Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

When they say they’re pro-life, they don’t mean yours.

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing.

Celebrate the fucking wins.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

“Joe Biden deserved better than he got from some folks in his own party.”

You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

T R E 4 5 O N

FFS people, this was a good thing. take the win.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

Never give a known liar the benefit of the doubt.

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / But then the clock turns – and it’s now, and it’s you

But then the clock turns – and it’s now, and it’s you

by | 125 Comments

This post is in: 

The inventory of seized documents from Trump’s stately pleasure dome includes 90 empty classified or return to military aide document folders:

In itemising the contents of boxes of seized materials, the inventory put together by the justice department showed the FBI retrieved 71 empty folders from Trump’s office and 19 empty folders from a storage room when agents executed a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago earlier this month.

I think the probability that the Trumpy judge who ordered the release of this inventory will appoint a special master or allow some other form of delay at 90% or more. There was a lot of pointing and laughing on Twitter about Trump’s dumb as shit attorneys filing their jibber jabber request for a special master two weeks after seizure, when competent counsel would have done it the day after the search. I wasn’t laughing, for two reasons. First, he’s going to delay everything and then ask for extensions. His whole life strategy is running the clock out. Second, even if the briefs filed by his attorneys were the legal equivalent of crayon scrawls on toilet paper, some batshit Federalist Society judge will turn their shit into gold.

That all said, it would appear that the DoJ has gotten their teeth into this, and every dilatory motion filed by Trump’s attorneys has yielded evidence that any reasonable person (currently about 55% of the population) would consider even worse than the last bits.

Reader Interactions

125Comments

  1. 1.

    Citizen Alan

    The Federalist Society is what you would get if Ayn Rand and Hitler had a baby that grew up to go to law school.

  6. 6.

    Will

    Trump has left me completely unmoored as far as being able to read a situation. I read empty folders and I’m like “Oh shit, he’s sold them” before the Trump Is Slippery Voice says, “This dumbass is going to escape again cause they were empty.” EDIT: Nevermind, thanks Scout, see they also list documents not just empty folders.

  8. 8.

    MattF

    I’m now rather skeptical that Trump will ever be perp-walked. Maybe that’s OK if it makes the fucking-over of the Republican Party more likely. Consider the very large number of people employed to enforce security rules at the many DOD-funded labs- both government and contractor. Mostly Republicans, imo, and likely very irked with Trump.

  9. 9.

    Tony G

    @Scout211: Needless to say, Trump is a traitor who would sell out his own children (even Ivanka) for a few bucks.  But, what’s puzzling to me is the question: Why didn’t he just make copies of these documents, sell the copies to Putin (or to the highest bidder) and then return the originals?  Is he just so stupid and reckless?  Or was there something else going on here?

  10. 10.

    Ken

    I would expect the DOJ to appeal a ruling that they can’t access the documents, but I would also be happy with a “No problem, we’ve already gone through everything, photographed and catalogued it, and put the sealed boxes in an evidence locker awaiting trial.”

  11. 11.

    waspuppet

    Second, even if the briefs filed by his attorneys were the legal equivalent of crayon scrawls on toilet paper, some batshit Federalist Society judge will turn their shit into gold.

    If it comes down to it, they don’t have to be “the legal equivalent.” Actual crayon scrawls on toilet paper will do.

  14. 14.

    Another Scott

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Emptywheel pointed out in a Tweet that the NARA (Archives) said that TFG’s minions returned a bunch of things that should have been in folders like those.  So maybe there’s a 1:1 correspondence and nothing’s “missing”.

    But, maybe there isn’t.

    I’m sure they’ll figure it out, but it will take time.

    Personally, I don’t think that TFG took the stuff with the plan to sell them.  He wanted them as trophies to pass around for his important “friends”.  He never cared about following procedures – he’s too important for mere rules.  Why would he keep track of filing things properly?  That’s for the clerical staff to worry about…

    He would probably just blurt out any secrets, the way he always did while he was in office.  Of course, even not selling them is double-plus bad and double-plus illegal and double-plus dangerous to national security.  And lack of security means that others might have done the spycraft like taking pictures of the documents or flattering him to get him to talk about all the bigly secrets…

    Grrr…,
    Scott.

