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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Every Picture Tells a Story

Every Picture Tells a Story

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photo of classified document folders on the floor of Trump's office
This image contained in a court filing by the Department of Justice on Aug. 30, 2022, and redacted by in part by the FBI, shows a photo of documents seized during the Aug. 8 search by the FBI of former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida. The Justice Department says it has uncovered efforts to obstruct its investigation into the discovery of classified records at former President Donald Trump’s Florida estate. (Department of Justice via AP)

In the comments of an earlier post, I shared a tweet from Trump-blighted hack Jonathan Turley, who spent days officiously demanding that the DOJ release more details on what they took when FBI agents busted into Trump’s Florida dump, only to complain when they did release more info that the picture above was included gratuitously to make Trump look bad:

It does make Trump look bad, and that’s because he is bad. There’s no plausible excuse for taking the documents in the first place, refusing to turn them over when requested, returning some documents and concealing others and lying about that.

But aside from that, I’m so glad the photo was included because, contra Turley, some people really do need you to draw a picture for them, and the court isn’t the only audience here. For example, without the photo, I don’t believe this conversation would have happened today:

More broadly, the picture is a signal that DOJ lawyers understand exactly who they’re dealing with and how he has squirmed out of so many past jams. Trump is a squid who emits ink clouds of lies and chaos to escape danger. A picture cuts through all that bullshit.

Moreover, inclusion of the picture tells us the DOJ anticipated the squid cloud of bullshit and preemptively cut through it. Maybe that’s why the legs of Turley’s fainting couch are groaning under his unconscious weight — he echoed the demand of Trump’s sleazy defenders, and when he got what he asked for, it blew up in his face.

At every turn in this saga, Trump did what you’d expect him to do — lie, bluster, rabble rouse, dispatch shoddy weasels to obfuscate on TV — and the DOJ cut him off at the knees every time. It’s not rocket surgery to predict what he’ll do, and not even a mouth as big as Tangerine Baal’s can ingest dozens of boxes of paper, so there was going to be evidence.

But still, it’s a thing of beauty to see someone anticipate which direction he’ll flail next and set a trap so that every demand satisfied ensnares him further. Bravo, DOJ.

Open thread.

Reader Interactions

257Comments

  2. 2.

    PaulB

    They’re really struggling to deal with the picture. It throws all of their earlier excuses out. Turley’s lame tweet is a perfect example of how desperate they are to find something, anything, to whine about.

  3. 3.

    moops

    Also time to get a warrant for every photocopier and scanner and digital camera at Mar-A-Lago, including Trump’s.  There is no way some of these documents were not imaged.  That would go a tremendous way to showing intent for further espionage.

     

    Also, all visitor records need to be seized to determine who has been coming and going to this site of poorly secured top secret records.

  4. 4.

    Old School

    Today TFG complained that he didn’t keep the documents on the floor.  The FBI took the pictures so you could see multiples documents at once just to make him look messy.

  8. 8.

    JWR

    When investigations collide! From Politico:

    Just six days before the Justice Department subpoenaed to recover highly sensitive documents housed at Mar-a-Lago, one of Former President Donald Trump’s attorneys scoured the estate searching for records in response to a separate legal matter.

    The attorney, Alina Habba, told a New York State court that on May 5, she conducted a search of Trump’s private residence and office at Mar-a-Lago that was so “diligent” it included “all desks, drawers, nightstands, dressers, closets, etc.” She was looking for records in response to a subpoena issued by New York Attorney General Letitia James, who is investigating matters related to the Trump Organization.

    The same filing also includes an affidavit from Trump himself, indicating that he “authorized Alina Habba to search my private residence and personal office located at The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida for any and all documents responsive to the Subpoena.” Habba indicated she conducted similar searches at Trump’s residences and office at his Bedminster estate.

    Is this evidence that someone was aware of which files to hide and from whom? IANAL and have a hard time keeping up with all the twists and turns. Also, zero sleep, so please forgive me if this is duplicate information.

  9. 9.

    Old School

    So which is more likely:

    1. Trump has every magazine cover of him framed.
    2. Trump has multiple copies of the same framed Time magazine.
  11. 11.

    Bill Arnold

    I said as much in a twitter response to Turley, though framing the inclusion of a picture of a display as being done because hacks like him exist.  Which is also true; D.J. Trump is not the only tentacled-one who emits clouds of squid ink.
    (Not casting aspersions on cephalopods; some of my best friends were cephalopods in previous lives. :-)

    I believe that we are seeing the fruits of some tactical preparation (perhaps over months) on the part of the DOJ.

  12. 12.

    moops

    That picture would also seem to indicate that Alina Habba is now a suspect in a federal crime.  You would notice documents that say TOP SECRET while scouring offices looking for documents.

  13. 13.

    Spanky

    @SiubhanDuinne: Don’t go all soft on Doocy. He only mouths what his owners tell him to say. What we can infer tbough, is that it’s time to cut Trump loose. TFG is gonna find out real soon that his friends have all disappeared.

  19. 19.

    Edmund Dantes

    @JWR: well… that’s another problem for whoever is on the hook for being the custodian of those records. Cause I doubt the Lawyer for the NY case had the right clearances to see all those classified documents that she diligently searched through. Add another count to the indictment for Trump and the custodian.

  21. 21.

    ian

    I always get Jonathon Turley confused with Jefferey Toobin.  The image of Turley’s groaning couch was therefor way worse for me.

  24. 24.

    Edmund Dantes

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: she herself might not have any criminal culpability (depending on if she has any clearances herself that convey a duty to protect classified material versus just a normal civilian), but she is now clearly a witness.

  26. 26.

    grumbles

    I simply don’t understand Turley. Does someone have pictures of him in bed with a dead hooker? Because otherwise I don’t understand why dude is burning his reputation for so little.

  29. 29.

    KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))

    They’ve been asking for transparency. This picture provides transparency.  TFG needs pictures or he doesn’t understand, so they even included a Time Magazine cover in the picture so he would pay attention.

    Maybe it wasn’t really  transparency they wanted, after all.

