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America is going up in flames. The NYTimes fawns over MAGA celebrities. No longer a real newspaper.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

Petty moves from a petty man.

Let me file that under fuck it.

The republican speaker is a slippery little devil.

75% of people clapping liked the show!

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Damn right I heard that as a threat.

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Mediocre white men think RFK Jr’s pathetic midlife crisis is inspirational. The bar is set so low for them, it’s subterranean.

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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Bill Barr Is A Lying Liar Who Lies

Bill Barr Is A Lying Liar Who Lies

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Bill Barr is a lying liar who lies.  It’s a travesty that the media gives him credibility by interviewing him – when he deserves to be shunned (and prosecuted) for helping to undermine democracy and the rule of law?

God help us if his redemption tour actually works.

Bill Barr Is A Lying Liar Who Lies

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154Comments

  9. 9.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I remember while in office Barr gave a speech about secularism and permissiveness at Notre Dame and as I listened to him wheeze away, I thought, “Somebody close to him is gay and he can’t handle it”

  10. 10.

    James E Powell

    Despite everything in Elie Honig’s excellent twitter thread, the Village just loves Bill Barr.

    Memo to Beltway Courtiers: He is a liar and he is evil and, by the way, he despises all of you.

  15. 15.

    Edmund Dantes

    Why does everyone skip the crap he did as AG under HW? He was part of Iran Contra cleanup. He was the person that kicked off the original federal whitewater investigation. I’m sure there is plenty more. The guy was rotten before the original redemption tour they gave him saying he’d be the one to help stabilize and cleanup DOJ under Trump.

  16. 16.

    kindness

    Republican leaders & Daddies don’t care about rules or ethics.  They only care about power.  Those same leaders knew Trump was a mob connected con artist but went along for the ride in 2016 because they thought they could control Trump.  Well they got the judges & the deregulation they wanted but they found they couldn’t control Trump.  And that includes Trump’s relationship with Putin.  Given the choice of ethics in 2020, those same Daddies again chose power knowing what Trump also did.

    Those leaders & their MSM handmaidens don’t deserve their positions in our land.

  17. 17.

    Layer8Problem

    Barr has been a nasty piece of work since at least high school.  I assume the man wakes up literally thinking what kind of assholitry can be committed today, what can be done to further the rightful cause of the elite over the proles.

  18. 18.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Speaking of Geoffrey Berman:

    A book by a former top federal prosecutor offers new details about how the Justice Department under President Donald J. Trump sought to use the U.S. attorney’s office in Manhattan to support Mr. Trump politically and pursue his critics — even pushing the office to open a criminal investigation of former secretary of state John Kerry.
    The prosecutor, Geoffrey S. Berman, was the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York for two and a half years until June 2020, when Mr. Trump fired him after he refused a request to resign by Attorney General William P. Barr, who sought to replace him with an administration ally.

  19. 19.

    Eunicecycle

    @Edmund Dantes: I know, right? When all of the TV lawyers, mostly ex-DOJ, sang his praises and said he was in “institutionalist” I was thinking, THAT guy? To their credit, most have publicly admitted they were wrong.

  23. 23.

    Betty Cracker

    The only positive thought I can muster re: the Barr reputational rehab tour is that it’s probably all for naught. He’s a corpulent, wheezy 70-something who is therefore unlikely to remain a threat to democracy for many more years. On the other hand, Kissinger…

  24. 24.

    Urza

    I may have missed it, why has absolutely no one interviewed Mueller?  One would think he’d want to clear the record.

  25. 25.

    catclub

    @Layer8Problem: ​
     Barr has taken the place of Dick Cheney as the pernicious GOP hack whose opinions must be listened to.
    Both have deep voices. Just think if they had British accents!

  27. 27.

    Kelly

    We received an email last night from our electric company advising us they plan to shut down power lines midnight Friday to Saturday evening due to fire hazard. There were many reports of power lines starting fires during Oregon’s 2020 Labor Day fires and massive lawsuits are working their way through the system.