  16. 16.

    jonas

    Did the empty folders perhaps contain stuff he returned to the NARA earlier this year? Remember that’s what triggered the search: he sent some stuff back, but then lied about having retained anything more, which he of course had.

  18. 18.

    Martin

    I think the big takeaway from this whole episode is how these established bright lines like ‘executive privilege’ are just complete bullshit. It has meant one specific thing for decades, but we now have judges enforcing a completely different definition of it – in fact, the opposite definition of it. It’s almost as though it has no goddamn meaning whatsoever, or that the judges are simply doing to do whatever the fuck they want.

  20. 20.

    Nora

    @Martin: Well, we see that with the Supreme Court.  Things that had meaning for decades or longer are no longer relevant, or have whatever meaning these particular judges want to ascribe to them.

    It’s Humpty Dumpty talking about words in Through the Looking Glass, only it’s not fiction.

  21. 21.

    jonas

    This has to be a hail-mary delaying tactic because the FBI wasn’t looking for papers relating to any of Trump’s businesses or legal affairs — they just wanted the classified government material back. So even if a SM finds a page of privileged material somewhere in the reams and reams of classified files Trump stole, so what? That’s not what’s at issue here. Beyond that, it’s hard to see what their longer-term strategy is. To gum things up for two years and hope for a Republican president who will just pardon him?

  22. 22.

    Another Scott

    @Martin: I assume that the judge isn’t completely in TFG’s pocket since there wasn’t a ruling from the bench when she had the opportunity.

    I don’t see anything about a ruling yet on nycsouthpaw and he’s usually pretty quick on breaking legal news.

    We’ll see.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  23. 23.

    feebog

    The DoJ still has a lot of groundwork before they indict anyone.  All three of the attorneys (Corcoran, Bobb, Habba) will need to be interviewed.  If they want to save their own skins, it may mean multiple interviews over several weeks/months.  Also to be interviewed; anyone seen on video entering the “secure” closet.  Garland isn’t going to do anything until after the mid-terms, in accord with DoJ policy, so we are looking at late November at best.

  25. 25.

    JoyceH

    @Another Scott: I just have trouble believing that a broke, deeply in debt guy who lives a billionaire lifestyle stole items with extreme monetary value with no intent to sell them.

  26. 26.

    Tony G

    @MattF: That sounds about right.  In other words: stupid and reckless, the pattern that he’s followed since he was a rich, pampered little boy.

  27. 27.

    citizen dave

    We’ve been watching The First Lady (Hulu) and last night (Ep 5?) opened with Ford now President, and close up on a newspaper story “57% Favor Nixon Prosecution”.  Ford family eating breakfast/lunch, aide comes in: Rumsfeld and Cheney would like to see you sir.  Next thing you know, Ford delivers the very short speech granting the full pardon from when Tricky Dick took office to when he left.

    By the way, this poll says we’re at 50%, for THIS crime: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-31/half-of-americans-in-poll-favor-trump-prosecution-over-documents

  28. 28.

    RaflW

    As this unfolds, I realize how vast the failures of our media (or, cynically, how vast the corruption of our media) has become.

    Just five short years ago, Hillary’s server was the most egregious national security breach ever. Now it seems entirely possible that Trump took documents out of Top Secret folders and squirreled them away for later petting or more seriously dangerous and deranged use, and the press is up in arms about Biden’s after dark speech featuring red lights and Marines.

    FML, we’re going down.

    (I’m not actually that worried. I think this same failed press is going to be ‘surprised’ that Dems win a couple of Senate seats, hold the House, and maybe even make some legislative gains around the country. I think unfortunately Kemp will be GA governor so I’m concerned about ’24, but we’ll cross that rubicon once we get through this election!)

  29. 29.

    gene108

    I think the probability that the Trumpy judge who ordered the release of this inventory will appoint a special master or allow some other form of delay at 90% or more.