    ETA: How Gym Jordan could look at that picture and only comment on the Time cover is… well, it helps you understand how he “missed” the wrestlers being molested under his nose all those years ago.

  30. 30.

    artem1s

    Moreover, inclusion of the picture tells us the DOJ anticipated the squid cloud of bullshit and preemptively cut through it.

    It tells me AG Garland is sending the message that THIS is how you run an effective DOJ and FBI. And it’s how all their investigations will/should be handled. No Billy Barr or Jim Comey around to funk around and cover your ass anymore.

  34. 34.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Spanky: Nah, I think a long time ago he actually had something useful between his ears. I suspect, though, that the very first time he cashed a check from TVRWC mill, he thought “Aha! My path to riches!”

    And so here we are.

  37. 37.

    Princess Leia

    Just wondering if the top secret documents were hidden behind the pictures. The ones framed in yellow are a one-to-one ratio with the framed pictures. Or has that already been answered? So much to keep up with.

  38. 38.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Spanky:

    I wouldn’t say I’m going soft on Doocy at all. But when people who have mouthed vileness and stupidities every day for years start asking good questions and saying reasonable things — even if just occasionally, and even at the behest of his employer — I think it’s important to notice. Positive reinforcement, if you will (not that Doocy reads Balloon Juice).

  39. 39.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    I love how they keep being burned, moving the goalposts and asking for something they just know DOJ will never release because DOJ never releases that stuff. So they can fill the supposed vacuum with a made-up version, as Bill Barr did with the Mueller report he didn’t release.

    And then DOJ releases it and the new goalposts smack them on the head.

    Over and over and over.

  41. 41.

    moops

    If the documents had been hidden behind hung pictures I think the DOJ release would have mentioned this fact.

  42. 42.

    trollhattan

    @grumbles: Liberals peed in his cornflakes. He does not like them not one bit, and will march in front of congress to share his views.

  43. 43.

    stacib

    @dmsilev: None of this would be public without **trump.  He’s the one who rushed out and told everybody that the DOJ had “raided” his house.  MG’s group didn’t say jackshit to the public until **trump couldn’t quit trumping.

  44. 44.

    KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))

    @ian: I always get Jonathon Turley confused with Jefferey Toobin.

    Me too. In fact, has anyone ever seen them together?

  46. 46.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Princess Leia:

    The official description of the photo is that those documents were recovered, mixed with personal effects, in box 2A from Trump’s office.  The strong implication is that that box is 2A and the Time photos are the personal effects.

    My purely personal interpretation of all that is that this is Trump’s box of things to get out and look at (or show others, or both) how cool he is.  The classification types heavily imply there’s stuff like secret satellite or spy plane photos that would suit his functional illiteracy.

  50. 50.

    geg6

    @Tony G:

    I have to say, I am now very happy I couldn’t afford any of the elite universities to which I was accepted.  And that I decided against law school after graduating from my very good public R1 university.

  51. 51.

    Eunicecycle

    I also saw DOJ will give Trump the detailed inventory they’ve been whining about. Which they would have to do anyway once charges are filed so why not now? Maybe another hint DOJ WILL file charges?

  52. 52.

    Kropacetic

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Trump attorney Alina Habba is upset that the DOJ and FBI are looking into “mundane” crimes like “espionage

    Huh.  Maybe time to look into someone’s background.

    Espionage is so mundane, everyone is doing it…

  53. 53.

    West of the Cascades

    Also, the judge who is reading this brief is, like, 23 years old and has been a Federalist Society member since she was in diapers, so she probably needs a photo to understand what is going on.

    (OK, she’s 41 and a former associate at Gibson, Dunn and an AUSA, but given she’s a Trump appointee it wasn’t inconceivable that she was only 23 – and the point about her needing a photo to understand anything stands).

  54. 54.

    Wolvesvalley

    How do you like this tidbit from David Van Drehle’s op-ed in today’s Washington Post?

    [Stephanie] Grisham noted that Trump simply has a thing for paper — heaps of it, the more jumbled, the better. He even hauled boxes of assorted materials with him when he traveled on Air Force One. “There was no rhyme or reason — it was classified documents on top of newspapers on top of papers people printed out of things they wanted him to read. The boxes were never organized,” Grisham told The Post. “He’d want to get work done on long trips so he’d just rummage through the boxes. That was our filing system.”

    Trump took classified documents OUT OF THE COUNTRY? Supposedly as props (as if this is some kind of excuse — oh, it’s just a quirk of his)?

  55. 55.

    New Deal democrat

    Despite the general kudos for the DoJ’s brief, people need to be prepared: there are few things in existence as immovable as a judge with life tenure and a mind that is already made up. And this judge’s mind was clearly made up last week.

  58. 58.

    catclub

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: as Bill Barr did with the Mueller report he didn’t release.

     

    has the Mueller report been released?  Has it even been released to the suitable committees of the House and Senate?

  60. 60.

    Ken

    @moops: Also time to get a warrant for every photocopier and scanner and digital camera at Mar-A-Lago, including Trump’s.

    Does anyone know how much information copiers and scanners store?  I know many of them refuse to scan certain documents; it seems plausible they’d record some information about the attempt.

  63. 63.

    TriassicSands

    At every turn in this saga, Trump did what you’d expect him to do — lie, bluster, rabble rouse, dispatch shoddy weasels to obfuscate on TV…

    You left out “incite,” which has become such an important tool in the Republican toolbox. As with Head Weasel, Lindsey Graham, threatening violence is now a key element of Trumpian rhetoric. I suppose “rabble rouse” comes close.

  64. 64.

    moops

    Does anyone know how much information copiers and scanners store? I know many of them refuse to scan certain documents; it seems plausible they’d record some information about the attempt.

     

     

    I’m pretty sure that copiers are required to store months worth of their copying and also to embed a watermark into every document they create.    This was started to prevent counterfeiting,  something the Secret Service lobbied for.

     

    as for cell phones and digital cameras, it is harder than you think to correctly wipe those devices.  flash memory does not delete cells but merely marks them as available for future over writes.  A forensic driver can recover much information there.  Also, so many of these things have cloud-based backups enabled.

