Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

It’s time for the GOP to dust off that post-2012 autopsy, completely ignore it, and light the party on fire again.

T R E 4 5 O N

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Come on, man.

Not all heroes wear capes.

Why did Dr. Oz lose? well, according to the exit polls, it’s because Fetterman won.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

Eh, that’s media spin. biden’s health is fine and he’s doing a good job.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

Everybody saw this coming.

The republican caucus is already covering themselves with something, and it’s not glory.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

The words do not have to be perfect.

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

“More of this”, i said to the dog.

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Open Thread / Judge Dearie at 2pm Eastern

Open Thread / Judge Dearie at 2pm Eastern

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This post is in: 

 

Update: President Biden spoke for less than 5 minutes.  This is now an open thread.

The DISCLOSE Act:

The Democracy Is Strengthened by Casting Light On Spending in Elections Act or DISCLOSE Act is a federal campaign finance reform bill that has been introduced in the United States Congress since 2010.

The DISCLOSE Act will be up for a vote this week.  I wouldn’t have known about this if Biden hadn’t spoken about it  Will there be enough Republican votes?

Open thread.

 

Reader Interactions

229Comments

  3. 3.

    CaseyL

    Somewhat OT: I tried calling in to the Preliminary Hearing with Special Master Dearie, and the call doesn’t go through. I don’t know if that’s because too many people have already dialed in or because the phone line won’t open until 2:00 ET on the dot.

  5. 5.

    Steeplejack

    This is starting well.

    HAPPENING NOW: I have dialed in to Judge Dearie’s courtroom, and apparently the system has left every single caller unmuted—so it sounds roughly like midtown at rush hour, but with the added benefit of dozens of people screaming at each other to shut up.

    — Kyle Cheney (@kyledcheney) September 20, 2022

  6. 6.

    CaseyL

    @WaterGirl: They posted a phone number, 571-353-2301 Access Code 620191294.  I get nothing but empty air, though.

    ETA: A lot of Trumpies have called in using screams, music, and random noise to try disrupting the proceedings.  The court is going to mute everyone.

    @joshgerstein appears to be livetweeting the hearing; I may just follow that.

  12. 12.

    Betty Cracker

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I had a unique situation with a work Zoom yesterday. One person’s dog freaked out because someone came to the door, and that freaked my dog out, so he started barking too. I quickly plugged in a headset and quelled the problem on my end, but the other person’s dog continued to erupt periodically. It was funny, really.

  18. 18.

    WaterGirl

    @Steeplejack:   All I see is this tweet, and nothing more than a discussion of MUTING.

  19. 19.

    Anonymous At Work

    Question for Adam tonight: The new Russian laws about desertion/surrendering as well as failure to obey an order.  What good do these new “laws” actually accomplish?  Especially since both enlisted and officer quality is, to put it mildly, “done scrapping the bottom of the barrel and in the process of digging a hole.”
    To make it into a joke, are we about to see a bunch of 18 year old junior officers tell troops, “The order is to fight until you’re dead,” with a convicted serial killer reply, “Right.  We’ll fight until you’re dead, sir.”

  22. 22.

    SiubhanDuinne

    I love wordplay as much as anybody, but I’m really rather tired of these laboured backronyms.

  24. 24.

    Steeplejack

    I thought the “host” of a Zoom meeting (if that is what this hearing is) has the ability to mute everybody. Is that not the case? That would presumably be the court’s IT minions.

  29. 29.

    Steeplejack

    @WaterGirl:

    On my computer, at least, this is the first reply (from Kyle Cheney), and if you click that you get Cheney’s thread—which is not very long because the event is just getting started.

    Sometimes Twitter’s live threads can be a little glitchy. Usual advice is to click/highlight the most recent one or the penultimate one.

  30. 30.

    CaseyL

    From joshgerstein’s thread:

    Judge: I follow directions. I do what I’m told….We are going to proceed with what I call responsible dispatch.

  33. 33.

    dmsilev

    @CaseyL:

    ETA: A lot of Trumpies have called in using screams, music, and random noise to try disrupting the proceedings.  The court is going to mute everyone.

    I’m sure judges just *love* it when advocates for one side are a bunch of performative assholes who work to disrupt a hearing. Definitely the right way to sway a judge who might be on the fence.

  34. 34.

    CaseyL

    More from gerstein:

    Judge asked if inventory is in dispute. Trusty says he’s not sure but why don’t they all see the documents first.

    Judge seems to brush back Trump team by saying that ‘litigation strategy’ isn’t going to affect his resolution of recommendations to Cannon. That may refer to Trump unwillingness to detail his stance re whether he claims he declassified anything and how.

  36. 36.

    lowtechcyclist

    @rikyrah:

    New: One of Trump’s fake electors, Cathy Latham, testified under oath that she didn’t copy sensitive elections software in a GA elections office; claiming she never went there. New surveillance video shows Cathy spent 3+ hours at the GA office taking selfies w one of the copiers:

    Whatever else she may have done, now she’s on the hook for perjury.  Enjoy your time in the slammer, lady.

  40. 40.

    CaseyL

    Judge says speakers are free to take masks off.

    Edelstein speaks for govt says DOJ ready to give docs to vendor by tomorrow.

    Trusty says they just got the lost of five. Asks for Friday to pick a vendor.

    Judge says: Let’s do it tomorrow.

    ETA: Oh, and this was earlier in the hearing; I didn’t see it, but it could be significant:

    It’s related in a way to an issue in the dispute: Is it properly before Judge Cannon or should it have been brought first to Judge Reinhart, who issued the search warrant. Special Master Dearie has flagged this as a potential Q in the fight. That seemed to irk Trump’s team.

  42. 42.

    Betty Cracker

    @Anonymous At Work: I was just reading about those new laws, plus the fact that Putin moved up the referenda in several Russian-held portions of Ukraine to “rejoin Russia.” The article said they’d delayed the referenda earlier because there wasn’t enough support.

    Why would Putin care about that? He knows how to ratfuck our elections — can’t he ratfuck theirs? But now they’re making people in penal colonies vote yes, etc. Still, it sounded dicey. Ukraine’s recent military successes can’t help that cause.