    I think the chances the judge appoints a special master are a bit north of 99.99%.

    If Trump’s lawyers motion is as amateurish as layers say, and it’s still being considered, I think the judge is just trying find the right words to give the faintest veneer of legal cover.

    The courts are going to give Trump every chance to delay. They’ve been doing this for decades. Why should the courts change for some possible espionage activity by an FPOTUS?

  30. 30.

    moops

    Given the state of the document handling, and foreign adversary could have easily walked in and taken whatever sensitive content that wanted.  Then leave behind the folder to peg the blame on Trump.

     

    or the folder contents were left out of the classified folder and are mixed in with other papers.  Or they are in the tray of the copier.  Or the material was damaging to Trump and he flushed them.  Again, forgetting or not bothering to destroy the folder.  Or Trump was in the process of putting false documents in legitimate classified folders.

     

    We should really be in the realm of damage assessment at this point.

  31. 31.

    jonas

    @JoyceH: The Trump Org is actually pretty flush with cash right now. They got Deutsche Bank and a bunch of other lenders to refinance or write off a lot of their loans, and recently sold the DC Trump hotel for a tidy profit. No, I still believe that Trump stole the stuff because they’re his Preciouses and he still wants to be president like he was a few years ago when His Generals would stand around and look at the Important Papers with him and he would get to Authorize Things. He’s a goddamn toddler, nothing more.

  32. 32.

    RaflW

    @Eolirin: So. The GOP is openly planning to undo Biden’s $10K school debt relief. They’re using Scotus to likely tank Medicaid and SNAP.

    And they still don’t know what to do about the fallout from catching the Roe bumper.

    The next decade will be wild. I think the youth of America coming up today will make the radicals of the 1960s seem tame. Or at least I hope so!!

  33. 33.

    RaflW

    @moops: We should be, yes.

    And the cadre of very serious national security Republicans we all knew for the past several decades should be up in arms about this very obvious, massive breech.

    But partisanship exceeds national interest – on the right. (Did I say that? I am as bad as Biden, then. Shame on me.)

  35. 35.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @jonas:

    His Generals would stand around with tears in their eyes and look at the Important Papers with him and call him “Sir” and he would get to Authorize Things.

    There.

  37. 37.

    gene108

    @Martin:

    I think the big takeaway from this whole episode is how these established bright lines like ‘executive privilege’ are just complete bullshit. It has meant one specific thing for decades, but we now have judges enforcing a completely different definition of it – in fact, the opposite definition of it. It’s almost as though it has no goddamn meaning whatsoever, or that the judges are simply doing to do whatever the fuck they want.

    It makes perfect sense. We have to quit viewing the Republican Party as a run of the mill Conservative party.

    They have been a radical right wing revolutionary party for decades. When a revolutionary party seizes judicial power, the laws are not about guilt or innocence or the facts of the case, the laws are about how the case can advance the cause of the revolution.

  38. 38.

    New Deal democrat

    I read an excellent thread last night on how Trump litigates these matters:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/CommonestMan/status/1565159550704988160

    Here’s how it starts:
    “ Unfortunately, there is a tendency in the legal minds of Twitter to get pedantic and dismissive of Trump lawyers for their arguably weak position. But that is a mistake and not a good prognostication of how Trump uses the loopholes of the system rather than legal brilliance.”

    And it gets better from there. Well worth reading the entire thread. But the essence is, Trump throws every piece of cr*p he can at the litigation, realizing that sooner or later he will either get a sympathetic ear from the judge, or the other side will make a mistake that opens up a defense.

    BTW, I agree that it is a virtual certainty that this judge will appoint a special master. The “good” version will be, the special master is limited to attorney-client documents. The bad version will be, the special master has carte Blanche over the DoJ’s ability to do *anything.* I lean closer to the bad version.

    One silver lining: the longer it takes this judge to issue her ruling, the more trouble she’s had navigating around the thermonuclear devastation done to her original draft ruling by the DoJ.