  69. 69.

    rikyrah

    @Weapon X:

     

    Doocy must have a relative that works at the FBI. Otherwise, no way he would say something like this live on air.

    Nope. the Fox lawyers had a word with staff.

    The beginning of cutting and running from Dolt45 for Fox.

  71. 71.

    C Stars

    Is it me, or does Noem have a new face? I seem to remember her looking completely different.

  72. 72.

    moops

    Also, this lawyer seems to think obstruction of justice is a mundane crime.

     

    When it is, in fact, one of this nation’s WORST crimes.

  74. 74.

    Ken

    Heh. From Adam Klasfeld’s analysis of the DOJ’s filing:

    “According to [Trump]’s filing, the former President had determined that the search for the materials should be conducted,” the footnote reads.

    Epner found the concession by Trump’s lawyers unorthodox. “Ordinarily, an attorney would not want to reveal who was making which decisions, because it potentially could expose that decisionmaker to jeopardy.”

    And that, boys and girls, is why you always pay your lawyers…

  75. 75.

    Barbara

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: So, basically, Ms. Habba is saying that in Trump World espionage and obstruction are just another day at the office.

    The other thing she does in that snippet is talk as if Trump is still the president, and as if he still has the right to declassify documents.

  79. 79.

    C Stars

    Oh, the photographs were gratuitous? Making public the photographic evidence was maybe perchance one might wonder, unnecessary?

     

    Cry me a river. Jesus these people are such snowflakes. TFG BRIBED A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT for dirt on his opponent. None of these assholes were clutching pearls then.

  80. 80.

    azlib

    I beleive the photo was for public consumption as it demonstrates the way classified documents are presented. Trump can hardly claim he was ignorant of having the documents because it is obvious they are classfied.  BTW, if they were declassified, I believe that fact would show up on the document cover.

    At this point the biggest problem I see with all of this is the document chain of custody has been broken. Who saw or read these documents and what secrets were revealed or sources compromised. I am sure the Nat Sec Teams are not having a fun time sorting this all out. At the worst human agents have been compromised and the best our information gathering network has been diminished.

  81. 81.

    John Revolta

    Here’s a weird thing…………that TIME cover is from March 2019 and shows all the Dem presidential hopefuls peering through the window over Trump’s shoulder, and right front and center, over Trump’s head is Joe Biden (with Kamala standing next to him!).

    For him to show up in this picture reminds me of the camera panning in on “Rosebud”. Who’s writing this stuff?

  82. 82.

    karen marie

    Someone on twitter posted a link to Individual-1’s “Truth” account which one can view without being registered.

    I’ve only glanced at it a couple times, just to see the frequency.  He’s “truthing” about every ten minutes.  I hope he’s taking his blood pressure medication, because I want him to live long enough to be criminally charged

    PS:  It’s on my tablet, I’m on my laptop, or I’d provide the link.

  85. 85.

    Brachiator

    The government does allege that classified documents were mixed in with non-classified documents. However, the court clearly did not need the visual aid of a picture of documents with covers to establish that there were such documents. It seems intended for public consumption.

    To which, the response is, why does FORMER president Trump still have any of these documents?

    Bonus question. How many of these documents did show to friends, cronies and potential buyers?

  86. 86.

    sukabi

    @JWR: sounds like Habba is going to need multiple lawyers herself….lying about documents in 2 separate cases….DOJ needs to search Bedminster now…

  88. 88.

    Gravenstone

    @moops:  The pictures would no longer have been nicely framed, either. They’d have shown each assemblage as its own little pile, I suspect.

  89. 89.

    Gravenstone

    @Frankensteinbeck: The number (2) aligns with the “leather bound box” descriptor on the list of evidence seized. So everything in there was his “precious” in some form or another.

  91. 91.

    Brachiator

    Free Fun question of the day.

    Who is the bigger lying weasel, Boris Johnson or Donald Trump?

     

    Answer. Liz Truss.

  92. 92.

    Scout211

    Rolling Stone  has another good article up today. This one has a potpourri of MAGA talking points attempting to discount the obvious visual evidence of F-POTUS’s crimes.

    Shorter MAGAverse:  Since everyone knows we make sh*t up all the time, we are here to try to convince you that the so-called FBI is just making sh*t up. Don’t believe your lying eyes, people. Oh, and the real victim is always Trump.

  94. 94.

    karen marie

    @karen marie:  Oh, actually, it is on my desktop.  I can’t keep my devices straight!

    He must be talking with foreign spies at the omelet bar because he hasn’t “truthed” in two hours.

  99. 99.

    Gravenstone

    @John Revolta: Imagine the only important thing in that cover was the fact Trump was inside the Oval Office. Just reinforcing his constant need for adulation.

  100. 100.

    New Deal democrat

    @azlib:
    “ I beleive the photo was for public consumption”

    I think that was only the tertiary purpose. The secondary purpose was for the jury pool.

    But, as to the primary purpose, I think the DoJ would have preferred *not* to publish the photo of classified documents which has gotten so much publicity today. Even the limited information disclosed – most importantly, the dates of the documents, in conjunction with the type of information they cover – gives US adversaries a glimpse of how close in time to certain events the US had important information about them, and the means by which it gained that intelligence.

    I think the inclusion of this document is a figurative slap across the face of Judge Cannon, who as I wrote above has given every indication that she made up her mind last week. The photo is warning her graphically about how serious, egregious, and blatant Trump’s violations were; and asking her if she really wants to justify coddling the person who engaged in those violations (which is what her proposed order does).

  101. 101.

    Leto

    Watched the Doochy video and stopped it after Noem said, “That’s why we need someone outside of the DoJ’ to provide the “transparency”. Like… you can see the lone marble rolling around in there. Such a dumbshit.

  102. 102.

    the pale scot @ gmail

    @Spanky:

    They found these three mundane statutes: espionage and the two others.”

    Que Spanish Inquisition  sketch

  103. 103.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    As I recall, TFG’s team has until 5pm today to respond, and then the judge is supposed to rule by noon tomorrow. Does that sound right? I assume TFG’s response will be public too.