  43. 43.

    CaseyL

    Continuing:

    Judge asks Bratt about what to do with classified docs if 11th circuit doesn’t step in. Defers to Edelstein, who say govt will ‘most likely…consider other appellate options at that point.’ I think only option is #SCOTUS.

    Judge is asking what his role would be re marked classified docs. ‘How am I going to verify the classification?….What business is it of the court?’ Dearie says, assuming Trump side doesn’t put forward evidence of declassificiaton.

  45. 45.

    dmsilev

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: As I understand it, DOJ proposed uploading scans of the documents to some web app run by a third party which allows both legal teams and the judge to look at them and annotate them separately.

  46. 46.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @dmsilev: Thank you. I couldn’t imagine who would be a vendor.

     

    Big from Dearie:He presses Trump’s lawyers on what he’s supposed to do. The government provided “prima facie evidence” of classification, ie, the markings.“As far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it.”— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) September 20, 2022

  47. 47.

    WaterGirl

  50. 50.

    dmsilev

    @WaterGirl: It’s rather hilarious to realize that Trump’s team thought that they were getting a hates-the-FBI hack when they suggested Dearie and instead they’re getting an actual “laws matter” judge.

  53. 53.

    Steeplejack

    @Betty Cracker:

    Is Putin trying to escalate things so that the “special operation” becomes a war of national defense, after the contested Ukrainian oblasts (fake-)vote to become part of Mother Russia?

  54. 54.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Anonymous At Work: The phrase for what the Russians are doing is “the beatings will stop when moral improves” . Putin and company are all stick and no carrot and their mule has starved to death.

  56. 56.

    Gravenstone

    @CaseyL: That seemed to irk Trump’s team.

    I so appreciate the fact that their insistence on choosing Judge Dearie looks like it is going to repeatedly bite them in the ass. Hard.

  57. 57.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @WaterGirl:

    Big from Dearie:

    He presses Trump’s lawyers on what he’s supposed to do. The government provided “prima facie evidence” of classification, ie, the markings.

    “As far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it.”

    Boom, that’s it. That’s the money quote

  62. 62.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Now Trusty is asking about getting security clearance process started. Judge says he thought of that earlier but adds: 'It's not just a matter of having clearance. It's a matter of need to know…if you need to know you, will know.'— Josh Gerstein (@joshgerstein) September 20, 2022

  64. 64.

    CaseyL

    Oops, sorry: I was posting gerstein’s tweets in the wrong thread.

    Latest:

    Judge says he hopes he can resolve matter w/o seeing the classified if possible. Edelstein emphasizes that some on prosecution team don’t have the necessary clearances. Trusty: ‘It’s kind of astounding to hear the government say the president’s lawyers don’t have a need to know.’

    Fuck that.  HE IS NOT THE PRESIDENT, YOU CORRUPT SLUGS! <- Me,  not Judge Dearie.

  69. 69.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @CaseyL:

    ‘It’s kind of astounding to hear the government say the president’s lawyers don’t have a need to know.

    What a stupid fucking thing to say. These are national secrets we’re talking about. Not everybody on the prosecution team is going to have “need to know”. I’m sure it takes time to even get those clearances at any rate

  72. 72.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Gravenstone: The fact that Trump though this judge was perfect because the Dearie just had to be brimming with resentment at the FBI over some bullshit about a warrant is proof that Mary Trump is right about Donald Trump being incapable of empathy.

  73. 73.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @oatler:

    The SC has ruled against Trump in an executive privilege case earlier this year, WRT to his tax information. It’s not a slam dunk that the SC would rule in his favor

  78. 78.

    germy shoemangler

    “What are you in for?”

    “Jaywalking”

    “How long you gonna be in?”

    “Five years.”

    “Five years for jaywalking??”

    “I called the judge ‘Dearie'”

  81. 81.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    I’m reading arguments that the point here is that DoJ lawyers also don’t need to know.  No one does, the classification markings are enough unless Trump’s team can make an argument, which they’re not doing, and Dearie isn’t thrilled about seeing any of this himself if he can avoid it.

  82. 82.

    Mallard Filmore

    @Betty Cracker: 

    The article said they’d delayed the referenda earlier because there wasn’t enough support.

    Why would Putin care about that? He knows how to ratfuck our elections — can’t he ratfuck theirs?

    Why even care about the votes? Voters can go to the polls for sure, but the results can be pre-printed in Moscow at any time.

  83. 83.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    Y’know, here’s something I’ve been wondering: where does TFG get these lawyers? He’s radioactive, who wants to touch him? I know everyone is entitled to legal defense, but come on! And how do they think they’re ever going to get paid?

  85. 85.

    piratedan

    @CaseyL: and in response, that should imply that the FORMER President’s lawyers should have even less of a need to know.

    They  (TFG’s crew) haven’t indicated how these are unclassified and until they do, in Dearie’s opinion.. they are.  Since they are clearly marked with the appropriate government designation, he’s going to play it as it lays, they are classified until shown/proven otherwise.

     

    or so it seems…

  86. 86.

    Ken

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): There is surely precedent. For example, did Reality Winner’s lawyers get access to the classified document she leaked? (Not a perfect example, of course, since it had been leaked, but recent precedent.)

  87. 87.

    germy shoemangler

    thread:

    Trump's lawyer is now pulling out Fox News talking points, calling the National Archives a "partisan political organization" that can't be trusted. He cites a recent gov website disclaimer about the offensive nature of some historic docs.
    — Jose Pagliery (@Jose_Pagliery) September 20, 2022

  88. 88.

    hueyplong

    @WaterGirl: Trusty’s reply to everything is simply a “disagreement” to take back to Judge InHisPocket so she can exercise “supervisory discretion” over Dearie.  Back and forth to no resolution is the game.

    It’s really sort of that simple.

  90. 90.

    hueyplong

    Just remember that Trump is paying to have Dearie take liberties with his hind section today.  No doubt Cannon will let him get away with stiffing Dearie for as long as possible.