  29. 29.

    Roger Moore

    Bill Barr is a crook who appears to have decided Trump went too far for his tastes.  Or maybe he’s decided Trump is weakened and now is the chance to attack him so he’ll have more credibility when he supports the next criminal who tries to take over the party.

  30. 30.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Urza:

    I may have missed it, why has absolutely no one interviewed Mueller?  One would think he’d want to clear the record.

    His former aide Chuck Rosenberg had Mueller on his podcast. After about twenty minutes of CR trying to draw out a response with more than three syllables, I bailed. I think even if he were in the pink, Mueller just doesn’t believe in talking outside of official reports

  32. 32.

    p.a.

    My pinhead Catholic relatives come out with this church=state bullshit and I then ask them if Utah Catholics’ tax dollars should go to support the Mormon church.  “Well, no…”

  34. 34.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    Barr is only speaking out because Dump fired him and attacked him with his usual vulgarities.

    He’s offended his groveling wasn’t rewarded by daddy.

  36. 36.

    Roger Moore

    @JPL:

    I hate these please fix my reputation tours, and the media falls for it all the time.

    Those media personalities- and their bosses, mustn’t forget their bosses- want to make sure the media repair tours are still available when they need one.  If there’s something we should have learned from the wave of #MeToo discoveries in the media, it’s just how many media members will need a chance to repair their reputations.

  37. 37.

    Geminid

    @Roger Moore: I think Barr is a dedicated Republican who knows that trump is now a liability to the party. Barr got some good use out of the guy but now he’s just trash that needs to be bagged up and sent to the dump.

  38. 38.

    UncleEbeneezer

    A federal grand jury investigating the activities leading up the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol and the push by former President Donald Trump and his allies to overturn the result of the 2020 election has expanded its probe to include seeking information about Trump’s leadership PAC, Save America, sources with direct knowledge tell ABC News.

  40. 40.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

     Berman describes federal prosecutors pursuing politically charged investigations when they’d be advantageous to Trump, and blocking them in cases where they’d be damaging. In one incident, according to the book, officials at the U.S. attorney’s office in Manhattan unsuccessfully pushed to remove all references to Trump in charging documents related to his former fixer Michael Cohen, who ultimately pleaded guilty to campaign-finance violations related to alleged “hush money” payments made to women who alleged they’d had affairs with Trump.

    Berman alleges that when he was prosecutor in 2018, he was informed of interference in the case against Cohen. Then-Attorney General William Barr tried to squash investigations into campaign-finance violations by figures in Trumpworld in 2019, and even suggested Cohen’s conviction could be tossed despite him already having pleaded guilty, Berman wrote.

    After Kerry sparked the wrath of Trump on Twitter by trying to save the nuclear deal with Iran that Trump pulled out of, Berman wrote, Justice Department officials tasked his office with pursuing an investigation into Kerry.

    “The conduct that had annoyed the president was now a priority of the Department of Justice,” he wrote, adding that: “No one needed to talk with Trump to know what he wanted. You could read his tweets.”

    Despite DOJ officials imposing pressure with what Berman described as questions along the lines of “Why aren’t you going harder and faster at this enemy of the president?” the investigation ultimately went nowhere.

    It would have been nice if he came forward with this two years ago. It would be nice if exposed names other than Barr.

  41. 41.

    Betty Cracker

    @Urza: I don’t assume Mueller, a Republican who is good friends with Bill Barr, wants to clear the record. He certainly had his chance in Congress and mostly declined, doing the bare minimum that integrity and professionalism required.

    Of course, willingness to do the bare minimum demanded by integrity and professionalism is a unicorn-rare trait in a modern Republican, so it’s tempting to assume a Republican who displays that trait shares our goal of seeing justice done. But that’s probably a mistake.

  42. 42.