  104. 104.

    Brachiator

    @Tony G:

    George Washington University Law School. “Elite” law schools (and “elite” universities in general) are a big part of reason why this country has become a corrupt banana republic

    There is nothing wrong with elite universities. They churn out both liberals and conservatives.

  105. 105.

    The Moar You Know

    I simply don’t understand Turley. Does someone have pictures of him in bed with a dead hooker? Because otherwise I don’t understand why dude is burning his reputation for so little.

    @grumbles: Turley was another one of those guys who seemed fine until Obama was elected…and then he went insane.  Just lost his shit and never got it back.

  107. 107.

    C Stars

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Yes! And has had a lot of work done, seemingly.

    I think Noem’s personal intellect has already been addressed here, but what she says to Doocey seems to be the new R talking point and I just wonder where they are going with it. So suppose the judge *does* appoint a Special Master, and, with all the evidence, the Special Master comes to the same conclusion the DOJ did? I mean, aren’t they just kicking the can down the road? What’s their endgame?

  109. 109.

    New Deal democrat

    @Omnes Omnibus: Why did the DoJ file a narrow, milquetoast response Monday, followed by the planet-killing laser cannon response yesterday? Both arguments could have been made simultaneously.

    I think the first filing was a test to see if she would back off gracefully. The second (apropos of your comment) warns her that her proposed ruling will likely be turned into thermonuclear glass on appeal (as does the Amicus brief as well).

  111. 111.

    Betty Cracker

    @New Deal democrat: Yeah, it does worry me that the case is assigned to a judge who is a Trump-appointed hack (redundant, I know). The DOJ seems to have dealt with that as deftly as it could when it suggested the “special master” horse was out of the barn since the FBI had already reviewed the docs, but I guess that doesn’t mean Judge Hack won’t appoint one anyway.

  114. 114.

    Jinchi

    The real value of this image is that it shows very clearly that Trump didn’t “accidentally” pack up a bunch of classified documents in his rush out the door.

    Anyone with eyes could see that TOP SECRET is stamped quite clearly in bold color. It’s done for that exact reason. To remind everyone with access that this document has to be treated with great caution, not released into the wild.

    My guess is that the witnesses who reported it, spotted the markings on the folders from across the room and reported it immediately to the FBI.

  115. 115.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Betty Cracker: Her expressed willingness to appoint a special master doesn’t speak well of her acumen.

    Question for the lawyers: Would other judges have spoken to her saying stuff like what are you doing? Or is that beyond the pale?

  116. 116.

    Steeplejack

    @JWR:

    “[Trump lawyer Alina] Habba indicated she conducted similar searches at Trump’s residences and office at his Bedminster estate.”

    I haven’t seen any reporting (or punditry) on whether the FBI believes Trump doesn’t have stolen ducuments stashed at Bedminster or Trump Tower, or if/​why they have apparently ruled that out.

  117. 117.

    Kristine

    @pajaro:

    I am not his shrink, but I assume he does his shtick on Fox at least in part because he enjoys the attention.

    I remember when he was a semi-regular on Keith Olbermann’s old MSNBC show. As I recall, he wasn’t like he is now. He was Chuck Rosenbergish. I wonder what happened

    ETA: I see @The Moar You Know answered my question.

  120. 120.

    Jinchi

    @C Stars: Trump is constantly fighting to win the moment, without thought for the consequences of getting what he wishes for.  My guess is that the special master will discover that there is literally nothing protected, like you suggest, and then will report that openly.

    That’ll only make Trump look worse than he alreafy does.

  121. 121.

    Keith P.

    @The Moar You Know: He’s in that group (along with Dershowitz and Greenwald) that claims to be a “principled liberal/constitutionalist”, and yet all of their writings for the last 5 years have suspiciously aligned with Trump’s interests.

  122. 122.

    JWR

    @C Stars:

    TFG BRIBED A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT for dirt on his opponent.

    This has always bothered me. Just the fact that such behavior was shrugged away still boggles the mind. But then I wake up, smell the roses, and remember who we’re dealing with.

  123. 123.

    Eunicecycle

    @Betty Cracker: You can’t rule out that she may be afraid of Twitler’s followers and may appoint one just to keep them at bay. Look at what happened to the magistrate; the temple he attends can’t have services again due to threats. His family has also been threatened.

  125. 125.

    eversor

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I’d say yes pretty much for sure there are satalite images at this point.

    I can actually read all the gibberish acronyms on these cover pages.   A bunch of these have TK which stands for TALENT KEYHOLE.   TALENT was cooked up to cover stuff spy planes picked up usually IMINT (image intelligence), KEYHOLE came about to cover space based IMINT.   The two compartments (hence the SCI designator) were later merged into one super compartment.

    This stuff is all printed on the covers so you know exactly what it is.  You can’t “not know” that something is classified or what it relates to.   Which is nobody who’s been around cleared stuff will buy the “he didn’t know it was classifed, if he didn’t he didn’t know what stuff it was” because you can’t not know and anybody who sees the cover page knows.   The colors denote the security level which is stamped on it in big as fuck bright red letters and all the compartments are listed on it as well.

  130. 130.

    Frank Wilhoit

    @karen marie: Turn up the heat.  Make him break, in real time.  (This is what cannot be forgiven John Kelly — he could have reduced Trump to a vegetative state with one blow of his tongue, but, somehow, did not recognize his obligation to do so.)

  132. 132.

    JaneE

    You can just imagine some FBI agent opening a box and finding a document, setting it aside, flips a sheet or two, finds another one, sets it aside, and by the time he is halfway through the box just throwing them down, here’s another one, and another one and holy crap another one.

    The ones with cover sheets and then the apparently loose pages?

    Of course it makes Trump look bad.  There is no way to avoid making Trump look bad.  And if it was deliberately staged to make Trump look bad, give that agent a gold star, he did a good job.

  134. 134.

    Betty Cracker

    @Eunicecycle: Good point. It’s not an unreasonable fear given the threats to the judge who authorized the search and since at least one MAGA dope acted on a threat related to it.