  91. 91.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @hueyplong: Might be why Dearie is just rushing this along. If Trump isn’t going to pay him then there is no reason for Dearie to spend anymore time than necessary on it. lol

  92. 92.

    Ken

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:  the Dearie just had to be brimming with resentment at the FBI over some bullshit about a warrant

    It seems a natural set-up for the late-night comedians.  “TFG thought he was getting a judge like this” — roll tape of Kavanaugh hearing where he was vowing revenge on the Democrats who dared to question him.

    I’m also waiting for Judge Dearie to direct TFG’s attorneys to prepare a 100-page brief by Thursday noon, demonstrating that they have minimal understanding of the laws regarding classified materials and their purpose; so that he can determine if there is any point in trying to get them clearance to see so much as the titles of these documents.

  93. 93.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    where does TFG get these lawyers?

    They have been incompetent hacks, but he just got one with a good, established reputation as skilled.  A PAC payed the guy 3 million up front.  The lawyer’s firm immediately dropped him, how onerously I don’t have the expertise to understand.

  95. 95.

    ...now I try to be amused

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    The SC has ruled against Trump in an executive privilege case earlier this year, WRT to his tax information. It’s not a slam dunk that the SC would rule in his favor

    The institutional Republican Party (and I expect the Federalist Society) want Trump gone, but none of them want their fingerprints on the knife.

  96. 96.

    CaseyL

    Gerstein’s twitter hasn’t updated in quite a while, so I don’t know what’s going on now.

    ETA: But from other Twitter commentary it appears that Judge Dearie has sided with DOJ and the documents are indeed classified.

    No idea what happens next.

  99. 99.

    CaseyL

    From DutytoWarn:

    The hearing has ended. Dearie does not seem likely to give the Trump team access to the classified docs – from the parts we heard. The Trump team left without comment.

  101. 101.

    hueyplong

    @Matt McIrvin: Judge pretty much always has the final word regardless of what happens with a special master (or if a matter has been delegated to a magistrate judge).

    The Cannon thing is a worry, but that worry exists in any case.

  104. 104.

    Scout211

    And in the filing to the 11th circuit, Trump’s team continues in the same vein. They aren’t classified but we won’t tell you why or how. Link

     

    Trump again, however, declined to provide evidence that he had declassified the documents before leaving office.

    Trump told the 11th US Circuit Court of Appeals that it should not buy the Justice Department’s argument that the documents should be presumed classified while the government reviews them. Trump said that the Justice Department, in its previous filing with the appeals court, “assumes – without either side presenting any proof – that the documents are, in fact, classified.”

    . . .

    The latest filing from Trump emphasized the authority a president has to declassify records and leaned into the idea that the documents’ classification status at this point should be viewed as ambiguous.

    “The Government again presupposes that the documents it claims are classified are, in fact, classified and their segregation is inviolable. However, the Government has not yet proven this critical fact,” the Trump filing said.
    . . .

    In a footnote, however, Trump also argued that “at best” the government may be able to establish that some of the records in question belong with the National Archives, but Trump said they do not belong with the Justice Department.

    “However, it is not even possible for this Court, or anyone else for that matter, to make any determination as to which documents and other items belong where and with whom without first conducting a thoughtful, organized review,” his filing said.

    Another footnote hinted that he may be able to assert privilege over documents marked as classified that are said to have his handwritten notes.

  106. 106.

    CaseyL

    @germy shoemangler: Yes, but my understanding has been, if the Special Master decides all the documents the DOJ is fighting to preserve are indeed classified, then there isn’t anything for him to review…?

    Then I guess we wait for the 11th Circuit to decide whether the government can resume reviewing its own freaking documents for security and criminal violations.

  108. 108.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Scout211:

    Okay, this reads like someone who knows what they’re doing finding a way to turn Trump’s insane demands into a strategy.  A desperate strategy, but a strategy.  The DoJ is not going to reveal why the documents are classified because that gives tells as to their contents.  So claim the DoJ isn’t presenting anything for Trump’s lawyers to respond to.

  109. 109.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    BREAKING: Judge Dearie makes clear he is taking government’s position that the classified Mar-a-Lago documents are in fact classified.

    “What business is it of the court? … As far as I’m concerned that’s the end of it.”

    Trump’s insistence on a special master is NOT going well.
    — Tristan Snell (@TristanSnell) September 20, 2022

  111. 111.

    hueyplong

    @zhena gogolia: Yes, but after Dearie said that, Trump’s people didn’t so much as push back with an alternative thing for him to think.  In the non-Cannon world, that means we can probably rely on Dearie to do what he said.

  114. 114.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    The judge didn’t have a choice: if one party swears in open court, under penalty of perjury, that the sky is blue the other party declines to challenge then the judge has to accept the statement.​

  116. 116.

    Barbara

    If they are marked as classified and TFG doesn’t present any evidence that they aren’t, then the judge doesn’t really have a basis for ruling that they are not classified.  It’s not up to the judicial branch to make such a ruling, and even if there were some judicial process to review classification, someone would have to offer evidence that the documents don’t meet standards for classification, or were declassified, or whatever.  There is no way a judge is going to simply substitute his own judgment on this point.  I am assuming Trump’s lawyers are not surprised by this.

    Reading the tweets, the lawyers seem really eager to get access to the classified documents, and judge pointedly pushed back on issue of need to know . . .

    Judge Dearie must feel like he is in Wonderland.

  117. 117.

    Geoduck

    Probably already been said, but.. it’s the usual Shiatgibbon legal tactic, gum up the works, run out the clock and hope that the GOPers take control in November and kill any further investigations.

  118. 118.

    MisterForkbeard

    @germy shoemangler: That’s really sad. “Some documents in the national archive have outmoded thinking and may have sections in them you find offensive” is the most ridiculous basis for “partisanship” I’ve ever heard.

  119. 119.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Geoduck: ​

    hope that the GOPers take control in November and kill any further investigations.

    Not physically possible. The DoJ isn’t changing hands. If that’s the strategy, it’s as stupid as ‘no strategy, just throwing shit based on Trump’s insane demands.’