    Ruckus

    @Betty Cracker:

    They have money. Maybe not endless money, but they have money and access far more than the none that they deserve. That can give them healthcare that many in this country still do not have access to, because of course healthcare HAS TO BE a money making process in American life. They have the opportunity to eat better, to pay for the expensive drugs, doctors, etc. They have no idea what hauling that bale, or actual physical work is, or being in good or even reasonable shape. Because they get saved, financially, health wise, even politically. They mostly get saved from their just plain stupidity, their monetary stupidity, their health stupidity because their lives do not revolve around actual physical work of any shape or kind. They are the unprofessional, conservative, upscale, shitheads, such as Barr. Sure in the end they go too far and all but shoot themselves in the genitalia to save us all? Nope, they only do that when they have fucked up so far that there is no way out, not money, not lying, not obfuscating, not even switching sides/betraying their bullshit. And they will do all of that before even thinking they were in any way wrong, because they can’t be wrong, because something, something, greatness, bullshit is of course almost always on their side.

    How could a trump or a barr ever get to the levels they did? I believe it’s called ultimate bullshit. Just keep bullshiting till you believe yourself, at which point you can convince anyone who thinks bullshit is the normal course of events so a consensus can be formed around said bullshit. And you end up with a political party that is formed upon bullshit and theft. We call it our current republican party.

  43. 43.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

     Former President Donald Trump … now appears to be threatening a lawsuit against Fox News for allowing political ads produced by vocal Never Trump group The Lincoln Project.

    Trump took to his social media platform Truth Social to call out Fox News after he ostensibly saw an anti-Trump ad on the network, which he continually criticizes yet still tunes into

    This is the ad that is freaking him out (video)

  44. 44.

    prostratedragon

    I keep being reminded of that lawyer who on Jan. 6 said to Eastland, “Because of your bullshit we are now under siege. “

  45. 45.

    Barbara

    @Betty Cracker: I keep coming back to the David Rothkopf analysis of why journalists seem incapable of accurately reporting on the Republican Party that actually exists.  I didn’t link it when I had the chance, but basically, the contacts that DC journalists forge with Republicans includes a lot of the kind of people I know well, and work with a few — the kind that are utterly disdainful of Trump but want someone else to do the hard work and take the reputational hit of standing up to him.  Whether it’s Adam Kinzinger, Liz Cheney, or Peter Meijer — they don’t care — and importantly, they know that no one will back them up if they take that role.

    Mueller isn’t solidly in that camp, but he’s close — more of a wishful thinking that someone else will do the hard work so that he can keep raking in clients and money that depend on his reputation for studied neutrality.

    So, as much as I roll my eyes at George Conway or Rick Wilson, understand that they really have burned a lot of the bridges that probably supported them financially.  Almost no one else is willing to do that, including Mueller.  Mueller just has a better excuse than most not to go public (i.e., prosecutorial discretion).

  47. 47.

    Cacti

    The media trying to rehabilitate the reputation of this fat toad are a disgrace.

    Barr was up to his eyeballs in Trump corruption..

  48. 48.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Barbara:

    Mueller just has a better excuse than most not to go public (i.e., prosecutorial discretion).

    everything I’ve read is that Mueller was an eccentric cat long before trump came along, and would have had to turn his mental/psychological battleships around quickly and sharply at a pretty advanced age to act differently than he did. Rod Rosenstein, on the other hand, was and is a hack. I wonder how he and his sister Nancy Messionier look back now

  49. 49.

    Baud

    People on Reddit are speculating that the Queen has died, but they are holding off on reporting it because Harry and Meghan haven’t arrived yet.

  53. 53.

    Rick Taylor

    It doesn’t mean he’s a good guy, but if Bill Barr opens some Fox viewers to the possibility that maybe possibly Trump really did break the law in an egregious way, he’s doing a service.

  54. 54.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Old School: In his lockstep actions to protect Trump and the Republican Party from all their misdoings, Barr has revealed himself as the only nonpartisan choice for Special Master.