  39. 39.

    gene108

    @jonas:

    He’s a goddamn toddler, nothing more.

    Toddlers learn new things and develop new skills at a very rapid rate.

    TFG is incapable of learning anything at this point in his life.

  41. 41.

    Sanjeevs

    I can’t understand the empty folders.

    I was assured by the NYT that trump was a paper hoarding pack rat and decidedly not a traitor who sold out America’s secrets.

  42. 42.

    dm

    @Tony G: I sometimes wonder if Trump has originals because they’re can-be-construed-to-be-incriminating intelligence collected on potential opponents, and other people he wants to squeeze.  Originals are, arguably, more persuasive evidence.

    He wants them for his next run.  He’ll release the stuff when it’s convenient and will do the most damage on an opponent.  Maybe through a cut-out.

    I think the thing that undercuts this notion is some of the classifications — TK is spy satellite stuff, unless it covers other kinds of collection?  Or were those labels saying “Treat this as secret as TK”, not necessarily saying “There is TK stuff in here”.

    Look at what he complained about Obama doing to him — all that stuff about “unmasking” info from foreign intelligence.  What do you bet he started talking about Obama doing that stuff when he learned he could do it?

  43. 43.

    gene108

    @New Deal democrat:

    Courts are utterly sympathetic to legal maneuvers. They’ll allow almost any motion for additional time, as long as the attorney doesn’t literally write it with crayons.

  44. 44.

    citizen dave

    I’m trying not to consume all my time reading about TFG’s missing and held documents case.  What I’m not getting is, the docket in Florida is the one that TFG filed there, complaining about this that and the other.  If the DOJ decides to charge TFG with serious federal crimes, don’t they just go ahead and DO that, in the venue of their choosing (or is it always in the DC Circuit–or lead to them–area?) ?  Why would the Florida case matter at all?

  45. 45.

    randy khan

    It really does seem that a part of DoJ’s strategy here is to make it obvious that every effort by Trump to delay or obfuscate will be followed by a response that just makes him look worse and worse on the substance.  Trump may or may not ever get the hint, but that almost doesn’t matter because the primary effect is that people get see exactly what he’s done as DoJ does things like including that photo in a brief.

    BTW, on the folders, given that there is tracking associated with the folders, I’m pretty confident that NARA and DoJ will figure out (and fairly quickly – indeed, they may have figured it out already) how much of that is sloppiness on Team Trump’s part (always something of a safe bet) and how much of it is evidence that documents continue to be withheld or have, uh, gone missing.  So I’ll wait to see, rather than guessing.

  46. 46.

    randy khan

    @citizen dave:

    The Florida case, at least in theory, could have an impact on what documents they get to use in the criminal case, which is why it matters.

    On the question of where a criminal case would be tried, I think it’s between D.C. and West Palm Beach.  Obviously, DoJ would like D.C. better if it’s possible, but whether it’s possible depends in part on where the crime actually occurred.

  48. 48.

    FelonyGovt

    @SiubhanDuinne: I so resent the fact that we all (STILL!) need to worry about the “thoughts” and motivations of a two-bit Queens real estate crook and reality TV show buffoon.

  49. 49.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @Tony G:

    Why didn’t he just make copies of these documents, sell the copies to Putin (or to the highest bidder) and then return the originals?  Is he just so stupid and reckless?  Or was there something else going on here?

    Mine! MINE! MINE!!!!! My preciousssss…..

  50. 50.

    Hoodie

    Delay may be a good tactic for Trump, but not necessarily for the GOP.    DOJ may have lured Trump and the GOP into a political trap.  The DOJ essentially forced Trump to make it political by moving forward with the legal case after giving him plenty of rope to hang himself.  He could have avoided this by simply complying; he could have raised all sorts of specious legal claims to get at least some of these materials back, but he would not be in legal jeopardy.  Now he has no defense other than a political defense that essentially amounts to “I am above the law.”   It looks like the GOP have decided to go along.