    EDIT – Seriously, what can they do?  They ain’t gettin’ a supermajority in the Senate that can override Biden’s veto.  The midterms cannot change this.  ‘Delay for years’ might be a strategy.  ‘Delay until after the midterms’ isn’t.

  120. 120.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    THIS IS HUGE: Judge Dearie just DESTROYED Trump’s previous defense that the documents were “declassified” saying the matter is over and he will consider them CLASSIFIED. Trump is f*cked.

    — CALL TO ACTIVISM (@CalltoActivism) September 20, 2022

    Judge Dearie is just destroying Trump's lawyers here.

    — George Conway🌻 (@gtconway3d) September 20, 2022

    I'd like to report a murder.

    — George Conway🌻 (@gtconway3d) September 20, 2022

  122. 122.

    Scout211

    @Geoduck: I agree, but it wouldn’t this November, it would be until the next Presidential election. Biden still has 2 more years (at least!).  But I can see those delays being strung out by the Trump team that long, or at least they will try.

    ETA. Or what Frankensteinbeck said @119

  126. 126.

    hueyplong

    @David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch: “The judge didn’t have a choice: if one party swears in open court, under penalty of perjury, that the sky is blue the other party declines to challenge then the judge has to accept the statement.”

    Of course, Cannon pretty much did what you say a judge can’t do.  It’s a nice summary for non-lawyers as to why the DOJ should win the appeal.

  129. 129.

    topclimber

    @Frankensteinbeck: Every day delayed today means any indictment is delayed another day as well. Trump may also get some free days if he is running for Prez (ya think?) and the trail date gets close to election day 2024. Norms about affecting elections being so important when Republican are involved.

  130. 130.

    Sean

    @Frankensteinbeck: A republican house could target funding mechanisms, salaries, and various other strategies in that vein to put pressure on officials/departments, or otherwise gum up the entire thing. Greg Sergeant at the Post has written about these particular dangers a few times in the last few months. Not sure if they’d be successful, but it’s a part of what they’d try. All the more important to hold the senate (and house for that matter).

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/19/trump-ohio-rally-investigations-mar-a-lago-jd-vance/

    But there’s more. A GOP-controlled House could revive a House rule enabling Republicans to target the salaries of individual federal officials — say, Attorney General Merrick Garland — or groups of federal employees, in an attempt to subvert those investigations and prosecutions.

    Such tactics would be thwarted by a Democratic Senate or a presidential veto. But House Republicans could push for government shutdowns to leverage targeted defunding of investigations or prosecutions. They could threaten debt ceiling breaches (and economic disaster) toward that end.

    Also, Dems ought to do everything they can to address the debt ceiling via reconciliation before a theoretical GOP takeover of the house. (e.g. raise it to a level that is unreachable for decades). But Manchin will probably ensure that can’t happen.

  131. 131.

    Brit in Chicago

    @MisterForkbeard: I don’t think the Trumpists care about the fact that some docs are offensive etc. I suspect their point is that the fact that the Archives thought they had to say that shows that they’re woke, with all that that implies.

  132. 132.

    lowtechcyclist

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Wake me up when [Trump] is clamped in leg irons.

    Sure, but given the speed at which the wheels of justice grind along, you’re gonna have to change your handle to Rip van Winkle.

  133. 133.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Frankensteinbeck: Nah, but the GOP could kill congressional investigations and start their OWN investigations into the DOJ to continuously fuck things up. That’s very obviously the threat and has been for some time; McCarthy and others screaming about how “Garland is on notice to preserve all documents” and so on.

  134. 134.

    C Stars

    Is there any concise summation of Trump’s legal argument? Or is it just too incoherent? All I understand is that he claims the documents shouldn’t have been removed because he says they’re declassified/should not have been classified.  And the DOJ is arguing that yes, they are classified.

  135. 135.

    Another Scott

    @Betty Cracker: Last night in Adam’s thread:

    ISW: Russian proxies’ urgent calls to join Russia causing panic. The Institute for the Study of War said Russian proxies’ calls to immediately annex Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts “is panicking proxy forces and some Kremlin decision-makers.” As Russia does not control the entirety of either oblast, annexing proxy territories would mean Ukrainian-controlled areas would be “by Kremlin definition partially ”occupied” by legitimate Ukrainian authorities and advancing Ukrainian forces,” the ISW said. This would “place the Kremlin in the strange position of demanding that Ukrainian forces un-occupy “Russian” territory, and the humiliating position of being unable to enforce that demand,” according to the ISW.

    (via KyivIndependent News Feed)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  137. 137.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Geoduck:

    Probably already been said, but.. it’s the usual Shiatgibbon legal tactic, gum up the works, run out the clock and hope that the GOPers take control in November and kill any further investigations.

    There’s a reason I kept on saying that the reconciliation bill should have fully funded DOJ through the end of 2024.

  138. 138.

    Ken

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Project Gutenberg Distributed Proofreaders runs into that all the time, when prepping books and documents from the last four centuries. It’s even written into the guidelines.

    The final electronic book seen by a reader, possibly many years in the future, should accurately convey the intent of the author. If the author spelled words oddly, we leave them spelled that way. If the author wrote outrageous racist or biased statements, we leave them that way. If the author put commas, superscripts, or footnotes every third word, we keep the commas, superscripts, or footnotes.

  140. 140.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Not physically possible. The DoJ isn’t changing hands. If that’s the strategy, it’s as stupid as ‘no strategy, just throwing shit based on Trump’s insane demands.’

    EDIT – Seriously, what can they do?

    Refuse to fund the DOJ without a rider saying that there will be no funding for any investigations of the insurrection, the Mar-A-Lago documents, or anything else potentially involving TFG.

  142. 142.

    Ken

    @C Stars: Is there any concise summation of Trump’s legal argument?

    “Shit flung at the wall to see what sticks” is about the shortest description I’ve seen.

  143. 143.

    Barbara

    @C Stars: My understanding of the original point of his complaint was that the DOJ unlawfully took his personal property and should return it.  So the whole argument should revolve around whether (a) he has any possessory interest in documents, and if so (b) whether they are subject to any privilege that would make them off limits to the DOJ.