  55. 55.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: I just saw that the PM’s office has announced that they are going to make a sad announcement. Which reminds me of the US pols who announce their going to announce their candidacy, or trump telling his supporters they’re going to be very happy about his decision about ’24.

  56. 56.

    Ruckus

    @Roger Moore:

    Bill Barr is a current day republican leader. A muck raker as it were.

    He is like all the rest, basically worse than useless, except at screwing over everyone else for his perceived benefit. He’s not even all that stupid, he does have the ability to recognize when the only thing he’s pushing is shit and everyone else knows it too. And he has a level of self preservation that is at least higher than his level of gotta steal everything not tied down. That puts him about 10 steps above SFB. Sure he’s still in the sub basement of humanity but he understands standing on everyone else to keep from drowning. That’s some self preservation. Now the stupid part is that he was willing to run down those stairs in the first place, into that sub basement of humanity for the possibility of a rising tide of shit raising his boat.

  59. 59.

    Hoodie

    @Rick Taylor: Not really.   Trump was useful to guys like Barr as long as they were in position to cover for Trump’s various screwups.  In that arrangement Trump was, on balance, more of an asset than a liability.  Since he is no longer in a position to cover for Trump using the DOJ, Barr is trying to clear the field for the next grifter, e.g., DeSantis.   Guys like Barr are now afraid that Trump will continue to control the GOP base – which isn’t large enough to garner a majority – and lead to another defeat in 2024.   Above all, Barr is a Republican fixer and everything he does is about protecting the club and expanding its power.

  60. 60.

    zhena gogolia

    A relative is reminding me that my father always referred to any Royal Family member as “goddamn bloody Englishman.”

  62. 62.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I gather Bannon has turned himself in

    BrooklynDad_Defiant! @mmpadellan 1h

    Overheard as Steve Bannon was led into the police station: “stop hurting America, you greasy, two-bit grifter!” Perfection.

  63. 63.

    zhena gogolia

    @Barbara: The Mueller Report is a monumental piece of investigative work, and if every American read even the redacted version that was published by numerous news outlets, they would never again entertain the idea that it was a “Russia hoax.”

  64. 64.

    rikyrah

    Still waiting for the apology from those in the MSM, who told us when Barr was selected for Dolt45’s AG, that this was a good thing.

     

    And, those of us who said that he was a phucking criminal….

     

    we’re still waiting for the apology.

     

    Barr was always a phucking power hungry ghoul.

  65. 65.

    UncleEbeneezer

    NEW: Steve Bannon has been indicted on two felony counts of money laundering, two counts of conspiracy, and a felony count of scheming to defraud. If convicted of the most serious charge, he could face 5-15 years in prison.

  66. 66.

    zhena gogolia

    It’s going to be weird to get used to King Charles III. Or will he choose a different name like Bertie did?

  68. 68.

    Layer8Problem

    @Elizabelle: Jesus, the first thought in my head is crap, days worth of People magazine-quality salutes, retrospectives, celebrations, and memorials in any and all media driving out all else. The second is a human being died.​

  70. 70.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @Elizabelle: Makes me sad. Also not looking forward to all the jerks in the US who will feel the need to screech about MONARCHIES SUCK and stuff. I’ve already seen one FB friend say it’s disgusting that there will be a lot of money spent on her funeral and such when some people in the UK can’t afford rent. Like………………….

  72. 72.

    rikyrah

    UH HUH

    UH HUH

     

     

    John Harwood (@JohnJHarwood) tweeted at 6:23 AM on Thu, Sep 08, 2022:
    “A book by a former federal prosecutor offers new details about how Trump’s Justice Dept sought to use the US attorney’s office to support Trump politically and pursue his critics — even pushing to open a criminal investigation of ex-Sec State John Kerry.” https://t.co/KkX5Q5vOrd
    (https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status/1567836062768152577?t=OoPWpf-I5URR5SlcGlC2eA&s=03)

  73. 73.

    zhena gogolia

    @Alison Rose 💙🌻💛: Yeah, I have mixed feelings. I understand the criticisms from sc and Tony Jay, but she seems to have performed the role imposed upon her with great strength and discipline, and I have to admire that. (Maybe I shouldn’t have watched The Crown! But I think I would think that anyway.)