    However, every day this continues, they are further welded to Trump’s ass, allowing him to dictate their message, handicapping their candidates and keeping anyone else from emerging for 2024.  Come to think of it, this may be why Trump has acted in the way he has, i.e., he wanted some way to keep the GOP from memory holing him and replacing him with someone like DeSantis.  That poses severe problems for the GOP, as they are paralyzed until Trump’s legal situation is resolved, which will take forever because Trump will do anything to delay it.

  51. 51.

    WaterGirl

    @randy khan: Didn’t crime of taking presidential papers that didn’t belong to Trump occur in DC?  He removed them from DC, so that’s where the crime occurred.

    Maybe additional crimes of being careless with the papers occurred somewhere else, but I think there is plenty of case to be made that the crime was in DC.

    Obviously not a lawyer.

  52. 52.

    cmorenc

    @Another Scott:

    @Martin: I assume that the judge isn’t completely in TFG’s pocket since there wasn’t a ruling from the bench when she had the opportunity.

    Yet another possibility is that she will: 1) appoint a special master to review docs for privilege AND: 2) also allow DOG/Intelligence sevices to continue reviewing classified docs for damage assessment purposes; BUT: 3) caution that the DOJ risks any potentially incriminating information found in any document assessed by DOJ post-her-ruling risks being regarded as “fruit of poison tree” for purposes of any potential prosecution of Trump or Trump Admin figures, and hence inadmissible in any criminal trial of Trump et. al.

  53. 53.

    cain

    @New Deal democrat: ​
     
    She needs to be careful herself about her ruling and what it means to the rule of law.
    I’m sure she is meeting with her buddies at the Federalist Society on what to do

  55. 55.

    different-church-lady

    The utterly amazing thing is that if he had just given the stuff back when they first asked, the whole thing would have gone away quietly, without the public ever knowing he took them in the first place.

  59. 59.

    moops

    Also, he incited a riot to attack the Capitol.  That seems to get forgotten.  Also, he is Still Doing It, with his talk of pardoning the attackers.  Also, he attempted a coup, and kept at it, and is Still Doing It.

  63. 63.

    gvg

    @different-church-lady: Or he could have just not stolen classified docs in the first place.

    Never seems to have occurred to him or the republicans. That’s what I would have not done, so I am just not sympathetic to him at all and SO tired of the TV talking heads that waste my time by not pointing this out over and over and getting the stupider part of our public to get a clue.

  64. 64.

    trnc

     

    @AnonPhenom:

    Could also be that he and minions just indiscriminately grabbed folders on the way out. Kinda like accidentally flushing Goody’s headache powder with the coke stash.

  66. 66.

    sdhays

    @moops: Can you imagine being the head of an intelligence service reading about this and having to report that “no, we didn’t exploit the huge gaping leak of American classified material because we didn’t want to get someone to work as a maid at Mar-a-Lardo”?

  67. 67.

    trnc

    @Tony G:

    He literally thinks he owns anything related to being prez because he owns everything in his family business and because he’s beyond narcissistic.

  68. 68.

    sukabi

    @AnonPhenom: that would be my guess….and if they don’t find it in his possession they might have to assume it was sold, traded or gifted to someone not welcome to that information.

  69. 69.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Martin: ​
      It is one district judge who has not yet issued a ruling. District judges make weird decisions all the time. They have no binding precedential value. If Judge Cannon does approve a special master, it will be immediately appealed by the DOJ. IOW this is not a good situation, but it isn’t something to freak out about.

  70. 70.

    trnc

    @feebog:

    Garland isn’t going to do anything until after the mid-terms, in accord with DoJ policy, so we are looking at late November at best.

    Which seems odd, since DT isn’t on the ballot. But whatevs.

  71. 71.

    MattF

    FBI: What happened to the documents in the empty folders?
    Lawyers: He ate them.

    Remember, folks, we’re dealing with a lunatic.