    In my view, the only privilege that could apply is attorney client, and I am pretty sure that is DOJ’s view (which is why they set up a taint team to look at the documents).  Judge Dingbat, however, said that they might also be subject to executive privilege, but refused to rule on why or how.

    I can’t for the life of me understand how classified versus unclassified helps resolve either of these disputes, bogus as they might be, but it seems like Trump might have been taking the position that because they were declassified they somehow became his own personal property subject to one of these privileges.  But he won’t actually even assert that they were declassified, on the basis that it might require him to tip his hand on a defense he might assert to a putative future criminal charge that has not yet been filed.  Basically, his ideal outcome is to keep kicking that particular can down the road.  But that would make the special master exercise basically futile because the special master could not possibly rule even under TFG’s own cockamamie theory, but that is probably the endgame.

  145. 145.

    JWR

    One of the commenters on Teri Kanefield’s latest post, (Sept 17), suggested that maybe Cannon is scared sh*tless that this case landed in her lap because she knows that any ruling not in TFG’s favor will result in death threats, etc., but if she pulls Judge Dearie for refusing to suck up hard enough to TFG, then that suggestion falls right apart. Right?

  146. 146.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @MisterForkbeard: ​

    That’s very obviously the threat and has been for some time

    I guarantee you Garland doesn’t give a shit, and if it were Trump’s threat he’d be screaming it from the skies.

    @C Stars: ​

    Is there any concise summation of Trump’s legal argument? Or is it just too incoherent?

    No, it’s not incoherent, just incredibly weak. Trump’s team arguing that it’s not fair to take the government at their word for what is and isn’t classified. Trump’s team claim that they themselves may need to keep the details of why the documents aren’t classified secret, because it’s unfair to expect them to tip their hand with an argument they may need to make in criminal court. So they insist that either the government put up or shut up, or otherwise the process should continue in a legal limbo where the documents may or may not be classified, and by the way their boss wants his documents back, damn it! They’re his!​

  147. 147.

    Another Scott

    @Cameron: +1

    In different words:

    TFG want the stuff.  He’s told his lawyers to get the stuff back.

    Unfortunately, it’s not his stuff.  Classified documents belong to the US Government, not a Former POTUS, not a Current POTUS.  Official US Government Records (even stuff like the sharpie hurricane forecast map that he supposedly pilfered that isn’t classified) belong to the US Government, not a Former POTUS, not a Current POTUS.

    There is no controversy about this.  The rules are clear.

    But TFG wants what he wants, and he has people willing to make fools of themselves and break our rules and norms to try to make him happy.

    And to try to keep him out of jail…

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  148. 148.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Brit in Chicago: Oh, I know what they’re saying. And they’re going to do exactly what they did today, yelling “NARA says the Constitution is offensive, this is clearly work and partisan and they’re out to get Trump on a fake charge they’d totally let Hillary Clinton get away with”, etc.

  150. 150.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Absolutely true.

    But I think having a simple “hey, this stuff isn’t sanitized for good reason and you might be offended” by some of it… anodyne. Is that the word I’m looking for? So unobjectionable that no one should even notice it?

  151. 151.

    Barbara

    @Frankensteinbeck: Yes, sort of, but it doesn’t explain why there is any argument whatsoever whether the documents are classified and why that makes any difference.  The original filing for a special master had nothing to do with classification, and reviewing them wasn’t the point of the filing.  The judge just refused to keep them out of the mix of what should be reviewed for possible AC and Executive Privilege, insane as the latter concept is wrt a former president.

  153. 153.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Barbara:

    Oh, the non-classification part was “Uh… uh… let’s not be hasty SQUIRREL.”  I don’t think they even had an argument about the special master’s timetable, they just whined in their brief that it was faster than Cannon asked for.  Everything but the classification argument zipped by so fast the lawyers on Twitter barely mentioned it.

  154. 154.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Barbara: My understanding that Trump wants the special master to rule on ALL the documents as to whether they’re privileged or not – partially to delay, and partially for PR reasons. Cannon went along with it and forbade the FBI/DOJ from criminally investigating any of the documents, but nebulously said that a national security impact investigation could sort of proceed.

    The DOJ requested an exemption specifically for the classified documents, as they couldn’t do the national security investigation under those conditions and that there were real NatSec implications to what she was insisting on. Cannon turned them down repeatedly and was clearly trying to gum up the whole thing with Dearie.

    Dearie is not playing along and basically just said “The government can prove they’re classified, you’re not willing to contest that, so they’re classified”, and that means Trump’s lawyers don’t get to see them and can’t withhold them from the DOJ’s investigation, as they’ve been termed “not privileged”.

  155. 155.

    Shalimar

    @JWR: That’s bullshit.  If Cannon was scared, she had an easy solution which also would have been the legally correct one: punt it back to the original judge because he has jurisdiction.

  156. 156.

    jimmiraybob

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: ​
     

    Trusty went out and told the cameras that the National Archives was a partisan political organization.

    When the case is Trump v. United States then anything and anyone suspected of support for the US is, therefore, quia sic dicimus, partisan. (my retainer to be a Trump attorney is $4 mil)

  157. 157.

    C Stars

    @Barbara: @Frankensteinbeck @Another Scott:  Thanks and thanks and thanks. It is as convoluted as I expected. I have become a little tired of the endless parsing of TFG’s various dissimulations, and frankly have tuned out most of the coverage.

    (It’s the media’s fault, even NPR–constantly trying to fill in the blanks, pretend like it all makes sense, like there is some kind of precedent for all this stupidity. It’s transparent and exhausting.

    And yet everyone seems to be playing along. Except perhaps this Dearie Fellow.

  158. 158.

    Barbara

    @Frankensteinbeck: I know.  Objectively speaking, this is a puny number of documents.  I can’t remember total volume but it won’t take long to get through them.

    I am not convinced, indeed, I am more or less convinced to the contrary, that DOJ would ever have indicted Trump if it just got the documents back, at least without more evidence that he had misused information.  Publicizing the FBI’s warrant makes indictment more likely, and that’s all his own doing.