  76. 76.

    WaterGirl

    I think Barr is trying to save his own ass, nothing more.

    No change of heart.  No change of mind.  No “Trump has finally gone too far” bullshit.

    Barr knows the *jig is up and his plan is to not go down with the ship.

    *It’s heartening to think that Bill Barr is thinking Trump is going down.

  77. 77.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @zhena gogolia: Not my country, not my government.  The British can run their country as they choose.  The woman herself seems to have taken her job seriously for longer than I have been alive.  It will be interesting to see what changes come once she is no longer on the scene.

  78. 78.

    sdhays

    @Geminid: Along those same lines, he didn’t go fully along with the January 6 insurrection plans after the November election because he just didn’t believe they had enough pieces in place to make it happen.

    If he had thought it might actually work, he would have been all in.

  79. 79.

    CaseyL

    Barr, along with Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney, started out long ago as fixers/democracy saboteurs in one after another GOP Administrations:  Ford, both Bushes, and Trump.

    They’re all traitors; they’ve all done their best to hollow out actual democracy and leave a meaningless shell in its place.

  80. 80.

    Layer8Problem

    @sdhays:  I can believe it.  He had that vibe.  He would have been all in and getting the measurements for his gauleiter‘s uniform.

  86. 86.

    Geminid

    @zhena gogolia: I wish Mueller had released his report in two parts. The part that detailed Russian interference and included indictments of several Russians was very detailed, and it would have gotten much more attention had it been put out by itself.

    But all the different components of Mueller’s investigation were all covered in one release. The headlines were that Mueller could not prove Trump’s collusion, and they drowned out the other parts of the story that were also important and that Muellar did prove.

  87. 87.

    Anyway

    I hate Downton Abbey and never watched -The Crown- but am indifferent about QE2. Glad we don’t have a monarchy.

  89. 89.

    WaterGirl

    @sdhays:

    @Geminid: Along those same lines, he didn’t go fully along with the January 6 insurrection plans after the November election because he just didn’t believe they had enough pieces in place to make it happen.

    If he had thought it might actually work, he would have been all in.

    I agree with every word, and I bolded the absolutely truest part.

  90. 90.

    WaterGirl

    @JPL: I think it’s both.  She wants to save democracy and she hates Trump.  Probably hates him for himself, but even more for the damage to the Republican party.

  91. 91.

    cain

    @Edmund Dantes: Because it was a scandal that didn’t have a “-gate” to it. You know how these press people are. If there is no “-gate” then ‘no bueno’. What you gonna do? In the mean time, there is so much superficial shit to go after. Hell even Democracy dying is a great thing – just think how many eyeballs will be watching and how much we can raise advertising rate! We’ll make billions! [sarcasm]

  93. 93.

    Cacti

    @zhena gogolia: It’s going to be weird to get used to King Charles III. Or will he choose a different name like Bertie did?

    My respect for him would go through the roof if he chose Kong I as his regnal name.

  94. 94.

    dm

    Barr’s father was the fellow who hired Jeffery Epstein to be a math teacher at a girls’ private high school, wasn’t he?

  96. 96.

    Anyway

    @Cacti:

    The media trying to rehabilitate the reputation of this fat toad are a disgrace.

    Barr was up to his eyeballs in Trump corruption..

    Totally.

    (Had to see “fat toad” again.)

  98. 98.

    Captain C

    @rikyrah: Hopefully that will take a bunch of sales from Maga Habs’ new book:  Multiple Felon:  How I watched a criminal in the White House and didn’t say shit because I wanted book sales.

  99. 99.

    MisterForkbeard

    @rikyrah: That looks like a good 20% of women aren’t paying attention or (if this follows the Trump model) aren’t willing to admit that they’ll vote for the person who hates and oppresses them… because they’ll also oppress minorities.