  72. 72.

    marcopolo

    Didn’t read the entire thread but my take is different.  All these empty folders means there’s a lot more “national security” work to do tracking shit down. I’d assume everyone & their uncle who isn’t a trump sycophant is telling this judge time is of the essence here & that appointing the SM (who I’m guessing would then require much or all of the material for their review) would just slow everything down to the detriment of that.

    the details of this just keep getting worse & worse.  maybe I am totally naive but one would think that national security issues would take precedence over any other considerations at this point.

  73. 73.

    CaseyL

    When Judge Cannon appoints a Special Master (and she will), indications are that she will appoint one firmly on Trump’s team, like Richard Grenell.

    I think at some point DOJ will have no choice but to indict, or see their evidence of crimes committed vanish.

  74. 74.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Another Scott:

    I’m sure they’ll figure it out, but it will take time.

    Not if some friend of Trump becomes Special Master and just squirrels it all away in a deep hole, right?

  77. 77.

    CaseyL

    @Omnes Omnibus: Like you can’t file for a Special Master 2 weeks after the case beings?  Or like an ex-President has no Executive Privilege?  Or maybe like taking the documents at all is a crime all by itself… unless the Party that took them finds a friendly judge to hear his case?

    I would love to be wrong.  But the Federalist Society exists to wreck Federal law.

  78. 78.

    Mike in NC

    Next week we’ll learn that the FBI discovered a walk-in freezer at Mar-A-Lago, filled with human body parts. Trump will insist he knew nothing about them. “I’m not a cannibal. Jared’s the cannibal!”

    Meet Donald Trump, the Hannibal Lecter of American politics.

  79. 79.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @CaseyL:  Okay, you be you.  I’ll walk away from this thread.

    ETA:  Let’s see what actually happens before we give up on the republic.

  80. 80.

    Tony G

    The Waffen SS were elite soldiers.  Harvard and Yale have elite law schools.  “Elite” can mean toxic and dangerous sometimes.

  81. 81.

    Bobby Thomson

    The empty folders could mean all sorts of things.  I have zero doubt he’s already sold all sorts of information, which doesn’t require anyone ever seeing any documents.  He’s probably sold documents.  He probably keeps really shitty records.  He’s probably dumb enough to think he can hide a document behind a photo in a frame.  (There’s no way Gus Fring was that stupid, by the way.  Lazy writing.)  His “make me” impulse is strong enough that his lawyers undoubtedly had to pry out everything he actually did turn over, undoubtedly by telling him what he wanted to hear (this will end it).  Now that they took more stuff, he thinks he can create leverage by asking for its return, so that the feds won’t press as hard on the other documents they couldn’t even find in the search.  He’s reckless enough to have given some away as gifts to foreign leaders and to complete randos.  Recklessness, stupidity, greed, cruelty, and obstinate arrogance explain every single move he has ever made and ever will make.
    Edit: I should have added that my understanding is the folders are hand labeled with misspellings and not official folders with itemized contents.
    Tl;dr: “fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son,” but it’s worked for him so far.

  82. 82.

    Chris Johnson

    The missing documents are in Russia.

    How is this in any way complicated? DOJ surely knows. The more delay, the more of the reality is revealed. Now it’s ‘and these are the folders from which the documents have already been handed over to foreign intelligence operatives’. Who really thinks that’s all they’ve got?

    For those privy to the reality of this, it’s absolutely conclusive and they have all they need. Now it’s just a matter of forcing whichever Trumpist enablers remain, to crack and to flip lest they be charged as accomplices. That would also include this judge, who is being pressured to NOT act as an accomplice to what is pretty much the hugest espionage case that has ever been.

    I don’t mind if the judge foot-drags, the outcome can only be ‘acknowledge Trump is a fucking traitor’ or ‘get wrapped up right alongside him’. I don’t even care if she is a spy herself. Same choice, when it comes right down to it. Choose wisely.

  83. 83.

    Ken

    @Mike in NC: Since “human body parts related to cannibalism” wasn’t listed in the warrant, the FBI will have left them in place. So if we learn about the body parts, it will be for some other reason. Probably another rake-step; say, TFG demands release of the security footage, and the DOJ includes the scenes of him wrapping a human head in brown paper.