    I’m kind of gob-smacked at how quickly that failed (and now dead) MAGA avenger’s attack on the FBI got memory-holed in the press. The guy went to Trump’s failing Twitter knock-off to announce his intentions, explicitly said it was in response to the Disgraceland raid, died in a shoot-out with cops, and now…crickets. 

    We know what happens in countries where gangs terrorize law enforcement and the judiciary. It’s not good.

  135. 135.

    japa21

    A couple things I have seen addressed yet, although I may well have missed them.

    1. Generally speaking, AFAIK, a President may be shown a classified document for review, but afterwards it would be returned to its appropriate location. So, how did he gain custody of all these?
    2. Leading directly to who is it who actually gathered them for him? And is it several someones?
    3. Remember the DOJ has remarked that there are others also under investigation. Are they looking at the chain of custody?

    So much focus has been on Trump, yet there had to have been accomplices not just in the hiding of them, but also the gathering.

  136. 136.

    EmbraceYourInnerCrone

    @eversor: thank you! Twenty fucking years in the Navy. The things this idiot is getting away with makes my blood pressure hit the stratosphere.  I would have gone to prison for life if I had done some of the things he had done when handling classified information.  I want to know who he has shared it with

  137. 137.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    I was in charge of the War Registry in my prior life, that included Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret files, my arse was on the line should a single page of any one of those files went missing on a daily basis.  I have been watching this shit for the past couple of days and I cannot even fathom how anyone would allow this to happen.  If even a single page of one of my files was not accounted for I would have been charged, convicted and in jail.  This entire premise is nuts, I mean it really is.  Ask anyone who has mislaid a single page of classified info.   Who allowed this to happen?

  139. 139.

    Scout211

    Another high quality Trump legal advisor (John Eastman) pleads the fifth.

    Former Trump lawyer John Eastman pleaded his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination and invoked attorney-client privilege Wednesday when he appeared before a Fulton County grand jury investigating attempts to influence the 2020 election in Georgia, his attorneys said.
    “In his appearance before the Fulton County special grand jury, we advised our client John Eastman to assert attorney client privilege and the constitutional right to remain silent where appropriate,” the attorneys, Charles Burnham and Harvey Silverglate, said in a statement. “Out of respect for grand jury secrecy we will not disclose the substance of the questions or testimony. We wish to thank the grand jurors for their service.”

  142. 142.

    Steeplejack

    @JaneE:

    Related:

    I see the narrative is “that secret doc photo is STAGED.” Look: FBI agents are the least artistic and most literal motherfuckers ever to carry a gun. If they staged it, docs would be in neat stacks with a sticky note saying “UNLAWFULLY RETAINED DOCUMENTS” in a restrained font.

    — WhyIsHatSoMean? (@Popehat) August 31, 2022

  143. 143.

    Typhoon

    Just curious: Have Pelosi, Schumer, McConnell and McCarthy been briefed by DOJ on what’s really going on? Aside from McCarthy right after the FBI searched Mara Lago, I don’t think I’ve seen any of them really say anything.

  144. 144.

    Dan B

    @EmbraceYourInnerCrone: Trump left classified documents in his hotel rooms.  I don’t believe Secret Service agents guard the rooms non stop.  It might be useful to have security cam footage.  Who was in these rooms?

  146. 146.

    PPCLI

    @japa21: As I understand it, it was just a matter of people giving Trump things to review and him refusing to give them back.

  147. 147.

    Scout211

    @Typhoon: The gang of 8 has asked for a briefing.

    The request was made a week ago. I haven’t found a follow-up yet.

    The group of congressional leaders charged with reviewing the most sensitive intelligence information has asked the Biden administration for access to the documents seized from former President Donald Trump’s private residence in Florida, according to two people with direct knowledge of the request.

  148. 148.

    Gvg

    @Kropacetic: yeah, my reaction is “English may not be her first language”, what kind of background thinks accusations of espionage are mundane? And maybe we should check her background to see if she is really who she says she is….also who lets a spokesperson say something like that for them?

  151. 151.

    ian

    @Typhoon:

    McCarthy been briefed by DOJ

    I sure hope not.  What do you suspect he would do with that information?  The man would do anything to be Speaker of the House.  Would you give him sensitive information regarding TFG given what we have seen happen since 2021?  If I was in the DOJ, I would give him deliberately false information and see where it bubbles up.

  152. 152.

    Ken

    @Scout211: I’d love the response to be, “We cannot share that information with you at this time, since one or more of you are potential persons of interest in the ongoing investigations.”

  154. 154.

    mrmoshpotato

    Turley (fuck it, yes, auto incorrect, Turkey) can get fucked.

    The Kremlin’s orange fascist bitch stealing US classified information is what makes the bitch look bad!

  157. 157.

    Jay

    1. Summer is coming to an end and children are going back to school. We want to help keep the children in #Ukraine safe from the threat of unexploded ordnance. These cards each display a specific threat. Awareness saves lives. Could you spot the PMN-4 mine in the first photo? pic.twitter.com/bJq7ppV7Z6— Explosive hazard awareness cards for Ukraine (@UkraineCards) August 31, 2022

  158. 158.

    Steeplejack

    Re “mundane” crimes:

    I think maybe Alina Habba was reaching for arcane but missed. It made me laugh because in many fantasy novels there is a trope that mundane is the counterpart/​opposite of magical. Spent a few minutes pondering what magical crimes TFG might have committed.

  159. 159.

    Argiope

    @New Deal democrat:

    @Omnes:

    So there is a way for DOJ to appeal if this MAGA judge decides to appoint a Special Master? Would an appeal take less time than the delay involved in having a Special Master?  I keep having Marty Feldman and Gene Wilder flash through my head based on that phrase, because for some reason it makes me think of Young Frankenstein.

  161. 161.

    scav

    Semi-Fascists.  Meaning they needed entire semis to cart away all the mundane top-secret data to unlocked closets at Merde-à-Iago.  Add evidence from that photo-shoot of Orange Kool-ade in the cab and some more of his (theoretically) traffic-impeding  followers for complete transparency to the textually impaired & media.