  101. 101.

    sdhays

    @WaterGirl: I’m skeptical that he thinks his own ass is on the line. People like him are both careful to avoid straightforward crimes and are connected enough to make going after them on more complicated crimes not worth the effort. His whole career has been about getting away with things, so I suspect that he just assumes he untouchable anyway.

    But I think he’s distressed about how Trump could help bring down the Republican Party and potentially EVERYTHING he’s been working for his entire career.

  102. 102.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @sdhays: Yeah, Bill Barr is a rich old man who almost certainly correctly fears no consequences. He just finds trump vulgar

  104. 104.

    CaseyL

    @rikyrah: Shades of the crazification factor (ht John Rogers): two white women running, so factor out a lot of confounding factors, but one of them is obviously nuts.

    But Party ID has become so much more a determinant since Rogers coined the term (cf the Senate race in Georgia between Warnock and Walker, where Walker is clearly incapable of coherent thought) so the original “27%” cap may have to be expanded.

  108. 108.

    Burnspbesq

    @Geminid:

    I think Barr is a dedicated Republican who knows that trump is now a liability to the party. Barr got some good use out of the guy but now he’s just trash that needs to be bagged up and sent to the dump.

    Exactly.

    He’s also a prime example of a certain kind of DC BigLaw partner, who thinks he/she/they can talk his/her/their clients out of the deepest of deep shit, and for whom actual litigation is seen as a system failure. In my less lucid moments, I wonder if his agenda for going on Fox and explaining to the rubes what deep shit Trump is in is to keep the rubes from rioting if/when Trump is indicted, or maybe to try to make Trump understand that a deal in which he pleads guilty to the Espionage Act and obstruction charges in exchange for dropping the 2071 charge and no or minimal jail time would be a win.

    Remember, the 2071 charge is the 800-pound gorilla, because in addition to jail time and a fine it carries a lifetime ban on holding Federal office. I know there are some lawprofs out there who think it doesn’t apply to the Presidency, but I think they’re on drugs—and Trump sure as shit doesn’t want to be the test case.

  109. 109.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @WaterGirl:  Barr is like John Bolton. Some asshole with a crazy cause that was taking advantage of that idiot Trump to push Barr’s cause for a few years.

  110. 110.

    Another Scott

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: +1

    I think that Barr thought he could protect/create the Imperial Christian Presidency that he’s wanted for ages and that’s why he wrote his 20 page job application.  Mueller holding TFG to account would destroy that work.  He probably also thought he could control TFG when it came to the DoJ.

    It was never about TFG as a person or his policies, it was about trying to be the puppet master and make the office of the President even less accountable.

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  115. 115.

    Ruviana

    @brantl: I watched it and he seemed sort of hesitant.  In Adam Schiff’s book he mentioned how confused Mueller seemed.. I have wondered if he had mild dementia.

  116. 116.

    Layer8Problem

    @Ruviana:  Oh, he’s thinking of one of those festive tent city things where people come from hundreds of miles around for charitable free health care from genuinely concerned private sector medical professionals.  If something like that happens in Tennessee the media are all over that.

  119. 119.

    Roger Moore

    @cain:

    Because it was a scandal that didn’t have a “-gate” to it. You know how these press people are. If there is no “-gate” then ‘no bueno’.

    Interesting, because I’m the exact opposite way.  Adding “gate” to the end of a scandal is a media attempt to make it sound more serious by associating it with Watergate.  That’s a sure sign it doesn’t have enough behind it to stand on its own.  If it’s a real scandal worth paying attention to, it will be able to survive on its own merit.  Of course some of the scandals will blow up and we’ll discover they’re really serious, but one of the key signs that has happened is when they lose the “gate” suffix.

  120. 120.

    pat

    @Ruviana:

    I watched it and he seemed sort of hesitant.  In Adam Schiff’s book he mentioned how confused Mueller seemed.. I have wondered if he had mild dementia.