  84. 84.

    oatler

    a lot of satirical poetry about the raid, why not a Coleridge one? It would make use  of women wailing for demon lovers.

  85. 85.

    Barbara

    @Omnes Omnibus: As I said previously, DOJ will be working 24/7 to utilize the seized materials to pursue the investigation and damage assessment.  The judge is an ideologue but not an idiot, and it might be dawning on her that injecting herself into an ongoing criminal investigation with national security implications is not a good use of her power.  The fact that there are empty Nat Sec files means that DOJ is busy trying to put together individual pieces of paper with the files, and will likely serve as the basis for additional warrants for other locations.   Judges are not supposed to be supervising criminal investigations in real time.

  87. 87.

    Tony G

    @MattF: Or maybe they’re just fine with Trump’s treason and corruption.  I have a relative who (believe it or not) is a retired US Army general.  He’s as Trumpy a Trumpist as anyone can be.  (When we meet at family gatherings, I limit our conversation to family and football.)

  88. 88.

    James E Powell

    any reasonable person (currently about 55% of the population)

    You are more optimistic than I am. I’m thinking it’s somewhere below 40%.

  90. 90.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Martin: That’s really been the lesson for me for the past 6 years. Republicans have been on the wrong side of the historical, commonly understood law at every point. Trump did a lot of things that were explicitly forbidden, like taking foreign payments at his hotel, asking Russians to hack his opponent, or even small things like remaining the owner of a hotel where the lease explicitly said government employees couldn’t own it.

    And the problem is that every time, Republican voters, judges, and officials just decided that it wasn’t a problem and used their position’s powers to shut it down in contravention of all currently understood law. And then Republicans claim that since Trump wasn’t declared guilty he was clearly innocent, and Dems are just persecuting him.

    Every. Single. Time. They’re doing it now, too.

  92. 92.

    MisterForkbeard

    @citizen dave: I can’t believe it’s only 50%. It’s a cut-and-dried case of Trump stealing extremely sensitive documents he’s not allowed to have, refusing to return them, and then lying and stating he’d already returned it all.

    It’s like stealing 5 cars, giving one back to the police after a year of negotiations, then giving back one more 6 months later and declaring that you’d returned all of them. And then getting upset when the cops come and take the last three.

  95. 95.

    RaflW

    John Harwood leaving CNN today. He didn’t say why.

    He’s really one of the more clear-eyed and observant of the people (once) at that network. CNN brass just emptying the vessel to receive Trumpism.

  98. 98.

    eversor

    @RaflW:

    He got canned right after defending Biden’s speech last night.  Biden said bad things about people who vote for tax cuts, that’s not allowed and cannot be defended so firings are happening.

  99. 99.

    Ken

    @MisterForkbeard: I’d change the ending a bit, to “And then getting upset when the cops come and take the last one, and ask you what you did with the other two.”  

    Though I’m not sure what the grand-theft-auto equivalent of an empty classified-materials folder would be. Maybe you’ve got the owner’s manual with the VIN printed inside, which was in the glove compartment when the car was stolen?

  102. 102.

    MattF

    @Tony G: There will always be a minority-of-a-minority who will stick to Trump no matter what. The target is the dissatisfied minority-of-a-minority-of-a-minority on the margin. There’s a critical threshold, although exactly where it is, no one knows.

  103. 103.

    RaflW

    @MisterForkbeard: Yes.

    And when Biden gave his speech last night, the press decried his ‘break with tradition’ as if the past 4 years didn’t happen.

    Not only do Democrats have to fix the budget profligacy of Republicans and then get less than no credit for it, we also have to unilaterally repair “tradition” so that Republicans can steamroll it once again the moment they gain power.

  104. 104.

    Tony G

    @Another Scott: That’s right.  Maybe he just left the documents sitting around and let his “friends” photograph them as needed.  Deliberate carelessness can be as damaging as careful espionage.