    Which brings me back to my belief that he REALLY wants those classified documents to remain in his clutches for some nefarious purpose.

  159. 159.

    Anonymous At Work

    @MisterForkbeard: Kinda yes, kinda no.  The Youthful Federalist, Cannon, set terms and conditions for the national intelligence review that *basically but not literally* preclude the FBI from continuing.  This is because the documents in question contain such high classifications that only a small handful of FBI personnel can view them.  But those personnel cannot be involved in the criminal investigation.  There’s just not enough people to have separate teams and the DIA, CIA, and NSA all cannot act on the investigation because it involves a US citizen on US soil.

  160. 160.

    Brachiator

    @Barbara:

    I can’t for the life of me understand how classified versus unclassified helps resolve either of these disputes, bogus as they might be, but it seems like Trump might have been taking the position that because they were declassified they somehow became his own personal property subject to one of these privileges.

    I don’t understand this. From news reports and articles about the presidency I assume that most working papers, emails, memos, etc belong to the federal government. I also presume that classified material created for or reviewed by a president is available to the next president. I assume a continuity of the office of president.

    Trump seems to asset that his presidency is unique and disconnected from the executive branch and the entire federal government.

    Trump is suggesting that presidential transitions are meaningless. He can decide which documents and materials the next president can see even if they are vital to ongoing government interests.

    He is also strongly implying that if he commits criminal acts as president he has an absolute right to withhold and control all documents which might relate to his crimes.

  161. 161.

    Barbara

    @Another Scott: No, classification is not the benchmark for what is owned by USG.  ALL executive documents belong to the government regardless of classification status.  Classification just makes that point a lot more obvious to the casual spectator who might not have thought about it much.  Now, of course, DOJ would be particularly anxious to get classified information back because of potential national security implications, but Trump doesn’t own any executive documents.  At most, he made the issue confusing by intermingling his own personal documents with executive documents.

  162. 162.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Barbara: ​

    I am not convinced, indeed, I am more or less convinced to the contrary, that DOJ would ever have indicted Trump if it just got the documents back

    I agree. Seeking a conviction against a former president would be the kind of high profile case where the DoJ would have to cross every t and dot every i to be confident of winning, where they could not afford to do anything wrong. That means giving him multiple chances to do the right thing, even when no one else gets those. But the narcissistic shit just couldn’t give up his Precious.

  163. 163.

    Anonymous At Work

    @Shalimar: The Youthful Federalist, Cannon, cannot punt it back.  She was picked specifically for this court location to give Trump a protector against legal action.  She’s the escape hatch to which he can raise BS arguments and have her delay, defuse, or dilute legal actions as long as possible.
    What’s happening HERE is that the law and precedent are so clearly against what Trump wants that she is blatantly to do her “assigned task” but has nothing to work with that passes the laugh test.
    Hence, it’s confusion, convoluted, and infuriating to everyone not already in Trump’s cult.

  164. 164.

    🐾BillinGlendaleCA

    Being this is an open thread…

    Yesterday I mentioned that I’m looking at a new(to me) camera. There were a couple of questions in comments that I couldn’t answer since I was headed off to my late shift at the Home of the Orange Apron.

    I’m thinking of purchasing a fellow photographer’s used Sony A7ii and possibly having the filter removed that filters out UV and IR so that I can use filters to capture light that otherwise is diminished by the filter in the camera.  This will be my second camera and will move me into the full-frame Sone ecosystem.  I eventually want to get a Sony A7iv as my primary camera.

    While my current camera can take some good shots, but it has a smaller sensor that reduces the light that reaches the sensor by about 1/3 to 1/2 over a full-frame camera.  The old NX1 is also beginning to show it’s age in that some of the dials aren’t working all that well

  165. 165.

    lollipopguild

    @Ken: “President Trump is still president and still has all of his powers and oh by the way he is also a GOD and you must give him everything he wants.”

  167. 167.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Barbara: Andrew Weissman and Jill Wine-Banks made this point yesterday.  Usually these sorts of cases involve Tetrabytes of files. One hundred files should only take a judge 1-2 days, at most, to review.

  168. 168.

    Another Scott

    @Barbara: I think we’re on the same page.  Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

    TFG’s broken brain tells him that he can do what he wants and the rules don’t apply to him.  He’s convinced a bunch of people to do his bidding, even when the rules and the law are clear that he’s asking for something illegal/impossible/stupid/dangerous or all four at once.

    It’s kind of amazing to see how many people are willing to set their careers on fire for him, but humans are strange beasties.

    I hope that the Twitter people saying that his indictment won’t come before 2024 are wrong, but I guess we’ll see.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  169. 169.

    Anonymous At Work

    @Frankensteinbeck: I think it was Dahlia Lithwick writing that the DoJ’s primary fear here is that proving “mens rea” or “mental state” for non-lawyers, is hard at best.  The DoJ would have to prove that Trump knowingly did some things, beyond a reasonable doubt, to people too ill-informed to have political opinions, quite possibly in Florida.  Most of the crimes have some level of mens rea involved…EXCEPT the ones involving possession of national security documents, which are currently barred from being used in any investigation by The Youthful Federalist, Cannon.
    Hence the main problem.  All it takes is one person on the jury to believe “Well, maybe he did think he owned everything” to prevent a conviction, but the ways to avoid that go through an ambitious and young over-promoted politician looking for higher office.

  170. 170.

    UncleEbeneezer

    This is some serious, Breaking Bad Finale-level shit:

    “In April, authorities acting on a tip said they found charred piles of wood and bone on a five-acre patch of Logan County, opening one of the grisliest and most sensitive criminal investigations in Oklahoma’s recent history.

    Behind the 10-foot metal walls of a compound with links to the Universal Aryan Brotherhood, a white-supremacist prison gang, officers found what they believe to be a body dumping ground where multiple people ended up dismembered and burned, according to four Oklahoma officials with knowledge of the investigation. They spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the extraordinary security precautions around the case.”

  172. 172.