  162. 162.

    eversor

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    My first job in the Navy was at a flag level command on a carrier.  Our operations room and our office had up to TS in it.  We had a conference room with video transmit for up to S.   Then we had CVIC (Carrier Intelligence Center) whic had SCI stuff with all this stuff in it and our own intelligence gather areas which generated this sort of stuff.  There’s more areas on a carrier and more stuff but that’s the way ships work and all of this stuff is public.

    I agree the entire idea that this could happen, or that someone would do it is mind breaking.  Even talking about things in the wrong area would cause all hell to come down on you.

  164. 164.

    mrmoshpotato

    Trump is a squid who emits ink clouds of lies and chaos to escape danger.

    Squid slander!

    Hush pendants!

  165. 165.

    geg6

    @Brachiator:

    Every single person I know who went to an Ivy (at least a dozen people I went to high school with) or a military academy are garbage people.  One of them worked in the Cheetolini WH.  It’s a small sample, but enough to convince me that such schools are not all they are cracked up to be.  I’m so glad finances allowed me to dodge the bullet of an “elite” university.  I can brag that I was accepted to several but I am glad I chose a public.

  168. 168.

    WaterGirl

    @Ken:

    “We cannot share that information with you at this time, since one or more of you are potential persons of interest in the ongoing investigations.”

    Be still my beating heart.

  169. 169.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @geg6: Oh ffs.  I know shitty people from fancy schools and  I know shitty people from regional public schools and everything in between.    I also know great people from all of them as well.

  170. 170.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @eversor: Remember Michael Walker? I think his job involved handling the burn bag, and as I recall he was selling the contents rather than burning them. And his Dad was giving away the crypto keys.

    That’s the most massive betrayal I can think of before this, and it doesn’t come close to what happened here.

  171. 171.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Argiope: One can always appeal.  As far as relative time goes, that’s anyone’s guess.  FWIW, I doubt she will appoint a special master.  Other’s MMV.

  172. 172.

    eversor

    @bbleh:

    I’m still confused they were allowed to take a picture of it, even a sanitized one.  Nothing about this is stuff I though could happen, let alone would happen.

  173. 173.

    lowtechcyclist

    @The Moar You Know:

    All modern copiers have hard drives in them, usually fairly large.  As in “able to store years of documents even if heavily used”.

    Is that just commercial copiers like you’d find in offices, or even my dinky home copier as well?  Seems like a useful feature to know about.

  174. 174.

    Roger Moore

    @dmsilev:

    Hell, this brief wouldn’t have existed or have been made public if it weren’t for the Trump legal clown show demanding a “special master”.

    This is something to keep in mind anytime the Republicans start whining about the publicity surrounding the investigation: it’s all Trump’s fault.  DOJ would have been just as happy keeping quiet.  They didn’t announce the search; Trump did.  They didn’t publish the warrant and list of seized materials until Trump demanded it.  They didn’t want to release even a redacted affidavit.  And so on.  Every single bit of publicity surrounding the even has been because Trump raised a stink and DOJ was forced to respond.

  176. 176.

    geg6

    @Betty Cracker:

    Completely OT, and you don’t have to change anything you write, but I hate that you call MAL Disgraceland.  This is because it is the name of one of my favorite podcasts about scandals and criminal acts by, against or around rock and pop stars.  I’ve listened to it for years, starting in 2016. It’s a play on Elvis’ joint.

  177. 177.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Scout211: I hope Biden says “Yes, you can see some of them. In a SCIF, which is where the documents belong. To be clear, if any of these end up back at Mar A Lago there will be problems.”

  179. 179.

    scav

    @Roger Moore: Yup.  Complaining about the optics after building and placing the rakes in their very own minefield, adding a few pie-traps for good measure and then arguing for greater depth of field in the camera shots.

  180. 180.

    Hob

    @Steeplejack: Espionage normally is a mundane crime in that it takes place on planet Earth and doesn’t involve any supernatural creatures. There are many counterexamples in fiction; my favorite is Declare by Tim Powers.

  181. 181.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​
     

    One can always appeal. As far as relative time goes, that’s anyone’s guess. FWIW, I doubt she will appoint a special master. Other’s MMV.

    IANAL and you are, so tell me: other than taking up a bit of time (and giving DOJ the opportunity to show everyone what Top Secret docs look like) how much does this dust-up over the Special Master really matter?

    For instance, if they plan to indict Cheetolini (and I’m starting to think it’s more likely than not), they don’t have to file it in her courtroom, do they? I’d think they’d have options there.

  182. 182.

    Ken

    @Roger Moore: Now I’m half-expecting they’ll start claiming entrapment. “The DOJ knows FPOTUS is a narcissistic idiot who can’t keep his mouth shut,” his friends supporters will say. “They should have realized that simply executing the warrant would entrap him into confessing to violations of six different 18 USC sections, and making public the evidence of those crimes.”

  183. 183.

    moops

    My guess is Jared has seen these files and used some of the information therein to blackmail the Prince.

     

    Rudy has also seen these files, and has so far failed to exploit this, and also managed to fail to report it to the appropriate authorities.

     

    …or Rudy is the leak, after not being paid for all those years being TFGs moronic bagman.

  184. 184.

    bbleh

    @eversor: Check out all the white cover pieces.  They were custom-cut for the documents they’re covering.  I can’t imagine this wasn’t gone over by three different agents with magnifying glasses and jumper cables attached to them just to keep them twitchy.

  185. 185.

    Steeplejack

    @Hob:

    I will check out Tim Powers’s book. I have been reading Ben Aaronovitch’s Rivers of London novels and think I am experiencing a bit of binge fatigue in the middle of No. 7.

  186. 186.

    Ken

    @Hob: I’m rather fond of Charles Stross’s “Laundry” novels. They sometimes get into the complexities of securing classified materials when both remote viewing and the law of contagion* are credible threats.

    * Say you staple some documents together. Say an enemy gets hold of the stapler with the rest of the staples. They now have a piece of metal that was formed at the same time, and spent months in close contact with, a piece of metal that’s attached to your classified document….