    That was my impression too.

  121. 121.

    Tony G

    @MattF: Something interesting in Barr’s Wikipedia entry: “Barr and Robert Mueller have known each other since the 1980s and are said to be good friends. Mueller attended the weddings of two of Barr’s daughters, and their wives attend Bible study together.”  As George Carlin famously said: “It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it.”.

  122. 122.

    Roger Moore

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Yeah, Bill Barr is a rich old man who almost certainly correctly fears no consequences. He just finds trump vulgar

    Bill Barr fears no personal consequences.  He cares deeply about the long-term Republican project to replace real democracy with White supremacy.  Turning on Trump is a sign he sees him as a liability to that project who needs to be cut loose.

  123. 123.

    J R in WV

    @Betty Cracker: ​
     

    I watched Mueller’s testimony closely on one or another of the live feeds that day. He struck me as suffering from age-related dementia, nearly unable to turn pages and read from those pages.

    So I don’t expect him to ever contribute to the conversation about Trump’s crimes. He can’t really any more.

  125. 125.

    CaseyL

    @Baud: ​
     

    There have been a couple of firstborn Princes with that name, but none lived long enough to become king.

    Mostly famously, Henry VII’s firstborn son was named Arthur – he’s the one who married Catherine of Aragon. He died a few days later without consummating the marriage, and she went on marry his brother Henry… who was Henry VIII.

  127. 127.

    J R in WV

    @zhena gogolia:

    A relative is reminding me that my father always referred to any Royal Family member as “goddamn bloody Englishman.”

    But the actual royals are actually German, not English.

  128. 128.

    Bex

    @Baud: Almost.  Henry VIII’s older brother was Prince Arthur.  He was expected to be king and had married Katherine of Aragon when he died young, probably of TB.  Henry later married Katherine whom he later wanted to divorce in order to marry Anne Boleyn.  The Pope said no dice, but Henry married her anyway, and named himself head of the English church.  And we think the modern royal family have colorful lives!

  130. 130.

    geg6

    @dm:

    Yes, much like Queen Elizabeth’s son was a predator right there along with Epstein.  And she did nothing to stop it even when it was exposed.  Oh well, but she drove some trucks in WWII and is a complete heroine.  Unlike Barr, I guess.

  132. 132.

    geg6

    @CaseyL: ​
     
    It was more than a few days after their marriage. However, she was widowed pretty quickly. If she’d been smart, she would have run back home and forgotten all about the Tudors. But, as is true of most royals, she wasn’t very smart.

  133. 133.

    Bex

    @geg6: I’m not sure Ferdinand and Isabella wanted her back.  The marriage was about a Spanish-English alliance, so she waited for Henry.

  135. 135.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @geg6: There is a world of difference between liking the Queen and being sad that she might be passing and “worshipping the monarchy.” I don’t know anyone who does the latter, but it seems like a lot of people consider the former to be the same as the latter. I don’t worship the Queen just because I have a fondness for her and think it is sad that someone’s mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother is dying.

  137. 137.

    Paul in KY

    @zhena gogolia: There have been at least 2 and maybe 3 heirs to the throne named Arthur who died before they became king. I think they think that name is bad juju.

  138. 138.

    Paul in KY

    @Bex: Henry VII was not about to return that dowry and had physical control of her. She had no choice in the matter.

  139. 139.

    Roger Moore

    @CaseyL:

    Interesting related tidbit of trivia: no Duke of York has succeeded in passing his title to his son since the Wars of the Roses.  Every time there’s been a Duke of York since then, either the Duke has failed to produce a legitimate male heir, or his older brother has, and the Duke has wound up succeeding to the throne.

  140. 140.

    Paul in KY

    @Roger Moore: Henry VIII was Duke of York and I think his son was also Duke of York, before getting the PoW stuff (Duke of Cornwall, etc. etc.)

    Could be wrong on that, though.