    Mo MacArbie

    @MisterForkbeard: But I think having a simple “hey, this stuff isn’t sanitized for good reason and you might be offended” by some of it… anodyne. Is that the word I’m looking for? So unobjectionable that no one should even notice it?

    Yes, but these are people who live to object. They fly off the handle when they hear “Para Español, presione dos.”

  173. 173.

    Citizen Alan

    @JWR:

    If that’s Dingbat’s concern, she could save herself and all of us a lot of trouble just by deciding that she has some unexpected health issues and retiring from the bench. I doubt a FedSoc cultist would ever do that, but a guy can dream.

  175. 175.

    Citizen Alan

    @Anonymous At Work:

    I doubt it would happen, but at what point would Dingbat’s conduct become so egregious that the 11th might direct her to recuse from all matters pertaining to Donald Trump. I mean, I’ve seen a lot of judges with more ethical character than her recusing themselves from cases where the conflict was a lot more attenuated than “This guy nominated me to be the federal judge to which all future cases filed against him in Florida will go.”

  176. 176.

    Anonymous At Work

    @UncleEbeneezer: “But President Trump was receiving contradictory advice from so many different sources at the time that he might not have believed any one piece of advice.”  I can present that line, given more time, without having Trump testify.
    And if you were a true MAGAt, what’s perjury to get onto Trump’s jury?  Or QAnon-curious?  DoJ typically only brings air-tight cases at this level.

  177. 177.

    ian

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    the National Archives was a partisan political organization.

    This is what the Trumpists will call any and all government attempts to bring an end to their lawlessness.  NARA? Partisan.  DOJ? Partisan.  FBI?  Partisan.  Hell, if CBP catches someone smuggling a love note from Kim Jung Un to the Donald through the Mexican border?  Partisan.

    It has nothing to do with the actual partisan makeup of any government organization and everything to do with giving their supporters a reason to shoulder on.

  179. 179.

    Matt McIrvin

    @ian: Congressional Republicans discovered long ago that you could make any bill “partisan” simply by opposing it en bloc, then criticize it for being partisan. It’s the same principle.

  180. 180.

    JWR

    Okay, one respected commenter says that Judge Dingbat, (I love that term), could’ve punted back to the correct court, another respected commenter says otherwise. So which is it? (And I want MY answer NOW, dammit! /s)

    PS. As most have probably inferred, IA most definitely NAL.

  183. 183.

    RaflW

    @germy shoemangler: One of the goals of an authoritarian takeover of a country is to shatter the reputation and credibility of institutions that are repositories of history.

    Only trust in dear leader and his minions is to be promoted. All else is expendable.

  184. 184.

    Jeffro

    Heeeeyyyyyy: now instead of DeathSantis and what not, we can call him Governor Onesie-Twosie!

    no link ’cause I can’t link to tweets, but ol’ Ron gave a press conference and his explanation for “importing” asylum seekers is that they don’t come to Florida in large groups, they come over “onesie-twosie” (the implication being, how can I pull off a political stunt for Fox News with just “onesie-twosie”s?) LOLOL, sorta

    He’s now under criminal investigation in TX and the asylum seekers have launched a class action suit against him in Massachussetts.

    Enjoy your time in the spotlight, you turd!

  185. 185.

    RaflW

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: At this point, judge Cannon likely does not care about her reputation, since she’s already forfeited any sort of self-respect or dignity.

    But if she fires Dearie, who it seems like is a respected and widely-accepted-as-fair jurist, she’ll be cementing her future to the tuchus of Fpotus.

  187. 187.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @RaflW: ​
    Whether the 11th circuit will back her up also has to be a concern. Even most Trump judges aren’t completely fucking bonkers, and respect the law enough to merely bend it. His litigation success rate has been dismal even with his own judges. The crazier her decisions get, the more likely appeals judges who would like to give her the benefit of the doubt go “Sorry, this is just too bullshit for me to sign on to.”

  188. 188.

    Another Scott

    @JWR: Made me look…

    Along the way I found this nice Summary from the Congressional Research Service (6 page .PDF) as of August 29.

    The judge that approved the search warrant was Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhardt of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida.

    Judge Cannon is District Judge Aileen M. Cannon of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida.

    USCourts.gov – About Federal Judges:

    Magistrate Judges

    Magistrate judges are judicial officers of the U.S. district court appointed by the district judges of the court to handle a variety of judicial proceedings.

    They have authority to issue warrants, conduct preliminary proceedings in criminal cases, such as initial appearances and arraignments, and hear cases involving petty offenses committed on federal lands. In most districts, magistrate judges handle pretrial motions and hearings in civil and criminal cases. While most civil cases are tried by district judges, magistrate judges may also preside over civil trials if all parties consent.

    So, if there’s a federal trial, it will be before a District Judge, not a Magistrate Judge.

    I hope the lawyers chime in – I was under the impression that this case (is it even a case when TFG’s people haven’t even filed a formal “complaint”??) was Reinhardt’s and then Cannon came barging in. But it might eventually end up before her anyway.

    (Of course, the plain language of the applicable US Code says it has to go to a DC court, but that’s just words in a book, amirite??!)

    FWIW. Corrections welcome.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  189. 189.

    RaflW

    @MisterForkbeard: Well, the GOP is trying to bring several of those outmoded ways of thinking back, like: Should single women really have the right to vote? If they don’t have a husband supervising them, who knows what they might think!

  191. 191.

    Ken

    @Jeffro: the asylum seekers have launched a class action suit against him in Massachussetts.

    When the Florida legislature budgeted, what was it — something like 11 million dollars? — for immigrants, they probably didn’t intend that it all go to the first fifty people.

  195. 195.

    germy shoemangler

    COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — A conservative podcaster who embraces former President Donald Trump’s discredited claims of a stolen 2020 election is eligible to run for Ohio secretary of state this fall, the state’s high court ruled Tuesday.

    Terpeshore “Tore” Maras, who calls President Joe Biden “resident not president” and embraces aspects of the QAnon conspiracy in her “Tore Says” podcast, will appear on ballots as an independent.