  189. 189.

    Steeplejack

    @lowtechcyclist:

    “[. . .] other than taking up a bit of time [. . .].”

    Can’t find the link now, but a lawyer on Twitter said yesterday that the special master review of the material on someone’s cell phone (Steve Bannon?) took nine months. That surprised me. So this hue and cry now might be an instance of the Trumpists’ usual tactic of delay, delay, delay.

  194. 194.

    eversor

    @bbleh:

    Doesn’t make me it any less “I can’t believe that was allowed” from having been around stuff before.  The concept of a camera in a room or remotely close to this sort of stuff just beggars belief.

    But this entire thing beggars belief.  Every single bit about it from, all fucking god damn angles.  As someone stated above “the entire premise of this is nuts”.  It’s really just mind breakingly batshit insane.

  195. 195.

    JWR

    @WaterGirl:

    @Ken: “We cannot share that information with you at this time, since one or more of you are potential persons of interest in the ongoing investigations.”

    Isn’t that pretty much what NancySmash said in rejecting Gym Jordan and Clones for the Jan 6 Committee? She said something like, Gym Jordan and Clones would “compromise” the investigation, most probably by way of leaks, because of course they would. They have the mentality of angry, nine year old brats.

  196. 196.

    Ken B

     

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Depends on the copier. Some do, some don’t.

    The commercial machines I worked on had four hard drives, one for each color.

    The machines we occasionally printed classified material on had two sets of removeable drives. One we used daily, and another set that was kept in a special safe when they weren’t in use.

  197. 197.

    ian

    @moops: You think Jared is blackmailing bonesaw?  If that is even remotely true, my admiration for J-Kush went way up (pretty damn low as it stands).  That takes some serious cajones.

    Selling him secrets, I would believe.  Blackmail, a guy like MBS?  That reminds me of the scene from the Dark Knight

    • Lucius Fox : [to Reese]  Let me get this straight, you think that your client, one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante, who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands, and your plan is to blackmail this person?

      [Reese’s face falls and Fox smiles] 

      Lucius Fox : Good luck.

  198. 198.

    eversor

    @JWR:

    Reminder that Matt Gaetz and crew stormed into a SCIF in the capital building with their phones on, live streamed it, and then ordered pizza.

  199. 199.

    Citizen Alan

    @C Stars:

    TFG BRIBED A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT for dirt on his opponent. None of these assholes were clutching pearls then.

    No. He bribed a foreign government to go on TV and PRETEND there was dirt on his opponent.

  200. 200.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @lowtechcyclist: ​
      First of all delay. Second, I think it is dangerous to give any fuel to Trump’s arguments about privilege or that the DOJ/FBI is acting improperly.

  201. 201.

    geg6

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    As I said, it’s a small sample.  Of course there are good people who came from Ivies or their equivalents.  Barack and Michelle, just to name two.  But my contact with their products IRL (and too many through my tv and other media, for that matter) are garbage people. Which makes them no better than any other major university.  And possibly worse.  I wouldn’t send a kid to one and I wouldn’t counsel a young person of my acquaintance to choose that path either.  There’s something very wrong at their core right now and their influence over so much that matters in this country is insidious.  All of higher ed is fucked up right now but they are the worst because of how entangled they are with all the power structures in this country.

    But feel free to disagree.  I’m fine with my conclusions about them and fine that yours are different.

  202. 202.

    Roger Moore

    @japa21: ​
     

    1. Generally speaking, AFAIK, a President may be shown a classified document for review, but afterwards it would be returned to its appropriate location. So, how did he gain custody of all these?

    I don’t think this is necessarily known, and even if it is it isn’t necessary for the FBI to reveal it in the warrant, affidavit, etc. My guess is that the President can ask for more time to review a document, and this is generally granted. So Trump would ask whomever presented him with the document to leave it so he could review it in more detail and then just never return it. Whoever issued the document should have kept track of it being given to the President and not returned, but that wouldn’t set off alarm bells until they weren’t returned at the end of his presidency. If I had to guess, it’s this kind of document tracking that led NARA to start pestering Trump for the return of documents.

  207. 207.

    moops

    @eversor:

    Reminder that Matt Gaetz and crew stormed into a SCIF in the capital building with their phones on, live streamed it, and then ordered pizza.

     

     

    and what a surprise that nobody suffered any consequences for national security violations.  Must be nice to be a GOP pol and utterly immune from prosecution for anything.

  211. 211.

    Ken

    @Ken: And on cue, TFG has twitted about how awful it is that the DOJ took the docs out of the carton and spread them on the carpet, thus confessing (as if it weren’t obvious) that he had the documents, had them in a carton, and had them in his office. All violations of Federal law.

    Seriously, the tropes coming out of this are going to replace “taking NOTES on a criminal conspiracy”.

  215. 215.

    JWR

    @moops:

    My guess is Jared has seen these files

    Most probably, and I’ll bet Don Jr and Eric have been up to their eyeballs in this stuff as well, looking for ways to make a quick espionage buck.

  216. 216.

    Roger Moore

    @geg6: ​
     

    It’s a small sample, but enough to convince me that such schools are not all they are cracked up to be.

    My impression is those schools are “elite” primarily in educating the children of the elite. To the extent they offer a better education than a good state school, it’s because they have more resources, so it’s possible to give the students more individual attention. Of course this is most helpful to those “elite” students who are there because of their parents’ money rather than their own intelligence. The really bright kids can succeed anywhere.
    There was a great study a few years ago- I’m sure it came to your attention- that showed the best predictor of a student’s success was the quality of the best school they applied to, not the quality of the school the wound up going to. If you’re smart enough to apply to one of the Ivies, you’re smart enough to get a good education at any decent school.

  218. 218.

    germy shoemangler

    An ousted Florida data scientist who said she was fired for refusing to manipulate COVID-19 numbers and emerged as a critic of Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis over his handling of the pandemic won her U.S. House primary race and will challenge Rep. Matt Gaetz, one of former President Donald Trump’s staunchest supporters, for a seat in Congress. Rebekah Jones won Tuesday’s Democratic primary in northwestern Florida’s first congressional district, setting up a chance to unseat the incumbent Gaetz, who has represented the district since 2017.

