of the local response, I suspect, is the Scandinavian stereotype that certain things are best kept behind closed doors…


… which may be why the first media reports seem to have claimed the video was taken ‘at a public bar’. What’s the Finnish version of ‘a shonda fur die goyim’?

Not all Finns agree!

Of course, some Very Online individuals have responded with the class and understanding that every young-ish woman in a position of power attracts:

Speaking of Michael ‘Butter Goblin’ Tracey, there’s a certain suspicion that this leak just *might* be related to larger geopolitical concerns:

If NATO lured Russia into this conflict, then it was a masterstroke and achieved all of their objectives. If they did it, it was a masterstroke, and Putin a murderous fool. This is, somehow, better for Russia

See, if you have a geopolitical adversary, and he wants to fight you in a place and manner of his choosing, you should be asking yourself why you are fighting them in a place and manner of their choosing. This isn’t, like, Clausewitz

If you don’t start from the premise that it is bad, in the “Ukraine has been a CIA op since Maidan” world, Russia’s role is mostly to get beat up and embarrassed by American Arms and covert ops while also playing dirty, like why do I care again?

I’m sorry your military sucks and also your intel sucks and you also suck on moral and genocide-y grounds? Again, why do I care, what great injustice has been done

None of these things happened, though, so I don’t even worry about it, but its like striking how if I accept the premise how bad and bumbling and honestly deserving Russia is of the ass kicking it is getting.

Reader Interactions

88Comments

  2. 2.

    RaflW

    This feels about 1 degree from slut shaming.

    The Finnish ‘drinking alone in your knickers’ thing may also play some small part. Shocking that an extravert who blows off steam by ZOMG dancing with friends is the type of person who, in her 30s, has the stones to run to be – and get elected to – be PM of a country! How dare she not wear a black suit and be quiet in her garden on the weekends.

  3. 3.

    Urza

    Most disturbing thing I see in this thread is that Politico has a foothold in Europe instead of being laughed at till it goes out of business.

  4. 4.

    Chetan Murthy

    @RaflW:

    This feels about 1 degree from slut shaming.

    Nah, it’s spot-on … that thing.  Jesus fuck, how many times do male pols get away with diddling the help, when they’re not literally  raping, and yet this, this, *this* is what gets the media all het up?  FFS.  Surely they could go interview some of BoJo’s illegitimate children instead?  No?  How about articles on all the women who claim Trump raped them?  No?  Arrgh.

  7. 7.

    Omnes Omnibus

    She does her job, right? Nothing else is anyone’s business. Besides, what I saw looked pretty tame for Finnish drinking culture.

  10. 10.

    bbleh

    I do sorta wonder whether there  is ANY consideration AT ALL in the deepest inner sancta of our hallowed Fourth Estate that their amplification of transparently false “scandals” solely for the purpose of attracting eyeballs/clicks and revenue has a lot to do with the steady loss of the public’s trust in them.

    Granted that they may simply be returning to their roots  — Fox-like overt partisan-ism was the norm for newspapers for most of their history, and ostensibly neutral Cronkite-ism was more of an aberration — but most of them still think of themselves in the latter terms, even as they behave more and more according to the former.

    OTOH, maybe WWE is the future …

  11. 11.

    japa21

    Of course, this could have been an all night binge drinking party.  Let’s see, summer in Finland.  Would have lasted 3 minutes.

  12. 12.

    Gin & Tonic

    I’m trying to figure out how Michael Tracey can be so wrong so often. That takes Herculean effort, and he’s no Steve Reeves.

  13. 13.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @RaflW: Yep. How DARE she show her shoulders and have fun????

    I wonder how many people in this country who have tsk-tsked her for this were the same ones who had no problem with the Access Hollywood tapes.

    But in any case, fuck everyone criticizing her, she looks heckin’ cute and like she’s having a blast in that video. Let her live, for God’s sake.

  15. 15.

    bbleh

    @Chetan Murthy: @rikyrah: No way! I mean, just because, eg, Matt Gaetz still receives regular attentive coverage for his performative antics while the investigation of his alleged trafficking of minors for sex seems somehow to have dropped from view, really has nothing to do with misogyny and much more to do with … uh … how he always dresses appropriately for a national political figure and would never be seen in such an informal outfit.  Yeah, that’s it!