    She faces Republican Secretary of State Frank LaRose and Democratic challenger Chelsea Clark.

    https://wnyt.com/us-news/court-election-denier-can-run-for-ohio-secretary-of-state/

  196. 196.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Anonymous At Work: Well, Joyce Vance White (who wrote the tweet) is a former US Attorney very well acquainted with what is needed to bring Fed indictment and get a conviction that can withstand appeal.  She talks about the high bar for DOJ prosecutions all the time.  I don’t think being told multiple things by multiple people gets a defendant off the hook if they were warned by counsel of illegality of an action.

  203. 203.

    zhena gogolia

    About a funeral – what a petty, uncharitable man.A Trump re-write of Luke,“But when you are invited, go and sit down in the best place, so that when he who invited you comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, LOCATION IS EVERYTHING.’ Then you will have glory in owning the losers.” pic.twitter.com/DnHJ5YqJyO— Peter Strzok (@petestrzok) September 20, 2022

  204. 204.

    Another Scott

    1/6 committee chairman Thompson says the panel’s next hearing will be the 28th at 1 p.m.

    He says this should be the final hearing unless something changes

    — Luke Broadwater☀️ (@lukebroadwater) September 20, 2022

    (via Angry_Staffer)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  205. 205.

    WaterGirl

    @Another Scott: i am surprised that there will be just one more hearing.  They have been publicly giving the impression that loads more people are coming forward.

    I wonder why they would just kind of stop now and do a single wrap-up hearing.

  209. 209.

    JWR

    Eww! Just came across NBC Nightly News, (early bird edition), just as Ron DeSantis was making weird mouth noises about his and Abbott’s Martha’s Vineyard stunt, and the odd squeaks coming out sounded a lot like Tucker Carlson’s equally odd squeaks. I’d hate to hear him, DeSantis, laugh.

  210. 210.

    ColoradoGuy

    About the camera: removing the infrared filter, which is usually bonded to the sensor (and can be removed by professionals) will still leave a functional color camera, but colors will look quite odd on some scenes due to increased IR response. IR reflectivity is unpredictable, and the three colors of the RGB sensor will not respond to IR equally. TL;DR, the modified camera will be great for IR work, but will not be suitable for general B/W or color work.

    Before signing on to the major systems … Sony, Nikon, Canon, and the minor ones … Fuji, Panasonic/Olympus … check out lens prices for a “standard” pro-quality zoom with a f2.8 aperture. That’s usually the most basic lens that can show the full quality of the sensor. Most “kit” lenses, with a few exceptions, never let you see how good the camera really is. And old film lenses, although filled with “character” and a distinct vintage look, have resolution far below modern digital sensors.

  212. 212.

    cain

    @Sean: haha – yes blowing the economy because they want to reduce the attorney general’s pay to something low. That will go down really really well.

  215. 215.

    cain

    @germy shoemangler: This is the only time where “the more republicans the better” running office dividing the votes is a good thing.

    You can also imagine that both will be yelling the SoS about stolen elections.

  216. 216.

    Another Scott

    @WaterGirl: I think they’re thinking that it’s important to get their report out well before election day.  That may have a much bigger impact than having more hearings.

    Just a guess though.

    Warning – Politico (from a week ago):

    Thompson, the only member to speak substantively after the gathering, indicated that the committee intends to hold another public hearing on Sept. 28, though lawmakers have not yet decided on the topic — or whether it’s the first of multiple hearings. When asked if the committee had interviewed everyone in Trump’s former cabinet, Thompson replied “no”; several members like former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo testified during the August recess.

    However, Thompson noted that the panel continued to bring in witnesses and just last week had “gotten significant information” from the Secret Service. “And we’re still getting it,” he added.

    It sounds like they’ll keep working with or without public hearings.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  217. 217.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Another Scott:

    I think they’re thinking that it’s important to get their report out well before election day.  That may have a much bigger impact than having more hearings.

    and get committee members, including Kamikaze Liz, out there hawking it

    (and I know who and what Liz Cheney is and has been– but she makes an effective presence on TV)

  219. 219.

    Steeplejack

    @ColoradoGuy:

    What focal range do you consider for a “standard pro-quality zoom” lens? I have a Sony A6000 that I inherited from a photographer friend and have thought about upgrading it.

  220. 220.

    WaterGirl

    @Ken: 11-dimensional chess

    If so, that would be a great PR – a good way to draw attention back to the Jan 6 hearings and get everyone on the edge of their seats.

    I don’t think that’s it, though

    There was talk of the J6 committee trying to bring in Pence and Trump.  I guess both of those were no gos.

  222. 222.

    C Stars

    @Jeffro:

    Just watched that press conference, having not allowed myself a whole lotta prior DeSantis exposure. He really is just patently a weaselly jackass, isn’t he? Like, that’s his appeal I guess?

  223. 223.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Steeplejack: The a6000 is a very good relatively small camera, but f2.8 zooms for it are limited in number and very expensive. There is a 16-55, IIRC, but it’s like $1400. Multiply by about 1.4 focal length to get 35mm full-frame equivalent, so that one is kind of similar to a standard 24-70 zoom.

  224. 224.

    J R in WV

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    …I know everyone is entitled to legal defense, but come on! And how do they think they’re ever going to get paid?

    They got $3,000,000 up front to represent Trump. They can spend that overnight and tell Trump to ante up another million bucks. If he doesn’t, they’re OK with that…

  227. 227.

    Ruckus

    @Brachiator:

    You have what he is saying correct, that is basically he can do whatever the hell he wants because he’s president (which of course he’s not) and no one can stop him. His fantasy world is that he is god and every single one of the rest of us can fuck right off. Of course it doesn’t take a genius to understand that he’s full of shit, it just takes someone to the left of Hitler or smarter than a telephone pole or not trying to scam the public. And there are a few humans in this country that are none of these things.

  228. 228.

    Sean

    @cain: not sure the GOP loons would be much concerned with the reality of tanking the economy. Also, given American voters and our deteriorating media, they’d probably blame Biden.

  229. 229.

    Steeplejack

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Thanks, that’s in line with what I thought. Haven’t done much photography in recent years and wanted to get a read on what is considered “pro quality” these days.

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