  105. 105.

    eversor

    @MattF:

    They’ll still vote for him over a democrat.  Bill Barr is the perfect example.  After he tanked the Mueller investigation he was asked why and then talked about how because of the left causing  secularism, liberalism, sexual revolution, and lack of Christianity in everything he can’t live out the faith and can’t pass on the faith.  He stated clearly that the faith was the only thing that mattered.  He gave an unhinged rant at a school later stating the same thing.

    Barr after turning on Trump on the Jan 6 stuff and testifying then openly stated he’d vote for Trump because of the left.

    Unless we give them Jesusistan they will vote for anything or anyone against us and they will do anything including treason to get it.   There is no point in arguing or persuading people as long as Christianity is running rampant.  Alito has said the same thing as Barr.  These aren’t rubes these are very educated people but because they are deeply religious they are evil and willing to do anything for power because their religion corrupts everything it touches.

  107. 107.

    RaflW

    @eversor: Ahh, I see the grand offense now.

    @JohnJHarwood
    Biden’s assertion that Trump and extremist Republicans pose a threat to American democracy is, undeniably, true
    8:48pm 01 Sept 22

  108. 108.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Dan Froomkin/PressWatchers.org @froomkin 1h

    Now further updated: A knowledgeable source tells me @JohnJHarwood was informed last month that today would be his last day, even though he was on a long-term contract. “He used one of this last live shots to send a message,” the source told me

    Porter Anderson @Porter_Anderson

    Media: @JohnJHarwood : “The core point @JoeBiden made about a threat to democracy is true. [As journalists], we’re taught not to take sides in honest disagreements between parties. But these are not honest disagreements. The @GOP right now is led by a dishonest demagogue.”

  110. 110.

    JWR

    @zhena gogolia:

    When you’ve lost Bill Barr

    Oh jeez. Foxbot asks Barr if he thinks this “raid” was avoidable? Does he think maybe a second subpoena would’ve worked? Does he maybe believe in the Tooth Fairy, even if he has to squint really hard?

  111. 111.

    hueyplong

    Why are people speculating about Trumpian inadvertence/stupidity when outright malevolence nearly always turns out to be the correct answer?

  114. 114.

    Jay

    Guys, you are taking the empty “Classified” folders way too seriously.

    Who doesn’t steal “office supplies” from work, when they have been fired?

  115. 115.

    JWR

    @eversor: Well, the new guy at CNN was most recently producing Stephen Colbert’s show, so maybe all he ever saw was Colbert and other late night hosts tag-teaming on TFG, so now he wants to “balance” out CNN’s coverage. Wouldn’t surprise me if at all true.

  118. 118.

    Princess

    @Tony G: If you have the actual physical document, you can blackmail someone based on what is in it and promise to destroy the evidence. (At least in the crummy TV shows that no doubt inspired this caper). Can’t do that with a photograph.

    I bet we can already think of one person we think he has blackmailed this way and one international figure we could imagine him imagining this working on.

  119. 119.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @MattF: My husband’s theory (which makes a lot of sense to me) is that he needed the Top Secret documents in his “45” office at MAL to complete the picture of his pretend “I’m still president”.  He may have sold or given info to our enemies, but also could just hold on to TS docs because it showed he was president.  Very sad. Pathetic

    I see Another Scott got here/there long before me!

  123. 123.

    Taobhan

    This may be one of the rare times when Trump dragging things out endlessly may work to the Democrats’ advantage.  Trump was already doing a great job of boosting the Democrats in the mid-term elections and the case of the purloined documents is a bonus assist for us.  Trump will do his best to keep the case going well into November and it will probably be in front of voters’ eyes every day until the election.  Trump’s problems likely aren’t going to help Republicans’ chances a great deal.

  124. 124.

    WaterGirl

    @zhena gogolia: Barr gets no credit from me for telling the truth in this one instance – he is trying to separate himself from Trump and all the illegal stuff he did, which Barr enabled and supported.

    He is not a credit source for talking about what the DOJ should and should not do, or anything else about the DOJ.  He sold it all down the river and he needs to be in jail, too.

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