    (And also the guys complaining about her have totally great social lives and lots of girlfriends!)

  16. 16.

    Lyrebird

    @rikyrah: No wonder Tracey is helping spread this around!

    @Gin & Tonic: I’m trying to figure out how Michael Tracey can be so wrong so often.

    Must be profitable for him.  I cannot for the life of me understand who would still pay him or voluntarily read his BS after that totally bizarre treatment of Rep. Maxine Waters.  He’s younger than I am I bet, he should understand there’s a goldanged video…

    I can’t understand how he can even hold up his head in public, actually, and not just go apologize and try to do right.

    Yuck.

     

    ETA: maybe the troll farm funders are paying him.

  17. 17.

    dm

    Oh look, something sort-of stuck when they threw it against the wall.

    Remember when AOC was caught dancing in college?

  18. 18.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Baud:
    First off, I’m normally a lurker so take that into account.
    Second, I note that you are usually in the top 3 to post on just about any thread.
    With all due respect, sir/ma’am, how did you acquire this superpower and how can I obtain it?

    ;>)

  20. 20.

    scav

    The trick apparently is to party hard in the official dwelling when telling everyone else in the nation to isolate during a pandemic you’re otherwise blowing off. Or maybe the magic word is Bunga Bunga?  It’s so hard to keep up.

  22. 22.

    sdhays

    It’s at least 95% misogyny, but it also feels like maybe 5% generational “kids these days, how DARE they have fun in an UNDIGNIFIED manner – and have the temerity to be Prime Minister!”

    Such a pathetic “scandal”.

  25. 25.

    Another Scott

    @raven: (From July 2019).

    That’s perfectly normal.  “Rich” men are supposed to get drunk and high and grope younger women at parties.  It’s the way of the world.

    ////////

    I kinda wish that Sanna Martn would do the Hillary Clinton thing and call a live press conference and say she’ll answer every question and make them watch a 4 hour video of the party and then spend 6 hours answering questions.

    “Any more questions?  I’m sure there must be more questions.  Come on!  Please??”

    Grr…,
    Scott.

  31. 31.

    Suzanne

    If you note the dark humor contrast between the Finland PM’s cool young party girl image, and her spearheading the country’s entry into an expansionist military alliance after 75 years of neutrality, expect to be told that your real issue is resentment that she won’t date you

    It’s not that she won’t date you. It’s that no one will date you.

  35. 35.

    sdhays

    @Baud: LOL, considering the topic of the post, I originally read that you were a “BJ Prime Minister” and thought, “Wow, so Baud 2024 wants Tony Jay to write more about American politics instead of British politics.”

  36. 36.

    Anne Laurie

    @SiubhanDuinne: I know who Michael Tracey is, but why “butter goblin”?

    Back in March, *somebody* (The Young Turks, IIRC) paid Tracey to go to Poland and snoop around looking for ‘proof‘ that the Russians were being oppressed by a conspiracy of all-powerful American warmongerers and their minions.  Which led to rude twitter comments like this:

    BREAKING: Polish troops report pale, overweight man furtively glancing through fences near local military base, possibly part of Russian psychological warfare program to exploit local folklore legend of the ‘Hwrocvas’ (Butter Goblin) pic.twitter.com/5PWOXYgzOF— Promo Code: Rudy (@canderaid) March 14, 2022

  38. 38.

    SpaceUnit

    @Nukular Biskits:

    Don’t fall for it.  Baud is just a brain in a vat of fluids, kept in a secret government lab.  It’s connected to a number of tubes that provide oxygen, nutrients, and sadly the internet.

    Do not engage.

  39. 39.

    BC in Illinois

    As a certified old guy (a registered Septuagenarian), this to me seems like a total non-issue.

    The only reason I can see that anyone would get upset about the Prime Minister dancing with her friends, is that they don’t get invited to parties like that.

  42. 42.

    Mnemosyne

    Speaking of Michael ‘Butter Goblin’ Tracey, there’s a certain suspicion that this leak just *might*be related to larger geopolitical concerns:

    I mean, the instant you hear that international neo-Nazis are involved, Putin is never far behind.