    I didn’t know about this. I just found out a few hours ago.

  220. 220.

    Citizen Alan

    @Citizen Alan: Actually, even that’s wrong. He attempted to BLACKMAIL a foreign government into doing that by threatening to withhold desperately needed military aid

    edit: Or what Mr Bemused said. :)

  221. 221.

    Citizen Alan

    @geg6: Can we compromise and agree that everyone who goes to an Ivy League as a legacy without the need for student loans because Daddy can pay for it all is probably a garbage person?

  222. 222.

    eversor

    @Roger Moore:

    They sell access.  I’ve worked at more than a few places where the legal/consulting positions only hire from the top X number of schools for new positions, period, alos there is a GPA requirement, but top schools tend to take care of that for you.  These places offer vastly higher salaries and bonuses than the competition, and the professional networks last for life.  A lot of these people waft in and out of government at times between raking in huge sums of money.

  223. 223.

    Another Scott

    @C Stars: The end game is to delay everything long enough so that a GQP Congress and Administration makes it all go away.  That’s the only chance they’ve got.

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  225. 225.

    Tony G

    @EmbraceYourInnerCrone: I came of age at the beginning of the all-volunteer military (and I chose not to volunteer), but this open treason makes me think of the older generation in my family, most of whom did serve in the military.  One my uncles did “signal intelligence” work in the Air Force in the early fifties.  Mostly mundane stuff, I think.  Whenever he was asked about it, he’d say, half-jokingly, that he could not talk about it (not even sixty or seventy years later) because “he had taken an oath of secrecy”.  He realized, of course, that any intelligence that had been gathered decades ago was no longer relevant — but he took his “oath” seriously.  And now we have this openly corrupt traitor making a mockery of national security.  If Trump doesn’t end up with his ass in prison, we are really screwed as a country.

  228. 228.

    RSA

    @Roger Moore: As your comment suggests, the evaluation of universities has a problem–is an elite university good because of the quality of its education or because it takes in excellent students and graduates those same excellent students? The study you mention shows pretty clearly how things work, I think.

    Unrelated, but I was once interested in university rankings and reputation, which it turns out change very slowly. Here’s the earliest ranking of U.S. universities I’m aware of, from 1910. I think all except Missouri are arguably top-20 over a century later.

    1. Harvard
    2. University of Chicago
    3. Columbia
    4. Yale
    5. Cornell
    6. Johns Hopkins
    7. Wisconsin
    10. MIT
    11. Michigan
    12. California
    13. Carnegie Institute
    14. Princeton
    15. Stanford
    17. Illinois
    18. Pennsylvania
    20. Missouri

  230. 230.

    Cameron

    I don’t know where I’d come down on the elite vs. non-elite argument.  I started out at an elite, got kicked out (twice – the triumph of hope over experience), and wound up getting a degree from Close-Cover-Before-Striking University at age 45.  And I’m damn glad I got the paper from dear old C-C-B-S, ’cause that was right about the time Conrail dumped us all out on the street and railroad clerical skills don’t sell well in the job market.

  233. 233.

    WaterGirl

    @Another Scott: I agree that this judge is jumping through hoops, and she is bending over backwards.  But she has done each hoop at the speed of light.

    I think if she were in the tank for Trump, each step would be drawn out.

    I think we’ll know soon enough.

  235. 235.

    TS

    @WaterGirl:

    I wouldn’t give half of the gang of 8 anything.

    I would concur with that. I keep thinking of 4 years of attacks related to those emails – yet boxes full of classified documents are just fine – because it’s their guy.

    The GOP pre TFG was big on security, anti-communism, the military and law enforcement & they’ve given that 100% away to support “their guy”. It is insane.

  237. 237.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Not only is TFG fucked, his cosplay lawyers are fucked.  Couldn’t happen to a more deserving gang of scum and villainy.

  238. 238.

    Roger Moore

    @TS: ​
     

    The GOP pre TFG was big on security, anti-communism, the military and law enforcement & they’ve given that 100% away to support “their guy”. It is insane.

    I don’t think that’s really true. The GOP pre TFG thought anti-communism, the military, and law enforcement were good attack lines to use against the Democrats, but they were willing to abandon those principles when they saw a way of getting ahead.

  240. 240.

    Mike in NC

    Many of us received security clearances for the military and/or defense contractors. It’s a time-consuming process that can take months to complete. Under no circumstances could a career criminal like Donald Trump, his worthless children, and Jared Kushner qualify for security clearances the way mere mortals have to. Kushner had to resubmit his paperwork something like 10-15 times and it still was unsatisfactory. The Fat Orange Clown had to order John Kelly to give it to him anyway, since Kushner was assigned to bring peace to the Middle East and do other cumbersome chores that Trump couldn’t be bothered with because they interfered with his golf game.

  242. 242.

    beckya57

    You will be receiving the squids’ lawyer’s letter soon re their defamation suit.  Squids are lovely animals that should never be compared to a loathsome creature like TFG.

  246. 246.

    RaflW

    Both the freakout/throw out every ‘defense’ against the photo, and the hissy fit about ‘semi-fascist’ are the same basic thing: Full admission of a pathetically weak GOP hand. And a desperate, but likely vain, hope that Dems will go back to the defensive crouch habits of decades.

    (And yes, DOJ is not Democrats. Democrats are folks s like Schiff fighting back hard with the facts & the photo.)

  253. 253.

    Mike in NC

    @FelonyGovt: I had a TS/SCI but never really needed it. Every time I saw a Confidential document, I thought it should have been unclassified, and Secret stuff was at most Confidential. Military is notorious for that.

  256. 256.

    J R in WV

    @JWR: ​
     

    TFG BRIBED A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT for dirt on his opponent.

    This has always bothered me. Just the fact that such behavior was shrugged away still boggles the mind.

    It wassn’t shrugged away except by Republicans — the Democratic House impeached him over that crime!!

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