  142. 142.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @zhena gogolia:  Well his full given name is Charles Philip Arthur George, so without untoward ado he could style himself Charles III, Philip (the First?), Arthur (the Second?) or George VII. (IMO he’d stay the hell away from Arthur unless he wanted to be boiled in oil by the British people.)

  143. 143.

    Tony G

    @Tony G: So … in 2019 Barr lied about and sabotaged the hard work of his “friend” Mueller, and Mueller refrained from publicly calling out his “friend” Barr on Barr’s lies.  One big club.

  144. 144.

    Roger Moore

    @Paul in KY: ​
     

    Henry VIII was Duke of York and I think his son was also Duke of York, before getting the PoW stuff (Duke of Cornwall, etc. etc.)

    Nope. Henry VIII was crowned king before any of his children were born, which meant all his titles were returned to the crown. If either of his sons had been made Duke of York (they weren’t) it would have been a new creation.

  145. 145.

    Tony G

    @Roger Moore: That sounds about right.  Trump has served his purpose for the fascist movement.  Time for him to go to a comfortable retirement, and be replaced by a younger, marginally smarter model.  DeSantis is probably the front-runner in that category.

  146. 146.

    Another Scott

    @Uncle Cosmo: I still remember when Diana mixed up the order of his names during their wedding.  Was kinda humanizing.

    The only thing I know about Beth is what the press has said over the years.  Everything’s slanted to get Clicks and Engagement, so who knows how much is true.  We do know that the British Monarchy enabled a whole bunch of monstrous human behavior for hundreds of years that still curses us to this day, so it’s hard to look beyond that and say that she’s mostly just a kindly old grandma…

    Nothing says Christmas 2018 like a billionaire sitting in front of a gold piano telling us all to pull together through this difficult time. pic.twitter.com/uQ2G9ao1iS

    — Guffers (@gavmacn) December 24, 2018

    I hope her passing is on her terms, and I hope that whoever follows is not a monster.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  147. 147.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Bex: And we think the modern royal family have colorful lives!

    Hah. Pikers. I am currently rereading John Julius Norwich’s A Short History of Byzantium & lemme tellya, kids, there is enough bloodstained chicanery in the average century of Eastern Roman Emperors to put the entire history of British monarchy to shame.

  148. 148.

    Roger Moore

    @Uncle Cosmo: ​
     

    Arthur (the Second?)

    It would be Arthur I, or just Arthur until there was an Arthur II. The English didn’t start numbering their monarchs until after the Conquest. Before that, kings would be distinguished from others of the same name by an epithet (e.g. Edward the Confessor and Edward the Martyr) rather than a number. The numbers started with William the Conqueror. The first several Norman kings had names that had never been used by English kings before (William, Henry, Richard, John) so there was a relatively clean break to establish the new tradition of numbering. Edward Longshanks was the first post-Conquest king to have a name that was used before the Conquest, and they stuck with Edward I rather than Edward III.

  149. 149.

    Roger Moore

    @Tony G:

    Trump has served his purpose for the fascist movement. Time for him to go to a comfortable retirement

    Yeah, but he isn’t cooperating on that front, so the people who see things that way are trying to get rid of him through harsher means.  I suspect part of his decision to move to Mar-a-Lago is the lack of upper story windows for him to fall out of.

  152. 152.

    evodevo

    @Uncle Cosmo: Yep…made the Western Empire look like pikers lol – and of course the Eastern Empire lasted till ~1400 AD or so, thus having twice as much time for hijinks…

  153. 153.

    brantl

    @Eunicecycle:  I remember all the bullshit about how he would be “The grown-up in the room” in the Stump administration. That reeked while they said it.

  154. 154.

    J R in WV

    @pat: ​
     

    @Ruviana:

    I watched it and he seemed sort of hesitant. In Adam Schiff’s book he mentioned how confused Mueller seemed.. I have wondered if he had mild dementia.

    That was my impression too.

    By the time he testified before congress, there was nothing “Mild” about it at all. He could barely read a simple sentence out loud.

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