  43. 43.

    ronno2018

    sHE WAS SNIFFNG FLOUR COME ON GUYS.  DRUGGZ!  IT HAS TO BE!

    (well actually she was just having fun with frenz)

     

    CHILLL OUT!

  44. 44.

    David 🌈☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    Sanna Marin: “I feel that the American dream can be achieved best in the Nordic countries, where every child no matter their background or the background of their families can become anything.”

    ***

    “We have a very good education system,” she said. “We have a good healthcare and social-welfare system that allows anybody to become anything. This is probably one of the reasons why Finland gets ranked the happiest country in the world.”

    ***
    Marin, 34, became the world’s youngest prime minister in December when she was chosen to lead her party, the Social Democrats, which has the most seats in the Finnish coalition government.

    Marin, who has a working-class background, was the first person in her family to attend university and worked as a sales assistant during her studies.

    she’s being attacked because she’s female and because she’s a social democrat

  46. 46.

    RaflW

    @Baud: At this point in my life, and ecstatic party is me and the BF and four other good conversationalists having a pleasant meal and desert and hanging out past 10.

  47. 47.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Cameron:

    If you note the dark humor contrast between the Finland PM’s cool young party girl image, and her spearheading the country’s entry into an expansionist military alliance after 75 years of neutrality, expect to be told that your real issue is resentment that she won’t date you

    1. she’s a “cool young party girl”
    2. but she’s a warmonger, throwing away neutrality and peace, and HOW AWFUL IS THAT?
    3. Gosh, that’s so hypocritical!

    As opposed to

    1. she’s young and cool, sure, sure whatever
    2. and she’s standing up for freedom and democracy against a violent dictatorship bent on genocide of neighboring peoples, INCLUDING HER OWN PEOPLE.
    3. gosh, that doesn’t sound hypocritical — it sounds like young people value democracy and humanity as much as old people do

    Tracey is assuming implicitly that NATO BAD, BAD NATO, BAD BAD WARMONGER NATO.

  48. 48.

    Suzanne

    @BC in Illinois:

    The only reason I can see that anyone would get upset about the Prime Minister dancing with her friends, is that they don’t get invited to parties like that.

    Well, yeah.
    There’s also the weird dudes who don’t like to see women having a good time socially because they think it’s unbecoming, because women belong in the kitchen making sandwiches.

    You know, I like men — I married two, for fuck’s sake — but sometimes they are a real pain in the ass.

  49. 49.

    Cameron

    @Mnemosyne: But the conclusion he draws is a total non sequitur.  Why would anybody respond to his “dark humor” with a statement about his dating life or lack thereof?  Nobody gives a shit whether Michael Tracey’s  an incel or not.

  50. 50.

    LeftCoastYankee

    Conservative men have never seen joyous women in their personal sphere.

    They’re pretty sure she’s off to get several abortions after taking non-existent drugs and dancing.

  51. 51.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Cameron: Remember when some GrOPers got all creepy about AOC, and she responded with something like “GTFO dude, ain’t no way I’m dating you!”  He’s trying to defuse that kind of reaction.  That, and (again) slut-shaming (b/c such a discourse would never occur if the pol were a male).

  54. 54.

    Anne Laurie

    @Cameron: Nobody gives a shit whether Michael Tracey’s an incel or not.

    Michael Tracey most certainly does!!!

    But seriously… dudes like Tracey, *everything* is a dick-measuring contest.  You disagree with his ‘dark humor’ (stanning for Putin, but from ‘the Left’), and you’re challenging his manhood.  Starbucks barista misspells his name (not for the first time), they’re sniggering about his masculinity.  Random dog greets him by sniffing his crotch, well… you get the idea.

  56. 56.

    Brachiator

    Yeah, I posted about this, yesterday and wondered about the dark political arts behind this, given Finland’s recent approval for NATO membership.

    Elsewhere I got dragged into some conversations with idiots who just can’t stand a young politician partying the way that young people do and another breed of fool who are trying hard to push the absolutely unproven drugs angle.

    Some dopes tried to insist that foreign leaders should be sober and alert 24 hours a day, especially given all the foreign crises happening all over the world.

    Meanwhile Boris Johnson, for one example, is on his second vacation in 2 weeks, in Greece. Not too long ago I think he was at the private party given by the media entity The Spectator, where much drinking and dancing was taking place, but without video coverage.

    And yeah, there is sexism here, but many of the pearl clutches are really upset at young people being young. I think that these types would be equally upset if it was a video of youngish Canadian PM Trudeau getting his freak on.

    And didn’t the Republicans want to impeach Obama for doing the Electric Slide?

  57. 57.

    MinuteMan

    @Chetan Murthy: ​
      I Emden when they’re was a kerfuffle when a videos of AOC dancing appeared. If someone wants to get worked up about dancing they ought to go after the clowns on Dancing With the Stars— some of those would be pretty hard to take.

  58. 58.

    Another Scott

    @Anne Laurie: I think it’s more of a “read me and give me clicks because I’m like you and know how to counter the arguments of those who disagree” thing.

    Tracey isn’t commenting on Sheikh Hasina or Ana Brnabić because doing so wouldn’t get him any clicks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  60. 60.

    Cameron

    Here’s a young person who can hold down the most responsible job in her country and still knows how to have a good time.  As a miserable old fart who’s never accomplished much of anything, I have to admit I’m kind of jealous.  Good for her, and her critics can shove it.

  61. 61.

    Ken

    The only time I recall this working recently was the release of the Madison Cawthorne party videos.

  62. 62.

    Steeplejack

    @Anne Laurie:

    Scant evidence of a “booze-up.” One glass briefly in frame, and journalist(s) talking about a “lack of bottles” in the video.

    It’s interesting that some, but not all, of the people’s faces are pixelated in the video, and it should be obvious exactly who took the video. The leaker should be found rather easily.

  64. 64.

    Anne Laurie

    @Ken: The only time I recall this working recently was the release of the Madison Cawthorne party videos.

    The Cawthorne clips were released by his own party, less as a ‘let’s all be shocked, shocked!’ move than as a  ‘look, we found a figleaf to cover dumping this dude who’s proving more trouble than he’s worth.’

    Even the dumber Lamestream Media journalists realized this was a cynical ploy, as it happened.  Probably because the RNC helpfully used the time-honored journamalism framework of ‘telling them what they’re gonna be told; then telling them; then telling them what they’ve just been told’.

    Cult of the Savvy, for the win!

  65. 65.

    Another Scott

    ICYMI, Matthew Cooper at WaMo – Dump will be Indicted (from 8/19):

    After the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago last week, I called my colleague Jennifer Taub—author, law professor, and expert on financial crimes. She is the author of Big Dirty Money: The Shocking Injustice and Unseen Cost of White Collar Crime and Other People’s Houses: How Decades of Bailouts, Captive Regulators, and Toxic Bankers Made Home Mortgages a Thrilling Business. She is also a contributing writer at the Washington Monthly. We caught up on the investigation over the phone and in subsequent emails, ending on August 18.

    This conversation has been edited and shortened for clarity.

    MC: You’ve been critical of Attorney General Merrick Garland about Trump. Feel the same after yesterday’s Mar-a-Lago search?

    JT: Well, even before yesterday, I had put out a tweet saying my confidence had been restored. My friend Mary Trump said, “You know, it turns out that Garland is a ninja.” It reconfirmed my faith that Garland would do the right thing. I trusted Robert Mueller to dig into the facts and do an honest assessment of them. But at the end of the day, he was afraid to say that a crime was a crime. Unlike Robert Mueller, Garland is not afraid to say that, because he signed off on the warrant.

    MC: Let me ask you about fake electoral slates. They seem to be a relatively straightforward case of fraud.

    JT: Fraud is not the correct charge. It’s called conspiracy to defraud the United States, which isn’t the usual kind of fraud. It would be the argument that [Trump] conspired with [his lawyer] John Eastman and maybe others to interfere with the joint session of Congress counting the electoral votes. That’s one charge, and the second would be obstruction of a congressional proceeding. When Judge [David] Carter ordered Eastman’s materials to go to the January 6 Committee, he did so because he said that he believed it’s more likely than not that Trump and Eastman were engaged in crimes. So those are those two charges. And yes, I do think that is a fruitful path. But I also think the seditious conspiracy is one, and they shouldn’t back down from that.

    […]

    Much more at the link! [/Silverman-Corner]

    (via Brad DeLong’s Substack thing)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  67. 67.

    Dark Steep

    @Baud:

    Wait a minute—I’m on BJ Platinum and I don’t get that stuff. WaterGirl!

    . . . Oh, I see. I only gave at the $60 level, so I got the goddamn “Where’s the frog?” tote bag.

  70. 70.

    Yutsano

    I’m in the process of consulting a friend from Finland about this matter. I’ll give you his findings when he reports back.

  72. 72.

    divF

    @Suzanne:

    @Quiltingfool:

    Madame divF refers to this as “the defective Y-chromosome syndrome” (they’re all defective).

    However, some of us are trainable, at least to the point where our lapses are tolerably infrequent. She’s kept me around for 45 years, so I guess I’m one.

  73. 73.

    Bill

    I just finished reading an interesting new book by Finnish journalist Jessikka Aro — Putin’s Trolls: On the Frontline of Russia’s Information War Against the World. Puts in perspective the last 15+ years of Putin and his minions interfering in so many places, instances both famous as well as little known.

  74. 74.

    Another Scott

    @WaterGirl: While she knows the law and the issues, all of this is new.  She’s guessing about him serving time in a cell, just like the rest of us.

    I assume any federal trial for TFG will come after trials for those in his inner circle.  (I expect the NY State fraud, etc., trials to happen relatively soon.)
    With those convictions and sentences, any federal trial and conviction will be much less shocking.  It will take a while – maybe years with all the legal battles.  Who knows what would happen by that time.

    On the other hand, prosecutors recognize the danger to the Republic and likely want to keep him off the ballot, so there may be pressure to have an air-tight federal case quickly. Judges and prosecutors know that he and his deranged followers are a menace to the system and to themselves personally.

    We’ll see!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  77. 77.

    Pennsylvanian

    @Baud: Ha! I spit out some wine. Never change! You are a treasure.

    What is this prime and how do we get it? Asking for a friend…

  78. 78.

    Tony Jay

    @RaflW:

    This feels about 1 degree from slut shaming.

    It is slut-shaming. Deployed as a tool of domestic and geopolitical propaganda. The whole ‘scandal’ falls apart under the most cursory inspection, but that didn’t stop our professional and totally non-partisan news media gobshites running it with zero credulity.

    “Hot Lefty does normal hot thing, but should this put voters off her? Contrarians say Yes!”

    When I mentioned this last week I pointed out that the FTF Guardian ran this story in full-on stenographic scold mode. Which may confuse some people who’ve been led to believe that the FTF Guardian is a centre-left newspaper. Why would they go after a young, progressive, lefty Premier using right-wing framing?

    That’s not what the FTF Guardian is. It’s a hedge-fund owned tool designed to suck subscriptions from a centre-left readership while feeding them a steady diet of “Ooh, aren’t the Right awful, but the Left are even worse” misinformation.

    Their narrative is simple. If the Left (of any stripe) are in power, undermine and propagandise against them, usually by promoting Rightwing smears through a lens of either faux-Lefty disappointed maximalism or sensible-centrist frustrated moderation, whichever fits best. If the Left (of any stripe) are in Opposition, do exactly the same thing. The aim is to depress the Left and maintain the Right in power as much as possible.

    Keeps their owners rich and their readerships angry, but it’s not in any way real journalism.

  79. 79.

    Mo MacArbie

    I’m all for throwing all the books at Trump, but the faith that a particular conviction will bar him by law from running again seems misplaced. He’ll just do it anyway, and the GOP will go along with it with their usual what’cha-gonna-do-about-it stance. The talking heads will dig into the topic of can-he-or-can’t-he with relish, the Supreme Court will say it’s in the political sphere and out of their hands, and that law goes the way of the emoluments clause.

  80. 80.

    trnc

    @Ken: ​
     
    Boris Johnson seems like a closer analogy in terms of the relatively normal partying going on, but obviously Marin didn’t disregard any covid or other regulations outside of the 4chan reg against women having any power or countries trying to protect themselves from Russia.

  81. 81.

    Tony Jay

    @trnc:

    There was a resenting story about the toilets in the House of Commons being tested and trace cocaine being found in most of them. And the popularity of Charlie amongst the Tory Yoof is pretty much a given.

    So when they didn’t ask about drug use at the Downing St Covid parties. It’s because they were told not to. Everyone knew what a proper investigation would prove, so the question was simply banned from the narrative. 

  82. 82.

    sdhays

    @Mo MacArbie: I think you mean the Emoluments Suggestion since it clearly has no force of law. For some reason, the age requirement in the Constitution is considered iron-clad, but enriching yourself off of the United States Government as well as foreign governments just isn’t disqualifying.

    I agree with you 100%. If they can do that to original clauses of the US Constitution, the idea that eligibility defined in law will have any effect is just being silly and hopelessly naive.

  83. 83.

    WaterGirl

    @Another Scott: Yeah, maybe that was what put me off.  She went from definitive to – and perhaps a bit misleading early on with her talk of no toupees in prison – and then went all squishy.

    I think you’re right, because at that point, so was no longer speaking as an expert and she knew it.  Better, perhaps for her to have said something to indicate that that was as far as her experience and knowledge could take her so at that point she was speculating just like everyone else.

  85. 85.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Mnemosyne: Speaking of pro-Russia idiots did you see Taibbi yesterday claiming that the current Dem Party is the same as Bush Republicans.  I mean, maybe if you skip past taxes, abortion, racial justice, voting rights, LGBTQ rights, gun restrictions, climate, etc. they’re totally the same!!

    I’m sure it has something to do with being big meanies who won’t cowtow to Russia or something…

  86. 86.

    Tony Jay

    @WaterGirl:

    There’s a first time for everything. 8-)

    That’s one of the things the FTF Guardian permabanned me for. Heaven forfend anyone suggest that their profitable business model relies on Tory Governments and would fall apart if an actual progressive centre-left Labour Oarty took power.

  87. 87.

    Another Scott

    @WaterGirl: One of these days I’m going to take the time to read more about the Trial of Aaron Burr:

    The Treason Trial of Aaron Burr: An Account

    Never has an American trial produced such an impressive set of key players:

    * the defendant– Aaron Burr, founding father, Vice President, and slayer of Alexander Hamilton in their famous duel three years earlier;

    * the trial judge–John Marshall, Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court (and the most important justice in history);

    * the force behind the prosecution–Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and president of the United States;

    * defense attorneys–Edmund Randolph and Luther Martin, both delegates to the Constitutional Convention and among the most prominent men of the day;

    * prosecutors–Charles Lee, former Attorney General, and William Wirt, future presidential candidate.

    The high-stakes treason trial of Aaron Burr came at an unstable time, both in Europe and in America. The American and French revolutions worried traditional European powers, Great Britain and Spain, who were determined to keep the radical new doctrine from undermining the power of their royalty. Meanwhile, Napoleon’s empire-building produced sustained military conflict on the Continent.

    The United States seemed on the verge of a war with Spain, even as the Administration struggled to preserve neutrality. Americans west of the Alleghenies rejoiced in President Jefferson’s acquisition of the Louisiana Territory, but boundary disputes and Spanish prohibitions on Louisiana residents’ entry into Nueva Espana created resentment and threats of reprisal. The Viceroy of Mexico, allied generally with western Indians, sent troops to the Sabine River to protect the Spanish frontier from invasion by United States citizens. Most Westerners saw Spain as tyrannical and viewed Texas and Florida as a rightful part of the United States. Many of these same Westerners expressed a willingness to take Spanish territory by force. Meanwhile, Spain also worried about the designs of residents of its own dominion (especially Mexico), recognizing that the unprivileged masses had grown resentful of Spanish authority.

    […]

    I’m sure the folks on the January 6 Committee and in the DoJ have studied it carefully. My limited understanding is that the most important lesson is probably – charge carefully and don’t over-reach.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

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